276: Blake Betrays Taylor, Cassie Testifies Against Diddy, and the Mormon Wives are Back

Summary

Pop Apologists Podcast - Episode 276 Summary

Title: Blake Betrays Taylor, Cassie Testifies Against Diddy, and the Mormon Wives are Back
Hosts: Courtney Grow and Chandler
Release Date: May 21, 2025
Podcast Description: A podcast by two sisters who care about celebrities as much as their family.

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1. Taylor Swift and Blake Lively: A Fractured Friendship

Timestamp: 1:29 - 12:00

The episode kicks off with Chandler expressing deep concern over recent developments between superstars Taylor Swift and Blake Lively. She describes witnessing Chandler's emotional reaction upon hearing unsettling news about their friendship, setting a somber tone for their discussion.

Key Points:

• Legal Tensions: Blake Lively's attorney allegedly sent a letter to Taylor Swift's legal team, seeking to subpoena Swift's text messages. Furthermore, Blake's side reportedly threatened to release a decade's worth of private communications unless Swift publicly supported Blake Lively.

  • Courtney Grow (02:39): "Blake's attorney sent a letter to Taylor's attorneys... threatening to release 10 years of private text messages."

• Emotional Impact: Chandler shares her personal turmoil, feeling that the once genuine friendship between Taylor and Blake has been irreparably damaged by these legal maneuvers.

  • Chandler (03:00): "I was already destabilized. And then when I heard this, it just kind of ripped me open in a way."

• Character Assassination: Courtney paints Blake Lively in a negative light, suggesting manipulative and deceitful behavior.

  • Courtney Grow (04:27): "Looking back, seeing how manipulative and conniving and Machiavellian this woman is."

• Genuine Friendship Doubts: Despite Chandler's belief in the authenticity of Taylor's feelings towards Blake, both hosts express skepticism about the true nature of their relationship.

  • Chandler (05:08): "I do believe that there was a real friendship there. That there was at least at one point there was... but it totally hit the skids."

• Legal Integrity Concerns: Courtney underscores the credibility issues surrounding Blake's legal team, citing Brian Friedman, an officer of the court whose actions could jeopardize his standing if found deceitful.

  • Courtney Grow (09:23): "Brian Friedman is an officer of the court. He could be disbarred if he was being duplicitous."

• Public vs. Private Persona: The hosts discuss the potential chaos and public outcry if private messages between the two celebrities were exposed, emphasizing the gravity of the situation.

  • Chandler (11:56): "I would riot in the streets."

Notable Quotes:

• Courtney Grow (02:39): "Blake's attorney... threatening to release 10 years of private text messages."
• Chandler (03:00): "It just kind of ripped me open in a way."
• Courtney Grow (09:23): "Brian Friedman... could be disbarred if he was being duplicitous."
• Chandler (11:56): "I would riot in the streets."

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2. “The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives” Season 2: An In-Depth Look

Timestamp: 17:25 - 43:55

Courtney and Chandler transition to discussing the newly released second season of "The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives" on Hulu. Drawing from their own Mormon backgrounds and experiences at BYU, they delve into the show's portrayal of patriarchal structures and the struggles of young women within this community.

Key Points:

• Personal Connection: Both hosts share their familiarity with Mormon culture, enhancing their analysis of the show’s content.

  • Chandler (42:06): "We grew up Mormon and we went to BYU."

• Patriarchal Critique: They criticize the show's depiction of patriarchal beliefs, highlighting how these have stunted the personal growth and self-worth of the women featured.

  • Courtney Grow (29:22): "What Mom Talk is not doing is pushing the needle when it comes to patriarchy."

• Toxic Family Dynamics: The hosts express frustration with the on-screen portrayal of dysfunctional family relationships, particularly focusing on Taylor’s strained interactions with her parents and ex-boyfriend.

  • Chandler (30:06): "He just... treating you like this is the best she deserves."

• Cultural Commentary: Courtney warns young women in Provo, Utah, about the toxic dating culture depicted in the show, urging them to seek healthier environments.

  • Courtney Grow (42:45): "If you are dating in Provo, Utah, I would highly encourage you to leave."

• Emphasis on Self-Worth: Both hosts stress the importance of recognizing one's value and the necessity of leaving abusive or unfulfilling relationships.

  • Courtney Grow (37:17): "You deserve to be with someone you can trust."

Notable Quotes:

• Courtney Grow (29:22): "What Mom Talk is not doing is pushing the needle when it comes to patriarchy."
• Chandler (42:06): "We grew up Mormon and we went to BYU."
• Courtney Grow (42:45): "If you are dating in Provo, Utah, I would highly encourage you to leave."
• Courtney Grow (37:17): "You deserve to be with someone you can trust."

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3. Diddy’s Trial: Cassie Ventura’s Harrowing Testimony

Timestamp: 47:00 - 63:37

The conversation shifts to the high-profile trial of Sean “Diddy” Combs, focusing on Cassie Ventura’s emotional and detailed testimony against him. The hosts dissect the implications of her statements and the broader context of accountability for powerful individuals.

Key Points:

• Cassie’s Testimony: Cassie Ventura detailed her ten-year relationship with Diddy, highlighting severe physical abuse and Diddy’s control over her life, including forced participation in drug-fueled sex parties.

  • Courtney Grow (56:39): "Cassie Ventura took the stand. She gave her testimony. She described her 10-year relationship involving physical abuse."

• Impact of Abuse: The testimony underscores the mental and emotional toll of being in an abusive relationship, with Cassie recounting instances where Diddy’s behavior was erratic and harmful.

  • Courtney Grow (57:06): "He would throw you to the ground before?"

• Legal and Moral Accountability: The hosts argue that financial settlements are insufficient for true justice, emphasizing the need for legal repercussions for abusers.

  • Courtney Grow (61:13): "It's through money. It's an exchange of money. And yes, if you've had something horrible like this happen to you, it's going to change your entire life."

• Critique of Societal Responses: They draw parallels to other high-profile cases, expressing frustration over the lack of accountability for wealthy and influential men.

  • Chandler (63:08): "No actual justice."

• Support for Victims: Courtney advocates for supporting victims beyond financial compensation, highlighting the importance of holding perpetrators accountable to prevent future abuse.

  • Courtney Grow (62:36): "It's important for them to see that if Sean Diddy Combs can go to prison, yes, you bet your ass can go to prison."

Notable Quotes:

• Courtney Grow (56:39): "She described her 10-year relationship involving physical abuse."
• Courtney Grow (61:13): "It's through money. It's an exchange of money."
• Chandler (63:08): "No actual justice."
• Courtney Grow (62:36): "If Sean Diddy Combs can go to prison, yes, you bet your ass can go to prison."

---

4. “The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives” Season 2 Continued: Deeper Insights

Timestamp: 43:55 - 63:37

Furthering their discussion on "The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives," Courtney and Chandler delve into specific episodes, revealing their critiques of the show's portrayal of toxic relationships and patriarchal suppression.

Key Points:

• Episode Analysis: The hosts analyze scenes depicting Taylor’s heartbreak and her family’s inability to support her choices, highlighting the toxic dynamics at play.

  • Chandler (30:06): "Treating her like this is the best she deserves."

• Religious Influence: They critique how religious beliefs within the Mormon community contribute to the perpetuation of unhealthy relationships and stunted personal growth.

  • Courtney Grow (34:46): "Their religion actually doesn't run that deep inside of them."

• Broader Cultural Critique: The discussion extends to a wider condemnation of patriarchal values and the negative impact they have on young women's self-perception and relationships.

  • Courtney Grow (43:55): "These women are so stunted."

Notable Quotes:

• Chandler (30:06): "Treating her like this is the best she deserves."
• Courtney Grow (34:46): "Their religion actually doesn't run that deep inside of them."
• Courtney Grow (43:55): "These women are so stunted."

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5. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Timestamp: 63:37 - End

Wrapping up the episode, Courtney and Chandler briefly touch upon their personal reflections and reiterate the importance of addressing the issues discussed.

Key Points:

• Advocacy for Justice: Both hosts emphasize the need for systemic changes to support victims of abuse and dismantle toxic cultural norms.

• Listener Engagement: They encourage listeners to subscribe to bonus episodes and engage with their content for continued discussions on similar topics.

• Closing Remarks: The episode concludes with a light-hearted interaction, maintaining their signature blend of serious analysis and relatable banter.

Notable Quotes:

• Courtney Grow (63:37): "We will count Amani Cristo dig a tunnel for that bitch."
• Chandler (65:08): "Clocking outta the content factory."

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Overall Summary:

In this episode of Pop Apologists, hosts Courtney Grow and Chandler navigate through a whirlwind of celebrity dramas and societal critiques. They delve deep into the fractured friendship between Taylor Swift and Blake Lively, dissecting the legal threats and emotional fallout that have captivated public attention. Transitioning to the Mormon community, they provide a piercing analysis of the second season of "The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives," highlighting the pervasive patriarchal influences and the struggle for personal autonomy among young women.

