262: Jenny Slate Enters the Blake Lively Vortex ft. Kate Kennedy

Summary

Podcast Summary: Pop Apologists - Episode 262: Jenny Slate Enters the Blake Lively Vortex ft. Kate Kennedy

Release Date: February 26, 2025
Guests: Kate Kennedy from the "Be There in 5" podcast
Hosts: Lauren and Chandler

---

Introduction

In Episode 262 of Pop Apologists, hosts Lauren and Chandler are joined by Kate Kennedy from the "Be There in 5" podcast. The trio delves into a myriad of topics ranging from celebrity dynamics, religious influences in Hollywood, to the intricacies of modern celebrity culture.

---

Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni Series Update

Lauren and Chandler discuss their ongoing multi-part series on Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni, currently at part seven. They address subscriber concerns regarding the omission of Jenny Slate's HR complaint about Justin Baldoni.

Lauren:
"[...] someone says, I have unsubscribed as a subscriber because you did not address Jenny Slate with her complaint."
(00:32)

Chandler:
"Didn't we though?"
(02:57)

The hosts clarify that while they did touch upon the apartment issue in previous episodes, they had to omit the core of Jenny Slate's complaint due to time constraints. They plan to address it comprehensively in upcoming episodes to retain their subscriber base.

---

Jenny Slate's HR Complaint and Religious Influences

The conversation pivots to Jenny Slate's HR complaint against Justin Baldoni, highlighting his references to the sanctity of motherhood during their professional interactions, which Slate found invasive.

Lauren:
"She complained because Jamie Heath went into some long soliloquy about the sanctity of motherhood."
(04:07)

Chandler:
"I thought it was going to be like the apartment was too close to where Jamie Heath was staying."
(04:18)

Kate Kennedy:
"This is part of the Baha'I faith influence, where gender equality is proclaimed but institutional governance remains male-dominated."
(05:18)

Kate delves into how the Baha'I faith, while advocating for gender equality, still exhibits traits of benevolent sexism, subtly subjugating women despite outward appearances of empowerment. This duality may have contributed to the discomfort experienced by Jenny Slate.

---

Discussion on Ballerina Farm and Nara Smith

Lauren brings up Ballerina Farm and criticizes Hannah (presumably a figure associated with the farm) for potentially glamorizing subjugation, whether knowingly or inadvertently.

Lauren:
"She should go to Greece. [...] I hate when it overlaps with spaces that are politically charged."
(11:14)

Kate Kennedy:
"Hannah has become a lightning rod for a lot of issues. It’s not just about her lifestyle but the systems she represents."
(11:15)

The conversation shifts to Nara Smith, where opinions diverge on whether her online presence is satirical or earnest.

Chandler:
"I think her work is satirical, but her engagement with fans isn't."
(14:33)

Kate Kennedy:
"I think there's validity in both responses. It can be seen as entertainment without pressure to emulate."
(14:09)

Chandler expresses discomfort with Nara Smith's seemingly inauthentic interactions, suggesting a disconnect between her curated online persona and genuine sentiment.

---

Hollywood Reporter Article on Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni

Lauren reads excerpts from a Hollywood Reporter article examining how the Baha'I faith may have influenced Justin Baldoni's professional behavior, potentially creating an uncomfortable environment in the wake of movements like MeToo and Black Lives Matter.

Lauren:
"Justin would ask God for guidance before making big creative decisions. [...] It's like a female executive giving a quote at a production company imposing culture."
(17:06)

Kate Kennedy:
"There’s a dominating cultural force from their faith that might be off-putting to others."
(22:22)

The article suggests that Justin's emotional and open leadership style, influenced by his religious beliefs, clashed with Hollywood's evolving professional norms, leading to perceptions of arrogance and lack of boundaries.

---

Legal Proceedings and Evidence in the Complaint

The hosts discuss the nature of the evidence presented in the HR complaints, highlighting the absence of concrete evidence like screenshots from Blake Lively's side, contrasting it with Justin Baldoni's more documented side.

Chandler:
"Jenny Slate's complaint includes quotes but no screenshots. It feels cherry-picked."
(28:35)

Kate Kennedy:
"A court will determine the legitimacy of harassment claims, but the lack of evidence is concerning."
(36:25)

They emphasize the importance of tangible evidence in such cases and express skepticism about the sufficiency of the current claims without additional concrete proof.

---

Impact on Friendships and Professional Relationships

The discussion moves to the potential strain on relationships, especially with Taylor Swift, as Blake Lively seeks Justin Baldoni's personal communications.

Lauren:
"Taylor has not been seen with Blake, indicating a possible cooling of their friendship."
(33:48)

Kate Kennedy:
"If Taylor knew about any harassment, she would likely support Blake more actively."
(36:53)

The hosts speculate on the implications of Blake's legal actions on her friendships within the celebrity circle, questioning Taylor Swift's apparent lack of public support.

---

Megan Markle's Public Persona and Authenticity

Transitioning to Meghan Markle, the hosts and Kate examine her curated public image, critiquing its perceived disingenuousness and the challenge of maintaining authenticity under intense scrutiny.

Kate Kennedy:
"Her fine art film photography aesthetic seems disingenuous, making it hard to perceive the real Meghan."
(39:35)

Lauren:
"The wedding photography vibe makes her appear overly curated and less relatable."
(40:04)

They discuss how Meghan's attempt to present an authentic self conflicts with the expectations of modern audiences who favor relatability over curated perfection. The hosts express a desire for Meghan to showcase vulnerability and genuine experiences to bridge this gap.

---

Pookie and Jet: Instagram Influencers

Lauren and Chandler shift focus to the Puckett family, particularly analyzing Jet's over-the-top online presence versus Pookie's seemingly sincere demeanor.

Kate Kennedy:
"Pookie seems genuinely happy, but Jet's exaggerated performances raise red flags."
(53:16)

Chandler:
"Jet's over-the-top behavior feels insincere, detracting from the authenticity of their content."
(54:27)

The trio critiques the balance between authentic content and performative actions in influencer culture, questioning the sustainability and genuineness of such portrayals.

---

Final Thoughts and Wrap-Up

As the episode concludes, the hosts and Kate reflect on the complexities of celebrity behavior, the influence of personal beliefs on professional environments, and the challenges of maintaining authenticity in the public eye.

Lauren:
"This has been such a fun episode. Kate, where can people find you?"
(59:03)

Kate Kennedy:
"Listen to my podcast 'Be There in 5' on Instagram @akennedy and my book 'One in a Millennial' is out in paperback."
(60:10)

---

Notable Quotes

• Lauren (00:00):
  "You guys, this episode is so fun. We have the one and only Kate Kennedy from the 'Be There in 5' pod, and we just... get into all of our favorite things."

• Kate Kennedy (05:18):
  "The universal House of justice is only men, and there's a lot of women in leadership positions, but that specifically is only men."

• Chandler (14:33):
  "I think her work is satirical, but her engagement with fans isn't."

• Lauren (26:29):
  "Could someone have different perspectives on whether there was harassment or just an uncomfortable working environment?"

• Kate Kennedy (36:25):
  "I don't think Justin's a predator. [...] I think it is a lot of either..."

---

Key Takeaways

1. Celebrity Influence and Religion: The interplay between personal religious beliefs and professional environments can lead to misunderstandings and discomfort, as seen with Justin Baldoni's approach in his professional settings.

2. Authenticity vs. Curation: Modern audiences crave authenticity in celebrity personas, challenging influencers and public figures like Megan Markle to present genuine facets of their lives amidst curated public images.

3. Impact of Legal Disputes on Relationships: Legal actions, such as Jenny Slate's complaint against Justin Baldoni, can strain personal and professional relationships within tight-knit celebrity circles.

4. Influencer Behavior: The balance between genuine happiness and performative actions is crucial for influencers like the Puckett family, affecting audience perception and engagement.

---

Note: This summary excludes advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content segments to focus solely on the substantive discussions of the episode.

Transcript

[Lauren]

You guys, this episode is so fun. We have the one and only Kate Kennedy from the be there in 5 pod, and we just. We get into all of our favorite things.

[Chandler]

I would say we get into all of our favorite things. We talk about the latest with Lake and Justin, of course, something, you know, Lauren and I have to get into. We also talk about Meghan Markle, and.

[Lauren]

As ever, this is a quintessential pop apologist podcast. We get into the Pukinator, we get into Ballerina Farm, we get into Nara Smith. Just so many of the women who live rent free in our brains full time. So it's such a fun episode. And Kate just has so many interesting thoughts. I love listening to her talk because she's clearly, you know, she's working at a higher level sometimes, and she. She has a lot to teach me. She unlocks some things about Pookie. So if you listen to the end, you're going to hear some unsettling things that maybe we need to all come to grips with. And with that, enjoy the episode, everyone. Well, well, well. I am so excited. Joined by the host of the Be There in Five podcast, Kate Kennedy. Kate is the author of One in a Millennial on Friendship, feeling fangirls, and Fitting In. I'm so excited to have you here, Kate, because I have to tell you, when we were first starting our podcast, I kind of knew we had a lot of overlap. And I was like, I would just love to do a swap at some point, but to be honest, I was just, like, always too nervous to reach out because you were just, like, so successful.

