Pop Apologists – Episode 294: Nepo Babies Deep Dive! ZOË KRAVITZ & GRACIE ABRAMS Original Air Date: September 17, 2025 – PodcastOne

episode overview

Theme:
Sisters Lauren and Chandler take listeners on a deep dive into the lives, careers, and love lives of two high-profile “Nepo babies”: Zoë Kravitz and Gracie Abrams. Both are riding high in pop culture—Zoë for her acting and distinctive cool-girl status, and Gracie for her rapid ascent in the singer-songwriter world. The episode explores family backgrounds, formative experiences, career highlights, pivotal relationships, friend circles, and public controversies, all within the wider context of privilege, talent, and the "Nepo baby" discourse.

zoë kravitz: origin, upbringing, & family (08:23 – 23:10)

Background & Family:

• Born December 1, 1988 in Los Angeles to rock musician Lenny Kravitz and actress Lisa Bonet.
• “Lenny Kravitz is primarily a famous musician, right?” (09:44) - Chandler
• Granddaughter of TV trailblazer Roxie Roker—one of the first to portray an interracial couple on television.

Lenny: the original Nepo Baby

• Lenny’s own privilege and multi-hyphenate status (music, acting, fashion).
• Anecdote: Lenny’s celibacy and “incredible body” are discussed with humor.
  • “I just am impressed he’s such a spiritual man...and he refuses to. Well, I think we’d be remiss if we didn’t just quickly comment on his physique.” (13:23) - Lauren

Lisa Bonet:

• 1980s icon as Denise Huxtable on The Cosby Show.
• Praised as “absolutely breathtaking” and “God’s favorite” for her style and presence.

Parents’ Divorce & Upbringing:

• Lenny and Lisa divorced when Zoë was five.
• Zoë split time between Bonet’s Topanga Canyon oasis (creative, strict, TV-free, nature-loving) and Lenny’s rockstar Miami (loud, indulgent, flashy).
  • Zoë on the contrast: “I’m not allowed to eat cheese…I’m not allowed to watch TV. Then there’s my dad…there’s Pop-Tarts and people everywhere. As a kid, you’re just like: that one.” (22:15 – from Armchair Expert).

Formative Influence & Struggles:

• Decision to move to Miami at 11 to be with Lenny, but found the move isolating as Lenny was often on tour.
• Struggled fitting in, developed an eating disorder:
  • “I was a chunky, perfectly normal looking 15-year-old, but I had this remarkably beautiful, skinny mother and a father who was dating a supermodel…It’s a disease and I never let myself forget that.” (27:09)

creative journey & career milestones (29:00 – 45:48)

Acting Path (“Nepo Baby Course”):

• Studied at arts schools: Miami Country Day, Rudolf Steiner in NYC, State University of New York at Purchase.
• Joined indie music project Lolawolf (named after her half-siblings) – quick music sample and playful commentary.
• Early film roles: “No Reservations” (2007), “The Brave One” (2007)
• Breakthrough: Roles in “X-Men: First Class,” “Divergent” series, “Mad Max: Fury Road.”
• Star-making TV role: Bonnie in “Big Little Lies” (2017)
  • “What began as a small supporting part became one of the series’ most emotionally pivotal arcs.” (41:50)

Mainstream Movie Stardom:

• Played Catwoman opposite Robert Pattinson in “The Batman” (2022).
• Zoë on Catwoman:
  • “It’s wild. It’s one of those things you never…I never even considered could happen…rare to be a part of a film where the making is as intense as the coming out of the film.” (44:15 – interview clip)
• Time Magazine’s Top 100 Most Influential People (2022).

Directorial Debut:

• Directed psychological thriller “Blink Twice” (originally “Pussy Island”), exploring gender, privilege, and power.
  • “It’s basically a movie about, like, not Epstein Island, but kind of what happens at Hollywood parties where it’s like, a Diddy movie essentially.” (48:55 – Chandler)
  • Film doubled its $20M budget and garnered critical praise.

fashion icon & inner circle (54:04 – 58:50)

Fashion & Culture Status

• Key ambassador for Saint Laurent & YSL Beauty since 2016.
• Notable YSL campaign quote:
  • “London, go very hard…You are allowed to get as wild and weird as you want…Sipping on some whiskey and putting on makeup—it’s fun.” (56:40 – Zoë, YSL Beauty video)

Hollywood Circle:

• Core friends: Cara Delevingne, Taylor Swift, Miley Cyrus, Rihanna.
• Anecdote: Quarantining at Taylor Swift’s house during wildfires, Lisa Bonet’s pet snake escapes and disrupts Taylor’s historic LA home.
  • “The snake got loose in Taylor’s bathroom...which, I never thought about this, but it’s kind of fitting because snakes are a part of Taylor’s identity.” (59:43 – Lauren)

zoë’s dating history: the ultimate cool-girl roster (1:01:18 – 1:25:55)

