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- [00:00]
Ali Jackson
If you're a podcast host, listen up. This one's for you. My name is Ali Jackson. I'm the host of Finding Mr. Height, a dating and relationship podcast that I've been doing for four years now, sharing my positive and practical approach to dating that's built on my own life experience. And I wanted to share another experience that I've had, my secret behind monetizing my show. It's called Red Circle. And I was just telling my colleague about how much I love their platform. With Red Circle, not only am I getting a seamless hosting experience, but I also love the support I receive in ad sales. It's not just typical ad sales either. It's targeted opportunities based on my show and my life. And the platform is super simple. You just set your preferences, and Red Circle matches you with sponsors that align with your show. You can vet every opportunity, and their platform gives you great analytics. More recently, too, my Red Circle team has brought me opportunities outside of my podcast on social media to really augment the podcast partnerships. Bring them full circle. I just can't recommend them enough. If you want to give it a try, go to redcircle.com to get your free trial. That's redcircle.com for a free trial.
- [01:03]
Lauren
Well, well, well. On this very day, this very exciting episode of Pop Apologists, we come to you, everyone, from our brand new Pop Apologists studio.
- [01:15]
Chandler
This is a soft launch. It still needs some judging. The curtains need to be steamed, but here we are. And it feels so right.
- [01:24]
Lauren
It feels so right. So we. We did debut it on the Global Elites episode that came out on Monday. And yes, we could use a little more accessories. It was designed by the incredible Olivia from Mother's Daughter Design, and she is just such a genius. I love the tones. I love everything she put together.
- [01:44]
Chandler
Like, nothing about it feels brand new. And I mean that in, like, the best way, where it feels, like, perfectly timeless. Like, we could. This could just be, like, you know, another room in Gwyneth Paltrow's home.
- [01:53]
Lauren
This could be from the 18th century this year.
- [01:55]
Chandler
Yeah. Like, it just. Nothing about it feels like. I don't know, it just. It just feels evergreen, which is why it's going to be a great studio for us.
- [02:02]
Lauren
It feels right. So I'm so excited. It's so fun to have a little home. And we just want to say thank you to so much to everyone who listens, because truly, if you're listening to this show, you have made our dreams come true in this whole world, this.
- [02:17]
Chandler
Whole shebang, possible it's absolutely true. We would not be here. I would not be a full time pop apologist. The studio wouldn't exist. We wouldn't have these chairs or curtains.
- [02:26]
Lauren
Or lights or anything without the listeners currently tuning in.
- [02:30]
Chandler
Could not agree more. We love you. Thank you, guys. So today's episode is a full deep dive. But before we get to our full deep dive, you know, which everyone has been patiently waiting for, you know, with baited breath, we just want to talk a little bit about next week's schedule. Yes.
- [02:47]
Lauren
So next week is a very, very exciting episode.
- [02:51]
Chandler
Okay.
- [02:52]
Lauren
We have a very fun Global Elites episode with the one and only Courtney Grow.
- [02:57]
Chandler
Courtney Grow and I are recording an episode. We're going to be talking about family lore. We're going to be answering questions. I might be telling some embarrassing stories about her. I don't know. I don't want to over promise, but Courtney and I are recording while Lauren's out of town and it's going to be really great.
- [03:13]
Lauren
Also hack. If you're listening to this on Wednesday, this is the last day you can get a free trial of the Global Elites episodes.
- [03:20]
Chandler
So sign up now.
- [03:21]
Lauren
If you sign up today, you can get, you can listen to the Courtney episode because it's a two week free trial. After, after the clock strikes midnight on July 16, the free trial is done. We had to do it. It's a long story. So if you would like to get it on the free trial, listen to the episode with Courtney, go to popapologists.supportingcast.com and that is how you can sign up. Also you need to go to Spotify, click the, the link to one of the locked episodes and you can get the free trial through there.
- [03:52]
Chandler
Yeah. Sign up while it's hot before it goes. Another thing about next week, next week's regular, you know, main feed episode is going to be a little different. It's actually going to be several episodes.
- [04:02]
Lauren
Yes. We're so excited. So next week we're not doing our usual pop culture fair for the free episode. Instead we are dropping three episodes on different things. So my favorite, I'm not going to lie, is the episode with Jade Trow. So I am interviewing with Chandler, my favorite jewelry designer. So it's such a fun episode. We get into how to mix metals in a cool way, how to build your stack, build your collection. Her story is really, really inspiring. So I love that episode. Chandler talks with her wedding planner.
- [04:35]
Chandler
Yes. So I have Laura Gardner from Love Laur Planning, my wedding planner, the person who, you know, made my wedding dreams all come true. Ben and I sit down, we talk about, you know, all of the things from our wedding, current wedding trends. Just like anything you need to know if you're planning a New York City wedding and just a wedding in general. So, future brides, this one's for you.
- [04:54]
Lauren
So we have those two episodes and then we have a third episode, which is how to essentially launch a side hustle on social media. So it's all about monetizing an online presence, building your own business online, offering any pearls of wisdom we can offer. We are sitting down with Sam from Sauce Media Group, who is just a complete guru at all this stuff.
- [05:15]
Chandler
We worked with her for years.
- [05:17]
Lauren
She's amazing. She's incredible. It's a really, really good episode for all of the, you know, hustler girlies in the audience.
- [05:25]
Chandler
It's not for the men who care about the front facing camera. It's not for the men. I'm gonna stand by that. But yeah, like with next week's episodes, I should say, you know, there's going to be a lot. There's something for everyone. So if you, you know, if you're trying to build your Instagram social media presence, there's an episode for you. If you're a future bride, you know, if you're an aspiring bride, maybe you're not even in a relationship, but you want to know about what you should be anticipating when it comes to wedding stress. Actually, I don't recommend that. But if, you know, if that sounds good to you, there's an episode for you.
- [05:53]
Lauren
And if you're just in the market for some new diamonds, my favorite topic, as we know, you can tune into the app with J Trow. Okay, all that aside, though, let's get into the deep dive today, which is, wow, let me just say this is.
- [06:10]
Chandler
Going to be a sharp left. If you've ever experienced a sharp left on this podcast, this is going to be an even sharper left because we're, you know, we're just casually chatting about diamonds. A Jade Trow episode to now, you know, deep diving into Osama bin Laden.
- [06:25]
Lauren
The hunt for obl. One of my favorite topics. I love hearing all about this.
- [06:31]
Chandler
Like, you need to take your excitement down a couple notches.
- [06:34]
Lauren
I'm sorry, I'm riveted by this American story, Chandler. And what led to this? Also, you know, I don't.
- [06:41]
Chandler
You. You texted me out of the blue about doing this deep dive.
- [06:44]
Lauren
What led to it is there's a current Netflix documentary where they interview people who were in the room with Obama when the raid happened, a bad aad. Why are you laughing?
- [06:58]
Chandler
Just, I'm just looking at you and I've had a little bit of anxiety about this episode with like the way that we look and the way that we like dress and like literally the diamonds on your neck as we are just like covering, I don't know, Al Qaeda. Like it just, you know, it's just, it's Chandler, why couldn't we, why like literally why can't we talk about Al Qaeda? I don't know.
- [07:19]
Lauren
It's a story about great American heroes that deserves to be told and we're going to do so and we're, we're.
- [07:25]
Chandler
Going to tell the story and I'm, I'm not laughing. Nothing about this is actually funny.
- [07:29]
Lauren
Let's get to that. Let's get to it.