The discussion intensifies as they cover Cassie Ventura’s harrowing testimony against Sean "Diddy" Combs, shedding light on the profound impacts of sustained abuse and the inadequacies of financial settlements in delivering true justice. Throughout the episode, Courtney and Chandler blend personal insights with sharp critiques, advocating for systemic change and genuine accountability in both personal relationships and broader cultural structures.

Key Takeaways:

• Celebrity Accountability: The Swift-Lively feud serves as a case study for examining the complexities of public friendships and the potential dark sides of celebrity interactions.
• Cultural Critique: "The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives" is used as a lens to critique patriarchal structures within religious communities, emphasizing the need for personal growth and self-worth.
• Justice and Abuse: Cassie Ventura’s testimony against Diddy highlights the challenges victims face in seeking justice and the limitations of current legal remedies.

This episode offers a compelling mix of celebrity gossip, cultural criticism, and advocacy for personal and systemic change, making it a must-listen for fans seeking both entertainment and insightful commentary.

Transcript

[Chandler]

McCrispy strips are now at McDonald's. Tender juicy and its own sauce. Would you look at that? Well, you can't see it, but trust.

[Lauren]

Me, it looks delicious.

[Chandler]

New McCrispy strips now at McDonald's.

[Courtney Grow]

This episode of Pop Apologists is brought.

[Wyatt Grow]

To you by booking dot com. Whether you want to earn more or grow a full on hosting business, check out booking.com today for the bookings you've dreamed of. List your property on booking.com.

[Chandler]

Well, well, well. Back together again 12 hours later.

[Courtney Grow]

Much to talk about, so much to get into, everyone. So we are back from Camas, Utah, from Ballerina Farm. If you want to hear all about our experience on the promised land with Hannah and Daniel Neeleman.

[Chandler]

I mean, if you want to hear a play by play of Lauren's pilgrimage.

[Courtney Grow]

Featuring one and only fashion influencer Courtney Grow and her esteemed wonderful husband, truly one of the dearest people in our lives, Wyatt Grow. They both joined. Courtney came with us. We do a full play by play. Everyone's like, we know, we've seen the Instagram posts. Go join be a global elite and you can get that full episode.

[Chandler]

We spare no detail.

[Courtney Grow]

We, we truly, truly spare absolutely zero details. Okay, so, so. But let's get into the matter at hand because we have so much to talk about. The first being what, what, what?

[Chandler]

I'm already verklemped. I mean, I think we should talk about the Taylor news because in my opinion, that is the biggest news.

[Courtney Grow]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chandler]

Because that's. That is news that's been sitting with me heavy on my heart, you know, my chest since last week as everyone saw the video of me, you know, trying to ground myself in the midst of the news. Um, yeah, I've just been dying to, like, actually get into it with you.

[Courtney Grow]

This news. When we got it, I took a video of you. We were at Sundance and we were having a gorgeous lunch. Chandler was basically on the floor. I just look over at her after we get the news. That, and to provide a brief summary, Blake's attorney sent a letter to Taylor's attorneys. Allegedly, according to Brian Friedman in a letter to the court where he's asking to subpoena text messages from Taylor Swift. Blake's attorneys threatened Taylor's attorneys that if she did not make a public statement in support of Blake Lively. This was February, okay? She not do this. That Blake would release 10 years of private text messages. We get this news and we're just trying to enjoy, as the Queen herself, Heather McDonald, would call it, a fucking cute lunch.

[Chandler]

We're just trying to have a cute lunch before heading up to Camas. And we're trying to also just kind of grab our loins for what we're about to encounter, you know, and it, you know, it's like, we plan. God laughs. When it rains, it pours. Because it couldn't have come at a worse time. I was already destabilized. And then when I heard this, I think it just kind of ripped me open in a way.

[Courtney Grow]

You were so unwell at this. So I look over and Chandler is just looking at the sky so that she's sitting in front of a huge, like, floor to ceiling windows and she's looking in. She's like, almost like trying to go blind, looking into the sunlight, just, just like searching for answers. It was the most authentically. She was so authentically, like in pain and not while you really couldn't talk. So of course I'm like, time to get some content. Whip out my camera. And I just, you know, I'm like, it's going to be okay. It's going to be okay. And she's like, I honestly don't know if it is.

[Chandler]

Here is why it ripped me open. I think that, you know, we spend the time on this podcast talking about these celebrities, you know, and, and it's real to us, but. But to some degree, it's not really that real. And I, and I think like, talking about the friendships between Blake and Taylor, it's all just sort of make believe still a little bit like, you know, there's drama between the two of them. We don't know what's going on, you know, or just all of like the, the wild tales that we spin, you know, some of them truthful, some of them, you know, our own, our own theorizing. Okay, Right.

[Courtney Grow]

But everything we always talk about, we believe.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Courtney Grow]

We don't spin wild tales.

[Chandler]

We don't spin wild tales. All I'm saying is that this just made the realness of this case and the chasm between Blake and Taylor very real to me. And I was just like, Taylor is the godmother of one of Blake's children.

[Courtney Grow]

Which, by the way, can I tell you now, looking back, seeing how manipulative and conniving and Machiavellian this woman is.

[Chandler]

It'S eyebrow stirring this.

[Courtney Grow]

I mean, my Botox is not fully in effect.

[Chandler]

Allison, get ready.

[Courtney Grow]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

I.

[Courtney Grow]

Only a needle could be near my face yesterday. You will not be able to see how truly furious I am. But you can right now, everyone, because what I believe, I truly believe now knowing what Blake Lively is capable of allegedly, according to Brian Friedman, I believe that the godmother. Shit. That was fully manipulative. No, I do, I do.

[Chandler]

Well, okay, believe that if you will. I'm gonna, I'm gonna finish. I believe that there was a, that there is a real friendship there. That there was at least at one point there was a, A years long real friendship. There's vacationing together.

[Courtney Grow]

No, there's, there's, there. No.

[Chandler]

Okay, well, whatever. You can believe that. But I do believe at one point there was a real friendship and that this real friendship totally hit the skids.

[Courtney Grow]

You don't do that to a real friend. You never say, I am going to release 10, 10 years of our private discourse and dialogue when, you know, I.

[Chandler]

I understand, I understand. Let me finish, let me finish. I totally understand. I just, I'm talking about from Taylor's side where all the, this emotion is for me is from Taylor to Blake. Like, I believe the friendship from Taylor to Blake has always been genuine. And I believe that maybe hopefully at, at a certain point, at least in the beginning, it was genuine from Blake to Taylor. And to just see how things went up in flames behind the scenes allegedly brings me deep sadness.

[Courtney Grow]

I'm gonna challenge. I'm gonna channel Alan Jackson for a second. Okay. And I'm gonna say, Ms. Bledsoe, would you agree that Blake Lively is capable of deceit? Yes, she is. Thank you. Would you also agree that even if there was sincere friendship, Blake Lively was capable of, of knowing that the moniker godmother, that this title would confer a level of control and a level of closeness that would provide Ms. Lively with undue power over Ms.

[Chandler]

Swift? Yes. Thank you 100%. And I think it was, it was.

[Courtney Grow]

Low key, a little manipulative.

[Chandler]

Potentially. It could have been, it could have been totally manipulated. Well, let me just say.

[Courtney Grow]

Well, no, Taylor is so pure hearted, she didn't see it coming.

[Chandler]

And that's really where we hit the emotion on the head for me, where we get right to the center of it, which is that our girl was duped.

[Courtney Grow]

Yeah. Oh. And honestly, after, after all, after the all Chandler, of the enemies that started out Friends, I have the full.

[Chandler]

I feel like we're gonna get an all too well, 20 minute version that's gonna be based on the 10 year long friendship.

[Courtney Grow]

Well, this is the thing about life.

[Chandler]

I think what you are so riled up. I'm loving it. I'm living for it and I'm loving it. This is the thing about life.

[Courtney Grow]

When you're young. All that matters to you is romance and hot guys and your love stories with them and your obsession with that, like the drive to procreate is. And I think that as you get older, you realize, like one of the lessons of getting older is the depth of familial relationships. Like, I'm so much more interested right now in like the depth of my relationship with my mother.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Courtney Grow]

Than I was at 19. Yeah. And how much more that means to me. Yeah. And so I just think as Taylor evolves, I think that, yes, to your point, like she would not, I think 34 year old Taylor write a 10 minute song about the refrigerator light if that had happened to her. But we will get maybe a 100 minute song about the betrayal of Blake Lively.

[Chandler]

Yes. I would like to propose an alternate theory.

[Courtney Grow]

Well, before we get there.

[Chandler]

Okay. Before we get there, one more thing about life.

[Courtney Grow]

I have a poem. No, I don't.

[Chandler]

I. I have a poem prepared.

[Courtney Grow]

I will recite from memory. This is something that I just want to say because at first when this came out, I think a lot of people were like, especially when the judge said that it was not relevant. A lot of people said the judge said it's irrelevant. Like this is just his team trying to get this, get a salacious headline. The thing you have to realize is Brian Friedman is an officer of the court. Yes. And this is under a penalty of perjury that he submitted this information. He could be disbarred if he was being duplicitous or deceitful. A la Ms. Lively.

