315: Inside Celeb Divorces of 2025 + Your Family Law Questions Answered (ft. Our Dad, John Bledsoe)

Summary

Pop Apologists Ep. 315: Inside Celeb Divorces of 2025 + Your Family Law Questions Answered (ft. Our Dad, John Bledsoe)

Podcast Date: December 31, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this highly engaging and humorous episode, the Pop Apologists sisters are joined once again by their father, John Bledsoe—a seasoned divorce attorney—to dissect the buzziest celebrity divorces of 2025, answer listener family law questions, and share practical (and sometimes sobering) advice about marriage, prenups, substance abuse, and post-divorce realities. With references to current pop culture dramas (Taylor + Travis, “Golden Bachelor”, RHOBH, and more), the episode combines legal expertise, personal anecdotes, and the sisters’ signature banter to create a fun, informative, and insightful finale to the year.

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Main Themes

• Celebrity divorce breakdowns: What really happens with prenups, asset division, and special circumstances (like sobriety clauses).
• Divorce law demystified: Common myths busted and practical advice shared for real-life situations—spousal support, handling addiction, dating during divorce, and more.
• Listener questions answered: Real family law concerns, from trusts to second marriages to safeguarding assets.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Taylor Swift & Travis Kelce: The Prenup Dilemma

[03:39–10:38]

• Advice for Taylor & Travis: John Bledsoe weighs in on prenup strategies for a high-profile, high-asset couple.
  • Taylor’s assets are largely her own IP; Travis’s income is “finite”—so Taylor needs protection.
  • “I feel like prenups are, in most cases, probably not necessary if people take certain precautions to safeguard their money.” —John [07:32]
• The importance of keeping accounts and assets segregated; even without a prenup, property brought into a marriage and kept separate may remain separate.
• Emotional implications of prenups: can feel like “one foot sticking out” of the marriage (John: [08:25]).
• “It seems like you’re kind of married, but also not really.” —C [08:49]
• Examples and celebrity references (Donald Trump and Marla Maples’ time-limited prenup).

2. 10-Year Marriage Rule & Spousal Support

[10:38–12:14]

• California law: Under 10 years, spousal support may not last more than half the marriage duration; over 10 years, support can last indefinitely until death or remarriage.
• “I had a situation one time where they actually had a fight on their 10th wedding anniversary...” —John [11:50]

3. Nicole Kidman & Keith Urban: Prenup Sobriety Clauses

[12:15–13:53]

• Unique prenup clause that pays Urban a sum for each year of sobriety.
• Such clauses are enforceable if written into the agreement.
• Proving compliance: burden of proof and kinds of evidence matter.

4. Golden Bachelor Divorce - Elder Marriages & Estates

[14:06–16:48]

• Misconceptions about late-in-life marriage and inheritance protections.
• Assets kept separate (not commingled) do not automatically go to the spouse.
• Without a will/trust:
  • If one child: spouse and child split 50/50.
  • Multiple children: spouse gets 1/3, children split 2/3.
  • “If you don’t have a will, the government makes a will for you.” —John [17:15]

5. Denise Richards & Aaron Phypers: Income Concealment & Domestic Violence

[20:05–23:34]

• Spousal claims of no income: courts use tax returns as the “presumptively correct” measure ([20:55]).
• Domestic violence factors can reduce or eliminate spousal support.
• Five-year restraining orders are rare, and imply substantial abuse; can impact custody and financial outcomes.

6. Vocational Evaluations in Divorce

[24:01–31:28, 30:07–31:28]

• Courts can impute income based on earning potential, not just reported wages.
• Vocational evaluations are “one of the easiest things to get a judge to order” and can dramatically affect support calculations.

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Notable Listener Questions & Legal Advice

7. Divorcing an Addict/Alcoholic Spouse

[33:34–37:37]

• John’s advice is direct: “If your spouse has a drinking problem…and they’re not willing to really get help, you need to get the hell out of there as fast as you can.” [33:52]
• Discusses SoberLink and court-ordered monitoring/protections for children.
• Courts distinguish use v. abuse (alcohol, Rx drugs seen differently than marijuana).

8. Real Housewives Case: Living Separate Lives & Asset Protection

[26:32–29:53]

• Even if not legally separated, separate lives can be taken as de facto separation in court.
• Date of separation impacts what is considered community property.

9. Property Division—Gifts, Inheritance, Separate/Community Property

[39:05–40:13]

• Gifts of “personal nature” (jewelry) are typically separate property; cars bought for spouse and paid off may still be community.
• Assets earned during marriage are community unless expressly agreed otherwise via prenup.

10. Unmarried Couples—Legal Protections

[40:14–41:17]

• “You better earn your own money and be able to provide for yourself because…you’re not going to be able to depend on him for any type of financial support.” —John [40:29]
• No marriage, no legal right to assets/support, regardless of duration.

11. Second Marriages, Step-Children, and Resource Allocation

[41:27–42:19]

• Resource conflicts between new spouses’ respective children are a major point of contention.

12. Dating During Divorce

[42:27–43:18]

• Generally, the court doesn’t care unless it impacts children (eg, unsavory individuals around minors).

13. Handling Secret Gambling or Financial Misconduct

[49:51–53:16]

• “Don’t give them access to money where they can do it again…Maybe you need to have a postnuptial agreement.” —John [50:11]
• Breach of fiduciary duty (misuse of marital funds) is a serious and sometimes irreparable issue.

14. Going Without Attorneys in Divorce/Mediation

[53:21–55:16]

• Biggest risk: One spouse may have “hidden” legal counsel and exploit the other.
• Never attend mediation without at least a consultation with a lawyer.
• “It’s a terrible idea to go to a mediation without an attorney. It's just not a good idea.” —John [55:16]

15. Are People Happier After Divorce?

[55:41–56:35]

• “I think a lot of people could stay together if they could forgive and move on…I think there are things though that you cannot, you know, like adultery, addiction, abuse…” —John [55:59]

16. Emotional Abuse in Divorce Court

[56:36–58:27]

• Emotional abuse is now more widely considered in court—may fall under “domestic violence” if pattern is evident.
• Courts look for repeated/persistent abuse, not one-time incidents.

17. Red Flags in Dating Divorced Men

[46:08–47:43]

• Substance abuse, estrangement from friends/family, how they treat servers or others who can’t “do anything for them,” and ignoring family/friend warnings are key warning signs.

