288: Uncovering the Real Gwyneth Paltrow Ft. Amy Odell

Summary

Pop Apologists Episode 288: Uncovering the Real Gwyneth Paltrow Ft. Amy Odell

Release Date: August 6, 2025

In Episode 288 of Pop Apologists, hosted by sisters Lauren and Chandler from PodcastOne, the focus shifts to the multifaceted life of Gwyneth Paltrow. The episode features Amy Odell, an acclaimed journalist and author, known for her in-depth biographies, including the bestselling A Meticulously Reported Portrait of Anna Wintour. Odell discusses her latest work, Gwyneth: The Biography, providing listeners with an extensive exploration of Paltrow's life, career, and the complexities that surround her public persona.

---

Introduction to Amy Odell and Her Biography

[01:57] Chandler:
"We are honored to have Amy Odell, the best-selling author of A Meticulously Reported Portrait of Anna Wintour, discuss her highly anticipated biography of Gwyneth Paltrow, set to release on July 29th."

[02:30] Amy Odell:
"I'm excited to share a complete portrait of Gwyneth Paltrow, delving into her multifaceted roles in fashion, beauty, entertainment, and wellness."

Odell emphasizes the depth of her research, noting she interviewed over 220 individuals to construct a comprehensive narrative of Paltrow's life beyond the often idealized public image.

---

Gwyneth Paltrow’s Upbringing and Early Life

[04:02] Amy Odell:
"Despite Gwyneth being profiled countless times, those stories barely scratched the surface of who she truly is."

Odell sheds light on Paltrow's privileged upbringing, detailing her parents' influence in the entertainment industry. Her mother, Blythe Danner, a respected actress, and her father, Bruce Paltrow, a successful producer, provided Gwyneth with unique opportunities from a young age. Steven Spielberg, her godfather, played a pivotal role in launching her acting career by casting her in the film Hook ([06:19] Amy Odell).

[08:26] Chandler:
"Puzzling details like Gwyneth not wearing the intended corset for her Oscar gown reveal the complexities of her early public appearances."

The discussion reveals how media scrutiny intensified after her Oscar win in 1999, with a particular focus on her privilege and the expectations placed upon her as a young, successful woman in Hollywood.

---

Navigating Hollywood and Personal Struggles

Odell explores Gwyneth's transition from dramatic roles to attempting comedy with the Farrelly Brothers, highlighting the challenges she faced during this period. Notably, Gwyneth donned a fat suit for the movie Shallow Hal in an effort to understand and combat fat-shaming, an experience that left her feeling isolated and misunderstood by the public ([12:23] Amy Odell).

[16:51] Amy Odell:
"Gwyneth's venture into wellness through Goop introduced problematic health claims that have been troubling to medical professionals."

The podcast delves into the controversies surrounding Goop, particularly its promotion of unverified health practices and products, which critics argue contribute to the spread of misinformation within the booming $6.3 trillion wellness industry ([20:32] Amy Odell).

---

Goop: Building the Wellness Empire

[24:36] Chandler:
"Gwyneth demonstrated how wellness could be monetized, impacting industries far beyond entertainment."

Odell discusses Goop's evolution from a lifestyle blog to a comprehensive wellness brand, noting its influence on the industry despite facing criticism for lacking scientific backing in its offerings. The podcast addresses Goop's strategic partnerships and product lines, such as G Label clothing and Goop Kitchen, examining both their successes and setbacks ([33:00] Amy Odell).

[35:40] Amy Odell:
"The Target collaboration with Goop faced challenges due to limited promotion amidst corporate controversies, reflecting the tightrope Goop walks between luxury and accessibility."

---

Personal Relationships and Public Image

Odell provides an intimate look at Gwyneth's personal life, particularly her relationships with high-profile figures like Brad Pitt, Ben Affleck, and Coldplay's Chris Martin. These relationships are portrayed as significant yet tumultuous chapters that influenced her public image and personal growth.

[55:27] Chandler:
"Gwyneth's relationships, especially with Brad Pitt, showcased her navigating the complexities of fame and personal connection."

The episode highlights Gwyneth's resilience in the face of personal tragedies, such as the passing of her father, and how these events propelled her towards exploring wellness as a means of coping and healing ([67:37] Amy Odell).

---

Harvey Weinstein and the #MeToo Movement

A critical segment of the discussion revolves around Gwyneth's experiences with Harvey Weinstein at Miramax. Odell recounts Gwyneth's pivotal role in exposing Weinstein's misconduct, contributing to the broader #MeToo movement.

[70:33] Amy Odell:
"Gwyneth's encounters with Weinstein were not just personal struggles but also catalysts that empowered other women to speak out against harassment and abuse in the industry."

The conversation underscores the lasting impact of Gwyneth's testimony and the importance of her brave stance in dismantling systemic misogyny within Hollywood ([73:30] Amy Odell).

---

Conclusion: The Complex Legacy of Gwyneth Paltrow

Chandler wraps up the episode by reflecting on the biography's portrayal of Gwyneth Paltrow as a complex individual whose life intertwines privilege, talent, personal struggles, and a relentless pursuit of wellness. Odell's comprehensive narrative challenges listeners to reconsider preconceived notions and appreciate the depth behind Paltrow's public persona.

[74:06] Amy Odell:
"Thank you for allowing me to share Gwyneth's story in a way that honors her complexities and contributions across various industries."

---

Notable Quotes:

• Chandler [19:25]: "Your opinion of Gwyneth Paltrow says more about you than it does her."

• Amy Odell [22:16]: "GOOP showed that wellness is something that can be monetized, and that's going to be her legacy."

• Chandler [24:36]: "Gwyneth demonstrated how wellness could be monetized, impacting industries far beyond entertainment."

---

For those interested in a deeper dive into Gwyneth Paltrow's life and legacy, Amy Odell's Gwyneth: The Biography is a must-read, offering an unfiltered and comprehensive look at one of Hollywood's most enigmatic figures.

Transcript

[Lauren]

I feel like I need to give everyone a PSA about my recent kitchen upgrades, one of them being my all clad pans. And thanks to the Macy's Big Home Sale, you can get your amateur chef hands on a seven piece set for only $250. Apparently in my case, it takes getting married and hitting your 30s to finally own real pots and pans. I am embarrassed to tell you that I was using some pretty low grade stuff before this.

[Chandler]

Now I've grown up and I have.

[Lauren]

A kitchen set that feels adult. We love our all clad set. It's beautifully polished, cooks evenly and I feel better using stainless steel cookware like a real chef. If Martha Stewart were to walk through my door, I just know that she would approve. Not only does Macy's have the all clad set, but they've got other phenomenal.

[Chandler]

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[Lauren]

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[Chandler]

Macy's.com or in store what do you.

[Amy Odell]

Think makes the perfect snack?

[Guest 1]

Hmm, it's gotta be when I'm really craving it and it's convenient.

[Amy Odell]

Could you be more specific when it's cravinient?

[Guest 1]

Okay, like a freshly baked cookie made with real butter available right down the street at a.m. p.m. Or a savory breakfast sandwich I can grab in just a second at a.m. pM.

[Amy Odell]

I'm seeing a pattern here.

[Guest 1]

Well yeah, we're talking about what I.

[Amy Odell]

Crave, which is anything from AM pm.

[Guest 1]

What more could you want? Stop by AM PM where the snacks and drinks are perfectly craveable and convenient. That's cravenience AM PM Too much Good stuff.

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[Amy Odell]

The app.

[Chandler]

Well, well, well. Today we are honored to have an expert on the pod. Amy Odell is an acclaimed journalist, author and culture critic known for her deeply researched takes on the world of fashion, celebrity and media. She's the best selling author of the biography A Meticulously Reported Portrait of Anna Wintour. And now she's back with one of, I would say my most anticipated books of the year, Gwyneth the biography. It's out July 29th. Thank you so much for coming on Pop Apologists.

[Amy Odell]

I cannot wait to talk to you.

[Chandler]

So our producer was the one who suggested, you know, we do this, like, crossover and interview. And there just couldn't be a more perfect, like, journalist, author to have on our podcast to talk about, like, a woman that we. There's probably. There should be, like, a pop apologist drinking game for how many times, like, you know, we talk about Gwyneth Paltrow. So it's gonna be great. I was lucky enough to get my hands on a copy of the book a little bit early, and I pored over it this weekend, and it was just so fascinating because I think on our podcast, you know, we're admitted fans of Gwyneth. Maybe we have our blinders on a little bit. And so I think your complete picture of her life and lore will just be really good to discuss with, you know, with our audience and just with each other.

[Amy Odell]

Agreed. Yeah. We're both Gwyneddologists.

[Guest 2]

Yes.

[Chandler]

Yes. And in fact, that kind of brings me to, like, my first question. So you obviously wrote about Anna Wintour. What then drew you to Gwyneth? Like, another powerful blonde in the industry?

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

I mean, love her or hate her, she's been in the public eye for 30 years. And, you know, when I started the book, the first thing you do is read everything you can about the person. For Gwyneth Paltrow, that's quite a lot of profiles. And, you know, I was worried in reading all those stories that I wouldn't be able to find that much that was new. But what I realized is that, you know, even though she's been profiled countless times, like, those stories really barely scratched the surface of who she really is.