[Chandler]

Even, even more intimidating than Lady Justice. Tree pain.

[Courtney Grow]

Oh. Oh my gosh. A million, A million times more intimidating. Thank you. So I just want to say that he wouldn't have submitted this if it wasn't true. And also, Travis Kelce would not have unfollowed Ryan Reynolds. And if this, if there wasn't, I think that him unfollowing Ryan Reynolds. And also we have not seen Taylor Swift near Blake Lively. Guess what? The math is mathing.

[Chandler]

The math is mathing. And when you start to, you know, show your work for the math, really uncover things. Allegedly this happened in February. We have not seen Blake and Taylor together since I believe October of last year. And I think if you are at the point, you know, in February where it is lawyers talking to other lawyers, the friendship is absolutely on ice. If not on, you know, on fire. Right. And I think that this just means that, you know, potentially when Blake filed her lawsuit in December, maybe things really started to go like haywire or you know, things like, I just think you have to then sort of look back time wise at when did the friendship really start to crumble and why did it crumble? And looking at what was happening, Taylor really wasn't there with Blake at the Super Bowl. Like, nothing. They have not stood in solidarity since before she filed her lawsuit.

[Courtney Grow]

Well, I think that a friendship has to be pretty effing fractured to get to the point where my attorney is reaching out to your attorney. I mean, just imagine how broken you have to be for that correspondence, for that to be the channel. So. And also, I go back to this a million times over. If Taylor believed that Blake had been genuinely sexually harassed, she would be by her side. Cause Taylor is pure of heart.

[Chandler]

And Taylor at the very least would have had one public appearance with her. Like she would have done something.

[Courtney Grow]

Exactly.

[Chandler]

She would have gotten nothing.

[Courtney Grow]

And it's also such a Debbie desperado move to say, okay, release a public statement or I'm going to release 10 years of correspondence.

[Chandler]

But can everyone imagine what would happen if we had 10 years worth of Taylor Swift's text messages? I mean, I think the world would. The power grid would get shut down. Even like the X's the chatter. No. I mean, I would riot in the streets.

[Courtney Grow]

On some level.

[Chandler]

You're looking up the sky again.

[Courtney Grow]

If. Some level. If Kim Jong Un and Donald Trump started really sparring on Twitter. Okay.

[Chandler]

Another amazing friendship.

[Courtney Grow]

And they started talking about those buttons they can push.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Courtney Grow]

I would have less fear in my heart. Okay. Than the fear I would have if these text messages were released. And I. This is my job. My job is to discuss these people. I don't want those text messages.

[Chandler]

No, I don't want them either. I think it is. It's so below the belt. That expression doesn't even do it justice. I mean, those messages are sacred.

[Courtney Grow]

Is Taylor Swift. Team Justin.

[Chandler]

She has to be.

[Courtney Grow]

She has to be. She has to be. Okay, we need to move on or we will discuss this the entire hour. Unless there's anything else you would like to say.

[Chandler]

Now, do you guys understand why I needed to feel the sun on my face? Why I needed to touch grass?

[Courtney Grow]

It's just.

[Chandler]

It was calling into question everything.

[Courtney Grow]

It would be like if we found out. I mean, I think even. It's actually even worse. But it would be like if there was a cheating scandal with Travis Kelce right now.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Courtney Grow]

Because it would be like, our girl.

[Chandler]

Has been through Enough, Enough, enough, enough.

[Courtney Grow]

It's enough.

[Chandler]

It's enough.

[Courtney Grow]

Okay, Chan. What is generally beside me at any.

[Chandler]

Given moment, two things. Lauren. Lotion. Lotion and a fully drank can of clean simple eats Clear protein.

[Courtney Grow]

It's always empty, too. Because I chug it.

[Chandler]

It's always empty. And they're strewn about your apartment at all hours. Any given moment.

[Courtney Grow]

It is delicious. You grab it from the fridge, you drink it. It tastes good. Chandler. I drink it for the flavor. I drink it because I enjoy it. And the added benefit of the protein. It's chef's kiss. I absolutely love clear protein because it's so convenient and it's such an easy way of getting in protein. I promise you, from the day clear protein came into my life, I easily added an extra 40 grams of protein to my daily intake every day on average. That is incredible. Everyone go to cleansimplies.com use code popapologist for 10 off. The clear protein. It is a game changer.

[Chandler]

Go to cleansimpleaids.com use our code popapologists for 10 off. Do you want to know what got me through wedding season in one piece?

[Courtney Grow]

The companionship and constant counsel of your dear sister and co host.

[Chandler]

No, I'm really talking about early bird gummies. I cannot even tell you how many times things got too stressful. Life got a little crazy. There were so many nights where we started to get into the nitty gritty of wedding stuff, and it just felt so overwhelming. We had so much to figure out. And when it was time to, you know, log out Azola and go to bed, I couldn't shut my brain off. But with Early Bird, I was literally able to take a half a gummy. I was able to get the sleep that I so desperately needed. My beauty rest. I mean, the reason why I look so hot on my wedding day, thanks to early bird.

[Courtney Grow]

Go to early birdcbd.com use code popapologist for 20% off. One bottle will last you so long. And I can tell you it is the perfect antidote to middle of the night anxiety. Half a gummy and you're enjoying that show a little more. You're melting into your pillow a little bit more. You're enjoying a meal a little bit more. It's a panacea. Earlybirdcbd.com use code popapologist for 20% off.

[Chandler]

But we did get a little Taylor tidbit because, oh, my gosh, everyone on the Handmaid's Tale episode, we heard. Look what you made me do Taylor's version. So things are happening. That song, not my favorite. And, you know, yeah, that's all I'm gonna say about that. But things are happening. You know, the wheels are spinning. And I believe we're gonna have Taylor's version of reputation pretty soon here.

[Courtney Grow]

I mean, I believe the theory is that this will be released, this information at the AMAs. It'll be announced, which is when I don't. Can you look up? You look it up. Like, while I'll pine further, apparently on her website right now, if you go to the top, it says amas and it's like apparel merchandise. And six days that there's a bunch of Easter eggs right now, that at the AMAs. That is when Taylor is going to announce something. That was what we were talking about last night while we were discussing outfits from 2007 with Courtney, Kyle and Kelsey and Wyatt listening patiently. The new information this morning is that it is rep tv.

[Chandler]

And would I rather not a new album?

[Courtney Grow]

Would I rather be TS12? Of course. But I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth. I was just at Ballerina Farm, everyone.

[Chandler]

What are the chances we have bonus tracks.

[Courtney Grow]

Chandler, Chandler, Chandler, Chandler, Chandler. I'm so sorry. We are not all clowning over and over and over again. She listened to 2009, Taylor's voice versus 2025, and hear the diff. If we can hear any difference. This is all about the bonus tracks.

[Chandler]

It's all about bonus tracks. Right. I just wanted to make sure that I can look forward to those. So anyway, everyone, lots to look forward to in terms of Taylor's version reputation. Lots to not look forward to in terms of the Justin and Blake lawsuit.

[Courtney Grow]

Yeah. Can I just say, it just feels good to be back.

[Chandler]

Like, we are so back. We are so back, baby.

[Courtney Grow]

We have been missing Taylor. She has been reft from us. And we are so.

[Chandler]

We are so back.

[Courtney Grow]

Okay, let's discuss another group of women. The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. The season two has dropped on Hulu. Chandler, you have re this show. You have wanted to talk to me about it so much. We've been together a lot recently. I only watched the first two episodes in the past 10 hours, but you had been. You have been foaming at the mouth.

[Chandler]

I've been foaming at the mouth. Lauren and I flew home, and on the flight home, Lauren was looking up at ballymaloo. Is that. Am I even saying that right? I don't even know what these words are. Lauren was looking at the culinary school in Ireland and if she could go. And I was watching Secret Lives of Mormon Wives Season 2.

[Courtney Grow]

Season 2. Yes, you were. And you were freaking out about how good it was.

[Chandler]

It's just, I mean, the show, the show scratches an itch for me that no other show can scratch.

[Courtney Grow]

Okay, gross. Really quick. Before we get into it, I just want to say PSA for myself. If you know of a really amazing cooking school that's not Ballymelo, literally nobody wants to talk.

[Chandler]

Everyone wants to talk about secret lives of marmot.

[Courtney Grow]

No, I know. I just want to say psa. If you know of a really great cooking school. I don't want to learn French cooking. I want to learn just like Alice Waters style cooking. I want to go for four to 12 weeks. If you know of one, please DM me. And especially, what are we going to.

[Chandler]

Do about the podcast? When you're at cooking school, where do.

[Courtney Grow]

You think you'll be?

[Chandler]

I'm not. I, I said to you and Courtney, I said, this is one of your purchases that I think I am okay to sit out on.

[Courtney Grow]

I think you're gonna have less freedom than you think.

