272: The Death of John O’Keefe & the Trial of Karen Read Part 2

Summary

Pop Apologists - Episode 272: The Death of John O’Keefe & the Trial of Karen Reed Part 2

Release Date: April 30, 2025

In Episode 272 of Pop Apologists, hosts Chandler and Lauren delve into the ongoing legal saga surrounding Karen Reed and the tragic death of her boyfriend, John O’Keefe. This installment, part two of their comprehensive deep dive, focuses on the aftermath of the initial trial, the reasons behind the impending second trial, and the new evidence brought forth. Below is a structured summary capturing the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from the episode.

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1. Introduction and Personal Updates [00:00 - 08:13]

Chandler and Lauren begin the episode by sharing personal updates about their upcoming wedding week. Their light-hearted banter sets a warm tone before transitioning into the main topic. However, they advise listeners primarily interested in Karen Reed’s case to refer to specific timestamps for targeted information.

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2. Recap of the First Trial and Aftermath [08:13 - 21:40]

Lauren provides a detailed recount of the first trial, highlighting that after 29 days of testimony and a week of jury deliberation, a mistrial was declared on July 1 due to a deeply divided jury. Notably, the jurors unanimously found Karen Reed not guilty on two counts—second-degree murder and leaving the scene of the crime—but were split on the third count, necessitating a retrial.

Key Points:

• Juror Unanimity on Two Counts: "[...] jurors unanimously agreed that Karen was not guilty on two counts, the count of second-degree murder and the count of leaving the scene." [10:24]
• Impact of Mistrial: The inability to reach a consensus on the third count forced the court to schedule a full retrial, much to the frustration of Karen Reed and her legal team.

Chandler emphasizes the frustration surrounding the mistrial, questioning the possibility of jurors being influenced post-trial and expressing disbelief over the decision to proceed with a second trial despite the defense's strong performance in the first.

Misconduct by Trooper Michael Proctor:

• Derogatory Texts: The episode highlights revelations that Trooper Michael Proctor, the lead investigator, was dismissed for sending offensive and unprofessional text messages during the investigation. This misconduct undermines the credibility of the prosecution's case.
  • "Trooper Proctor sent derogatory text messages to friends during his investigation, including, 'hopefully she kills herself,' as well as calling her the C word and mentioning that he didn't find any nudes on her phone." [16:34]

Lauren underscores the biased investigation, noting that Proctor's actions have significantly jeopardized the prosecution's stance and spotlighted potential corruption within the investigative process.

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3. Developments Leading to the Second Trial [21:40 - 32:07]

Chandler and Lauren discuss the steps leading up to the second trial, including pre-trial litigation and motions filed by Karen Reed's defense team alleging governmental misconduct. These motions were ultimately denied by Judge Canone, allowing the retrial to proceed.

New Legal Team Enhancements:

• Addition of an Alternate Juror: Karen Reed's defense has bolstered their team by adding a new member—an alternate juror from the previous trial who is also a lawyer. This strategic move aims to strengthen their position and better navigate jury dynamics.
  • "They've added a new member to the team who was an alternate juror from the last case, who's actually a lawyer herself." [13:37]

Prosecution's New Attorney:

• Hank Brennan Takes Over: The prosecution has introduced a new attorney, Hank Brennan, contrasting the previous prosecutor, Alan Jackson, who was perceived as less dynamic and persuasive.
  • "The prosecution has a new attorney. His name is Hank Brennan. And, you know, the previous prosecutor was not as, you know, dazzling, I'll say, as Alan Jackson." [24:33]

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4. Presentation of New Evidence [32:07 - 43:32]

The hosts delve into the fresh evidence slated for the second trial, which includes:

• Cell Phone Temperature Data: Intended to establish a more accurate timeline of events.
• Vehicle Telemetry: Data from Karen Reed's Lexus aiming to show unusual driving patterns that could indicate culpability.
• Additional Voicemails: New angry messages from Karen Reed that the prosecution plans to use to suggest intent or knowledge of wrongdoing.

Notable Insights:

• Defense's Potential Edge: Despite these new pieces of evidence, Chandler argues that Karen Reed's defense may still hold significant ground due to inconsistencies and potential misconduct in the investigation.

  • "This case is really just so fascinating, and there are so many pieces of evidence, in my opinion, that support Karen Reed's innocence." [09:29]

• Challenges of Public Interviews: Chandler points out that Karen Reed's numerous interviews might backfire, providing the prosecution with material to question her credibility due to potential discrepancies in her statements over time.

  • "If they can bring both of those statements to trial, they can say, well, we can't actually trust what she's saying." [12:40]

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5. Defense and Prosecution Strategies [43:32 - 47:43]

Lauren and Chandler analyze the strategic approaches of both legal teams:

• Defense Strategy:

  • Alan Jackson seeks to highlight the lack of concrete evidence linking Karen Reed to the homicide and emphasizes reasonable doubt.
  • Focus on disproving the collision theory through forensic evidence and expert testimony from ARCA (A Reliable Crash Analysis) experts.
  • "The fact that his injuries were not consistent with being hit by a car at all, that was like, this person said, they look at hundreds. You know, they've seen so many car accident victims." [37:50]

• Prosecution Strategy:

  • Hank Brennan aims to solidify the case by presenting new evidence, including the aforementioned cell phone data and voicemails.
  • Lauren notes the prosecution's focus on Karen Reed's statements at the scene, interpreting her confusion as culpability.
    • "If she didn't hit him, how soon into the night did the fight happen?" [26:17]

Opening Statements Comparison:

• Alan Jackson's opening was described as riveting and compelling, effectively establishing reasonable doubt and questioning the integrity of the investigation.
• The Prosecution's opening was seen as less dynamic, relying heavily on first responder testimonies without as much persuasive force.
  • "Alan Jackson's opening statements were quite riveting. I found it to really, like, carry my interest." [38:27]

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6. Impact on Karen Reed and the Community [43:32 - 56:59]

Lauren discusses the personal and financial toll the trial has taken on Karen Reed, noting her $5 million debt from legal fees and the strain on her personal life. The relentless legal battle has not only defined her existence but also intertwined the memories of the deceased, John O'Keefe, with this contentious case.

Community Dynamics:

• Reed is perceived by many locals as a hero fighting against a corrupt system, while others remain skeptical.
• Lauren emphasizes the broader implications of the case, suggesting it reflects deep-seated issues within the community’s law enforcement and judicial processes.

Judge Canone’s Ruling:

• Recently, Judge Canone allowed ARCA experts to testify, a significant victory for Reed’s defense.
  • "Judge Kanoni expressed her displeasure at, quote, repeated violations by Reid's team regarding the sharing of information about two witnesses from forensics and engineering firm arca, but ultimately decided that, quote, a defendant's right to a fair trial is paramount." [55:35]

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7. Conclusion and Future Outlook [56:59 - End]

As the episode wraps up, Chandler and Lauren briefly touch upon unrelated pop culture topics, which they dismiss as non-essential to the main discussion. They tease future content related to Karen Reed’s trial, including upcoming interviews and field visits to the crime scene to provide jurors with a tangible understanding of the events.

Final Thoughts:

• The hosts express unwavering commitment to uncovering the truth behind John O’Keefe’s death and advocating for Karen Reed’s innocence.
• They anticipate a high-stakes second trial with significant new evidence that could alter the case's trajectory.

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Notable Quotes:

• Lauren: "I think warmth is more important than even wet." [01:55]
• Chandler: "If you have heard that exact sentence before, don't have it in your bag." [05:04]
• Lauren: "She is a local hero in Boston." [22:07]
• Chandler: "It's really a tragic situation for everyone involved." [23:23]
• Lauren: "John O'Keefe, who was a beloved uncle, friend, police officer, like his memory is now completely tangled up in this mess." [23:08]
• Chandler: "This could happen to me." [24:14]
• Lauren: "This was not away," in context of prejudgment and lack of evidence. [27:22]

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Conclusion

Episode 272 of Pop Apologists offers an in-depth and emotionally charged exploration of Karen Reed's ongoing legal battle. Through detailed analysis and insightful commentary, Chandler and Lauren shed light on the complexities of the case, the potential misconduct within the investigation, and the high stakes involved in the retrial. Their commitment to providing a thorough understanding makes this episode a must-listen for anyone following this captivating legal drama.