[Chandler]

You're a big name to us.

[Lauren]

This is, like, so fun.

[Kate Kennedy]

Well, likewise. You guys have blown up, and I was shook when you reached. I'm so happy to be here.

[Lauren]

Thank you.

[Kate Kennedy]

And I love what you're doing in this space. And I feel like we have. What we have in common is extracting meaning from pop culture.

[Chandler]

Yes, precisely.

[Lauren]

We're anthropologists.

[Kate Kennedy]

We really are.

[Lauren]

We're scholars, we're historians, we're journalists. And today we have subject matter to really dig into. So everyone knows we're doing. Everyone on this planet knows that we are doing a series. Chandler's facial expression, or she looks at me on the pod is always like, what's she gonna say? Like, what's happening? What's gonna come out of your. What are you gonna make?

[Chandler]

I'm dead. I'm curious.

[Kate Kennedy]

No, no, no.

[Chandler]

I'm ready. I'm soaking it up.

[Lauren]

This is you. That's your facial expression.

[Chandler]

You know what? Honestly, and Sometimes when you start talking, that is what I'm feeling inside.

[Lauren]

And it's really fun to look at. While I'm trying to get a sense.

[Kate Kennedy]

Of talk, I'm working on my, like, neutral camera face.

[Chandler]

I need to try it because if.

[Kate Kennedy]

It'S not the person talking, sometimes you don't think the camera's, like, on you. Yeah. And my lip flip's not gonna let me get too expressive, but.

[Chandler]

Okay, continue. I'm in a new expression.

[Lauren]

Chandler is supporting me from across the room with a gorgeous grin. And we need to get into a little State of the Union on Blake and Justin. Everyone on this earth knows, of course, that we're doing our big, you know, multi part series. Right now. We're at part seven and we got in trouble. Someone says, I have unsubscribed as a subscriber. You have lost me because you did not address Jenny Slate with her complaint. Her HR complaint.

[Chandler]

Didn't we though?

[Lauren]

Well, we did. So we had to cut it from the episode because we didn't actually get to, like, the heart of the issue.

[Chandler]

Well, that'll happen sometimes.

[Lauren]

We were on a time crunch. So anyway, we're gonna get to it now. So we're just gonna tie up a few loose ends, discuss the Hollywood Reporter article. This is not going to be another Justin and Blake episode. But I feel like we just need to make sure we're current on this topic so we don't lose any more subscribers. Okay. Okay. Jenny Slate filed an HR complaint and she said that she basically needed to move apartments and she didn't want to because she was going to lose the $15,000 security department deposit. And Jamie Heath wrote back and was like, don't worry, like, we'll take care of it. That's what we said on the pod. It was an apartment issue we didn't get to. So what her complaint was is that because she's not complaining that they were going to give her more money. She complained because she said that the reason why is because Jamie Heath was went into some long soliloquy about the sanctity of motherhood. And that is why Wayfarer would be happy to like, make sure she was in a space that was, like, what she wanted. And this to her felt very, like, creepy and invasive. The way he talked about, quote, the sanctity of motherhood.

[Chandler]

That was what we were apparently hiding.

[Lauren]

That is what we did not fully cover.

[Chandler]

I thought it was going to be like the apartment was, like, too close to where Jamie Heath was staying. And she felt creeped out by him?

[Lauren]

No, but I think.

[Chandler]

What do you make of this?

[Lauren]

I think then we're going to get into it a little bit more. But I think that Justin and Jamie are clearly part of this Baha'I faith. I think that they're a little bit high on their own supply, their own spiritual supply. They're very hippie dippy, and I think they speak in a language that other people find very off putting and invasive. And it's almost like they have been too embroiled in their own community to not realize, like, this is weird for other people, you know?

[Kate Kennedy]

Yeah, I agree. I don't know how, you know, high control Baha'I is in terms of like taking over your vocabulary and kind of ways you interact with people. But I will say something that's common with religion, period. The end is kind of that benevolent sexism where you kind of will talk positively about women while subjugating them. So it's kind of Baha'I. For example, one of their big principles is gender equality, but their highest institutional governance is all men. Women can't be. And you guys are Mormon, right?

[Chandler]

Yes. Yeah.

[Kate Kennedy]

So it's kind of similar in that it's like this benevolent effort to build women up to talk about how women are like, unique and it sounds really good, but while also giving them no meaningful power.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Kate Kennedy]

So it's kind of a red flag for me.

[Lauren]

Are you 100% sure on that? Only because.

[Kate Kennedy]

Yes. Let me.

[Lauren]

Okay, you are, because I read that they were about abolishing the priesthood and gender equality, but maybe that's a new.

[Kate Kennedy]

So I read this this morning and guys, I'm not an expert on Baha'I.

[Lauren]

And I want the Baha'I.

[Kate Kennedy]

Don't want to. Don't come for me. I think it's fair to look at religion for how it like influences people's behavior in a secular space. Right?

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Kate Kennedy]

And the universal House of justice is only men, and there's a lot of women in leadership positions, but that specifically is only men. But gender equality is a huge tenet of the faith. So it's not to say that they're inherently discriminatory or sexist, but I can understand how as a person who used to be in an evangelical spaces, you can be spoken to as a woman in a way that feels belittling in the name of empowering you, but only for you in relation to somebody else. Like being a mother, wife or daughter.

[Lauren]

How you're of service to other people. Yeah. So Kate, how did you grow up?

[Kate Kennedy]

I'm from Virginia and I dabbled in like evangelical youth group vibes in high school. And so I have a lot of feelings about religion.

[Lauren]

Yeah. What part of Virginia outside of Richmond? Okay. We're from Orange County, California, and I was listening to one of your podcast episodes yesterday and you were saying how you like would have loved to have been like a Southern California kid.

[Kate Kennedy]

Yes.

[Lauren]

Like idolized it. Cause you watched the OC and stuff like that. Well, I became obsessed with Virginia, so.

[Kate Kennedy]

I've never in my life heard anybody say that.

[Lauren]

Yeah, like, I still kind of am.

[Kate Kennedy]

Why Colonial Williams?

[Lauren]

No, I. I fell in love with the artist work or fell in love with the work.

[Chandler]

We fell in love with a woman.

[Kate Kennedy]

Say it.

[Lauren]

I fell in love with a woman named Sally Mann. I watched documentary about her.

[Chandler]

She's a famous for.

[Lauren]

She's a famous photographer. And I basically became like low key, her stalker. Like I was so obsessed. And she lives in Lexington, Virginia. Not to dox her, but there's a whole. There's a whole documentary.

[Chandler]

Sally Mann is worried about being doxed.

[Lauren]

There's a whole documentary about her life. So I'm pretty sure. Anyway, long story short, that's like selling her farm.

[Chandler]

All of her photography is like set around there. And so I think that's why you fell in love.

[Lauren]

I think because I was raised in the OC with like a lot of like very image conscious women I beheld in this documentary. This very like intellectual, just kind of like salt of the earth, real woman of the land who like read literature and just was really smart and thought important thoughts. And I was like, that is what I want out of my life. And I also just thought the landscape was so beautiful. And so I literally was so in love with it. I mean.

[Chandler]

I mean. Yeah, I was gonna say you're burying the lead. She like, Lauren like went there. Lauren was like. We were in college. She was like, well, I'm gonna be moving to Virginia at the end of this year, like after I graduate.

[Lauren]

That's like a five year fixture.

[Chandler]

And she went and traveled there. You did a weekend there? Yeah.

[Lauren]

And then I was just like, oh, there's just like no one I could date here. There's like barely anyone in this town.

[Kate Kennedy]

Yeah.

[Lauren]

And then I also found myself like at like right next to her farm. And I'm like, this is now fucking weird.

[Kate Kennedy]

You found yourself, AKA you looked up the farm and I found myself in.

[Lauren]

The driveway and I was like, get away from this. Like, this is weird. Oh my gosh, I cannot believe I've told this story again. Where we have now much more listeners.

[Kate Kennedy]

I am all for pop culture tourism. Listen, I've been to Forks, Washington. Like, I get. Is funny for you to think Virginia women being like, salt of the. I mean, I was down the street at college, like, wearing a charlotte russe top and singeing my hair with a straightener. Like, it's not really the collective vibe. But I love that for Sally.

[Lauren]

Yeah, I was very naive and delusional about what I would find there.

