← Pop Apologists
Pop Apologists
263: Meghan Markle & the History of Influencers ft. Taylor Lorenz
01:03:00
Lauren and Chan are joined by Taylor Lorenz to discuss all things related to internet culture. They dive into the following: The Socialite Rank (3:32), the social media ecosystem (11:33), parasocial relationships (14:35),  aspirational...
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- [00:00]
Chandler
Get the Angel Reese Special at McDonald's. Now let's break it down. My favorite barbecue sauce, American cheese, crispy bacon, pickles, onions, and a sesame seed bun, of course. And don't forget the fries and a drink. Sound good?
- [00:13]
Brittany
I participate in restaurants for a limited time.
- [00:15]
Chandler
I can say to my new Samsung.
- [00:17]
Brittany
Galaxy S25 Ultra, hey, find a keto.
- [00:20]
Taylor Lorenz
Friendly restaurant nearby and text it to Beth and Steve. And it does without me lifting a.
- [00:24]
Chandler
Finger so I can get in more.
- [00:25]
Brittany
Squats anywhere I can. 1, 1, 2, 3. Will that be cash or credit? Credit.
- [00:33]
Taylor Lorenz
4 Galaxy S25 Ultra.
- [00:35]
Chandler
The AI companion that does the heavy lifting. So you can do you get yours@samsung.com.
- [00:41]
Taylor Lorenz
Compatible select apps requires Google Gemini account.
- [00:43]
Chandler
Results may vary based on input.
- [00:44]
Taylor Lorenz
Check responses for accuracy.
- [00:46]
Brittany
The people who are like, she's so rich. You know, she recommends things that are outrageously expensive. It's kind of like, yeah, exactly, she's super rich.
- [00:54]
Taylor Lorenz
They're going to be rich people.
- [00:55]
Brittany
My favorite Gwyneth Paltrow quote is, I can't pretend to make $25,000 a is true. And do we want her to? No, we really do not.
- [01:05]
Taylor Lorenz
We don't.
- [01:11]
Brittany
Well, well, well. We are so excited because today we have Taylor Lorenz joining Pop Apologists. Taylor is a former New York Times and Washington Post reporter who covers Internet culture. She wrote the book Extremely the Untold Story of Fame, Influence and Power on the Internet. She hosts the Power User podcast, and Taylor writes a substack news called User Mag, which we follow and love.
- [01:34]
Chandler
Thank you.
- [01:35]
Brittany
Welcome to the show.
- [01:36]
Chandler
Thanks for having me.
- [01:37]
Taylor Lorenz
Of course.
- [01:38]
Brittany
I have to tell you, I was listening to Extremely Online. It is so captivating. It is such a good book. It's so informational and educational. But I also feel like it's like if you grew up on the Internet, it's just like so profoundly interesting to hear how this all came to be.
- [01:55]
Taylor Lorenz
I feel like it like, fills in the gaps. It's like I'm taking a college course on like, the Internet experience. I lived as like a teenager and it makes me feel smarter, like looking back at that, like, critical time that.
- [02:07]
Chandler
We all, like, live through, it's kind of crazy. I know. I heard from so many people. I think if you're like 40 and under, you experience so many of these online moments like dramageddon or like vine shutting down or whatever, but you know, you're not paying attention to the context in real time. And it's like there was just so. Yeah, it was just there was so much that happened. I had so much fun writing it. It was like, down memory lane. Yeah.
- [02:29]
Brittany
I mean, it's like a PhD dissertation. It a thick book.
- [02:33]
Chandler
I know. And it was twice as long. I had to cut it in half. I went so deep. There was, like, a whole chapter on Reddit that I had to cut. I mean, it just was, like, too long.
- [02:42]
Brittany
Yeah.
- [02:42]
Chandler
But I hope I got everything good in there.
- [02:44]
Brittany
Yeah. So, worth reading. I was listening to it on Spotify for anyone who wants to do that as well. Just so impressive. Wait, can we all just take a moment to, like, collectively, I guess, have a moment of relief for certain social media platforms that went extinct and we didn't have to, like, hustle for, like. I'm just thinking about moments when I. When vine was going on, and I was like, if I really got it together and could make Vines, you know, this could actually work. This was, like, I don't know, 20 years ago.
- [03:10]
Chandler
You guys want to know? I ran the People magazine Vine account.
- [03:13]
Brittany
You did?
- [03:13]
Chandler
Yeah. That was my job in 2015, I think.
- [03:17]
Taylor Lorenz
Yeah. Vine, like, a little bit predated me. I just remember in high school, people had it, and I feel like, for whatever reason, I don't know, we were, like, raised very religious, and, like, I just feel like I wasn't allowed to use my smartphone to its, like, fullest capacity because our parents were, like, you know, afraid of pornography. I thought I was gonna be looking at pornography anyway, but no, Vine. That was, like, a huge thing. I mean, I'm also just glad that we don't have to, like, scrub the Internet of, like, any truly embarrassing, like, early posts for, like, AIM or, like, Tumblr or, like. I mean, I was definitely on Tumblr, but I was reposting.
- [03:49]
Chandler
I had to delete my Tumblr.
- [03:51]
Taylor Lorenz
Yeah, I mean, I shudder to think what I was reposting. I do feel like it was mostly just, like, the Strokes content or, like, I don't know. I think my. My Tumblr name actually is so embarrassing. Was.
- [04:01]
Brittany
Don't say it.
- [04:01]
Taylor Lorenz
Are you ready? No, I'm. I'm ready. It's fine. Go. Look, I don't think I reposted anything problematic. I'm not a problematic person. Red Combat Boots. How chic is that?
- [04:11]
Brittany
I mean, like, pretty.
- [04:13]
Taylor Lorenz
Pretty chic and indie.
- [04:14]
Brittany
Like a rain puddle.
- [04:15]
Taylor Lorenz
Yeah, just, like. It was, like, a very 2014 name anyway.
- [04:18]
Brittany
Well, okay. Going back to Extremely online. So one of my favorite parts of the book that starts out with is the first moment that women of, like, the upper echelons of society experience their Identities exposed online. And there's a website. What was it called?
- [04:33]
Chandler
Socialite Rank.
- [04:34]
Brittany
Socialite Rank. And you would think so Socialite Rank was this website where. Or maybe you should explain it. You're the expert.
- [04:40]
Chandler
Yeah, well, it was this website that blew up in the mid 2000s. I think it was like 2005. It was pre recession, and it was an anonymous website. It was a blog that basically ranked the socialites. So all the New York City socialites, like Tinsley Mortimer at that time, Olivia Palermo, like Fabiola Barisa, it was like all these women that were, like icons in the mid 2000 socialite world were getting ranked and people were commenting and they were taking photos. You know, that was also the age when photos first started to be put, like Getty Images was being put on the Internet, like Patrick McMullen was putting photos online. So people were getting this view into, like, these parties that they never would have. And it caused absolute chaos.
- [05:25]
Brittany
One interesting thing was you would think that those women would be like, we have a lot of wealth to protect, a lot of privacy concerns. We don't want to be on here. But instead, it was almost like it was a race to the top. They wanted that top spot. They wanted to be ranked, which is very surprising.
- [05:39]
Chandler
It became this competition where they wanted to be number one, because, of course. And there's this iconic. I think it was 2007 New York Magazine cover story on when all of this blew up and it was revealed who was behind it because everyone assumed that it must be another socialite. So it was kind of this, like, who is it out of us?
- [05:57]
Brittany
Like, who's in our circle exposing us?
- [05:58]
Chandler
Exactly. And so this New York magazine story was called the Number One Girl. And it was about. It just sort of documented what I wrote about in the book, which was this, like, chaotic fight to, like, basically be ranked, which I just thought it was such a good metaphor for kind of the way that we all live now. And just the way that social media, this was like, way pre social media. But it was like how it all ended up.