Transcript

[Chandler]

Foreign. Welcome to part two of our deep dive on Karen Reed. So in this episode, Chandler and I chat at the beginning about her upcoming wedding. So if you are here just for the Karen Reed of it all, refer to the timestamps on where to go to to begin the next part of our deep dive on Karen Reed.

[Lauren]

Everyone, we're unpacking what happened at the end of the first trial, why we have arrived at a second trial. All of the new evidence in this trial. The first week that you know, we are in court. The witnesses and opening statements. There's a lot to get into here.

[Chandler]

Well, well, well. We are here on the official wedding week for Chandler.

[Lauren]

Wedding week is here. We're in full swing.

[Chandler]

We're both in white.

[Lauren]

We're both in white. I got in the elevator today and a very cute girl complimented my fit and she was like, I love it. So spring. And I don't know why, but I really wanted to be like, well, I'm getting married this week.

[Chandler]

I'm so glad you did.

[Lauren]

And I held back the urge.

[Chandler]

It's kind of like when you see someone on your birthday who you don't know, you have the urge to like, it's actually my birthday. The lady at cvs, she's like, bitch, I don't care, I don't care.

[Lauren]

But anyway, it's here.

[Chandler]

You look very stately, very regal, very bridal.

[Lauren]

Thank you.

[Chandler]

Very beautiful. I'm so sorry. I'm wearing a white top. Truly. It was an oversight and I didn't think about it.

[Lauren]

Lauren's wearing a plunging white top for those of you not watching. Plunging.

[Chandler]

Mm. Tits are out. For the girls and boys, the highest.

[Lauren]

Olympic sized, whatever, pool diving board, plushing top.

[Chandler]

I just can't stand when any attention is not on me. As you know.

[Lauren]

It's true.

[Chandler]

No, just kidding. I'm so happy for you. I'm so excited.

[Lauren]

I know. I am too. I. I'm feeling really good. Yeah, the weather is a little bit all over the place, but it's looking warm.

[Chandler]

It's looking warm.

[Lauren]

We're not sure about precipitation, but at least the day itself is looking warm, which is maybe my biggest wish.

[Chandler]

Really?

[Lauren]

My wish is like really for warmth. I think warmth is more important than even wet.

[Chandler]

Your Ray J. One wish.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

Is for warmth just because you don't want people kind of frigid and uncomfortable.

[Lauren]

I think the worst possible weather, knock on wood, I think the worst possible weather would be cold and windy.

[Chandler]

Oh, yeah.

[Lauren]

And right now we're looking like warm, potentially afternoon shower. But we'll see. We'll see. And honestly, it'll be wonderful no matter what.

[Chandler]

I mean, can you imagine if it's a beautiful day.

[Lauren]

I know.

[Chandler]

Will you be so happy?

[Lauren]

And if it rains in the morning, it'll be great because it'll be super green and it'll clear out allergens, et cetera.

[Chandler]

Love it.

[Lauren]

But yeah. What else about me and my wedding?

[Chandler]

I'm so excited. I was thinking, I was like, did I get the same lead up chatter? And I don't think I did. I feel like I was. My wedding content was so demure in comparison.

[Lauren]

It was worse.

[Chandler]

No, it was.

[Lauren]

It was gravely worse.

[Chandler]

Wait, our discussion of my wedding was, you think over. Like, the coverage was more intensive?

[Lauren]

No, I don't think. Well, I think it was more fraught.

[Chandler]

Wow. I was more of a bitch. You're actually surprisingly chill. Like, I am basically instilling fear in you and anxiety into this process. Like, I'm like, everyone, if you feel sick at all, you need to be aware of your symptoms. You need to not come near Ben and Chandler and Shannon's like, it's fine. I'm not worried about it.

[Lauren]

I will do whatever Dr. Feelgood shot I need to do on the day of. I will take, you know, Mucinex. I will load myself up with whatever medication is needed. I'm feeling good. And like, nothing can. Can rain on this beautiful week.

[Chandler]

I saw a friend who recently had novovirus.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

And I was like, you need to stay away from me. No, literally, I just had it, though. So I'm like, not like I'm healed. I'm the best person to be around. And I'm just like, no, stay away.

[Lauren]

Yeah, six feet.

[Chandler]

Anything, El, before we dig into the meat of the matter today. I mean, the meat of the matter.

[Lauren]

The meat of the matter. Delicious.

[Chandler]

If I just came up with that, but here we are.

[Lauren]

I think you did. You're a very eloquent poet. How are you feeling about your wedding jobs?

[Chandler]

Oh, I thought you want to talk about my wedding, which I would love to.

[Lauren]

What, like, any takeaways that you're. Are you having any type of, like, reflection on your wedding? During this week of my wedding, I.

[Chandler]

Actually really want to revisit my nuptials. I wanted to read my vows. Actually.

[Lauren]

I do actually kind of want to talk to you about your vows because I'm in the process of, like, editing my vows. How did you approach it? What was your system?

[Chandler]

I believe I wrote mine in the 24 hours before. So it was a very Last minute writing, which was not good. Or maybe I jotted down notes. I honestly really can't remember.

[Lauren]

Can I tell you that I was writing mine this morning or, you know, editing them? I have, like, done a draft, and I was thinking about my favorite part of your vows.

[Chandler]

Oh, really?

[Lauren]

Yeah. And I think my favorite part was when you said. Said I can't wait for our kids to say something to me, and then I'll say, go ask your dad. And I thought that was just like, the sweetest little, like, glimpse into the future, you know, something you were excited about. So anyway, I was. I. I was like, oh, I love that little touch. Yeah, it was very sweet.

[Chandler]

Like, I couldn't wait to say, go ask your dad. If you're referring to Kagan.

[Lauren]

Exactly. Yeah. And I think it was like, you talking about, you know, Kagan. Just very knowledgeable, knowing about a lot of things.

[Chandler]

I think the best thing to do is to just make them as personal as you can. So to avoid platitudes at all costs. Basically, if you have heard that exact sentence before, don't have it in your bag. Yes. Like, I don't want to hear that he's your best friend.

[Lauren]

Totally.

[Chandler]

You know, I don't want to hear that you love doing life with him.

[Lauren]

Totally.

[Chandler]

I really don't want to hear anything anyone's ever said before.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

I don't even want to hear I love you. I want it to be narrative. I want to hear stories. I want to see images in my head. I want a casual, jokey moment.

[Lauren]

I know I got to think of my joke.

[Chandler]

And I think you have to just. Yeah. You have to make it super specific. Like, that's the rule of good writing. Right. Is. It's just. You avoid cliche. Right. So good luck. Right.

[Lauren]

Well, the task is. Is before me. Anyway. I did. I did make Ben a to do list today before I left.

[Chandler]

Michelle.

[Lauren]

Very good. Oh, I was. It was like. And I, you know, I'll give him things to do, but today I was like, I wrote down a list, and it was great feeling.

[Chandler]

One thing I will say, Ben is very good at doing your to do list. So I have full confidence in this. But one thing I. One piece of advice I have for you is don't rest on your laurels. So that was one thing I did a little bit. Not everything, just about just in life. Have no confidence. No. I felt like I was very confident in myself as a speaker.

[Lauren]

Oh.

[Chandler]

Yeah. And so I didn't practice as much as I should have, and I stumbled over My words a few times.

[Lauren]

Do not remember that at all.

[Chandler]

Well, that's good, because when I listen back, I cringe at the few times I stumbled over my words. And Kagan actually practiced a lot more than me and delivered much more smoothly than me.

[Lauren]

Got it.

[Chandler]

Because he was not resting on his laurels.

[Lauren]

One last thing. This is the week of my love. You know all about Ben and I. But for whatever reason, my phone thinks that we're married.

[Chandler]

Okay.

[Lauren]

Because my phone. All of its suggested backgrounds are photos of you.

[Chandler]

Oh, he thinks that you and I are married?

[Lauren]

Yes. These are my wallpaper suggestions.

[Chandler]

No, there's more.

[Lauren]

It's like. It's a picture. There's one that's Ben and my engagement ring, and then the next one is, like is of you. They're more of you than there are Ben.

[Chandler]

First of all, I love how just LGBTQIA friendly Apple is.

[Lauren]

Absolutely.

[Chandler]

We are married. That's bizarre.

[Lauren]

How funny is that?