[Guest 2]

Yeah, yeah.

[Amy Odell]

And I was able to interview more than 220 people to write the book. And I think that, you know, it's a really, really complete portrait of a woman who is multifaceted, complicated, and who has impacted a number of industries. Fashion, beauty, entertainment, and maybe most importantly, wellness.

[Guest 4]

Right, right.

[Chandler]

And she's still giving us a lot. Like, she's had so many chapters, I feel like to her legacy to her career, you know, there was Oscar winning Gwyneth. I mean, there's Nepo baby Gwyneth, and then there's Goop Gwyneth. I mean, we're still kind of in the Goop Gwyneth era, but, like, I mean, literally, she just posted a reel yesterday that we reposted on our Instagram because it's just. It's. She's still giving us so much to talk about.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

She knows how to keep herself in the public eye.

[Guest 2]

Yeah, yeah.

[Amy Odell]

She knows, like, she has a sense, in a way, of what people will respond to about her. And one of the people I spoke to said, you know, she's been in the public eye for so long that they almost got a sense that, like, she didn't know who she would be if she wasn't being written about.

[Chandler]

Totally, totally. I remember that part in the book which is kind of, I don't know, maybe a little sad. Like, that would be such a warped, I don't know, perception of yourself.

[Amy Odell]

It's very hard to imagine having that level of scrutiny on you for that long. Yes, I completely agree.

[Chandler]

And with so much of the scrutiny being, you know, negative, truly, and, like, kind of hated by a lot of people.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

I think there was a definite turning point in the. The coverage of her after she won her Oscar.

[Guest 2]

Yes.

[Amy Odell]

I think that's when the media. And that was the early 2000s. She won in 1999. So, like, early 2000s, 1999. We know the media was not kind to women celebrities during that period, and she was definitely subjected to that. And, you know, some of it does read as sexist and nasty going back today, but I think, you know, what people were really reacting to was her privilege.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Guest 4]

Right.

[Amy Odell]

And, you know, she had this extraordinary childhood, and we can talk about it more in depth. Mother was a famous. Is a famous actress. Blake Danner, father Bruce Paltrow, produced St. Elsewhere. That was probably the most successful thing that he did. Yeah, he was very well respected. So she had a lot of connections. She, you know, her milieu. Her whole life was movie stars.

[Chandler]

I mean, Steven Spielberg.

[Amy Odell]

Steven Spielberg is her godfather, which is like a crazy. He put her in Hook. They were driving. The story that she tells is they were driving. And he tells it, too. They were driving. They had seen Silence of the Lambs, and they were driving away from the theater. And he looks in the rearview mirror and he sees Gwyneth with a really scared look at her face, and he thinks, she's my. She's my young Wendy. For Hook, which he was about to start filming, so he throws her in the movie.

[Chandler]

Casual.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

I want to go back to the Oscar moment because you had in. I like, took a. I have, like, a really funny little screenshot or I took a picture and then I made it a screenshot or whatever, anyway, of, like, of your book.

[Amy Odell]

Okay.

[Chandler]

Because I. I annotated quite a bit. And I want to talk about what you say about, you know, after the Oscar moment. So if I may. Can I read your book back to you? Is that a good thing?

[Amy Odell]

Okay.

[Chandler]

But you say at a certain point the public tires of hearing how amazing the world's most beautiful privileged women are. This rarely happens to leading men. While the, while the hatred was sexist, most of it seemed to stem from all the privilege that Gwyneth Oscar Wynn had highlighted nepotism, which wasn't as big a flashpoint then. Growing up rich only to become even richer. Her parents buying her a six figure necklace to congratulate her on winning the Oscar at the age of 26. Yeah, talk about that more.

[Amy Odell]

So there was an article in the New York Times right after she won her Oscar, I believe she was wearing, if you recall, the pink Ralph Lauren ball gown, very famous. Didn't totally fit.

[Chandler]

Yes, I know. I like, sorry to interject, but like, I found this little detail, like so many good nuggets throughout the book about these moments that we've all seen a million times. But like, so the dress, she didn't wear the corset that was supposed to be worn with it. So it looked kind of ill fitting.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

The Ralph Lauren team was not too happy when they saw her that night. And. And it was, it just looked a little bit loose and baggy and not like, you know, flat against her body. Um, but she also was losing a lot of weight. Maybe that was stress, you know, I don't know exactly why, but she kept losing weight and she was, she really decided at the last minute. It was only like the day or two before that she decided she was going to wear that dress because she was also considering options. I want to say by Michael Kors was one of them.

[Chandler]

Okay.

[Amy Odell]

And so basically what happened was like Ralph Lauren, like he wasn't dressing. I mean, celebrity fashion, it was like barely a thing at the time. So it's not like designers were clamoring to dress celebrities. Ralph Lauren waffled a bit on like, do we send the dress to la? Because I guess there was a lot of back and forth with like her edits to the piece that she wanted to wear. Anyway, so they decide to send it. They essentially fit it in la. Like they sewed the pieces onto her body and then wow, somehow the inner corset, like didn't make it. She looks incredible anyway, though.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

Even though in some shots you can tell it doesn't really fit. But she accessorized very simply with just like a diamond choker, like kind of similar to what you're wearing, you know.

[Chandler]

Just a hundred less, 100 fewer. Carats or whatever.

[Amy Odell]

And it cost. The price was. It was between 100 and $200,000. And. And the New York Times, she borrowed it from Harry Winston. And the New York Times wrote an article about how Bruce Paltrow, who was with her that night. And you can go back and watch the video of this. She's with her parents. Bruce Paltrow said he looked over at Gwyneth and she just looked so beautiful. And he was so proud of her. He bought her that necklace as a gift. And that story was brought up again and again in these pieces, these essays about Gwyneth and how kind of annoying it was that, you know, she was getting so much attention and she was so successful.

[Chandler]

I mean, if your dad isn't buying you a $200,000 diamond necklace, like, is he even proud of you? You know, like, that's just something we should be asking ourselves. But, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, you. I think there's a moment that you mentioned where it's the night of the Oscars and someone compliments the necklace and she says, like, my daddy just bought it for me or something like that. Like, she kind of has this just maybe lack of self awareness, maybe to not. Maybe not brag a little bit or.

[Lauren]

Like, she's so excited, as she should be.

[Chandler]

But I think, you know, maybe to everyone, that story is not going to land with the same, you know, excitement.

[Amy Odell]

Exactly. A lot of writers fed theories over the years about why Gwyneth Paltrow is so triggering.

[Lauren]

Yes.

[Amy Odell]

And I'll. I'll give you my analysis if I may. So she grew up, you know, in this rarefied world, as I said, like, wealthy, bi, coastal childhood between New York and la, going to movie sets, all of that. She never really had, like a quote unquote, normal life.

[Chandler]

Never.

[Amy Odell]

And I don't think she can. Like, she just can't relate to it. And I think when she got herself into trouble with these comments, it's just because, like, she was trying to get on the level of a normal person. Normal, like, quotation marks. And she just, like, she can't.

[Chandler]

She truly cannot. You know, she's never had. She's never had a normal childhood. I mean, I think, like, you talk about how Bruce actually was the one who kind of had a little bit more of, like, an eye for the finer things, whereas Blythe was more, you know, she never expected herself to become a movie star. But like Bruce said, like, at one point, Gwyneth doesn't know how to, like, look to the right on a Plane or something. Some joke about how she only knew how to fly first class.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

So Bruce told friends that. So the kids would go back and forth between New York and Los Angeles because Bruce would be working on his shows like St. Elsewhere, whatever it may be. So he would go there during the week and then be around and Blythe would leave. And anyway, so they were traveling a lot. So when Bruce would fly with Gwyneth and Jake, he would take them first class because he liked the high life. Blythe, she. She went to a Quaker high school.

[Chandler]

Wow, that's crazy.

[Amy Odell]

Less sounded to me less materialistic. And she would, she flew the kids coach and apparently one time Gwyneth got on the plane with Blythe and she said, you mean we're not flying first class? We're flying no class.

[Chandler]

It's hard because it's like she's a circus animal and works like who's been raised in the circus of, you know, this wealth and crazy world. And we like as a society want her to act like someone who, you know, shopped at Walmart growing up or something. You know, just someone who was. Just had a more normal life. And that's why she maybe is so triggering is kind of your point.

[Amy Odell]

I think. So that was, that was the analysis that my editor and I came up with. You know, and she's made so many comments over the years that have become so famous. Like when she put on the fat suit for Shallow Hell and she was talking about. And people told me like she. So she. Before they filmed the movie, she put on the fat suit and she just walked around.

[Chandler]

I didn't know this story also South Carolina until I read like.

[Amy Odell]

Thank you.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

As someone who feel like knew a decent amount about Gwyneth, I had no idea about this story. Like this is. It's crazy that Gwyneth did this. I think about present day Gwyneth, the fact that she did this, it's crazy.

