252: Is Luigi Mangione a Vigilante Hero or Murderer? Everything We Know

Summary

Pop Apologists – Episode 252: Is Luigi Mangione a Vigilante Hero or Murderer? Everything We Know
Release Date: December 11, 2024

In Episode 252 of "Pop Apologists," hosted by two sisters from PodcastOne, the focus shifts from personal anecdotes to a gripping and controversial case that has captured national attention: the murder of Brian Thompson by Luigi Mangione. This detailed summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and conclusions drawn by the hosts, providing a comprehensive overview for those who haven't tuned in.

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1. Personal Updates and Lighthearted Banter

Opening Remarks (00:05 – 04:22):
The episode opens with the hosts sharing personal updates about moving into a new apartment in New York City. Host A expresses excitement about no longer being a tourist, while Host B, alongside their sister Chandler, contributes humorous exchanges about Chandler's thoughtful welcome package, including homemade sourdough bread and peppermint Oreos.

• Notable Quote:
  Host A (02:06): "Chandler was like so excited for me and she came over and when I got upstairs because she, you know, got in without me basically randomly while I was checking out something downstairs or getting a package."

2. Host B’s Encounter with a Theft and Justice

Justice Story (04:30 – 08:18):
Host B recounts a personal experience witnessing a young man stealing at a local bazaar. This incident sparks a discussion about vigilante justice versus societal norms.

• Notable Quote:
  Host B (05:03): "I literally pointed my finger because I was like, I'm not going to let this guy go."

3. Reaction to the End of an Eras Tour

Eras Tour Conclusion (10:39 – 14:29):
The sisters delve into their disappointment over the abrupt end of Taylor Swift's Eras Tour without any major announcements or surprises. They speculate on Swift's exhaustion and the immense effort required to maintain such a demanding tour schedule.

• Notable Quote:
  Host A (11:13): "I personally was devastated. There was no announcement."

4. Main Discussion: The Luigi Mangione Case

a. Overview of the Murder (16:51 – 21:30):

The hosts introduce the central topic: the cold-blooded murder of Brian Thompson, CEO of UnitedHealth Group, allegedly by Luigi Mangione. They detail the circumstances of the shooting, including the lack of security around Thompson and the swift escape of Mangione.

• Notable Quote:
  Host B (17:34): "So that's a play on the phrase delay, deny, defend."

b. Luigi Mangione’s Background and Arrest (21:30 – 26:50):

Luigi Mangione, a 26-year-old from a wealthy Baltimore family and a Penn alumnus, presents an unexpected profile for a vigilante. The hosts discuss his affluent background, academic achievements, and recent remote work in Honolulu. They also highlight the evidence found during his arrest, including a 3D-printed pistol, suppressor, and a manifesto condemning UnitedHealthcare.

• Notable Quote:
  Host A (23:35): "And this guy was by all accounts, a real winner."

c. The Manifesto and Mangione’s Motivation (26:50 – 36:50):

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to analyzing Mangione's manifesto, titled "The Allopathic Complex and its Consequences." The document outlines his disdain for UnitedHealthcare, detailing his mother's debilitating back condition and the company's inadequate support. This personal tragedy fuels his perception of healthcare corporations as parasitic entities prioritizing profit over care.

• Notable Quote:
  Host B (35:56): "People are dying. Evil has become institutionalized."

d. Public Reaction and Social Media Frenzy (36:50 – 40:43):

The sisters explore the public's polarized response, noting that some view Mangione as a hero fighting against corrupt healthcare systems, while others condemn his violent actions. They discuss the memeification of Mangione's image online and the troubling trend of justifying violence against perceived corporate villains.

• Notable Quote:
  Host A (37:04): "The resonance of his evil actions... will make the slaying of Brian Thompson an era-defining crime."

e. Ethical Implications and Systemic Issues (40:43 – 43:05):

The conversation shifts to the broader implications of the case, questioning the effectiveness and humanity of the healthcare system. The hosts argue that while Mangione's motives may stem from genuine suffering, his actions are unequivocally wrong. They emphasize the need for systemic reform rather than individual acts of violence.

• Notable Quote:
  Host A (38:21): "You can't do an act of vigilante justice. You know, you shouldn't murder someone in order to bring about the change you want."

5. Secondary Topic: Jay Z’s Civil Lawsuit Allegations

Jay Z Accusations (43:05 – 46:00):
Towards the end of the episode, the hosts briefly touch upon another high-profile case involving Jay Z, who has been named in a civil lawsuit alleging the rape of a 13-year-old girl in 2000 alongside Sean "Diddy" Combs. They discuss Jay Z's public denial and his defensive stance against the allegations.

• Notable Quote:
  Host A (41:22): "I will not give you one red penny. His allegations are so heinous in nature that I implore you to file a criminal complaint, not a civil one."

6. Conclusion and Reflections

Final Thoughts (46:00 – 46:52):
The sisters conclude by reflecting on the severity of the topics discussed, emphasizing the need for serious conversation around systemic issues in healthcare and the ethical responsibilities of individuals. They acknowledge the heavy tone of the episode and express hope for meaningful change.

• Notable Quote:
  Host A (39:56): "Nothing is funny about this scenario."

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Key Takeaways

• Luigi Mangione's Profile: Contrary to typical profiles of individuals committing such acts, Mangione comes from a privileged background, highlighting that systemic issues can affect anyone.

• Healthcare System Critique: The episode underscores the flaws in the U.S. healthcare system, particularly the detrimental impact of insurance companies prioritizing profit over patient care.

• Public Perception: The murder has sparked a divisive conversation, with social media amplifying both sympathetic and condemning viewpoints toward Mangione.

• Ethical Boundaries: While acknowledging the systemic problems, the hosts firmly reject the notion that violence is a justified means of seeking justice or reform.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Host A (02:06): "Chandler was like so excited for me and she came over and when I got upstairs because she, you know, got in without me basically randomly while I was checking out something downstairs or getting a package."

• Host B (05:03): "I literally pointed my finger because I was like, I'm not going to let this guy go."

• Host A (11:13): "I personally was devastated. There was no announcement."

• Host B (17:34): "So that's a play on the phrase delay, deny, defend."

• Host A (23:35): "And this guy was by all accounts, a real winner."

• Host B (35:56): "People are dying. Evil has become institutionalized."

• Host A (37:04): "The resonance of his evil actions... will make the slaying of Brian Thompson an era-defining crime."

• Host A (38:21): "You can't do an act of vigilante justice. You know, you shouldn't murder someone in order to bring about the change you want."