[Chandler]

Also, I just love the range because.

[Lauren]

There'S, like, a truly honest. Honestly. Scroll here. Wallpaper suggestions. They're like, all of you.

[Chandler]

There's truly, like, a few really slutty ones of me in a bikini. And then my favorite, though, is just, like, the me at the rest home, basically, like, in my white linen. Oh, my gosh. Kill me. Is that funny? So funny. Well, what a gorgeous day it is.

[Lauren]

I'm so happy for you.

[Chandler]

I'm so excited for you. I cannot wait to debrief with everyone. We also have a very exciting Global Elites episode coming up.

[Lauren]

Yes, the one that I recorded. Yes, everyone. I did an episode with Ben. We recorded it this past weekend, and it was so lovely. It was, like, tender and funny at times, but I feel like you really get to know Ben a lot better, and it kind of just, like, set the tone for our wedding week in the most, like, perfect and special way. So I'm really excited for everyone to listen to that.

[Chandler]

I'm so excited. That is going to be up on Monday, everyone. So when Chan and Ben are hopping off to their honeymoon, you're gonna get to listen to that interview. And then the following Monday, we'll have Chandler's wedding recap. Yeah. So. And that was all gonna be on Global Elites, so it's never been a better time to be a global elite. Never been a better time. We have weekly minis now out on Friday, so you're getting two bonus episodes a week now. It's a lot of content. Everyone. Over on Global Elites, It's a cornucopia.

[Lauren]

Of Lauren and Chandler.

[Chandler]

Chatter so if that's what you like, join us. And without further ado, I think we should dive into the meat of the matter today.

[Lauren]

A lot is happening.

[Chandler]

Yes. Chandler and I have never been as riveted, I believe, as we are right now on this Karen Reid trial. Right.

[Lauren]

Well, I don't think that you've been this riveted. I have actually been like 10 out of 10 following and riveted since the beginning. But I think. I believe that I led our deep dive, you know, on the case. And now you. I think you are finally seeing how crazy this entire situation is and the evidence and, you know, the lack of evidence. So right now, Karen Reed is on trial again for the murder of her boyfriend, John O'Keefe, who was a Boston cop.

[Chandler]

Yes. So today, what we're going to be doing is kind of taking everyone through everything since the trial. So we're going to discuss what happened at the end of the trial and then all of the kind of new evidence. And then this first week of trial just catch everyone up to speed. So we're all as up to date as possible on this series of events. This case is really just so fascinating, and there are so many pieces of evidence, in my opinion, that support Karen Reed's innocence. But we're back with her potentially going to prison for a long time if she's convicted. Right. And there's new evidence that the prosecution has that's definitely, I think, going to make this trial harder than the first trial.

[Lauren]

And I think they say that, you know, when you're retried, it typically favors the prosecution.

[Chandler]

Really?

[Lauren]

Yeah. But I think we should tell everybody about what happened during the first trial. So everyone. Last year, last summer, after 29 days of testimony and a week of deliberations, the jury twice reported being deeply divided. The jury went to the judge two times and said, look, we are at a standstill. We are deeply divided. We cannot come to a consensus. And on July 1, Judge Beverly Canone declared a mistrial due to a hung jury. Now, where this gets very interesting is that it later emerged that jurors unanimously agreed that Karen was not guilty on two counts, the count of second degree murder and the count of leaving the scene. But they were split on the third, and they believed that they had to be unanimous on all of the counts. So they did not return partial verdicts. As a result, no verdict was reached, necessitating a full retrial.

[Chandler]

It's really, really flooring, and I can't imagine how frustrating that would be for her, for her defense Team, they fully won a not guilty verdict for two of those counts, and the big one being second degree murder. So leaving the scene of the crime is also obvious. It's not as large, I believe, as manslaughter.

[Lauren]

Correct.

[Chandler]

Yeah. So that's definitely still big, but it's not nearly as big a second degree murder. And the fact that they got her off, but because of this technicality, like, why can't they just bring all those jurors in, have them agree that that's what they said? I mean, I guess basically they could be influenced after they leave the courtroom.

[Lauren]

Yeah, I think it's, like, now tainted and like this juror's account, you know, like, that's just what they say happened. No, it's crazy. And also, if you watch the documentary Body in the Snow, you'll see that her lawyers, like, they. They put on a really impressive case the first time. This was not like they got lucky the first time. Like, her lawyers did a very good job, I would say, of defending her and presenting, you know, an alternate theory as to what happened that night. And so the fact that they're having to do this all over again for the same, you know, hopefully the same, if not a better result is pretty crazy.

[Chandler]

Yes. So there are certain parts of the defense that they're not going to be able to discuss this go round. And in my opinion, this really supports Karen Reid's innocence. She has been doing interview after interview after interview, just talking, talking, talking. She did a Vanity Fair interview where the woman stayed with her, the journalist stayed with her for three or four days. No question was off limits. There were no boundaries over what she could ask. This woman is airing it all out. And it's actually crazy because the problem is that it does give the prosecution so much material to essentially use against her. And that's what's really tricky is even if you think you're not saying anything that could be even somewhat incriminating, if they can start piecing parts of anything you say that direct, that conflicts with something you said in the past, if they can bring both of those statements to trial, they can say, well, we can't actually trust what she's saying. Right. Because there's conflicts here. And I think that the hard part is memory over the course of several years can be kind of difficult. Right. You could misremember things. You could start to think that something that someone else said was something you heard yourself.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

You know, it's just. It's so easy, I think, to. With a case with so many Details. It's just easy for Karen Reid to potentially really cause harm to herself by doing all these interviews. Yeah.

[Lauren]

And to that point, you know, all of these witnesses are going to have to come back and testify again. Their memory is going to be even cloudier than before.

[Chandler]

And I think a lot of these witnesses that really were in favor of Karen Reid's case and that really looked bad. We just don't know if they're going to look bad again. We don't know if, like, if this prosecutor is going to be able to do a better job at Cross than Alan Jackson. It's just, wow, really crazy.

[Lauren]

I think that Karen has very impressive lawyers on her side. It's the same legal team as before. In fact, they've added a new member to the team who was an alternate juror from the last case, who's actually a lawyer herself, I believe. I believe she's a woman. And, you know, she is now on the team. And I think she'll be really instrumental in kind of helping to shape the way they need to position their case for the jury.

[Chandler]

Did you hear that there were three jurors? I think they were. I don't know if they were alternates, but there were. Yeah, I think they were alternates, but there were three jurors essentially, that were dismissed from the trial immediately after the trial was over. And those three jurors, Alan Jackson says in an interview, he says, we know they favored Karen Reed. We just know from their body language, from how they. He says, you can get a pretty good read on each of the jurors based on. Are they leaning in when, you know, when our case is happening, Are they leaning back? Like, what are their facial expressions? I guess you can get a pretty good sense. And three staunchly pro Karen jurors were immediately dismissed.

[Lauren]

What do you mean by dismiss?

[Chandler]

Like, they only needed a certain amount. And I believe that, like, during jury selection. No, after, when the. Like, I think it could have been just the alternates, but once 12 went into to deliberate all the. Like. I wish I knew the specifics on this. So apologies. But basically it's like the three, I guess just three jurors were selected to not need it anymore. And those three were very pro Karen. And he just says, like, that is something that they look back on and really feel like was a miscarriage of justice for her. And there is some feeling right now that this judge is anti Karen Reed. Have you seen that?

[Lauren]

And it's the same judge in this second trial, which I think is pretty insane. I don't know if that's, like, what always happens, if it's always the same judge for the, you know, a second trial.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Lauren]

But, yeah, there's definitely a sentiment that this judge is anti Karen Reid.

[Chandler]

Another interesting thing is that the two counts that the jurors were completely unanimous about finding her not guilty on were the counts that would have had her hitting John and leaving the scene. Those two counts, they did not believe that she on purpose hit him and left. Yeah, that's second degree murder, and that's leaving the scene of the accident. The count that there was some waffling on from a few jurors was the manslaughter count. And so manslaughter is the unlawful killing of another person without premeditation or malice aforethought. So it differs from murder, which eventually. Which typically involves intent or premeditation. One thing about intent and premeditation is that can happen in a second. Right. Where you get upset with someone and you drive your car into them. That's premeditation. That's intent. Yeah. Manslaughter would be she accidentally hit him. So I do think that it just again, it's like no one thought she murdered John O'Keefe. And also, manslaughter is going to carry such a lighter sentence, especially with. For someone with no criminal history. Right. Well, actually, maybe it's not, though, because if she's drunk and manslaughter, can't that happen?