[Chandler]

Also, to add a layer of context to our Orange county upbringing, we were like. We were raised in a beach town, but we were also, like, Mormon. Heavily Mormon. So it wasn't like we were in, like, string bikinis feeling ourselves on surfboards. It was like we were in. Well, first of all, we're. Ne of us are athletic at all. Also, Lauren didn't like the beach. We were not. Not. We were only allowed to wear one pieces.

[Lauren]

We weren't living that Southern.

[Chandler]

We were not living that life necessarily.

[Kate Kennedy]

One pieces were, like, hot.

[Chandler]

Yes. I remember getting a tankini and my mom being like, well, we'll sew it like a monokini.

[Lauren]

Yes.

[Kate Kennedy]

Yes.

[Chandler]

So anyway, it wasn't. It wasn't exactly the OC dream.

[Lauren]

No.

[Chandler]

People see.

[Lauren]

No, we were not living that lifestyle. And I just want to make it very clear. I did not actually go on the farm. I was like, I didn't.

[Chandler]

Oh, my gosh. Nobody is worried about this.

[Lauren]

Okay. I just want to make it clear. I didn't fully stock. I came close, but anyway. Kate. No. So that's so interesting. But you have Utah ties, right? Or do you have any Utah?

[Kate Kennedy]

No. I have been chronically online since AOL Instant messenger, and I loved blogs back in the day. They were, like, my form of celebrity. And I just noticed throughout the 2010s that every single blogger I followed was Mormon. And so by the time I started podcasting, it became kind of a big theme of my podcast, because at the time, there wasn't a lot of discourse about influencers as celebrities when I started seven years ago. So I've just done a lot of investigative work about the Mormon faith, but also in the context of growing up in an evangelical space and kind of. There's a lot of parallels there that I've kind of had to undo with, like, purity culture and stuff as an adult. So I don't. I'm actually not an expert at all, just as I'm not an expert in the Baha'I faith. I should probably keep my mouth shut. But I think it's really interesting to Talk about as women. Because religion is something that's so hard to criticize because it seems so positive on the surface. But you have to be mindful of how it can kind of subjugate women on the inside.

[Lauren]

Yeah, well. And I honestly think. I mean, it's a perfect tee up. Cause I have it in my outline we need to get to. And I think this is good. Let's kind of like, let's kind of roam around. We'll go back to Justin and let's keep it freewheeling. But it's kind of a perfect moment to touch on Ballerina Farm and your thoughts on Hannah, because I do think that is like, the central criticism people have is like, she's basically glamorizing subjugation. Some people will say it's knowingly, some people will say it's unwittingly so.

[Kate Kennedy]

Yeah.

[Lauren]

What do you think?

[Kate Kennedy]

I mean, first of all, I know she's enjoying her Irish cooking school, but I do think she should go to Greece. It's about time. That's all she wanted was not that egg apron, but just to get to go to Greece. I think that she is a person that's a product of her environment that has now come to represent a system that she's a part of. And I think it's pretty inadvertent now that they're engaging more politically with. What is it, LV magazine. It's a hard balance because I think people can live their lives and not be respected for, like, the systems that they represent. And I think sometimes people put a little bit too much on her because homesteading, I gather, especially within more extremities of the Mormon faith, like, is something that's kind of desirable, right? Like living off the land, being industrious. When I had Heather Gay on my podcast, she was like, if you're within the constraints of like a homemaker type, you kind of do everything you can to, like, exercise your skills. And then when you max those out, all you can do is like, reboot civilization. So she kind of positioned tradwives as like, okay, I've done everything else. I have to stay within the confines of my home, though. So now let's just live off the land. And I thought that was kind of an interesting way to look at it, but I don't know. I think that she's become kind of a lightning rod for a lot of issues. And yeah, while I think you're entitled to believe what you want, I do hate when it overlaps with spaces that are politically charged, like yvie and it might be lying if I said it didn't bother me, but I want her to live also.

[Lauren]

Yeah. I feel like with the whole Yvie thing, I was just disappointed she didn't hold out for Vogue. Like, she's such a phenomenon at this point. She didn't need to go to this startup right wing magazine. You know, I'm a friend to all people, all communities, so I don't use that term pejoratively, but I just think that, like, it was upsetting to me that honestly, she just wasn't like, in a higher brow publication.

[Kate Kennedy]

That's an interesting point. She probably is higher level now.

[Lauren]

Complete. Much higher level than Evie magazine. She. I think she literally could have a spread in Vogue. Yeah. Before.

[Chandler]

Even before the, like, the British publication that, you know, even before that, like, viral moment of last year, she had 7 million followers or something. Like, she is huge.

[Kate Kennedy]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

And so she absolutely could have been on. I mean, I didn't even know EV magazine existed until we got the Hot Milkmaid cover.

[Lauren]

Yeah, right, of course. Cause it's. Yeah. Anyway, we try to stay apolitical on this podcast.

[Kate Kennedy]

Okay, that's good to know.

[Chandler]

Yeah. But I also, like, just to add to that, like, I didn't even know that it was a politically charged magazine. I just never heard of it. I just didn't even know it existed. So what do you think then of Nara Smith?

[Kate Kennedy]

I mean, I kind of like to let people live. I don't know. I think that there's a baseline entertainment value in people that don't live anything like me. And I think you can see it as a problem, you can see it as aspirational, or you can just take it for what it is, which is entertainment.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Kate Kennedy]

And obviously her lifestyle is not realistic for most people. And I don't really internalize that as, like her putting pressure on women to be like her.

[Lauren]

Right.

[Kate Kennedy]

I think Hannah's earnest. I think Nara's more tongue in cheek.

[Lauren]

Agreed. And I think Hannah, given the way that she was such a competitive ballerina, she's now taken kind of, I think, like being a woman as like, her competition. She's winning now. And like the woman, especially under the eyes of like the patriarchy, which is like breeding beauty, being in service to a ton of different people. But I think Nara Smith is much more satirical. But Chandler disagrees.

[Chandler]

I mean, I think her work is satirical. I just think the way that she engages with like, online community and her fans is not satirical. It's earnest. It doesn't, to me, feel like she's in on the joke when she's like. Like, people, you know, like, the comment section is fully loving it for the satire that it is, but her response to that is just. And I think my other issue with her is she is very young, and she, like, met Lucky when she was like. I think she was, like, not even 18 yet. And I think Lucky has some, like, has an interesting backstory. And, yeah, I think that with Hannah, you see her and she has, like, sweat on her brow. And, like, I think I just, like, prefer a more, like, even if it is curated, a more realistic interpretation on Instagram of whatever hard work you're doing. I don't necessarily love the I'm in lace gloves making gum at 1am for.

[Lauren]

My husband, mind you.

[Kate Kennedy]

It completely changes if it's satire or not. And our perspective being more satirical is kind of like, I'm not gonna overthink this. But if she is literally needing to hand make gum because her husband needs it at all hours, that is a tremendous issue that I would feel very differently about. So that's interesting. I kind of thought she had an Emily Marico approach to her audience where she, like, doesn't really engage.

[Chandler]

Well, I just, like, she. And maybe that is, like, what I'm responding to is, like, she doesn't. Like, she doesn't seem in on the joke when she's responding to them at all. Or it's like, people are like, this is amazing. Or if she's like, thank you. Or like, you, I can't believe you did this. And it's just all very neutral.

[Kate Kennedy]

Okay.

[Chandler]

Like, it could just be her strategy.

[Lauren]

And she'd like to commit to the bit.

[Chandler]

She might also just trigger me, and that might be, like, actually the bullseye here.

[Lauren]

I mean, she's too hot for me.

[Chandler]

To follow, so she's so. She's so beautiful. And I actually. She shared stuff about her, like, skin condition. Anyway, I actually. I think I need to do some, like, inner work with my, like, Nara.

[Lauren]

You have therapy this week, right?

[Chandler]

Usually Fridays.

[Kate Kennedy]

I also think, like. And I do this too, in our work. It's like you kind of work overtime to feel like you need to explain or have a valid reason for somebody not being your vibe. Yeah. I also think it's okay for somebody just not be your vibe.

[Chandler]

Totally. You know, and that's what I think it is. Like, we've talked about this before. Like, I think there are people who get on Instagram for, like, aspirational content, and then there are people who get on there for you Know, just more like realistic people like them. And I think that like, I tend to like, not be as obsessed with like the aspirational side of Instagram, I guess, which I think maybe that's what she does and that's amazing thing. Go women.

[Lauren]

Go women. Okay, we need to get back to Jake and Jake. Jake and Bluston.

[Kate Kennedy]

Hey, got you guys off topic. No, no, you're not.

[Chandler]

It's great. Also, yeah, I have more to say.

[Lauren]

On Nara and I'm controlling myself to. To get back to Blake and Justin because I want to also get into the Hollywood Reporter article. What you're gonna say.