[Amy Odell]

I know. So after she won her Oscar, she wanted to do something different because she had been doing these sort of ice princessy roles. Like she did Great Expectations. She did a perfect murder, Shakespeare in Love. She was always playing kind of like an aristocratic upper class, very sophisticated person. So she wanted to try comedies. So the Farrelly brothers were kind of the best people you could work with. I understand actually why she took the movie, even though I know it is very problematic and was even by the standards of that time. 2001. 2002.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

So she wanted to do comedy. She decides to work with the Farrelly Brothers. And she has to wear a fat suit so that she looks three times her size because she's playing a woman who looks to Jack black like she's 110 pounds or something. Gorgeous to Jack Black because a spell is cast on him by Tony Robbins so that he only sees inner beauty. Okay, so, like, that's the ridiculous premise that she's working with. But she truly believed, I was told, that she thought the movie would bring awareness to fat shaming. I don't think that it did that, but she thought that. She did think that it would. But to prepare, she would put on the fat suit and walk around just to see what it was like to live in that body. And it was really hard for her. And I was told, you know, by people who worked on that movie that, like, she was supposed to do a certain number of sort of walkabouts, and she couldn't. She couldn't finish one of them. Yeah, because it was like, she'd walk by, I don't know, teen girls, and they'd be snickering like nobody knew this was Gwyneth Paltrow.

[Guest 4]

Right.

[Amy Odell]

She'd walk by, you know, men, instead of looking at her, would just sort of, like, skirt around her on the sidewalk or.

[Chandler]

I think you mentioned, too, that people would almost be frustrated with her. Like, she experienced that. Not only the invisibility, but then. Yeah, like the snickering or people being visibly annoyed with her for just existing.

[Amy Odell]

Exactly. And then her comment to an entertainment TV show was. I'm paraphrasing, but she basically said that it was a difficult experience to do that, and every pretty girl should be forced to do that so they know what it feels like, which is one of those things that, like, really inflames people.

[Chandler]

And I.

[Amy Odell]

The way I sort of see those comments is like, she's trying to understand.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

But it's hard when you've just never had, you know, like, an average sort of existence.

[Lauren]

Totally.

[Chandler]

And I think, you know, when you grow up that way and everyone is just constantly fawning over you, like, how are you supposed to see yourself in any type of normal light? I mean, like, I see where she's coming from. I think it's the. Every pretty girl should do this that, like, I think really, like, is bothersome. Where it's like, people should know that, like, you know, it's a very different experience in our society to be overweight. You know, you are treated differently. There is, like, a degree of privilege to, you know, not being overweight.

[Amy Odell]

And.

[Chandler]

But anyway, she didn't have the maybe like the foresight to talk about it in a. In a more general way.

[Amy Odell]

Yeah, Chandler, can I tell you what.

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[Lauren]

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[Amy Odell]

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[Lauren]

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[Chandler]

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[Lauren]

I feel like I need to give everyone a PSA about my recent kitchen upgrades. One of them being my all clad pans. And thanks to the Macy's big home sale you can get your amateur chef hands on a seven piece set for only $250. Apparently in my case, it takes getting married and hitting your 30s to finally own real pots and pans. I am embarrassed to tell you that I was using some pretty low grade stuff before this.

[Chandler]

Now I've grown up and I have.

[Lauren]

A kitchen set that feels adult. We love our all clad set. It's beautifully polished, cooks evenly and I feel better using stainless steel cookware like a real chef. If Martha Stewart were to walk through my door, I just know that she would approve. Not only does Macy's have the all clad set, but they've got other phenomenal.

[Chandler]

Deals like 20 to 40% off select.

[Lauren]

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[Chandler]

This podcast many times is that your opinion of Gwyneth Paltrow says more about you than it does her. And I think that comes from a place, you know, of feeling like she represents beauty, power, success, privilege. And like, for a lot of people, that, that is instantly triggering that. You know, if you can't really, like, separate yourself from people in those positions, if you just automatically hate them, that says something about you. I'm curious what you think about that.

[Amy Odell]

That's an interesting theory. I mean, sure. I mean, I think that I could agree with that definitely. But I also will say, you know, when she started talking about health and wellness in goop, there were some real concerns that came up in the medical community. So I wouldn't want to dismiss those because I did interview her critics. I interviewed public health experts, health misinformation experts, doctors who are really troubled by some of the things that she publishes and talks about. So I, I wouldn't dismiss that. Yeah, criticism.

[Chandler]

And I completely agree. And I think that it's not right for GOOP to make health claims that are fully unsubstantiated and like, you know, they didn't fact check.

[Amy Odell]

Not really. No.

[Chandler]

And that. That's a big problem. I mean, they.

[Amy Odell]

Yeah. So I asked so many people, like, did. Did you fact check? Did you fact check? Did you fact check people who worked at goop? I mean, and it sounds like they had a copy editor. I mean, I don't want to get in the weeds about, like, publishing and fact checking. It sounds like they had a copy editor who would, like, sort of, like, check things like your proper nouns and stuff like that. And, you know, maybe if you're just doing, like, a travel guide, that's perfectly fine. But, yeah, there is stuff, and it's still on the website. I was looking at it the other day. You know, there's claims about how celery juice can do all these amazing things for your health that are still on the site. And you know what people told me is that they think Gwyneth is really smart.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

And they were baffled by these gurus that she was attracted to who she would amplify through goop. For instance, Anthony William, the medical medium. Yes. Who claims that there's something called spirit that talks to him in his ear and can provide him, like, medical advice, including for people who have conditions that are serious, like cancer. And he started the celery juice craze, which, like goop, amplified Shaman Durek, who suggested in his book that doctors prescribe chemotherapy to cancer patients, in part at least to make money. So these claims experts find really, really troubling. And, you know, the wellness industry today is valued at $6.3 trillion as a point of comparison. You know, Shaman Durek really thinks that the pharmaceutical industry is profiting. Well, not as much as the wellness industry, because the pharmaceutical industry globally is valued at $1.6 trillion.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

It's crazy. I mean, those. Those two. I don't even want to say medical.

[Amy Odell]

Professionals, I call them gurus.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

They don't have training.

[Amy Odell]

Yeah, they don't.

[Chandler]

It's so funny how. And I think a lot of celebrities.

[Lauren]

Do this, but they're attracted to these.

[Chandler]

Like, contrarian gurus who are like, the.

[Lauren]

System is lying to you.

[Chandler]

The medical community is lying to you. You can't trust people, you know, or whatever.

[Amy Odell]

And.

[Chandler]

And then, like, celebrities pay lots of money to just, like, fall for this. And, like, it's fine if you want to do that with your own money, but there really is a true problem if you are then, you know, repackaging that information for the masses with your platform.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

I think that Gwyneth showed that wellness is something that can be monetized. And I think that's going to be her legacy, that she showed how much money people will spend and how much effort they'll undergo to feel well, Right. No matter what science says. And, you know, now this type of stuff is just all over the Internet. When she was doing it in the 2010s, you know, publishing about what Jade eggs could allegedly do for you, which is, you know, according to doctors, nothing good. If anything, when she was saying that water has feelings, like all these things that she was publishing, it seemed really crazy at the time because social media wasn't as mature. The wellness industry was growing. I tried to find a measure for how big the wellness industry was. When she started Goop in 2008, I couldn't even really find one. I found a measure of the global spa economy.

[Chandler]

Yeah, that was what it was, like, called, basically. Or, like, that was the best.

[Amy Odell]

It was just not really, like, so much of an industry that. And I think the GOOP really helped create it. And now other people may even be monetizing it better than her. Like, Mark Hyman is someone who sells a bunch of supplements, and he makes. He made like, $27 million on supplements. I mean, it's Andrew Huberman.

[Chandler]

Like, yes.

[Amy Odell]

All these people. There's just so many more people. There's so many supplements on the market, you know, and supplements are regulated as food, not as drugs. I think one of the reasons that the wellness industry grew so large is because it's not regulated.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

Like, wellness products don't have to help you.

[Guest 2]

Yes.

[Amy Odell]

Pharmaceuticals need to prove that they can.

[Guest 4]

Right, Right.

[Amy Odell]

So, yeah, I. I do think that it is concerning. And she showed that if you publish this stuff, like, you're gonna get a big audience. One of the experts I spoke to said facts aren't profitable.

[Chandler]

You know, I mean, I think when you publish something inflammatory, you draw eyeballs and let like. And that is if that has been a strategy. That is really sad.

[Guest 3]

Yeah, it was.

[Amy Odell]

And Gwyneth. Gwyneth has talked about that. That, you know, if they publish, like, the celery juice article, they rank an SEO, they get a bunch of traffic for it. The benefit to them is, like, maybe someone on the site will go and then buy a sweater or they'll buy the J Dag, you know, so it's just getting the eyeballs at the top.

[Chandler]

Of funnel, like, just getting exactly the bottle.

[Amy Odell]

Because the problem. The problem that, like, retail websites have, like, Bloomingdale's or. I don't know. Where do you shop? Net a Porter.