• Host A (41:22): "I will not give you one red penny. His allegations are so heinous in nature that I implore you to file a criminal complaint, not a civil one."

• Host A (39:56): "Nothing is funny about this scenario."

---

Conclusion

Episode 252 of "Pop Apologists" offers a profound exploration of Luigi Mangione's actions, delving deep into the motivations rooted in systemic healthcare issues. The hosts navigate the complex interplay between personal anguish and societal failings, urging listeners to recognize the importance of addressing systemic problems without resorting to violence. Additionally, the brief foray into the Jay Z lawsuit underscores the podcast's commitment to tackling controversial and impactful topics in the realm of pop culture and beyond.

Transcript

[A]

Well, well, well.

[B]

Let me just start. Thank you for attempting. Well, well, well. Your voice has somehow gotten worse.

[A]

Well, that's why I stopped. Because I was just like, this sounds so bad. You need to be the one to do the well, well, well.

[B]

Yeah, it's okay. It's really not great.

[A]

It's not great. Everyone, I'm gonna do my best to try to provide some sort of like, vocal texture today instead of just like the hollowness that I feel, you know? I'm gonna work hard, though, to bring in that voice because we're here. We're here. We're recording. Okay.

[B]

We've got a lot to get into. A lot to discuss.

[A]

So much to get into. Obviously, this has been a huge week in the country. All right. In the world. The world is really watching the country these days.

[B]

So, so true.

[A]

So this week we're going to be talking about the cold blooded murder of Brian Thompson by allegedly Luigi Mangione.

[B]

So quick question. Are we gonna spend the the duration of the episode talking about Luigi?

[A]

We're gonna spend a huge chunk of it, but right now we're gonna chat first.

[B]

Okay, thank you. I was confused. I didn't know. I'm a little bit blind to today's episode.

[A]

Okay, just what our listeners want to know.

[B]

Well, I'm. Well, I'm blind to this subject a little bit more. I'm. I'm up to speed with the other subjects. I actually thought some of the biggest news was the Jay Z stuff.

[A]

We do need to answer, so we're.

[B]

Gonna get into that as well. Yeah, but let's, let's just quickly catch up. House. Not even housekeeping, but I guess friendship. Housekeeping.

[A]

How are you doing? Great. Last night was my first night in the new unit, in the new apartment. So happy. Loving being officially not a tourist in New York. No, I'm obsessed with the place. I can't wait to show everyone. Yesterday was just extremely chaotic. Stressful. Just unpacking and getting everything situated.

[B]

We had a lovely day together. You mention me or any.

[A]

I was going to say you were there, so it feels weird to tell you about it.

[B]

That's all you got to say is that I was there.

[A]

I mean, you guys, it was so cute. Chandler was like, I want to be there for the first day.

[B]

Make you cry.

[A]

I don't think that's going to happen. But I did find it to be super cute. Chandler was like so excited for me and she came over and when I got upstairs because she, you know, got in without me basically randomly while I was Checking out something downstairs or getting a package. Anyway, I walked in and there was a beautiful, like, little welcome package from her with a homemade baked loaf of bread, of sourdough bread, some gorgeous peppermint Oreos, and a beautiful, beautiful vase of flowers. So anyway, it was so, so nice. Thank you. Chandler, why are you talking like this?

[B]

That last little part made it feel like a less sincere thank you, truly. Why don't you clear your throat and say thank you with your chest? It's getting quieter every time.

[A]

Are we gonna make it through this episode?

[B]

We're gonna do our darndest.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'm concerned because you're gonna be leading a large section of it, but that's fine. Let me give you some vocal rest right now, which is something that never happens on this podcast. Lauren never has vocal rest. No wonder your voice is gone. Yes, everyone. I wanted to be there on Lauren's first day moving in. I really like, you know, move in days. I think it's, like, obviously, this one was very momentous. And, yes, I wanted to bring you something special. So I did make a loaf of Homema sourdough bread. Three ingredients. Okay, that's it. Doesn't it taste amazing, too? You were. Let's just quickly share. I guess you're back off of vocal rest. It's good.

[A]

So Chandler made me sourdough bread, and it was just so good this morning. It was delicious.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Incredible. Like, honestly, I want to learn how to do that.

[B]

You absolutely should. It's very easy. Anyway, yeah, it was really fun to be there yesterday and, like, see you unpack and help you unpack, and it's just going to be a great new chapter for us.

[A]

It is. It's going to be a really fun new chapter for the pod, for our sisterhood. And it. It was just really sweet, though. I wanted to say that you wanted to be there when, like, it was just a bunch of, like, movers and big boxes. Like, part of me wanted to be, like, come tomorrow when it's, like, all set up. But it was cute how you just know you wanted to be there.

[B]

I have this maternal yearning. Just another wonderful thing about me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No, but I wanted to have, like, the, you know, Gigi moving in, Bella enter her apartment experience. I wanted to help you set things up or give my opinions. That's a flame that burns within me.

[A]

Well, I hope you got that yesterday.

[B]

I absolutely did. So you're welcome. I don't know why I said you're welcome. Thank you. And you're welcome. Another flame that Burns within me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I had a small moment over the weekend that I kind of have, I don't know, mixed emotions about. On Sunday afternoon, I went to go to, like, the local bazaar. There's, like, a bazaar on the Upper west side. And, you know, there's thrifting things with vintage stuff. And I wanted to look and see if there were anything that I could get for the tablescape at our wedding. Okay. So anyway, that. That. That was the reason for me going. I'm there. I've probably been meandering for 10, 15 minutes, when all of a sudden. And it's like, booths. Outdoor booths. Okay. So it's a very crowded situation.

[A]

Okay. So you're looking through Vint Vintage.

[B]

Yeah, I'm just kind of going up.

[A]

And down the aisles, whatever unique stuff for the table.

[B]

Yeah. Just for, like, silver platters and stuff like that. Anyway, but that's not important. What's important is that out of the corner of my eye, I suddenly see, like, a scene happening, a scene unfolding where. Do you know how you just, like, know something's off? Like, something's happening? And it was literally five seconds where all of a sudden I see this kid, literally, I think he was, like, 17, rip something from a stall and run away.

[A]

Wait, what?

[B]

Yeah. So he literally grabbed something, and. Because I see him, like, rip it, like, to where, like, the table shook and were they, like.

[A]

Was it glued to the table?

