← Pop Apologists
Loading summary
Transcript221 lines
- [00:01]
Mochi Health
Mochi Health is here to help you start your weight loss journey with caring, personalized support. Meet one on one with board certified obesity doctors and registered dietitians who truly listen and understand your unique needs. Eligible patients can access affordable GLP1 medications delivered right to their door each month. No insurance, no problem. Mochi Health accepts FSA and HSA, making care accessible and affordable. And with 24. 7 customer service, you'll never feel alone on your path to better health. Get started with Mochi Health today. Take the free quiz at joinmochi.com and use code AUDIO40 at checkout for $40 off your first month of membership. That's join M-H-I.com with promo code AUDIO40.
- [00:50]
Sponsor
This episode of Popapologist is brought to you by booking.combooking.
- [00:55]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [00:56]
Sponsor
From vacation rentals to hotels across the U.S. booking.com has the ideal summer stay for absolutely anyone, even those who might seem impossible to please. Find exactly what you're booking for booking.com booking yeah. Book today on the site or in the app.
- [01:19]
Nora Princioti
We are so excited because we are joined by Nora Princioti. Nora is an author and staff writer at the Ringer, where she covers culture from Taylor Swift to the National Football League. She also hosts the pop music podcast Every Single Album. She is also the author of her newly released book, Hit Girls that is an entertaining and deeply nostalgic dive into how female pop stars broke through the music industry in the 2000s and altered the cultural landscape forever. Nora, thank you so much for joining Popapologists.
- [01:48]
Chandler
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited for this.
- [01:50]
Nora Princioti
It's gonna be so fun. Chandler and I got an advanced copy of Hit Girls. Don't mean to Brag. And we had such a fun time reading through about all of these pop icons that really did, I think, shape millennial childhoods and were these fixtures in our lives. And it was just such a fun, you know, walk down memory road to read about Avril Lavigne, Beyonce, Britney, Rihanna, Lady Gaga. There's just so much in here that I had forgotten. So thank you for this. This, honestly, this historical document.
- [02:22]
Chandler
So it's funny you say that because a couple weeks ago my publisher emailed me and was like, I have great news. And I really think they should have said, like, this is a real good news, bad news situation. Because what it was was that the book had been chosen as like an Amazon editor's pick, which is obviously great and I'm very happy for that. Uh, but they have to put it in a category and they'd put it in history, because that's what the 2000s is now. And I was like, okay, I'm sure this is good for sales, so I guess I'll take it. But I'm honestly incredibly insulted on behalf of millennials everywhere.
- [02:59]
Nora Princioti
Chandler and I had a similar moment professionally where we were going to do a collaboration with another podcast. And we were like, let's talk about, you know, iconic pop moment moments of the 90s. And their producer wrote back, and she's like, these girls were born in the late 2000s, so they would, you know, they were wondering if you could do something a little bit more current. And I'm like, okay, thanks. Wow. Put it in our place. No, but it is a historical document, and there's so much. There's so many fun, you know, stories, so many fun moments.
- [03:31]
Lauren
I also think that the book is.
- [03:33]
Unknown
Like, the reason that Lauren and I have this podcast.
- [03:36]
Lauren
I would say, like, the women contained.
- [03:37]
Unknown
In the book, maybe that's wrong.
- [03:39]
Lauren
Set your book, but, like, the.
- [03:42]
Chandler
The.
- [03:42]
Unknown
The women in this book that you talk about are, like, the reason why, like, we care about pop culture. Like, these women raised us, and they are, like, they've held our attention for so long, and it's like, why we do what we do.
- [03:55]
Chandler
No, I'm so glad you said that, because my experience of writing it was I had this, like, crystal clear understanding of who needed to be in the book. Like, there was just something, you know, it's like. It's, like, instinctual at this point where I was like, okay, well, the Paris Hilton belongs in this book. But also, so does Ashlee Simpson, but also, so does Gaga. And it just made innate sense to me to group those people together. And then, of course, I had to go back and be like, okay, what actually can I say about all of these people in combination with each other? And that took a lot more, like, you know, soul searching and thinking and talking to editors and sort of figuring out that, you know, some of so much of it ended up having to do with the experience of covering Taylor Swift over the last few years and feeling like we've gotten to this point with sort of the state of the pop star and realizing that the umbrella for all of those people together was that they kind of created that mold that we live with now. But initially I was like, well, I don't totally know what it is, but I just know that all of those people belong together because, as you said, like, they raised us. That was our childhood.
- [05:03]
Unknown
They paved the way. They, like, you know, they, like, Built the tunnel, whatever you want to say. Like, they are, like, the reason that we have, like, a Taylor Swift now. And, you know, and so anyway, yeah, just paying respect to these, like, you know, the shoulders of giants, to these hit girls.
- [05:19]
Nora Princioti
I mean, Chandler and I, our favorite for sure is Taylor Swift. So we are going to exercise a modicum of restraint and leave her to the end. Because if we start now, we will not stop.
- [05:32]
Unknown
I'm. I'm not gonna make any promises for myself.
- [05:34]
Chandler
That's fine. I would not ask you to.
- [05:36]
Nora Princioti
Um, I would love to start a little with Ashley Simpson, because I feel like my personal journey with Ashlee Simpson, I think, is one a lot of people shared, which is at the beginning, when she first came out and hit the music scene, we all thought, okay, this is Jessica's sister. She's not Jessica. And she kind of seemed a little cringe, like Avril Tryhard wannabe.
- [05:56]
Unknown
A little more grungy.
- [05:58]
Nora Princioti
Yeah, sure. A little more edgy. But it didn't, I think, read us. Super authentic. But I think part of growing up and maturing is realizing that Pieces of Me is a banger and these songs are exc. So I'm curious if you had a similar trajectory, your journey with Ashley and what you think her contribution really was to the canon.
