← Pop Apologists
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- [00:00]
A
I always stick to the basics for spring. Like every year I tell myself I'm gonna try something new. And every year I'm just like, nope. Jeans, a cute top. That's it. That's me. But Macy's is low key, making it way too easy to branch out because it's where the brands shaping the season all live. This spring, you can absolutely catch me in my Levi's jeans. Classic for a reason. And all the fits and washes right now are actually so good. I'm also fully into an Avec Lafiz linen matching set moment. Effortless, breezy and beautiful. And for an elevated finishing touch, I'm reaching for a Miu Miu perfume. For spring fashion moments. Avec La File and Lioness are go to's for playful details and trendy silhouettes. Coach is also having a moment. Add a pastel tabby to any outfit and suddenly your whole look is incredible. For the guys, Reiss and scotch and soda make work to weekend dressing very easy. And Rod and Gun nails that relaxed coastal vibe. Plus Macy's has cult favorite beauty brands like Byredo and Miu Miu. To finish your look off, shop now in stores or@macy's.com. this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with a Name youe Price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it at progressive.com, progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates pricing coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.
- [01:28]
B
Well, well, well. The day has come on the Popologist podcast for us to deep dive the crimes in the life of Jeffrey Epstein Chandler. Thank you so much for joining us today.
- [01:40]
A
Of course, this deep dive was asked for. We were reluctant at times, but we need to do it. We need to mention it all.
- [01:50]
B
We absolutely do.
- [01:51]
A
And there's a lot to dig into here. So, I mean, I don't. I don't really have anything light to get into before we, you know, kind of get to the. The matter at hand.
- [01:59]
B
Yeah, I just want to say that when I was first reading through the Epstein files, I was profoundly disturbed. It was hard for me to sleep. I really couldn't believe the information I was consuming. So I think it took a minute to digest everything as much as I could and then finally get to a place where I felt like. And I know you agree it's really important for us to cover this and cover it in a meaningful way because I think it sheds light on the injustices that were committed against these victims. And the more people that make noise about this, the better. Especially when we are in a vacuum of justice.
- [02:35]
A
Yeah. Wow. Okay. I guess I do actually have some things to say before we get into it. I was equally as gripped by this and I the last few weeks and I felt compelled to talk about it and I feel compelled to walk, you know, everyone through all, all of these details. And I, I do think that, like, we cannot just let this story die, you know, in the news cycle. Lots of things are happening in the world right now. I believe this is one of the most important things happening right now. And yeah, we're not going to stop talking about it.
- [03:07]
B
I'm actually glad that we've waited a little bit because I feel like so sadly there's so much noise about other things already and I feel like the fever pitch has diminished. And so anyway, it is very important that we still make noise and sunlight is truly the best disinfectant. So everyone pull out your Windex. Okay. Because we are going to be doing our part today.
- [03:28]
A
Absolutely. So before we get into it, trigger warning everybody, you know, take care while listening. Um, we're not going to get into a lot of nitty gritty details here, but just know that the subject matter is, you know, concerning sexual assault and other things like that.
- [03:45]
B
Yeah. And let's talk about the structure of these episodes.
- [03:47]
A
Yeah. So this first episode is going to be sort of a 10,000 foot overview of Jeffrey Epstein and of like the major events, you know, that, that followed his life. We are not going to get into graphic descriptions of abuse. We are not going to get into a lot of super minute details that will come in later parts.
- [04:10]
B
Yeah, we're going to get more granular as these parts go on and we are going to get into the weirder, darker conspiracies. All of the things that, you know, I think people are really, really freaked out by. Those will come in future parts. Yeah, today we're laying the groundwork. We're building a foundation.
- [04:28]
A
And I do feel like we spend. Spent the last few episodes, like at times talking about some of the really, you know, graphic abuse that happened and that was discussed in Nobody's Girl. We're gonna like, you know, go back to all of that, but I think it's just helpful for everyone to kind of just know the timeline because it's quite a long timeline and to, you know, as we then get into the more detailed things to know, like where they fit in in the timeline.
- [04:52]
B
Exactly. Okay, so let's dive right in one of the most unsettling questions about Jeffrey Epstein is how a college dropout from a working class Brooklyn family built a fortune, gained elite access, and maintained it long enough to commit years of abuse. Today, we are going the distance, Lisa Barlow style.