[Lauren]

I think it's, like, for sure going to be less than secondary. Right.

[Chandler]

Okay, so let's get into the aftermath of the first trial. So Trooper. Trooper Michael Proctor, who was accused of misconduct, was relieved of duty the day the mistrial was declared and officially fired in March 2025 after an internal review. To refresh your memory, Trooper Proctor sent derogatory text messages to friends during his investigation, including, quote, hopefully she kills herself, as well as calling her the C word and mentioning that he didn't find any nudes on her phone.

[Lauren]

So Trooper Proctor was the lead investigator. He was the person who was supposed to be overseeing all of this. And, yeah, his behavior is indefensible. He was texting his high school buddies about this case. They asked about, you know, the homeowner, the person, you know, whose lawn John was found on. And I think they asked him, is the homeowner going to catch any shit? And Trooper Proctor said, no. He's a Boston cop, too, basically saying.

[Chandler]

Like, we're protecting each other.

[Lauren]

He might have said he's a cop.

[Chandler]

Too, but, yeah, he said he's One of us.

[Lauren]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chandler]

So that is pretty insane. I just also think that really he should be investigating the death of John O'Keefe. And it seemed like his role and what he was trying to do was investigate how they could convict Karen. Right.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

He was so biased from the beginning and hated her. And investigation. You should have an unbiased investigator, not someone who's calling you the C word and being, like, dehumanizing you.

[Lauren]

He sent some really awful text messages. Karen Reed has, like, a medical condition.

[Chandler]

She has multiple sclerosis. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lauren]

And like, I believe she has a colostomy bag.

[Chandler]

Oh, does she? Or like, she has Crohn's disease.

[Lauren]

I know she has. She has. She has, like, very, like, life altering, you know, issues with. With, I think Ms. Or. Yeah, Crohn's disease.

[Chandler]

She has both.

[Lauren]

I don't know her, like, her medical stuff to a T. But anyway, he sent some really graphic texts about it that were just like, honestly, you can't imagine that any person would utter about another person, let alone a professional. Someone who's supposed to be treating this, you know, case with respect.

[Chandler]

Right.

[Lauren]

Respect to her, respect to the victim. He, from the get go, has been the most problematic part of this entire case.

[Chandler]

I mean, he's jeopardized the entire thing.

[Lauren]

And what I think is really interesting, and we'll get to this, but in the opening statements from the defense, from Karen Reid's attorney, Alan Jackson, he says that Trooper Proctor is, you know, what the whole case rests on for, you know, the prosecution. But he's also their Achilles heel.

[Chandler]

Right.

[Lauren]

Because he is so problematic. Right.

[Chandler]

Gosh, I just, again, I always go back to his role is to be finding the truth. And he seems to literally hate Karen Reid.

[Lauren]

Yeah. One thing, too, for people who aren't as familiar, Karen Reed was kind of an outsider. She was not a part of this necessarily super tight knit community. You know, she was maybe a bit more like white collar than some of the other people in this town. And, you know, she was kind of. She was seen as an outsider.

[Chandler]

Yeah. And I think that another thing that is interesting and kind of just going back to the scene of the crime and when. When someone asked him, are the owners of that house going to catch any heat for this? I was reading an article today about this and apparently the neighbors on the other side of the street, they came out during all this commotion. Right. They took photos. And again, this was happening on the front lawn of Brian Albert's house. And Brian Albert does not come out he doesn't hear it. And when I was first hearing that testimony, I thought, okay, well it's cold, it's 6am, it's freezing by crazy wind. Okay, you cannot hear it. But if it's happening on his front lawn and the people across the street definitely heard it, they come out, they take pictures, they also testified or they at least gave quotes saying, that does not make any sense that he did not hear the commotion.

[Lauren]

Especially when Brian Albert is a first responder. Is a first responder is someone who in theory would, would you want to help his friend help out or help with this like tight knit community and this like horrible tragedy that's happened, but to stay inside the entire early morning, it absolutely makes no sense that he didn't at least like walk out to say like, hey, what's going on?

[Chandler]

You're a police officer, right? Like you just would come out to talk to your other, you know, your.

[Lauren]

He knows these people.

[Chandler]

You would try to help in any way you can.

[Lauren]

Trooper Proctor was like a, was a good family friend of the Alberts. Not only was there nothing from, you know, Brian Albert to Trooper Proctor, but nothing from Trooper Proctor to Brian Albert. Like, hey man, something happened at your house last night.

[Chandler]

Like, knock, knock. Yeah, we gotta ask you if you heard anything. It is so nuts. And I think it really goes, it's really impressive that Karen Reed is like, when you hear interviews with her, she says, like, this is my purpose right now is shedding light on these injustices and this corruption. She's like, I would rather go to jail wrongfully convicted than plea guilty and get a lesser sentence. Because she's like, I'm not going to give them that. And she really believes her purpose right now is exposing this really corrupt police system.

[Lauren]

So basically after it comes out that the jurors, you know, hey, you know, we were unanimous on these first two counts. Karen Reid's attorneys say this might be double jeopardy. You shouldn't be able to prosecute her again for those same charges if theoretically everyone was unanimous. But Judge Canone denies that. And so the second trial stands.

[Chandler]

They also appealed it to the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court, but that court upheld the decision in February 2025, keeping all the charges intact. According to Karen Reid's interview with vanity fair in October 2024, she is currently $5 million in debt and legal fees and is living off her 401k. And that is just from the first trial. There is still a second trial that will raise her bill significantly. It is unknown whether this case is being billed At a normal rate, reduced or pro bono due to his high profile. I mean, this is the, the case of a lifetime for Alan Jackson and this team.

[Lauren]

Well, I don't know if you know this, but Alan Jackson also defended Kevin Spacey.

[Chandler]

Oh, I didn't know.

[Lauren]

He's like, he's a high profile attorney, but this is, you know, the first time I'd heard of him.

[Chandler]

Yeah. So there's a legal defense fund that has received over 914,000 in donations from the public. But that's a far cry from what she owes. Even from just the first trial.

[Lauren]

Right.

[Chandler]

It's just really, really insane to think about how she's even going to like repair her life after this is over. If she's acquitted, I will be so.

[Lauren]

Surprised if she even stays in Boston.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Lauren]

You know, I, I feel like you'd have to move.

[Chandler]

Well, I kind of feel like she's almost a local hero in Boston.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

Because I feel like almost everyone is on her side.

[Lauren]

I feel like a lot of people are, but also lot of people aren't.

[Chandler]

Right. You know, a lot of people in like, that are like connecting those friends. Yeah.

[Lauren]

And the fact that these people are, you know, so many years out from this, I think, I believe he died in 2022. We are three years from that. And everyone from the prosecution's camp is sticking to their story.

[Chandler]

It's really unfathomable. The other thing I think is interesting about it is Karen dated him for two years and has been three years since his death. And I think a lot of people like expect her to still be bereaved. But this was not even a perfect relationship. This was not like her one true love. And they were going to get married. They had issues, they had things that they were going through. And it was interesting to hear her interviewed. And she basically says, like, I have a lot of complicated emotions looking back, like, obviously, you know, she loved him, but look at like what this has done to her life.

[Lauren]

It's totally upended her life and this is going to define her.

[Chandler]

Yeah, no, absolutely.

[Lauren]

And the other, the other really sad part about all this is that like John O'Keefe, who was a beloved uncle, friend, police officer, like his, his memory is now completely kind of like tangled up in this mess. And it's just really sad for everyone involved.

[Chandler]

No, absolutely. So the retrial of Karen Reed has been unfolding through 2025, following months of pre trial litigation. In the months between the mistrial and the retrial, both sides battle battled over evidence and trial Procedure. Karen Reid's defense filed multiple motions alleging police and prosecutorial misconduct, including a February 2025 motion to dismiss the case for extraordinary governmental misconduct. Judge Kanoni reviewed but denied the dismissal motion on March 25, allowing the retrial to proceed. One interesting thing also about that alternate juror they hired is that apparently they hired her because she said, I want to work for your team, because she was so moved by the miscarriage of justice she felt she was seeing. So I think that also just goes to show why so many people are so caught up in this case. Right. Because we all look at it and we think, like, I could be her.