[Chandler]

I mean, I moved to pop apologist full time anyway. Yeah. Everyone, please send Lauren your cooking school recommendation. Send it to a personal account. We don't need to clutter our DMs with that.

[Courtney Grow]

Please send it to my personal oren Having fun. And give me a follow.

[Chandler]

Okay, so I, I, I've actually watched the first four episodes, but I knew that you had a lot on your plate, so I only wanted you to watch the first two. So we're only going to discuss the first two because there's a lot to get into past the first two episodes. But I think there's, you know, there's plenty of nuggets to chat about now.

[Courtney Grow]

So much to say.

[Chandler]

So I. Where do we even begin? Let's begin with episode one.

[Courtney Grow]

Yes.

[Chandler]

Okay. And what I love is that the women kind of begin the, they begin the episode by talking about, you know, the effect of Mom Talk. And I think, to quote one of Em, it's Mom Talk has been able to push the needle when it comes to the patriarchy. Okay. And I would just like to get Elizabeth Warren on this podcast, and I'd like her to weigh in. Has the needle been pushed?

[Courtney Grow]

Is Gloria Steinem still with us?

[Chandler]

Yeah, I think so.

[Courtney Grow]

Because I would like her to also give some sort of quote on how this work has been furthered. I mean, Betty Friedan walked so the Mormon wives could run, run, run. Wow. I mean, okay, and here are the other quotes which are truly phenomenal because, yes, they led off with a little bit of a manifesto. So Mom Talk intends To do things like move the needle when it comes to the patriarchy and, quote, unquote, push to push the church to modernize and, quote, live our lives making videos smashing men's hearts. This is from our Vulture recap, where I pulled that. And the writer said the policy agenda is clearer than that of 90% of American politicians. I mean, get these bitches in office in 2028. They know what they want to achieve.

[Chandler]

They know exactly what they want to achieve. They are that. That writer is exactly right. And I just love the way, like, the Mom Talk agenda. The Mom Talk ethos is prevalent throughout all of the chatter. It's. Why does she want to get let back into Mom Talk? Yeah, that's not what Mom Talk is about. They did this last season, but I'm just so happy that it's continuing, I guess with this whole show. I feel like the mom talk of it, which to me is really just girls moms filming dancing videos, has kind of been lost. It's not really about that anymore in their dance troupe. It's more about their lives.

[Courtney Grow]

That's true.

[Chandler]

And so I think that the fact that they are still. That is still, you know, that's what the moniker that they are calling themselves and, you know, their whole brand and the manifesto that they go back to is just really funny because they bring it up a lot.

[Courtney Grow]

They bring it up a lot. And I think when it comes to Mom Talk, I personally just want to say, as a health warning to any viewers.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Courtney Grow]

Do not play a drinking game when it comes to Mom Talk because you will. You will have fatal alcohol poisoning.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Courtney Grow]

There's just. It's. It's every fourth word.

[Chandler]

It. It's like her timing of wanting to come back to Mom Talk is suspicious. And the money, you know, like, Zach doesn't approve of Mom Talk.

[Courtney Grow]

I honestly am here for it because I think it is a very succinct way of describing their group, their, you know, participation on the show. There. It's a little bit. Whenever they say they break the fourth.

[Chandler]

Wall a little bit totally.

[Courtney Grow]

Because they're talking about being on the show. It would be like if the Housewives talked about Housewives back into Housewives.

[Chandler]

Right.

[Courtney Grow]

So I like that.

[Chandler]

That's true.

[Courtney Grow]

So I'm fine with that. Just for the purpose of efficiency and because it just sounds so absurd.

[Chandler]

It's so absurd sounding. And it. It just makes it sound like so much more important. And it is important. And moving the needle of patriarchy. It is important.

[Courtney Grow]

I think that's one of the Most confounding and hilarious parts about social media careers is because a lot of times they can seem absurd and silly. Like, you know, there. I heard there was one there. There was once. There's a kid on YouTube and his entire channel is just opening presents, and he makes, like, millions of dollars a month.

[Chandler]

Okay, we are on the wrong train.

[Courtney Grow]

So when it comes to Mom Talk, though, what's so funny about that is they're constantly referring to mom Talk, and then they're like. And yeah, in a single brand deal, I make more than my husband makes in his annual salary. So it's like, maybe we should all just put up and shut up and show some goddamn respect to Mom Talk.

[Chandler]

Put some goddamn respect on Mom Talk's name. Another thing to their credit. Yeah, everyone is looking very hot. Everyone was already super beautiful to start with. But the brand deals are brand dealing because the glow ups are looking good.

[Courtney Grow]

No, they all. They all look gorgeous.

[Chandler]

Gorgeous.

[Courtney Grow]

And honestly, I have a lot to say about Taylor's mother. A lot. But I was here for her glow up, too. You know what? When she sauntered in with a new face, I was like, good for you, Bish.

[Chandler]

Honestly, good for her. And that's basically where my good feelings begin and end.

[Courtney Grow]

Like, she has to show up to Relief Society and shake her shed hair or shed her head in shame every Sunday. Let this woman get a facelift.

[Chandler]

It's like, do we even. Do you want to just start there? Let's start with Taylor, because Taylor is really. You know, Taylor is the premier or like, she's the prima ballerina.

[Courtney Grow]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

Would we say of Mom Talk.

[Courtney Grow]

She's the center Snowflake. Yes.

[Chandler]

So, everyone, Taylor is back for season two. She has given birth to ever Aw. With Dakota, her baby daddy slash ex boyfriend. And Taylor continues to be my favorite part of this show because if I may just say, I think that she is the most real and the least. Like, I think she's the most real and vulnerable on the show out of any of the women. And she continues to be throughout episode one and two.

[Courtney Grow]

Well, what she's showing is so real. It's so authentic, and it's so devastating. And I think, like, going to. When her mom saunters in with the, you know, face V2, and they're chatting on the couch, and, you know, she's describing the betrayal of Dakota and, like, the depth of her pain.

[Chandler]

Should I give people some backstory on that?

[Courtney Grow]

Really?

[Chandler]

Please. Really quick, everyone. So I. I said Dakota, her ex boyfriend, because in season one, they actually were together. You know, what we see in the first few episodes is, you know, Taylor and Dakota basically separated because she found out that he was lying to her at the beginning of their relationship about whether or not he was seeing other people and the degree. And the degree to which he was seeing another person. In fact, in the very first episode, we have Jenna, a girl who, you know, we saw a phone call with at the end of season one, now come onto the show, and her and Taylor chat in Macy's living room about, you know, the. The lengths to which her and Dakota went to. Which is.

[Courtney Grow]

And what was really going on.

[Chandler]

It was mortifying to watch it, honestly. Like, at one point she says, well, I think we just did hand stuff.

[Courtney Grow]

No, it's so stunted and infantilizing and hilarious.

[Chandler]

Hilarious.

[Courtney Grow]

So my favorite part is when Taylor looks like Jenna, you know, she's being emotionally destroyed right now. And she says, well, what. What did you guys do together? And Jenna's like, well, we, you know, we did go to the dinosaur museum and we did go to the trampoline park. And it's like such a insane, insane view. View, like microphone, camera lens, zooming in on the psychotic and embarrassingly juvenile dating culture of Provo, Utah, which we were mired in with when we went to school at byu. And so again, it is, like, so funny to see this culture. Yeah. To see a light shown on it because it's just so embarrassing and absurd. It's like, these people are adults.

[Chandler]

She's like, we did go to the escape room and we did do hand stuff after.

[Courtney Grow]

And these are people in their, like, mid-20s.

[Chandler]

Yes. These are fully grown adults.

[Courtney Grow]

That is what you would hear a 13 year old say for, you know. You know, like, it's.

[Chandler]

Yeah. And I think that's where the mortification comes in because I experience 13. Yeah. 16. Teenagers.

[Courtney Grow]

Teenagers.

[Chandler]

That is like. Yeah, we. We experienced that, you know, and I. Yeah, so we were so mired in it. And so anyway, and.

[Courtney Grow]

But.

[Chandler]

But so it's kind of. It's funny on a level. It's mortifying on a level. And then it's also very real because you're. You're seeing Taylor kind of think about the fact that Dakota would just come over at night and like, hook up with her, but she didn't. And she's like, he was asking her out on dates. And I was just like, she said, like, I was the night girl and that, and she's sobbing, crying. And I think there's like, there's the absurdity of, like the Dating behavior. And then there's the extreme vulnerability and relatability of what Dakota or of what Taylor is experiencing with feeling cheap, feeling like you. You were not important to this person.

[Courtney Grow]

Well, and he was lying.

[Chandler]

He was lying.

[Courtney Grow]

He was being duplicitous. He was cheating on you. He was. He was treating you like you were nothing. And that can. It's just. I think, again, it's like one of the most painful things a woman can go through is to learn that you had all these intimate encounters that you thought were one way, and then all of a sudden, it's like, no, this person is. Is nothing like what I thought they were.