18. Trusts and When Heirs Get Paid

[43:30–43:53]

• “Whatever the trust says…You gotta reach out to the trustees.” —John

19. Higher-Earning Spouses & Inheritance

[43:53–45:39]

• Assets are split evenly, but inherited money can impact support if it's substantial.
• Income from inheritance may reduce what one spouse has to pay the other.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “There's something bipartisan about how we can all reach across the aisle and be grateful for this union.” —C, about Taylor & Travis [06:09]
• “It puts a shovel in your marriage, if you will, or it puts something in there you don’t want.” —John, on overreaching prenups [07:32]
• “If you don't have a will, the government makes a will for you…” —John [17:15]
• “You want to get a vocational evaluation… those pay for themselves very quickly.” —John [30:07]
• “If your spouse has a drinking problem…and they’re not willing to really get help, you need to get the hell out of there as fast as you can…” —John [33:52]
• “I’m bereft.” —A, after learning about no financial rights in long-term, unmarried partnerships [40:55]
• “You don’t want to be in a situation where the guy you’re dating happens to be a registered sex offender. That’s a problem.” —John [43:11]
• “Don’t give them access to money where they can do it again…” —John, about spouse’s gambling secrecy [50:11]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:39 – Taylor Swift & Travis Kelce prenup discussion
• 10:38 – The importance of the 10-year marriage rule
• 12:15 – Nicole Kidman & Keith Urban’s “sobriety clause”
• 14:06 – Golden Bachelor marriage & estate planning
• 20:05 – Denise Richards, income hiding, and domestic violence effects
• 26:32 – Real Housewives separation without legal filing
• 33:36 – Divorcing an addict/alcoholic spouse
• 39:05 – Property division: gifts vs. earnings
• 40:14 – Legal rights (or lack thereof) for unmarried couples
• 46:08 – Red flags in dating divorced men
• 49:51 – Financial misconduct: gambling spouse
• 53:21 – Risks of avoiding legal counsel in divorce
• 56:36 – Emotional abuse considerations in divorce court

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Final Thoughts and Tone

The episode artfully mixes legal reality with entertainment, tackling sometimes-difficult topics with empathy, wisdom, and sharp humor. John’s presence as “dad attorney” brings a trusted, practical voice, while the sisters keep things lively, curious, and relatable. If you want to understand how divorce—and the law around it—actually works, with a pop culture twist, this is a must-listen.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[C]

Well, well, well. As we close out 2025, everyone. Yes. This episode is coming out on December 31, 2025. The holiday season has concluded. And you know what begins? The season of divorce and family dissolution. Because growing up, I always heard mom and dad say that, you know, after the holidays were over, it became busy season. People want to wait till Christmas is done till they break up their families. And we thought, what better way to.

[A]

Kick off the new year to ring it all in.

[C]

Yeah, to start the year on a great note. Then to get into celebrity divorces. Divorce questions people have. I mean, it just feels like a perfect way to end 2025 and start 2026.

[B]

Let's people want to keep their New Year's resolutions and get rid of that spouse.

[A]

I do remember hearing that as well, Lauren. I do remember hearing that. In fact, December is kind of a slow month because nobody wants to do it right before Christmas, but that. Yeah, January and February, business really picks up.

[B]

January's a very big month.

[C]

Have you thought about what you're gonna buy with all the money you're about.

[B]

To make some more bling.

[A]

Just like your daughter. Also, everybody, we haven't really introduced. Who's. Who's the third person here, but it's our dad. Our amazing dad. Our divorce attorney father is here on the show today. You're right.

[C]

We haven't. We haven't introduced you, dad. And I just assume people know who you are because every time you come on the show, we get so many. We get emails, we get dms. We get so many people that love your episode. And did you know your episode last year was one of our top performing episodes?

[B]

Wow.

[C]

I know.

[A]

Somebody wrote in and they said you.

[B]

Must have a lot of very elderly women.

[C]

They have a crush on you, probably.

[A]

Well, yeah. There's no way they could want helpful divorce information.

[C]

If you want to all know where we got our confidence from. It's genetic, clearly.

[A]

Um, but yes, we're here to dig into some celebrity divorces, some questions from our audience. Where should we begin?

[C]

Well, I think that before we get into the heartbreak of it all, let's talk about a marriage that is forthcoming and definitely not yet in the process of divorce, which is that of Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce. So I feel like I would love to hear your thoughts, dad, on your advice for Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce as they approach this matrimonial union under the eyes of God and lady justice. What can they do to prepare to protect their assets? How do you even do this? Okay, if you are Taylor Swift, you're a billionaire, you have crazy assets, you have all this IP to your music catalog. You're going to be printing money forever. And you're marrying Travis Kelce, who has a finite career. You know, those checks are going to dry up unless he reinvents himself. So what does she do? How does she come kind of protect herself while also, I don't know, like, how do they do this?

[B]

Well, just by way of comment, I want to say first about Taylor Swift. I thought it was very fun for all of us when they started dating and all that, because I knew, certainly we knew Taylor Swift. I on more than one occasion drove a van full of probably 11 or 12 females. And me driving up to Taylor Swift concert and all throughout the years we've done that and many times. Those are some great memories, the concerts we attended together. And then she starts dating Travis Kelce.

[A]

Puts him on the Map.

[B]

I thought he was really very much on the map as a football player. He was. I mean, the guy is very clutch. He's made. I mean, he was very, very good and still is very, very good. Tries really hard. He's a really effort player. And anyway, I thought it was fun for us to be talking about that. And then you could see her going in, and she'd be in the box with his parents, and she'd. Pretty soon she'd have his jersey on. And it kind of brought me back to the old high school thing. The girlfriend's wearing the jersey, and it was very high school, very fun. So high school for all of us to watch. So high school and, you know, and. And then it's pretty amazing. I thought, you know, they both have Midwestern background and all that, and Midwestern.

[A]

Values, but I think.

[C]

Yeah, similar family values, for sure.

[B]

And so it is very exciting for America to have that distraction of Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce.

[C]

I think there's something bipartisan about how we can all reach across the aisle and be grateful for this union.

[A]

Right, right. So.

[B]

So I think a prenup, though, for them. I mean, obviously she has to have it. Although I think prenups actually, if you just segregate your money and keep it in an account with your own name on it, at least, certainly what you bring into the marriage, that alone will keep that money separate. And in terms of a divorce, you really can't trace money or take money that you're. Your spouse brought it in the marriage.

[C]

What about if you have no prenup?

[B]

Even if you have no prenup, you.

[C]

Have no prenup, but you keep your bank account separate.

[B]

Yeah. If you bring a million dollars into the marriage and you have in this bank account, bank of America or whatever, and it's in your name, and that account just stays there. And you never commingle. Money that's earned during the marriage, you leave that account. That account is going to stay your separate.

[C]

I thought that it was considered community property.

[B]

Just because you marry somebody, your property does not become their property.

[C]

But what about money you make during the marriage?

[B]

Money you make during the marriage? You put that in a different account. Maybe you put that in a community account. I do think that prenups. I mean, obviously Taylor Swift, she's going to. She feels like she's going to need one. Although he has substantial amounts of his own money.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But I feel like prenups are, in most cases, probably not necessary if people take certain precautions to safeguard their money. I don't like it. And I don't like it when the prenup is overreaching, where the person says, everything I do in the marriage, everything I earn is going to be mine or anything. All my efforts are going to be mine, not the community's. I don't think that's great. I think it puts a shovel in your marriage, if you will, or it puts something in there you don't want. And I think there are a lot of unhappy spouses who think they should not have signed the prenup.