[Lauren]

Yeah, absolutely. This could happen to me. And they see corruption in their community.

[Chandler]

Yeah, absolutely. So jury selection took 10 days, with Judge Kanoni calling the process deliberately slow due to the case's notoriety. The final jury includes 18 members, 12 jurors, and six alternates. So. But evenly between men and women.

[Lauren]

So the prosecution has a new attorney. His name is Hank Brennan. And, you know, the previous prosecutor was not as, you know, dazzling, I'll say, as Alan Jackson. He kind of was a little bit sleepy and just really did not present a really strong case and didn't have a lot of energy, I would say, and gusto that really, I think, could have compelled the jury.

[Chandler]

Yeah, I think being a good litigator requires you to be a really good storyteller, a great orator. Like, you need to be a good actor.

[Lauren]

Yeah, it's a performance.

[Chandler]

Performance, exactly.

[Lauren]

Okay, so let's get into some of the new evidence that's going to be, you know, in this second trial. So there will be cell phone data, apparently the iPhone temperature, that will help establish a timeline. I'm guessing this is John's iPhone to see, you know, what temperature his iPhone was at during the course of the night, as well as vehicle telemetry, which is, I guess, like a black box from Karen Reed's Lexus that would allegedly show unusual maneuvers consistent with hitting something. And also, I think, more angry voicemails from Karen suggesting, you know, knowledge of John's situation. We already heard angry voicemails in the first trial, but it looks like there's going to be more in this one.

[Chandler]

Yeah, I mean, all of this is scary. Should be scary for Karen Reid. I will be very interested to get these new pieces of evidence, because if there's any world where she could have accidentally done this or done this knowingly, we, obviously, John O'Keefe's death is what we're all exploring here and trying to get to the bottom of. It's not just getting Karen Reid acquitted at all costs. We really want to know the truth. And if it comes out that, you know, there's really hard proof showing that his cell phone never warmed up after he left her car, that's a little sketchy. You know, maybe they got in a fight on the lawn. Who knows? Maybe the dog came out.

[Lauren]

Yeah. Something I struggle with is, okay, well, you know, if she didn't hit him, which I believe she did not, but if she didn't, how soon into the night did the fight happen? Did this tragedy happen? It seems kind of weird that you go from one minute, you know, everything's good, come over to my house, which you'll hear about in our full deep dive about the events of that night to then they walk in the door and then all of a sudden you're getting attacked. Like, that seems really far fetched to me. I think that, like, it just doesn't make a lot of sense either way. I wish that there was more theory about, like, how this actually went down. And the theory is that, like, about, I think, Brian Albert's son, and they're just a little bit more flimsy.

[Chandler]

I mean, the simplest theory, Occam's Razor, in this case, would state that Karen Reed accidentally hit John. In my opinion, she was drunk, she was driving. She doesn't remember a lot. She doesn't remember a lot. That is the simplest explanation. Right. We have no evidence there was anything, you know, that he even went inside that night because they alleged they never even saw him.

[Lauren]

The only evidence that we have is that from, like, his Apple Watch.

[Chandler]

But even that location data doesn't show him inside the house.

[Lauren]

I think they show, like, yeah, steps, I guess. You know, if she hit him and then he immediately was on the ground, why would there be steps showing him from his Apple Watch or from his Apple health data later on in the night?

[Chandler]

There are. Yeah. Oh, okay. I didn't know that. Okay, so that, that's.

[Lauren]

But I think that's like, you get one expert who says that that data is accurate, and then you get one expert who says it's not. So it's.

[Chandler]

Yeah, right. Well, truly, the simplest explanation, I believe, is that she accidentally hit him. That, to me, is the simplest explanation. She's blackout drunk. She goes home, she somehow, like, doesn't realize. Okay. She calls him, she's upset, she comes back, she has hit him. And that's when she says, I hit him. Could I have hit him? The problem is that there are so Many confounding other circumstantial weird things going on around this case that completely destroys the simple theory. Right. Because there's just too much cover up strange behavior of all these people that would not have happened, in my opinion, if there wasn't something else going on.

[Lauren]

The biggest weird thing for me that I continue to go back to is the fact that Brian Higgins and Brian Albert both destroyed their phones and SIM cards. So Brian Albert, the homeowner, you know, the person who was inside the house at the time of John O'Keeffe's death. You know, there were butt dials and phone calls. Allegedly.

[Chandler]

They also keep butt dialing each other.

[Lauren]

Between him and Brian Higgins, who was also inside the house, was also a part of the group that night. In the middle of the night, there was one call that connected for 22 seconds.

[Chandler]

That's just a. But that was a butt dial.

[Lauren]

Brian Albert claims that he was in the middle of lovemaking. And anyway, both of these men were told that their phones were going to be subpoenaed. And I think you're given some type of formal notice. Like, hey, just so you know, in the next day or so your phone's gonna be subpoenaed, the phone records or whatever.

[Chandler]

No, no, they were going to be given basically an order not to destroy their phone. Yeah, yeah, and you're right. He destroyed his phone and SIM card, disposed of it in two different locations. In two different locations.

[Lauren]

One on a military base.

[Chandler]

He did that the day before he was given that order. So a lot of people believe that this is very kind of like inside baseball or whatever. Just kind of like not inside baseball, but there's like an inside person said, hey, you're about to get this order. Destroy your phone.

[Lauren]

Yeah, you don't go.

[Chandler]

You don't destroy your phone if you have nothing to hide. That's so.

[Lauren]

Destroyed a phone of yours ever.

[Chandler]

Wait, here's another question I have. Chandler. Why would you ever remodel your basement floors? So this is another very confounding piece of this. But the house outside of which this happened, they sold three months after under market value. Brian Albert sold that house under market value. They also redid the basement floors. I guess they wanted to do some remodeling before they sold it at a loss.

[Lauren]

And I believe that the basement floors had already been redone three years before that.

[Chandler]

Why are we redoing the basement floors when we just redid them three years ago?

[Lauren]

For what it's worth, that was also a home that had been in his family since childhood.

[Chandler]

Then they also, I mean, that point alone is just like, this is a family home. Okay. It makes no sense. They re home. This dog that they've. That he has had for seven years. He. They claimed that the dog got in like a fight with another dog or there was just some incident. But it's just. It's just like all of this is.

[Lauren]

Really, really bizarre, especially when John has markings on his arms that are consistent with bite marks. There's just too many weird factors. Outside of Karen exiting the driveway and driving home, there's too many other weird things that happen.

[Chandler]

Exactly. Like the pieces of taillight that they find on the snow. They don't find those until, I believe the next is it's a really long time.

[Lauren]

So they were like collecting evidence in the wee hours, you know, right after they found John. And then later on that day, they go back to do, you know, more.

[Chandler]

Evidence collection, taken her car into custody.

[Lauren]

Have, you know, taken her car, seized her car, and they find all this other evidence and which they then store and capture in red solo cups and stop and shop bags.

[Chandler]

Also, the evidence that they do find that morning are clear shards of a cocktail glass. Right. Which is he brought home from the waterfall. That bar they were at. So they were able to find clear glass, but they couldn't find red pieces of a tail light. Multiple red pieces of tail light. Also, they take her car into custody and the surveillance footage, like showing her car, they invert it so that they thought they were looking at.

[Lauren]

You would think you're looking at the side with the taillight that, you know, had apparently hit John.

[Chandler]

Right. There's video footage of a person walking by that taillight and potentially, you know, could have at that moment taken some.

[Lauren]

Pieces and they intentionally inverted that footage. Allegedly. They claim that that was an error in the camera.

[Chandler]

You know what I predict?

[Lauren]

What?

[Chandler]

First of all, it's just like that's not an error in the camera. That doesn't really happen. But the other thing I will say is I actually predict that with this cell phone data, with this vehicle telemetry, with these angry voicemails, I just think that this is going to be the same as all the other, like the Apple data and the Google search from Jennifer McCabe. It's like there's just going to be an expert from each side. That kind of explains it away. Well, I don't believe that there's a smoking gun that they found.

[Lauren]

I will say a, you know, maybe a lightly smoking gun for me is the still the Google search and the fact that the Google search was deleted. Okay, that deleted your deleted. To quote Brittany from Real Housewives of Salt Lake City.