- [07:31]
Chandler
Okay, but I feel like there was a couple more caveats that I had to say. I don't know, I've, I Woke up.
- [07:35]
Lauren
At 4am this morning.
- [07:35]
Chandler
I've been anxious about this episode.
- [07:37]
Lauren
Well, I'm anxious that we are going to run out of time. So I think we need to just dive right in.
- [07:42]
Chandler
And I just also want to state really quick, I'm also excited to chat about this topic because I'm also a, you know, I'm totally fascinated by this. I mean, I wrote George Bush a letter thanking him for going to war when I was seven.
- [07:55]
Lauren
Yeah, for sure. I think you have like the deepest connection to this.
- [07:58]
Chandler
Yeah, I absolutely do. And he wrote me back. It was about, you know, kind of where they were with, with the hunt.
- [08:03]
Lauren
Maybe if we have time, you can read your letter.
- [08:06]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [08:06]
Lauren
At the end, you know, it's just.
- [08:07]
Chandler
Like if you didn't, if you aren't a child of, you know, that of this era, like who among us wasn't like so into George Bush during that, that moment?
- [08:16]
Lauren
That's all. Absolutely. Okay. Well, without further ado, Chandler and dear listeners, let's get into the hunt for Osama bin Laden. Today we are taking you inside the longest, most high stakes manhunt in modern history. One man, nearly 10 years. A 7,000 mile global effort that stretched from one capital to, to another, Washington D.C. in the U.S. to Islamabad in Pakistan.
- [08:44]
Chandler
Did you know the capital of Pakistan before we recorded this?
- [08:47]
Lauren
Of course not.
- [08:48]
Chandler
Yeah, same. I literally just learned that right now. But yes, Lauren, it involved the CIA, the National Security Agency and special operations forces with the help of foreign allies, geospatial modeling, and one brave Navy SEAL team. All of these agencies were in service of one Question. Where is Osama bin Laden?
- [09:06]
Lauren
This isn't just the story of a military raid, everyone. It's the story of obsession, intelligence failures, political pressure, and the unrelenting belief that the world's most wanted man could be found. What?
- [09:23]
Chandler
I'm just laughing at this Dateline special that we're doing.
- [09:28]
Lauren
It's a new style.
- [09:29]
Chandler
Yeah, this is a new style. So once again, everyone, sharp left. Hope you're anticipating this. Embracing. We're going to be going from the cave complexes of Taurus Bora to a walled suburban home in Abbottabad, Pakistan. And we're going to be following the full arc of the hunt on this deep dive today.
- [09:44]
Lauren
I'm Lauren.
- [09:45]
Chandler
We're reintrod. I'm Chandler.
- [09:48]
Lauren
And this is the pop apologist. Deep dive on the hunt for Osama bin Laden. What is with you today?
- [09:54]
Chandler
It's just like your hair, perfectly curled. It's the diamonds. Your makeup is, is flawless. You literally look stunningly gorgeous. And we're talking about the hunt for Osama bin Laden. But you know what? I would expect nothing less.
- [10:07]
Lauren
Yeah, thank you.
- [10:08]
Chandler
But let's. This isn't about you or, you know, your luck. This is about Osama. So let's start with him.
- [10:14]
Lauren
Let's start with the man himself. Osama bin Laden was born in 1957 in Rahad, Saudi Arabia, the 17th of what would be eventually more than 50 children.
- [10:25]
Chandler
So his father, Muhammad bin Laden, was a billionaire, a construction magnate who had contracts with the Saudi royal family. Basically, think of it like being, you know, in the Saudi version of the Rockefellers. And Osama was, you know, the shy, intelligent and devout son.
- [10:40]
Lauren
At age 10, he lost his father in a plane crash. But the family fortune was secure. Osama inherited millions, but he wasn't interested in yachts or parties. He was interested in God, Sharia law, and eventually jihad.
- [10:56]
Chandler
Jihad, which is an armed struggle with political rivals. It's like a holy war.
- [10:59]
Lauren
Yes.
- [11:00]
Chandler
He went to King Abdullahs's university where he studied economics and business administration. This is where he joined a Muslim Brotherhood where he met Abdullah Azzam, a Palestinian scholar who believed in global jihad and later became Osama's spiritual advisor.
- [11:14]
Lauren
So this is really interesting. I think that a lot of people don't know that Osama bin Laden was born in this wealthy family. He grew up in a, with, with a modern, like, with a modern family. Not everyone just like the show. If you look at pictures of him as a teenager with his family, they look just like they're any other family in the 70s. They wear normal Clothing, they're completely normal.
- [11:39]
Chandler
Not some, not like fringe, like living.
- [11:41]
Lauren
In the cliffs, you know, everyone is wearing normal clothing. And his mother actually gave an interview and she said that she described Osama as shy and academically capable who loved her very much. But, but when he went to college he was radicalized and brainwashed by people he met at the university. And she said he became a different man but he would never admit to her what he was doing because he loved her so much. So it is interesting to hear the like his family's interviews because they're very ashamed and they like, they don't co sign, you know, anything he was a part of.
- [12:17]
Chandler
Yeah, I think I, I read somewhere or heard that. I think he placed a call to his mom a couple days before 9, 11 and he said like in a, in a, this is unconfirmed I guess but you know, I, in a couple of days something big is going to happen and then you're not going to hear from me like for a while. Yeah, Anyway, so this is all in his early 20s, he goes to university.
- [12:38]
Lauren
And then, then came the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979. So this was a turning point. Osama bin Laden saw it as a religious duty to defend Muslim lands. He began funding and organizing fighters to join the Afghan resistance.
- [12:53]
Chandler
So something interesting here is that because this was during the Cold War, you know, the enemy of our enemy as in the US Was our friend. So bin Laden's men were actually part of the U. S backed muhajideen and they received weapons and money funneled in through Pakistan's intelligence services. This was known as Operation Cyclone.
- [13:11]
Lauren
Yeah, so because they were enemies of the Soviets, who were our enemies during the Cold War? The Afghans were our friends.
- [13:17]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [13:18]
Lauren
And we kind of had this alliance and we were sending them money and weapons. Osama was not just building a militia, he was building a network. In 1988 he formally created Al Qaeda, meaning the base. It was a database, a network of loyal fighters, contacts and donors.
- [13:35]
Chandler
I didn't know that like Al Qaeda began with him. I didn't know that that name like that, you know, that literal just, you know, branding was, was his brainchild. And like he was the beginning of that. I thought maybe that existed before him. So after the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan in early 1989, bin Laden returned to Saudi Arabia a war hero of jihad to some. But trouble was brewing up north.
- [13:58]
Lauren
In 1990, Iraq invaded Kuwait. The U. S. Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney offered American military assistance. And the king and prime minister of Saudi Arabia King Fahd accepted. Bin Laden had pled with the king not to depend on the U. S. Military, but was outraged when he complied.
- [14:15]
Chandler
Saudi Arabia is home to the two holiest Islamic cities, Mecca and Medina, and bin Laden saw it as a sacrilegious act to invite American infidels onto this holy ground. Although bin Laden offered to raise his own army to defend the kingdom, he was laughed off.
- [14:31]
Lauren
So he denounced the Saudi alliance with the United States and left.
- [14:34]
Chandler
This is where Osama bin Laden really gets upset with the Saudi, you know, government because they accepted this American help.
- [14:41]
Lauren
Yeah.