- [06:17]
Chandler
So my journey, I was, like, always pro. I was maybe a little bit more of an. Of an Avril Ashley girl than like a Britney girl. Which is not to say that I didn't love both. And I actually don't feel like I felt the need to choose quite as much as I think when I've talked to other people and I've talked to our peers, I think a lot of people felt strongly that they kind of needed to be in one camp or the other. And I don't totally remember that being how I felt, but I did. I loved her from the start. I think the thing that I. I thought was interesting, just going back and thinking about her, was that the fact that she had Jessica, I think, was so instructive because it was a little mini example of the, like, Avril versus Britney dichotomy, where there was this whole idea, I think, especially coming out of the 90s, because a lot of the 2000s, particularly the early years, exists so much in the shadow of the 90s and how people thought about music in the 90s, which was so defined by grunge and rock and roll in general, and. And these ideas of, like, very, you know, serious men who were thinking and playing guitar and allegedly. And so there was this idea that. That meant that you were authentic. If you were standing on a stage with a real acoustic instrument and if you had this kind of edge, that somehow that was real. And the problem is that when you start to interrogate, like, okay, what does it mean for it to be real? It's still a performance. You know, Kurt Cobain was still performing and had an affect to some degree, it starts to fall apart really quickly. And so I think what we did is we defined authenticity in relation to something else. So Avril was authentic because she wasn't like Britney Spears.
- [08:18]
Nora Princioti
Oh, interesting.
- [08:20]
Chandler
But because that was. And I think Ashley, to some degree, was cast in the relief of her sister. But then when someone like that comes out and the beginning of their career is marketed so aggressively as, like, this is deep, this is from the soul. This isn't this, you know, Swedish hit factory woman who's just hopping into a studio and singing to track, by the way. A skill, something people are interested in, an art in and of itself. I don't really know what's wrong with that. But when you're told that someone is important because they're doing the opposite of that, it's kind of a trap, right? Because once they're not. Once they're revealed to not actually be. Once they're revealed to be doing some element of performance, then they're a fraud. And I think both Avril and Ashley got really caught up in that because in Avril's case, she's basically just as much of a major label pop star, someone whose songs are being marketed to a specific audience as Britney Spears was. And so the idea that she was. She did a little bit of songwriting, so did Britney. But the idea that, like, every lyric that she was saying was this deeply felt from the soul thing she'd scribbled in her bedroom, that was always a fabrication and that was always marketing. And the problem was it was just so aggressive that when someone revealed, oh, well, she has co writers, she has help, it's like, oh, she's. She's been lying to all of us.
- [10:02]
Unknown
She's a fraud.
- [10:03]
Chandler
Totally. And so that's why I think there is. It's funny because it's. It started from this place of, these are the real ones, but it switches so quickly to, these are the fake ones. Because if you puncture the image, it got really sticky for people. So I think that's why the impression that they were a little try hard is something that a lot of people have, again, I always love because I sort of had an inclination to the angsty stuff. So I was always super into them. I think the thing that I, I love about Ashley Simpson is just the fact that that SNL performance, which I think is part of that paradigm of you're being revealed to just be sort of like another empty vessel pop star. And because the pitch was something different from that, it all comes crumbling down around her. Has ended up being this kind of watershed moment in how people think about what we actually want out of pop stars. Because it sparked this whole debate about poptimism and like that, that is just really, that is a satisfying arc to me. So I've loved the music, but I also just sort of love what she's meant to culture over time and what.
- [11:10]
Nora Princioti
So you talk about poptivism in the book. What exactly is poptivism?
- [11:15]
Chandler
This is a complicated one because actually the, the sort of movement that came out of that Ashley Simpson SNL performance was not about poptimism per se, but it was a conversation about rockism, which is sort of the antithesis of poptimism, which was this idea that the music industry, and particularly criticism used the ideals and values of rock and roll as the ideals and values of all music. So if you think about, you know, rock and roll since the advent of popular music for sale in recorded formats, which sort of is the 50s onward, rock and roll is kind of the defining musical genre. And so we would, you know, we don't have a music hall of fame, we have a Rock and Roll hall of fame. Rolling Stone is a rock magazine now. It's, it's not, but it sort of is canonically. And so that is how you get a lot of pop stars whose art form involves spectacle and fabrication and fantasy being analyzed through the same lenses and as though they share the same goals as someone who's getting up on stage with a six piece band and playing live music, live music. And so the values of rockism would be like, your album is more important than your single. Your live touring has to be sort of this like athletic feat. Uh, it, it's supposed to be almost antagonistic to the mainstream, whereas pop is very friendly to the mainstream. And so in the wake of this Ashlee Simpson performance on SNL where she's revealed to be lip syncing and, and there is so much commentary over she's been exposed, she's a fraud. There is this really pivotal essay in the New York Times about why do we care that she's not doing this in the same way that Kurt Cobain was or the Beatles were? Like, why are those the Values that we want to assess everyone by. And so that essay was actually sort of arguing against rockism. Optimism ends up being the banner under which people kind of take that argument forward. And the idea of poptimism would be, just because there is an element of spectacle and fabrication that is intrinsic to pop music does not mean that it is any more shallow than any other genre or any other type of music, and that it should be assessed in accordance to its own goals, its own ideals.
- [14:16]
Nora Princioti
Not all music endeavors at the same time. Set of, you know, same set of, like, it doesn't all need to be written by the person who sings it. It doesn't all need to be on an organic instrument. Like, I think that you also talk in the book about how, you know, EDM is something that emerges and is really kind of judged harshly at the beginning. And I think you said Dave Grohl gave a quote where he said basically that, like, he got up on stage and he said, you know, music is about, you know, being with your guitar and singing a song you wrote and.
- [14:44]
Unknown
Like music the old fashioned way or something like that.
- [14:46]
Chandler
Yeah, that was an awards show. Is it a grammys or a VMAs or something? And he walked it back pretty quickly because I think we now know Dave Grohl to be pretty clearly someone who sometimes gets a little chatty and that has some regrets about that, which is fine. I can relate to that in some ways. But then he. Yeah, his. His apology post was like, I don't know how Skrillex does what he does, but I know it's really cool. And then he signed it, like Dead Mouse. But Dave Mouse with the M and the.
- [15:15]
Nora Princioti
I mean, it's definitely giving. You know, when I was your age, I walked to school in the snow.
- [15:19]
Chandler
Yeah, totally, totally.
- [15:20]
Unknown
I think that people want to ascribe, like, morality or value to, like, their music taste and what they like, obviously what they like about, you know, the music that they like. And they want the music that they like to be more high art maybe than other people. Not everyone, but I think, you know, and this. I'm not gonna. Okay, I'm gonna go to Taylor Swift. I know we said we worked.
- [15:40]
Lauren
I'm gonna wait.
- [15:40]
Unknown
But I think this is why, you know, there's this kind of interesting thing where some people who, you know, are really big music lovers, they don't partake in Taylor Swift or whatnot because they don't, you know, they don't buy into like necessarily her as an artist sometimes.