[Chandler]

I mean we're, we're spending quite a bit of time rehashing now, but I feel like I could literally have the same conversation a hundred times and be riveted every time. So Jennifer McCabe, one of the people at the house that night, Brian Albert's.

[Lauren]

Sister in law, I believe she googles.

[Chandler]

At 2:23 in the morning, house long.

[Lauren]

To die in cold. Yes, she misspells how.

[Chandler]

Right. And then the next morning when they, when she goes with Karen Reed to go looking for John because Karen calls her when she realizes that John has not come home. They find John and she says that at that moment Karen tells her to Google how long for someone to die in the cold. And that Google search, she was just on a, basically a browser she had been using at 2:23. She clicked into it like that window and for that reason it like misread the time she googled that.

[Lauren]

But then, which is like to me is plausible.

[Chandler]

Right?

[Lauren]

But why would that search deleted? Cause that search was then later marked as deleted when they went into like you know, the full phone records and everything.

[Chandler]

Did Carrie Reid ever say whether she actually asked her Jennifer to Google that?

[Lauren]

I'm not sure.

[Chandler]

Yeah, I never heard about that either. Real talk. Your mom deserves better than another candle or bouquet of grocery store flowers this Mother's Day. Give her something she will actually use. Like Masterclass. Masterclass is a streaming platform where she can learn from over 200 plus icons for just $10 a month billed annually. Picture her creating that dream Martha Stewart worthy home. After taking Martha's class, mastering improv with Amy Poehler or finding her inner fabulous with RuPaul, moms really can do it all. After watching Martha's Masterclass, I'm officially ready to throw a dinner party that would even make Martha proud. And I know your mom will be just as excited to put her new skills to work. Plus she can stream classes anytime on her phone, laptop, TV or even in audio mode. And every membership comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. Our listeners always get great discounts on Masterclass of at least 15% off any annual [e-mail] Popapologists. See Masterclass's latest deal at least 15% [e-mail] Popapologist Popapologists is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart Choice Progressive loves to help people make smart choices. That's why they offer a tool called Auto Quote Explorer that allows you to compare your Progressive Car Insurance quote with rates from other companies. So you save time on the research and can enjoy the best savings when you choose the best rate for you. Give it a try after this [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. Okay. So the prosecutions, you know, this go around, they're going to use these new pieces of evidence that they're going to try to get Karen with. They also are going to really focus, as they really did in the first trial, on her saying at the scene, I hit him, I hit him, I hit him. Her version of that is that she was saying, could I have hit him? Basically, like, I hit him. Like, she was just very confused.

[Lauren]

Yeah. And in a state of shock.

[Chandler]

Another part of this is that they are going to focus a lot on clips of her giving interviews that she has given since the first trial to try to basically, you know, get her in trouble with her own words, as we discussed earlier in this episode. So we're going to play a clip in here that was played during opening statements from a Dayline interview she gave where she says she could have clipped him. And you're going to hear from her own clips. In many of her statements, her missions to extraordinary intoxications, her admissions to driving the election, her admissions to being angry at dawn that night. Let the plate. You clip one, you're gonna hear the first of the statements that she made after she was dark. I mean, I. I didn't think I hit him, hit him, but could I have clipped him? Could I tagged him in the knee and incapacitated him? He. He didn't look mortally molded as far as I could see, but could I have done something that knocked him out and. And in his drunkenness and in the cold didn't come to again? And this would have been the moment you dropped him off at the party. Yeah, yeah. Would have had to. My comment on this clip is that she's clearly saying that she's wondering in that moment, could she have clipped in. She's just giving a narrative, the same narrative they've been giving that she's questioning. Could she have hit him? That's it. She's not admitting to anything.

[Lauren]

Yeah, I don't think that she. She doesn't say. Yeah, I didn't say that.

[Chandler]

Right, right.

[Lauren]

You know, I think that they're looking at it as an admission of guilt, and she's looking at it as could I have hit him. Did I hit him?

[Chandler]

Right. That was her state of mind at the moment.

[Lauren]

Yes.

[Chandler]

Okay, so defense attorney Alan Jackson, he is really going to focus this time around that there was no evidence of a collision between John O'Keefe and Karen's Lexus.

[Lauren]

One of the biggest parts I think, of this to touch on is that the medical examiner for the county would not rule his death as being caused by, you know, a vehicular. A homicide. And the fact that his injuries were.

[Chandler]

Not consistent with being hit by a car.

[Lauren]

Yeah. And the fact that his injuries were not consistent with being hit by a car at all, that was like, this person said, they look at hundreds. You know, they've seen so many car accident victims.

[Chandler]

Right.

[Lauren]

His injuries were not like that. And I'll just say about the two opening statements, Alan Jackson's were quite riveting. I. I found it to really, like, carry my interest. And, you know, the prosecutions were just not as compelling.

[Chandler]

Really. Okay, so this attorney, still not as good.

[Lauren]

Yeah. I mean, I think Alan Jackson is really good at what he's. What he does.

[Chandler]

You're also physically attracted to Alan Jackson.

[Lauren]

You're also physically attracted to Alan Jackson.

[Chandler]

The beard is a good look.

[Lauren]

I don't know if I love the beard, but. Yeah, the things we're revealing that we're not fully unbiased in this. I. I'm attracted to Karen Reed.

[Chandler]

We are physically attracted to her. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Also, I will say what's difficult for me is I know he has a wife, but I really want him and Karen to get married. Like, at the end of this, I.

[Lauren]

Too, like, I just feel.

[Chandler]

I just feel like they're. They have to be in love.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

I don't know. I'm. I'm very irrationally into them, period.

[Lauren]

When I try to commune with Ben about how Alan Jackson is attractive. Ben says that he looks like he has. He's someone on too much testosterone because his nipples are kind of puffy.

[Chandler]

Okay, well, please don't say that about Alan. The other thing, I just feel like they also look so similar.

[Lauren]

I know.

[Chandler]

They have such a similar, like, hot, weathered look.

[Lauren]

I like, love the way Karen's mouth moves.

[Chandler]

She's very arrested.

[Lauren]

She's very arresting. Okay. But anyway, to move on, we probably should scratch that from the record, but.

[Chandler]

Oh, my gosh.

[Lauren]

Yeah. Anyway, so Alan Jackson had an impressive opening statement. The prosecution's opening statement was based all around, you know, the perspective of the emergency medical responders and the people who, you know, the EMS services and the Prosecution's, you know, opening statements were all around the perspective of a first responder on the scene, and I think that it was just a little bit less powerful.

[Chandler]

Well, as someone who tried to buy a free Karen Reid hat recently, I would say that is. I'm happy to know that, because I don't want, you know, some talented prosecutor to be on the case right now. Yeah, there weren't any cute ones, I'll be honest. Yeah. So Alan Jackson is claiming that the investigation is riddled with bias and confidence in deceit, accusing trooper Michael Proctor of fabricating evidence and covering up alternative causes. So in the first trial, they brought up the possibility of Colin Albert being a potential suspect, but they're not allowed to do that in this second trial.

[Lauren]

Yeah, and I'll just. I think I can summarize the last few bullets here. He really focuses on reasonable doubt, the fact that there's just not enough evidence.

[Chandler]

Right.

[Lauren]

And he hits on that, and, you know, in a dramatic flourish, he repeats, not guilty. Not guilty. Not guilty.

[Chandler]

Not guilty. Not guilty. Not guilty.