[B]

I think, yeah. Or I think it was, like, in a box or something. Anyway, he had to, like, pry it off the table, and then he just starts running, and he runs right past me.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

And in that same moment, I see the people who he was just standing by say, he just stole that. Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I don't know what came over me.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

So he runs past me, and I just go, he just stole something.

[A]

Of course you did. You've always been a tattletale. This goes back to, like, our very first experiences together. I'm surprised you didn't tell on me yesterday during my move in, if I, like, did something wrong with the building, you know, like, oh, she has the wrong detergent in this type of dryer. I'm going to update washer.

[B]

I don't know what. I think there was a part of me was, fight or flight. Tell or not to tell. You love rules, and I love rules, and I love justice. And I was like. I literally pointed my finger because I was like, I'm not going to let this guy go.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then what's crazy is that so Obviously I'm like, he just stole something. You know, alerting the people where he's now running to say, hey, yeah, a thief is among you. Then the guy from the stand runs after him. And then they get in a fist fight and they're. They're like punching and swinging at each other and one's got him in a headlock. The craziest thing, though, is that there's like full security or like people in like, fluorescent jackets who are manning the entrance to the bazaar.

[A]

Oh, are they not stepping in at all?

[B]

They're not doing anything. They're not like police officers or anything. Anyway, I don't even know what happened, but there was like, they were like, fighting and then the kid got away again and he caught up to him again. And then they were fighting again. Anyway, I don't know what happened. I don't know if my, you know, me raising the alarm did anything, but I don't know. I have mixed emotions about this because I'm like. I don't know why I need to be like, he stole something. Send him to, like, to the gallows.

[A]

It's not very New Yorker of you.

[B]

No, exactly.

[A]

To be like, he's the thief. Like, you know that you don't get involved. You, you know, you're doing your own thing especially.

[B]

It was like, low, kind of low stakes. It wasn't like he was hurting somebody. It kind of felt like not woke of me.

[A]

Oh, interesting. Yeah. Because capitalism really is what steals everyone.

[B]

Something like that.

[A]

Everyone else's experiences.

[B]

I don't know. I just, like, after that moment happened, I was like, I feel kind of embarrassed. I left soon after. But, yeah, that was my justice story and.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, that is an incredible tale. Thank you for sharing. I am floored. You don't see that stuff like that very often. I mean, like, purveyor of those goods was, you know, he must have really liked whatever that man had taken.

[B]

I guess so. I think it was like a ring or something. But it didn't look like diamonds, per se, like gemstones or like turquoise. The other thing, what it made me think about is like, if I was in the 14th century, okay, like, I would be the person that's like, chop off their arm.

[A]

They start, oh, gosh, no, you would not.

[B]

I don't know. Maybe I would have. I just. I didn't like what that revealed about me. I had no mercy.

[A]

It is really interesting that you, especially in today's climate where all sorts of things happen all over the place and.

[B]

There'S Nuance with everything.

[A]

Yeah. And with how woke you are that you were all of a sudden so, so willing to put yourself on in the line of fire. Essentially.

[B]

I was, I was, I don't know.

[A]

The rule of law.

[B]

I really wanted to bring this to the podcast because I don't know what it means. I don't know if I want to know what it means. I don't know. Maybe it means nothing. And this was just a simple moment where I also wanted a little bit of the limelight. But anyway, I wanted to bring it up.

[A]

You might be an attention whore. That's potentially true. No, I don't think that's what was going on.

[B]

Thieves beware.

[A]

Yeah. Don't do it in front of Chandler. She will tell on you like she told on me.

[B]

I mean, I was a tattletale growing up.

[A]

So yeah, this the biggest.

[B]

Yeah, it's true. I feel absolved myself. When I tell you to start feeling.

[A]

Less guilt, period, and then you can save us all a lot of trouble.

[B]

Lauren, I have to tell you that when I was in London, I asked Ben if he could bring a bigger suitcase because I wanted to, you know, bring home some goodies with me. But when he got to London, he opened up his suitcase and you know what he'd stuffed it with?

[A]

Illegal items.

[B]

No. Clean, Simple Eats travel packs. Like he must have brought. At least he's gonna be here for five days. He must have brought 20 of them.

[A]

You know, when this man's packing, he.

[B]

Has the right priorities. Protein. No, absolutely. I was really impressed. I was actually kind of grateful because I have not been eating well and I was very happy to get my hands on some of that delicious protein. The travel packs are amazing, everyone. Clean, Simple Eats. We love it. Eating it, drinking it, and vibing it any way we can for years. I am personally obsessed with both their protein powders and their clear protein. We all know we're supposed to get.

[A]

1 gram of protein per pound of body weight.

[B]

And it's very difficult to do if you're not being focused and you're not actually intentionally trying to get in more protein. That's where Clean Simple Eats steps in. Highly recommend. It's clean, grass fed protein. Your body needs it. I would never even come close to hitting my protein goals if it weren't for Clean Simple Eats. Let me just say that they are single handedly helping me reach those goals. One scoop of the powder has 20 grams of protein. One can of the clear protein has 20 grams. It's perfect. Everyone go to cleansimpolites.com use code popapologists for 10% off. Cleansimpolites.com code popapologist for 10% off. Okay, the ERAs tour concluded.

[A]

It did.

[B]

It's done.

[A]

We need to talk about that before we get to the rest of the episode.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I personally was devastated. There was no announcement.

[B]

I know. And people are telling me that I need to give her grace. Cause she's probably tired, but I'm sorry, but she built this cage for us to live in.

[A]

Oh, do. Okay, that's interesting. You think that she kind of set us up to fail here.

[B]

Well, I just think that, like, of course people thought we were gonna get some huge announcement, especially after the book fumble. I don't know. It's just it. And I get. I hope she's tired. Like, if she's a human being, she's tired and she deserves all the rest. I just thought we were gonna get an announcement as well. And I'm kind of disappointed that we did it.

[A]

Oh, I think everyone's extre. Disappointed that we didn't. Especially when they have, like, cameras filming her the second night in Vancouver on stage, where it very much looks like. I mean, we've seen cameras filming her and Travis leaving the stadium. So we know there's documentary footage or there's some footage that would be used in a documentary. Maybe they're just doing an expanded version of the movie to feature ttpd. I personally just think it's so interesting that she didn't plan one surprise for the last show.

[B]

She's like, out of surprises.

[A]

Like, yes, there are surprise songs, but I would have thought that she would have done one just song randomly that left a surprise or just something or.

[B]

Like another surprise guest.

[A]

It just something.