[C]

Really?

[A]

It, like, sort of kicks off some resentment almost.

[B]

Yeah, I think so.

[A]

So you're not necessarily pro a prenup.

[B]

I mean, I think there are times when you need. There are situations where you need them, but I'm not super pro prenup.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

If you want to. In terms of humanity, in terms of wanting to have a good marriage, in terms of wanting to be all in, that's really kind of like one foot sticking out, I guess.

[C]

Yeah, that was my question with them. It's like, how can you have that feeling of, like, being. Being all in with someone if you have this, like, crazy, ironclad prenuptial agreement that just separates all of your money? It seems like you're. You're kind of married, but also not really. But maybe that's just.

[B]

Well, you're not all in.

[A]

Well, and.

[C]

But maybe that's just something like. Maybe that's something you give up as a billionaire. You know, it's just one of the.

[A]

One of the negatives, something I've thought about with their potential prenup because I've spent a lot of time thinking about this.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

In my day to day, I wonder if it's a situation where, you know, if they get a divorce, heaven forbid, God forbid, that it's like, no matter what, you will get this. This payout. That payout will not change. Would that ever be the case where it's. Where it's like, there's just a standard payout that is agreed upon before the marriage. If you. If you were to divorce where she would pay him a lump sum, it can be that. That, you know, that wouldn't necessarily change.

[B]

Or sometimes you can do a situation where, say, if a marriage lasts 10 years, then the prenup goes away. And I understand.

[A]

Oh, that's interesting.

[B]

Donald Trump, when he was married to Marla Maples, they had some type of. They definitely had a prenup, but they had some type of time period where if the marriage went beyond this time period, then the prenup went away. And I think Trump divorced her before the time period. Right before the time period expires. Now, I think that's sort of a rumor, but I think that's.

[C]

Did you cheat on him too, though?

[B]

Don't recall.

[C]

No, I don't recall. I'm not here to defend Donald Trump, that's for sure.

[B]

So on the prenup, I think if you go into a prenup, I think anybody who makes a prenup should, let's say they have some huge source of income that they've created. I think they still ought to have an agreement that a certain amount of money will be put in the community account to secure the retirement of the other spouse and to secure the community interests. And I also think it's a really bad idea when people, when they provide for the kids, they provide for the kids who are going to come along, but not the wife. Not the wife so much. I think the wife has to come first.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So something I'm curious about and it reminded me of this question we got, you know, about the idea of, you know, when you're married for 10 years, isn't the 10 year mark, I guess when things become commute like when you for sure get half of everything from your spouse, is that only a law in certain states or is that true everywhere?

[B]

The 10 year situation is when it becomes a long term marriage. If a marriage in California is less than 10 years between the time of the actual marriage and the time of separation, if it's less than 10 years, then spousal support typically will not go on beyond half the length of the marriage. So if it's nine and a half years, that would be however many months that is. You divide it in half and that's typically how long you would get spousal support on a short term marriage, once you go beyond 10 years, there's a provision that says until you die or remarry, you can get support.

[C]

Seems a little crazy to me that they don't prorate that because there really isn't a huge difference between being married for nine years and 11 months and 10 years.

[B]

Yeah. And it's not, it's not exactly. Sometimes I had a situation one time where they actually got, they actually had a fight on their 10th wedding anniversary that they never recovered from. They got divorced and they were. But they had been married 10 years and the judge says, well, I'm going to find this a soft 10 years and I'm going to. He gave her five years of support.

[A]

So it can still Be left up to the judge.

[B]

Ultimately, it's gonna be up to the judge.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay, next celebrity divorce. I have a question on is Keith Urban and Nicole Kidman?

[B]

Right.

[C]

So they shocked the world, I think with the news that they were ending. How long were they married?

[A]

19 years. They were married for 19 years.

[C]

19 year union.

[A]

So certainly a long term marriage in the eyes of the court. Yeah.

[C]

And especially in the eyes of Hollywood. They're basically. That was an eternal marriage in the eyes of, you know, 19 years.

[A]

19 years. Isn't that crazy?

[C]

So they did have a prenuptial agreement. Her net worth is somewhere around 300 million. His is around 100, apparently in their prenuptial agreement, because he has cocaine problems. He really struggled with substance abuse. And you know, part of their story was her actually helping him go to rehab and get clean. There was a provision that she would pay him anywhere from 5 to $900,000 per year that he remained so sober of those substances in the marriage. My question is, is that provision actionable? Is that something you can actually enforce?

[B]

I would think so. If it's in the prenup. If it's in the prenuptial agreement, yes. By the way, I saw Instagram post yesterday where Tom Cruise, they said Tom Cruise has some real definite opinion on Nicole Kidman, but I didn't have the expertise to open it up. But he said some.

[A]

We'll have to look into that.

[B]

Yeah, he had some real strong words for her. But no, that anything like that fits in. The agreement can be enforced.

[C]

And couldn't she say, oh, I saw him get high once? Like how, how does this get proven?

[B]

You have to have evidence.

[C]

He would have to prove his sobriety.

[B]

Depends on how it's written.

[C]

Interesting.

[B]

He'd have to have some. Yeah, I think he'd have to have.

[C]

Evidence that he was sober the whole time.

[B]

Yeah, I would think more like she'd have to. Evidence. Have evidence he was not.

[C]

That he was not.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Okay.

[C]

Yeah. Okay. Another, I'm sorry, the biggest celebrities we must talk about today, which are Gary Turner and Theresa Nist.

[A]

Are you familiar, dad, with either of these people?

[B]

No.

[C]

Yeah, you.

[A]

You are about it.

[C]

We're talking about the Golden Bachelor. The first Golden Bachelor, Gary. Gary and Teresa. Anyway, Gary and Teresa, they fell in love on ABC cameras and they married in La Quinta. Okay, Right. And their marriage only lasted a few months.

[B]

Right.

[C]

They were incompatible. And he was very intense about her signing a prenup because this also shocked the world when we found this out. He Actually had more money than her.

[B]

Really?

[C]

Yeah. His eyes lit up during. Right before they went to the fantasy suite when he found out that she was working in finance and seemed. Seemed to have, like, a substantial amount of money. So everyone assumed he kind of married her for that. But apparently, according to his memoir, when he actually figured out what was going on, she did not have nearly as much money as he thought she did. So anyway, long story short, he was like, you have to sign this prenup. And he really wanted to protect his assets, and he wanted them to go to his children. My question is, let's say you are 80 and you marry someone. Does that person just automatically get your entire estate if you don't have a prenup that says something like that upon your death?

[B]

Absolutely not.

[C]

Oh, really?

[B]

Keep it separately. You bring it in separate. They do not. Just keep your. Keep it separate.

[A]

But what is it?

[C]

What do you mean, keep it separate?