- [14:42]
Chandler
And he felt like that was just sacrilegious, like I said, for the, you know, Americans to be on, on their soil, you know, in this, like, holy place. And he had offered his own services, but they, you know, he was laughed off. Yeah.
- [14:55]
Lauren
So he kind of goes rogue.
- [14:57]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [14:58]
Lauren
He denounces the Saudi alliance with the United States and he leaves. He and his followers pack their bags and relocate to Sudan. In 1996, he issued a fatwa, a non binding legal ruling on a point of Islamic law declaring jihad fight or struggle against America. The fatwa was titled declaration of war against the Americans occupying the land of the two holy places.
- [15:22]
Chandler
So it literally says in it, quote, expel the infidels from the Arabian peninsula, kill Americans and their allies, civilian and military.
- [15:31]
Lauren
So then in 1998, two years later, a second fatwa. This time he wasn't subtle. The quote, the ruling to kill the Americans and their allies, civilians and military is an individual duty for every Muslim. This was not a threat. This was a declaration of war.
- [15:48]
Chandler
And just months later, US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed nearly simultaneously. Over 200 people died, thousands were injured. And these attacks really shocked the world.
- [16:00]
Lauren
The next year, in June 1999, the FBI responded by putting bin Laden on its 10 most wanted list. He was charged with the murder of U. S. Citizens abroad. But it was just the beginning of a long list of criminal charges.
- [16:13]
Chandler
Around this time, the CIA launched a special unit, Alex station. Its job one thing, find bin Laden. Alex station was a small team of mostly analysts and some former field agents and was involved in intelligence gathering, planning search and destroy missions, and developing strategies to counter al Qaeda.
- [16:33]
Ben
I just love summertime in New York.
- [16:36]
Chandler
Even though it's hot, the city just.
- [16:38]
Ben
Slows down and you can sit outside, enjoy the summer air, sip something cold and just be with friends. Ben and I have been using our, you know, little balcony non stop. And our new obsession is the taklia reclining zero gravity chair from wayfair it's super comfy. It has a built in cushion and just, you know, leans all the way back so you can really relax. We've spent so many nights relaxing out there, eating dinner, watching the sky, watching the sunset, and just pretending we're on a luxury vacation.
- [17:10]
Chandler
Wayfair made it so easy.
- [17:12]
Ben
Fast free shipping, even on something bulky like patio furniture. And their outdoor section has so much. Okay. Whether it's lawn games, grills, dining sets, or umbrellas, they've got everything you need for backyard hangs or tiny balcony escapes. Shop, outdoor furniture, grills, lawn games, and.
- [17:28]
Chandler
Way more for way less.
- [17:29]
Ben
Head to Wayfair.com right now to explore a huge outdoor selection. That's W-A-Y-F A I R.com Wayfair Every Style, Every Home. This is an ad by BetterHelp. As a podcaster and entrepreneur, I wear.
- [17:45]
Chandler
A lot of hats.
- [17:46]
Ben
And honestly, some days it feels like they're all on fire, all the plates are spinning, they're all about to drop. And I just know that burnout is a real thing. And it totally makes sense. I mean, 61% of the global workforce is reporting higher than normal stress levels.
- [18:03]
Chandler
We can't all take the summer off.
- [18:05]
Ben
But we can take small steps to.
- [18:06]
Chandler
Protect our mental health.
- [18:08]
Ben
For me, it's taking a walk outside and, you know, just taking a beat to unplug for a few minutes midday.
- [18:15]
Chandler
And also therapy. Therapy is such a powerful tool.
- [18:18]
Ben
It's not just for trauma. It helps with boundaries, perspective, and actually showing up for your life in a better headspace. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Our listeners get 10% off their first month@betterhelp.com Popapologists that's better. H E L P.com Popapologists Al Qaeda.
- [18:45]
Lauren
So get this back in December of 1998, the CIA actually warned President Clinton that Al Qaeda was gearing up for attacks on US soil. And not just any attacks. They were reportedly training people to hijack planes. So this was in 1998, three years before September 11th, that the CIA was warning President Clinton about this.
- [19:06]
Chandler
But inside the US government, the warning signs were drowned out. Bureaucracy. The interagency rivalry and legal confusion were to blame. And then came 2000. The USS Cole bombing. 17 sailors killed in Yemen in the deadliest attack against a United States naval vessel since 1987. And guess who was culpable? Al Qaeda. Again.
- [19:26]
Lauren
Still, there was no capture, no retaliation. And then in 2001, FBI agents noticed something strange. Foreign men with ties to Osama bin Laden were receiving flight training at schools in the US and abroad, which is so chilling.
- [19:42]
Chandler
So in July of 2001. July 2001. So just two months, FBI agent Kenneth Williams sent a letter it's now, you know, referred to as the infamous Phoenix Memo, urging higher ups to investigate civil aviation schools worldwide. But it was ignored. And this is what the memo says. The purpose of this communication is to advise the bureau and New York of the possibility of a coordinated effort by Osama bin Laden to send students to the United States to attend civil aviation universities and colleges. Phoenix has observed an inordinate number of individuals of investigative interest who are attending or route or who have attended civil aviation universities and colleges in the state of Arizona. Yeah.
- [20:21]
Lauren
So it's really chilling to know that basically the FBI was tipped off about this. And what it makes me realize, or appreciate, I think, even more is there's a lot of, like, crazy conspiracy theories about just, like, the elites and the things they do and like, their. Their networks and like that. They're just very organized in their malevolence. You know, it's QAnon.
- [20:44]
Chandler
Right. Yeah.
- [20:45]
Lauren
I just think that, like, it's very clear that these are actually bureaucracies trying to do the right thing that just don't really. They don't have enough to go after every single lead. Right. Like, they're only. They're only people.
- [20:59]
Chandler
Right.
- [20:59]
Lauren
And they only can do so much. And so it just makes me even more skeptical of people who would say that there's like, these vast, very organized networks that are trying to deceive everyone.
- [21:09]
Chandler
Right. Like, so much of this is because of red tape or because of just, like, inefficiency.
- [21:15]
Lauren
Yeah. Just lack of manpower.
- [21:16]
Chandler
Lack of manpower to investigate thoroughly every single claim. I mean, also, you know, okay, if these individuals of interest were going to aviation school, what are they going to do? Ground all the planes? And it's like hindsight is 20 20, we can say, like, oh, they were clearly planning some type of, you know, air attack.
- [21:31]
Lauren
Right. Well, I think if they took it. If they really took it seriously, though, they could track all those people.
- [21:36]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [21:36]
Lauren
And maybe notice when they all were checking in on the same day or something like that.
- [21:40]
Chandler
Right, right, right.
- [21:41]
Lauren
But this memo was just not just.
- [21:43]
Chandler
Like, never investigated, experienced something like this before.
- [21:46]
Lauren
Right, exactly.
- [21:47]
Chandler
Just like, of such, you know, flying was a completely different situation before.
- [21:51]
Lauren
No. And it's absolutely insane for me to be like, well, if we could have.
- [21:55]
Chandler
Just, like, you know, put an air.
- [21:56]
Lauren
Tag on them, you're right. Hindsight is 20 20, so. And then the unthinkable happened. September 11, 2001. Four hijacked planes hit the Twin Towers and the Pentagon in a field in Pennsylvania. I just want to say, like, you know, as we're discussing this, we just don't want to not have a moment to recognize the loss of life. Not just the loss of life, but the families of people who lost their lives. Just the ripple effect of thousands of people who are victims of 9, 11 and then the many, many, many thousands of. Of people who lost their loved ones and a nation in grief. Right. It was just the. There's just no way to overstate how horrific this event was.