[B]

Something. I think that everyone who thought they were going to get a little something extra on that night totally had every right to think that. And it's fine if she didn't announce a new album or whatever, but I think, yeah, like, there was nothing extra special about it.

[A]

Like, I kind of understand feeling a little disappointed.

[B]

Totally. I. Because I would rather go to the last last night than the second to last night. Because I would think there was going to be something special on the last night.

[A]

Oh, sure.

[B]

Well.

[A]

And I. I'm so glad I was sick because I honestly was, like, ready to risk my marriage and my financial future to go to the last show because I was just sure that was going to be something beyond once in a lifetime. So now I'm kind of, like, so glad I didn't. You know, I'm sure everyone had an amazing dime. It doesn't, like, negate your experience.

[B]

I mean, nothing special was announced at any of the shows that I went to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, and also, like, when I went to see her at MetLife, I thought she was gonna play Cornelia street, and I was sure she was going to. And then when she didn't, I was 10% disappointed in that moment. It didn't actually color my experience in the long term, but, yeah, in the moment, I was like, oh, womp, womp.

[A]

The fact that there was no surprise just really makes me think that she's exhausted and that she's, like, just finishing the tour was the most she could do.

[B]

Of course. Yeah. No, I think 100%, because, you know, following whatever announcement she potentially could have made, there was going to be another then cycle of things. And maybe she really does just want to let the dust settle from, you know, the fairy dust. Because it has been so incredible. And I don't want this to, like, undercut anything. How special the last two years have been. I mean, it is crazy. Two years.

[A]

It's a long time.

[B]

It's a long time.

[A]

It's a long time. And it's really sad, I think, for a lot of us, because now we're just like, okay, we're going back to the dark ages. Are we going back to the Jo adjacent times when we never saw her?

[B]

No. Because Travis will have things. Donna's got her movies.

[A]

Yeah, it's true.

[B]

Like, we're gonna be seeing them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, it is the end of an era.

[B]

It is. It is.

[A]

And the start of an age.

[B]

And I think that the fact that she kept the energy alive for so long really didn't cancel any shows out of tiredness.

[A]

Oh, thank you for bringing that up. I thought about that on the train here. Like, it's a miracle she didn't have to cancel any shows. Like, it's not even, like, tiredness. Like, even if I was Taylor Swift right now, if I had this voice, it's not like I could perform eras tour, right?

[B]

Absolutely not.

[A]

God had his hands in her being able to do all the shows because the fact that she never even just got a cold, that took her.

[B]

I know. I'm sure she got a cold. She got a cold. She just pushed through.

[A]

You can't push through.

[B]

Okay, maybe she didn't get, like, laryngitis or something.

[A]

I don't have laryngitis. I have a cold.

[B]

I feel like they. They have remedies and they've got, like, Dr. Feel Good or something. I feel like celebrities can get, like, a shot of something crazy, some crazy vitamin cocktail, and be okay for a couple hours.

[A]

I need someone super rich in the audience to verif if you guys have.

[B]

But. But that is true. I mean, she could have gotten, like.

[A]

Strep or something, and it just would have been impossible for her to perform.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Well, anyway, speaking of care for the ill, let's take a segue.

[B]

It's so funny. I saw a headline today that was like, bill Belichick, whatever, like, considers UNC job. And I'm like, wait, he's gonna go be the new CEO of uhc? But then I was like, no, unc.

[A]

Anyway, what is the uncle?

[B]

I think it's a football team.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

But it's just.

[A]

That was a hilarious little tale.

[B]

Just little side story, but I feel I was like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe they're already ready to replace the CEO who just got killed with Bill Belichick. Belichick.

[A]

You know, you can leave that and.

[B]

You can keep it out, whatever.

[A]

UnitedHealthcare, clearly they're after value for their shareholders. The bottom line, apparently, they deny double what the normal rate is in health care. So anyway, everyone, obviously, we have, of course, now moved on.

[B]

Look, let's just say really quick. We tried to make the turn from Taylor Swift to this Luigi alleged killer a couple of times, and it's a tough segue for us. So let's just now all hold hands together and move on to, you know, what we know about Luigi Mangione, the person of interest in Brian Thompson's murder.

[A]

So I personally have been on quite a journey with.

[B]

Have you?

[A]

I have. With.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I have been fascinated with this story ever since it came out. I haven't been able to stop paying attention to it first. It's just so terrifying that someone can just literally murder someone on the streets of the city. By the way, I just moved to. Okay, and then. I'm sorry, skedaddle away. Yeah, that was very alarming to me.

[B]

It's alarming.

[A]

You would think that there's enough ring cameras around this city and enough people. It's not like you can just get in a getaway car and speed out of town.

[B]

Getaway car. That could have been a good segue.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

No, it's totally alarming. I mean, I think the footage of it is really eerie. The woman who's, like, outside, I don't know if she's taking a smoke break or she's just, like, standing outside. And all of a sudden she, like, see is right there seeing what's happening. Then she runs away. I mean, it's a 10 second video that is so chilling.

[A]

It is absolutely terrifying. All right, Chen, so let's first, let's lead everyone through the facts of the case.

[B]

Okay, so Brian Thompson was the CEO of the health insurance division of the $550 billion company UnitedHealth Group. And he was in New York City on Wednesday for an investor meeting. He was shot from behind just before 7am on December 4th outside of the New York Hilton Midtown. He was hit in the back and the right calf, after which the suspect fled on foot and on an electric bike. A video of the shooting showed the suspect walk out behind Thompson, who did not have a security detail before firing multiple times.

[A]

Officers found three 9 millimeter rounds at the scene in bullet casings that had the words deny, defend, and depose on them, which echo a phrase commonly used to criticize tactics insurance companies use to reject claims.

[B]

So that's a play on the phrase delay, deny, defender, which is the rallying cry of people who are critical of insurance companies. So it's delay, deny, defend. Okay. But on the bullet casings, they changed the last word to depose, which means to, like, swiftly get rid of somebody.

[A]

Oh, really? Is that what depose means?

[B]

Well, there's two meanings. There's obviously the law meaning of, you know, being questioned. And then, you know, depose can also be defined as to remove from office suddenly and forcefully.

[A]

Really?

[B]

So that's what I thought it was. I thought the depose was like the kind of like, zinger, if you will, about this act.