[Chandler]

Can we close the loop fully on Jenny Slate's complaint sanctity and motherhood and if. Do we have any more details about what that conversation?

[Lauren]

Yeah, no, we have no more details, but I'm gonna read part of this article which I think will elucidate that conversation.

[Chandler]

Okay, Lauren, you and I both have a trip coming up where we are wanting to look our best. Thank goodness we have Clean Simple Eats.

[Lauren]

I had a scoop of the Simply Vanilla this morning just mixed with cold water. I swear, everyone, it tasted like melted ice cream. It's so good and it gives you the cleanest energy. It just, it feels amazing. It's 20 grams of clean grass fed protein. I'm so obsessed with Clean Simply's protein powder. I'm so grateful they're a sponsor.

[Chandler]

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[Lauren]

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[Chandler]

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[Lauren]

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[Chandler]

So a friend was telling me the other day how much she loves the early bird tincture. She says it's like the best night's sleep of her life. And that's a very like, subtle feeling.

[Lauren]

Okay, I need to try the tincture. I've only Tried the gummies. You know, I'm obsessed with the gummies. I've turned on so many friends to them. I feel like what's special about Early Bird is the formulation. It's 12.5mg CBD, 2.5mg THC. So it just makes you feel so warm and melty, relaxed, gooey.

[Chandler]

Yeah, I feel like there's no worry that I'm going to be two in my head. It's just. Just cozy. And it's just an easy way to take the edge off and have the most amazing night's sleep.

[Lauren]

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[Chandler]

A big discount, huge discount.

[Lauren]

Earlybirdcbd.com use code POP 20 for 20 off. Okay, so the entire article in the Hollywood Reporter that just dropped, did you guys see the illustration? It was of, like, Blake using a phone as a slingshot towards Justin. Baldoni and her team has, like, already released a statement that she's, like, enraged over this, which she calls a sexist cover that is just, like, promoting all these false images about women that are super damaging, especially women who come forward against perpetrators of sexual harassment or assault. So that is what Blake has to say about this article. In terms of the actual content, it's really focused on the Baha'I faith and how the Baha'I faith was potentially what unwittingly had Jamie and Justin kind of creeping people out.

[Chandler]

Interesting. Yeah.

[Lauren]

So here is what it reads. I'm just going to read some of it. So it says, over the past several weeks, Hollywood Reporter has interviewed multiple friends and former colleagues, Baldoni, along with members of the Baha'I community to piece together if and how this religion might have inadvertently contributed to this situation. Beldoni has made no secret about its devotion to the Baha'I faith, which is based on notions of humanity, universalism, and gender equality. What's also clear from talking to people in his orbit is that Baldoni has his own unique way of communicating and behaving, much of it informed by the tenor of his religion. His unique mannerisms have at times come into conflict with Hollywood's current ethos, which in the wake of MeToo and Black Lives Matter movements in the COVID pandemic, has become far more rigid, uniform and structured, uniform and policed. A source who worked on It Ends with us said, the Justin that I know isn't capable of doing the things that he's being accused of because he truly sees himself as this feminist. But Blake clearly got grossed out. I honestly feel like it was the perfect storm of two opposing personalities. When Baldoni and Wayfair executives hold meetings, they often start by asking participants to go around the table and share something private, something that brings them, quote, joy, and that has nothing to do with, with their jobs or their career.

[Chandler]

That is giving like NXIVM to me.

[Kate Kennedy]

That's very collateral. Rachel Hollis, Trauma bonding. Yeah. MLM conference. I don't know.

[Lauren]

So it says in certain professional circles, like say those of a yoga instructor or doulas, this type of icebreaker might be welcomed. But among time crunched agents, entertainment lawyers and studio executives, folks not exactly known for their touchy feely ways, a gesture of this nature comes with risks. In my head, this is a female executive giving a quote at a production company that worked with them. She says, in my head, I was like, I'm sorry, are we at Cafe fucking Gratitude? Why are you imposing your culture on this meeting that's being held at our offices?

[Kate Kennedy]

That was Cafe Gratitude. I think that, like, that hits the nail of the head of a perfect storm or perfect clash between personalities and cultures. And I think you're more emboldened to operate as a culture. If Justin, Jamie and Steve are all part of this particular faith, even the actor brought in to do the bursing part of the Baha'I faith. So I think that there's probably a dominating cultural force there of what's normal to them that they might have not even realized was off putting to other people. Because like you said, they're so in their own world.

[Lauren]

Well, and if you saw the text from Justin to Blake, it was one of the texts in the complaint. He said, like, we live up in Ojai. We have a very tight circle. We basically like never leave our community. So I think, think it's something where they don't realize how weird their stuff comes across to other people because they're just so mired in it where they live.

[Chandler]

I completely agree. And I think also then if you combine that mentality with working on a film about, you know, subject matter that's very heavy, where you all of a sudden feel like you have this righteous, like, cause you then feel like even more emboldened to like overlay your faith and whatever your belief system, you know, and to infuse it into the entire production. If you're not a religious person, you know, you would feel uncomfortable maybe participating.

[Lauren]

In, well, so Someone that worked on the set of Five Feet Apart, which is another movie he directed, said that he talked about his religion a lot. It has shades of Scientology, but with less prominence and people hovering all the time. And another source who worked on that film said, I've never worked with a male director who was so worried about everyone's emotional and mental well being. As Justin, there was an openness and emotionality to his style that was more typical of a woman. And it probably wouldn't be an issue if it was a female director because of the preconceived notions of gender. But if you get a bunch of Teamsters who are told that they should share their feelings, of course someone is going to ask, why is he such a freak? But Justin genuinely believes that if we do this, we'll work better as a group. There's a little bit of arrogance to it. It's like he doesn't want to acknowledge the world that we live in.

[Kate Kennedy]

I think this is why this situation is so challenging. I don't know where you guys fall. I ebb and flow a bit with evidence presented. I hear less about, like a team and more so diving into all of it. But I don't think Justin's a predator. I've always kind of felt like it's a lot of either. He was a green director that kind of looked over a lot of safeguards that needed to be in place. Like, you know, managing expectations and choreographing a scene if kissing was or wasn't expected and him not saying no when she wanted to involve herself. Or it was a matter of interpretation where he has less boundaries than your average person and that can be internalized in different ways. And I just think that it's really. Yeah, I think that the religion piece adds an interesting layer in terms of how, like, the overall vibe and culture of the movie, based on how many leaders were a part of it, could have just made the girls feel a little bit, like, gaslit, like, does anyone else see this? Like, this isn't normal for this type of environment type thing. You know what I mean?

[Chandler]

For sure.

[Lauren]

And especially when you hear in the context of they're really getting so mushy, gushy into their feelings and asking like, invasive questions about and wanting to talk about the sanctity of your motherhood when you were just talking about, like your, you know, residence situation or where you're staying, I think that you can understand how all of a sudden it just would have started to feel just very like, I'm thinking invasive kind of I feel like I've said that word too much, but just very like, inappropriate. Inappropriate in a professional setting. Like, I actually don't want to talk about something private that has nothing to do with my job. That, like, brings me joy. It feels like you're asking me for, like private information for some sort of like a weird leverage, you know?

[Kate Kennedy]

Yeah. And I think that's why I brought up earlier, like the benevolent sexism piece, because even I was watching, I saw a TikTok like Perez Hilton being like, oh, sorry for being grateful. Sorry for offering you money type thing. It's like, well, that's just it. There is how nice it looks on the surface to offer somebody because that was it. Right. He offered to pay the security deposit.

[Chandler]

She'd lose.

[Kate Kennedy]

Of course that's a nice gesture and I think we'd all acknowledge that. But I think there's a lot missing as this happens.

[Chandler]

A lot.

[Kate Kennedy]

Unfortunately, we didn't get a lot of specifics in that amended complaint and I need like, language because the way it's described, it doesn't sound that damning. But if I'm to look deeper, I can understand how the way it was positioned could be really off putting. So it's like, there's validity in both responses to like, that's really nice. And also there could be something deeper and creepier there.

[Lauren]

Well, I mean, think about it this way. What if she was a man who came with the same complaint or same issue that she needed to, or that he needed to move and they were like, yes, the sanctity of fatherhood or the sanctity of being a husband must be upheld. And it's like, well, I'm actually just an actor, a hired actor. I don't need to get into your notions of my domestic role and like, how I should be fulfilling that. Maybe there was some element of mom shaming in that where it's like, you.

[Kate Kennedy]

Know, like, it's your duty as a mother.

[Lauren]

Yes.

[Kate Kennedy]

Provide them with a space. Yeah, yeah.

[Lauren]

Like, I can see how that's almost. That's just very unprofessional, you know?

[Chandler]

Yeah. And I think, like, all of this is true and correct, like both of your takes. But what I keep going back to is like, but was there sexual harassment? Was there harassment?

[Lauren]

Right.