- [05:14]
A
Okay, so let's talk about early life for Jeffrey Epstein. So Jeffrey Edward Epstein was born on January 20, 1953 in Brooklyn, New York. His parents, Paula and Seymour, were first generation Americans, as Jeffrey's grandparents were European immigrants. Paula worked as a school A and also stayed home. Seymour worked for the New York City Parks and Recreations department as a groundskeeper and gardener.
- [05:38]
B
Jeffrey was a year and a half older than his younger brother Mark, his only sibling, and they grew up in a community called Seagate in Coney Island. Epstein, nicknamed EPI in those days, went to local public schools where he excelled specifically in math. He graduated from Lafayette high school in 1969 when he was 16 years old after skipping two grades. So that is notable.
- [05:58]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think it's pretty crazy to skip a grade. It's pretty crazy to skip two grades. Yeah.
- [06:03]
B
Yeah.
- [06:03]
A
I don't know if things were different back then, maybe. Is it hard? I wonder if it's harder now to skip multiple grades. But that's definitely notable, as you said. So after high school, he took advanced math classes at Cooper Union and later enrolled in New York University's current institute where he studied mathematical physiology.
- [06:22]
B
And.
- [06:22]
A
And then he left NYU in 1974 without earning a degree. And this is kind of important because this will resurface later on.
- [06:28]
B
Yeah. So it's September 1974, he's 21 years old, and he begins teaching physics and math at the Dalton School on Manhattan's Upper east side. This is a very elite private school, so it's unusual that he didn't have any credentials that you would expect for a job of that kind, specifically not even a college degree. According to the New York Times, the Dalton's headmaster quote didn't care about credentials as long as you were interested and New Year stuff. So Donald Barr was the headmaster at the time and he did like to hire people from unconventional backgrounds. Because I did a little digging on this, thinking this seems a little like phony. A lot of times those schools especially like all they care about is pedigree. But no, he did prefer to hire people from all walks of life to teach students. And so that is Jeffrey. That is how Jeffrey got his start.
- [07:16]
A
Yeah. So while Jeffrey Epstein was teaching at Dalton, he impressed at least one Wall street connected parent with his math abilities. And that conn was sort of a turning point for everything that followed. The father of one of his students invited him, you know, to come to an event at a gallery in Midtown. And while he was at the gallery, Jeffrey bumped into another Dalton parent there who had heard about his math skills, heard that he was, you know, very gifted, and just sort of asked him if he'd ever thought about, you know, Wall Street. Epstein was interested. And that parent then called one of their friends, you know, another well connected person in these New York elite circles, Ace Greenberg, who was the top executive at Bear Stearns, who then told Epstein, you know, you're wasting your time at Dalton being a teacher. Yeah.
- [08:01]
B
So Greenberg invites Epstein to Bear Stearns offices, and Epstein impresses Greenberg even though he had no idea how Wall street worked. Greenberg had a hiring style kind of similar to Donald Barr's hiring style at Dalton. He also didn't care about people having the exact credentials. And he wanted Epstein because he thought, said that he was a psd, exactly what he liked, someone poor, smart and desperate to get rich. This is instead of just having an Ivy League resume, which generally did not impress him. And Epstein fit exactly that mold. And, you know, I've. It's funny, I've. I've definitely had a friend who got hired at a very prestigious fashion. Fashion brand in New York, and she got hired because the CEO said he preferred people who had worked as servers, had been scrappy. He didn't like fashion school graduates. So I think this happens in. This isn't, like, unheard of.
- [08:54]
A
Yeah. I mean, and one thing I want to say, I think that, you know, Jeffrey Epstein's lack of credentials catches up to him at Bear Stearns. So it wasn't like they knew about, you know, his lack of credentials, and they were like, it's totally good. I think he just didn't come from a traditional background, so they didn't, you know, care as much. I also think the biggest factor here is that Jeffrey Epstein was extremely charming and he could get in front of these people and, you know, show his talents and just honestly work a room and really, like, make these people trust him and admire him.
- [09:26]
B
Yeah. So not only was he extremely charming, but he was extremely smart. Right. He skips two years of school in high school. He's. He genuinely is a very smart person.
- [09:38]
A
Right.
- [09:38]
B
And so I think that, you know, there's probably billionaires of all kinds, but I'm not guessing that all of them are super, super that, like, they're all mathletes.
- [09:49]
A
Okay. Mensa.
- [09:50]
B
Yeah. I Think it's completely possible that his mind worked at a speed that was so much faster than even very wealthy successful people. So he was able to kind of run circles around them conversationally and really impress and swindle them.
- [10:02]
A
Well, and we're going to get to this later, but this really comes into play when he is convincing people that he should then take care of their money for them. Exactly.