- [06:21]
Brittany
Well, and what they discovered was that it was not someone within their circle.
- [06:26]
Chandler
It was like two random Russian immigrants. Right.
- [06:30]
Brittany
And what you said in the book was like, these are people that, you know, these socialites really, honestly wouldn't be super interested in their opinion otherwise. But all of a sudden, they were just, like, racing for these people's validation. And that was itself, I think, very intriguing.
- [06:45]
Chandler
Yeah, I just thought it was. It was sort of this example of, like, for the first time, an anonymous Random, basically, two nobodies could upend this sort of, like, social hierarchy. And also, like, we are all basically judged by randoms on the Internet of, like, people that we probably wouldn't care about their opinion if we knew who they were, but yet we take it to heart. So, yeah, it was. It was fun to go back and report on that.
- [07:12]
Brittany
No, it's such an interesting phenomenon. And it's so interesting how I think that people generally want that attention. They want that fam. They want that notoriety. Like, it's a part of human nature that is maybe some people call it, like, unsavory, but it's just something that seems to like, what do they say? Like, you can get money and you get power, but, like, fame? Is that one thing that people also still seem to chase. Like, you think about, like, a Kathy Hilton joining Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. It just. The hunger for it can be like, a part of people's DNA.
- [07:42]
Taylor Lorenz
Right.
- [07:43]
Brittany
The thirst, if you will.
- [07:44]
Taylor Lorenz
What's interesting about that website is, like, maybe before that, you could compare it to, like, a People magazine or like a publication was like, dispensing of these. But suddenly it was, like, in the hands of the Internet. And then it was also not about, like, a list actors, which is kind of like all the general society maybe cared about or like, you know, but now it was like, anybody could care about these, like, random New Yorkers who you wouldn't otherwise be exposed to.
- [08:07]
Chandler
Yeah. And I talked about the relationship with the media that these socialites had previously. It was very much like give and take, and they had these sort of inside deals, and it was like, okay, maybe she got too drunk at that party, but we're not really going to, like, report on that. The first woman to sort of. That where that really changed was Paris Hilton, because she was. And I write about the early days of reality tv, too, and, like, how she became kind of this fascination and figure with Page Six and the New York Post. But, yeah, I mean, the rest of them were just like these rich Manhattan women that, like, previously had no real public profile outside, like, the benefit balls that they went to.
- [08:42]
Taylor Lorenz
Right. Like, it's just so funny. Like Tinsley, who I was only introduced to. To through Real Housewives of New York City, but I had no idea. I mean, I guess they talk about this a little bit in the show, but, like, I just didn't know how far back her, like, stardom went.
- [08:56]
Chandler
That was really, like, her origin story.
- [08:58]
Taylor Lorenz
Crazy, that.
- [08:59]
Chandler
And that was when she was married to Topper Mortimer. And I Mean, socialite rank made her and Olivia Palermo famous. And I think it's so funny, too, because both of them ended up going sort of like becoming influencers, but in different ways. Like, she went the reality TV route. Olivia also was on reality. She was on. I think it was the City. But it's just funny how, like, when you were famous at that time, the only thing that there really was to do was, like, get sucked up into the reality TV ecosystem. Like, there was no, like, social media. Social media to, like, really launch your brand on or, like, monetize or, you.
- [09:30]
Taylor Lorenz
Know, I mean, there was no way for you to really control it. You would go via the way of, like, either a snarky website or I guess, like, the publications that were putting out the photos.
- [09:38]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [09:38]
Brittany
Which it just is. Again, back to the point of, like, these women who have everything, they still. They don't care. They're like, I don't care if I have no editorial control, I'll go on a reality show where I could be villainized. I will kind of do whatever it takes, because it doesn't matter if I'm, like, the daughter of a real estate tycoon like Olivia Palermo is, or if I'm, like, very. You know, if I'm born into a lot of wealth like Tinsley Mortimer. I still. I want this extra thing, right?
- [10:04]
Taylor Lorenz
Well, yeah. And this extra thing is to, like, be beloved or at least to be known by the public.
- [10:09]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [10:09]
Taylor Lorenz
You know, and then you have, like, people like us who have to hustle.
- [10:12]
Brittany
So hard, three reels a for some scraps of comparison.
- [10:19]
Taylor Lorenz
And, like, we talk about this a lot, but now we kind of feel like the ultimate luxury is getting to be offline, fully, you know, and fully not needing to monetize yourself in any way online.
- [10:29]
Chandler
Totally. I feel like there was so much discourse when, like, that New York magazine, the recent cover went viral of, like, that girl, this Alabama sorority girl that was pictured on the COVID of New York Mag. But people found her Instagram, and she had, like. I think she had a locked account with, like, 250 followers or something. Or she locked it very quickly. But people were like, okay, she's, like, probably actually rich, because.
- [10:48]
Brittany
Right.
- [10:48]
Chandler
She only has, like, a couple hundred thousand followers, and that's a couple hundred followers. And that's like, the true luxury status.
- [10:55]
Taylor Lorenz
Of all when you kind of don't have to be thirsty not to, like. Yeah, that much.
- [10:59]
Brittany
But anyway, the other question I have is kind of going back to the first time that these women with these fabulous lives are publicized and it's put online. I wonder how healthy it is as a culture to have a firsthand seat to people with lives that are honestly like, it just looks much easier, much more exquisite, much more. There's much more financial freedom, much more stuff. I feel like, how healthy is it for people to have a firsthand experience of that online of other people? Like, it seems like it generates just a lot of negativity.
- [11:35]
Chandler
I mean, it's such a double edged sword, right? Because in one sense, and I talk about this in the book, like the Internet has been so liberating and I think like, it's allowed this entire generation of people who would never have a voice or access to a platform through the mainstream media to build that platform, obviously for better or worse. And then it brings so much amazing stuff into the world, like these amazing communities that form and like friendships and like true connection. But then it comes with like all of these downsides. And I would say part of the reason it's come with all these downsides too, is that like these platforms, especially in the 2000 and tens as they were growing and competing with each other, prioritized engagement above all else. And sort of like the business incentives at play that have dominated our ecosystem. And I feel like only the past couple years have we had this reckoning with that being like, okay, I want to be more intentional. That's why you're seeing this move towards more closed communities or private groups. People just don't want that everything that you post to be default public, default permanent, and the entire Internet able to weigh in.
- [12:36]
Taylor Lorenz
Right, right. I feel like, as you know, with our small experience, I feel like the more vulnerable content generates so much more buzz and we just like you, honestly. Like, you see how much more it feeds the machine and it's kind of scary. That's the ecosystem.
- [12:51]
Chandler
I know. It's like you have to reveal so much of yourself. And I think that that's another difference between sort of like Internet fame and like traditional fame. Like, if you're sort of traditionally famous, like you are allowed to like go away, you're allowed to like keep parts of yourself private. If you are famous through the Internet, people feel this entitlement to absolutely everything about you. Everything about you.
- [13:12]
Brittany
Yeah.
- [13:13]
Chandler
And it's like, well, you put yourself out there, right? Like you put yourself online. So like, you should be okay with me researching where your aunt works or whatever.
- [13:21]
Brittany
Yeah, right.
- [13:22]
Taylor Lorenz
I feel like the Internet is just now catching on to protein, but I'm just gonna go ahead and come right out and say it. I've been on my protein grind for years and you want to know why I've been on my protein grind.
- [13:32]
Brittany
Clean Simpletes clean some beliefs you guys, this brand has so many incredible products so you can get more protein in. Here's the thing. We all know it helps you build muscle, but I feel like what we don't talk about enough is how good it makes you feel when you're hitting that at least 100 grams of protein a day. You feel better, your energy is better, your skin is glowier, your hair is healthier. Your body really needs this nutrient. And unless you're shoveling piles of meat in your mouth, you gotta be intentional about how you get it.