[Chandler]

And that is where we read that alleged complaint that was leaked last week where very likely, like overt actions were described and allegedly Justin putting his hands on one of the female actors butt while he was trying to.

[Kate Kennedy]

I did not read that.

[Chandler]

Her posture. We. And we don't Know, if this is.

[Lauren]

True, this is a leaked document, and we. It could just be bs, so it.

[Chandler]

Could just be bs. And so anyway, we read that last week, and we were just like that. To me, that's not in the gray, you know. Of course.

[Kate Kennedy]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

And so anyway, I, like, if that's not true, then, like, was there true harassment or was it an uncomfortable working environment? Because these guys are woo woo. And you were just like, let's just keep it professional, like, leave your religious beliefs at the door, you know, or whatever. That's where I continue to struggle with Blake's side of things.

[Lauren]

Okay, so listen to this little detail. It says, on the first day of filming, several members of the crew participated in a Baha'I prayer. Other sources report that Beldoni frequently would, quote, ask God for guidance before making big creative decisions on the film, like.

[Chandler]

In front of everybody.

[Lauren]

Yes, I guess he did need help. Given. Given. Given her outfit idea.

[Kate Kennedy]

Yeah, it's like, yeah, do that on your own time. You can worship however you. But I. Yeah, I think in a secular space, in a workplace environment, if other people feel it's being thrust onto them, that's a source for discomfort.

[Lauren]

Right.

[Kate Kennedy]

And that amended complaint, Blake was, like, quoting texts but not showing screenshots.

[Chandler]

This is my huge problem with that entire. With her amended complaint is that, like, unfortunately, you know, Justin gave us full screenshots, and she just gave us, like, quotes from text messages from what she sent and, like, what other people sent. And it just. It did still feel cherry picked.

[Kate Kennedy]

Yeah, I was kind of surprised by that because the smoking gun would be other women coming forward and having concrete complaints. And they said, like, in their selective text, that wasn't a screenshot. They would say, like, we have this in writing, but, no, well, we're not.

[Chandler]

Gonna show it to you.

[Kate Kennedy]

And I don't know if they're holding out till trial or whatever, but they seem pretty confident that, like, the truth will come to light in the trial.

[Lauren]

Both sides, too.

[Kate Kennedy]

Both sides do.

[Chandler]

Sean, like, I think one of the, quote, texts that were. That was in her amended complaint said something about, like. I think it was about, you know, after they'd agreed to the list of, like, demands or whatever, when they went back to filming, it was like, it's all right. You never have to hug him or something. Like, he won't touch you. And that, to me, that's pretty damning. That's pretty indicative of a type of work environment where you don't feel safe as a woman, or you feel like there's been Harassment. But I also am just like, okay, so what else happened? Or can you share who that was with or, you know, why? Honestly, I want to know the text before that and the text after that.

[Kate Kennedy]

I thought the quoted texts were very telling and really supported the argument that Blake was using her leverage not to take over the movie, but on behalf of the other actors as a woman in the more powerful position to say no more of this. And it's interesting. Cause in Justin's complaint, he said that, like, why would she try to get. I don't know if it was the intimacy coordinator or what it was for Isabella, the other actress, when her sex scenes were already done. But Blake went out of her way to include. This is also for the other. So I do think that's interesting context that she wasn't doing it just on her own behalf.

[Lauren]

And I think when we were first reading through his complaint, we had a very ungenerous interpretation of that. We thought maybe she just wanted control over her image to the extent of even, like the other cast member cast as the young version of her. But it makes more sense, and I think it's less of a reach to say, no. This was her way of protecting that cast member and her way of having some sort of oversight over Isabel's participation and scenes.

[Chandler]

The hard part with all this, and I know we should probably move on to another subject. Cause now we're. We're recording part eight, but with this young actress. Actor? Are you supposed to say actor or actress? I never know. Is it like actors?

[Kate Kennedy]

More like PC, like server, waitress? I don't know.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Kate Kennedy]

Young actresses, stewardess.

[Lauren]

I think Demi just won best actress.

[Kate Kennedy]

So you're saying, comedienne, don't worry, Chandler.

[Lauren]

You can speak freely here at this safe space.

[Chandler]

So. But with Isabella, she sent a text to Justin after production, which was in his complaint or his lawsuit, that said like. Like all of these nice things. And then one of the sentences literally said, thank you for making it such a comfortable production. And I just fundamentally think you would not have used that word if you felt like this guy was creepy. Yeah, maybe you needed to kiss his ass. You needed to send a text thanking him for being a director or whatever. I just do not think he would have used the word comfortable as a woman if you really felt like this.

[Kate Kennedy]

Guy was a creep.

[Lauren]

That's why this case is endlessly interesting, is cause there's just little nuggets that, you know, support each side. I would say most nuggets support Justin's side. And unfortunately, Blake seems to Continue to not present actual evidence. And it's just a lot of hearsay. And it's a lot of. Well, I texted this person, but I'm not gonna actually give you the screenshot like you said, Kate, this is in writing, but you can't see the primary text. I'm just gonna summarize it. Some pieces of communications that hopefully we will see and is being theorized we will see are subpoenaed text messages between Blake Lively and Taylor Swift. No way. Oh, yeah. They are going after her messages with Taylor Swift because she's going after every single phone. Any. She wants the call logs, she wants his text messages. She wants everything for the past, like, three years from him. Two or three years. And what I've seen is that his attorney is now saying, we want all of your communications with Taylor Swift that could have anything to do with this.

[Chandler]

So can you imagine if we get the text, like, first super bowl that Taylor went to, and Blake's like, I think I'm gonna wear this tracksuit and do my hair really big, like. And I was like, what if you.

[Lauren]

Wear 40 bracelets on each arm?

[Kate Kennedy]

I think that this is a wake up call for me personally, that, like, even if something isn't about you, your texts can still be subpoenaed. Yes.

[Lauren]

You know, it's really scary, actually.

[Kate Kennedy]

It's a wake up call.

[Lauren]

I actually just had no idea. So, like, now I'm just gonna sound like an idiot. But can they just go delete them? Like, how do I. Yeah, like when.

[Kate Kennedy]

You were at Sally's house and looking up, like, texting, I'm outside the door. Can you delete that? No.

[Lauren]

100%. Can there be some revisionist history or is that something you go to jail for?

[Chandler]

I mean, I literally didn't get, like, this. I think unless you were on, like, maybe an encrypted. I actually don't even know. I don't know.

[Kate Kennedy]

Maybe WhatsApp is the.

[Chandler]

WhatsApp. WhatsApp is like.

[Lauren]

It would be very hard for me to imagine that these celebrities aren't all on some sort of, like, encrypted auto delete.

[Chandler]

Well, but what's interesting is I think a lot of them are, like, iOS messages. Like the we like iOS screenshots, not like WhatsApp screenshots anyway. Or maybe they are. And I actually. I'm totally out of my depth here, but I would believe that you can literally subpoena, like, messages from, especially from Apple. Popapologist is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, fiscally responsible financial geniuses Monetary magicians. These are the things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Because Progressive offers discounts for paying in full, owning a home and more. Plus you can count on their great customer service to help you when you need it. So your dollar goes a long way way. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save on car insurance. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.

[Kate Kennedy]

Do you guys think that it's affecting their friendship?

[Lauren]

Yes. I mean, I think very clear. Taylor has not been seen with Blake.

[Chandler]

And which to me is another indicator for just inside of this. Because I do think if Taylor really felt like Blake was in the right, fully in the right, I think she would, like, be at least doing a little bit of a pap walk. I mean, Taylor has no problem supporting her friends when they are, like, getting negative publicity or anything. I mean, think about, like, Sophie Turner. It's a different situation. But when Sophie Turner was, like, going through the divorce with Joe Jonas and all that news was coming out about how she was a party girl, but then, like, Taylor, like, welcomed her with open arms and she was with Taylor staying at Taylor's apartment, and it was like, okay, clearly Taylor doesn't think she's done anything wrong. I think Taylor has obviously just has so much power in the media and. And I think it is absolutely a sign that she is not doing anything to, like, help Blake in terms of just some PR walks or pap walks.

[Lauren]

No. I mean, I also think that if Blake was genuinely sexually harassed and Taylor knew it, Taylor, there's just no way in hell Taylor would be like, all right, well, I'm gonna leave you out to dry. Like, I'm just going to not show any allegiance towards you. I'm gonna have articles coming out that I'm backing away from the friendship. I almost feel like Taylor would, like, double down. She would post on Instagram herself to make it so clear that she's like, on Team Blake.

[Chandler]

Especially when all those other celebrities did, too. And when Blake's stuff first came came out, like, so many celebrities were, like, reposting it. Like, so brave. Like, just celebrities across, like, the gamut.

[Lauren]

Gwyneth, it is fishy that we are not here from Taylor. Kate is joining us on the podcast.