- [10:10]
B
So really quick though, before we get there.
- [10:12]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [10:13]
B
He gets fired from Dalton. And it is important to note that there were accounts of him even at Dalton. He's 23 and he was behaving inappropriately toward underage girls. So there was rumors of that, him giving lots of attention, flirting and showing up at student parties. And he gets ultimately dismissed from Dalton. It was described as being for poor performance, which may be code for him having behaved inappropriately, we're not sure. But at the same time, he has a huge break. He moves into finance, starting up Bear Stearns as an assistant to a floor trader.
- [10:45]
A
Okay, so this guy, Ace Greenberg, who he had met before, you know, takes Epstein on as really his protege and he invites him to a dinner party and seats him next to his 20 year old daughter, Lynn. Jeffrey and Lynn go on to date. And it was just very clear, you know, the message inside the firm. This new guy was linked to the boss's family. And that carried weight. You know, everyone, you know, mind your P's and Q's.
- [11:08]
B
Yeah. And then comes a moment that should have actually ended his career. So in 1976, Michael Tenenbaum gets a call from Bar Stern's personnel department. They'd finally checked Jeffrey Epstein's resume, which claimed degrees from two California universities. When he was confronted about his lies, Jeffrey admitted to it, saying nobody would give him a chance with his actual resume. And this is kind of, I think, where his brain power really turns on, because this admission disarmed Tenenbaum and he decided, like he took pity on him and he's like, all right, I'll give you a chance. Yeah, you know, like he's so smart with how to manipulate people.
- [11:43]
A
Right, right. And actually this guy Michael Tenenbaum says eventually to the New York Times, quote, I didn't realize that I was creating one of the monsters of Wall Street. And so just four years later, 1980, Bear Stearns names 27 year old Jeffrey Epstein as a limited partner. And he was reportedly earning a salary of $200,000 a year. This translates to about $787,000 in 2026. His relationship with Lynn Greenberg does eventually Fizzle. And she told the New York Times that she learned that Jeffrey had, quote, lied about everything. But in spite of all of this, you know, his profile keeps rising. He is even featured in Cosmopolitan magazine. They name him Bachelor of the Month, calling him a dynamo who, quote, only talks to people who make over a million a year. I just love that.
- [12:29]
B
That's like his, you know, that's a sterling quality of his personality. He only talks to really rich people. Oh, so he thinks a lot of people are beneath him. Great.
- [12:36]
A
Great.
- [12:37]
B
Also, I just want to drive home the point. He's 27, and he's making the equivalent of $787,000 a year, which is without a college degree. I mean, in a time when college degrees really mattered, like, that even that today would. Would be, like, way more commonplace. People make money in all sorts of ways now. This was a very, very specific special circumstance and very rare.
- [13:02]
A
Yeah, I think, too. You know, I. Like, he must have had some true financial smarts and game about him. Like that led him to become limited partner. Like, he couldn't have been. I don't think he was just scamming people left and right. And that made him become partner. Like, he must have had some real success with trading or with. Yeah, with the dollar signs and with. With the bell on Wall Street.
- [13:24]
B
He must have had some success with adding zeros to the balance sheet. And somehow he. He was a math prodigy. He skipped two grades of school, I
- [13:32]
A
guess, just like the whole financial world is so opaque. Opaque to me. But anyway, he does end up, you know, getting into the. The scam business later on. He does. Yeah.
- [13:41]
B
So he's named by Cosmopolitan as Bachelor of the Month, a dynamo. And then there's some, you know, questionable behavior on his expense report. So he spends $10,000 on clothes and jewelry for a girlfriend using the company card. This is the 80s again, so that converts to $40,000 today. He gives a girlfriend privilege access to hot deals. So basically, like, he gives a girlfriend the ability to, you know, invest in. In deals that she wouldn't otherwise be able to.
- [14:12]
A
Can I just say something really quick?
- [14:13]
B
Yeah.
- [14:14]
A
I have used my corporate card at times for, like, lunches or dinners, like on the way home from the airport after a business trip, like, on that very same day. And it has plagued me with fear. Just like, will this $25 sweet green order, like, if I come under, if I'm at a congressional hearing, my workplace, like, I have to say, well, technically the business trip was over, but it was on the same. Like, it's just crazy to me. $40,000 with the corporate card.