- [14:02]
Taylor Lorenz
Wow, what a visual. You just painted everyone. Thank goodness you don't have to do that because we have Clean Simple Eats. Go toClean Simple Eats.com and use our code Popapologists.
- [14:11]
Brittany
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- [14:31]
Taylor Lorenz
We've had enough.
- [14:32]
Brittany
We need a platform that just gets us. And to be honest, we've met someone new. They're called Monday.com and it was love at first. Onboarding. Their beautiful dashboards, their customizable workflows got.
- [14:44]
Taylor Lorenz
Us floating on a digital cloud nine so no hard feelings, but we're moving.
- [14:48]
Brittany
On Monday.com, the first work platform you'll love to use. My amazing new Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra.
- [14:57]
Taylor Lorenz
Reduces noise in my concert videos with Galaxy AI taking them from this to this.
- [15:05]
Chandler
Now I have time to bejewel my.
- [15:07]
Taylor Lorenz
Favorite artist faces onto jackets.
- [15:08]
Chandler
This one really captures their eyes. Galaxy S25 Ultra the AI companion that.
- [15:14]
Brittany
Reduces distractions so you can do you.
- [15:17]
Taylor Lorenz
Get yours@samsung.com compatible with common video formats accessible in gallery helps minimize 6 select.
- [15:21]
Chandler
Sounds results for your Galaxy AI features by Samsung 3 through 2025.
- [15:25]
Taylor Lorenz
I always know the early bird is hitting because I will be watching some Instagram reels and I will just start furiously sending them to all my friends and everything I see is funny.
- [15:35]
Brittany
That is honestly one of the best parts about early bird. CBD gummies. They just make whatever you're doing just a little bit easier. They remove the friction in your brain. So whether you're trying to get into a show, enjoy a beautiful meal and not be thinking about your to do list or fall back asleep in the middle of the night. Half an Early Bird. It's kind of a panacea.
- [15:57]
Taylor Lorenz
Absolutely. Couldn't agree more, everyone. If you're new to Early Bird or you've never tried them before, I recommend getting the travel packs because they're a little bit more inexpensive and you can try out all the flavors and just see if they work for you.
- [16:07]
Brittany
Go to earlybirdcbd.com use code pop20 for 20 off your order. And also if you do splurge for a bottle, it'll last you a long time. My favorite flavor is the watermelon. Go to early bird cbd.com use code POP20. Yeah, and I think that that kind of dovetails into the idea of these parasocial relationships where people feel so invested in you. And I certainly have them. Like, I have more parasocial relationships than real relationships.
- [16:33]
Taylor Lorenz
Should you share your biggest parasocial relationship?
- [16:35]
Chandler
I mean, I don't know.
- [16:36]
Brittany
I just think the podcasters I listen to every week that are just.
- [16:39]
Taylor Lorenz
I mean, I think Ballerina Farm is your. Oh, you feel maybe the closest to Hannah.
- [16:44]
Brittany
No. You know, and I feel heavily invested in Ballerina Farm as an account, but I don't consider it a friendship online. Okay. I. When I'm thinking social relationships for myself, I guess I'm just like, positively biased. So it's just all my friends, like, I love listening to Heather McDonald and like Jackie Schimmel and these, like, podcasters. But no, I feel like there's just this interesting thing where as a creator, like you said, Chandler, when you are vulnerable and you share things, it generates a lot more activity.
- [17:10]
Taylor Lorenz
Engagement.
- [17:11]
Brittany
Straight.
- [17:11]
Taylor Lorenz
Yeah.
- [17:11]
Brittany
Which can feel validating and it can come from an authentic place. But I then think also, like, you have to avoid falling into the trap of like, oh, I see that this is generating more engagement and I'm going to do more of this because that in itself is a inauthentic. So there was a quote that you gave where you said, I don't want that relationship with the people who consume my content. Like, it's actually scary to me.
- [17:33]
Chandler
Yeah, I have, like, very. I think. Cause I report on it. I just. Such strict boundaries with what I personally share about my life. And it's actually been hard. I only went independent three months ago and I was just talking to this guy that I work with on like some business stuff. And his number one advice to me was like, you need to incorporate more, like, lifestyle stuff into your content. He was like, people feel like they don't know you as a person, and they're only getting this version of you from different. And it feel. It made me want to jump out of my skin because it's like, it's what you have to do in some ways. But it is so hard to put yourself out there and open yourself up to, like, I don't know, just that sort of feedback. And it feels so vulnerable. And I think also when you shut yourself off, it makes it so much easier. Like right now, when I get so much hate from, I don't know, so many things I write about all these different things, I can easily dismiss it because I'm like, well, they don't really know me. I've actually never really, like, put myself online, like, my actual self. So, like, it feels very separate. And I feel like if I was to, like, put more of myself online, like, I would start taking that stuff more personally.
- [18:36]
Brittany
Yeah, well, I think a lot of the hate online, and there's a quote that you gave, so I'm going to actually just read this really quick that speaks to this. But you said after a particularly vicious media segment about me which completely misrepresented me in the events of my life, this was in an article in Mercury, Claire, you said, I realize that these people don't care about the truth. They don't care about who I actually am. I realized that to them, I'm simply an avatar that they've manufactured, often based on complete fabrications and half truths that they use to push their political agenda or media narrative or to communicate something about themselves. And I had the same revelation about some hate I'd seen online where I just realized, like, this isn't even about the person they're talking about. This is about this person's personal triggers, their insecurities, their projection of an idea that, okay, this person online, that might cause some feelings to stir up in me because they might have, you know, X, Y, or Z. At least in my head. If I say they're a bad person, then it can make me feel better about my own life.
- [19:33]
Chandler
That's what it is. I think it's like, nobody can just be a hater anymore and just, like, admit that they don't like someone. They have to kind of create this, like, moral justification for hating them and be like, actually, I'm a good person because I hate them. So I'm such a good person. And it's like, you could just not like someone. Yeah, I think, like, half of Reddit would be so much happier if they just admitted that, like, Maybe they just don't like this person. And maybe they just for whatever reason just should admit that instead of being like, you know, sort of coming up with these narratives or.
- [20:04]
Brittany
I. I remember there was a moment in my life when I was Chandler, both servers at a restaurant called Communal in Provo, Utah. And there was a moment when I was in the back of the restaurant, like in the alleyway sitting on a milk crate of like 11:30pm I've been working for a full 12 hours. Chandler's like, where is this going? How is this related?
- [20:22]
Taylor Lorenz
I love your naming the restaurant.
- [20:23]
Chandler
Check it out.
- [20:25]
Brittany
Give it a five star review. Shout out. Anyway, I just remember like my pants were so tight because I was like feeling fat that day and like I was just sweaty and gross. I'd worked brunch and dinner and I pulled up on my phone and I just saw like Kendall Jenner doing this like incredible thing, like looking amazing. And I just remember I was like, I gotta unfollow this because it's just, it's painful. And I just feel like. I also wish that people would just literally not pay attention to people who make them feel bad about themselves in their lives. It's just not healthy.
- [20:54]
Taylor Lorenz
But I think you're expecting a lot of these people to have a level of self awareness and like to be evolved enough to realize, oh, this is triggering me, I need to step away. This is actually like a one sided, negative relationship that like they're not, they don't even know I exist. But I agree with you. I think that would in a more.
- [21:10]
Brittany
Perfect world, it almost seems like there's just people who are fueled by hate. Like if you look at YouTube comments and a lot of what's on X, it is just so much vocal fry commentary on any creator, especially women. I saw an article about Demi Moore. The first thing is she's never been a good actress. You know, it's just something about her looks and it's like, is this really humanity?