- [22:43]
Chandler
Yeah. I mean, so much to say, I think, you know, I remember the morning of 9 11. I remember. You know, I think everybody, everybody has a story, but I. I just think that it changed forever the way everyone thinks in this country and the way that we feel safe or not safe.
- [23:01]
Lauren
Right.
- [23:02]
Chandler
And now living in New York, realizing how like, compact and compressed the city is, the idea of something of this scale happening is so unbelievably terrifying. And it's just. I just. The trauma and like, just what. What the people who were here that day saw and suffered is yeah, it's honestly, like, kind of impossible to put into words.
- [23:26]
Lauren
And so, yeah, one thing I think that is always something good to remember is the unity that came after. So it was really the only time that I can remember that as a nation, we were just so strongly knit together and finally, like the party fighting took a back seat to really having this common enemy and having all witnessed and been traumatized by this experience. And it's good to know that that does exist, especially as times seem to get increasingly more divisive. But it's just sad that it takes something like that, something so horrible to actually bring about that experience.
- [24:07]
Chandler
And it's. You know, I do feel like now tragedies still happen in the United States. Not to this scale, but. And now I feel like they do. They can become so politicized and divisive so quickly. Is now the best time for me to read my letter? Because I will say this is kind of the state of mind I was in as I got out my crayons and paper.
- [24:29]
Lauren
Sure, pull it up if you have it. If you have it handy, everyone. Chandler is reading this letter not because she is proud of it, not because she still holds these sentiments dear.
- [24:39]
Chandler
Look, I have friends across all the aisles and everyone finds it to be absolutely hysterical. Hysterical.
- [24:45]
Lauren
Also, I want to recognize that we're talking about some very serious things and then potentially also bringing in some moments of levity. And that's to just not have an episode that's gravely serious the entire time. But I, you know, I just want to recognize the, the delicate line we are attempting to walk. We do not want to seem insensitive whatsoever.
- [25:07]
Chandler
Okay, everyone, the year is 2003. It's February 15th. When I'm writing, this says, Dear Mr. President, I hope you will stay president. I appreciate you supporting our troops. I am proud to be an American and to live in such a wonderful place. I am happy to be free. You are a wonderful president. I am proud of your decision to go to war.
- [25:29]
Lauren
Signed.
- [25:29]
Chandler
Sincerely, Chandler Bledsoe.
- [25:31]
Lauren
7 year old Chandler Bledsoe. He needed your support.
- [25:34]
Chandler
Actually, I think I was probably. If this was 2003, I was 8.
- [25:38]
Lauren
I was of age, age of accountability. And you know what? I think he appreciated your support.
- [25:42]
Chandler
Well, he wrote me back.
- [25:43]
Lauren
What did he say?
- [25:44]
Chandler
Dear Chandler, I think he brought me back a year later. You know, the staffers, they were busy. Dear Chandler, thank you for your kind words of support. I'm honored to have the responsibility of serving as president of this great country. You have an important responsibility to become a good citizen. I encourage you to study hard and make the right choices and help others. By setting high standards, you can achieve your dreams. Mrs. Bush joins me in sending our best wishes. May God bless you and may God continue to bless America. Sincerely, George W. Bush.
- [26:14]
Lauren
That's really impressive. He got back to fan mail.
- [26:16]
Chandler
I know, I know. No, this is absolutely a staffer also. I will. I'll post a photo of this, but he sent back a glossy photo of himself, which is kind of hilarious.
- [26:25]
Lauren
Did he or did mom print that out? So this letter was framed with the picture of George Bush. Chandler.
- [26:31]
Chandler
In my bedroom.
- [26:31]
Lauren
Chandler's letter to him. Chandler, you also drew him an image.
- [26:35]
Chandler
Oh, I drew an image of us underneath an American flag. I had a crush on him.
- [26:39]
Lauren
You and George Bush underneath an American flag?
- [26:42]
Chandler
Yes.
- [26:43]
Lauren
That is the most unhinged part about this whole precedent. That's insane.
- [26:48]
Chandler
I mean, why wouldn't I draw a picture of myself and George Bush underneath an American flag? Sunny skies.
- [26:53]
Lauren
I think it would just be a little bit more normal if it was like you and your dad, but you and George Bush are just hanging on.
- [26:59]
Chandler
I kind of wanted George Bush to be my dad at that. At that point in time, look, I was just kind of like enamored with the guy. I was just like, that was A moment of just strong, you know, patriotism across our nation. And so I wanted, I was fangirling, yeah.
- [27:12]
Lauren
And George Bush, I'm sorry, he slapped, in a lot of ways he had a real Texan charm. Right now he paints, which is a beautiful career, honestly.
- [27:21]
Chandler
George Bush makes, I think he watercolors. George Bush makes, you know, our present day politics. Like he, he makes them all look like clowns, like literal, like we're at the circus compared to him.
- [27:32]
Lauren
We did not know how good we had it on some level.
- [27:35]
Chandler
So getting back to 9, 11, and you know, just the seriousness, obviously, you know, a lot of people died. I think the official death toll was 2977. And just the world completely changed overnight.
- [27:48]
Lauren
In the days after President George W. Bush said the following.
- [27:52]
President Obama
Osama bin Laden is just one person. He is representative of a, of networks of people who are, who absolutely have made their cause to defeat the freedoms that we take, that we understand and we will not allow them to do so. I want him, I want justice. And there's an old poster out west as I recall, that said wanted dead or alive.
- [28:21]
George W. Bush
Are we ever, ever going to find bin Laden?
- [28:25]
President Obama
Yeah, of course, absolutely. You're confident based on. Because we got a lot of people looking for him, a lot of assets out there and he can't run forever. Just like the people who allegedly were involved in the East African bombings.
- [28:43]
Chandler
A.
- [28:44]
President Obama
Couple of them were brought to justice. Did we ever, did we ever come close? I don't know. I can't answer that. You don't know or you really don't know? I'm not trying to hide anything.
- [28:59]
Chandler
So bin Laden initially denied involvement, but then in a 2006 video he says, quote, I am the one in charge of the 19 brothers. I was responsible for entrusting the 19 brothers with the raids.
- [29:10]
Lauren
In response, the American government mobilized and launched the War on Terror. Congress passed the Authorization for Use of Military Force and US troops invaded Afghanistan and, and the manhunt officially began.
- [29:22]
Chandler
But where exactly was Osama bin Laden? This was still a total mystery.
- [29:27]
Lauren
So it's late 2001. The Twin Towers have fallen. The US has launched Operation Enduring Freedom. Troops are on the ground in Afghanistan and the CIA, they're hot on bin Laden's tail.
- [29:39]
Chandler
So in those early months there was like a lot of hope and momentum, real hope. You know, intelligence pointed to this rugged remote area in eastern Afghanistan, Tora Bora.
- [29:47]
Lauren
Picture snow capped peaks, massive cave complexes, narrow goat paths and miles of terrain so hostile that even GPS didn't work properly. Bin Laden had been building bunkers there since the Soviet war.
- [30:00]
Chandler
But the CIA believed that they had him. Local warlords told them he was there. Intercept supported it. Even Bin Laden's own voice was picked up on radio traffic from the mountains. It was happening.
- [30:10]
Lauren
So this is December 2001. The US commits to a massive assault. But here is the twist. Most of the ground fighting is being done not by American soldiers, but by Afghan militias.