- [15:54]
Nora Princioti
Well, it just ridiculous. They don't like the idea of what it says about them. And sure, that used to be. I think that idea used to be much bigger, especially when we were younger, that your music said a lot about how cool you are.
- [16:06]
Unknown
Cool, smart you were.
- [16:07]
Chandler
How.
- [16:07]
Nora Princioti
Yeah, smart you were. Cool. How unique your taste was. And I do think we have. We're now in a, you know, in a environment where there's just like a little bit less prissiness around all of it.
- [16:21]
Chandler
Yeah, I think that's right. I do think it still exists though, because think of how many people got into Taylor Swift or sort of felt a permission structure where they could start expressing the fact that they were into Taylor Swift around Folklore Evermore. And that had something to do at least with the cosign of these really credible sort of alt indie rock guys. And I don't know if that's like ideal, although I think any avenue into appreciating the massive contributions to the artistic canon of Taylor Allison Swift is a good one. But it's still like. I do think that those ideas have really faded. But they are still with us.
- [16:58]
Nora Princioti
Yeah, no, they definitely are. I mean, I feel like in many social circles I'm in, putting Taylor Swift on is something that will be met with consternation and some like open remarks. And so I feel like pearls before swine. I just don't.
- [17:14]
Unknown
I was literally walking with two new people who I'd never met before. We were at a birthday party and whatever I was, I met some. Two new people, I will say I think they were much younger than me. And I said that I love Taylor Swift and I just felt the air change when I said it and I was just like. Like, I just couldn't even believe like the effect of those words with just like two random people off the street.
- [17:38]
Chandler
The Gen Z is, I think, has a complicated relationship with her. And then if you get really young, they're obsessed with her and then we're obsessed with her. But there, there is. I think there is a skip. I talked to a college class somewhat recently and they were really fun and they actually asked really, really good questions because they have. They have not grown up with her in the same way that we have. But she's been around for long enough that they have had enough experience that they kind of get what she's doing. But they were so like antagonistic. And I was like, okay, guys, I.
- [18:09]
Lauren
Want to talk about the innovation happening over at Clean Simple Eats. Okay? They have come up with unflavored protein powder, which is something I was yearning for. That I didn't know existed. And it is just perfect because sometimes you just want your protein shakes or your little, you know, chocolate chip cookie dough balls to just have a little bit extra boost.
- [18:29]
Sponsor
Okay, so you're telling me you can.
- [18:30]
Nora Princioti
Put this in a baked good, you.
- [18:32]
Sponsor
Can put it in water, you can just put it in whatever and it will add protein without messing up the flavor, texture, consistency.
- [18:40]
Lauren
Yes, Lauren, it's literally a genius product. One scoop I believe has 25 grams of protein.
- [18:45]
Sponsor
Wow.
- [18:46]
Lauren
Yes. It's the unflavored protein powder from Clean Simple Eats.
- [18:50]
Sponsor
You guys go to cleansimpleats.com use code popapologist for 10% off. You know, I swear by the clear protein cans. Chandler swears by the unflavored protein powder. There are many solutions, thanks to Clean Simple Eats to get your protein needs, cleansimpleats.com, use code popapologist for 10% off.
- [19:09]
Nora Princioti
Chan, I have a friend.
- [19:11]
Sponsor
She's very esteemed. Forbes 30 under 30 has a very impressive company. She's the CEO, she's a tycoon, she sits on boards or whatever.
- [19:20]
Nora Princioti
She has a lot going on in her brain.
- [19:22]
Lauren
Why is she friends with you?
- [19:23]
Nora Princioti
That is honestly the million dollar question. But I have to tell you, I.
- [19:26]
Sponsor
Got a text from her husband the other day and he said thank you so much for recommending Early Bird cbd. And she has honestly been able to just chill out a little bit. So much more. She takes half a gummy and it has been life changing for her. We cannot swear by Early Bird CBD gummies more.
- [19:45]
Unknown
In our households, they are the only.
- [19:47]
Lauren
Gummies that I reach for.
- [19:49]
Sponsor
They help you in the middle of the night. Just get back to sleep if you want to enjoy a show more, a delicious meal, melt into that pillow of yours, you guys. Early birds. See cbd.com use code POPAPOLOGIST for 20 off. You will not regret it. And a bottle lasts a long time. That's early bird cbd.com use code popapologist for 20 off.
- [20:09]
Lauren
The humidity in New York City is not kind to my hair. And I recently saw a photo of my hair from the back and I knew it was time for me to get on the neutral train. I've seen Lauren's results and they're amazing. I've started taking Nutraful, Women's Balance, and things have already shifted. Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand trusted by over 1.5 million people. Anything worthwhile takes time. And with Nutrafol, you can see thicker, stronger, faster, Growing hair and less shedding in just three to six months. It takes a whole body approach to target the root causes and their clinically tested formulas support what your hair actually needs. This summer, stop worrying about your hair and start making memories. For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping with. When you go to nutrafold.com and enter the promo code POP. Find out why Nutrafol is the best selling hair growth supplement brand@nutrafold.com spelled n u t r a f o l.com, promo code pop. That's nutrafol.com promo code pop.
- [21:11]
Nora Princioti
First of all, I'm, I'm curious. You just interviewed Miley Cyrus, which is a huge interview. Congratulations. That's incredible. I mean, this is a pop culture podcast. We do celebrity gossip. So I just have to ask, when you interview an A lister, like, how does it work? Like, are there like doves that like come through the office first? Like, is there a flash of light before she emerges? Like, I'm so curious, like, how this happens.