[Chandler]

Sorry.

[Lauren]

We are totally just like.

[Kate Kennedy]

This is what you imagine in your head when you're listening to your podcast. I can't. I'm like, actually here. I'm like, you're like. You're in my ear. So I'M enjoying it. But I think that I've always felt what was confusing is if there were ever an example of somebody that appropriately and meaningfully handled a sexual harassment case based on their position of power, it's Taylor Swift. The symbolic dollar. She donated so much money to different funds that represented a cross section of different issues involving workplace harassment, sexual harassment. She went out of her way to, like, that whole case, the language she used, the dollar she sued for, like, it all was about wielding her power to make a point. And this case is the inverse of that. It's like, a lot back and forth that serves both of their individual careers, egos and images. And I think that if Blake hadn't dropped the ball in promoting the movie and lost sight of the bigger picture, I would have more faith in her to kind of do the right thing and make this whole circus about something bigger than her and about supporting women in her position in the workplace and workplace safeguards with actresses, intimate scenes, whatever. But, like, it doesn't seem about that.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Kate Kennedy]

And her claims are valid in the sense that, like, if you're uncomfortable, you're uncomfortable. But a court of law is going to have a threshold for what it deems as legitimate harassment. So I don't doubt that, and I guess we'll see when it goes to trial. But Taylor Swift's approach, I think, was kind of ahead of her time in a way, and I'm surprised that, yeah, we haven't heard from her. And I'm surprised that Blake hasn't done something like a smidge more altruistic or corrective, given how much scrutiny she was under for not handling the support of women during the promotion. Does that make sense?

[Lauren]

Yeah. I mean, it's, like, never too late to start caring about this stuff.

[Kate Kennedy]

I think that's what I wish is. I just wish she would show she cares.

[Lauren]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Chandler]

I'm so curious for your, like, what were your quick thoughts about the SNL appearance from them and then also the Dragons text? Cause you're like. Yeah. Cause you're a Taylor person.

[Kate Kennedy]

Oh, I'm a Taylor person. I've never seen Game of Thrones, so I feel like I totally missed. I mean, the Dragons thing was just kind of like, cringey, generalized cringe. But snl. My gut reaction was, oh, it's as if Blake didn't know he was gonna say that, because I thought she seemed genuinely, like, shocked and irritated, and I was like, is she that good of an actress? But then the entire Internet was like, she's in on it. And I was like, I'm an idiot. I don't actually know. I just that it so obviously doesn't serve their cause. Because if you're gonna make an argument, for example, that like the Hollywood Reporter article is making a mockery of the situation, it's like, well, that made a mockery of the situation. So which is it? I don't know if I would have breached into comedy territory just yet.

[Chandler]

Yeah, I think it was like a good thing for them to go to show that they're not, you know, shunned in those circles. But the making a joke of it, which just felt off tonally.

[Kate Kennedy]

Do you think Kevin Costner was really, like, annoyed or was he just not paying attention?

[Chandler]

He's in on it. I think it was. I think he was no cl. Also, his whatever tanning and like, tone. His tan was really weird and I feel like he was getting some type of blond toning to his hair that was really bad.

[Lauren]

Anyway, notes for his hair colorist.

[Chandler]

And we talk a lot about him on the pod. Okay.

[Lauren]

Another woman who, you know, captivates us with everything she does. She's ready on this earth. One Duchess of Sussex, Meghan Markle. We need to discuss, as ever, we need to discuss with love, Meghan. I mean, you wrote in the outline you sent me for some topics that you could talk about Meghan Markle forever. Likewise, I could think about her forever. She lives rent free in my brain 24 7.

[Kate Kennedy]

I don't have this overwhelming desire to never give her the benefit of the doubt that I think other people have same. And I think she is like at once the most earnest and self unaware person ever. And I just think watching her move through the world and move through this era of their life is a little bit confusing. But I also have tremendous empathy for how there's a real loss of identity and a way of not knowing how to be when you are under a microscope like she is. I wouldn't know what to do with my arms and hands if I were her. Like, everything she does is torn apart. And I actually think, as ever, per literally the definition of that, you know, phrase salutation. This is like a return back to her original state. This is the TIG. This is the 2016 blogger era that she never. She's still at the restaurant like I think she is. I think it's going to be a little bit hilariously out of touch and curated like Instagram was in 2016. And that's what I'm excited.

[Lauren]

Oh, the. The aesthetic is wedding photography.

[Kate Kennedy]

Yeah.

[Lauren]

I don't know if you guys have picked up on that, but it's fully like a wedding photography vibe and aesthetic. Like the mood board or her bulletin board. Well, even just like this photography style. And just the entire brand, I think, is going to be this, like, they call it fine art film photography. And it's with a specific kind of camera, with a specific type of film, like high res as It's. Well, it's context 645 with A. Actually a very wide aperture.

[Chandler]

So it's very proud.

[Lauren]

It's very blurry and very pastel tones. Yeah. And anyway, if you look up fine art film photography, you'll see the exact same brand. And it's actually like, some of the most talented people in that field live in Santa Barbara. So I can understand how she was influenced, but I think that that aesthetic actually just perfectly encapsulates what people find disingenuous about Megan, which is that she's so curated, everything is always so perfect that it comes across as disingenuous. And, like, you don't know the real, real her. That's what Bethenny Frankel, she weighed in, of course, at 2:00am, you know, from bed, and she said that Megan has an authenticity problem. People don't know. They don't know what her real identity is. They don't know who she is. And it seems to me like this is a continuation of that, like, this brand. I feel like even just seeing the rollout and I want to like her. Literally, I want to like her. I read Fighting Freedom. I had as my Instagram bio that I was Meghan Markle's defense attorney, like, a long. So I want to like her, but it's just like, give me a little something like, I am not looking for videos of your landscaping. No more roses. The stray child's hand in the grass. It's just like, can I have a sultry selfie? Can I have, like, an edgy, blingy moment with a glass of wine? I don't know, like, why is it all so G rated?

[Kate Kennedy]

I agree with you and I'm excited for that. Like, I think there's something funny about, like, the years of her life where she had to turn inward with such turmoil and scrutiny and where they escaped like, they escaped in 20. I think the world and the way we view influencers and celebrities fundamentally changed during that era where there was a meaningful shift from aspiration to authenticity. And people really want you to be relatable now in a way that that was not the case in the mid 2010s when the Tig was at its peak. And she wants to be like, yeah, probably like a barefoot Contessa, Martha Stewart, lifestyle curator vibe that I almost don't know if she doesn't realize that that doesn't quite land anymore. And I think it'll be interesting. But I also feel confused because when some people do that sort of stuff, like Wishbone Kitchen, for example, like, if she does like a really beautiful tablescape and a meal and all this stuff, like, people love it, but if Megan will do it, it's kind of like disingenuous and try hard and curated. And I just think it's a little confusing because if we're taking her out of it, that type of content I am interested in. If it's like hacks and how tos and food and crafts and whatever, like, sure, sign me up. But there's something about assigning her to it that like, kind of, I don't know.

[Chandler]

I think what we're missing with Megan is a critical understanding of, like, what she's truly good at and interested in. Because I think, like, okay, like, I, I, I'm here for the curated content if I feel like you actually are an amazing chef or if you're any of these things. But she just, to me, I'm like, jam. Cause you like jam like living in beautiful homes, which doesn't necessarily make you an by default interesting person, you know. And so I'm just missing, like, where does Megan plug into one of these things in a way that's like, innate to her more than just being a beautiful, you know, expensive taste and, you know, wanting to curate that. But what I will say is I do think her video announcing as ever was her attempt at being less curated.

[Lauren]

Yes.

[Kate Kennedy]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

And I think it was, I think to me, that was like, okay, she's listening. Thank you for listening. We. And I think that compared to even just like the Netflix trailer for With Love, I think it was like it was dressed down and I totally appreciated that. One other thing to your point about why is she always so G rage? I believe, I believe she's a G rated person to begin with. I don't think she's as crass as you and I are.

[Lauren]

Didn't they watch a Disney movie?

[Chandler]

Yeah, she's always been earnest and kind of more PG of a girl, which is great. It's very becoming. Not unbecoming, as our dad would say. As our dad parents would say. And I think too, she is still married to a prince. And I do think that when you sign up for that. You do take on a level of, like, okay, I probably can't say the C word on my podcast. You know, Like, I just. I think there's a mantle of decorum that is placed on you that I think she has to carry forward.

[Lauren]

Heavy is the crown, heavy is the vanderpump would say.