[C]

The commonwealth presented this exact same claim to their own medical examiner, woman by the name of Dr. Irini Scordi Bello. And you'll learn that after reviewing law enforcement, what's called a law enforcement accident notifier, with law enforcement's theory of the collision written in it, defined in it. After conducting the autopsy herself, after examining John's injuries in detail, she refused to conclude that John's death was a homicide. Based on the commonwealth's presentation and their theory. That's right. The commonwealth's own medical examiner will not deem the manner of death in this case, this case, a homicide. She won't do it. But they're nonetheless back again, trying to present the existence exact same theory to you in this trial. Again, the evidence will show that that is reasonable doubt. Throughout this trial, the commonwealth will try to convince you of paranormal events. Phones calling themselves, messages deleting themselves, Google searches made and then unmade. Evidence magically appearing and evidence magically disappearing. But all that smoke and all those mirrors will not ever reach their burden, because that's what this case is ultimately about. It's about the commonwealth's burden of proof. You'll learn that during the trial, the commonwealth bears the highest burden known to our justice system. They must prove every element of every charge beyond a reasonable doubt and to a moral certainty. And you'll learn that moral certainty means the highest, highest level of certainty known in human affairs. It's not a small thing. They're not going to be able to do that. Not when every piece of this case was handled by a disgraced investigator with a motive to protect his friends. Not when the physical evidence contradicts their very theory. Not when their own medical examiner won't call this case a homicide based on the exact theory that they're presenting to you. Not when the conduct of those in the house and the utter lack of investigation speaks volumes about those who actually have something to hide. By the end of this trial, you'll conclude that Karen Reid is not guilty of hitting John O'Keefe with her SUV. There was no collision. She's the victim of a botched and biased and corrupted investigation that was never about the. The truth, folks. It was about preserving loyalty. You'll find that this case is the very definition of reasonable doubt. And at the end of this trial, we'll ask you to return the only verdicts, all three of them, that are consistent with the evidence, the science, the truth, and justice. Not guilty. Not guilty. Not guilty.

[Lauren]

You know, in this first week of the trial, we heard from paramedic Timothy Natal, or Nuttall. He testified that he found John O'Keefe unresponsive and that Karen Reed repeatedly said, I hit him. We also heard from Carrie Roberts, a new witness and family friend, who testified that Karen called her in a panic, suggesting John might have been hit by a plow, which prosecutors argue that that shows her guilt. I don't believe this. I think the fact that he, you know, Karen woke up at 4am or whatever, he still wasn't home. The snow is crazy. And, you know, John would not. Not come home.

[Chandler]

Right.

[Lauren]

And so she was thinking, you know, it's like. Yeah, it is like, I think your first thought when someone you expect to be home is not home, and it's the wee hours in the morning, you're like, oh, my gosh, something really bad happened. And they're not responding to your calls. I think that just shows that you're in a level of panic, not that you're in a level of. I think I hit him. Hit him with my car.

[Chandler]

Right, right. And also, one thing is, if Karen did hit him and then flee the scene, his body would have been out on that lawn for the entire night. But the plow driver who went by twice and who says he has great visibility would have. Absolutely.

[Lauren]

He's a plow driver. He's a. He's supposed to have great visibility.

[Chandler]

Huge bright lights. He says he did not see him. And Michael Proctor, in his investigation, said no one plowed that night and lied.

[Lauren]

About That, I mean, also people left the party allegedly and didn't see his body.

[Chandler]

But Peggy O'Keefe. So John's mother emotionally testified in this first week of trial that Karen admitted, quote, I left him there during a call. Defense did decline to cross examine her because they just said it would look, you know, I think the idea is it's not going to look good to cross examine the mother of this man who's died.

[Lauren]

Yeah, you know, it's very sad. She has, she lost her daughter and her son in law. It's just, it's very, very sad. Then there's Mike Camera, a friend who described the night, you know, that they were all out, that John and Karen were happy and affectionate. So, you know, basically saying there was no motive.

[Chandler]

So it's expected in the coming days and weeks of the trial, other major witnesses from the first trial will return. Jennifer McCabe, Brian Albert, Colin Albert, Brian Higgins. All of the names that are on the witness list. Though it remains to be seen if the prosecutor will call the Alberts or if the defense will in their case. Trooper Proctor, now fired, is also on the list and could be called, which would be highly dramatic, giving the accusations against him. So another interesting thing is that the jurors have gone to 34 Fairview, where this all happened, and they basically have like done a field trip. Yeah. So I guess they went there with a court guide and all the attorneys, but no one was really allowed to say anything except for the court guide who could kind of point out where specific things were alleged to be to have happened. And so that way they can get an idea, like, if I'm leaving this house, am I going to see a body right here or am I not going to notice? It's how far away is it?

[Lauren]

Yeah, I think that's such a good point. Like, it's hard for me, even though I'm a student of this case, like to know how big is this lawn, how far away is the driveway from where he was found, etc. How far away is Brian Albert's window from where he was found? It could be a massive front lawn. I don't know.

[Chandler]

So the other key part of this is that Alan Jackson's case right now, it is all about the fact that her vehicle did not hit him. Right. And apparently they are, you know, they have this expert witness that's going to come in and there's going to be new evidence, but they just had what's called a. I don't know how to pronounce voir deer Hearing. They said a voir dire hearing. Thank you, Chandler. And this hearing took place outside the presence of the jury. And it was held to evaluate whether expert crash reconstruction testimony from the ARCCA ARCA could be presented during the trial. The testimony relates to biomechanical evidence and vehicle damage analysis that the defense argues supports their theory that Karen Reed did not hit John O'Keefe with her SUV. So obviously, like, this seems to be the heart of the new defense of Karen Reed. And really that was a big part of the opening statements. The prosecution challenged the timing and scope of the defense's disclosure of this expert with evidence. They claimed the defense failed to properly turn over all data or comply with procedural deadlines, raising concerns about fairness and trial integrity. The defense argues that ARCA analysis is key to showing that O'Keeffe's injuries don't align with being struck by a car, but rather suggest a potential cover up and assault. So Judge Kanoni, her testimony from ARCA experts like Dr. Andrew Renssler. She has not yet ruled on whether the jury will be allowed to hear the expert crash testimony, but it will be a huge blow to Karen Reed if they cannot bring in this expert.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

So anyway, everyone, we wanted to bring you a little refresher on this case. We're obviously going to be seeing this through. It's extremely riveting. Yeah. Okay. To finish off the episode, can we just do a quick pulse check on Travis Kelce unfollowing Ryan Reynolds?

[Lauren]

It's a huge deal.

[Chandler]

There's no denying that. There wasn't a call with tree pain that was like, yeah, unfollow him. Like, we want to be firmly. Oh, my gosh. It's coming to me. I'm a visionary.

[Lauren]

Yeah, you are.

[Chandler]

I'm a seer. She. I believe something must be coming in this case. Right. Where Taylor's camp knows that Blake and Ryan are going to look really bad. And my theory is they're like, we do not want to seem like we're in any way Team Blake.

[Lauren]

Not only are they distancing themselves from them, but they're like, actively saying, like, we are no longer aligned with these people at all.

[Chandler]

Right. And I think that they said the best way to do this without having Taylor involved is if Travis Kelce unfollows Ryan and Blake.

[Lauren]

I think it also calls into question all the other stories about how, you know, Taylor's supporting her from behind the scenes. Were all those reports just coming from Blake's camp?

[Chandler]

I mean, who knows? That's a. That's such A good question. I mean it. 100%, everyone. This was not an accident. This was an approved move. He did it. Tree pain co signed it. Taylor Swift co signed it.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

And this was intentional?

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

There's no other way. You don't just accidentally unfollow Ryan Reynolds and especially, like.

[Lauren]

And Blake Lively.

[Chandler]

Right. He unfollowed them both. Although we. I don't know if he ever did follow Blake Lively.

[Lauren]

That would be crazy if he never followed Blake Lively.

[Chandler]

It's true. So I definitely think this is really bad for Blake Lively, and I don't know, it's kind of crazy that. Could Taylor be Team Justin Chandler?

[Lauren]

I don't know. Okay, well, Meghan Markle went on a podcast for the very first time. She made her podcast guest debut, and Lauren and I listened to it.

[Chandler]

Oh, we sure did. Please take it away, Chandler.

[Lauren]

This podcast is very different from our podcast. Yeah, it is just a lot more heartwarming.

[Chandler]

It's a little more chicken soup for the woman's soul. Yeah.

[Lauren]

But it's Megan with her good friend. What's her name? She's the founder of IT Cosmetics, I believe.

[Chandler]

Yeah. I don't know. Except that she apparently sold her company to L'Oreal for, like, billions of dollars. Jamie Kern. Jamie Kern. Thank you, Jamie, for this interview. I cannot believe how long they were able to talk honestly about absolutely nothing.

[Lauren]

I'll just say I just found it to be kind of boring.

[Chandler]

Oh, it was extremely boring. It was just.

[Lauren]

Yeah, it was just very boring and just a little too heartening for me.