[Chandler]

Net a Porter Shop. Bob.

[Amy Odell]

Shop.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

It's just getting people to go to the site because why would you go there?

[Guest 4]

Right?

[Amy Odell]

And this was kind of the genius of goop. Like, I have to give her credit. I worked in media for a long time before I became a full time author. And I don't know, I guess, I guess I could call myself a creator, independent journalist, whatever we call ourselves today, because I don't have a media job anymore. But GOOP was what GOOP was doing as a business. It was what a lot of media companies wanted to do, like having life events. They have a book publishing imprint, you know, a website that people talk about.

[Chandler]

And care about, a newsletter, a Netflix show.

[Amy Odell]

A Netflix show. Like all of those things, product lines, you know, attention for everything that they did because of her. So I think that there she was very, very savvy. But it strikes me as unfortunate that she wasn't using her platform to get, you know, accurate information.

[Chandler]

Totally.

[Amy Odell]

Readers.

[Chandler]

Totally. I'm curious if you want to speak at all about like the, the culture at, at goop, because I think like that that was an interesting part of the book was hearing from, you know, employees. I mean, you said that a lot of people were kind of scared to talk to you or they'd already, or they'd sign NDAs or whatnot. You know, I worked several corporate jobs that I feel like I see my experience in all of these where it's like, yeah, it's kind of toxic. Like, so I don't always have a ton of empathy, I feel like, because I just think that's like, you know, you just, you just kind of work. You cut your teeth and you work at like these. If you work at a flashy job, it might kind of be toxic. And so I don't always, I don't know, I'm. I guess, like, is that just due to the industry or is that Gwyneth's fault?

[Amy Odell]

You know, people have a variety of explanations for the culture. People did say, some people said, you know, they kind of ignored the drama and they had a great time. And Gwyneth is great. But the dynamic I see as being this. So when Gwyneth shines her light on you feels amazing.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

And executives would come in, like people reporting to her and they want to be in her world, they want to be her friend. Someone said to me, like, you know, we're not working here so we can go to the Oscars with her. But she has this really powerful charisma. And she's fun. She's really fun. And so people would come in and, you know, want to be close to her, but she has favorites and the favorites can change and they do regularly. So then, you know, when she would decide you weren't her favorite anymore, people could feel really stressed out, by the way.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

So some people could just like write it out and wait for her sort of mood to change on them. Some people really couldn't. And that stress would just permeate the environment. The other thing that made it hard is that, you know, doing like a content oriented business, like, it's just, it's hard, it's hard. Like there's all the social media, there's the articles, the newsletter. GOOP was also doing product lines like Gwyneth and I, I think this is to her credit. Like, she's a really ambitious person and she wants to do everything perfectly. She's a perfectionist. We see that just by looking at her, just by looking at any of her homes.

[Guest 4]

Right.

[Amy Odell]

And she wanted everything that GOOP did to be, you know, the best of the best, beautiful, aspirational, et cetera. So she wanted to do everything, she wanted to do it all really well. And it was just a lot for the team that they had.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

To keep up with. And like, I can relate to, again, as someone who worked in media, like, I felt the same thing, like in having to keep up with everything.

[Guest 4]

Right.

[Amy Odell]

And I think, you know, GOOP has had some bumps in recent years. They had a couple of staff cuts in 2024. I think what happened there is that, you know, it just grew so large because they were trying to do all those, so many things, all those different things.

[Chandler]

Kitchen. Like there was the print mag.

[Amy Odell]

Like the print mag that came and went. Yes, that was funny. That was fun to report on.

[Guest 3]

But yeah.

[Amy Odell]

So then I think eventually, like, they just had to get those expenses down.

[Guest 4]

Right.

[Amy Odell]

Okay.

[Chandler]

I want, I actually, I want to come back to the print mag because I want to talk about Anna, Gwenna and Aunt or Gwenna, the two of them, Gwyneth and Anna Gwenna facing off, but just, you know, staying in the GOOP world for a second. Like, as I was reading this, I was thinking about the fact that I, you know, I admit, like, I ride for Gwyneth. I love following her content. I'll consume anything that, you know, she puts out there. But I don't really like ride for GOOP at all. I don't buy anything from goop. I don't have any G label clothing and I have this loyalty to Gwyneth, but that hasn't translated, like. That hasn't translated into, like, brand loyalty for goop.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

And I don't know. Why do you think that is? Is that something that you came across at all in your report?

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

That's so interesting to hear that from you. I mean. I mean, I guess I can relate. You know, when I was doing the book, I did try some of the GOOP beauty products, and they were just, honestly, too expensive for me to use regularly.

[Chandler]

That's a big.

[Amy Odell]

They're nice products, but I. It's like a moisturizer was. It was so expensive, and it wasn't worth it to me to, like, keep buying it. But it was a nice moisturizer.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Guest 3]

So, yeah.

[Amy Odell]

And then G Label clothing, that too. It's pretty expensive. Like, it's very good quality. Made in Italy by the same factories that make, like, Saint Laurent. I think it's, like, it's good stuff. And because she sells it just direct to consumer, it doesn't have the markups that, like, you would see at, I don't know, Neiman Marcus or Saks Fifth Avenue. But.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

So what I. What I do know about GOOP is that when Gwyneth is in that, the branding or the ads, like, when she's pushing something, it does help it sell.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

I mean, you have this little anecdote where, you know, they had a bunch of these tote bags that they hadn't sold.

[Guest 3]

Yes.

[Chandler]

She was like, do you need me to just take a photo in it? And then they sold.

[Guest 3]

Yes. Yes.

[Amy Odell]

Thank you for bringing that up.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

It was like a leather L.L. bean tote bag.

[Chandler]

Like just a basic tote.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

But leather and, like, white. So not the most practical bag.

[Chandler]

Wait, it was white leather?

[Amy Odell]

I'm pretty sure. Yeah. White leather.

[Chandler]

It's a white leather tote.

[Amy Odell]

And it wasn't cheap because it's G labels. Right.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

But then she says, do I need to carry it? And she was photographed with it. And then they sold. The stock moved.

[Guest 3]

Yeah. So.

[Amy Odell]

But that's, you know, I think that's a problem, actually. Like, in a way, it's good because you can sell your products because it's Gwyneth, but in a way, it's risky because, you know, if she decides she doesn't want to promote it, if she's busy, then, you know, are the products going to sell? And I think that's what makes goop's future sort of interesting to think about, because I know that they talked in the Office about like being acquired. That would be a natural thing for a company to do. That has raised around $142 million in venture capital, according to PitchBook. But if you acquire them, is Gwyneth gonna be there for you to like, sell things?

[Chandler]

To me, the GOOP products and G label, they are beautiful, they seem high quality, but they do not have a lot of heart in them. Like, I think the heart comes from Gwyneth wearing them. That, that's like where. Yeah. Where all of the appeal comes to me, but it doesn't, it doesn't feel like they are standalone all that, like different from the other things that you might be buying at Nordstrom, you know, the Nordstrom beauty counter or at, you know, I'm trying like any other like high end basics company.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

The cuts that they made recently, I Goop a lot of those, as I understand it, were in the content part of the business. So, like all the articles they were publishing, you know, allocating fewer resources for that. And some people pointed out to me and I think this is, this is true. The content kind of gave GOOP its soul. And I already said, I, you know, I don't think it was great that she was publishing stories by a guy who says that spirit diagnoses cancer. You know, I cannot stand behind that in any way. But when she was talking in the beginning of GOOP and she was less in the wellness space, she was just saying, like, invest in a Chanel dress and here's where I like to eat and here's a recipe I like to make and you can use any kind of caviar like that. That was kind of the soul of it. And I think when you take that away, it just becomes. Or when you try to water it.

[Chandler]

Down to like an everyday consumer.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

People who worked there said, you know, it's kind of lost a bit of that magic because.

[Guest 4]

Right.

[Amy Odell]

It's just pushing the product. And the thinking behind that was that I guess Gwyneth got some advice that you can just repurpose your content. You don't need a bunch of new content. But yeah, I mean, one of the best things that Goop does actually are the travel guides.

[Guest 2]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

If you've ever.

[Chandler]

No, I, I mean, once again, a huge fan of Gwyneth never used a group travel guy.

[Amy Odell]

Like, their restaurant recommendations are great.

[Guest 2]

Yeah, yeah.

[Amy Odell]

So that stuff. But, you know, I don't know how much they're even updating that stuff now. Promoting that stuff now.

[Guest 4]

Right.

[Guest 3]

Well.

[Chandler]

And it was, Was that that profitable?

[Amy Odell]

Exactly. Because the Company has not. They've had, like, brief periods of profitability or profitable months, but not like a sustained. So they're trying to get there. I mean, the company started in 2008, 2025. So, like, I get it, but I do think that, you know, it just feels like it's lost something. And now it's like they're pushing the clothing, the beauty products, and Goop Kitchen. And Goop Kitchen, as I understand it, is basically a licensing deal.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

That could be a future where she just licenses the Goop name. Like, if she wants to go back.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

Because she's going to be in a movie with Timothee Chalamet coming out at the end of 2025.