Notable Relationships:

• Ben Foster (2007), Ezra Miller, Penn Badgley (praised as “real, true earth-shattering love”), Michael Fassbender, Drake, Twin Shadow.
• Married Karl Glusman (2019–2021); low-key, Vogue-featured Paris wedding but ultimately diverged over lifestyles.
• Dated Channing Tatum (met during “Blink Twice,” engaged 2023, split 2024).
  • On Channing:
    • “I felt even from afar…that he was a feminist and wasn’t afraid of exploring that darkness.” (1:23:41 – Zoë)
• Briefly linked to Noah Centineo (dismissed as “kind of a Disney star”) and rumored with Austin Butler (humorously fawned over by hosts).
• Currently dating Harry Styles, hand-in-hand all over London, Lenny Kravitz-approved.

Memorable Commentary:

• “One of my favorite memes…it’s a picture of Zoë and about six of her boyfriends. And it says, ‘This is the greed they talk about in the Bible.’” (1:03:13 – Lauren)
• On Channing:
  • “She didn’t need a man to help her.” (1:17:42 – Chandler)

controversies & “nepo baby” discussions (1:25:56 – 1:32:49)

Notable “scandals”:

• Oscars 2022: Criticized Will Smith’s slap on Instagram (“here’s a picture of my dress at the show where we apparently are assaulting people on stage now” – deleted after backlash).
• 2013 joke about Jaden Smith’s age resurfacing as “creepy,” but context is clearly tongue-in-cheek.
  • “You know, men have done a lot worse.” (1:29:19)
• On nepotism:
  • “It’s completely normal for people to be in the family business. That’s why last names exist.” (1:31:27)

Hosts’ Analysis:

• Both stress that talent and work, not just family connections, underpin sustained success.
• “If you’re a celebrity child…that doesn’t mean you’re going to keep getting roles…Talent matters.” (1:33:40 – Chandler)

gracie abrams: origin, privilege, & creative roots (1:34:21 – 1:43:34)

Background:

• Born September 7, 1999, LA; daughter of major Hollywood producer J.J. Abrams (estimated net worth $500M) and philanthropist/exec Katie McGrath.
  • “This is not like Gwyneth Paltrow…she is from an ultra, ultra-wealthy family.” (1:36:15 – Lauren)

Early Life:

• Attended elite Archer School for Girls, then Barnard College, NY (cute stories about humble college apartments).
• Started writing songs at 8:
  • “I was lucky enough to grow up in a house with a piano…” (1:39:20) – Gracie, tongue-in-cheek, prompting hosts’ gentle ribbing.
  • Credits her third-grade teacher and journaling for songwriting start.

On Stage Nerves:

• “The concept of performing to a human being made me terrified… night before my first show I was projectile vomiting, like, so, so scared.” (1:41:39 – Fallon interview)

career & musical style (1:43:35 – 1:58:12)

Indie Beginnings to Pop Stardom:

• Gained early traction on SoundCloud with demos and intimate bedroom tracks.
• Debut EP: “minor” (2020) – song “I miss you, I’m sorry” becomes TikTok pandemic anthem.
  • Live quarantine performance highlighted:
  • “Just beautiful. Very, very beautiful voice…her writing these songs, that’s not something her parents bought for her.” (1:49:50)

Big Breaks:

• Supported Olivia Rodrigo’s Sour Tour (2022).
• Opened for Taylor Swift’s Eras Tour (2024–25):
  • Close mentorship with Taylor Swift/Aaron Dessner (“Us” collab and Instagram cake-fire-panic moment).

Hosts’ Personal Endorsement:

• “There’s something so emotionally resonant and honest and simple about her music. It’s very Joni Mitchell…” (1:46:54 – Chandler)

fame, friendships, and the taylor swift connection (1:58:13 – 2:03:09)

Circle of Friends:

• Moody, artist-centric: Taylor Swift, Olivia Rodrigo, Phoebe Bridgers, Clairo, Daisy Edgar-Jones.

Taylor Swift Bond:

• Taylor calls Gracie, “one of the most gifted young storytellers of her generation.”
• Noted moment: Taylor asks Eras Tour crowd to show Gracie more warmth as special guest.
• “There’s a cute bond between the two of them… I love that they’re friends.” (1:53:25)

Navigating Pop Cliques:

• Tension between Taylor and Olivia Rodrigo, complicated further by overlaps with Phoebe Bridgers and Daisy Edgar-Jones.

love, lore, and the “sad indie girl” quadrangle (2:04:30 – 2:24:01)

Main Relationships:

• Jake Slatkin (producer, five years).
• Paul Mescal (emerged publicly 2024; famously complicated backstory connecting Phoebe Bridgers and Daisy Edgar-Jones).