[Kate Kennedy]

I don't know if you've gone through, like, the archives of the tig, but, like, oh, no, the TIG is what this show is. So I think that's why I think it's like, a return to her baseline existence, which is authentic.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Kate Kennedy]

What she's good at, to your point, I don't know if it's specific categories like florals, landscaping, cooking, hosting, but I think she's, like, kind of vloggery in that she's an expert curator.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Kate Kennedy]

And I think she's an expert, like, curating an aesthetic, which is kind of hollow and does have its limits. And so I think that's a really fair point. And I think it would. At this point, it's like, anything she does, however curated, there's going to be a lot of people polarized. So she might as well just, like, lean into being goofy, being more honest, being more transparent. Like, I actually would really like if she loosened up a bit. And I think her being tense is a function of the scrutiny. But I. At this point, it's so hard to win with the general population. You might as well just try something different.

[Lauren]

Yeah. I mean, also, I feel like we don't know what's coming. There could be something different in the Netflix series. Like, she could be a little bit more unguarded. Maybe she's not gonna try to present herself as this, like, expert homemaker. Maybe she's gonna be like, I've always wanted to live in a house like this. I've always wanted to be able to, like, have these moments. And I brought in bringing in expert friends to, like, show me. Like, I feel like, you know, we just recorded an episode with the designer helped me with the space in Brooklyn, and I did not come into that recording. Like, I had an exact vision for what I wanted brought to life. Like, I was like, no, I honestly feel, like, very unsure of myself and my decisions. I needed an expert, and hopefully Megan took, you know, had a similar approach where if she's not a subject matter expert, there is a, like, realness to it. And it's not like, oh, I'm an amazing chef. Watch me, you know, make ice cubes with flowers.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Lauren]

Does that make sense?

[Kate Kennedy]

That's a great point. I. I'm hopeful for that. But I do think it's going to be. I think the. The silliest thing on it is going to be like her getting flower on her nose, you know, Like, I don't. Yeah, I'm so messy type thing. But yeah, I think that per the Bethany of it all, too. One thing I'll say, I am curious if Netflix has somewhat of a Bethany clause. You know, like the Bethany clause with Bravo.

[Chandler]

Yes.

[Kate Kennedy]

They get a chunk of your business. I thought it was interesting she said in that video. Netflix, Netflix, they are distributing my show. But they came on as a partner of as ever.

[Lauren]

Yes.

[Kate Kennedy]

And I thought that was interesting.

[Lauren]

Well, I mean, it makes sense, right? Like, if she's gonna be using this show to promote a bunch of products, it's like Netflix wants the Bravo Bethany Claus.

[Kate Kennedy]

So why, as ever is a salutation people often use in letters like with love? Why isn't it as ever, Meghan?

[Chandler]

Cause she already had used with love Meghan.

[Kate Kennedy]

That's why. I think as ever is very recent.

[Chandler]

Right. Well, it wasn't as ever, just because of the trademark issue with American Riviera wallpaper.

[Kate Kennedy]

She made a point in the video to. To say, I secured this in 2022.

[Chandler]

Right. But then why.

[Kate Kennedy]

Why go all in American? The hardest R name of all time. Yeah. The trademark got declined in August.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Kate Kennedy]

So I assume the pivot was sometime around then.

[Chandler]

Right, Right.

[Kate Kennedy]

But. And the show wasn't announced yet, so it could have been as ever. Megan. I don't really know. I just think it's a little confusing.

[Chandler]

I just one thing with her, there's so many announcements of names and there's just so few products or episodes or whatever that, like, I'm ready to lock in on some names and to just be like, present for, like, the name.

[Lauren]

And not for the execution.

[Chandler]

I'm ready for the execution. I feel like we've been in the mood boarding name for five years, literally name, you know, ideation stage for years.

[Lauren]

Chandler and I love to bemoan the fact that, like, Nepo babies and people like, in Meghan Markle's position, they think like, going to work means, like, sitting down with, like, basically a team that's been paid a lot of money to make, like, really expensive PowerPoints for you and you're like, dreaming your vision. And I feel like she's just been at that stage. Like, that's what they consider work. It's like going to meetings where, like, they're the star and, like, they're Being presented a bunch of, like, ideas by, like, really underpaid creatives.

[Chandler]

I think this is, though, what we kind of heard, though, and that. What was the. I can't remember the publication, that article. We just read about the two of them. Vanity Fair or Vanity Fair article. Where it was like, they basically don't necessarily come to the table with the best of ideas. And it's kind of hard to get them to, like, move into the execution.

[Lauren]

Stage and to commit to it.

[Kate Kennedy]

Yeah, I did read that.

[Lauren]

They wanna walk it back. Cause they get all afraid when it actually comes to doing it.

[Chandler]

Exactly.

[Kate Kennedy]

I think I was kind of more of an apologist until the whole podcasting. Because I think as a person who understands this job and industry, I was like a team of 28 people. 20 some million dollars. 12 episodes that took three. I'm sorry. It's just like. It's not that hard. It has its own challenges. But, like, you don't need that to put that out.

[Chandler]

No.

[Kate Kennedy]

And to not even, like. I don't know. The whole thing frustrated me to no end. And I think that. And I think Bill Simmons at Spotify was also, like, called them grifters. That was kind of like a moment of pause for me. Of like, okay. I think that it's kind of. I don't like the inserting yourself into, like, popular industries and thinking you can do the best job at it, but you're not bringing anything to the table and trying to meaningfully contribute.

[Chandler]

Right, right.

[Lauren]

I will say, when it comes to the Vanity Fair article, I felt like it was a real corroboration for the rumors that are like, when the palace said we're investigating her bullying, that, to me, I thought was like a smear campaign. I was like, this is fictitious. Like, this is fiction. This is them thinking. She just has this very abrupt work ethic and whatever. She's, like, getting in trouble because she wants to hit the ground running and is a little aggressive. I honestly can relate. But I feel like when Vanity Fair put out their article and they had quotes from people at Spotify, I mean, I actually have it on this outline. So one of the quotes from the article is it said. The source, who worked in media projects, says Megan's own relationships with employees tended to follow a familiar pattern. She'll be warm and effusive at the beginning, engendering an atmosphere of professional commercial camaraderie. When something went poorly, often due to Megan and Harry's own demands, such as a teaser for archetypes being released five months before the show premiered and before there was any tape to promote, Megan would become cold and withholding toward the person she perceived to be responsible. The source says it was, quote, really, really, really awful. Very painful because she's constantly playing checkers. I'm not even going to say chess, but she's just very aware of where everybody is on her board. And when you're not in, you're to be thrown to the wolves at any moment. In practice, they say that manifested as, quote, undermining. It's talking behind your back, it's gnawing sense of self. Really, really like mean girls, teenager. And so there's a part of me that, yeah, it, it. I don't want to believe this is true about her, but it's. It's like when there's enough smoke, there is a fire.

[Chandler]

I just have to say I work still at a professional, in a professional corporate job. I cannot imagine having a boss like that or anyone who I work with. I mean, I guess she's a celebrity too, so maybe she gets like a pass for some things. You know, people, whatever will put up with it. But like cannot imagine like that type of undermining, mean girl behavior from. From someone who I'm working for. Like, I. Yeah, especially who's like a.

[Lauren]

Celebrity and holds all the power.

[Chandler]

Exactly.

[Lauren]

No, and who you want to like you also. The guy who dropped that they were doing this bullying investigation, who gave the quote, he has just released a new quote saying that he. And he actually helped them plan their wedding and he called it a magical experience. That portion.

[Chandler]

The guy who's like. Was it the palace investigator?

[Lauren]

Yes.

[Chandler]

His behalf.

[Lauren]

It says former royal aide who accused Meghan Markle of bullying, quote, has no regrets. And he has given a quote that he, he did this interview with. I think it's 16 minutes Australia. But he was like, I have no regrets for how I handled that. Like there was investigations, essentially.

[Chandler]

I'm laughing a little bit because I'm thinking about like, I don't know, M16, like investigating the bullying. Like Meghan Markle.

[Kate Kennedy]

I mean, I think we're all pretty clear on that. The palace bullied her pretty intensely for sure, in, you know, full neglect of her mental health and well being. Beyond that, the media campaigns against her as part of the Royal Road. Like, I think there's a lot of mutual weirdness. But yeah, I think we also have to listen to the staff turnover. They have had so many different heads of Archewell publicists. Like, they have a lot of staff turnover when they were in the Royals and in their privatized stuff, which, like, in theory, who wouldn't want to work with them? Right. Unless it's not a great environment.

[Chandler]

I think that is, like, the biggest litmus test for any celebrity is like, are there friends? Are there staff? Like, people who have been there there for eons forever?

[Lauren]

Yeah, that's for everything. Like, anyone. If you can retain people that work for you, that just goes to show, like, people enjoy working for you. They want to work with you. That says a lot. And especially because a lot of times, like, it's how you treat your employees, people who you have power over, you know, whatever, that shows a lot about your character. And the fact that everyone flees.

[Chandler]

Like someone had to go on, like, a mental health break.

[Lauren]

Yes.