[B]

Keep it in an account and don't commingle funds that are acquired during the marriage in the separate account.

[C]

So let's just keep following this thread. Gary and Teresa stayed together, and then Gary passed. Teresa.

[A]

Unless.

[C]

Unless her name was put on accounts, anything that was left would just automatically go to his children and not to her.

[B]

Correct. If his children were the beneficiaries on the accounts.

[C]

Gotcha.

[B]

Yes. Now, so, yeah, that's typically what happens if you got designated beneficiaries that it passes by operation of law to the beneficiaries.

[C]

Not to the spouse. Not to the surviving spouse.

[B]

No. So if you don't have a will or a trust or something like that, then property that you have not listed a beneficiary on would go by. Operate by. Well, by probate law. It would go to a portion of it would go to the surviving spouse.

[C]

And then what would the other portion go?

[B]

The kids. Children.

[C]

Really interesting. So this. Okay.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

And what's that split?

[B]

Well, typically it's. For instance, let's say you have kids even you have kids with the spouse, and you don't have a will. If you have one child and one spouse, then the spouse gets half, the child gets half. If you have more than one child, the spouse gets a third, the kids get the other 2/3.

[C]

So the spouse essentially splits everything with the kids evenly.

[B]

If there's no will.

[C]

If there's no will, this is actually shocking information.

[A]

You think it would just all go to the spouse phase?

[C]

I think it would all go to this house. So if you're married for 50 years and there's an investment that you're not a beneficiary on that just automatically gets split with your kids.

[B]

Correct.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

Word to the wise. Get that will in order.

[B]

If it passes through probate and there's no will.

[C]

How do you, how do you.

[B]

What happens is if there's no will, the government makes a will for you. They say we're going to say that half goes to your wife and the other half goes to your kid or the other 2/3 goes to your kids.

[C]

Wow. Interesting.

[A]

Okay, okay, I'm ready to talk about another divorce here.

[C]

Okay, Chandler. I was filming a little vlog the other day trying to get into vlogging and it was just funny because. Do you want to know what was sitting right beside my bathtub when I was sharing my kind of get ready with me moment?

[A]

Oh, this is an easy one. This is a softball for me. You had a empty, probably one or two empty cans of Clean Simple Eats Clear protein.

[C]

It was yesterday's clear Protein. Okay, Sitting next to the bathtub that I did enjoy in the bath.

[A]

Everyone.

[C]

I love Clean Simple Eats clear protein. I'll tell you why. It's an easy way to get 20 grams of clean grass fed whey protein for a simple 90 calories. You grab it from your fridge. You're not messing up a blender. I love this stuff. I have cases delivered each month. I truly I drink it for the taste but the protein is a benefit. So it's so delicious. Clean Simple Eats. They also have amazing protein powders if you are ready to mess up your.

[A]

Blender in the wintertime. I love to do a little chocolate milk situation with my Clean Simple Eats. Okay. I do a little bit of the fairlife milk and then I do a scoop of the chocolate chocolate brownie batter. It's perfection.

[C]

You guys go to cleansimplates.com use code POPAPOLOGIST20 for 20 off your order. That's cleansupleats.com code POPAPOLOGIST20.

[A]

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[C]

Who cares?

[A]

Doesn't matter. He's the worst. He is truly the scumbag. Denise Richards, she was married to Charlie Sheen. She married this guy, kind of a wellness guru from Malibu, and they've had this extremely messy divorce. All right? And in fact, at one fact, she had a bad.

[B]

With Charlie.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Honestly, there's another bad guy.

[A]

Yeah. Her paper is off.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. One thing that's interesting about this divorce is that Denise makes a lot of money from her brand deals, from sort of social media only fans, that kind of thing. And he claims to have little to no income. Okay. He also has some domestic violence charges against him, and she's won, like, a restraining order against him. How does the court, like, verify the fact that a spouse really does bring in no income? Because obviously, he's saying that because he wants her to pay him every month. So how does the court verify that?

[B]

First of all, your tax return is what we call the presumptively correct source of your income. So you look at the tax return, and then if he says he doesn't make any much money and his tax return shows that, then that's the presumptively correct amount. And then you'd have to prove he made. You have to prove he's lying.

[A]

And I know that there is something where, you know, if your spouse says they don't make any money or they can't make any money, you can file something to say like, well, you just don't want to work, or you're just saying that intentionally right now, but you actually could be making this much money if you just got a job. What is that called?

[B]

Come back to that. Okay, here's the Interesting part about what you're telling me, there's one part of the family code that talks about if you. Let's say you have a serious domestic violence, like you say her husband beat her up or whatever.

[A]

Yeah. Which he did.

[B]

That has an effect on the amount of support he would receive. It's possible. Particularly if he was convicted of domestic violence or of spousal battery against her. It's possible. The law has a provision that says you shouldn't have to pay spousal support to your abuser, the person physically abused you. So she could technically get out of that on the basis of being physically abused or that there's evidence of domestic violence that may reduce the level of support she'd have to pay him.

[A]

So she was granted a five year restraining order. I don't know if that means that he's then convicted, would that mean potentially that she doesn't have to pay him as much support? Is that potentially as good as a conviction in the eye if he doesn't get convicted?

[B]

But still the judge can reduce it. If there's domestic violence, can reduce it, but not.

[C]

The judge won't eliminate it.

[A]

Anything's possible with a five year restraining order. How hard is it to get a five year one? Like, I know restraining orders can be hard to get, or they can, you know, like speak to restraining orders.

[B]

You have to have some real. I mean, I think you'd have to have some real substantial domestic violence to get a five year order. But a lot of times they just say to the person, the court says, I find that domestic violence has occurred and between the husband and the wife, the husband was the primary aggressor. Notice, they don't say the husband was the only aggressor. They say he's the primary aggressor. So then they say to the wife, oftentimes, how long do you want the order for? And the wife will say, well, what's the maximum? Five years. Okay, I'll give it to you.

[A]

Is the maximum five years?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. There's nothing beyond five years.

[B]

You can go back and get it renewed after five years if there's been intervening trouble.

[A]

Okay, interesting. So let's say five years go and, you know, everything's peaceful. You don't necessarily get that renewed automatically because of this one of what occurred five years before that.

[B]

Yeah. You would not be able to get it renewed probably. Typically if there has not been any problem.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or threats.

[A]

Okay. So just coming back quickly to my job question. There was a scenario that I was talking to you about where, you know, off the podcast, where if, you know, sometimes when you're, when people are going through a divorce, a spouse will get a job with a lower salary intentionally so they don't have to pay as much support. Now, isn't there something that the courts do where they, like, can kind of look into how much money you're. You could be making? So what does that call?

[B]

So that's called a vocational valuation. But I want to segue back to, to the other point you made.

[C]

I talked about that on last episode.

[A]

Oh, we did.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Well, anyway, I was ready to hear about it again.