- [21:32]
Chandler
Well, I feel like, I mean on X too, they throttle it. This is like their whole new agenda. But also that's just like. And I've written so much about this too. But people love to hate women online and like hating women online feels accessible in a way that like hating men doesn't. Sometimes it almost feels like people will get nervous to hate on a man or they just don't hate on man. Like any random E list, like woman will get hate online. And like so much of the Internet is just fueled by misogyny as well, which I think is a huge problem. And trying to, like, separate that out is impossible.
- [22:06]
Taylor Lorenz
I want to ask you kind of going back to what we were just talking about with people feeling very comfortable hating certain influencers or hating, you know, certain online personalities, I guess. What do you make of like the quote unquote trad wife influencers and ballerina farm or like a Nara Smith and some of those influencers who, you know, might just actually trigger people in a certain way? I can maybe speak from experience where it's like, I have an email job and sometimes I'm like, I would like to be baking bread in a pretty dress all day, I guess. Well, yeah. What do you make of that?
- [22:33]
Chandler
I think it's aspirational. Like, people love to hate any aspirational creator. Right? Like, if you're making aspirational content, you're gonna get hate because people are jealous of that lifestyle and that content. Whatever. I think Nara is slightly different than. Well, I guess they're both. I mean, they both also are have like the Mormonism thing, which I think is another sort of thing where it's. People are like, is this sort of coded propaganda for your religion? And there's a lot of speculation and stuff. And then like, I mean, when Hannah did the COVID of Evie, is it Evie that like, weird magazine, English magazine?
- [23:02]
Brittany
No, no.
- [23:03]
Taylor Lorenz
Oh, the latest one, the hot one, where she was looking super sexy.
- [23:05]
Chandler
I think it was. Yes. Yeah. Which is like the milkmaid or whatever.
- [23:08]
Brittany
I have it on my coffee table ir.
- [23:10]
Chandler
Oh, my God. I mean, she looks amazing, but, like, that's like a very, like, political magazine. And like, it's felt like, oh, okay, so is she endorsing this? Like, what is that? And like, I don't know. I love watching those. I mean, I love the aspirational content. I'm into, like, aspirational wellness content. Yeah. But I understand, like, you're miserable, like, you're struggling.
- [23:27]
Taylor Lorenz
I think, like, with my own personal bias, like, I feel like Nara Smith can sometimes make me more upset because so much of it is like, my husband was craving this. Just like so much of it is, like, in service of other people besides her, which I know, like, she is like a million dollar brand. Like, she is the goddess of her own page. But it just. Yeah, it sets me off in a certain.
- [23:48]
Chandler
It irks you because it's also like, there's this woman, Lex de la Rosa, who parodies them. She's like, yes, she's really funny.
- [23:54]
Brittany
Yeah, she is so funny.
- [23:55]
Chandler
But like, I. I think she just does a good job of Triggering people that don't realize that it's a parody. Because so much of what Nara and, like, Hannah do, it's almost parody level, where you're like, come on, girl.
- [24:06]
Brittany
Like, well, it's so funny because Nara doesn't trigger me because I do believe it's a parody. Think she's in on the joke?
- [24:11]
Taylor Lorenz
I maybe is in on the joke, but I don't feel like she engages with the content in a way that I think is, like, that makes her likable. Like, I sound like a hater on random.
- [24:20]
Brittany
You think she lacks a wink in her content?
- [24:21]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [24:22]
Taylor Lorenz
Like, I feel like when people are commenting, like, this is so amazing. Like, she's just very sincere and earnest in all of her content, which I think makes it feel like she doesn't want part of her brand to be parody. She wants it to be, like, extreme, but she doesn't want to, like, be seen as someone who's, like, parodying.
- [24:37]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [24:37]
Taylor Lorenz
Does that make sense or, like, is.
- [24:39]
Brittany
Trying to be, like, facetious or.
- [24:41]
Taylor Lorenz
Yeah. Humorous. I don't think that she brings a level of humor to anything. I think that, like, people then bring that to the comment section, but she only, like. Now I'm revealing that I care too much, but, like, I feel like she engages with comments in a very sincere and earnest way, not, like, in a wink way. Yeah.
- [24:55]
Brittany
Yeah. Interesting. Well, we're gonna talk about that later with your therapist. I have a co session schedule. No, but I think that's kind of going back to the parasocial relationship problem. Like, there's a danger there, right. Where, like, once you get people too invested in your life, then all of a sudden they're showing up at your house. Like, Ballerina Farm's house is on Google Maps. It's weird.
- [25:18]
Taylor Lorenz
Well, and.
- [25:18]
Brittany
Okay. And she has, like, 30 million followers across platforms. Why?
- [25:22]
Taylor Lorenz
She said, like, people, like, drive up the driveway.
- [25:25]
Brittany
Yes, that was in the. That was in the article.
- [25:27]
Chandler
That's scary. I think it's just a fascination. And also, I think people want to see, like. And this is true for any aspirational creator. It's like, is it real? How much of it is created for the camera versus how much is reality? And I think that's also why people love these sort of, like, takedown type stories or, like, the real story, like, she's secretly miserable. Because it's like, they want to know the truth. You know, who knows what the real truth is? But it's like, well, they want to.
- [25:52]
Taylor Lorenz
Know that you actually can't be that perfect.
- [25:54]
Chandler
Exactly. Yeah. It's not like, it's not. No one's life is actually that good. Like everyone goes through struggles well and.
- [26:01]
Brittany
Also all content is produced and it's.
- [26:03]
Chandler
In so much work.
- [26:04]
Taylor Lorenz
I think that's another huge issue is that people think that it's not work, it's too easy and that their life is too good. But in reality, anyone who's creating content knows that it's. It's a slog.
- [26:14]
Chandler
It's a huge slog.
- [26:16]
Taylor Lorenz
Yeah.
- [26:16]
Brittany
I just have to say this disclaimer. I received a DM from someone that said that they tried to go to Ballerina Farm to like get milk cuz she had like a storefront or whatever. But they pulled like they drove up and they like realized it was her house and they like turned around. That was a DM I received. I'm not putting in Ballerina Farm on Google Maps. Personally, like just want to make thank.
- [26:36]
Taylor Lorenz
You for making that clear. I was not going there, but thank you for. Yeah, coming clean.
- [26:40]
Brittany
I just don't want to seem like I'm a crazy stalker.
- [26:41]
Taylor Lorenz
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- [28:43]
Chandler
I can say to my new Samsung.
- [28:45]
Brittany
Galaxy S25 Ultra, hey, find a keto.
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Taylor Lorenz
Friendly restaurant nearby and text it to Beth and State. And it does without me lifting a.
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Brittany
Finger so I can get in more.
- [28:53]
Chandler
Squats anywhere I can.
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Brittany
1, 2, 3. Will that be cash or credit? Credit.
- [29:01]
Chandler
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Brittany
That does the heavy lifting.
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Chandler
So you can do you get yours@samsung.com.
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Taylor Lorenz
Compatible with select apps. Requires Google Gemini account Results may vary based on input. Check responses for accuracy.
- [29:15]
Brittany
One thing that I think is really interesting when it comes to like these influencers and kind of the way that women love to see their downfall as we discussed.
- [29:22]
Chandler
Yes.
- [29:23]
Brittany
During Paris Fashion Week, I think it was last year or two years ago, there was this party where all these influencers were turned away and it was like this big moment and people were like, yes, they really aren't great. Like I'm so glad we realized it. And the thing I think about that that's, I don't know, I hope is interesting is why are we cheering on a women being rejected and experiencing failure? But also like why do we want to go back to a culture where you in order to be successful, need to get the approval of Harvey Weinstein, of all these gatekeepers. Don't we want a world where you can start an Instagram account and support your family as a woman? Like, don't like I think about the women that are like in different generations in our family and maybe the careers they would have had if they had experienced like a much more democratized economic world?