[A]

That's got to be what he intended it to mean then.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, you think you're going to delay and deny our claims.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

And our coverage. And then you think you're going to defend yourself. And I'm actually going to depose of you.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Well, yeah, we're going to get to it. But the manifesto sheds a lot of light on this person's state of mind, on Luigi's state of mind. So the victim, Brian Thompson, was CEO of United Health Group, as we said, and he had two sons. The NYPD and the FBI both offered rewards for the arrest of the suspect. 10 grand from the NYPD and 50 grand from the FBI. I think that what was interesting and kind of shocking to everyone was how the Internet, you know, before it became a thing that he was hot. Yeah, before that was something that was a big part of the conversation. The people were still cheering on this act of violence.

[B]

Oh, yeah. It was like this guy had it coming.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

It's like one of the most hated CEOs C suite people. And, you know, this is the type of person who has it coming for them.

[A]

Well, and I think that UnitedHealth Group, if they really have 2x the average rate of denials of other companies, it makes it even more blatant what this was all about.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know.

[B]

Right. There's clearly a pattern with this particular company. And I think. I don't want to be speak out of my depth here because I don't know a lot about this subject, but I just, you know, obviously healthcare is a broken thing in the United States and is a broken system and people have a lot of discontentment with it and feel like the healthcare companies just take advantage of them.

[A]

I think that the tricky thing is if you've never experienced what it's like to not be able to afford your medical care and have a health insurance company that you've paid faithfully monthly, essentially like denying you coverage, which you and I both have been lucky enough to be healthy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The medical care, we've never.

[B]

We've never experienced, I would say, any type of extreme health issues. Yeah. And I think no extreme situations with health care companies. I will say, though, I do know what it's like after working in a couple different corporate jobs to have baseline insurance and then what it's like to have great insurance and how it feels super arbitrary what you get, like depending on the job you work at, your company provides you with health insurance. Right. And I am fortunate enough to have great health insurance now with my current job. With my previous job, it was not very good at all. And I was paying through the nose for things I shouldn't have to pay through the nose for if money is coming out of my already very low paycheck. I think that was the really shitty part is that I was, you know, working at a job where I was paid very little and my health insurance was terrible.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so it was just like, wow. Like, I just feel like the rich get richer and the poorer get poorer.

[A]

Right. And I think that is just one obvious. That's a very real story. But it's like such a small. Like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Compared to the people that. And I'm not trying to do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Thing. But I. I think that it's important to be aware that like the people who are so sick, they don't have a totally.

[B]

I'm not trying to say that like, oh, I know what this experience is. Like, I'm just saying, like, I have seen in small ways in my own small experience how health insurance can, like, make or break you financially.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And also we, we know people who had cancer and who racked up insane medical bills from, you know, it's just, it feels like you can really get kicked while you're down thanks to insurance companies, even though you pay them faithfully month after month.

[A]

Right. And it's very interesting that we're the richest country in the world and we have this broken system.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Anyway, it doesn't make any sense.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So back to this killing. So after the murder in cold blood, the rumor was that he kind of like disappeared into Central park and they just couldn't find him. Five days later, he was recognized 250 miles away in Pennsylvania in a McDonald's by a customer who recognized him from all the media showing his photo. Kind of like very faint photo we had.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think that actually that photo was from him checking into a hostel.

[B]

And also that photo was everywhere. Had been memeified. It was not just like, like, I think it's, it's worth noting that this wasn't obviously it was like, you know, a security camera still, but it was everywhere.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, I could probably do a sketch from memory of this guy.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Just from all the memes I saw.

[A]

Yeah. Well, and I think that it, it got memeified because he looked really cute in the photo. That's just like wildfire that he was hot. Okay, so police arrived to the McDonald's and found that Luigi had multiple fraudulent ideas on him. A US Passport, a firearm, and a suppressor similar to what was used in the murder. And a handwritten document that speaks to both his motivation and his mindset. So according to the New York Times, the manifesto found on Luigi Mangione mentions UnitedHealthcare by name, noting the size of the company and how much money it makes. According to a senior law enforcement official who saw the document, the manifesto also broadly condemns healthcare companies for placing profits over care. So a little bit about this 26 year old. He's from a wealthy Baltimore family and attended high school at the Gilman School in Baltimore, where tuition is nearly 40 grand a year. He was an athlete and also class valedictorian. He attended Penn for bachelor's and his master's degree. So what's interesting, I think, in captivating everyone so much is that this is a guy who does not really fit the bill for what you would expect usually, you know, like the Unabomber and like the they're like outcasts. They're total outcasts. Exactly. And losers. And this guy was by all accounts, a real winner.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He lived and worked in Honolulu, where he worked remotely as an engineer for True Car and lived in a co living community. So, like a.

[B]

What are those called? I think it's like a commune, right?

[A]

I don't. Yeah, I mean, I don't have any details that it was a community.

[B]

I can get into the details of his arrest.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Officers found a 3D printed pistol and a 3D printed silencer in his backpack, consistent with the firearm used in the shooting of Brian Thompson. First of all, that is really scary to me that the murder Robin was potentially 3D printed. There was also a three page written manifesto, and the police said, quote, it does seem that he has some ill will towards corporate America, end quote. Police have not named a formal motive in the killing of Thompson in the manifesto, though Luigi allegedly admitted to working alone, stating, quote, to the feds. I'll keep this short because I do respect what you do for our country. To save you a lengthy investigation, I state plainly that I wasn't working with anyone. The note then added, I do apologize for any strife or traumas, but it had to be done. Frankly, these parasites simply had it coming.

[A]

So one interesting thing about Luigi is that he had a very serious back injury. So Luigi's friends in Hawaii told various news outlets that he was suffering from debilitating back pain. Luigi left Hawaii to get back surgery last year since his spine was misaligned and said his lower vertebrae were almost a half inch off. And I think it pinched a nerve. Luigi had confided to close friends about not being able to date people because being physically intimate, quote, with his back condition wasn't possible. Okay, so Chrissy, who helps on the podcast, messaged me this morning about this connection. Okay. About this back pain that Luigi.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And she shared that she thinks that. Well, basically, let's just hear what she has to say. Also, you'll probably have some insight because what I'm reading, this guy, he had.

[B]

A back injury and then had kind of a botched surgery, and his quality of life was really not that great.

[A]

Like, one of the articles said that.

[B]

He couldn't date because, like, you know, he wasn't able to hook up with anybody because physically his back hurt too much. And I know Kagan had some pretty debilitating back stuff, so you could probably.

[A]

Shed some light on that.

[B]

I had the same thought.

[A]

It's so. It was just so funny. Cause I'm Like, Chrissy, you're so right. I need to ask Hagan what insight he has into the state of Luigi.