[B]

Okay. So one more thing. What's interesting about domestic violence is when you go get a temporary restraining order, that's going to be a certain level of proof. A lot of times if somebody goes into the court and they ask the court to have a temporary restraining order, we call that a TR or temporary restraining order. To get that, you just have to make a written statement about what's been going on and why you're concerned, and you swear under penalty, perjury, that you're being abused. So that that restraining order will typically last three weeks. And then there's going to be a hearing after that. Then you can decide if you want to go forward and turn your temporary restraining order, which will otherwise expire, into a permanent or five year, up to five year restraining order. Now, the crazy thing about it is sometimes what happens is it's not a good idea to go forward with a permanent restraining order. Because if you get a permanent restraining order against your spouse and then your spouse goes out and looks for a job, a lot of times they do a background check. And if they have found that your spouse has been found to have committed domestic violence, if you will, then a lot of employers will not hire your spouse. So here you got kids and, and you want support for yourself and your kids, and your spouse has. And you've got a five year restraining order, the court's made a finding of domestic violence. Then some private investigator comes through the file and finds that in your background check, you might lose out on a.

[A]

Really good job and potential support from that spouse. Right.

[B]

In other words, your spouse may lose out on the job and you may lose out on support. So sometimes what we do in a situation like that is we say we're going to extend the temporary restraining order for six months or a year or whatever, or two years even. We'll just kind of keep it temporary that way for whatever reason in a background check, they don't worry about that. Somewhere if it's not been a finding of domestic violence. And you have to have a finding to get the permanent order, but a temporary order, you can kind of just kick that. I mean, push that forward again and again and again. And you don't have a problem with the employment in the future.

[A]

Right. And it sounds like if a employer were to find evidence of a temporary restraining order that they're not going to take that all that seriously.

[B]

They don't. It's big difference.

[A]

Yeah. Cool.

[C]

Another celebrity couple, really quick that I have a question about. Is Kyle. Is Kyle Richards and Mauricio Umansky? So not sure if you're familiar, dad, but they were the bedrock of.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Of matrimony and monogamy on Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, a show we hope you one day tune into. And I think a lot of people had a lot of hope and faith in marriage because of them. They had four beautiful daughters and a gorgeous union. They seemed to have a lot of chemistry. And then it all came crashing down. We've been bereft ever since and it's been very upsetting now.

[B]

Bereft?

[A]

Yeah, like without, like we have just been without hope, without air in our lungs. Yeah.

[C]

Just bereft. Yeah, we've been bereft. Anyway, maybe Dad's the only person who.

[A]

Can really counter your vocabulary on this podcast.

[C]

Maybe. Perhaps. We shall see.

[B]

A little clunky.

[C]

Bereft is definitely the right word. My question though is for Kyle and Mauricio. They have actually not. They have not legally separated even though she has gone on to have a lesbian relationship with a 20 year old, 28 year old country singer and he's gone on to party with young hoes in Aspen. Okay. And they're both just. I would say they've lost their way regardless. They are not even these the ones.

[B]

Who have five, four or five beautiful kids.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

How old are they?

[A]

The bedrock.

[C]

They're both, I would say early 50s.

[A]

And they were very in love.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

The entire time on the show we were led to believe that it was sad.

[C]

It was very sad.

[A]

Yeah. Very tight knit family as well.

[C]

Anyway, so the question, we beg the question because they're leading separate lives and doing whatever the fuck they want. Excuse my language.

[A]

Whoa. Sorry.

[C]

On it. On Instagram. I'm just, I'm caught up.

[B]

It's quite the vocabulary.

[C]

My question is when they finally file for divorce, okay, like let's say Mauricio gets sued right now, is Kyle protected at all? Because they've been living separate lives.

[B]

Yeah. They would be considered separated.

[C]

They would. Just because of being. Just living separate lives.

[A]

Not.

[C]

They don't have to file anything.

[B]

Like, you can make it. They're not holding themselves out as husband and wife. They're considered. They would be. You could go back and determine a separation date.

[A]

Like, even if they're living in the same house, even if they're sleeping in the same bed. But.

[C]

Okay, let's say he doesn't. Let's say he says, well, she has all these assets that I, you know, potentially want access to to protect myself against this fictional lawsuit. Long story short, like, could he not agree to her date of separation?

[B]

The judge would decide it. Basically, they're both going to make their case that the one's going to say, oh, no, no, we were really separated. And then the other is going to say, no, no, we were really together.

[C]

And then we have texts and we have stuff. And you have to actually, literally prove it.

[B]

Actually, the preference is to have a date, the most recent date, as opposed to a date way, way far back.

[A]

Why?

[B]

But just because it helps community property and makes things. The preference is always to if. If it's really a tight or a close decision of whether property is separate or community, the preference is that the property be community.

[A]

Got it. Okay. Interesting.

[C]

That's great news for Kyle and for Mo.

[A]

Yeah, I wonder if they're doing that at all, because maybe they're going to reconcile. I don't know. It's interesting to leave that door open. Or they just don't want to deal with splitting everything up. I don't know.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

By the way, while you're talking, I think we should go back to the vocational evaluation. You know, I think you say we talked about that on the last podcast and I think we did, but that is one of those things. It's one of the easiest things to get a judge to order. And it can make a huge difference in your divorce as to the amount of support you pay or receive. If the party who you're paying support to should be working and does have the ability to work, you want to get a vocational evaluation. And because the. The valuator will come back and say, this person can start out making this much money, and then if they. And they're going to go up and up and up, where if you do not do that, then they'll often just probably impute minimum wage if you're lucky. So it's only three or four thousand dollars, which might seem like a lot, but those vocational evaluations pay for themselves very quickly in terms of the reduced support you pay or increase or. Yeah, I have cases where the husband, for instance, who maybe was at one time a good earner or the high earner, then he's kicking back and not doing so much and the wife's the worker. Well, then the wife will get a vocational evaluation on him. They say, well, you're making this much, but you really should be making this much.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Worth the three super important. Super important.

[C]

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[A]

Okay.

[C]

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[A]

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[C]

Kagan many times will be like wear the gummies before bed.

[A]

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[C]

Should we get to listener questions?

[A]

Absolutely, let's do it. Okay, let's begin with this first question from a listener. How to deal with divorcing after 18 years and three kids from a man who has a drinking problem. So maybe even just to make it a little bit more general, what advice do you have for someone who is divorcing somebody with substance abuse issues?

[B]

You know, that's a huge issue in divorce. And the reality is if your spouse has a drinking problem where it's problematic, the drinking, and they're not willing to really get help and it's got to come from inside. If they're not willing to get help, you need to get the hell out of there as fast as you can because they, you know, the court can put restrictions on, on a person and until they're ready, until they really want to get away from the alcohol, it's problematic and it's, it will destroy your relationship.