- [21:35]
Chandler
I did feel like there was sort of a choir of angels that began to sing when she entered our studio. This happened in, in a way that was completely different from any other interview with a famous person that I've ever done. Not that I've done tons and tons, but she knew that on every single album. We were doing a series where we were covering every single Miley Cyrus album and she got wind of it and she just went, nobody's going to talk about every single album that I've ever created without my contribution to it. And she got in touch with us and was like, I want to come on. I love that. It was incredible. And I just, I have not. I'm sure you guys sort of perceive this both as people who interview people, but also just observers of popular culture. I think in general, there is a thing that happens when someone has lived their life in the public eye for a long period of time, which is that there is a kind of defensiveness that sets in because you're just, you've been watched and people comment on you constantly. And I think it, it tends to create a little bit of a protective shell, which is really justifiable. But there's a tendency to approach most things from this place of, well, people are going to get things wrong about me. People are always getting things wrong about me. And I just, I don't know that I've ever interviewed anyone even close to the plane of fame and long term life. In the public eye as Miley Cyrus, who just did not have a shred of that. She really. She was an open book and she was not precious about things deep in her catalog that didn't work and songs that are not her best songs. She also was completely willing if stuff like that came up. And she was like, yeah, that song stinks. But that wasn't my idea. My label made me do that and I had nothing to do with that. And I will take the responsibility for the stuff that was my idea that didn't work out, but that one is not on me. Um, and then she could talk about the stuff, obviously that. That is transcendent and. And some of her all time songs. And she just like the music, her personal life. She was. We were asking her about the younger now album era, which is the one with Malibu, and she was wearing a lot of like, she'd done this hard pivot to wearing a lot of sort of white flag flowy cotton dresses. She's got a flower crown in her hair. And it. This was in 2017, I want to say. So it was briefly post election and there was a lot of confusion in the branding of it because it seemed like this sort of strange idea to try to appeal to a more conservative strain of culture. Um, it also just like it, you know, Miley Cyrus had pretty recently been hair in the buns and twerking and something really, really different. And all of a sudden she's like in a field wearing a flower crown and people are like, what's going on here? And this like, makes me want to cry in some ways. But I also thought it was just amazing that she was able to articulate it that way. She. What she said to us was, you know, my marriage was kind of falling apart and I was trying to save it and I was with this person who. And she would just say, Liam. She was like, well, Liam and I. And I'm like, I know. That was crazy.
- [25:08]
Nora Princioti
She was like, oh, basically all my songs are about Liam. I'm like, what? You never hear that someone talk like that?
- [25:13]
Chandler
Yeah, because it's always. There's such a tendency to be sort of euphemistic even when everybody knows what everybody's talking about and say, like, oh, well, I was in a past relationship that was. It was happening this way. She was like, well, like Liam just really felt like the. The craziness of the Bangers era had been really. Had really strained us. And I wanted to prove that I could be like a good girl and softer. Softer, totally.
- [25:39]
Nora Princioti
And vulnerable.
- [25:40]
Chandler
It totally made sense to me of that era, but I also was like, wow, I can't believe she just said that.
- [25:49]
Unknown
I need to now go listen to that album and Malibu specifically with, like, just like, with all that new context because, I don't know, I loved her and Liam together and obviously, you know, it didn't work out, but, like, hearing it to be, not meant to be, but hearing that, I don't know, just. Yeah, hearing that she shared that with you is amazing.
- [26:08]
Chandler
But she also was. The thing that was crazy about it was she wasn't like, deep breath, inhale. Now I'm going to express my, like, deepest truth. She was just like, yeah, I put all these white dresses on because I was, like, sort of trying to prove something to my husband and that just wasn't a great place to make an album from. And she just moved on.
- [26:28]
Unknown
It sounds like, you know, she was raised in the Disney sphere or whatever. Like, it sounds like she doesn't take herself crazy seriously and that she doesn't. I don't know. She's not so, like, yeah, precious. Like you said about her history and everything, that it's like, yeah, you know, I did this. I wrote seven things, you know, when I was dating Nick Jonas or whatever. Like, I just. I love. I love it.
- [26:49]
Chandler
People went. At one point, she did say Niley for Nick and Miley. And there is a subset of the Internet that really went crazy for that moment in a way that I. I didn't realize that was gonna happen.
- [27:01]
Nora Princioti
Oh, my gosh.
- [27:02]
Unknown
I love it.
- [27:02]
Nora Princioti
If you compare it to she who Must Not Be Named, there's just no interview ever where she would just work. Taylor would say, oh, you know, and then Jake, right, did this, and I was trying to prove this. So very, very cool.
- [27:14]
Lauren
I think it also, if I can.
- [27:15]
Unknown
You know, just extrapolate a bit, I feel like it speaks to maybe the place that her and Liam are in now where it's. I don't know, it's not like, maybe there. It sounds like they're in a good place. She feels like she can kind of comfortably talk about their relationship.
- [27:26]
Chandler
Yeah, it seemed like there's a lot of love there. I mean, even with her family, who she's gone through such ups and downs with in terms of conflict there. Like, when someone is able to be open about something, it always signals to me that they have a certain peace with it, even if it's not an.
- [27:44]
Nora Princioti
Easy thing and safe people around them.
- [27:45]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [27:46]
Nora Princioti
Yeah. So I'm curious. When it comes to Miley, I will Say, I definitely have probably neglected her musical contributions personally, which is something, which is something I will atone for. But I just have been, I will have been listening to a lot of Taylor and my question is, is I'm 34. If I'm entering the Miley sphere. Beyond the radio hits, beyond flowers, beyond Party in the usa, what album do I turn to at this stage?
- [28:13]
Chandler
You know what you should listen to? You should listen to Meet Miley Cyrus off the second Hannah Montana two sided disc because that album is full of bangers. I swear to you. It's so neglectful.
- [28:24]
Unknown
Now I want to see what's me on the I'm Cyrus. I feel like I might be quasi familiar.
- [28:28]
Chandler
Yeah, you will be. There's a song called the Driveway on that album that's ABS or no. The Driveway may be on Breakout Love Breakout. It has like East Northumberland or just Forever.
- [28:39]
Unknown
And this is the album cover.
- [28:40]
Lauren
This is where you need to begin.
- [28:41]
Nora Princioti
Lauren is okay, I will definitely, I'm definitely going to give that album its due. But is there another album that's maybe potentially a little more mature?