- [30:21]
Chandler
That's right, the CIA paramilitary officers on the ground were working with local commanders. And while some were loyal, others were more interested in tribal politics or in cutting backroom deals.
- [30:31]
Lauren
Meanwhile, Bin Laden was moving. Always a step ahead. He used runners, lookouts, and the terrain itself. By the time US bombs hit one side of a ridge, he'd already crossed to the other side.
- [30:44]
Chandler
And remember, this wasn't just any battlefield. These were the White Mountains, the same region that helped Muhadeen defeat the Soviets. It was home turf.
- [30:51]
Lauren
Still, we had the tech advantage. Drones flew overhead. Thermobaric bombs collapsed caves. Psyops units dropped leaflets offering millions in reward money. The CIA even jammed radio signals and blasted messages in Pashto urging surrender.
- [31:06]
Chandler
And then there was the moment. In mid December, intelligence picked up chatter that Bin Laden was in a cave just beyond a ridge. They knew his location.
- [31:15]
Lauren
But here is the kicker. The US didn't have enough troops on the ground to seal off every escape route. Delta Force was ready to go, but they were waiting on Pentagon approval to deploy in large numbers.
- [31:27]
Chandler
Some within the military, like General Tommy Franks, worried about getting bogged down in a long guerrilla fight. The thinking was let the Afghans do the heavy lifting.
- [31:36]
Lauren
But that decision proved costly, because one night, in the chaos of retreating fighters, a group slipped silently through the snow, crossed into Pakistan, and disappeared.
- [31:47]
Chandler
Among them, Osama bin Laden, injured thin, but very much so, alive.
- [31:53]
Lauren
The US had come within a few hundred yards of capturing him, but the lack of boots on the ground, internal hesitations and reliance on fickle allies let him escape.
- [32:05]
Chandler
So back in Washington, frustration boiled over. Senator Joe Biden, then chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, said, we blew it. CIA insiders were furious. One agent reportedly punched a wall.
- [32:17]
Lauren
Cofer Black, the CIA counterterrorism chief, later testified, we had him in our sights. We had the intelligence. We didn't have the trigger pulled.
- [32:26]
Chandler
So bin Laden vanished. And for the next several years, he was a total ghost.
- [32:30]
Lauren
But let's be clear. He wasn't just hiding in caves. He was rebuilding, writing, recording videos, inspiring a new generation of fighters. The longer he stayed free, the stronger his legend Grew.
- [32:43]
Chandler
And back in the US People were starting to ask, how is this guy still alive?
- [32:47]
Lauren
The CIA kept searching. They interviewed detainees, tracked financial movements, tapped cell towers. But nothing was concrete. Every trail ends in silence.
- [32:59]
Chandler
At one point, the Bush administration even tried an outsourcing plan, paying tribal informants to find him. It led to dozens of false tips, dead ends, and one hilarious story where a random goat herder was paraded as the guy.
- [33:11]
Lauren
There was also tensions inside the CIA. Alex Station, the team focused on bin Laden was frustrated. They felt like support was slipping. The focus was drifting toward Iraq, towards Saddam Hussein. So Osama has vanished into thin air. After a long stretch of time, there's nothing, no videos, no intercepted calls, no sightings, just a ghost.
- [33:35]
Chandler
I also want to say here that, you know, the US military, there's a lot of money that is put into spending on defense and to having the best technology for defense and for military stuff. And you know, we had the best technology when we knew where he was, you know, in Tora Bora. And that did not get us very far because we didn't literally have the boots on the ground. And so something, as we continue, continue, you know, telling this story that we'll see is that what actually led to the success finding Osama bin Laden was, was less about, you know, having the best technology and more about like trade craft and people who like, were really good at what they did and like just honestly like good spies.
- [34:17]
Lauren
Yeah, and I think that I also just sheer human intelligence, not necessarily drones, but people who are able to put the pieces together.
- [34:26]
Chandler
Yes, totally. Yeah. So Osama Bin Laden, he's totally vanished. We haven' heard anything. And back at Langley, the frustration is growing. Billions of dollars are being spent. New teams are formed, but every direct lead on Bin Laden fizzles out. It's like he never existed.
- [34:40]
Lauren
Inside Alex station, the CIA's bin Laden unit, a small group of analysts starts working on a different angle. They ask a simple but game changing question. If we can't find him, then who is keeping him hidden?
- [34:53]
Chandler
Right? Like no matter what this guy is, is hidden away and he's got to be, you know, receiving supplies news from the outside world, like somehow. And they keep hearing one name, or rather one alias, Abu Ahmed Al Kuwaiti. It pops up again and again in detainee interrogations.
- [35:12]
Lauren
Al Kuwaiti isn't a real name. It's a kunya or a nickname. Abu means father of and Al Kuwaiti means the Kuwaiti. But the context matters. So he's not just some guy. He's described as bin Laden's most trusted courier.
- [35:27]
Chandler
And I think one thing that you see throughout the. The Netflix series and also in Zero Dark Thirty, everybody knew who this guy was. Like, everyone who was interviewed and tortured, like, knew about his. Knew this name. And so that's what really, like, proved to the these special agents that, like, this guy was important. Everybody knew who he was. And then there was one guy who was really high up who denied ever knowing him, which was like, that's pretty. Like, that's pretty crazy that he's denying knowing him. He must be important.
- [35:56]
Lauren
Exactly, exactly.
- [35:58]
Chandler
So this is where human intelligence becomes critical. Over the years, dozens of Al Qaeda operatives are captured. Some at Guantanamo, some at black sites overseas. Many refuse to talk, Others lie. But a pattern starts to emerge.
- [36:10]
Lauren
Detainees say Al Kuaidi was the person who delivered messages from bin Laden. He knew his whereabouts. He was close, and crucially, he knew Osama's whereabouts. He was close, and crucially, he was still alive.
- [36:24]
Chandler
Now, one of the biggest breaks came from the capture of Hassan Ghul, an Al Qaeda facilitator, in 2004. He casually mentions a courier used by bin Laden named Abu Ahmed Al Kuwaiti. The name matches other reports. So basically, they're just getting more confirmation from other people that this name, this, like, nickname is like, is connected to a person who is Osama's courier.
- [36:45]
Lauren
So this gets to the part that Chandler was just discussing. So the mastermind of 911 was a man named Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, and he was extremely evasive about the Kuwaiti courier. That, in CIA terms, is a tell.
- [37:00]
Chandler
Yeah, like, why are you. Absolutely not saying anything about this person, who we are. We have all this confirmation of that they're real. So he was under intense interrogation, torture, and yet when asked about this courier, he got totally vague. He denied that he existed, and that, you know, really made analysts sit up and think, why are you lying unless you're protecting something?
- [37:21]
Lauren
So at this point, the CIA is convinced the courier is the key, but they don't have a real name, no photo. That's crazy. They don't have a name, they don't have a photo, no address, just an alias.
- [37:33]
Chandler
This is where the NSA gets involved.
- [37:36]
Ben
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- [37:51]
Chandler
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Chandler
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- [38:15]
Adam Rippon
Hi, I'm Adam Rippon and this is Intrusive Thoughts, the podcast where I finally say the stuff out loud that's been living rent free in my head for years. From dumb decisions to awkward moments I probably should have kept to myself. Nothing's off limits. Yes, I'm talking about the time I. I lost my phone mid flight and still haven't truly emotionally recovered from that. There might be too many sound effects. I've been told to chill. Will I? Unclear, but if you've ever laid awake at night cringing at something you said five years ago, congratulations, you found your people. Intrusive Thoughts with Adam Rippon is available now wherever you get your podcasts.