[A]

And I think too, like looking at it through the lens of, okay, this person's going to move forward with the divorce, what, what advice do you have for them? I think the conundrum that these people are in is, you know, well, there's, they still need spousal support potentially from this person. They don't want to blow up their lives. They don't want to say, you know, I'm going to call and get you fired, because, you know, so they don't almost want to induce this wake up call by making their lives blow up.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But they also need them to have this wake up call. I mean, I guess. Any advice there?

[B]

Well, if you're talking about what's going to be their access to the kids, sometimes they'll make them. We have a device called SoberLink and they'll make them every four or five hours, blow into a little breathalyzer, just like a phone. And then that will, when they have the kids, they'll have to blow into that every, every four or five hours. And then that will be able to, then you'll be able to ascertain they're sober at least while they're taking care of the kids.

[A]

Yeah. So, so that's a breathalyzer for just, not for necessarily for driving, but just for being a caretaker for.

[B]

Right. And you get any alcohol at all, that thing's gonna go off.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's, that's actually a way to protect the kids. And again, you talk about in terms of employment, like, what should you do about their employment?

[A]

This person just said how to Just maybe how to deal with it or. Yeah, just anything in general, advice wise. When you're divorcing somebody with a drinking problem, substance abuse issues, I will say this.

[B]

If you're divorcing somebody and you have kids, they're going to get more pressure than ever to stop drinking or to be accountable for it. But until they're ready, they're not going to do it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You'll see all types of deceit and deception and lying and you name it. Until the person's ready to. And I think it is an illness.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

I think alcoholism is an illness as opposed to a weakness. It used to be people say, well, is it a weakness or an illness? No, I think it's an illness.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But until they're ready to get help, you got to ride them hard.

[A]

And it's like, do you fight for all the custody, as much custody as possible? What type of custody would you recommend to somebody?

[B]

I think that they may fight for custody, but a lot of times the courts really come down hard on them and the court may not give them joint custody if they're problematic. Now, if they can control their drinking and when they have the kids, they're not using or they're not drinking, then it may be a joint custody case.

[A]

Just a question that came to mind really quickly. Does the court look at drug abuse and drinking in a super different way? Do they treat it all just as abuse issues and addiction issues?

[B]

Abusive prescription drugs is another big one.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

So, yeah, drug abuse, you know, I think abuse of prescription drugs is far worse than or certainly seen far worse than marijuana use.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They'll let people use marijuana, but certainly abusing prescription drugs or alcohol is a problem.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Use versus abuse.

[A]

Right, right. Okay.

[B]

If your spouse is using alcohol and abuse, abusing alcohol, they can make them. Or substances. They can make them. Random tests.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not only on the sober link we talked about, but they can make him take drug tests.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Randomly.

[A]

Yeah. In order to keep his custody arrangement. Yeah. His or her, I guess. Lauren, take it away. Next question.

[C]

Well, sure, but before I do that, I'd like to exonerate myself. So according to dictionary.cambridge.org oh, my gosh. It's a university in the UK of esteem. Bereft means not having something or feeling great loss.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Be rift. What I was talking about.

[C]

Oh, be rift. You misheard.

[B]

I think it's the same. No, but I know. I think that it's kind of. I always thought it was a state of lack in or in confusion.

[C]

I think I think it's more feeling great loss, which is what we felt as brother.

[A]

And I did feel great. Greatly confused as a person who believes in monogamy when these two got divorced.

[B]

Now, one thing about, you know, back on the second marriages, I can't imagine why the golden bachelor would need a prenup because I don't think he was earning a lot of money going forward. And you keep your assets separate.

[C]

So basically your assets are already protected going into a marriage. It's really. But it sounds like even what you make during the marriage isn't really. That is still protected if you just have it in separate accounts.

[B]

Well, what you make during the marriage depends on what the prenup says. If you just go on and you start making money during your marriage, that's going to be community property, unless there's some agreement otherwise.

[C]

You had said at the beginning of the episode, though, that if you don't have a prenup and you keep your money in separate accounts, then it's just each of yours.

[B]

That's money you bring in.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

The money you earn during the marriage would presume to be community property.

[C]

Oh, sorry, I'm using bring in. Another vocab issue. Bring in meaning earn. But you're saying bring in to the marriage, so. No. Okay. So money you earn during the marriage, no matter what account it's in or whose name it's under, is community property and belongs to both.

[B]

It's presumed to be community property unless you receive it through gift, bequest, or divine.

[C]

Oh, yeah. You know, that was a question we had. Someone wanted to know, are gifts, like, are our jewelry, watches, cars, are those considered community property, or are those considered individual property if they're gifted during the day?

[B]

If you receive it as a gift and it's an item of more of a personal nature, like jewelry, that's going to be considered your separate property.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Now, if you go out and buy a car, you go out and buy your spouse a car, and it's an expensive car, and you're making payments on it, that's not going to be considered a gift.

[A]

But if you buy it outright, we're.

[B]

Going to buy you as a couple. We're going to buy you this car, and this is my gift to you. But it's. It's the. It's. We, you know, I want you to have this car, but it's still going to be a community.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Okay, let's move on.

[C]

Yeah, we shall have another definition. Bereft. No, no, I'm just kidding. This Girl, no. Okay, so next question. My boyfriend doesn't believe in marriage. Any legal advice if I plan to spend my life with him?

[B]

Yeah. Better earn your own money and be able to provide for yourself because. And better get gain your own property because you're not going to be able to depend on him for any type of financial support.

[C]

So there's just no. You're with Helen for 30 years. You, Goldie Hawn and Kurt Russell.

[A]

It.

[C]

It's kind of hot. You don't have to be together, but you want to be together.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Doesn't matter. In the eyes of the law, what's his is his. And if he passes away, it could just go to the state.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

I'm bereft.

[C]

Okay. Girl, you gotta change his mind. That's my advice. Yeah.

[B]

Honestly, first watching Overboard the other night.

[C]

I. Yeah, Overboard is a classic of.

[A]

Our childhood, a classic movie. Okay.

[B]

I would say best league advice and something like that is run. I mean, because.

[C]

Find another man.

[B]

Yeah. I mean it's because, you know, all the things that might go along with the long term relationship. The guy is getting what he wants, but you're not getting any commitment. That's a big problem.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

One other thing that you brought up that is a big problem in second marriages. People may be totally good with each other, but what happens is the resources may be limited as they are in most situations. And where people really get in trouble is they fight over the allocation of resources between their respective kids. They each bring their kids into the marriage and then they're fighting over, well, okay, I want the resources to go to my kids and you want to go to your kids or whatever. Or let's say the new wife can get really upset if the husband is deemed to be using his resources he brings in to take care of his kids before he takes care of her. That's a big. Those are huge issues where people really, their marriage is getting in trouble.

[C]

Do you have any advice for those people?

[B]

I think if you're married to somebody, you got to take care of them first.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. This is a quick.

[B]

You ought to have those discussions going in, right?

[A]

Yeah. Like this is the order of operations. This is just a quick question, but people want to know. A lot of people ask, is dating for divorce a bad idea? Like, is that. It does. Is. Is it a bad look in the eyes of the court? Does it make you look bad? I don't know in any way?