The Paul-Phoebe-Daisy-Gracie Web:

• Paul Mescal: Rose to fame through “Normal People” (co-star Daisy), then began high-profile romance (and breakup) with indie musician Phoebe Bridgers.
• Phoebe & Paul’s chemistry notable – Met Gala moment scrutinized for lingering looks at Daisy.
• Gracie enters: Starts dating Paul in 2024 (“Free Now” reportedly about early relationship turmoil).
  • Gracie’s lyric:
    • “It’s so good…and knowing that they’re together now, I would encourage you to listen.” (2:12:56)
• All parties remain at least publicly cordial (hugs at award shows), but online stans and memes abound.
  • “These circles are just incestuous.” (2:23:02 – Lauren)

Fan Memes & Social Media:

• Micro-scandal: Some fans blame Gracie for various pop culture woes—facetiously.
  • “If anything goes wrong, it’s Gracie Abrams’ fault.” (2:24:12)
• Popular internet joke: Gracie never wears her sweater simply, always revealing her abs.

scandal sheet & nepo baby discourse (2:13:20 – 2:24:38)

Controversies:

• SNL (Dec. 2024): Gracie’s remark about “cheating the system” sparks minor backlash.
• Criticized for being called an “industry plant” due to Eras Tour slot.
• The real focus: romantic “scandals”—her connection to Paul Mescal, overlap with Phoebe Bridgers, Daisy Edgar-Jones.

Hosts’ Take:

• All agree, real artistry and perseverance set these women apart from less-talented “Nepo babies.”
  • “Talent matters…There’s plenty of famous people’s kids who do not turn out to be all that great at the craft.” (1:33:40 – Chandler)

memorable quotes & moments

• On Nepo Babies
  • “It’s completely normal for people to be in the family business. That’s why last names exist.” – Zoë Kravitz (1:31:27)
  • “[Zoë] has a big role. Yes, she absolutely does.” (Big Little Lies) – Lauren (42:17)
  • “She’s a cool girl. She’s an it girl. There’s no getting around it.” – Chandler (55:20)
  • “What I realized is some people are missing from this list. She’s dated so many guys—it’s quite shocking…I mean, of course she has! Look at her.” – Lauren (1:04:05)
  • “Hosts note: We would all do the exact same thing.” (On Nepo privilege) – Lauren & Chandler (1:31:58)
  • “If you’re a celebrity child…you might be able to get the audition. That doesn’t mean you’re going to get the role.” – Chandler (1:33:45)
• On Gracie Abrams’ Songwriting
  • “It almost made me emotional. It’s so good.” – Chandler (2:12:47)
• On Hollywood Friend Groups
  • “These circles are incestuous. Taylor is just Atlas—the world on her shoulders.” – Lauren (2:23:09)
• On Fashion & Vibe
  • “Speaking of fashion…I think about the fact that Taylor Swift promoted [Blink Twice]…because it was a powerful film.” – Lauren (52:05)

conclusion (2:25:00)

The sisters reflect on the wild, intertwined journeys of Zoë Kravitz and Gracie Abrams, noting how privilege opened doors, but artistry, charisma, and real-world complexity keeps these women not only in the conversation, but at its forefront. They invite suggestions for future “Nepo Baby” deep dives and thank listeners for the ride down “Nepo Baby Lane.”

Timestamps (MM:SS)

• 08:23 – Zoë’s Family Origins & Upbringing
• 22:15 – Zoë Describes Childhood Split Between Parents
• 27:09 – Zoë’s Eating Disorder Struggles
• 41:50 – Big Little Lies & TV Breakthrough
• 44:15 – Zoë on Catwoman (Interview Audio)
• 54:04 – Zoë’s Fashion & YSL Partnership
• 56:40 – Zoë’s Cool Girl Vibe (YSL Quote)
• 59:43 – Taylor Swift Wildfire Snake Story
• 1:03:13 – Meme: “This is the greed from the Bible”
• 1:23:41 – On Dating Channing Tatum
• 1:31:27 – Zoë on Nepotism: “That’s why last names exist.”
• 1:33:40 – Hosts on Nepo Privilege and Real Talent
• 1:36:15 – Gracie’s Ultra-Privilege
• 1:41:39 – Gracie Onstage Panic (Fallon Clip)
• 1:46:54 – On Gracie’s “Joni Mitchell” Vibe
• 1:49:50 – Commentary: Real Songwriting Talent
• 2:12:56 – Gracie’s “Free Now,” Paul Mescal Song
• 2:23:02 – Final Reflection on Celebrity Circles

A comprehensive, funny, and honest look at the “Nepo baby” phenomenon—a must-listen for pop culture aficionados and anyone curious about celebrity, creativity, and the sometimes messy, always fascinating world of the famous and their progeny.