[B]

I mean, I'm with Chrissy on this one because I ask, because I. Thank God. I've never had a slipped disc or back nerve in, you know, pain, but I know it can be debilitating. Is it impossible to have sex?

[A]

That's a great question.

[B]

So Kagan. Can you call him?

[A]

Kagan's back pain is not nearly that bad to where it's, you know, you.

[B]

Just have to be on top all the time.

[A]

I just thought that would bring a moment of levity, and it sure did.

[B]

Yeah. Well, I, Chrissy, in my mind, were on the exact same page because I was like, oh, Kagan can speak to this because I know he has back pain.

[A]

Yes. I think that back pain obviously ranges in how debilitating it is. And it's pain level.

[B]

It's a monolith.

[A]

Anyway, I just thought that was, like, very funny. Okay. So Luigi had withdrawn from his family and friends before this incident for a matter of months. And there was a clue on his goodreads that, you know, his state of mind was shifting. He actually left a review for the Unabomber's book.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And this review said, it's easy to quickly and thoughtlessly write this off as the manifesto of a lunatic in order to avoid facing some of the uncomfortable problems it identifies, but it's simply impossible to ignore how prescient many of his predictions about modern society turned out to be. The review also quoted another person's take about how violence is necessary to survive. Okay. So the public response to this murder has obviously been outrageous, with a lot of people really coming to his defense. Okay. The photos of him that have emerged now that he's been identified, he really is gorgeous.

[B]

He's like the Internet's crush, I would say, right now.

[A]

Menendez brothers, step aside. He's looking good. Okay. So some of the comments are that I saw on TikTok was he's young and smart. Not ruin his very promising future over this.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Because he's like, you know, to Pen is obviously very accomplished.

[B]

I think, too. It sounds like he comes from a wealthy family.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is very interesting to me.

[A]

Someone put. Put me at the top of the list for his conjugal visage. How much is his bail set for? I got him. Luigi is not guilty. He was with me all last week. So there's a bunch of funny TikToks. People are like, actually, I never have done it. I was with him. And then the only time he left my side was to go feed the homeless.

[B]

I'm curious, though.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Was he trying to not get caught? Like, I want to unpack his being arrested and especially all the things that were on his person when he was arrested. You'd think if you didn't want to get caught.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And if you were, you know, hoping that you could deny the crime, if you did get caught, you would get rid of all that stuff.

[A]

Well, it's such a good point. And I was listening to a podcast this morning that was kind of taking a more conspiratorial route, and they were like, there's just no way any of this adds up. And I think what their thesis is essentially, because of course, the conspiracy theorists are already, like, they always have an idea for how this was set up actually by the government so that we can take away gun rights.

[B]

Right. So they were saying it doesn't add up that he had all that on him.

[A]

Well, they were just saying, like, it makes no sense. So this guy figured out where Brian Thompson was going to be. Obviously, like, was a very smart, accomplished person. And then he didn't know to just. To get rid of all the evidence.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

To, like, get rid of the we.

[B]

Dumpsters between here and, you know, wherever he was in Pennsylvania.

[A]

Exactly. So a lot of people were very. Are very suspicious of this and think that none of this makes any sense. Also, the fact that he would go to a McDonald's, you know, does it make any sense that he would leave some paper trail? You would think that you would just go into hiding. Also, I listened to the police announcement when they apprehended him, and it was just so funny because they were like, so self congratulatory. They're like the NYPD and the police department, you know, of this Pennsylvania town worked in to, like, apprehend this murder. And it's like, I'm so sorry. No. Like a McDonald's employee and customer figured out where he was. Like, not the nypd, like, not any police.

[B]

Right, right. Well, and on the podcast that I was listening to, basically they said that sometimes the police selectively only release certain details so that the person can kind of like, settle into thinking that they kind of got away with it. Like, for example, saying, we're looking for them, but they might actually have an idea of where they are.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In a small radius. But they want that person to act normally or to get comfortable and make a mistake. Like, go to McDonald's.

[A]

Were you listening to the NYPD's podcast. It sounds like a very pred podcast.

[B]

What am I supposed to say to that?

[A]

No, I'm actually. Chandler just motioned to her ear like she was, like, getting. You know, like someone was telling her what to say. For those listening at home not watching the video, I curtsy to police officers. I thank them for their courage. I don't love the fact that it seems like this guy just escaped into the wild.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

Well, had to rely on a McDonald's employee and customer to find him, so I hope you're correct.

[B]

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I mean, at the end of the day, it came from a tip from a civilian person. You know, it wasn't like they apprehended him at a McDonald's where they'd been tracking him.

[A]

Right. Yeah, exactly. So now I think that we should get to his manifesto, because I think it's very interesting to hear what he had to say. This manifesto is gripping to me.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's so interesting. And I asked our producer. I was like, is it. Are we gonna get in trouble if we read this? And he was like, you should read it. Okay, so this is what it says. The title is the Allopathic Complex and its Consequences. Do you know what allopathic?

[B]

I don't.

[A]

Let's just look that up really quick. Allopathic medicine is a medical practice that uses conventional treatments to treat diseases and symptoms. Okay.

[B]

So I think that's like west Western medicine.

[A]

Yeah. So this is what Luigi Mangione allegedly wrote in what was apprehended. The second amendment means, I am my own chief executive and commander in chief of my own military. I author my own act of self defense in response to a hostile entity making war on me and my family.

[B]

They diagnosed my mother with severe neuropathy when she was 41 years old. She said it started 10 years before that with burning sensations in her feet and occasional sharp, stabbing pains. At first, the pain would last a few moments, then fade to tingling, then numbness, then fade to nothing a few days later. First time the pain came, she ignored it. Then it came a couple times a year, and she ignored it. Then every couple months, then a couple times a month, then a couple times a week. At that point, by the time the tingling faded to numbness, the pain would start and the discomfort was constant. At that point, even going from the couch to the kitchen to make her own lunch became a major endeavor.

[A]

The first doctor said it was psychosomatic. Nothing was wrong. She needed to relax de stress, sleep more. The second doctor said it was a compressed nerve in her spine. She needed back surgery. It would cost $180,000. Recovery would be 6 months minimum before walking again. 12 months for full potential recovery. And she would lift more than 10 pounds of weight again. The third doctor performed a nerve conduction study, electromography, MRI and blood tests. Each test cost $800 to $1,200. She hit the $6,000 deductible of her United Health Care plan in October. Then the doctor went on vacation and my mother wasn't able to resume tests until January, when her deductible reset. The test showed severe neuropathy. The $180,000 surgery would have no effect.