- [28:50]
Chandler
Short listen to the new one, Something Beautiful is, is, is really good. I think it's her best top to bottom album. I think the thing with Miley is that and I, I, this had not crystallized to me until I spent 10 or 12 or 15 hours of podcast time deep diving. She kind of has been a singles artist in a lot of ways and I think, you know, she talked about, she's clearly an incredibly high energy person and when she was talking to us about her new album, she was going, oh, and I already have the next one. Like it's, it's on my phone and she's holding up her phone and she's got a track list and she has of this stuff. And that was interesting to me because one thing that I had noticed over the course of going through all the albums is she would do this thing where she was putting out a record and when she was doing press for it and promo for it, she would say, yeah, this doesn't really represent me anymore and I'm kind of on to the next thing. And I was always like, is this like a defense mechanism thing just in case, like if it doesn't land, she's saying it's not her or she's not happy with it in some way. And I had perceived that all is within this kind of pendulum swinging of she comes out of Disney and by the time she was out of being Hannah, I think she was really ready to be done with that and felt like Disney had become a little bit restrictive for her. And then she boomeranged so far in the other direction with, like, once you get to Bangers especially, that everything was a reaction to the thing that came before, instead of her actually sitting down and being like, who am I? What do I want to do? Who do I want to be as an artist and doing what really represented that? And I. I think. I still think some of that is probably true. But what she said was, no, that's really not it. I wasn't trying to not stand by the work. I just really, truly am onto the next thing. And it takes so long to market an album that by the time I'm sitting down doing the interviews, I really, truly am in a different place. And I think that made me understand a little bit why she's had these huge, huge singles, because they come out in a moment in time when she's, like, really invested in the process. And maybe, like, I don't mean to say that she's not invested in the process the whole way through, but where it feels really present to her. And so I think her singles have tended to be the right ones. Like, we always talk with Taylor about how she doesn't always make the right choices for the singles. Miley almost always chooses the right songs.
- [31:29]
Nora Princioti
Because she can just release them. You just have to wait for the full album to come out.
- [31:32]
Chandler
Yeah, she's just. She's just.
- [31:34]
Nora Princioti
Yeah.
- [31:36]
Chandler
And so I don't think, like, if you are listening to We Can't Stop and Wrecking Ball off of Bangers, sure, go give that whole album a spin through. But you're hearing the Mount Rushmore songs like that.
- [31:49]
Nora Princioti
That's.
- [31:49]
Chandler
That's right. I think you have the right understanding of Miley Cyrus, an artist, if you have been listening to the radio singles.
- [31:56]
Nora Princioti
Well. Well, thank you. Okay.
- [31:58]
Unknown
You've been doing it right all along.
- [32:00]
Nora Princioti
I appreciate that.
- [32:01]
Unknown
Do you want to share that little bit of tea that you had about or. No.
- [32:05]
Chandler
Oh, my God. The.
- [32:06]
Nora Princioti
The.
- [32:07]
Chandler
She did say. One of the craziest things she said when. When we were talking was that during Miley Cyrus and Her Dead Pets, which was the album she put out for free on Soundcloud. Just. Still one of the craziest things that, like, an A list or pop star has done in our lifetimes is she did this, like, psychedelic rock experimental album with Wayne Coyne from the Flaming Lips and put it out for free. And it was all inspired by pets that had died. She also said that she used to keep the ashes of her dead pig on her bedside table in, like, a jar. But then she wasn't getting, like, she was dating and she would bring people home and she felt like it was cramping her sex life.
- [32:53]
Unknown
So there she ashes of her dead.
- [32:55]
Chandler
Her dead pig. Yeah, she's had a lot of animals over time, and a lot of them do seem to. She seems like an incredible pet owner. And she was. Sorry, now I'm like, going in 90 different. She said a lot of stuff.
- [33:07]
Unknown
Pets die, that happens.
- [33:08]
Chandler
Yeah, pets die, that happens. And she also. She would really like to have 15 dogs. But you guys, as native Californians, maybe you are more familiar with this than I was. You're only allowed to have so many pets in California. Or maybe it's Los Angeles.
- [33:24]
Nora Princioti
I mean, that makes sense. Yeah, yeah.
- [33:25]
Chandler
That's about coming from a good place, like, to avoid a hoarding situation. But I will say that I thought that she made a pretty compelling argument where she was like, I, I have farmland. I will feed these dogs organic food every day of their lives. They will be so well cared for. There are so many animals that need homes. All I want to do is give it to them. And so I felt that there should be some way to. Maybe we can be the first three signatories to the petition to let Miley Cyrus have all the dogs she wants.
- [33:55]
Lauren
Literally.
- [33:55]
Unknown
Send me the change, dawg. I'm ready.
- [33:57]
Chandler
Yeah, I know this is my new. This is my new pet. Cause no pun intended. But the thing that she said that was crazy. Other than the thing about dashes of her dead pigs on her bedside table and all of the other things that she said that were crazy. It was a two and a half hour interview. Was that when she was doing dead pets? Which I think was when she was also doing the most drugs in her life. Sorry, I'm giving you like 90 tangents. The other thing that she said that I thought was really funny was that, you know, she is sober now, and I think that's brought her a lot of. Of positive things in her life. But she was also like, I'm so glad that I had that era and that I did all that shit. Like, that's, again, I just think there's something healthy about. I love it. But she said that she would call when she would buy drugs. She would write it as a line item in her, like, the budget of what it costs to be Miley Cyrus, which is part of whatever business Org she had at the time. She would call it vintage clothing.
- [35:04]
Lauren
Wow.
- [35:04]
Nora Princioti
I mean, that is just such an insane thing to say publicly.
- [35:07]
Chandler
I know, I know. Page Six like wrote it up and I was like, I need Miley Cyrus to not get injured. Trouble with the government over my podcast.
- [35:16]
Nora Princioti
I also love that she was literally writing off drugs, which, I mean, it's just such an interesting. It's probably a nominal amount in the.
- [35:23]
Chandler
Scope of what it's nominal at the time.
- [35:28]
Nora Princioti
Potentially. That's fair. Potentially.
- [35:30]
Unknown
I. I love it. I love it. Everyone go listen to that episode.
- [35:32]
Chandler
She's a real one.
- [35:34]
Sponsor
This episode of Pop Apologists is brought to you by Booking.comBooking. yeah, when I'm planning a getaway, whether it's a long weekend with my husband or a getaway with my girlfriends, I always start with where we're staying. Because for me, the stay isn't just part of the experience, it is the experience. I always look for a truly stunning hotel or vacation rental with a few non negotiables, a gorgeous bathroom, a private terrace, and a view that makes you want to press pause on real life life. I've also learned to filter for balcony and bathtub because sometimes a golden hour soak is the entire itinerary. Oh, and my husband, he pretends not to care until he finds those 800 thread count sheets. That's why I love booking.com if I can find my perfect stay on booking.com anyone can find exactly what you're booking for booking.com booking.
- [36:32]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [36:33]
Sponsor
Book today on the site or in the app.