[Chandler]

And they were lying. They were. Not only were they holding back, but then they were telling me, oh, that she was pursuing me. Like, it was just a full lie. And.

[Courtney Grow]

And women live in fear of this, I think, every day because we see it so much. And obviously, some women do this to men, but for them, you know, I think this story is more common.

[Chandler]

Yes.

[Courtney Grow]

In this tale with the man, you know, cheating on the woman.

[Chandler]

Anyway, it's just. It's really, really sad because I think. I think Taylor is just really raw on camera, and my heart just, like, continues to break for her. And. And this continues into the next episode where we have this family barbecue, and there are other parts of the show that we're going to get into, but I just think. I think this was the grossest scene, one of the. The grossest scenes I've ever seen on TV in terms of family mistreating, you know, family, like, being mistreated by your family. And, like, the fact that they were comfortable speaking like that on camera, the fact that they were comfortable speaking like that at all.

[Courtney Grow]

I just think it's actually so important because what mom talk is not doing is pushing, you know, patriarchy forward or, you know, or making. Or tearing patriarchy.

[Chandler]

Moving the needle.

[Courtney Grow]

Moving the needle of patriarchy. I'm not sure what that means or what I think it is doing that's important is shedding a light on how deeply fucked up these patriarchal beliefs make this entire family.

[Chandler]

Right?

[Courtney Grow]

Because, first of all. So they're at lunch, they're at a.

[Chandler]

Barbecue at Taylor's house, and her parents are.

[Courtney Grow]

She's at her family home with her baby daddy, who has betrayed her, cheated on her. And this was her biggest fear. She's in deep pain. Her father at the table has the gall. The nerve to say to her in an accusatory way after she has described how he's betrayed her, well, what does that say about you.

[Chandler]

So she says, she. This is when she's saying, you know, he was taking her out on dates and he was coming over and having sex with me at night. I was the night girl. And you know, and he. He says, you know, well, what does that make you?

[Courtney Grow]

What does that make you? And it's.

[Chandler]

He's like kind of yells it at her. Yeah, it's. It's disgusting.

[Courtney Grow]

It's a full. Like you deserved it.

[Chandler]

Yes. Like you were asking for it.

[Courtney Grow]

You were asking for it. You cheapened yourself. How could you know? Men can't resist. You know, you look and you were wearing.

[Chandler]

Also. They are so chummy with Dakota. It is very clear to me that they really like Dakota. I think Dakota is one of the most manipulative people I've ever seen on tv. He's got almost like a jacks level to him.

[Courtney Grow]

No, he's disgusting. He's a poor. And also, it's just so absurd. Like the brother saying, give him an inch so he can run a mile or walk a mile.

[Chandler]

Give him an inch so we can walk a mile. Shut up.

[Courtney Grow]

This guy is not getting better.

[Chandler]

And this guy is not good for her. He is. Their trust has been broken. The fact that everyone is at the table except for her. One sister is saying, you know, you just need to, like, make this work. You just need to figure it out with this guy. And no one is saying trust has been broken. Clearly you guys are not right for each other. You need to take, you know, some time and. And no one is taking her side. Nobody and everyone is at treating her like this is the best she deserves.

[Courtney Grow]

No, they. Because they all labor under this false delusion that it would be better for the kid, this child, ever to. Okay. So many things to say to have parents together. The parents that conceived him together, even though they have a fundamentally toxic trust, bro. No trust relationship that apparently would be better than saying, this is never going to work.

[Chandler]

You deserve to be with someone you can trust.

[Courtney Grow]

You both need to experience a lot of personal growth before you find the person you can have a healthy relationship with. It's actually much better for this child to have no memory of you ever being together. Because then guess what? He's not even going to know.

[Chandler]

What.

[Courtney Grow]

What he's not going to have lost.

[Chandler]

Right? Right.

[Courtney Grow]

Learn to co parent, grow and move on.

[Chandler]

It shows how stunted their view is of family and human relationships. Like what the best they can be and you shouldn't be in a relationship like that.

[Courtney Grow]

And it exposes this really absurd idea that divorce or parents broken up is the worst thing that could ever happen. It's not.

[Chandler]

It's not.

[Courtney Grow]

It's absolutely not.

[Chandler]

What's worse is seeing a really bad relationship play out. And then you learn that that's. That's what normal relationships look like.1 million percent.

[Courtney Grow]

This episode of Pop Apologists is brought.

[Wyatt Grow]

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[Chandler]

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[Courtney Grow]

I'm gonna go back to the day before when the mom has the gall. She's sitting on a couch with her broken daughter and she, she says to her, by the way, this child is in her arms as she says this. I really wish you would have thought about all of this before you got pregnant. This child is right there. So you are going to discuss on camera the idea that you think that this baby is a mistake. You regret his birth on some level. Grow up. The parents need to grow up and I think that, you know, and they're.

[Chandler]

Just a little too comfortable on camera.

[Courtney Grow]

We can be very kumbaya when it comes to, like, religious, you know, all religions. But you see the way that they're. I'll just say it. I think their religion has stunted them.

[Chandler]

Yeah. 100%.

[Courtney Grow]

And they truly need to. They're the ones that need to do some growth.

[Chandler]

Absolutely. And I think the fact that they can't put their, like, their daughters, like her feeling personally safe and love. Safe and loved above, just like, you know, a nuclear family. And just like her being together with her baby daddy is. Is so. It's just really sickening. I had, like, a pit in my stomach watching that whole, like, scene. And it's not until her other sister is like, you guys, like, they're screaming, yelling at each other, and she's like, you guys need to be separate. This is like, you know, this is not working, and it's not good for the baby. Like, her sister is the only one with, like, any type of sense.

[Courtney Grow]

No. And this. The sister who comes over is like, maybe we'll take the baby away from this situation.

[Chandler]

Yes. And another thing, like, sweet Taylor talks about how. So the guy that we see on the show who's with her mom, that's not her biological dad. Her biological dad, she never did not have a relationship with him. And the only time she met him, he just, like, came up to her and was like, hey, what's up, kid? And never spoke to her ever again. As really traumatic for her.

[Courtney Grow]

Right.

[Chandler]

Clearly there are some deep issues. And the fact that her mom doesn't have more sensitivity, more awareness, like, for that. And it's. I just can't believe that's the way her family treats her.

[Courtney Grow]

I think that's the way a lot of families treat their children. Which is also going to explain the relationship of Jen and Zach. Yeah.

[Chandler]

Let's get into it.

[Courtney Grow]

And as they continue to try to fight for their marriage and make it.

[Chandler]

Work, he really wants to, you know, love Jen.

[Courtney Grow]

He loves her so much, he'll do ketamine therapy with her. I.

[Chandler]

First of all, I'm glad he got a haircut.

[Courtney Grow]

Yeah. The haircut is really helping at least us make at least this show be more visually watchable.

[Chandler]

Agreed. In this man, he, to me, represents the most stunted man you have ever met in Utah.

[Courtney Grow]

Her having to, like, explain to him that he needs to consider her feelings before his own is truly.

[Chandler]

It's so.

[Courtney Grow]

It's such a. It's like saying to someone, you shouldn't beat me. Like, you should, you know, you shouldn't abuse me. I need you to learn that lesson.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Courtney Grow]

Again, it's it's. What we see is these young women who really don't know their value and worth. And so they will try to fix a toxic relationship. They will try to be with a broken man, a stunted man, instead of learning their own value. And also, I just want one of the adults to say, you are all children. You can all just have second chapters with someone else.

[Chandler]

Totally. Right.

[Courtney Grow]

These can all be starter marriages. By the end of your life, you'll have forgotten about these guys.

[Chandler]

Yes. Like, you could be with someone who doesn't need to, like, come to grips with who you are or. And who. How. Who you're evolving into, you know, as you grow up. You know, I think what's so rich about this whole situation is that, you know, he's in medical school. He hasn't proven himself to be, you know, be able to bring home the bacon.

[Courtney Grow]

He's not in medical school. He dropped out.

[Chandler]

Oh, yeah, well, he dropped out. Exactly. He dropped out. Jen is the one bringing home the bacon. Mom Talk is her career. Okay. And he is struggling to approve of it. He doesn't approve of mom talk. Well, I'm sorry. How are you going to pay the bills?

[Courtney Grow]

Right, Right.

[Chandler]

And I, you know, he really just like, he. And he thinks that all of the people on Mom Talk are beneath him, that he is too good for them.

[Courtney Grow]

I think it's. He's clearly one of these provo guys.

[Chandler]

Yes.

[Courtney Grow]

From some. From a family who's did relatively well. And so he's high on that supply.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Courtney Grow]

And also, I'm sure that he's had many talkings, too, from his parents about how trashy and tacky her participation is. And he's dealing with a lot of, you know, his. His baggage from that. What I loved was when Jesse and Demi, they talk with Zach and they tell him what Jen has said about him, because it forces Jen to confront. And to have him confront the reality of how horrible he's been. She is still, like, protecting him from her own feelings. And I felt like what they did was really not something she enjoyed, obviously, like, she didn't want them to cause more problems, but she clearly had not actually made Zach fully reckon with. With his actions.