[B]

By now, the pain was so bad she couldn't exercise, which compounded the weight gain from the slowed metabolic rate and hormonal shift. And it barely helped the pain and made her so fatigued she would go an entire day without getting out of bed. Then corticosteroids, which didn't even work. The pain was so bad I would hear my mother wake up in the night screaming in pain. I would run into her room asking if she's okay. Eventually, I stopped getting up. She'd yell out anguish, shrieks of wordless pain, or the word stretched and distended to its limits. I turn over and go back to sleep. All of this while they bled us dry with follow up appointment after follow up appointment, specialist consultations and more image scans. Each appointment was promised to be fully covered until the insurance claims were delayed and denied. Allopathic medicine did nothing to help my mother suffering. Yet it is the foundation of our entire society. My mother told me that on a good day, the nerve pain was like her legs were immersed in ice water. On a bad day, it felt like her legs were clamped in a machine shop vice, screwed down to where the crank stopped turning, then crushed further until her ankle bones sprintered and cracked to accommodate the tightening clamp. She had more bad days than good.

[A]

My mother crawled to the bathroom on her hands and knees. I slept in the living room to create more distance from her cries in the night. I still woke up and still went back to sleep. Back then, I thought there was nothing I could do. The high copays made consistent treatment impossible. New treatments were denied as not medically necessary. Old treatments didn't work and still put us out for thousands of dollars. United Healthcare limited specialist consultations to twice a year. Then they refused to cover advanced imaging, which the specialists required for an appointment. Prior authorizations took weeks, then months. United Healthcare constantly changed their claim filing procedure. They said my mother's doctor needed to fax his notes. Then United Healthcare said they did not save fax patient correspondence and required a hard copy of the doctor's type notes to be mailed. Then they said they never received the notes. They were unable to approve the claim until they had received and filed the notes. They promised coverage and they broke their word to my mother. With every delay, my anger surged. With every denial, I wanted to throw the doctor through the glass wall of their hospital waiting room. But it wasn't them. It wasn't the doctors, it wasn' the receptionist, administrators, pharmacists, imaging technicians, or anyone we ever met. It was United Healthcare.

[B]

People are dying. Evil has become institutionalized. Corporations make billions of dollars off the pain, suffering, death and anguish cries in the night of millions of Americans. We entered into an agreement for healthcare with a legally binding contract that promised care commensurate with our insurance payments and medical needs. Then UnitedHealthcare changes the rules to suit their own profits. They think. They make their rules and think that because it's legal that no one can punish them. They think there's no one out there who will stop them. Now my own chronic back pain wakes me in the night screaming in pain. I sought out another type of healing that showed me the real antidote to what ails us. I bide my time, saving the last of my strength to strike my final blows. All extractors must be forced to swallow the bitter pain they deal out to millions. As our own chief executives, it's our obligation to make our own lives better. First and foremost, we must seek to improve our own circumstances and defend ourselves. As we do so, our actions have ripple effects that can improve the lives of others.

[A]

Rules exist between two individuals and a network that covers the entire earth. Some of these rules are written down. Some of these rules emerge from natural respect between two individuals. Some of these rules are defined in physical laws like the properties of gravity, magnetism, or the potential energy stored in the convocable bonds of potassium nitrate. No single document better encapsulates the belief that all people are equal in fundamental worth and moral status and the frameworks for fostering collective well being within the U.S. constitution. Writing a rule down makes it into a law. I don't give a fuck about the law. Laws mean nothing. What does matter is following the guidance of our own logic and what we learn from those before us to maximize our own well being, which will then maximize the well being of our loved ones and community. That's where United Healthcare went wrong. They violated their contract with my mother with me and the tens of millions of other Americans. This threat to my own life, my family's health, and the health of our country's people requires me to respond with an act of war.

[B]

And was long.

[A]

Sorry, that was long. I wanted to read that because I think that it's like very, very gripping to hear that experience. And. Okay, so I'm actually gonna. I have one more quote. This is very brief though. It's by Tina Brown.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So Tina Brown just wrote a substack article about this. I think this is very apt. She says the resonance of his evil actions, the sinister brilliance of his inscribed bullet casings, and the shocking way a middle aged father of two's brutal has unleashed a social media fury not at his murderer, but at the health insurance industry will, I suspect, make the slaying of Brian Thompson an era defining crime. The viral ugliness of the response on social media is just a taste of what is boiling in the hearts of countless Americans ground down by the cost of health care and the rejection of their claims. Anyway, I think it's just so heavy and it honestly kind of reminds me when there was all of the violence after George Floyd.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There was a lot of people like defending that violence and saying sometimes, like, peace doesn't bring about the needed change. Essentially.

[B]

Yeah. I think that this is a cause. And when I say cause, I mean taking down insurance companies that do prey on people who expect care from them and who do like choose profits over care. I think that this is a cause that a lot of people feel like is justified.

[A]

Yeah. I think that the truth is that both are wrong.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, you can't do an act of vigilante justice. You know, you shouldn't murder someone in order to bring about the change you want. But at the same time, like, these health insurance companies are completely evil and corrupt. And someone wrote two things can be wrong at the same time. The health insurance industry and murderer. So let's focus on what's improvable. The 31% claim denial rate of UnitedHealthcare double the average. And the insider trading at the company.

[B]

Yeah, 100% agree. I said something to Ben about this the other night because I don't know, I'm not gonna post like hard eyes over this guy's photo.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I think that's gross.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think he, at the end of the day, he killed someone in cold blood.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that is something that is. That is wrong. That is wrong to me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But a lot of people are very, very upset and have been Very wronged by insurance companies. And so I do hope that things improve.

[A]

Yeah. And it's like, I'm so with you. I'm not gonna, like, take part in, like, the ghoulish applause for this person.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But at the same time, like, you can't invalidate just how horrific the suffering is. This act came from a place of real suffering, you know, and some people actually feel like their suffering was heard potentially for the first time. I mean, the gravity, you know, of what they have gone through is potentially reverberating across this industry. I think Tina's right, that this feeling, and this is obviously like so serious compared to what we normally talk about. And Scott, our producer, was like, you should definitely talk about this because it's like very pop culture Y with the way this is being memeified across the Internet, it feels almost impossible to really talk about this in a comical way because it's really not funny.

[B]

Yeah. Nothing is funny about this scenario. To me.