[Chandler]

Very excited about that.

[Amy Odell]

So excited. So, yeah, if she wants to do more of that, you know, she's done with being CEO.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

That's something that she probably could do.

[Chandler]

I remember when they put their line in Target, Goop Clean Skin. Or is it Good clean Skin. What is it close?

[Amy Odell]

It was three. It's three words with dots between them.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

Good clean Goop.

[Chandler]

Good. So close. Good clean Goop. Yes. And I remember seeing, like, the reel that she posted, it was her in Target, and I was like, okay, hold on. We have a reel of Gwyneth Paltrow and Target, like, what is happening? And I never felt called to try the products. And then, like, I think you. You mentioned in the book that they're, like, some of the lowest performing ones on the shelves.

[Amy Odell]

They didn't sell well. Yeah. So the Target line, I mean, you could debate the merits of that from a business perspective, but Goop is like a luxury brand.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

Gwyneth is selling aspiration.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

That's why she was so effective at building the wellness industry, because she gave it this gorgeous aesthetic, and people wanted to be a part of that. And she has amazing taste.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

And so what happened with Target, I mean, this was not her fault, but so if you're gonna go, you know, and do the lower price line and perhaps, you know, chip into your luxury credit. Okay. But the problem with Target is that they did not promote the line. And it was reported that the reason for that is there was a bunch of controversy at Target around their Pride collection around the time. Oh, no way.

[Chandler]

So it, like, coincided with just, like a bad, bad moment.

[Amy Odell]

They were worried.

[Chandler]

It was last summer, maybe, I think I remember.

[Amy Odell]

Or two summers ago, maybe.

[Chandler]

Two summers ago. Yeah, I remember the pride stuff.

[Amy Odell]

And they were worried that Gwyneth was controversial and they didn't want to stir up Another controversy. So they didn't really promote it. So it's not really her fault.

[Guest 4]

Right.

[Chandler]

That makes me kind of sad because. I don't know, I like. Yeah, that makes me sad because I just thought, oh, maybe the products are just not that great.

[Amy Odell]

And I don't.

[Chandler]

I don't know what they're like. But that's a bummer that it didn't receive that, like, promotion.

[Amy Odell]

That was the only example that I found where a partner. And there may be others, but the only one that I found, and I asked a lot about this, where a partner for Gwyneth or Goop was bothered by the health misinformation aspect of what she was doing.

[Lauren]

Interesting.

[Amy Odell]

You know, it's like Netflix did a show with her.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

Celebrity Cruises partnered with her on a GOOP cruise.

[Guest 4]

Right.

[Amy Odell]

Which. Too bad we didn't end up going on that podcast.

[Chandler]

Did they do. Do they still do the cruise? That was also another weird.

[Amy Odell]

Maybe they cut back because they're, you know, trying to focus on fashion, beauty and food. But, like, all the partnerships she had, all the brands that sponsored in GOOP Health or that wanted to do a deal with her, it doesn't bother people that she did this. And, you know, all brands are really looking for is, like, impressions.

[Guest 2]

Yep.

[Chandler]

And she's getting eyeballs.

[Amy Odell]

She gets eyeballs. She gets impressions. But, you know, I. So that was the only example of a corporate partner saying, hey. And I asked, like, did the board ever, like, say anything Right. Stuff. No, because that was the thing with Goop is that one ex. One former executive told me, you know, Goop is not telling you to go get a checkup at your gp.

[Guest 4]

Right.

[Amy Odell]

Like, that's not why people are there. And there was just not really ever concern about it. So, I mean, outside of Goop, there was, but I found that to be wild.

[Chandler]

I mean, I will say, like, I don't see Gwyneth or Goop as any type of, like, health guru, medical, like, pillar of information. Like, I would never start there or. But I. I'm sure there are people who do and that, you know, they still have a responsibility as a platform. But, like, I don't see. I don't see Gwyneth Paltrow group as, like, as a replacement for any of that. But maybe I'm also just a person who believes in traditional medicine and, you know, the. All the doctors, you know, that I typically go to.

[Guest 3]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lauren]

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[Amy Odell]

Yeah.

[Lauren]

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[Chandler]

Than just a couple of days, so.

[Lauren]

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[Amy Odell]

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[Lauren]

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[Chandler]

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[Chandler]

Rewind a little bit and go back to her early life.

[Lauren]

Sure.

[Chandler]

I want to talk about, like, you interviewed over 220 people. What was her.

[Guest 3]

What.

[Chandler]

What was this inner circle? If you could even call those 200 people her inner circle or, you know, like, what was it like? How did it compare, maybe to, like, interviewing for Anna Wintour biography? Just curious about that.

[Amy Odell]

Similar, in a way. Although I will say, like, biographies are just never easy.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

And require a lot of digging and legwork to do well, I think. But, you know, Anna made access to her colleagues and friends easy, and that did not happen with this book, so I really had to dig.

[Lauren]

Interesting.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

I mean, do you want to share, like, what you talk about in your kind of your opening where, you know, Gwent, if you asked Gwyneth, if you asked her team if she wanted to be interviewed? And she said, yeah, maybe share that.

[Amy Odell]

Yeah. So they. Sure. She had a couple, a few PR people over the course of me working on this book at goop, and, you know, I. They reached out to me and they said, hey, we hear you're working on this book. You know, they had initially said they wanted to help. I believed them. And then help never came.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

Honestly. And I kept saying, you know, does she want to be interviewed? There's still time. There's still time. Right around the time he was finishing up, I finally got a formal decline through her rep for an interview.

[Guest 2]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chandler]

It's interesting. I can. I can understand her, like, her skepticism and just being interviewed at all. But then again, she's still. I don't know. She is still being interviewed, so it's not like she's hiding away from, you know, all, you know, anything like that.

[Amy Odell]

No, I mean, I think the difference between, like, a profile, you read of her in this book is that those profiles are just much more tightly controlled by her.

[Chandler]

Yeah, right.

[Amy Odell]

And this book is not.

[Chandler]

Yeah, right. Like, I think, I think you say, and please correct me, but you, like, you say she wanted to fact check the entire book and you said, ask for that. Yeah. Her team. And you had said, well, I would love to interview her and she can fact check anything that's discussed in that interview. And even that, like, didn't, you know?

[Amy Odell]

No, because that's typically what you would do in journalism is, you know, like, if I interviewed you and you weren't a fact checking call. Sure. But like a fact checker would work off your transcripts or whatever. But yeah, yeah, just interesting.

[Chandler]

Were there any key sources or voices that you didn't get to talk to.

[Lauren]

Besides her that you wish you could have?

[Amy Odell]

I think there's always people you want to talk to with biographies. I think there's a reason some authors spend three times as long on biographies as I did on this. This was a three year effort for me and it was, it was really rigorously reported. It's a lot of work. So. But I, I also felt like I got everything that I wanted the audience to know about and that I came away with a really new understanding of her and a lot of new information.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

About. About her, about her childhood, about, you know, why she became so polarizing.

[Chandler]

Yeah, let's. Let's go back to her childhood and talk a little bit about, you know, growing up in the shadow of Bruce and Blythe.

[Amy Odell]

Can you imagine?

[Chandler]

No, I, I really can't. And I, I knew that Bruce was, like, a director. I just don't think I really understood, like, kind of the life that he led. I definitely did not know about Blythe's, like, pedigree and, like, everything. Like, just how accomplished she was, how, how I, you know, I feel kind of bad saying this. I didn't know how, like, great of an actor she was. Funny little story. I was in Amagansett last summer with my sister and her friend. We were, it was just, you know, we were there renting for a weekend. Yeah, just an Airbnb.

[Amy Odell]

Amagansett is nice.

[Chandler]

It is so nice. But we were in the liquor store. We were just at wine shop, whatever. Liquor store sounds like really seedy. But we were in the wine shop and we walk in and my one friend goes, that's Blythe Danner. And Blythe is literally right there in front of us.

[Amy Odell]

Gwyneths Hampton's place is. Yes.

[Chandler]

We debated tracking her car and, like, tailing her. We did not. We showed restraint. But, you know, she was just very demure. Like, she kind of dressed just like. Like, in an outfit. I mean, this with love. Like, my grandma would have worn, like, kind of these, like, silky pants and, like, a. Like, she just. She did not really give celebrity, but kind of in a way that I loved. And so, anyway, I can't imagine growing up in the shadow of Bruce and Blythe.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

So Blythe wanted to be an actress from a fairly young age. Her parents were both singers and performers, although her dad pursued banking instead of singing because he wanted to earn money, which I get as a writer. And she studied acting in college. She finished her degree. Both of them finished their degrees. And then she started doing theater. She quickly found success in theater. Her breakout role was in a play called Butterflies Are Free. And she met Bruce in the theater. They were doing a play together called Someone's Coming Hungry. Bruce studied painting and art at Tulane. And his. His father was a businessman who had a steel company, and his brother was a successful real estate developer. So he left the art and painting behind to pursue the entertainment industry. He wanted to be a successful, famous, wealthy producer, so he dabbled in theater. He met Blythe on that play. They got married, I think, less than a year after they met.