[Chandler]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Courtney Grow]

And what she really thinks about him.

[Chandler]

I just keep going back to, like, when he's like, you know, and I said those things in. In Vegas, and I'm going to have to live with that for the rest of my life. It's like, don't try to be the victim here. But no, I. I think you're exactly right. And, you know, I think. I think Demi and Jesse have. Are a lot more emotionally equipped for things on the show, and I think we see that come across.

[Courtney Grow]

I will say Demi's pretty bold. Jesse seems extremely mature to me.

[Chandler]

Yeah, I mean, I guess I just think that they. Yeah, they're both. I just. Yeah, I think. I think they are just like. Yeah, they're both more mature to me than some of the other girls on the show. That's what I've seen. They've both been married before. I don't know. They might be slightly older. I'm not actually entirely sure. But some of these women on the show feel very young to me, and some of them don't feel quite as young in terms of just like, mental. I don't know.

[Courtney Grow]

Wisdom.

[Chandler]

Wisdom, yeah.

[Courtney Grow]

Total perspective.

[Chandler]

I mean, and I think even when Jesse says, you know, she says at one point, like, there's not a lot of success stories from when you. Things are that bad that it ever gets to be better.

[Courtney Grow]

Right. You know, and that's the friendship need in your life.

[Chandler]

And that's true. I believe that's true. One more thing I want to point out about Jen and Zach, and then we can move on. There's a moment where he. After ketamine therapy where he says, I would just give anything to, like, go back to that day in Hawaii running through the coffee fields. And I think that was a moment where it really shows that he doesn't actually like who Jen is now. He just wants to have whoever he married, you know, at 19 or whatever. I don't actually know when they got married. It's all like, his ketamine therapy experience was not about, I love you. I love our life together. Let's grow old together and figure it out. It was like, oh, I just wish I could have that girl back.

[Courtney Grow]

Right. It's like, could we go back to when you just let me do whatever I wanted? When you worshiped the ground I walked on. When you were a total. I just. When I was on ketamine, I remembered you when you were a doormat, and it was.

[Chandler]

Yes, it was gorgeous. And I would give anything to go back to that day. Okay, sorry. There actually is one more thing. He also talks about how he does not go to church anymore, but the reason that he doesn't go to church, it's just that people aren't very nice to him. It's not like there. There's been no kind of like, deeper shift with him, beliefs wise. It's. I don't Know, I just.

[Courtney Grow]

These people aren't that deep.

[Chandler]

Right, right. So it's not about, like, there's no conviction there.

[Courtney Grow]

No, it's not. It's not like, well, I'm going to atone for my sins. I'm going to deal with this public.

[Chandler]

School, stand up for my wife. Yeah.

[Courtney Grow]

And I'm. But I. But my religion and the Book of Mormon means so much to me in taking the sacrament every Sunday that I'm actually just gonna deal with it. It's like. It's just a lot of these people, they. They just go with the flow.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Courtney Grow]

They get along to go along. Yeah, they go along to get along.

[Chandler]

Something like that, Whatever.

[Courtney Grow]

And. Exactly. Their religion actually doesn't run that deep inside of them. And so the second it stops working for them or being comfortable. Yeah, the second it stops being comfortable for them, all of a sudden, they don't go. But they're the first people to criticize people who have been. Who are gay and leave.

[Chandler]

Right.

[Courtney Grow]

That's like, well, if only they could have, you know, persevered. Oh, God. Yeah.

[Chandler]

It's just the show brings up a lot for us. And anyway, I'm excited for you to keep watching.

[Courtney Grow]

Anyone who doesn't know, we grew up Mormon and we went to byu.

[Chandler]

Yeah. So we're very, very familiar with this entire culture. Indeed. I'm so excited for you to keep watching.

[Courtney Grow]

Really? Does it get.

[Chandler]

Oh, it gets even better. Gets even better, baby. And. Yeah, like, just. Just buckle in. So we'll keep talking about it, obviously.

[Courtney Grow]

One thing I will say, not to malign an entire community, but here we go. Any young women listening to our podcast who potentially live in Provo, Utah, if you are dating in Provo, Utah, I would highly encourage you to leave, because this is the kind of toxic culture and the kind of men that are there.

[Chandler]

Not every single one, but a lot of them. But all. Basically every single one that I dated.

[Courtney Grow]

And these beliefs that they have are so deeply ingrained and conditioned within them.

[Chandler]

Like, get out, get out. I mean, you can have a whole.

[Courtney Grow]

New chapter as well. When I left Provo, 24, 25. I mean, four, seven years, it's not like I never found a man or found any, you know, and it's just you. There's. These women are so stunted.

[Chandler]

So stunted.

[Courtney Grow]

And I kind of see my. By herself a tiny bit in them.

[Chandler]

I absolutely see myself in it. I see the way that I thought that I was literally, you know, used goods at 22 because I wasn't married.

[Courtney Grow]

Right.

[Chandler]

And I Think too. You know, you need to meet men if you're, if you're looking for a man, you need to meet men or people, you know, the person you want to spend your life with who have also lived elsewhere, who have just experienced like life outside of Mormonism and just like, who have just seen the world from like a new lens and their mission does not count.

[Courtney Grow]

Thank you. Amen. Amen. And also not that the only thing that matters is finding a man. Also just your mental piece of not being in this toxic culture.

[Chandler]

Yeah, absolutely. But I think when you're at that age, that is the thing you're focused on for sure.

[Courtney Grow]

Yeah, 100%. So anyway, okay.

[Chandler]

Lately I've been trying to simplify my grocery routine, save a little money, eat a little better, and avoid the chaos of the store. That's when I tried Thrive Market and it just made everything so much easier. Thrive Market is basically your favorite health food store, but it's online, it's way more convenient, and it's way more affordable. I'm getting brands I already love, like Simple Mills, Siete Primal Kitchen, but up to 30 off regular prices. And I'm not wandering crowded New York City aisles trying to make last minute decisions. I use Thrive Market because it's easy and I can find all the things my family needs in one place. It's made shopping feel a lot more streamlined and honestly, kind of satisfying. One of my favorite things to order are the chocolate peanut butter cups. They're delicious, they ship fast, and they always cost less than what I see in the store. Skip the junk without overspending. Head over to thrivemarket.com pop to get 30 off your first order and a free 60 gift. That's thrivemarket.com pop thrivemarket.com pop the minute the weather warmed up, I realized I was ready for a summer wardrobe that actually matched how I wanted to feel light, confident and put together. So I gave my closet a refresh with Quince, and it was such a win. I picked up their 100 European linen shorts and a gorgeous linen dress, both under $50, and brought them on my honeymoon. The quality is incredible. Everything felt so elevated and easy to wear. I could throw it on and instantly feel stylish without even trying to. Quince nails that balance of timeless and comfortable and the price point blew me away. I've bought similar pieces for way more, and these feel even better. They partner directly with top artisans and ethical factories. No middlemen, no markup. From breezy dresses to Italian leather sandals and luxe swimwear, Quince has All the essentials for an effortless summer without the luxury price tag. Treat your closet to a summer glow up with quince. Go to quince.comapologist for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N C E.comapologist let's talk about the best part of the day. When you're finally home, the emails stop and it's just you time. That's when Cozy Earth comes in. And trust me, your five to nine is about to level up. I've been using their sheets and loungewear and I'm not being dramatic when I tell you that they are life changing. They're insanely soft, temperature regulating and make your bed feel like the comfiest, coolest place on earth. And their pajamas. I've never felt fabric like this. It's buttery, breathable and way too cute for just sleeping. It's given me an actual nightly routine. Light a candle, throw on my cozy Earth PJs and instantly I feel like I've got my life together. Like I'm in a rom com. There's a 100 night sleep trial and a 10 year warranty on all bedding, so you know your investment is protected. If you've been craving a cozy reset, this is your sign. Cozy Earth is the upgrade your evenings deserve. Luxury shouldn't be out of reach. Use code POP for 40 off best selling sheets, pajamas and more at cozyearth.com Trust me, you won't regret it. Sanctuary awaits at Cozy Earth.

[Courtney Grow]

So I want to talk to you about Karen Reed, please, some updates on Karen Reed.

[Chandler]

Do you know that mom and I like send each other updates all the time. Mom's like, Mom's like, I hate the prosecution today. Or mom will say, I really hate Judge Bev.

[Courtney Grow]

Mom is really not going to enjoy this segment because I am not doing a hermeneutical study. Okay. Just piece by piece, layer and layer of text.

[Chandler]

I love that word. I don't know what that word even means.

[Courtney Grow]

Hermeneutics is like basically like the interpretation of language.

[Chandler]

So it's like, that's amazing. It's like you're so smart. You are like, when did you learn that word?

[Courtney Grow]

In my hermeneutics course.

[Chandler]

Oh really? Okay, so you do. That makes it a little. It's like you didn't just pick it up in one of your books.