- [38:54]
Chandler
In 2007, they intercept a call placed inside Pakistan. One voice uses the alias Al Kuwaiti in a familiar way. This is a breakthrough.
- [39:02]
Lauren
The voice is matched to a man the CIA believes is Ibrahim Saeed Ahmed, a Pakistani national of Kuwaiti origin. The match comes from years of cross referencing passport records, voice samples and known associates.
- [39:17]
Chandler
And this is where CIA tradecraft ramps up. They don't just listen, they follow. Over the next two years, CIA ground teams track Ibrahim's movements. No phones, no electronics, but he's careful, which makes them more suspicious. So they literally just follow this guy.
- [39:33]
Lauren
Then in mid 2010, his car leads them to a house. Not in a cave, not in tribal territory, but in Abbottabad, a sleepy upper middle class city near Pakistan's military base.
- [39:47]
Chandler
So this house is pretty crazy. And I'm sure we've all seen, you know, the renderings and the photos of it, photos and videos. It's three stories tall, 12 foot outer walls that are topped with barbed wire. Not exactly a design choice a lot of people make. No, there's no Internet lines, there's no phone lines. Trash is only ever burned. It's never put out on the street. There are no visitors, no deliveries, no mail. In fact they even ran some like, you know, sting. I don't know if that's the proper term but they ran some like staying operations where they had a doctor go over with like vaccines and like the doctor went in with vaccines and you know, for the, for the kids to like that were living at the house and they were like absolutely not. Like nobody was coming or going.
- [40:33]
Lauren
Yeah, and I think that it's just like really bears repeating that. It's very strange. In 2000, I believe it was 2010. Yes, in 2010, to live in a home with no Internet, no phone, no way to contact the outside world, that is just utterly bizarre. And then also to be burning your trash.
- [40:52]
Chandler
They talk about this in the documentary. You know, it was like, either okay, some high powered drug dealer lives here or it's Osama bin Laden or it's like a terrorist. But once again, why would a high power drug dealer, like, not have Internet?
- [41:06]
Lauren
Right?
- [41:06]
Chandler
Like, it's like if you're somebody who is doing something illegal, you're still going to have access to the Internet.
- [41:11]
Lauren
Right.
- [41:11]
Chandler
In order to run your schemes.
- [41:13]
Lauren
Mm. So the clincher is that Ibrahim the courier and his brother live there, but they never go to the second or third floors. Someone else is living above them, someone they're serving, but no one ever sees him.
- [41:32]
Chandler
CIA analysts are stunned. They call it the million dollar compound. Why would two men build a fortress for themselves and then never use most of it?
- [41:41]
Lauren
They park a drone overhead. Days pass, then weeks. Finally, they spot something strange. A tall man over six feet, walking the courtyard in slow, repeated laps. He's visible for seconds at a time, always at the same hour, and he never leaves.
- [41:59]
Chandler
So also, you know, they can't actually see, get this complete view of him. Like the patio is covered, there's a tall wall. They can never get a clear picture of who this.
- [42:10]
Lauren
Right. And there's something overhead.
- [42:12]
Chandler
Yeah, yeah, it's like, I think it's, I think there's like a covering, like it's. Yeah, like a covering that extends the majority of the way over, you know, until you hit the wall, I guess. It's very interesting. If you go to the spy museum in Washington D.C. which I've done in the last three years, as one does, there is like a whole, there's like a model of like the, of the. London's house. Yeah. Really, that was actually, that was the most fascinating part of the, of the museum to me. But yeah, so they, they don't really, they cannot get a clear visual of who this person is, but they call him the Pacer. And based on the height, the gait and the patterns, analysts believe it could be bin Laden.
- [42:50]
Lauren
But they can't be sure. They don't have a face, they have no voice. And this is where the internal CIA debate gets intense. Some say there's a 60% chance it's him. Others say it's 80%. One analyst insists we may never get another shot like this.
- [43:06]
Chandler
Meanwhile, President Obama is being briefed in these top secret situation room meetings. The question Keeps coming up. How do we know it's bin Laden? And the answer is always the same. We don't. But the courier makes it likely because.
- [43:18]
Lauren
Al Kuwaiti, AKA Ibrahim said Ahmed was never just some delivery boy. He was the guy. If he's protecting someone this carefully, it's not a random cleric. It's someone who commands loyalty. Someone like bin Laden.
- [43:34]
Chandler
That's interesting. It's like it's not, it's like someone that he has like true devotion to. Like it's not just like he's some bad guy who's being paid to like, you know, to take care of Osama bin Laden. Like it's deeper than that.
- [43:46]
Lauren
Yeah, well, and also if you buy a house and then you don't live in the nicest part of it, you know, like something strange.
- [43:52]
Chandler
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [43:54]
Lauren
At some point logic takes over and they say this guy just has to be Osama bin Laden.
- [43:59]
Chandler
The CIA puts it all in a memo. They name the operation Neptune Spirit. The President reads it and the final judgment is chillingly simple. This is our best lead since Tora Bora.
- [44:07]
Lauren
Alright, it's spring 2011. The CIA has tracked bin Laden's courier to this fortress like compound in Abbottabad. Surveillance is tight, intel is thin and the house has no digital footprint.
- [44:18]
Chandler
Every move is analog, every light bulb is suspicious.
- [44:21]
Lauren
The President has a choice to make. A B2 stealth bomber could flatten the compound. But that comes with problems. One, you just don't get a body in that situation so you can't prove that you got him. And two, you're killing, you're going to be killing innocent civilians.
- [44:35]
Chandler
So Obama green lights a surgical strike. It'll be a raid. No airstrike, no deniability. And if it goes south, we're risking a diplomatic meltdown with Pakistan and a live action homeland reboot in real life.
- [44:48]
Lauren
So true. So now Seal Team 6 enters. They're elite, they're covert. They're trained for the kind of operation where failure means you don't come home. They start rehearsing at a full scale. So they built for them in North Carolina a full scale replica of the compound. This is what's so crazy about it is so they didn't know what the inside looked like obviously because they only had surveillance of the outside. So basically they every day they like take it down and rebuild it inside so it has different configurations.
- [45:21]
Chandler
Well, and the other reason why they took it down every night was because they didn't want anyone to like see that what they were doing and to tip anybody Off. And that was like another reason why, like, they had to be so careful about trying to get confirmation that Osama bin Laden was in there. Like they couldn't put a camera in the tree. Like they, if they were to tip him off, they were going to lose their best. Right.
- [45:44]
Lauren
And again, if you go back to Toravora, like when they actually had him in their sights, they just did not want a repeat of that.
- [45:50]
Chandler
Right, right. So back to, you know, the replica site. One SEAL later said it was like training to break into a haunted house while trying not to wake up the ghost.
- [45:59]
Lauren
The code name for bin Laden is Geronimo. The plan is laid out. They'll fly from Jalalabad in two custom modified stealth Blackhawks. No Pakistani approval, no backup, no margin for error.
- [46:12]
Chandler
Yeah, so this is another really important part is that, you know, this house, we mentioned this earlier, but it was next to basically the West Point of Pakistan. And they thought that actually was pretty interesting that, that, that, that this house was literally there. That was maybe strategic on, you know, Osama bin Laden's end. But that meant that them, you know, coming into Pakistani airspace without giving them any sort of a heads up or approving this meant that they could get shot down. Yeah, totally, totally. And it was a 90 minute flight.