- [30:13]
Chandler
Absolutely. And I write in the book about the concept of the Instagram husband which emerged in the like early to mid 2010s and it was really when you started to see like the labor relationship flipped where these women were making so much money from their influencing and men started to support that. And the backlash and just the cultural, like, commentary around it and how it sort of arose at this time when there was like, so much hatred and there is so much hatred still. But even back in, like 2015, 2016, that's when you saw the. These accounts, like Influencers in the Wild, which first emerged, which used to only feature women. And like, kind of has tried to diversify now, but like, yeah, it's this idea of like, get back in your place. Like, who made you? Which is so funny because this is what the earliest women bloggers dealt with was people that are just like, who do you think you are?
- [30:59]
Brittany
Well, yeah, like, get back in your place. Get down back here with us. Like, you don't belong on that pedestal. Also, it's like when you talked about in your book when the mommy bloggers started monetizing, like, can you explain what happened?
- [31:12]
Chandler
Yeah. So in the early 2000s, like, there's all these blogs emerging, and I talk about the first influencers which were mommy bloggers. I want to make a distinction between, like, mommy bloggers of that time and like, family influencers of today, because it was actually radically different. Like, these were Gen X moms. They were incredibly isolated. Being a mother is obviously so difficult. Women's media at that time. I went back for researching my book and read all of these women's magazines from the early 2000s. It was wild to me. Like, I mean, it's just worth doing. Like, I wish they had some sort of, like, exhibit showing people this stuff because you could not believe what was being published in, like, 2003. It reads as if it's from 1960. And especially the way they talked about motherhood. It was all about just getting your baby body or, you know, your pre baby body back. It was like, horrible. And so these women went to the Internet and they were like, hey, is anyone else, like, struggling to breastfeed? Like, does anybody else get depressed sometimes? Like, does anyone else sometimes, like, hate their husband? And at the time, these things were revolutionary. They were not talking about postpartum depression in these magazines. They were not acknowledging the reality some other husband. So these women started blogging. Most of those blogs were anonymous. Most of them did not even have pictures because it was so hard to get you to, like, take a digital camera and like, manually upload it. A lot of them use pseudonyms for the kids. It was not like, what it is now. It was really about, like, their experience of motherhood the most famous one in 2004, Heather Armstrong, another. I think she was Mormon or Utah, like sort of adjacent.
- [32:37]
Brittany
We actually grew up Mormon too, for some context.
- [32:40]
Chandler
Oh my gosh.
- [32:40]
Taylor Lorenz
Yeah, we're very familiar.
- [32:42]
Chandler
It's so interesting. I want to read like a whole book on like just the amount of like Mormon impact on influencer culture is. Cannot be like overstated. But like.
- [32:51]
Taylor Lorenz
Yeah.
- [32:51]
Chandler
Anyway, so Heather monetized. Heather put banner ads on her blogs. Mind you, this woman was doing this as a full time job, had like millions of readers. It was like she had committed. I mean, people tried to get her children taken away from her. Like for the banner ad. Yes, it was like the, it was a huge backlash and she was like, basically I'm doing this full time.
- [33:11]
Brittany
Right.
- [33:11]
Chandler
I just want to cover like a few costs and I'm just gonna put banner ads. And yeah, it was like, I mean, it was this, like, how dare you? Yeah, like, shut up. And. And all of those women received so much hate and they were doing something really feminist. They were challenging media. And ultimately it made traditional women's magazines get with the picture and start acknowledging these things and start talking about all of these issues that they had brought to the forefront.
- [33:35]
Brittany
Yeah, no, it's just so, it's so fascinating that people get so up in arms about women making money.
- [33:43]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [33:43]
Brittany
And it's like, we don't like this. We don't want to see you reap some economic rewards. And also this content because it looks easy. We believe it should be free to us and your time is owed to us. Like we experience that for having premium content. And it's very interesting if people just feel very entitled to your time and energy. And honestly, like money, like it's money to make this content.
- [34:04]
Taylor Lorenz
I think two people are looking at like you're just telling your own story like that that should be free to them. I don't think they deem that as like, as work or as a skill or anything that should be monetized. You know, a lot of people, I guess I'm making a generalization or like sharing photos of your family. Why should that make you any money? You know, I think there's like some virtue assignment happening with like, with the, the type of work that influencers do.
- [34:28]
Chandler
100%. I think it's just like, it does seem so easy, but it's so hard. And a lot of these people have tried and failed themselves. And I think they feel frustrated or they're like, why isn't that me? Like, why am I not in that position.
- [34:42]
Brittany
And you know, we should probably acknowledge though that like for every very loud hater, there are so many wonderful people online who support creators and who are like cheering creators on and are. I just want to say that I don't want people listening to think that. We just think that everyone who listens to the show is of this ilk. Actually it is the minority. It just can be a vocal minority in your own brain and it can.
- [35:03]
Taylor Lorenz
Be a loud minority, you know.
- [35:05]
Brittany
Yeah, yeah.
- [35:06]
Chandler
I was surprised when I wrote the book just how many women quit the Internet over hate. Really it was just such a common theme is like I would go back and look at all these women and I write about actually this woman Julia Allison, who was like one of the first multi platform influencers. And I mean, yeah, just like so many just ended up stepping away. I mean what's changed more recently too is that you can have that direct monetization a little bit more. And I think people are more willing to support creators. Like I think that the culture has changed so much in the past 20 years too. And like people have moved away from like an advertising based model towards more subscription model too. So it's like it's a little bit more direct. It's just, it's all sort of changed so much. Yeah.
- [35:44]
Brittany
And I remember you said in your book that when the FTC said that sponsored content has to be disclosed, you absolutely cannot. Just because that was like the norm. The norm was to truly post ads and like no one knew and it was like hidden.
- [35:57]
Taylor Lorenz
It was like a subtext at best.
- [35:59]
Brittany
Yeah.
- [35:59]
Chandler
They didn't even acknowledge. Yeah.
- [36:02]
Brittany
And when. So when they transitioned and said no, the FTC says you have to disclose something's an ad, you have to put hashtag ad. All of that. People thought, okay, this is, it's over, it's all done. And people are going to be so put off by the fact that creators are doing these ads. But it was very surprising actually what you said is that not only was there not even a decline in performance, but people seem to like engage a lot with the ads. And then it became this thing where. And this is happening to this day. Ads lend creators credibility and there will be creators doing ads that are actually not even real real because they want it to look like they have an.
- [36:36]
Chandler
Ad Christian Dior campaign in the book where it was, I think it was 2018 or 2017, Christian Dior re released their saddlebag and did this big influencer campaign. They sent it to. I think it was like 150 influencers and it was shortly after this FTC thing, whatever. So they all had to use the same sort of, like, disclosure language. And it became so popular that everybody, all these other influencers started buying the bags and then making fake ads. Ads and writing fake disclosures. Because having a brand deal with Christian Dior is seen as so aspirational that so now. And I wrote about this for the Atlantic years ago, too, of just like, luxury brands struggling because this is a constant problem now where people are acting like they have sponsorships when they don't. Because sponsorships are the new sort of status symbol. And I think actually media, like traditional media, used to be that status symbol and that gatekeeper. And now I think it's brand partnerships that offer that legitimacy.
- [37:29]
Brittany
Is it illegal to do that?
- [37:31]
Chandler
No.
- [37:31]
Brittany
And do so?
- [37:32]
Chandler
No.
- [37:32]
Brittany
And our brands kind of, like, great.
- [37:34]
Taylor Lorenz
A lot of them.