[Courtney Grow]

No.

[Chandler]

Oh, lovely. Okay, take us through your top line.

[Courtney Grow]

Yes, this is going to be, as they say in the business world, a.

[Chandler]

Give us another word.

[Courtney Grow]

Well, no. What do they say in the business?

[Chandler]

It's just like those 10,000°.

[Courtney Grow]

Yeah, we're gonna. We're gonna do sky high, not. Or keep it top level. Did you say top level?

[Chandler]

Yeah, top level. It. Whatever.

[Courtney Grow]

Okay, we're just going to go over this over a few of the new key developments.

[Chandler]

So earlier you were channeling Alan Jackson.

[Courtney Grow]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

Can you channel him a little bit more? You're wearing a blazer, so you're kind of. It's. It's kind of perfect.

[Courtney Grow]

I am wearing a blazer. I have not worked out my biceps very much recently, so I'm not sure. I'm not on T. So I'm not sure if I. If I can honestly channel Alan a little more. But what I can do is walk you through some updates in the case.

[Chandler]

Okay, thank you.

[Courtney Grow]

Okay. So there have been two key witnesses. The first is the digital forensics expert, Shannon Burgess, which is a man.

[Chandler]

Okay.

[Courtney Grow]

Shannon Burgess. His testimony. And that has become a focal point due to both his technical findings and challenges to his credibility. So Burgess, representing Aperture llc, analyzed data from Karen Reed's Lexus SUV, identifying two, quote, significant triggering events, a three point turn and a backing maneuver. These events are central to the prosecution's timeline, suggesting Reed struck John o' Keefe with her vehicle. Burgess also noted a, quote, clock variance between the SUV's internal clock and other devices, which he used to align vehicle data with o' Keeffe's phone activity.

[Chandler]

Okay.

[Courtney Grow]

Defense attorney Robert Alessi scrutinized Bridges his qualifications, revealing discrepancies in his Resume and his LinkedIn profile. Burgess admitted he did not possess a bachelor's degree despite claims to the contrary, and acknowledged that his LinkedIn page contained inaccuracies. Alessi further challenged Bridges's objectivity by highlighting a footnote in his report that referred to the case as a homicide, suggesting a presumption of guilt.

[Chandler]

Right.

[Courtney Grow]

Technical errors in Bridgesto's analysis were also pointed out, including confusion between the bytes. Between bytes and bits.

[Chandler]

Bytes and bits.

[Courtney Grow]

Yeah. Basically saying, like, you don't really actually.

[Chandler]

Oh, like they're like literally proofreading, like.

[Courtney Grow]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

You spell bytes, right?

[Courtney Grow]

You're miss. No, he. I think bytes are. Bytes are different than bits. And they're saying. You use this term. We should have used this term.

[Chandler]

Oh, oh, but like, in terms of like digital technology.

[Courtney Grow]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

And his. About the dog.

[Courtney Grow]

No, no, no. Yes. We're not. We're not with the dog. So basically they're just kind of.

[Chandler]

You might be. Not actually up to snuff.

[Courtney Grow]

Yeah. Exactly. Okay. The second, I think, is more interesting. So this is Sergeant Yuri Buchanak.

[Chandler]

Oh, I know all about your.

[Courtney Grow]

Oh, you do?

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Courtney Grow]

Okay. Chandler's like, I subscribe to his only fans. I don't know. The way you said that was a little horrible.

[Chandler]

Well, I just definitely. Not that. I mean, he was just he. If I'm. If I'm right, isn't he this the supervisor of Proctor?

[Courtney Grow]

Yes, exactly. So Sergeant Yuri Buchanak in Massachusetts state police officer and key investigator in the Kearney case recently concluded his testimony after three days on the witness stand. His testimony has been pivotal, shedding light on both the investigative procedures and internal dynamics within law enforcement. So here are some key points. Buchanak supervised Trooper Michael Proctor, the lead investigator, who was later terminated for misconduct, including sending derogatory text messages about Karen Reed. Buchanan acknowledged giving Proctor a positive performance review despite these issues to his own disciplinary action, a forfeiture of five vacation days for inadequate supervision, and submitting an inaccurate review.

[Chandler]

Wow.

[Courtney Grow]

There are also evidence collection concerns. So the defense questioned Buchanak about discrepancies in evidence handling, such as the timing of the seizure of Reed's SUV and the integrity of the surveillance footage from the cannon from the Canton Police Department Sally Port Garage. Buchanak admitted to certain oversights, including not correcting a discrepancy regarding the SUV's seizure time. Just all of this really corroborating the idea that these folks were in cahoots.

[Chandler]

Yeah. And so, you know, Trooper Proctor is the person who, you know, was in charge of this case. He was the guy who, like, there. All of the prosecution's case rests on him and the evidence he collected. And, you know, the, you know, the. The timeline that he put together and he's been dismissed. And that, to me, is everything about, you know, about this case that kind of says it all right. And so Buchanan is his boss. And it just goes to show that, you know, Buchanan was covering for Proctor. So it's like, you can't trust this. You can't trust the boss's boss. Why are we gonna trust anything from these people? You know, where does the corruption stop?

[Courtney Grow]

No, it's such a good point. And I think also another piece of this is they really examine just the amateur hour. That investigation was the collection of, you.

[Chandler]

Know, evidence in red solo cups, stop.

[Courtney Grow]

And shop bags, also that they didn't actually make any sort of markings of where they collected anything. And I was listening to a podcast, like, deep diving deeper into this, and what they said is actually putting, like, marks where you found something. That is what you learn. Okay. In crime scene investigation 101 place markers for where all the evidence is found so that they can map out and, you know, the, the people who can work, the people who reconstruct the crime scene, they can make all their calculations to figure out what actually happened. But instead it's like, oh, we found that piece a little over there. This one was. It was all general vicinity.

[Chandler]

Yeah, I have to show you something also.

[Courtney Grow]

Like, they. And so I guess I just want to double tap on this. Yeah. He knew, okay. Those investigators, they knew how to properly market a crime scene. They purposefully fogged up this entire investigation and made it impossible to figure out what actually happened.

[Chandler]

Okay.

[Courtney Grow]

Allegedly. Boston Police Department. Don't sue me now. I know what you're capable of. So I will say allegedly.

[Chandler]

Like that's them recreating like what 18 pieces of tail light look like.

[Courtney Grow]

47.

[Chandler]

47. Excuse me. Yeah. I just showed Lauren a picture which is like a recreation of what it would look like, you know, in the snow if there were 47 pieces of tail light. And it's quite staggering. Like, you can really see 47 pieces of tail light. And I think that what is trying to be proven here is that it's pretty interesting that they didn't see the tail. They didn't see a lot of the tail light before, but then they saw a lot of it later on in the day.

[Courtney Grow]

And it's also red. They found, by the way, they found the clear glass pieces right away. But there are 47 pieces of red taillight that they didn't see till 5 o' clock after they'd taken her vehicle into custody.

[Chandler]

It's just, it's amateur. It's. At best, it's amateur hour. At worst, it's a, it's a. It's a full blown conspiracy.

[Courtney Grow]

My question is, is who? Like, I want the Boston Police Department. I guess that's what the FBI will do, right? Is come after these police officers.

[Chandler]

Well, I think, yeah, yeah.

[Courtney Grow]

Like they're under federal investigation right now, but apparently the jury can't know that.

[Chandler]

Yeah. Must have been crazy to try to get a jury poll for this.

[Courtney Grow]

So a few more details. Under cross examination, Buchanan was confronted with a group text message where he reacted with a thumbs up emoji to derogatory comments made by Proctor about Karen Reed. Buchanak defended his action by citing First Amendment rights, although he acknowledged the comment was unprofessional. One thing I also read was that a lot of times when you're like a member of the jury. It's not just what someone says, it's their energy when they're, when they're speaking, giving their testimony. And what they said was, you know, when he was talking, when he was being, when he was giving testimony to the prosecutors, he was cordial, he was professional, all was good. And then once defense comes up to cross examine his energy, his energy completely shifts. Yeah. And this is someone who's supposed to be impartial and an investigator.

[Chandler]

Someone who's supposed to just want the truth to get, you know, sorted out.

[Courtney Grow]

It is, it's so clear. I swear to you, if Carrie Reid is convicted, we are breaking her out of jail.

[Chandler]

Literally. Prison break style. I don't know. I'll start digging.

[Courtney Grow]

We will count Amani Cristo dig a tunnel for that bitch. Okay? And I'm gonna get her to St. Barth's because she deserves it. She deserves a cocktail at Eden Rock after all this shit. Okay, let's get to the latest with Diddy's trial.

[Chandler]

Yeah, I mean she probably would actually prefer that you just donate to her legal fund. She's like in some serious debt for. So just. But, but that's a lovely thought.

[Courtney Grow]

Well, I'm talking, yes, we're going to do that if she's acquitted. Yeah, but if she's not acquitted, she's got to get out of jail. Right? The debt, when she's, you know, in jail and when she's just with Jen Shaw and Elizabeth Holmes. Let's do a high level overview of updates in the DD trial.