- [46:40]
Lauren
From Jalalabad to Afghanistan, I believe, I believe it was Afghan, like, airspace that they were just. So they needed to get back into.
- [46:48]
Chandler
Yeah, yeah. But it was like, it wasn't just like, okay, this is a 10 minute, completely, you know, like white knuckling helicopter ride. There was 90 minutes.
- [46:56]
Lauren
No, absolutely.
- [46:57]
Chandler
Start to finish.
- [46:57]
Lauren
The bravery of these men. When you read it. When you not read. But when you watch this documentary, it's just so wild to hear the man interviewed who actually took out Osama bin Laden because he talks about, like saying goodbye to his kids and how like, you know, you're just strained to potentially not be coming home. So anyway, it's just these people are so brave.
- [47:19]
Chandler
Do you want to know why it's called Seal Team 6 also?
- [47:21]
Lauren
No.
- [47:21]
Chandler
Because I don't.
- [47:22]
Lauren
Oh, yes, I do.
- [47:23]
Chandler
Okay. I wasn't, I did not care about your response. I was going to tell you anyway. I don't think there's Seal Team 4 or 5 or 3 maybe, but I think there might be Seal Team 1 and 2. But like, that was like, that's meant to just throw off whoever like, is maybe being attacked by Seal Team 6. It's like, well, where are the other five?
- [47:40]
Lauren
Oh, interesting.
- [47:41]
Chandler
You know, isn't that kind of like. Yeah, it's kind of crazy. But Anyway, back to May 1, 2011. A Sunday. It's 11:00pm local time. The helicopters lift off and it's go time.
- [47:51]
Lauren
Flying low and fast, the choppers reach the compound in under 90 minutes. One drops down perfectly, but the other, it catches a freak downdraft and crashes inside the walls. No one is seriously hurt, but the noise wakes up the neighborhood.
- [48:06]
Chandler
Yeah, I mean, these are silent helicopters. In fact, I was asking a friend of mine who has like more experience in this area, like, like, how quiet are these helicopter helicopters? Are they like whisper, you know, like an air conditioning unit and it's like. No, they're not. They're not actually quieter. Oh, I mean, I think like they're quieter when it comes to radar. It's not that, like they make no sound.
- [48:27]
Lauren
Oh, interesting.
- [48:27]
Chandler
I don't know if you knew that, but I was like, I was literally thinking they were like invisibility cloak helicopters or something, but I think they're just quiet in the sense that they're really undetectable to radar.
- [48:36]
Lauren
Oh, interesting.
- [48:37]
Chandler
Yeah. So anyway, so when this helicopter does literally crash, and one thing about this crash is that basically because of these high walls, it gets stuck in this type of vortex with like, with the blade and like the wind spinning. I don't know, I think maybe it was a windy night. No clue. I don't understand physics or weather, but they basically make the decision to basically crash the helicopter. And so nobody is like hurt in that and the crashing of it, but it then wakes up the entire neighborhood.
- [49:04]
Lauren
Right.
- [49:05]
Chandler
So basically, you know, imagine this. Suddenly a black helicopter falls from the sky into your yard. And, you know, it's middle of the night. What are you going to do?
- [49:15]
Lauren
The seals adapt instantly. They breach the walls, enter the ground floor and begin sweeping room by room. On the second floor, they encounter Bin Laden's adult son, Khalid. He's armed and they shoot and kill him.
- [49:27]
Chandler
Then comes the third floor, the Pacer's room. They storm it. Two women scream. One is used as a human shield. In the chaos, a SEAL fires two rounds. One to the chest, one to the head.
- [49:37]
Lauren
Bin Laden is dead. Just like that. After a decade of searching, hiding, bombing and obsessing, it all ends in under 40 minutes. In a dim hallway of a rented.
- [49:47]
Chandler
Compound, the SEAL radios in for God and country. Geronimo Ekia. Enemy killed in action.
- [49:54]
Lauren
They bag the body, grab hard drives, journals, USBs, everything in reach. The man may be dead, but the intel war certainly is not.
- [50:02]
Chandler
Meanwhile, back in D.C. the White House is full of Suspense. In fact, actually we find out in the documentary that Obama was so, like, you know, anxious about everything that he actually went upstairs to go play cards. That was like something he did with. He would play hearts or something whenever he was anxious.
- [50:17]
Lauren
So kind of tender.
- [50:19]
Chandler
I know. It is quite tender. Oh. So Obama, Biden, Hillary and the staff are all watching this unfold in real time. You know, they're getting reports from the other commander who's, you know, Right. In the Middle East.
- [50:29]
Lauren
Also, something interesting is you just imagine, like, basically all the lights are on in the neighborhood. People are walking out of their houses, they're walking towards the compound, and again, they have that military air base that's right nearby. Like, these people need to get the fuck out.
- [50:45]
Chandler
Well, yeah, like they have an hour to get home. Right.
- [50:49]
Lauren
And in that airspace, they could be shot down.
- [50:50]
Chandler
Right, right.
- [50:51]
Lauren
Anyway, but they still spend time grabbing as much as they can. By 3am local time, it is done. The seals extract, they blow up the crashed helicopter with thermite. That way that there's no intelligence, you know, that's like left with that technology. And then they, they fly out.
- [51:10]
Chandler
They fly the body to Bagram, then to the USS Carl Vinson in the Arabian Sea. A DNA test is run. It's him. 99.9 match. No conspiracy. No, I think it was a body double. It's the real deal. It's Osama bin Laden.
- [51:24]
Lauren
One thing that also is just, I think, interesting in the documentary, and maybe this is a re. Repeat comment, but just when they fly up, I think Obama said, like, don't tell me. I want to just know when they are in. In Afghan airspace, like when they've let. When they're finally out of Pakistani airspace and there was a chase, didn't they?
- [51:44]
Chandler
Oh, I know that. Like, I don't know if it was like a. I'm not entirely sure, but I know that, like, at some point, like, radar comes on.
- [51:51]
Lauren
The Pakistanis, they know.
- [51:52]
Chandler
It's not like they did it all under their nose.
- [51:53]
Lauren
And to my recollection, the Pakistanis do fly up and start following.
- [51:59]
Chandler
Yes, totally. Yes, they do. They do.
- [52:01]
Lauren
So Osama's body is washed, it's wrapped in a white shroud and buried at Sea. Within 24 hours, Islamic custom is observed. Alban, albeit with a Navy chaplain officiating. And I think that one of the things that they just really didn't want was to bury him anywhere on land where a shrine could be built and where people could travel to go to, you know, they wanted. That was the, The Strategy and the reasoning behind burying him at sea.
- [52:27]
Chandler
Yeah, yeah. You know, to not let this monster of a person, you know, have like a. Yeah. Shrine. So then on that very day, you know, back in the United States, President Obama walks to the podium and he tells the world that Osama bin Laden has been killed.
- [52:44]
George W. Bush
Good evening. Tonight I can report to the American people and to the world that the United States has conducted an operation that killed Osama bin Laden, the leader of Al Qaeda and a terrorist who's responsible for the murder of thousands of innocent men, women and children.
- [53:04]
Lauren
Another interesting point of this is that while the operation was ongoing, they had the White House correspondence dinner. And so Obama and a bunch of people that were actually in on this and who were in the Situation Room during the actual raid, they were aware that like basically I believe the next.