[A]

No part of it is funny. And so I guess, like, you know, a serious topic requires serious conversation. But I think that this sentiment and this tone isn't just being felt by people who are victims of the healthcare industry. This, like, discontent is what happens when this stratification of wealth and, you know, people with resources and people without resources, when it just gets bigger and bigger.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Resentment festers and people become capable of things they never probably would have thought they would be capable of, honestly, in a way where like this guy, the CEO, in his brain, he probably didn't think he was a bad guy. His family probably didn't think he was a bad guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Even though his company was doing evil things.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

And hurting people. So I think that it's just. Yeah. It's very, very interesting.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And sorry, everyone, the tone of today's podcast episode is just much more heavy and serious than normal. But that's just really the content and what's going on. In other very serious news, Jay Z has been accused in a civil lawsuit of raping a 13 year old girl in 2000 along with Sean Diddy Combs.

[B]

So this is that case where there was another big celebrity. Yeah. So, like, I think that's important to clarify that. You know, there was talk that it was Diddy and then this other a Lister celebrity and then a female in the room.

[A]

The rumor was that it was that it was Jay Z. Yeah.

[B]

So now that person, Jay Z has been named.

[A]

He has been formally named in the lawsuit. So Jay Z has fired back.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he wrote that this is essentially, you know, I mean, he posted a screenshot of a Word document on his Instagram and he calls this. Let me just read a little bit. He says, my lawyer received a blackmail letter called a demand letter from a lawyer named Tony Busby. What he had calculated was the nature of these allegations and the public scrutiny would make me want to settle. No, sir, it had the opposite effect. It made me want to expose you for the fraud you are in a very public fashion. So, no, I will not give you one red penny. His allegations are so heinous in nature that I implore you to file a criminal complaint, not a civil one. Whomever would commit such a crime against a minor should be locked away. Would you not agree these alleged victims would deserve real justice if that were the case? So he essentially says that his heart only breaks for his family, who he has to now explain what's going on to, but that he's completely falsely accused.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that this is a cash grab.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah. I think that this statement is very interesting. Cause it really sounds like, you know, he just literally crafted it and posted it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think that it's interesting that they were also out on the red carpet last night or the night before. Like, they're putting on a united front.

[A]

It seems like an interesting PR move to immediately, like, have him and Beyonce and Tina Knowles and their daughter on the red carpet seen in public. Clearly. I think the message is, we're not hiding from anything. We're going out about our business. That's normal. We have nothing to hide. I mean, I don't want to be like, I believe this.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But it just feels crazy.

[B]

Yeah. I have no idea how to believe or what to believe. But I. I saw the elevator footage.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like, I just think that, like, you don't physically attack your brother in law unless he's like, a bad dude.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And where, while your sister is standing by, some people are like, that's a double standard. Solange is praised for hitting him or whatever. And just because someone's unfaithful doesn't mean they're a rapist. But I don't. I don't think Jay Z's a great guy.

[A]

I completely agree with you. And I also think that there's not a chance in hell that he was just unaware that all this stuff went on. And Diddy somehow shielded one of his, like, best buds from all of this. Kept it a secret. Okay, so clearly Jay Z knew what was going on.

[B]

Right.

[A]

He knew what Diddy was getting up to in My opinion. Allegedly. You know, just my opinion.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he just, you know, sat by, continued to be friends with a rapist, you know, a child molester. A child rapist.

[B]

A child. Yeah.

[A]

I'm sorry, what?

[B]

A lot of people in Hollywood are reconciling with this, and I just think there needs to be a reckoning for all. Like, you either need to be, like, fully against Diddy or you're called into question. Right. But.

[A]

And I will say, though, there's like, there's a difference between the people who were at his white party every year. Like, I'm guessing Ellen was not invited to the freak offs. You know what I mean? Like, I think that there's probably.

[B]

Yeah, I'm sure there's levels to what you knew about Diddy. But then I also think there's like, it wasn't Ashton Kutcher who was like, there's stuff I can't even talk about.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think Hollywood is. I've said this before. I think Hollywood, it's a small town.

[A]

Yeah. Right.

[B]

People know stuff about each other. You know who the weirdos are.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so it's like, unless you and people were probably too afraid to ever be publicly against Diddy or whatever. But now I just think, like, I wonder if Jay Z's going to condemn Diddy. Maybe he has. I don't know. I'm not sure. But I think that Jay Z is questionable at best. Questionable.

[A]

Yeah. It does strain credulity that he would be such good friends with this person.

[B]

Yeah. Anyone who was such good friends with this person.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't want to be friends with anyone who was. Who is good friends with a child molester or rapist.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I don't know anybody like that. But I can't even imagine if that was like loosely in circles that I ran with.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

And somehow it was like, yeah, we're just kind of all chill with it. We all look the other way. What. What world are you living in where it's so untouchable and you are, you know, you're so far away from what's right and what's wrong that you just live like that.

[A]

Well, and people are now calling into question the timeline of him and Beyonce because he met Beyonce when she was underage.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And, you know, there were official reports that they didn't start dating until she was 18. But it's murky.

[B]

Also, I just want to say another thing. He obviously is gonna bring up that blue Ivy by saying, we have a daughter whose friends are gonna surely ask her about this. Okay. I think people always do the I'm a father of a daughter thing, so how could I ever be capable of such a thing? And it's like this person on Reddit was like, it never ceases to amaze me. Why do some men only have empathy for women once they reproduce one?

[A]

Yeah. It just is interesting because it does. Like, I feel like the experience of being a woman is honestly feeling like men don't actually have that much empathy for women.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so it's almost like that is a valid thing to them because they're like, wait, I actually didn't really care until I had a daughter. And then I.

[B]

No, I think it is valid for them, but it's just like, what?

[A]

But. I know, but that doesn't make any sense.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, we'll see what happens. A question I have is about why there can't be criminal filings. Like, because. Why it's only civil. Is that because of statute limitations?

[A]

Probably Statute of limitations.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I think that this person has. Has every right to have been scared for the last 25 years about, you know, literally the eight, number one, a list couple. Essentially gods in the celebrity world.

[A]

Right? Yeah.

[B]

But with all of that, before we get struck down.

[A]

Yeah. We should probably sign off.

[B]

Let's sign off.

[A]

Thank you guys so much for listening. Apologies for my voice. Really appreciate anyone who's made it to the end. And we'll be back on Friday on Patreon or Elites premium episode on Apple subscribers as well. Love you guys.

[B]

Bye.