- [36:36]
Lauren
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart Choice Progressive loves to help people make smart choices. That's why they offer a tool called Auto Quote Explorer that allows you to compare your progressive car insurance quote with rates from other companies so you save time on the research and can enjoy savings when you choose the best rate for you. Give it a try after this episode@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. As the temperatures rise, I get that itch to refresh my closet. But I'm not wasting money on trendy pieces that I'll only wear once. Quint's changes everything. Their clothes are timeless, lightweight and way more elevated than anything else at this price. So I've picked up their 100 European linen shorts for only $30, plus another breathable linen piece that I've worn everywhere. And if you add in the Italian leather platform sandals, it's a whole look. Quint is the go to place for your summer wardrobe the quality totally feels like luxury just without the markup. Quint works directly with top artisans and cuts out the middlemen so you get the good stuff for half the cost. And they only partner with factories using safe ethical practices and premium fabrics. Now that's a summer one. Give your summer closet and upgrade with quintessential go to quince.comapologist for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.comapologist to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comapologist living in New York means I get sun, sea and yes, seriously sweaty sleep. Our summer nights are no joke. And honestly, crawling into bed can sometimes be a journey because I get so hot. But once I tried Cozy Earth's bamboo sheets, it was a whole different story. They're made from viscose from bamboo and actually wick away heat and moisture so I'm not tossing and turning in a heat cocoon anymore. I wake up cooler, comfier and way less cranky. And during the day I practically live in their all day tea and studio pants. They're breathable, buttery, soft and make lounging or working from home feel luxurious. Oh and get this, they offer a 100 night sleep trial and a 10 year warranty on bedding. No risk, just dreamy sleep. Luxury shouldn't be out of reach. Go to cozyearth.com and use code POP for 40% off. Bestselling temperature regulating sheets, apparel and more. Trust me, you'll feel the difference the very first night.
- [39:00]
Nora Princioti
Okay, let's talk about since youe've Been Gone, please. Because I feel like so many things about this song. One I didn't know Kelly Clarkson didn't write it. So that's one piece of new information I got from the book, but also that it kind of revitalized Max Martin's career.
- [39:16]
Chandler
Yeah, yeah, he had kind because his first era had been doing all of the boy band stuff and early Britney. But that's pretty, you know, the Britney songs were a little bit different from from the boy band songs, but he had a pretty clear sonic palette of like what a Max Martin song sounds like. And that wasn't trendy anymore. Like once we'd gotten to 2002, three, four, there was such an influx of hip hop and hip hop producers who were working with pop stars that the charts sounded really, really different than they had in 1999 and 2000, 2001. And he was like he was struggling to find work. But I think people looked at Max Martin. People in the industry looked at Max Martin as a little bit of a one trick pony. And so then with that song and with this new kind of texture of bringing elements of rock music into really mainstream pop, that ended up kind of being his second act. And he would go on to have more and more and more. But I don't know, for instance, if we get to the Max Martin that's working with Taylor and Ariana and the Weeknd, if he doesn't have the stepping stone of Kelly Clarkson and Pink.
- [40:43]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [40:44]
Chandler
Where there's this, like, rock bombast through a pop filter. Because it did show, like, it was kind of like a I've still got it thing for him.
- [40:53]
Nora Princioti
Well, and he didn't. But he. He originally did not want to give the song to Chloe Clarkson, right?
- [40:58]
Chandler
Well, no, because he was like, this woman is from American Idol, and that's corny as shit. And he was. He'd been working with, like, Celine Dion and Michael Bolton and doing these sort of greatest hits albums that were big albums. And, like, I'm sure, you know, I'm sure he was still doing really well, but he was not, like, seen as a taste maker. And so I think he thought of American Idol as a little bit, like, in a pejorative sense to him, like a little bit middle America. Yeah. And so he didn't want to do it. He had to be convinced. I don't think he knew quite how good of a singer she was either.
- [41:35]
Nora Princioti
And arguably, you know, it would not have made the dent in his career that it did if it wasn't sung by Kelly Clarkson, because totally, they tried.
- [41:42]
Chandler
To give it to Hilary Duff, who I love, who's, like, one of the most important women in the world to me, and. And particularly was during the time frame of. Of a lot of the artists in the book. But she could not have gone up the octave on the song. She couldn't have just given it the same sort of bombast.
- [42:01]
Nora Princioti
Yeah. I mean, I think that song for so many of us was a song we blasted in our cars and had a lot of cathartic, you know, singing, belting it out, singing moments when we were teenagers.
- [42:12]
Chandler
Oh, totally, totally. It's like the Kelly Clarkson superpower is to sing in a way that makes you feel like you are standing behind a jet engine, but in a good way.
- [42:25]
Nora Princioti
Yeah.
- [42:26]
Chandler
And no one actually wants to hear us do that, But I think the idea of doing that is really, really fun. And, like, the pantomime of doing that when you are in the car, especially with the windows down. 10 out of 10.
- [42:38]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [42:38]
Nora Princioti
And I think Kelly Clarkson, her. Her vocal just talent is so strong. She really embodies the fact that, yeah, she might not have written this song, but by the. But when she performs it, it doesn't matter. It is her song.
- [42:51]
Chandler
Yeah, totally.
- [42:52]
Nora Princioti
Yeah, totally. And it's such an artistry in the way she sings.
- [42:55]
Unknown
We can take a moment to pause on American Idol. We can just take a moment for American Idol.
- [43:01]
Lauren
Moment of silence.
- [43:02]
Unknown
Actually, I think it's probably still running. I don't know. I think it still exists. Well, what impact do you feel like American Idol had on our generation and that moment in time, you know?
- [43:13]
Chandler
You know, I do wonder if some of those shows contributed to like, we just, we just talked about one way, right. Is that I do think that Kelly, as one of the most successful artists to come out of. Of that show, one validated it through her success and just proving that American Idol could create a pop star who would have like a huge song like that.
- [43:34]
Unknown
Right.
- [43:35]
Chandler
But I think the other thing that's interesting is, is there are so many conversations about the idea of like relatable artists and celebrities in general. But I think in with the pop girlies in particular, there is this really pervasive idea that like, we want to think that they're normal in some way. And that really didn't used to be the case. Like, no one was looking at Madonna and being like, you know what I want you to be is a normal girl.
- [43:59]
Unknown
Yeah, I want your get ready with me.
- [44:01]
Chandler
Right, Right. And I do wonder if the experience of so many people our age spending a lot of time watching actual normal people be like, plucked out of their lives. And at least within the idea of the show, it failed more times than it actually succeeded. But the idea was we can trans, you know, you can actually become a real pop artist through this. Had something to do with. That has something to do with our desire to feel like we can relate to these people, even though we also look to them for fantasy and spectacle. Right.