- [37:35]
Chandler
I mean, some of them are. When I talk to, like, a bunch of luxury people at, like, YSL some other place, I wrote. I can't remember all the brands I talked to, but most of the luxury brands were frustrated because they couldn't control the aesthetics. And there was a lot of people that they didn't do partnerships with that they were getting backlash or partnering with. And they're like, no, this person just pretended to partner with us.
- [37:55]
Taylor Lorenz
It's so funny because now I think if I were to see someone post, like, I didn't know this at all, and if I saw someone posting, like, hashtag YSL and then if they added hashtag ad, I would truly have assumed they're getting money for this story post.
- [38:09]
Chandler
No, that is cr.
- [38:10]
Taylor Lorenz
I had no idea about that.
- [38:11]
Chandler
It's more common than you think. And a lot of people. So after that was sort of like that backlash with the luxury, like, the Christian Dior thing was like a. That caused drama. Now people will do it with sort of secondary brand, like, smaller brands. And a lot of those brands love it. And sometimes that's a way for them ultimately, like, people will start doing ads, and then they will start doing it. They'll be like, actually, we love the free ads that you've been doing. Like, we will partner with you.
- [38:36]
Brittany
Interesting. Wow. Fake it till you make it, baby. When we first started the pod, we would do fake ads, but they were, like, clearly fake. Clearly no one knows about us and no one's sponsoring us. But we're just gonna. We're gonna do an ad for Google right now. And it would just be like a satire ad anyway.
- [38:50]
Taylor Lorenz
We were really just trying. A lot of things stuck.
- [38:53]
Brittany
I feel like they were kind of funny. They were just like, do you have any questions that you want answered? Maybe try Google. Maybe it was funnier in my head. Anyway, so you have said that you think memes in viral content can shape our societal values. I would love for you to explain more.
- [39:08]
Chandler
Yeah, I think that for what we make viral and like the way that we express ourselves through memes and stuff, it's a reflection of our values and kind of also a reflection of like what we're putting our attention into and, and where the conversation is happening. Like what conversation, what topics are getting talked about. And I mean, memes have just proven to be also just such powerful like messaging formats and stuff. It's been so interesting to see kind of like how people have tried to leverage virality. There used to be this idea that like being viral was not like you couldn't monetize. Right. Like Alex from Target or whatever I write about him. Like the biggest thing you could do is like go on Ellen and maybe sell some merch. And now you see like I don't know, the hawk to a girl. I know she got canceled for her crypto scam, but it's like she speed ran that like viral fame cycle like so quickly.
- [39:56]
Taylor Lorenz
There's very clearly, you know, now a pathway where it's like, okay, first, then you get a few sponsorships and you maybe start whatever.
- [40:03]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [40:03]
Taylor Lorenz
But to this idea that memes like, you know, reflect or shape societal values, I think one huge recent example of that is like Luigi and just like the way that the conversation online was just like idolizing him and everything just reflected the general distaste people have for big healthcare.
- [40:24]
Chandler
And it was so interesting to see that verse the mainstream media, which had the complete opposite take and like how completely out of step those like mainstream news orgs were with the public sentiment.
- [40:37]
Taylor Lorenz
Right, right.
- [40:38]
Brittany
I also feel like it just clearly indicated this like widespread, just real problem of the discrepancy in wealth and people's access to healthcare and just societal dis ease and like late stage capitalism like you've discussed. And it just shows a little bit of like a sea change in how people perceive those in power and how they might even cheer on the death of someone like that, like Brian Thompson.
- [41:04]
Taylor Lorenz
I was literally walking up the subway steps today and like Free Luigi is like written on the subway tiles.
- [41:09]
Brittany
It's just.
- [41:10]
Taylor Lorenz
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- [42:49]
Brittany
What do you think about AI creators and like the future being AI podcasts, AI creators? Like I feel like when it comes to all of that stuff, I do think that people really don't want to feel like they're listening to a robot. Like they don't want to feel like they're listening to a computer. I don't think they want to think they're looking at a computer's taste. I think that a huge value of the Internet is the connection point is that social bond. If it's a parasocial bond. And I, I don't know, part of me feels like with a lot of these kind of like dystopian visions of the future where people just live with their AR goggles on or AV goggles on, they don't actually come to pass. Like Apple, like basically is canceling their augmented reality glasses or goggles. It's kind of over. NFTs are done. No one actually really cares about having digital art and A digital gallery people can view. So I think sometimes maybe like these calls that for the future being so technological, are like a little bit it extreme or unwarranted.
- [43:49]
Chandler
I agree with you. I wrote a piece like years ago about this when this sort of first started to come out about it was like related to Lil Mikayla, the sort of original like AI influencer that was really just like a CGI girl. I sort of end the book, not to spoil it, but I sort of end the book talking about like the human need for connection. And that's ultimately what content creators provide is this like connection. And that is what they're seeking too is connection. And like it's this like base human need that the Internet fulfills in a way that at a scale that's never been seen before. And I do think that there's a huge amount of like sort of commodity content that's just like informational content that people would probably. Sure, like listen to AI podcasts because like I gotta like cram and learn about this like really quick. But for everything else. Yeah, people want that like human parasocial relationship. They want to feel like they can engage. And when you think of like virtual influencers or whatever too, I think a lot of people think of these like AI generated avatars. And again, I'm sure those people will be doing ads. Like, I'm sure they'll have like AI generated, like product, you know, reviews and stuff, or like showing. But you can think of meme accounts as virtual influencers. Like meme accounts are not a personified sort of like person, but it is a personality, sort of a digital personality that exists that people know that they come to develop a bond with. That's not a person, but it's a. It's a personality. Right. And so I think that like what we will see is maybe things like that where it's like it is human curated. Maybe it's not a person, but the account still has a personality and you bond with that personality.
- [45:18]
Brittany
Yeah. And I mean, and maybe I'm just discounting how good this stuff can get, right? Where maybe there's a reality where it's so good that people don't realize it's.
- [45:27]
Chandler
I think it'll be so good that we won't have to record these types of things in person.
- [45:31]
Brittany
Yeah.
- [45:32]
Chandler
Like, I mean, so many people I already talked to are already making these like digital clones of themselves because they don't have time to shoot a video and they want to do a quick video and then that's crazy.
- [45:41]
Brittany
Yeah, they're making a digital clone of. Wait, what?
- [45:44]
Chandler
Wait, yeah, so there's a thing. Maybe I should write about it. I don't know how much people know, but so, yeah. So you can sort of like clone yourself. You can make this, like, digital clone of yourself.
- [45:51]
Taylor Lorenz
Like an avatar.
- [45:52]
Chandler
An avatar. But it looks exactly like you. Like, you record all, you know, this and then say, you don't have time to film a short video. You want to put yourself, like in the corner with some commentary or something. You can just enter that in and have yourself saying those words and giving the commentary and put it on whatever you want.
- [46:08]
Brittany
Like, that just seems so creepy to me.
- [46:11]
Chandler
It is a little dystopian. Like, I. I mean, I was literally watching. Somebody came up on my Instagram reels recently and I was like, I cannot tell. I was like, 30 minutes. I was like, I cannot tell if this is AI or not. And I think it was AI. Like, there was something slightly uncanny. Because it's not there yet. Like you said, a few years, it will be there.
- [46:28]
Taylor Lorenz
Right, right.
- [46:29]
Chandler
And I do think it's kind of liberating. Like, so much of content creation is so manual and exhausting.
- [46:35]
Brittany
Yeah.
- [46:35]
Chandler
So if you can automate certain things, I think there'll be consumer backlash. Like, if you're automating, like, probably commentary content, but I think product review type stuff will be very interesting.
- [46:46]
Taylor Lorenz
Wow.
- [46:47]
Brittany
Yeah.
- [46:48]
Taylor Lorenz
That's crazy. It's obviously different than if it's a real person doing the real thing, but, like, you're saying a fake thing about a product that you actually didn't like, but you're just like, saying that you liked it to get that check. Heck, I guess, like, I don't know, who am I to be like, oh, you can't have a fake version of yourself doing that because it's gonna be fake no matter what.