[Chandler]

After working on the podcast, I guess.

[Kate Kennedy]

Oh, really?

[Chandler]

Like the. The podcast that never even was, like, not even Arkansas. I mean.

[Kate Kennedy]

Well, this is also confusing too, because that's part of my gut check with Blake and Justin is the entire cast on following and not speaking to him. I'm like, I keep going back to that being like, does she have enough power and pull where she could meaningfully get everyone to flip on their instincts and just completely reject a person that is sincere, kind, and genuine? Maybe she does have that power, but I do think it is hard when you're looking at that as evidence because it does seem like Occam's Razor. Like, the simplest explanation is typically true. And I think with Meghan and Harry, like, enough people don't want to work with them, that something about their working style is not ideal.

[Lauren]

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. Okay, let's move on from Megan to another brunette, captivating woman. For me, in my heart, at first I was not a fan, but I am now probably her biggest fan, the Pukinator, one and only Campbell Puckett. Okay, I am. I love the Pookie, but I'm. I always need people's sauce on Pookie.

[Kate Kennedy]

Pookie's staying power is remarkable. It is, I think, to their credit. It's so. I mean, I thought they were going to be a viral moment. An original video. The quintessential Pookie, the da da da D. I'm on board with Pookie. I think she seems very sincere. I think she seems sweet. I'm not fully there with Jet, and I think that anytime there is a level of performance with a couple's affection for one another, I'm uncomfortable. It's kind of red flaggy to me in the way that a too long of an anniversary caption is. Yeah, you Know, and so I'm not, I have feelings about Jet, but Pookie herself, I think seems absolutely lovely and I want great things for her and she seems to love being a mom and I'm really happy for her. And I think that like, whatever she's doing is working because she could have just been a blip in the radar for sure.

[Lauren]

Well, I think what's interesting is I think Jet is low key. The star of that account, like, she's obviously stunning and has really cute outfits. I think does a great job in her role. But he's what really the people are there for because he's doing all the over the top performance. And if you notice in their ads, he's always in the ads, you can tell the advertisers are like. And they have said this, like when he started being in her content and on video. Video, that's just when. And that's like what it became.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Lauren]

So even though it's like branded as her, it's really kind of him. Interestingly for me, with Pookie, I think.

[Chandler]

Pookie seems genuinely happy as a person. She seems just like sweet and happy and I don't think there's any like, blink twice, you know, if you're miserable Pookie thing. I think where I get icked out is with Jet's performance and with his over the top thing, which I get is maybe now comedy and people love that. But I am just imagining in my own relationship if Ben literally, the camera goes out and he's like. And that's the only time where he's maybe telling me that I look absolutely fire. I mean, maybe he's telling it to her in other times, but I think I would start to just like, wait, do you actually mean this or are you just trying to capture some content? It's real and that's where it could be coming from, a real place. But I think that's when I would just like, I don't know, it just loses some of its luster, frankly.

[Lauren]

He walked up to her at the bar when they met. I know like everything about them. And he said like, you're the most beautiful girl in. He said she looked just like a princess. And that's what he was.

[Chandler]

No, I like all my husband was like, the hottest thing to him was a princess. Woof.

[Kate Kennedy]

I, I, I think there's some people that like that type of by the book romance and some people that find it insincere. And I think, yeah, to me it's a bit off putting, but I Think it works because unrealistic extremes work on the Internet. And people being like, get yourself a guy that treats you like Jet does. And, you know, the way he showers her with, like, flowers and TED and bagel sandwiches is kind of like, oh, my gosh, it's ripe for people tagging them being like, dreams, goals, whatever. But I also think that, like, with influencers, you can't break the fourth wall in your mind, or else it all becomes insane. Because whenever I watch, I get served a lot of Day in the Life videos of moms, and people, like, live for them. But I'm sitting here thinking, so you woke up normal. You set up your tripod, got back in bed, took off the covers, and was like, oh. I'm like, just even that alone, to me, is odd behavior.

[Chandler]

No, I. As someone who has tried to film Some Day in the Life content, you know, to feed the machine and not really been able to successfully capture anything. Like, I would like to know how they do it. Cause it just. It does also boggle my mind for that exact same reason of, like, the waking up shot is really crazy to me.

[Lauren]

My favorite is, like, either a couple so in love together, and they're, like, having a romantic moment, and it's like, can't believe I met the man of my dreams, or what. So they've, like, set up the tripod for that romantic moment, or, like, the couple and she's, like, crying in his arms, and it's like they're filming it. Yeah. And they're filming, and it's like he holds space for me or whatever, and it's just like, oh, my gosh.

[Kate Kennedy]

Yeah. You have to imagine behind the scenes, I mean, when he comes in and he brings her bagel sandwiches, like, he has to say outside the door, I'm about to come in.

[Lauren]

Oh, for sure. And she always has a perfect blowout lip gloss done. Oh, completely.

[Kate Kennedy]

Like, Pookie's lip gloss to me is the smoking gun. Like. Like, as we've been talking, I'm like, God, lip gloss goes away, so what's the point of it? What a racket. Her is always perfection, even post labor. I think she seems sweet. I think she does seem happy. And, yeah, I have. I have such a soft spot for Pookie. I don't know. I'm suspicious of Jet, but what are you gonna do?

[Lauren]

I feel like this conversation has been harmful for me because I feel like it's unlocked something for me, which is a lot of his love for her is based on her physicality. And they don't not her mind. Not her mind. Like, he always talks about how he loves that she looks like a princess. And maybe there's something that's not good about that.

[Chandler]

I think, like, if Ben told me that I looked like a princess repeatedly, I would be.

[Lauren]

He says that, like, every video.

[Chandler]

Like.

[Lauren]

Yes, Basically.

[Chandler]

It's weird. Once again, if that is your man's, like, fantasy, that is gross to me. That is like. That is a turn off.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Kate Kennedy]

He's cartoonish in his. Yes.

[Chandler]

He's like, there is like a Gaston to him. To death. Yeah.

[Kate Kennedy]

And some people might like that. And I think the Internet gets a kick out of that, and that's part of the success. But I do think that in reality. Yeah. Implementation of that type of romance is incredibly unnatural.

[Chandler]

Totally.

[Lauren]

Well, this has been. This recording.

[Chandler]

Wait, last. I have to say one more.

[Lauren]

I don't want you guys to talk. Keep talking.

[Chandler]

The shopping for Pookie as well is very odious.

[Lauren]

Oh, I love that.

[Chandler]

Where it's like, I can't do a good job. But, you know, he's in Palm beach and he's going to get something.

[Kate Kennedy]

I don't shop.

[Lauren]

Bye. Bye.

[Chandler]

Yeah. Anyway.

[Lauren]

But, you know, it is sweet.

[Chandler]

He does seem like a very doting father, and so I'll give him that. I think that's sweet.

[Kate Kennedy]

Listen, there are worse things you can be than doting, you know, sandwich wielding, calling you a princess. Like, it's not that. It's just, I think, like, it's a different. It's a type of affection that you don't see very often these days.

[Chandler]

Right.

[Kate Kennedy]

And it's entertaining. It's. But yeah, I think we kind of are looking under the hood.

[Chandler]

Yes.

[Kate Kennedy]

And I support you in not doing so.

[Lauren]

I know there's something about their content. It's like it's the same as Ballerina Farm. Like, I actually don't know. Now it's dawning on me that maybe in the moment it would feel disingenuous and I would not feel loved for who I truly am, but more of, like, my presentation. But it's like Ballerina Farm. Even though in my head, intellectually, I know this is rigorous work and it's probably wouldn't feel great to do. There's like a delusion where I'm like, actually, it's just the land. It's the wind, it's the sunlight, it's the soil. It's Mother Earth. It's where we came from. And it's very peaceful. But a lot of people are like, looks like my nightmare. Anyway, I have a lot of delusions. This has been such a fun episode. Kate. Where can people find you? They need to listen to your podcast. We have an episode that's live today where we're gonna be chatting about so many similar top so we should probably let everyone know that they can go listen.

[Kate Kennedy]

Yes. To be continued at My podcast is Be there in five on Instagram Akennedy and my book is one in a millennial and it just came out in paperback and thank you guys for having me. You guys are so much fun. I feel like I listen to your podcast so being here in person, what a dream.

[Lauren]

Oh thank you.

[D]

Hey moms, have you ever felt like there's more to motherhood than what we're told? Then you need to check out our podcast, Moms Ask why. Hosted by Chelsea Jules and Brittany Whitney, Moms Ask why dives deep into the tough questions surrounding motherhood. Our mission? To educate, inspire and empower moms like you to take charge of your children's health with real talk, expert insight and actionable advice. This is the podcast every mom needs in her playlist. Because sometimes the best way to be a great mom is to ask why. Follow Rate Interview Moms Ask why Now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

[E]

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