[Chandler]

Yes.

[Courtney Grow]

So Cassie Ventura took the stand. She gave her testimony. She described her 10 year relationship involving physical abuse. She testified about Diddy and his unpredictable behavior. She said that he would hit her for simply making, quote, the wrong face or talking back to him. She broke down in tears recalling how her ex would just become a different person. The best way to describe it is his eyes just go black. That version that I was in love with was no longer there.

[Chandler]

The. It's like he became soulless.

[Courtney Grow]

One of the prosecutors asked how many times did Sean throw you to the ground before? And she said too many to count. Her forced participation in drug fueled sex parties, aka free coughs, began when she was just 22. She alleged that Diddy would direct her and a sexual partner on what to do in an act of what she believed was voyeurism. Freak offs were regular events. Get this. Between 2009 and 2023. I don't think Cassie was involved in with them up until 2023. But Diddy was holding them between 2009 and 2023. The longest freak off. You know this detail?

[Chandler]

I don't know if I do.

[Courtney Grow]

The longest freak off Chandler lasted four days. Sorry. You can barely record for longer than an hour and a half.

[Chandler]

Literally. I'm like, I'm gonna go. Time to lay down. I'm gonna be horizontal.

[Courtney Grow]

Exactly.

[Chandler]

I mean, that's the. When you are under the influence of crazy substances.

[Courtney Grow]

Even then.

[Chandler]

I don't know. I like. And also, I have no words. I can't explain this.

[Courtney Grow]

You're verklempt.

[Chandler]

I'm verklempt.

[Courtney Grow]

It's so shocking and so depraved. And this is where my Mormon roots will show. And I will say there is a great and spacious building.

[Chandler]

Okay.

[Courtney Grow]

And there's no amount of Dan Savage sex positivity mumbo jumbo that I want to hear about. Dan Savage.

[Chandler]

Feel like on talk radio growing up or something with dad.

[Courtney Grow]

He hosts a show that's like all about sex positivity. I think it was on SiriusXM.

[Chandler]

I'm thinking of somebody else.

[Courtney Grow]

Anyway, anyway.

[Chandler]

Getting him in. Rush Limbaugh.

[Courtney Grow]

There's just no amount of. I don't know. There's no amount of polyamorous spokes.

[Chandler]

Whatever.

[Courtney Grow]

People that could convince me that this is something the human spirit should be involved in.

[Chandler]

You know what? And they don't want you. They don't want you.

[Courtney Grow]

Call me Serena. Joy. But I feel like freak offs should be against the law. This is just wrong. This is just wrong.

[Chandler]

So many things about this are wrong. I mean, it's like. I think we can just state that what was happening at these parties was terrible and so much of it was not consensual. And. And people were there when they didn't want to be.

[Courtney Grow]

Yes.

[Chandler]

And we're having to do things they did not want to do. And like. And it. Yeah. I. I just hope that, like, he actually gets the book thrown at him and that it's not just, like, gets caught up in the legalies of like, the racketeering or whatever. The other. You know, the. Because so much of what he's actually on trial for is not like necessarily like four day freak offs.

[Courtney Grow]

No. For sure.

[Chandler]

Anyway, the other thing, Cassie, I believe was like eight or nine months pregnant on the stand.

[Courtney Grow]

Yes.

[Chandler]

She just. The bravery. And I believe they, like, wouldn't let her husband be in the. In the room.

[Courtney Grow]

Alex. Fine. Yeah. I don't know if he was allowed to be in. I'm not sure about that.

[Chandler]

Yeah, I know. That there was like. It was. Yeah, I know that. That was kind of contested. And what's interesting is that he was Diddy's. That Diddy actually hired him to train Cassie.

[Courtney Grow]

Okay, that is interesting. Another point of this that I want to bring up though is there are people who say this is just a cash, a Cassie cash grab. She got the cash already. She got the cash. So what's the purpose of the three day testimony? Unless this actually already. Then all this is true. And she wants justice to go eight months pregnant and describe in gruesome detail. And then also have someone cross examine you and try to make you out to just be a duplicitous liar.

[Chandler]

Right. Like someone who. You loved it.

[Courtney Grow]

Right. You wanted this. You were, you know, you were just as into it as he was to deal with that because you just. What you want to. You already got. She already got the cash.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Courtney Grow]

There's no reason she would put herself under this sort of scrutiny and also go through that if it weren't for wanting to actually have him be behind bars for what he did.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Courtney Grow]

And also dangerous. Like people always criticize the, the boys who received their settlement from Michael Jackson's estate.

[Chandler]

Right.

[Courtney Grow]

The men. Excuse me. And it's like. I'm sorry, that's the only way as a civilization we have decided people can make restitution for wrongs. Right. In a civil way.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Courtney Grow]

It's through money. It's an exchange of money. And guess what? Yes. If you've had something horrible like this happen to you, it's going to change your entire life. It could make you not able to hold down a job cuz you're so mentally destroyed. So yeah, money works. Give this. Give her some money.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Courtney Grow]

Anyway, Cassie testified that Diddy controlled all aspects of her life from pressuring her to get implants to influencing what hairstyle she wore. She also allegedly. He also allegedly encouraged her to get her clitoris and nipples pierced. Despite settling the civil lawsuit in 2023 for 20 million. Excuse me. She said she's testifying now to quote, do the right thing.

[Chandler]

Well, because you know, I think like isn't there some, there was some award for like there was some Diddy award. It's like she got her money, but it's time people know that he is a bad man.

[Courtney Grow]

Yeah. And I think also it's like you.

[Chandler]

Can'T sleep well, you can't sleep at night knowing that like this bad man is being like publicly praised.

[Courtney Grow]

And I think that it's like important for all the other ditties. We don't know about all just the rich men who throw their gross sex parties and drug women on their private jets and on their super yachts. It's important for them to see that if. If Sean Diddy Combs can go to prison. Yeah, you bet your ass can go to prison.

[Chandler]

Right? Right. I think especially when we feel like the Jeffrey Epstein stuff just was such. Just such a letdown in terms of, like. Is that a bad thing to say?

[Courtney Grow]

No, it's just there was no actual justice.

[Chandler]

Yeah, no actual justice.

[Courtney Grow]

None of the men who committed the assault and, like, child rape are in jail. Only the woman who was involved in the sex trafficking. Yes. She shouldn't be in jail. And guess what? All those men, Prince Andrew should be in jail.

[Chandler]

Right.

[Courtney Grow]

Okay.

[Chandler]

All right. Well, now that we have said Prince Andrew should be in jail, I think it's time for us to conclude this episode. Allegedly. Allegedly. Allegedly. Allegedly.

[Courtney Grow]

I need to be tranquilized. This was. I was. You know, this was a very chill episode. Glad we just got to shoot the breeze.

[Chandler]

Literally. Yeah. Just the lightest of subject matter. Thank you for taking us through these cases.

[Courtney Grow]

You're very welcome. Thank you for being here with me today, everyone. If you like what we're doing here, if you enjoy the show, please consider being a global elite subscribing to our bonus episodes. There's one that drops every Monday and a mini episode that drops every Friday. So it's three pop apologist touch points throughout the week. We pour our heart and soul into the show, and we really just appreciate every single person who is a subscriber and every single person who listens and every single person who. Yeah. Lends their ear to our nonsense. To our brain rot.

[Chandler]

Non.

[Courtney Grow]

Yes. Okay. Love you guys. And we'll be back on Friday and then on Monday and then next Wednesday.

[Chandler]

And then on Wednesday. Bye.

[Lauren]

Are you looking for your next case? Pluto TV has all your favorite crime dramas streaming for free.

[Courtney Grow]

You're gonna need some backup, which means.

[Lauren]

Suspense is for very cool. Watch CSI New York, Criminal Minds, Blue Bloods Tracker, FBI and swat. All for free.

[Courtney Grow]

You can't outrun this.

[Lauren]

Someone is gonna pay for all this crime, but it's not gonna be you. Take care of business, fellas. Watch all the cases all for free from all your favorite devices. We got you feel the free Pluto TV stream. Now pay Never.

[Chandler]

Clocking outta the content factory.

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I'm Tucker.

[F]

And I'm Becca. And this is a podcast where we take a break from climbing the absolute corporate ladder that is being a TikToker that's right.

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You may be wondering what goes on in the Content Factory.

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Give us the agenda, Tucker.

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Well, each episode starts with a performance.

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Review where we talk about what's going on in the week. Content. We're making DMs, we're getting a little.

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Peek behind the curtain of the content creator life. We also will be doing an HR.

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Report where we ask you guys during the week what is some workplace drama you got going on?

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And we'll end each episode with a rapid fire and hire things we want.

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To get rid of and things we want to keep.

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For example, Becca, what do you want to fire this week?

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My ibs.

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Absolutely.

[Chandler]

Okay.

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Please complete by end of day, follow rate and review the Content Factory wherever you get your podcast.

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