- [47:03]
Chandler
I think it just comes down to, like, how we view authenticity and how that changes in relationship to technology. And, like, I mean, all of these things that have you huge backlash. Like, I think that there's like, norms that are established and also each community is willing. Like, you'll see this now with content creators. Like, certain content creators love AI. They use AI tools. All they talk about it all the time. Other people, I mean, just using an AI, like filter, they'll get backlash. You know, like, we hate AI. How could you do this? So I think it's about, like, setting expectations with your audience and what your audience wants from you.
- [47:33]
Brittany
Yeah.
- [47:34]
Taylor Lorenz
Yeah.
- [47:34]
Brittany
I have a question. Sharp left turn. What do you think about Meghan Markle.
- [47:38]
Chandler
Oh, my God. Looking at her, like, video announcing the rebrand. So I have so much. I think, having gotten so much, like, crazy bad media myself, I am sympathetic with every woman that is getting hate online. Like, I. I will always, like, take their side, no matter how terrible they are. I'm like, you know what? Yes, she's probably, like, a lot of the things that maybe people say about her. But, like, I have a soft spot because she receives, like, the Daily Mail's coverage of her is just so deranged. So some of the stuff, like, I don't know. I watched her video. I thought it was a little silly because. And correct me if I'm wrong, but she didn't address, like, the trademark thing.
- [48:11]
Brittany
No, she didn't. Which is.
- [48:12]
Taylor Lorenz
Yeah.
- [48:12]
Chandler
And I thought that that was so. And she said, like, I'm so excited. And there was this line where she's like. And I've had the URL. I've had the name since 2022 or something. And I'm like, why are you even trying to justify it? At least talk about the main. We know why you had to rebrand it. I don't buy this story. So I just feel like it just goes back to this thing where she cannot be authentic. Like, she just can't. And I wish she could at the same time. I was thinking in my head this morning at like, 8am When I was, like, debating this. I was like, well, you know what? If she had said, sorry, guys, like, I effed up, I didn't get the trademark, Like, I'm an idiot at how that would be interpreted by the tabloids, she'd be crucified. She would be crucified. So, like, I kind of understand it, but I think she's just in this impossible position. I also sympathize with her where I'm like, okay, she's a creative person, clearly, she's an actress, whatever. But I'm also like, does she need to be in the public eye? You know, if I were her, I would not be in the public eye.
- [49:05]
Brittany
So I think she's a person that craves being in the public eye.
- [49:07]
Chandler
That's the thing. She craves fame. And that's why she was an actress. Right.
- [49:10]
Brittany
And why she published her blog and why she kind of went after everything she did. And, I mean, we have a podcast. You know, everyone in this room talking right now is in some way seeking digital attention. So I'm a little pot calling the kettle black or whatever. But, yeah, I think that she does need to be Online, she does seek after that. And I personally am excited for as ever. Okay. I'm excited as ever for as ever. I just feel like it might have been not announced in the most authentic way she could have addressed the trademark, the. But I do think it's the most authentic of all of the projects that she has worked on since departing the Palace. This is who she is. She wants the luxury content. She wants the beautiful things. It was. She was doing the Tig before. She's gonna do it now. And it's called as Ever as ever, Baby. I am going to subscribe. I can't wait.
- [49:58]
Chandler
Oh, my God. I want, like, the Montecito Jam recommendations. Whatever. Like, I do think that she has the potential to build, actually, a pretty compelling lifestyle brand. Like, she does have this amazing lifestyle and just, like, the royal, like, adjacency and stuff. I just think she gets such a hard time in the media that she can never. Like, the scrutiny that she's held to is not put on someone like Gwyneth Paltrow or some of these other people that have built aspirational brands. And I think it's really hard to build an aspirational brand when you're sort of, like, constantly in the dregs of tabloids.
- [50:31]
Taylor Lorenz
I think, like, Meghan Markle comes with all this baggage of, like, abdicating or leaving the Royal Family and, like, what people deem as. Like, that was her duty to, like, stick around in England and, like, go do, you know, hospital visits or whatever. Like, I think there's, like, people that they now just, like, deem her and Prince Harry as selfish thrifters. Yeah, selfish. Who just are, like, we just want to go live in California.
- [50:51]
Chandler
I don't blame them at all. That would be, like, the first thing I. I mean, I would never marry into the Royal Family, but, like, I don't blame them at all. And then the more that I found out about that world, my first media job was actually at the Daily Mail. Oh, no way. Yeah. It was wild. It was. And I was, like, in London for a while, like, training. It was just, like, crazy to see, like, the inside of that whole world. And, like, I don't blame her for a second for opting out, like, at all. And, like, good for him for getting out, too. Like, that whole system. Kate, God bless her, but, like, her entire life is living for someone else, and life is short.
- [51:26]
Brittany
And also, it sucked for your life be living for someone else. And you're also, like, the second fiddle. Like, you can't. You are in such A cage. And then you're also just kind of going to this. The secondary functions, fulfilling the secondary role. I feel like. Yeah, I get what she said when she said to Harry, like, we basically have one life. Like, are we really gonna do this?
- [51:48]
Taylor Lorenz
Totally.
- [51:48]
Brittany
Especially when. When they are, you know, and there's a lot of people who disagree with this and hate Meghan Markle. But when she said, like, when they are not protecting us, when they're using me in order to get better pressed for themselves and deflect attention away from themselves, like, they're harming me, and then I have to just, like, sit here.
- [52:06]
Taylor Lorenz
In this cage and they don't protect me from, like, horrendous, racist, like, very scary real things online. I also not for a single second blame her and Harry for doing what they did. Also, for what it's worth on that video, I love that it was a little bit more dressed down, sitting in the garden.
- [52:22]
Chandler
Yes, me too.
- [52:23]
Taylor Lorenz
You know, I think we got the pretty, like, curated, perfectly manicured trailer from Netflix, which I also loved and ate up. But I think this was like, you know, it didn't look like she had any makeup on.
- [52:32]
Brittany
Didn't look like she'd done her hair at all.
- [52:33]
Taylor Lorenz
No, it was just. It was literally like Sunday, late afternoon. I'm gonna go film this video really quick.
- [52:38]
Chandler
Harry's, like, it's recording.
- [52:39]
Taylor Lorenz
Yeah, I found that to be amazing. That's what I want from her.
- [52:44]
Brittany
Yeah.
- [52:45]
Chandler
Yeah, I think it's more of that sort of unfiltered. It goes back to, like, exposing yourself. Right. Like, we want more of the, like, real her. Yeah.
- [52:52]
Brittany
Yeah. So this episode is coming out on March 5th, and I just want everyone to know that Chandler and I are going to be recapping all of the episodes of With Love Megan on Netflix on our premium feed. So just be aware that our recap of episode one is dropping on Friday. You don't want to miss it. Clearly, we have a lot of opinions, maybe some we can't share here. And anyway, Chandler, now that I've promoted our premium series on With Love Megan.
- [53:18]
Taylor Lorenz
Please, I want to double click on what you said about Gwyneth Paltrow.
- [53:21]
Brittany
Oh, like, we.
- [53:22]
Taylor Lorenz
We love Gwyneth.
- [53:23]
Brittany
He loves.
- [53:23]
Taylor Lorenz
We're Big Stan. We love her. We love her marriage. Her current marriage. Yeah. So please, like, what? Speak more to what you were saying earlier.