[B]

I don't think it has any effect on the court.

[A]

Okay, so it's okay.

[B]

Court assumes everybody is dating everybody and it never hears about it.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

Now the only thing you could get in trouble is if you're. Let's say you're a mom and you're dating some guy and then he's around the kids or either way you're dating some person and you've got young kids and that person has an unsavory background and that they find out about it.

[A]

That can look really bad.

[B]

You don't want to be in a situation where the guy you're dating happens to be a registered sex offender. That's a problem.

[A]

That is absolutely a problem.

[C]

Judges don't like that.

[A]

You know, that can be.

[B]

That's that all, all bets are off when something like that comes up.

[A]

100%. 100,000%.

[C]

Get Googling girls.

[A]

Lauren, next question.

[C]

Yeah. Okay, so someone wants to know, my parents have a trust. When can we expect payments from the trust? Great question.

[B]

Whatever the trust says you got and.

[C]

You gotta reach out to the trustees.

[B]

Yeah. Like most people, they just have a trusted friend or family member be the trustee.

[C]

Gotcha.

[B]

Okay. And then you know, there's, you have to see what the terms of the trust say.

[A]

Okay, so moving on to this next question. So it's a little bit of a two parter. So this person says, I'm married. No prenup. I'm a much higher earner. I'm the much higher earner. Is it basically guaranteed that if we got divorced I'd have to pay alimony and split the retirement accounts? My husband will inherit money when his parents die. So it seems crazy to pay him split retirement. We are happily married. I've just found myself wondering.

[B]

Okay, so it sounds like this is a lady who's asking the question.

[A]

It is.

[B]

And she's the higher earner and she knows her husband is going to inherit money and she's wondering why should I have to split the community retirement accounts when he's going to inherit money?

[A]

Yeah, that's such a good question.

[B]

So here's the thing. The way it works is the community property is put in one pile and it's divided evenly. No matter what classify the property, it's going to be divided evenly. The fact that he's got an inheritance is a benefit to him. It's not going to. The only way it could benefit her is if he gets a substantial inheritance to the point where that inheritance is producing income for him. And that could affect the amount of support that she would have to pay him because he's got another source of income.

[A]

Wait, what does that. What does that mean? That it produces income.

[B]

It's not like investment income.

[A]

Got it. Okay. So it's like a repeated income that's now just flowing every month.

[B]

Or it could be a trust where they say that.

[A]

He doesn't get it all at once.

[B]

Yeah. He gets monthly payments. It could be a trust fund baby or whatever.

[A]

Yeah. Interesting. Yeah.

[B]

So that would have an effect. That would lower the support.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it also could be a situation where they say he's got all this money, he's got these trust fund payments, that's why he doesn't work. So they could find a way to impute income based on that.

[C]

One of my favorite things when you come on the POD is when you give advice to people. Moving on from that question is when you give advice to people who are looking for love. Because I do think having experienced so many dissolutions, you probably have a gauge of, you know, the type of people to look out for and the type of people. Yeah, the type of people to look for and the type of people to look out for. So someone wants to know red flags in men and male divorcees that I should look out for when jumping back into the dating pond.

[B]

Any type of substance abuse is a huge problem.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And let. And listen to what your friends tell you. Your friends might pick up the red flags better than you do. And listen to what your family tells you. Listen to what the people you care about tell you. And if you go against all of that and you decide to marry the person after you're being told by the people who care about you this is not a good idea. Well, you're getting what you deserve. Maybe you don't deserve it. Least you were told.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. Okay.

[B]

See how they. See how they treat the person who brings them. Who, the server at the restaurant.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

See how they treat people who can't do anything for them.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, probably also look out for how they handle conflict with other people. Right. Like if they, if they have conflict with others in business or with friends, how are they managing that conflict? And that could tell you a lot about how they will manage future conflict with.

[A]

Yeah. Do they have a long list of people they don't speak to anymore?

[B]

Yeah. Are they cross threaded or estranged from their other family members? That's a huge one. Or if they don't. Here's another one. Let's say they don't have a lot of friends or hardly any friends or particularly long term friends. I think that is the problem. By the way, I think you girls all seem to have a lot of long term friends and I think that speaks well of you. You keep in touch with people you know from before you became the pop apologist. You become these superstars, people who still.

[A]

Want to hang out with us. Yeah, we even though we're pretty annoying.

[C]

We keep in touch with anyone who hasn't blocked us.

[A]

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[C]

Point.

[A]

We have 10 days of gift curations with last minute gifts for kids, for her and for him. Shop now@macy's.com or in store. Okay, this next question. They say my husband secretly gambled away tens of thousands of dollars. What do I do? They're not necessarily asking, you know, what kind of divorce do I get immediately. But what, what would be your advice to somebody in this situation if you're.

[B]

Going to go forward with that person? Don't give them access to money where they can do it again.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And make sure that the money you have remaining is protected so they cannot do that again. That's an area.

[A]

How would you do that? What does that look like?

[B]

Well, I mean, I think you have to, maybe it's not easy, maybe split up the money and maybe you need to have a postnuptial agreement where you take into account what has happened and maybe you need to protect what you have going forward and acknowledge what has happened. Yeah, maybe you need to. Here's one. Maybe you need to control the money going forward and you know that area of a breach of fiduciary duty. You know, they say husbands and wives have the highest duty of good faith and fair dealing with each other. And so when money is taken, when one spouse does not know about it, that's a big deal. Yeah, it's a huge, you know, seen cases where one where the wife systematically fleeces the husband. The husband's bringing, particularly in second marriages, the wife, in some cases, just a fact. I'm sure both sides do this, but they'll take money and divert it to other places. One red flag in the marriage, I would say is let's say you get married and you've got a business going. Your business is doing well and maybe you're the spouse and you're, you're working really hard, you're the earning spouse and the other spouse tells you, hey, I got a great idea. Let's make a corporation from your, let's incorporate your business or let's start an account over here. What they're trying, what the spouse is trying to do is they're trying to find a way to get your money under their control. Like let's start bringing your earnings from your, from your separately owned business. Let's put all that money in an account under both of our names where you start commingling that. That's a big deal. And it's very typically what you see is, and then often it's the other spouse, the non earning spouse who controls that money and then starts diverting it. Interesting. So you have to keep things separate. If you go into marriage, owning a business and you need to try and keep as much of those business earnings separate. Don't put it in an account where the other spouse has access. I'm just saying it's like no matter.

[A]

What, basically, well, you need to put.

[B]

A certain amount, support the family, but don't put all your assets in where the other spouse can get them. There's a lot of that going on where the one spouse, the one spouse is working so hard, they're earning the money and then the other spouse is managing it. And pretty soon you start seeing money go places it shouldn't go.

[A]

Interesting.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And it's very hard to come back and get that. Get back. Very hard to claw. We call it claw back. How do you claw that back?