[Guest 2]

Wow.

[Amy Odell]

And then they went out to Los Angeles. I mean, her career. Someone said to me, he seemed to be writing her coattails a little bit because she was so well regarded. They went out to Los Angeles. He met Steven Spielberg. They became besties. They had Gwyneth and her brother, younger brother Jake. And Gwyneth went to a private school, St. Augustine's out there. But then every summer they would go, from the time Gwyneth was a baby, they would go to something called Williamstown Theater Festival in the Berkshires.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

So like upstate Massachusetts. Massachusetts, Excuse me. And it's like a play workshop or.

[Amy Odell]

Like summer stock theater.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

But they would do, at the time that Blythe was going, the guy who ran the festival called Nikos Sakropoulos, this great guy, he wanted to stage, even though it was summer stock theater, like, he didn't take it lightly. He wanted to do Shakespeare and Chekhov and Greek tragedies. And he got superstars to go and do these plays every summer. Not for money, just to, like, be in a play.

[Lauren]

Like Meryl Streep, Right?

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

So when Gwyneth was around 2, Blythe was doing the Seagull by Chekhov, which is playing Nina, which is regarded as the hardest role ever written for an actress.

[Chandler]

I know nothing about theater or any.

[Amy Odell]

I had to learn all this stuff, too.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

So new to me.

[Amy Odell]

And Gwyneth is there, hearing her perform, do the lines, toddling about, just absorbing it all.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

And Blythe tells a story about how Gwyneth, like, got up on the stage one day and started reciting the famous speech. How does it go? Something lions, antler, deer, something like that. Anyway, so she's absorbing all of this. She's seeing her mom do it. She's seeing all these famous performers.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

And then she starts getting slotted into plays because they loved Blythe. Oh, what I want to say about the Seagull, Let me go back. So when Nikos and his team were deciding who to put in the Seagull, they were between Blythe and Meryl Streep.

[Chandler]

Yes.

[Amy Odell]

But his team felt like Blythe was the best actress on the stage at that time.

[Guest 3]

Wow.

[Amy Odell]

And they got her and she killed it. And she's famous for that role. There's like, a public television special. You can go watch her do it.

[Chandler]

No way.

[Amy Odell]

That they filmed after that. Yeah, she's very famous for that. And Gwyneth later reprised. Well, Gwyneth later did the role, but she didn't get the. The marks that Blythe did.

[Guest 4]

Right.

[Amy Odell]

But she was. She was younger. She didn't have the life experience.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

Because that part, it's about a woman who, like, has a lover and then, like, a baby with the lover, and then the baby, I think, dies. Like, it's a lot of tragedy.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

So if you're young and you've never had, like, a super serious relationship or a child, like, I think it's hard to get inside that part.

[Guest 3]

So.

[Amy Odell]

Yeah, but. But that's.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

And then Bruce, he found success in television.

[Chandler]

St.

[Amy Odell]

Elsewhere was his biggest hit.

[Guest 3]

The.

[Amy Odell]

The TV show about doctors at a Boston hospital.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

And it was critically acclaimed. It wasn't the most viewed show, but he was super respected. So both of her parents, I think, you know, it's not like they were the richest people in Hollywood. I mean, they did well, don't get me wrong. But they were just known for doing good work.

[Guest 2]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chandler]

They were, like, respected in their, you know, in their craft and their trade.

[Amy Odell]

And Gwyneth, she wanted to be a child actor, but her parents were like, no. Yeah, you gotta finish school.

[Guest 2]

Yes.

[Chandler]

And I think one of the, like, most kind of juicy parts is talking about her time at Spence, which was her, like, high school, basically. Right.

[Amy Odell]

She started there in seventh grade. Spence is the Upper east side, New York City.

[Guest 2]

Yes.

[Amy Odell]

Private school.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

A very like elite student body.

[Chandler]

I guess I, I pictured Gossip Girl kind of like.

[Guest 3]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chandler]

Kind of thing, you know, and I, like, she doesn't come across as, as amazingly nice and you know, in, during her spends time and obviously you don't want to hold people to who they were in high school, but I, I found myself being a little bit disappointed at kind of how bratty and entitled she seemed. Like during this time, do you think she just didn't know how to be any other way?

[Amy Odell]

Well, she wanted to be an actress and she didn't. School was not for her.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

Like, as I said, people said she's super smart. She picks things up really fast. Like when she filmed Emma, the 1996 movie, that was her first leading part. She had to learn archery. She had to learn like a dance time.

[Chandler]

The harpsichord one too, like.

[Guest 3]

Yeah, yeah.

[Amy Odell]

The Harks. She just picks things up really fast.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

And at goop, like she has to learn how to read financial statements. She does it. She's really good at that stuff. Yeah.

[Chandler]

And if, and if something's not of interest to her and she doesn't matter to her, she's going to make that clear.

[Amy Odell]

Right.

[Chandler]

Like, and so she kind of acted up in school. I mean, there's an amazing story about how she was like in detention or something, basically in the library during lunchtime or whatever. And she ordered a pizza to the, to the school for herself. And the, you know, like the librarian gets a call. It's like, hey, did you order a pizza? And I don't know who says, like, maybe it's her that says, like, you know, it's for me or something.

[Guest 3]

Yeah. The.

[Amy Odell]

So the headmaster at the school gets a call that there's a, like a pizza delivery there for Gwyneth Paltrow, who's in detention.

[Guest 2]

Yes, yes.

[Amy Odell]

And so she goes and gets the pizza and she's like, gwyneth, why did you order pizza? And because she was supposed to eat her lunch there in detention instead of with her. That was like the punishment. And she's like, oh, I just, I just thought pizza would be, would be nice.

[Chandler]

So it's less of just like, you know, royal Tenenbaums, heavy eyeliner, eye rolly Gwyneth. And it's more of just like, of course I ordered pizza for myself.

[Amy Odell]

Yeah, exactly.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

So her teachers, the people who worked at Spence said like they just could never be too mad at her.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

There was Just something about her personality. She would just, like, smile and they would just. They would not be mad at her. But yeah, she, like, went late to school. I mean, she went to party and like, yeah, boys and stuff like that. Like, everyone can relate to that. School. Just, like, it wasn't for her. She didn't want to be in school.

[Chandler]

Yeah, but the.

[Amy Odell]

She had, the. She had the ability to not focus on it because she had all these connections.

[Chandler]

And it sounded to me like she posts basically.

[Amy Odell]

She had a sense that, like, she was gonna coast into that career and she really wanted it.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

Like, that matters for those careers, I think, like, you have to, like, want it so bad.

[Chandler]

Totally. You know what a perfect night in.

[Lauren]

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[Chandler]

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[Chandler]

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[Chandler]

I mean, another little great anecdote in the book about, like, the amount of.

[Lauren]

Cigarettes that she smoked.

[Chandler]

Yeah, she is like 19 a day or something like that.

[Amy Odell]

At one point she was smoking a lot. Yeah, she started smoking at Spence. I mean, I think a lot of the kids did that. And Bruce would try to stop her and he would, like, go to a place where he knew she would smoke, just like, see if he could catch her. And like, they were very disturbed. I mean, obviously very disturbed by that. I have kids. If they were smoking, I would freak out.

[Chandler]

I would, like, I would completely freak out. Like, they would be pulled out of school or something that couldn't get them to stop smoking, you know, that many cigarettes. And at one point, he has Madonna write her a note.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

To please.

[Amy Odell]

Before they were friends because she was at Spence and Madonna was Madonna. So he had a connection to Madonna because he had worked with Sean Penn and they were married, obviously. So he says, can Madonna get. Write a note to Gwyneth so that she stops smoking. Gwyneth brings it into school to show the school and she frames it and puts it up in her bedroom. But she didn't stop smoking.

[Chandler]

Obsessed. That's like.

[Amy Odell]

I mean, why would that get you to stop smoking?

[Guest 4]

Right.

[Chandler]

I don't know.

[Amy Odell]

You know.

[Guest 4]

Right.

[Chandler]

It's a little, A little naive of Bruce to think, okay, so let's just moving along to, you know, she obviously doesn't get into, like, the Ivy League schools that like. No, that was kind of interesting to me that they had to call in a favor to get her accepted to ucsb.

[Amy Odell]

Yeah, she didn't get into Vassar. Someone I talked to who went to Spence said, yeah, like, that should have been an easy school for a Spence student to get into. She didn't get in, but she didn't really intend to be in school. I think, like, that's how it sounded to me. Because she wanted to start her acting career, right.

[Chandler]

And pretty soon into, like, aft. I don't remember exactly. But pretty soon into, like, starting college, she gets a role and then she's like, I'm not gonna go back to college. And Bruce tells her he doesn't think she should go back.

[Guest 3]

Right.

[Chandler]

But then he cuts her off financially, which I also did not know. I didn't know that she had been, like, cut off to some degree.

[Amy Odell]

Yeah, he really did that, which I love.

[Chandler]

That gave me, like, respect for her and for him.