- [53:23]
Chandler
Day everything was going down or something.
- [53:24]
Lauren
Yeah, because they had the flight, they had the 18 hour flight from North Carolina to Jalalabad and that's where they flew from to actually get into Pacific Pakistan to about a bot. Yeah, I think it was during that time that they knew. It was like very close to when the, the raid was happening and they were on the mission.
- [53:41]
Chandler
Yeah, no, I think, I think the White House correspondence dinner was like the night before or something. I mean, it's. Right, it's hard to say, but I don't think it was like during that.
- [53:49]
Lauren
It was like it wasn't during the raid, but it was while they were flying to Jalalabad from North Carolina.
- [53:53]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [53:54]
Lauren
So it was just, it was like.
- [53:55]
Chandler
It was happening well and like it was already in action.
- [53:58]
Lauren
Yeah, it was in action, but they were also, but you know, all of.
- [54:02]
Chandler
Those officials and the jokes that are made at that dinner and like they.
- [54:05]
Lauren
Made a joke about not having found Osama bin Laden.
- [54:07]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [54:08]
Lauren
At that dinner.
- [54:09]
Chandler
Also there's one CIA person or some national security person who basically says like he, his daughter had like a dance recital that day and he told his wife, like, I'm, I can't go, I, you know, I have to work that day or something. And she was just like, what could possibly be more important? Like, I guess, you know, their marriage was already strained and he obviously couldn't tell her. Right. And she literally spent the day that he was, you know, in the Situation Room on this mission. She was calling a divorce.
- [54:38]
Lauren
It's such a good documentary. Everyone, people pour into the streets, Times Square, the White House lawn, crowds seeing God Bless America.
- [54:47]
Chandler
But you know, beneath all the celebrations, serious questions kind of begin as we unpack what's just happened.
- [54:52]
Lauren
How did Pakistan not know bin Laden was living just a mile from their elite military academy? Was someone in PA you know, was. Were the Pakistanis protecting him?
- [55:02]
Chandler
Right.
- [55:02]
Lauren
Did they turn a blind eye?
- [55:04]
Chandler
The Pakistani government is furious, or at least they're publicly furious. Privately, they're scrambling. They launch an internal investigation, the Abbottabad commission, which is never fully released.
- [55:12]
Lauren
Inside the CIA, the tone is different. There's a mix of relief and vindication. For the analysts who followed the courier theory for years, it's a personal victory. They were told they were chasing ghosts, but they caught him.
- [55:24]
Chandler
There's also moral fallout. Critics say the enhanced interrogations, the waterboarding the black sites may have played a role in extracting info about the courier, but at what cost?
- [55:32]
Lauren
Others argue the raid was illegal, that it violated Pakistan's sovereignty. But the u. S. Position is firm. We did what we had to do. You didn't. It's just interesting the way that the US Was just like, actually, we're just gonna strike.
- [55:44]
Chandler
And literally we're just gonna do what we have to do.
- [55:47]
Lauren
We're just gonna do what we. What we want to do here.
- [55:49]
Chandler
And as for Osama bin Laden, he's not remembered as a martyr. There's no grave, there's no shrine.
- [55:55]
Lauren
In the years that followed, Al Qaeda splinters. The war on terror morphs in. Bin Laden becomes less of a threat and more of a warning.
- [56:02]
Chandler
And I think this is, to me, the most interesting part after, you know, watching all the documentaries, is that the CIA didn't catch bin Laden with a super drone or a phone tap or some crazy technology. They caught him through old school detective work, tradecraft patterns, and patience.
- [56:17]
Lauren
In the end, it wasn't luck. It was grit. It was analysts who refused to give up on a hunch, who followed a courier and who believed finding him still deeply mattered.
- [56:27]
Chandler
And that's how the world's most wanted terrorist was found. Not in a cave, but in a house on a quiet street with wi fi blacked out, but every secret finally brought to light.
- [56:36]
Lauren
I also just want to say that the person who was really the lead, you know, agent, was a woman who followed this lead and who was the most, like, vocal advocate for going after this person in the compound. And it's very cool. Like zero dark thirty, really. Jessica chastain's character is based on an actual woman. You can actually Google who this is, and she's now a life coach.
- [57:01]
Chandler
Oh, gosh.
- [57:02]
Lauren
And you can, like, literally get a calendly with her.
- [57:05]
Chandler
Stop.
- [57:05]
Lauren
I'm serious.
- [57:07]
Chandler
You can get, like a 30 minute session. Yeah. It's just that actually bums me out eternally.
- [57:13]
Lauren
Well, I'm.
- [57:13]
Chandler
I want her to be, like, quietly sipping tea on, like, on her porch in North Carolina maybe. Like, why does she have to be hustling for life coach sessions?
- [57:20]
Lauren
Maybe she's. She gets a lot of, like, maybe it's rewarding for her to help others.
- [57:25]
Chandler
But I thought about that. I just don't know if her skills translate to, like, being like, she's a great detective and spy.
- [57:31]
Lauren
Okay, I don't know that.
- [57:33]
Chandler
May I just. I'm like, there's another person in the social media business. Okay, well, between her and Jim Curtis won. We're fucked.
- [57:40]
Lauren
Okay, that was a deep cut to our Global Elites episode this week. Everyone, thank you for comparing Chandler, the woman who really helped and was the biggest spearheader and the reason why Osama bin Laden is dead, to Jennifer Aniston's new boyfriend.
- [57:53]
Chandler
I think that's a perfect way to.
- [57:55]
Lauren
Tie in, really, the meat of the podcast pop culture into this very unhinged deep dive. So thank you.
- [58:01]
Chandler
This is how my brain works.
- [58:03]
Lauren
Okay, everybody, one thing I will say, I could have that wrong. So maybe I need to fact check that.
- [58:08]
Chandler
I do know that her character, it's. She's based on. There were. What? It wasn't just her. She's based on a swath of people.
- [58:15]
Lauren
But there was one person and. But I could have it wrong. Maybe this life coach person that I found, maybe because it doesn't make sense that this person would be so public now. Right.
- [58:25]
Chandler
Why does she have to, like, wouldn't I just. Why did she have a square account where you can, like, swipe your card for?
- [58:30]
Lauren
Well, also, just, like, wouldn't you feel kind of vulnerable to.
- [58:33]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [58:33]
Lauren
People.
- [58:34]
Chandler
I do know there's distribution. I do know that there's, like, one woman who does take, like, credit for this. Not that she shouldn't take credit, but I do know that there is a woman who, Who Jessica Chastain's character was based on.
- [58:44]
Lauren
And I think literally, if you Google it, if you do some Googling, she's currently a life coach.
- [58:48]
Chandler
Why don't you figure this out by the time this episode's posted so we can, you know, fact check ourselves?
- [58:53]
Lauren
I did Chandler. I looked at this morning and it did seem legit. So if you want life coaching, you can also do a few Googles and potentially, you know, get more info.
- [59:01]
Chandler
Get a session.
- [59:02]
Lauren
Get a session. Also, we do have a very exciting Global Elites episode coming next week, so Just a reminder. This is the last day to sign up to be a global elite with a free trial. The free trial is ending by Thursday morning. It is done. So if you would like to sign up, go to popapologist.supportingcast.com or just go to Spotify and click on one of the Locked episodes and it'll you know you follow the steps and you can add it to any of your podcast apps. Love you guys.
- [59:31]
Chandler
Love you.
- [59:32]
Lauren
Bye.
- [59:33]
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