- [44:44]
Nora Princioti
If we just had it in us to, you know, register online to sit in the three hour line and we were just willing to put in the work. We potentially could also have a startup.
- [44:55]
Chandler
Right.
- [44:55]
Unknown
It also led us to a great.
- [44:57]
Lauren
American politician, Clay Aiken.
- [45:01]
Nora Princioti
You know, I didn't know Clay Aiken was, you know, doing some poptivism. I guess it's poptimism, but doing some, I don't know, activism, you know, some work. He's a public servant.
- [45:11]
Unknown
Now I can't speak to where he's at in 2025, but I do know that he had Iran with politics.
- [45:17]
Chandler
Yeah, he's had a lot of. He's had some eras.
- [45:19]
Unknown
Yeah, definitely had some eras. Like. Yeah, pre Taylor. He actually has.
- [45:23]
Chandler
Yeah, he. He was a real pioneer in the eras.
- [45:27]
Nora Princioti
You guys, we must wait no longer to discuss Taylor Swift. So much to say. We need to start with the most important questions because we need to get through this quickly. First of all, how do you approach the re. The rerecords now that she owns the masters? Are we disregarding them? Are we over them?
- [45:44]
Chandler
I'm listening to the ones that I want to listen to and listening to the OGs that I want to listen to.
- [45:49]
Nora Princioti
Yeah. Because I. There's a New Yorker article Scott sent me or sent us and it showed. It showed some Speak now, you know, original verse now. And now we can say it's not the same.
- [46:03]
Unknown
Not even not the same.
- [46:04]
Nora Princioti
Totally not.
- [46:05]
Chandler
No. I think Speak now was one of the ones that just. There was just an angst in hearing from a petulant teenager that I think was really, really hard to recapture. I do. The funny thing is that some of Fearless, I think because some of those songs are so broad in a good way where like Love Story is just a sing along. It's this sort of all timer song that is so hooky you just sort of instantly recognize. This is amazing. I think hearing that with her more mature, fuller vocals is really wonderful. And. And so I think even though it's temporally similar, that's one that went really well to me. And then Speak now was a little bit tougher. I also like I ride for the internalized misogyny version of Better Than Revenge. That's something that I. I continue to go back to.
- [46:57]
Nora Princioti
Do you think that it was her plan to devalue the original so she could buy them back at a discount?
- [47:03]
Chandler
Yeah, I mean, I think she. I think she's had a few different plans along the way. Even if the execution of all of those plans has been the same thing. Has been doing the RE recordings and going on the Eras tour and. And kind of creating this whole new world around all of her past discography and then using that to her advantage. I think initially she was in a blind rage and was so angry at Scooter and Scott Borchetta that the idea comes up of rerecording her back catalog and she's just like, yeah, if I can do this to get back at those mfers, like, let's Go. And then through the experience of diving back into that, the tour is born probably somewhere. I don't know if it's when she's on the tour or sometime after Shamrock Capital buys the. Buys the masters from Scooter, it probably becomes clear to her pretty quickly that she can buy these back if she wants to and that they are open to doing a deal, because I think they have been pretty open by that point. I think the reason that she doesn't is because, like, the plan is just kind of in motion. The plan is working.
- [48:27]
Unknown
People are excited about the plan.
- [48:28]
Nora Princioti
She's making a lot of money on the plan.
- [48:30]
Chandler
She's making a lot of money and sort of knows that she can probably continue to do that and that it's facilitating the tour and. And it's just everything is sort of building off of each other because people are. You know, I think one of the. The. It's not a dirty secret, but one of the misunderstood ironies is that by doing everything that she's done over the last few years, which has just made her even more famous. Yes, she had. She devalued the originals relative to the value of the RE recordings because she was able to get the streamers and a lot of business partners to prioritize those records. Actually, all of her catalog got more attention.
- [49:15]
Nora Princioti
Right.
- [49:15]
Chandler
Like people were listening to Original Speak now or Original Fearless or Original Red more than they were before the RE recordings came out, even if it was a smaller piece of the pie. So she had just, like. It was just a rising tide that rose so much that I think she wanted to. I think she had a business incentive to let it play out. I think it was probably really fun for her. The tour was groundbreaking and amazing, and why would you stop that momentum? Um, so I think it all kind of played hand in hand. But like, she. Yes, she could have done this sooner if. If her only goal had been I want to buy back the Masters.
- [49:53]
Nora Princioti
You cover so much, obviously, in pop music and pop culture, but really music. My. My question for you is Taylor is obviously like the superstar of our generation. I think she sucks a lot of the oxygen out of the room when it comes to, you know, other people in her sphere. Who would we be obsessed with if there was no Taylor Swift?
- [50:13]
Chandler
Oh, wow.
- [50:14]
Nora Princioti
Who would be the queen?
- [50:15]
Chandler
What an interesting question. I mean, here's. I will. I will push back on the premise just a little bit, which is think of the last couple of years. And yes, the summer of 2023, I think, was so defined by the eras tour and, you know, rightfully so. But since then, we have had Sabrina Carpenter, Chapel, Roan, We've had Brat Summer. We've had some of the albums from like, Dua Lipa, Ariana weren't necessarily huge, huge, but still made an impact. Ariana's had multiple number ones. She's also been super zeitgeisty because of Wicked. Like, I. I don't know that we look at the last particularly year and a half and can really say that even with Travis and all the football stuff, that she hasn't left room for other women in pop to thrive and to get their moments and to get their shine.
- [51:16]
Nora Princioti
I'm not, by the way, I'm not saying she's not leaving room for them. You know, you can't help how she can't help how amazing she is.
- [51:23]
Chandler
No, and she. And I totally know what you're saying because she is a magnet and she. She gets a lot of eyeballs. I don't know that I've felt like I've experienced her being so central to culture as she was at the peak of the tour. And like, we're going on the A year even a little bit more. Like, even by the end of the. The tail end of the tour, I think people had. Had moved on a little bit. Even though the Swifty community obviously was still so engaged. I mean, I. I think it's. Beyonce is the answer.
- [51:52]
Nora Princioti
Okay.