[Amy Odell]

She had to work really hard when he got her off. But one person who she worked with on a pilot that never made it to air called High, about a high school where she was like, of course, the popular girl said that Gwyneth would, like, ask him to borrow money.

[Chandler]

Yes, yes.

[Amy Odell]

Like, because her dad cut her off and then she never paid him back. And he's like, what's the interest on that?

[Chandler]

Oh, he should definitely be, you know, filing. Filing a case. I mean, there's a moment in the book where you say that, you know, she had to. She, like, would, like, scrape together quarters to go to Starbucks and then she would walk there to save gas. I mean, that is like a. That's a coming of age experience that I, like, respect her for having. And that. I guess she would call Bruce, tell him she was broke, ask for money, and he would say, no, but you're always welcome to come over for dinner. Obviously, people experience different versions of being cut off from their family for. You know, it's kind of like a cute picture to paint now. But I just. I found that to be refreshing that she really, like, did have to, like, struggle for it to some degree. You know, it was handed to her, but then there was a little bit of struggle.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

I mean, so here's what I'll say about the nepotism aspect of her career. Yes, nepotism is there. I don't think you can deny it. Of course, she. So she got those early parts at Williamstown when she was a child because she was Blythe's daughter and they love Blythe. Nico's called her baby Blythe. So Gwyneth would slot into those plays and she would do what she needed to do. It wasn't like she was bad. Like, she did a good job at school, right?

[Chandler]

She was talented.

[Amy Odell]

Yeah. She had talent. And so then she gets a manager through one of the plays that she did there that summer, like when she was, you know, older, say around 20.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

A manager comes up to her backstage and says, oh, my God, you are amazing. Like, I want to sign you. This is the same manager that developed Kevin Spacey. So she starts getting her auditions, and Bruce is furious because he wanted her to be in school.

[Guest 4]

Right.

[Amy Odell]

Because they felt like Bruce and Blythe felt like that was going to be her fallback plan.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

But she was not. She, like, didn't do any work at school.

[Guest 2]

Yes.

[Amy Odell]

She was not interested. She was working on her acting career. And then, you know, when she started auditioning for movies, what casting directors told me is that she, like, you, you would always see the kids of people like Bruce and Blythe.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

Because, you know, they're going to be comfortable in that environment.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

And then they're just curious.

[Chandler]

And I think they're all. They know to some degree.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

They're just like, can I. Oh, maybe she's the next Blythe Danner.

[Guest 2]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

You know, or like, maybe she's the next Meryl Streep. Like, yeah, you know, I want to break. You know, I want to find the next Life Danner. So she would. The doors would open for her because of that, and then. But then she would do. She would do really well.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

Like, people said she was really talented.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

I mean, she didn't get everything. Like, she. I have a scene in the book about how she auditioned for what About Bob? And she didn't get that, but Rip.

[Guest 3]

Love that.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

I think comedy. I don't know if comedy is her.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

Forte.

[Chandler]

Totally. I. I would agree. I think that the. The movies I've been. I mean, I like her more. I don't know if people will like this, you know, adjective, but I like her more. Unscripted comedy via Instagram.

[Amy Odell]

Exactly.

[Chandler]

You know, people probably think it's scripted, but I. Yeah, I think maybe comedy in, you know, in a film sense isn't the. The perfect fit for her. Isn't the best fit.

[Amy Odell]

Right.

[Chandler]

Okay. So she's beginning her acting career, getting these roles, doing, you know, a good job, getting some flops. Plenty of flops, actually.

[Amy Odell]

Many flops.

[Chandler]

Many flops.

[Lauren]

And she's dating.

[Chandler]

I want to talk now about kind of the love interests, the men in Gwyneth's life, because she. She dated Je D. Lots of people, but I think the biggest three would probably be Brad Pitt, Ben Affleck. And, you know, obviously Chris Martin, now Brad Falchuk.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

But I feel like those starting three are so. They're each so different from each other. And how do you think those, like, relationships shaped her?

[Lauren]

Yeah, let's dig into that a little bit more.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

So she met Brad through seven, the horror movie. I guess you call it a horror movie? Yeah, horror movie. Oh, my God. It's hard to watch. It's like a great. If you like horror movies, it's great.

[Chandler]

I don't.

[Amy Odell]

It's gross, but it's great. It's like David Fincher. Speaking of Kevin Spacey, he said, brad's in it. Morgan Freeman's in it. It's like a great movie.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

And she plays Brad Pitt's wife. And she was dating Donovan Leach at the time. And he was nervous about her going off to film this movie with Brad Pitt. I mean, like, her star was on the rise, understandably. And he was like model slash actor. Not, I don't think, doing as well.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

And also an EPO baby, because his dad is Donovan, who sang Mellow Yellow. But so she goes off to film seven, and then it's like someone told me who knew Brad or who was working on seven and knew Donovan's family, that Donovan just disappeared. And then it was just Brad. So they get together. They don't really hide it. They're holding hands on the set. People think there's this great sort of crackling chemistry between them when they're in the same airspace. And that really, I think, skyrocketed her from up and comer to tabloid celebrity. Yes.

[Chandler]

Suddenly she's forefront dating. I mean, also just the two of them together, like pictures of them. They are just two spectacularly gorgeous people. You know, I think Brad Pitt is trash, for the record. But, like, I just. I feel like I'm not.

[Amy Odell]

I don't want to defend him, but. Because obviously there have been some really disturbing reports about his behavior recently. But he. When Gwyneth was dating him, his. Her friends really liked him.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

And her dad really, really liked him. And her dad was kind of starstruck by it. He said to a friend, oh, my God, it's Brad Pitt.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

Like, and he was already the sexiest man alive on people.

[Chandler]

Right.

[Amy Odell]

But then her friends were like. Like, what I was told is that they just didn't seem to have that much in common.

[Guest 4]

Right.

[Amy Odell]

And she didn't feel like they had that much in common either, it seemed. Because there's a funny quote from her in an interview that I dug up where she says, now, Brad and I had very different upbringings. I have to say to Brad, this is Beluga and this is Osetra, because he grew up in Missouri.

[Chandler]

The Ozarks.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

In a very religious Baptist family. Very different from Gwyneth, who had this glamorous bicoastal childhood. So she felt like she was more sophisticated than him, smarter than him.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

He did more college than her, but he also didn't graduate.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

So friends just didn't think they had anything in common aside from being famous movie stars.

[Chandler]

But they date for a while. I mean, and then they.

[Amy Odell]

It was about three years, I think.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

And they got engaged also.

[Chandler]

I think I didn't fully clock the age difference there. Like there's, there's like 10 years.

[Amy Odell]

About 10 years older than him. I, I mean, I let readers draw their own conclusion about that. But I do say it. I think there's, there's a big difference between. There's probably. My personal opinion is there's probably a bigger difference between like a 30 year old and a 20 year old than a 40 year old and a 30 year old.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

You know, so she was around 20, he was around 30.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

Then she goes on to date Ben Affleck.

[Amy Odell]

She dates Matt. So. Yeah. So she meets Ben through Miramax.

[Guest 2]

And.

[Amy Odell]

Ben was a better match for her intellectually, people told me. And he, she liked that he wasn't just an actor reading lines. And this is why people said Gwyneth, like needed to do something like start goop, because it's boring to be an actor just reading lines. This was, you know, my source's observations. And Gwyneth is so smart and it's not enough for her.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

And people said that like, that acting came so naturally. Naturally to her that she seemed almost bored by it for sure. At a certain point. And so anyway, Ben, you know, he co wrote Good Will Hunting. He had, you know, more of an east coast upbringing. They said he was much smarter, but he wasn't able to like reciprocate. You know, her as a girlfriend. Like she was a very good girlfriend or her boyfriends, I was told. And like she would do things like make them dinner and then he would want to like go out with the guys.

[Guest 4]

Right.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

I mean, it would seem like where Brad Pitt was kind of maybe more those golden retriever boyfriend, Ben Affleck was the one who kind of always kept you guessing maybe a little bit.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

Less trustworthy.

[Amy Odell]

Her friends didn't. Did not like him for her. Yeah, I will say that.

[Chandler]

So Then Chris Martin then kind of comes out of nowhere. Obviously, you know, Bruce passes away. Did. Did Bruce pass away?

[Lauren]

And then she met Chris Martin?

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

Okay.

[Amy Odell]

So pretty soon thereafter, so she was living in London. I think she was starting to feel kind of fed up with Hollywood.

[Chandler]

You know, the tide was turned on her.

[Guest 4]

Right.

[Amy Odell]

Like, all the tide had turned on her. You know, people were starting to hate her unfairly, I would argue. And she. She did, like, View from the Top, like, big flops, and, like, she wanted to do comedy. It wasn't working out. She ends up in London doing a play with the director of Shakespeare in Love Proof, and, you know, trying to, like, reconnect with what she likes about her career. And anyway, around this period, she turns 30. She has a 30th birthday party in Italy. Her dad goes with her. Her dad is the love of her life, and he had throat cancer. And he was sick when she won her Oscar. He was, like, recovering, and he just. His health deteriorated. Like, he never really recovered from his treatment, and he just really quickly deteriorated. And he died on that trip. And she was alone.