- [53:30]
Chandler
I just think so. Gwyneth came of time, she was famous from this previous era. Right. Where she was part of the sort of old Hollywood machine and was never, like, never had to Kind of grow up with the. Obviously, she grew up in the spotlight, but, like, it was a very different. Wasn't the Internet spotlight in the same way? And I feel like she's been able to launch and curate her brand while kind of staying above all of it and, like. Like, being removed. And she'll collaborate with people like I saw her collaborating with. I can't even remember who it was, but some content, you know, like, she'll do, like, content creator collabs, and she's clearly, like, relevant and with it. But she has such a ability to sort of control her narrative in the press, and I think it allows her to maintain that sort of, like, luxury kind of appearance. Like, there's not that, like, messiness.
- [54:13]
Taylor Lorenz
Interesting. So it's kind of like she just has, like, a better PR strategy. And she just has. Obviously, comparing to Meghan Markle is tough, but, like, of a lot of these, like, celebrities, also influencers, she has maybe the best PR game.
- [54:24]
Chandler
Yeah. Well, because it's all about, like, image curation. And I think that, like, when you're building an aspirational brand, you have to project this aspirational image. Everything has to seem, like, amazing and great or like. Or I'm struggling, but it's great because XYZ or whatever, you know, I just think. And it's harder. And this is so many arguments about, like, why, like, women of color can't deal with this. Like, other types of women, like, marginalized people, obviously, they're not. Like, Gwyneth is a beautiful white woman that is seen in a different light than Megan, of course. But I do think that most of Megan's problems are, like, a PR problem.
- [54:57]
Taylor Lorenz
Yeah. Yeah.
- [54:58]
Brittany
I'm curious what you think about this idea. The idea that someone's response to Gwyneth Paltrow or to Meghan Markle is an indicator of their potentially their own health. Internal mental health or lack of mental health.
- [55:11]
Chandler
Oh, my God. I think there's so many litmus tests like this where I was talking to another content creator that I was making a video with recently who was saying, you know, that actually her litmus test, she was saying was Amber Heard and how people feel about Amber Heard. And it's interesting because you're saying this with Blake Lively, too. I think that it's not even about the details of these cases, which I feel like some people. And I know you guys, like, talk about, like, the details of it. Like, it's more like when you ask someone how they feel about it, where do they take that response? And is the response, she's an entitled bia. Whatever. And, like, does it immediately become this sort of, like, personal hatred, like, thing? Or is it like, well, like, I don't know, like, some sort of, like, more thoughtful thing where it's like, okay, well, maybe I disagree with this or this and this. And I do think that, like, how we respond to women in the public eye, that is a litmus test for me a little bit.
- [56:04]
Brittany
Yeah. I feel like, for me, my litmus test comes back mentally unwell because I'm, like, so obsessed. Like, but it's not, like, even in a positive direction. Like, I'm like, I love Gwyneth Paltrow.
- [56:14]
Chandler
I just want more, more, more.
- [56:16]
Brittany
And it's like, unwell, touched grass, no map.
- [56:19]
Taylor Lorenz
No matter what.
- [56:20]
Chandler
I feel like, what's like. But the unwell stuff to me is, like, the negative side because I'm like, if you're positive, obsessed in, like, a good way. I'm also obsessed with her, even though I don't live anything like that, like, life. But I'm just like, there's something that I just love about her, and I feel like I know her.
- [56:35]
Taylor Lorenz
Gwyneth Paltrow is a person who I like. I feel like if she spent an hour with us, like, she'd love us anyway. But I feel like she does a really good job, I think, of. Of conveying her energy, which I think is amazing. As someone who's never really met. I've met her once, but, like, never spent any time with her. Like, her energy comes across so well online. And I think that, like, maybe we just haven't gotten enough of, like, Megan's energy. I don't know. Or, like, the Amber Heard energy we've gotten has been from, like, the trial.
- [57:00]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [57:00]
Taylor Lorenz
But I think that, yeah. Her energy is conveyed so well.
- [57:03]
Chandler
Yeah. Gwyneth hasn't been involved in one of these public lawsuits.
- [57:07]
Taylor Lorenz
I would say the ski thing, maybe.
- [57:09]
Chandler
Oh, that's true. Right. But it's, like, funny how it.
- [57:11]
Taylor Lorenz
I don't know why. It was perfect.
- [57:12]
Brittany
It kind of.
- [57:12]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [57:13]
Taylor Lorenz
It was still, like, she was still beloved after or. Well, I lost a half a day of skiing.
- [57:16]
Chandler
Yeah. That was crazy. She does a great job. Yeah.
- [57:19]
Brittany
I don't know. I feel like the people who are like, oh, she. She's so rich. You know, she. She recommends things that are outrageously expensive. It's kind of like, yeah, exactly. She's super rich. They're going to be rich people. Shut up.
- [57:32]
Chandler
But going back to, like, the Nara Smith thing, like, Gwyneth has that like, twinkle in her eye. Like, she's able to make fun of herself and she's able to, like, parody herself and, like, recognize the absurdity of sort of what she does. And I think that is what sort of bridges it.
- [57:46]
Brittany
My favorite Gwyneth Paltrow quote is, I can't pretend to make $25,000 a year.
- [57:51]
Chandler
Which is true.
- [57:53]
Brittany
And do we want her to? No.
- [57:55]
Chandler
No, we don't.
- [57:56]
Brittany
We really do not.
- [57:57]
Taylor Lorenz
We don't.
- [57:57]
Brittany
Also, when this episode is is coming out, we are going to have an article on Substack about why Meghan Markle and Gwyneth Paltrow. And your response to them is a litmus test for your own mental health. So check that out, everyone. I want to hear, Taylor, your favorite favorite substack newsletters people should subscribe to. We're new to Substack, so we need the.
- [58:16]
Chandler
Okay. Use your mag. Co you have to plug for Sure. I love Emily Sundberg's Feed Me.
- [58:22]
Brittany
Okay.
- [58:23]
Chandler
It's just a great, like, it's ostensibly a business newsletter, but it's very, like, gossipy, like, kind of fun New York tea for, like, I don't know, I feel like the things that we're interested in. What other newsletters I love? Kate Lindsay has a newsletter called Embedded. That's like an online culture newsletter that's really good. I love Caitlin Dewey, a former online culture reporter, has a a one called Links I would gchat you if we were friends.
- [58:43]
Brittany
Okay.
- [58:43]
Chandler
Which has always had some good links.
- [58:45]
Brittany
Amazing.
- [58:46]
Chandler
Oh, one other one that I love. This, like, Gen Z etymologist has a called Adam Alexa, who I've interviewed before, has one called It's Etymology Nerd. It's his sub sack. He has a book coming out called Algo Speak. It's all about how the Internet has changed our language and, like, it's such a meme now. Like, all of the brain rot terms that we use. And like, he is just so good at, like, breaking down how our language is changing because the Internet and like, pop culture and he's so on top of it.
- [59:11]
Brittany
Thank you for sharing. Do you have any specific articles that you've written that you want to point people to?
- [59:16]
Chandler
Oh, my God. I have written so many articles. Somebody asked me recently, like, what's my favorite article that I've written? I'm like, there's just a lot. Oh, my God. What have I written? I would say, like, my newsletter recently. I don't know. I mean, I've written a bunch of big feature stories on things. Like, if you look at my like New York Times byline history or like Washington Post or the Atlantic. Like I think actually I was looking back through my Atlantic stories because I worked there in the late 2010s and and the story about like the fake sponsored content is there like the story about like a lot of these like early influencer things I would say. Also buy my book and you can follow the best of my reporting.
- [59:50]
Brittany
Streaming online is so good. Everyone subscribe to User Mag on Substack and listen to Power User Podcast. Taylor, you are like such a powerhouse and it's so fun chatting with you. Thank you so much for joining.
- [60:03]
Chandler
Thank you so much for having me.
- [60:04]
Brittany
And with that, you guys will be back on Friday with our premium episode. Bye Bye.
- [60:09]
Taylor Lorenz
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