- [51:53]
Chandler
Um. You know, I think Cowboy Carter. It's sort of tempting to compare it to the Eras tour because there isn't much else that you can compare something of that scale to. And the length and it's, you know, it's three hours long. She really is the pure performer of our generation. Like, there's just nobody else who's. Who's doing it like her. And so I. I wonder if maybe there would be more of a laser focus on what she's accomplished over the last few years if Taylor weren't such a big part of the conversation. But I'm actually so happy to be able to say that. I think a lot of people are. Are getting their flowers.
- [52:30]
Nora Princioti
Yeah, I love to hear that.
- [52:32]
Unknown
I feel like, like with Brad Summer, I feel like that was. Was a full takeover of the months of, like, those. Like, that felt almost like on a Taylor level for me or everybody, like, it was everywhere.
- [52:44]
Chandler
Yes. But the funny thing about that is, like, that is one of those. Brat is one of those. You ever hear people talk about how it feels like a certain HBO show, like. Like succession or something is the absolute biggest thing that's happening in culture. And then if you actually do it by the numbers, there's some, like, random CBS show, no shade, that 10 times more people are watching on a weekly basis. Brat and Brat was my favorite album of last year. I go so hard for Charlie. I'm obsessed with her. Brad is a little bit of that phenomenon where if you're like a, you know, New York City wannabe cool kid, it's the biggest thing in the world to you. And then, like, that album, in its first week did, I think around 80,000 album equivalent units and sales. The Tate McCrae album was 177.
- [53:38]
Unknown
Oh, you're kidding. Yeah, I'm, like, just now starting to, like, dip my toes into the Tate McCray.
- [53:44]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [53:45]
Unknown
Discography.
- [53:46]
Chandler
Yeah. Wow, that's crazy.
- [53:48]
Unknown
But Brat felt so much bigger.
- [53:49]
Chandler
It felt so much bigger. And like, it was because by the time, like, once we got to the Kamala Harris moment in Brat Summer and everybody's talking about it on cnn, like, I do think that Brat did achieve a certain level of, like, saturation in culture, but it is a good example of how things that actually are a little bit more niche can feel really ubiquitous, depending on sort of where you're spending the spaces you're spending your time.
- [54:19]
Lauren
Well, you also.
- [54:19]
Unknown
You don't have, like, three generations of Charli XCX fans, right?
- [54:23]
Chandler
Totally. Like you do with Taylor Swift. Totally, totally, totally.
- [54:25]
Unknown
I want to talk about for a little bit Taylor's relationship with her fans and how it's, like, evolved. You know, we started with the girl commenting back on people, you know, on.
- [54:33]
Lauren
On her posts.
- [54:34]
Unknown
And then now we, you know, now we've got songs like, you know, but Daddy, I Love him, where she's kind of, like, frustrated by her, the Hannah's and the Sarahs. So, yeah. Curious what you think about that, how it's evolved.
- [54:45]
Chandler
I do think that she, like, I had to think of her in the context of the 2000s to write about her for this book because, like, I don't canonically think of her as a 2000s artist, but the way that that made sense to me was to look at the origins of the fan base and look at how early she was going after people on MySpace and being like, I'm one of you, you are me, I am you, we are best friends, and you're gonna call a radio station and tell them to play my songs. And she has kind of masterminded the degree of parasociality and pop star fan relationships.
- [55:18]
Unknown
I mean, I think we all, Lauren and I can Speak for us. Like, we feel like if she just got in a room with us for 15 minutes, we'd all be. Be best friends.
- [55:24]
Chandler
Like, we.
- [55:25]
Unknown
Like, I feel like we're.
- [55:26]
Lauren
It's meant to be.
- [55:27]
Unknown
It's. And so, I don't know. Like, she's done that better than any other. Any other superstar.
- [55:32]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [55:32]
Nora Princioti
But now I feel like it's dissipated because she now gives us almost nothing.
- [55:36]
Unknown
Right.
- [55:36]
Nora Princioti
Like, she. I mean, she. When she's on stage. Yes. You feel that. But she's not posting on Instagram stories anymore. We don't see her life at all.
- [55:44]
Lauren
But there is still, like, a little.
- [55:45]
Unknown
Bit of the Tay lurking or whatever. Yeah.
- [55:47]
Chandler
Even think about the letter announcing that she'd bought back the re recordings. It really stood out to me that she called it Rep tv. Like, she adopts the syntax of fans.
- [55:58]
Nora Princioti
Yeah.
- [55:58]
Chandler
Like, she didn't say reputation. Parentheses Taylor's version. She was like, I know, I know. What about Rep TV?
- [56:03]
Nora Princioti
She's still liking and commenting on TikTok. She's in it.
- [56:06]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [56:07]
Nora Princioti
Okay. We have so much we could discuss further. Unfortunately, we are out of time. Nora, this has been so fun. I mean, you're in New York, right?
- [56:13]
Chandler
Yes.
- [56:14]
Nora Princioti
Okay. Let's just do this again.
- [56:15]
Chandler
Let's do it again. Anytime.
- [56:16]
Nora Princioti
Fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on. Everyone go buy Hit Girls. It's available now by Nora Princioti. We'll have the link in our Spotify. We'll also have the link to your episode with Miley Cyrus and also to every single album. You're a hit podcast. So congratulations.
- [56:31]
Chandler
Thank you, guys. Thanks for having me. This is so much fun.
- [56:33]
Unknown
Of course.
- [56:34]
Nora Princioti
Bye. Bye.
- [56:36]
Unknown
This summer, Pluto TV is exploding with thousands of free movies. Summer of cinema is here. Feedback. Feel the explosive action all summer long with movies like Gladiator, Mission Impossible, Beverly Hills Cop, Good Burger, and Transformers. Dark of the Moon. Bring the action with you and stream for free from all your favorite devices. Pluto tv. Stream now, pay never now.
- [57:06]
Y' all know there's always more to the story. And on the Tony Brienne TV podcast, we break it all the way down. Whether it's viral moments currently shaking up on the Internet, Blake Lively has been acclaimed the American dream girl for quite some time now. And now it seems she's America's most hated pop culture phenomenon everyone's talking about or deep dives into stories that deserve much more attention. These black women are getting pregnant by people that we also consider to be lower than them. I'm here to give you the full picture, genuine insights and conversations mainstream media often overlooks. Some women are getting so many fillers and Botox injected into their face that they don't even realize how crazy they can potentially look. Here we explore different perspectives. To a lot of people, Kylie looks a lot older than she really is. And above all, we speak the truth. That is not okay. And that should get you registered as a offender. You must check out the Tony Brienne TV podcast. You don't want to miss what's coming next.