[Chandler]

So traumatic.

[Amy Odell]

Horrible.

[Chandler]

Like, I can't. I actually, you know, reading the actual story of what happened, you know, that they had, like, had dinner, and then she realized that he was, like, actually quite sick and they should probably go to the hospital. And then he, like, passes away. Super.

[Amy Odell]

Happened really fast. Yeah.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

I mean, I can relate in a way. I lost my father when I was 27. I'm almost 40 now. Thank you. But it was sudden and it was sudden, and, like, there's just. I can relate to her when she talks about how you just can't explain it. It's like the world is moving around you, and you're just, like, dealing with this grief and this tragedy. And, you know, she says the way she talks about this period of her life is how she kind of started looking for answers. And she found them, I think, in the wellness. In the wellness world.

[Guest 4]

Right.

[Amy Odell]

But it's like, you know, we hear things our whole lives. Like, things happen for a reason. It's like, there's no reason.

[Chandler]

There's no reason.

[Amy Odell]

I hate that, you know, So I think it's very hard to grasp that type of tragedy. Like, enormous, enormous tragedy for her. Anyway, so she's dealing with her grief. She's back in London, and she goes to a Coldplay concert. She describes Coldplay as, like, her grieving music. She goes to a concert. She ends up. She has said that the tabloids were falsely writing that they were dating. And then Chris Martin's assistant finds her and is like, oh, do you want to meet your boyfriend? Like, haha. And then they hit it off and he was there for her at this vulnerable time for her when she was grieving her dad and helping her through that. But friends also said that, like, they just didn't seem to have the chemistry.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

And she also wanted to settle down because her friends from Spence, who she stayed friends with, like her whole life, they were starting to get married, have kids, and she wanted to do that too.

[Chandler]

Well, and I think when you have a big tragic life event, it just kind of makes you reconsider, like, where am I at? What am I doing? What really matters to me, you know? And like, and Chris Martin just, you know, seem. Even though, even if they weren't a perfect match, like, he seems like a really, he seems like a lovely person.

[Amy Odell]

People said, you know, they're both great parents.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

They really committed to conscious uncoupling.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

I mean, I, I think you have to say so many celebrity divorces go so terribly south. And to their credit, they have done a lovely job. And I think they do. They did, like, set an example.

[Amy Odell]

They did. And I think I get the sense that she, she wishes that that was pointed out more.

[Chandler]

Right.

[Amy Odell]

I think so many people, their lives have been affected by divorce in some way.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

And so many people know how ugly it can get and how hard it can be on children particularly, and families in general.

[Guest 4]

Right.

[Amy Odell]

So the fact that they can be around each other is like, I think.

[Chandler]

They can go on vacation together.

[Amy Odell]

I think that's awesome.

[Chandler]

It's amazing that, that.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

They can go on vacation. I mean, I think that's awesome.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

But they were, they really did work on it.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

And I think that I really appreciate all of her chatter about divorce. Even though the conscious uncoupling thing, you know, got so much like heat and eye roll. So many eye rolls.

[Amy Odell]

When she made that announcement, she did it through goop, which drove so much traffic to GOOP that the site crashed.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

There was this ridiculous article by this guy that she likes who her staff viewed as just sort of a, you know, like a charlatan. Someone told me, but he's called Dr. Sadegi and he did this whole long article about it and it was just so ridiculous.

[Chandler]

Yeah, I'm sure it was just, I think a bunch of like, gobbledygook, like, mumbo. Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

It was just very like, woo, woo. And I think people just like, didn get it right.

[Chandler]

It was definitely ahead of its Time, like. And I think. And you make the point in the book, like, oh, now her divorce is better than ours, you know, like.

[Amy Odell]

Yeah, I think that was the tone around it.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

But I do think she set a positive example.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

Okay. So I think we would, you know, be remiss if we didn't talk about Miramax, Harvey Weinstein. I think that what we learn in the book, you know, is that Gwyneth played a really pivotal role in getting a lot of other women to speak up. Can you talk about that more?

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

So Gwyneth found a lot of success at Miramax, which was run by Harvey Weinstein and his brother Bob. And I talked to many, many people who worked at Miramax for both of them. And they said, you know, like, Harvey was really difficult. Like a really difficult boss.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

And she came out and yeah, to put it politely, I would say moody. Like, really difficult. They called him, like the H bomb. Because he would just like blow up on people. Some of the staff, like, he had a private jet at one point. Like, some of the staff just like, did not want to be on that jet with him. And they said they would say that they would bring shiny rocks to distract him. And the best shiny rock was a movie star. Like, he loved movie stars. And Gwyneth, someone said, like, you know, he could go into star making mode, you know, when he decides he wants to really build someone up. And people said that Gwyneth was like his Grace Kelly.

[Guest 3]

Wow.

[Chandler]

And so, you know, obviously it's interesting. You know, there's a moment where he talks about not giving her this role that had like a more like lewd scene. Cause he didn't want to do that to Bruce's daughter or something like that. But then he puts the moves on her, like, and, like, you know, attempts to sexually assault her. And, you know, she's somehow able to escape from that situation. Brad Pitt confronts him. But then, you know, we don't really know about any of this till years and years later.

[Guest 3]

Yeah, yeah.

[Amy Odell]

And there was something that happened during Emma filming. Emma, which was in England. They filmed in England. And he showed up. It's not like he was there the whole time, but he showed up. And she was uncomfortable.

[Chandler]

Yeah, of course. I mean, obviously after someone's made that.

[Amy Odell]

Someone said it made for an awkward day of shooting because she had. I believe what happened was she had told at least someone on that production, like a senior producer or something, maybe, you know, that. That he tried to give her a massage or something like, like, and she was very uncomfortable so, yeah. Yeah, obviously, like, you know, that was terrible that she had to work with somebody like that.

[Guest 4]

Right.

[Chandler]

I mean, and then right before the MeToo story breaks, I. I thought this little anecdote was crazy that, you know, she's speaking with Megan and Jody, you know, obviously the two journalists who broke the Me Too story, and Jodi Kanter and Megan Tuohy. Right.

[Amy Odell]

That's right.

[Chandler]

Anyway, and she's given. She's talked to them about her experiences, and then she's throwing a party, like, one of these weekends in the Hamptons, and she finds out that Harvey is coming, and she's. She calls them from, like, a lot, like, the bathroom in her house, and she's like, what do I do? Like, I just. I thought that it was crazy to see, like, to hear about Gwyneth Paltrow, obviously being years and years past this experience, having, you know, like, after the incident. She does have positive experiences with Harvey, but then, you know, years and years later, he's still just this awful, scary force.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

And that story that you told, that came from Megan and Jody's book about the whole thing.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

So I want to give them credit for that. Well, a lot of people had been trying, or not a lot of people, but other reporters had been trying to do the story.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Amy Odell]

And she had been. She knew that. Gwyneth knew that, and he knew that, and he was trying to get people, you know, to not talk to these reporters. Right.

[Guest 3]

So.

[Amy Odell]

Yeah. And obviously, I mean, I remember when that story broke as a journalist, because I somehow knew, just as being a journalist in New York, that he. That he had that reputation. And I was like, when it broke, I was like, oh, my God, like, someone finally managed to break the story.

[Guest 4]

Right, Right.

[Chandler]

It was like the biggest open secret. Well, Amy, thank you so much for, you know, writing this incredible, masterful book on.

[Amy Odell]

Thank you.

[Chandler]

You know, a woman we worship, Gwyneth Paltrow. I feel like it just gives our audience readers just such a complete portrait of her life and her lore. And so, anyway, everyone make sure that you pick up a copy of Gwyneth the biography. It's out July 29th. Actually, I think it'll be out by the time this episode is live, so everyone go order the book. Thanks for being on. Pop Apologists.

[Amy Odell]

Thank you so much. This was great.

[Chandler]

It was so fun. Thank you.

[Guest 1]

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[Amy Odell]

Bon appetit.

[Guest 1]

All for free on your favorite devices. Pluto TV Stream now pay never.

[Kaitlyn Bristowe]

To sing along. I'm Kaitlyn Bristow, host of off the Vine Podcast, where I get real, maybe.

[Chandler]

A little too real sometimes with my.

[Kaitlyn Bristowe]

Friends and celeb guests from Bachelor Franchise and beyond. I'm talking guests like Jonathan Van Ness, Nikki Glaser, Wells Adams, Elise Meyers.

[Amy Odell]

Just like in this, like, business jacket. Like, I would love some tacos.

[Kaitlyn Bristowe]

Heidi d', Amelio, Big Brother's Taylor Hale. I have to bring it up because it happened and we're gonna get through it.

[Amy Odell]

What'd I do?

[Kaitlyn Bristowe]

And so many more. So come hang out with us. Hear ridiculous confessions and get a little vulnerable. Because you know what? We're all just floating on this weird little planet together. Follow rate and review off the Divine Podcast Wherever you listen to your podcast.