[A]

Especially after years of somebody, you know, stealing a little bit.

[B]

So that's a huge area in marriages is breach of fiduciary duty.

[A]

This person says, my sister in law is getting a divorce and neither of them are using an attorney, her and her ex husband, soon to be ex husband. What's the biggest risk?

[B]

I'm really glad you asked that question.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

The real risk is that they say they're both not using an attorney, but probably one of them or both is. So you know, like spouse will say, well, okay, let's just go to mediation. Let's play it straight. We won't bring attorneys. Yeah, that's a terrible idea because one of them invariably will have the attorney on speed dial and they'll go outside and talk to their attorney and they'll go out and talk to this attorney and then the other spouse will not have that benefit. So it's a terrible idea to, at minimum, even if you have no money at all, it's an absolutely terrible idea to not get a consultation with an attorney early on who can really explain to you what you're entitled to and what you should, you know, what you can give up, but what you should not give up, how the case should be settled. That can be done for well under $1,000. In most cases you can go get a really good paid consultation with an attorney and an hour or two you can go through and come up with a pretty good idea of what your settlement should look like.

[A]

One thing that was recently explained to me about mediation is that the mediator is being paid by both parties. Right. The mediator is not necessarily financially motivated to put this to bed. So. And they're, they're working for the person who's paying them. So if your spouse wants to drag it out, like the mediator's not gonna say, hey, that's not fair, you know, we shouldn't drag this out. Can you speak more now?

[B]

Most mediators are pretty good. They want to get the case over, but the problem is they want to be successful in ending the case. Most of them.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But the problem with the mediator is they're going to lean on the one. If they see one spouse is completely resolute, like, this is all I'm doing, this is my line in the sand. Well, then the other one, they're going to lean on the other one to come all the way over.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

So it's a terrible idea to go to a mediation without an attorney. It's just not good idea.

[A]

How often do you have clients coming in that are post mediation that are wasted all this money that are ready?

[B]

I see a lot of clients who could have settled in mediation $100,000 earlier and did not, and now they're still settling. Same exact thing, except maybe they each have 100,000 less they paid to an attorney. Right.

[C]

So super important, what percentage of your clients at the end, once they're not, I guess I would say not. Maybe not your client specifically, but do you think that people generally are happier and better off after they get divorced or do you think that it's a grass is greener situation and a lot of people regret it?

[B]

I think people will tell you they're happier. A lot of them, they don't, you know, they. And I don't know, I don't. I think that's a hard question because I think a lot of people could stay together if they could forgive and move on. I think there are things though that you cannot, you know, like adultery, I guess. You know, Dr. Laura, she would say adultery, addiction, abuse. Maybe those are the three A's. There may be another one I'm missing. But those three things, if you cannot fix those problems, it really can be soul destroying to stay in a marriage.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

That actually brings me to, I think our final question back to actually the secret lives of Mormon wives and into. Back into the celebrity sphere. So there is a. Basically these cast members. One is named Jesse and she's been with her husband for I think three or four years. She's the main breadwinner. She cheated on him, where she kissed another guy. So, so first, would the court consider that cheating? But second, she says that he was emotionally abusing her for years. So how does the court look at emotional abuse? Because you've said they take a pretty hard line against physical abuse. But what happens when a spouse says, well, I've been being emotionally abused?

[B]

The definition of domestic violence these days is so wide. And I think that emotional abuse might, if it's serious enough, might fall under the. Under the definition of domestic violence. So it can be. Seem to be. You know, it's funny, I think what courts look to. And what I'm seeing lately is you might have some. A spouse and they got into it one day and it wasn't that violent, but it was. It might have been a little bit, you know, yelling, screaming and maybe a little bit pushing or whatever, but it was only a one time thing. All right, so courts then say, well, you know, I think if we're going to do a restraining order, I'd like you to just do it a long term temporary or a longer term temporary restraining order. And we don't need to go to a permanent one because I'm not seeing a pattern of abuse. I'm seeing a one time explosion. And now everybody's backed away and went to their corners and all that. So I think what they're really looking for is a pattern of abuse and control. I think that's. That that is considered more serious where people really need to get help.

[A]

Yeah. Well, with that, everybody, Happy New Year.

[C]

Dad. Thank you so much for coming on. Always such a pleasure. We should make this a. I mean, it's becoming an annual thing where we go over the celebrity divorces of, you.

[A]

Know, of the year.

[C]

So thank you for doing your pop apologist duty.

[A]

Thank you, dad.

[C]

Contributing to the family party.

[B]

It's very exciting to see the ascent. That's the ascent of the pop apologist.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

And how well you're both doing. It's very exciting.

[C]

Thanks, dad.

[B]

And I know I can speak for your mom, who is also very proud of you. We love you very much and we're just thrilled to be here.

[C]

Aw, we love you too. We're so proud of you, too. And of mom, if she'd ever come.

[A]

On the show again. Maybe we're still trying to book her.

[C]

Yeah, she plays hard to get. Love you, dad. Thanks for coming on. Love you, listeners. And have a wonderful new year. Don't get too crazy out there.

[A]

Don't get divorced, Don. Don't.

[C]

Maybe, yeah, maybe stay together, but maybe do it. You never know.

[A]

You never know. Life's short. Life's long and short.

[C]

Love you guys.

[A]

Bye. The longer days are Pluto, so is your feelings. Google straight Pluto TV string food on.

[C]

TV Pluto TV for free.

[B]

Stream blockbuster hits like 21 Jump Street Ted, the Expendables and so much more on Pluto TV.

[A]

Stream now May never okay, it's December 23rd and let's all be honest with ourselves. We tried to be the girl who shopped early, wrapped early, and had the perfect bow on everything. But life happened. December evaporated and now we're staring at our gift list like oh no. But here's the good news. Macy's has gifts that feel thoughtful, personal and not at all like you bought them 48 hours before Christmas. They've curated gifts by Persona, category and even price. It's like having Santa as your Christmas helper. For your fitness obsessed someone Nike High Waist leggings, the Garmin Vivoactive 6 or the Sun 2 Race 2 GPS watch for your Jetsetter friend who lives at the airport, the Samsonite Weekender Duffels and G Shock watches are so good. And for any man in your life obsessed with fragrances, Macy's has cologne gift sets that are wrapped and ready to gift. Also, don't forget the Macy's Great Gift Sale event is going on now until December 24th. Save 30 to 60% on the best gifts that won't disappoint. We have 10 days of gift curations with last minute gifts for kids, for her and for him. Shop now@macy's.com or in store VRBO last minute deals make chasing fresh mountain powder incredibly easy. With thousands of homes close to the slopes, you can easily get epic Pow Freshies, first tracks and more. No need for months of planning. In fact, you can't even plan. Pow Pow is on its own schedule. Thankfully, somewhere in the world it's always snowing. All you have to do is use the last minute filter on the app to book a last minute deal. On a slope side private rental home book [e-mail].