[Chandler]

It's just so strange because me. And honestly, like, people are not going to believe this when I say it. I do want the best for her. I do. I honestly do support her. I just don't know anyone else like this. I don't know anyone who speaks in this kind of, like, cloying, saccharine, just kind of hollow way about everything. It's like, everything. Anything you could discuss. It's wrapped in a bow of, like, being better and hope and being a better friend and acceptance and love and all.

[Lauren]

It's like everything is an After School Special.

[Chandler]

There's just no part of it that's in any way, like, relatable or kind of chill or kind of.

[Lauren]

I think she tries to. When she, like, has that moment where she breaks down and she's crying and she says, like, this is why it's nice not wear makeup or, you know, like, she. She tries, but I think the friend is exactly like her.

[Chandler]

The friend is exactly like her. So that's why I'm like, these people.

[Lauren]

Exist, and they're happy and they're living their life, but they're not in our circles.

[Chandler]

They're. I've never met. I've never met anyone like them, but they do exist. I mean, this is just my favorite part of the interview. Especially women against each other when you're like, but you're my neighbor and everything's fine. Yeah. Like, I don't know. It's wild. So, yeah, I had no idea. Like, and I think I know a lot. Yeah. And I had no idea. But just, like, the essence of. Of. Of a person. Even one of my, you know, Marcus. But Marcus will see certain things. And he goes, ah, there's my friend. Yes. And get so excited when you can see me reflected in a way. That's the me that you know. Yes. And so what a gift that is. And she just. So. Yeah. Letting me be. Thank you for letting me be. That's, like, the best thing a friend could ever say to me. Oh, well. And you think even as I said it, I was going, wow, growing up, you would hear people like, just let. Just let me be. But with a completely different intention and intonation of like, thank you for letting me be. You made me cry. Good thing I have no makeup on. You look so pretty.

[Lauren]

Oh, my gosh.

[Chandler]

I don't even. I mean, do I just have a black soul? Like, thank you for letting me be.

[Lauren]

I think it's just, thank you for letting me be.

[Chandler]

Chandler.

[Lauren]

I don't know. I think that, like, no, your soul is in black. I just think that some people, like, eat that up. We don't.

[Chandler]

We don't. No, we just don't. And I just find it to be so silly. I don't know.

[Lauren]

The problem is with Megan is that she's just really not our girly. And so we struggle to obsess over her because, like, we. We struggle to find where, like, the similarities lie and, like, the way that we talk and, like, the things that we, like, think about.

[Chandler]

Yeah. I just find that nothing really arrives at much substance. That it all kind of stays really in the realm of, like, platitudes and niceties. And there just can be a lack of, like, disclosure and substance to what's being said.

[Lauren]

Totally. And, like. And maybe real vulnerability. But you know what? That conversation might have filled her cup or whatever they say.

[Chandler]

Like, for example, she says in this interview that she sends a nightly email to Lilibet and to Archie. A nightly email with photos that are just candid and, like, Wouldn't necessarily go in a scrapbook or something like, and she said, you know, when they turn 18 or something, she's going to give them access to those emails. Do you want thousands and thousands of emails someday? Is that what you want to go through? I don't.

[Lauren]

I mean, I can't even write in a journal for myself.

[Chandler]

Like, it's just this, the insistence of depicting yourself as Mother Teresa. Yes. To me is what I find to just be really off putting. It's like, girl, most of the moms I know, once their kids are in bed, they're just like so happy to scroll on their phone to shop online. They're not like, oh my gosh, let me, you know, let me send them love letters now.

[Lauren]

Totally.

[Chandler]

It's just so over the top. I mean, maybe that's what you do though, when you have a full time nanny and you just have less. You have more time.

[Lauren]

I guess. So can we talk about the nickname thing? Because I feel like they hit on that. Maybe they were speaking to me because remember how I said that I felt like the, the nickname H was so weird.

[Chandler]

Yes. Yes.

[Lauren]

Well, they, like hit on that. I think they are literally. They, they must have heard our podcast and, you know, knew that they needed to clap back.

[Chandler]

It made more sense to me when she explained it.

[Lauren]

Absolutely did. Because she basically says that, you know, for the first few months or whatever of her and Harry dating, it was a secret.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Lauren]

So you had to call him H and he called her M. And anyway, they, like, they talked about that for a while. She was like, I love nicknames. Yeah.

[Chandler]

It's just like, that made more sense.

[Lauren]

It's after listening to her, unfortunately, it doesn't necessarily nourish my soul in the way that I feel like I would like my soul to be nourished.

[Chandler]

No, it doesn't nourish my soul at all. It's just, I just feel bored.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

I don't feel enriched or uplifted in any sort of, like, meaningful way. I just kind of feel like, oh.

[Lauren]

It'S all very like, Hallmark card.

[Chandler]

Did you catch the part where she says the run goes, do you think you'll be married forever?

[Lauren]

And what did she say?

[Chandler]

She goes, yeah, like, it was so funny. I was shocked they left it in. What a question is that? Do you think you'll be married like Chandler? Do you think you'll be married forever? I hope so. Who knows?

[Lauren]

Who knows?

[Chandler]

Only time will tell. Well, thank you guys so much for listening today.

[Lauren]

Thank you for listening.

[Chandler]

Thank you for this program.

[Lauren]

Yeah. Thank you for being here. We love you. And we will be back on Friday.

[Chandler]

We're back on Friday with a mini episode for Global Elites on Monday with Chandler's interview with Ben. Chandler will be married to Ben, everyone. When you next hear her voice, when she's back on the show. The title of the show should be.

[Lauren]

Mr. And Mrs. Manning.

[Chandler]

Oh, my gosh. So, so cute. Well, thank you, guys and we'll be back next week. Bye.

[Lauren]

Bye.

[Chandler]

One more update, everyone. Sorry I'm hopping on behind the mic. It's late at night. But I wanted to have this episode be as up to date as possible. And in the time since Chandler and I recorded this episode earlier this afternoon, Judge Kanoni has ruled to allow the ARCO witnesses. This is a huge, huge moment for Karen Reed and the defense. So this is what she said, though. She said, no more nonsense. Let's just try this case. That's what Judge Canoni said while announcing her decision to allow two controversial witnesses to testify for the defense. The judge expressed her displeasure at, quote, repeated violations by Reid's team regarding the sharing of information about two witnesses from forensics and engineering firm arca, but ultimately decided that, quote, a defendant's right to a fair trial is paramount. She says, I'm going to allow the ARCA witnesses to testify. I'm going to allow what I expect to be very robust cross examination. I'm going to allow them to testify to everything they said up until yesterday. And then she said, I expect counsel to comply with all rulings and the rules of the court and all rules of professional conduct. This is a great triumphant moment for Karen Reed and Alan Jackson and her defense team. So I hope you guys have enjoyed this deep dive. Chandler and I will absolutely be back for part three. And with that, we'll see you on Friday for our global elite mini clocking out of the content factory.

[C]

I'm Tucker.

[Chandler]

And I'm Becca. And this is a podcast where we take a break from climbing the absolute corporate ladder that is being a TikToker. That's right. This is the most corporate podcast for the least corporate girlies in this pod. We're in the break room with you guys, our gorgeous, gorgeous co workers, and.

[C]

You may be wondering what goes on.

[Chandler]

In the content factory. Give us the agenda, Tucker.

[C]

Well, each episode starts with a performance.

[Chandler]

Review where we talk about what's going on in the week. Content. We're making DMs. We're getting a little peek behind the curtain of the content creator life.

[C]

We also will be doing an HR.

[Chandler]

Report where we ask you guys during the week what what is some workplace drama you got going on?

[C]

And we'll end each episode with a.

[Chandler]

Rapid fire and hire things we want to get rid of and things we want to keep. For example, Becca, what do you want to fire this week? My ibs. Absolutely.

[Lauren]

Okay.

[C]

And before we go, we have some action items for you.

[Chandler]

Please complete by end of day follow rate and review the Content factory wherever you get your podcasts.

[C]

And as always, we'll circle back soon.

[Chandler]

Pluto TV has all the shows and movies you love streaming for free. That means laughter is free with gut busting comedies like the Neighborhood Boomerang and Ferris Bueller's Day Off. Bueller Mystery is free with countless cases to crack from Criminal Minds Tracker and Matlock. I'm a lawyer like the old TV show and thrills are free with heart pumping hits like the Walking Dead and Pulp Fiction. Correctamundo. Feel the free Pluto TV stream now pay Never.