- [14:40]
B
No. I'm so with you. There was one time my boss sent me to go get flowers for his wife in like, somewhere 40 minutes away in a, in a Valentine's Day gift. And I was an executive assistant and I did not have my own debit card on me. And I bought a $5.95 latte. I, I literally was like, this is stealing.
- [14:58]
A
This is.
- [14:58]
B
I, I literally need caffeine so badly and I just hope this flies under the red. I, I have, I have felt bad about that intermittently ever since. And anyway, I'm feeling very absolved by learning, I mean, what other tricks people are up to.
- [15:11]
A
Your integrity, you know, it's not worth it. Was it, was, was it worth it?
- [15:15]
B
Honestly, Chandler, it was worth my integrity because I needed, like, I truly needed that espresso. Okay, so Bear Stearns, they look into this spending and they decide to fine and suspend him. He resigns instead. And the New York Times noted that he didn't leave Bear Stearns empty handed. He walked out with connections, credibility, and a Wall street brand name he could keep using.
- [15:36]
A
Yeah. One thing I've wondered about is clearly, okay, so, like, he had issues at Dalton, there were issues at Bear Stearns. We're gonna see more issues, you know, as we walk through the next little bit. But his reputation never really. Or like these crimes never really catch up to him in terms of his reputation.
- [15:52]
B
Yeah, I've thought about that. Because his crimes tend to repeat, but just get larger over time. And instead of just like spending 40 grand on the company card and buying a girlfriend, you know, jewelry and diamonds or whatever, he then goes on to scam billionaires. Yeah. And then scam another billionaire. And so I was, you know, searching and pondering and praying about this today. I know. And what I realized is I just think men have such huge egos, and especially when it comes to finances. I don't think any guy wants to blast how he's been schemed or scammed. Like, no billionaire wants to be like, yeah, I really got got.
- [16:28]
A
Yeah, that's such a good point because I was just like, how are these people not talking to each other and saying, don't, you know, don't let this guy, like, handle your money. No, I, I think that's really, like a good point.
- [16:38]
B
And I think that that just happened like, on, on multiple, on multiple levels across time with Jeffrey Epstein.
- [16:45]
A
Yeah.
- [16:45]
B
But anyway, so he makes a small fortune scamming investors after he leaves Bear Stearns and the first one is taking out a $450,000 investment for a deal that never materialized. So I just have a little bit of details about this. All right, everyone, you know it's coming. It's time for me to escape, espouse the virtues of the very stunning product that has personally changed my world. Early Bird CBD gummies. There's something about their magical formula of hemp derived THC and CBD. It's 12.5mg CBD, 2.5mg of THC. So just a micro dose. The feeling when I take one of these gummies is so warm and gooey. It just makes you feel like you're going to melt into your pillow or just be a little bit extra cozy at dinner. It just makes it so much easier for me to relax. And I find that half a gummy it is my secret unlock to the best night's sleep of my life. To adjusting to jet lag or to having a stunning meal and just tasting every bite even more. You guys, I cannot recommend Early Bird CBD gummies enough. We always make sure we're stocked because we absolutely love them in our house. Go to earlybirdcbd.com and use code PA20 for 20 off. One bottle will last me at least three months, so it's really not that expensive of a product. Go to earlybirdcbd.com use code PA20 for 20% off. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. March is when we celebrate International Women's Day, and it always makes me pause and think about how much women carry every single day. For me, that hits especially home with my sisters. When so many of us live in the city, we're building our careers and we're constantly trying to balance work, friendships and family. Watching all of them juggle so much reminds me of how easy it is to put yourself last. There's so much pressure to show up for everyone else and still somehow have it all together. So if that's you too, this is your reminder that your wellbeing should be a priority. BetterHelp connects you with licensed therapists who follow a strict code of conduct and they do the initial matching for you with a short questionnaire so you can focus on what you need support with. With over 30,000 therapists, they Better Help has supported more than 6 million people worldwide with an average of 4.9 out of 5 rating for over 1.7 million live session reviews. Your emotional well being matters. Find support and feel lighter in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off@betterhelp.com Popapologists that's better. H lp.com Popapologists In 1981, after leaving Bear Stearns, Epstein launched his own firm, J. Epstein Co. Co. And around that time, businessman Stephen Hoffenberg, who later ran the financial firm Towers Financial, alleged that Epstein took 450k from him for a proposed oil trading and commodities deal that never materialized. According to Hoffenberg's later statements, Epstein presented himself as a sophisticated financial operator. He allegedly convinced Hoffenberg to put up capital for the transaction. The deal never closed, and Epstein allegedly kept most of the funds. Hoffenberg later described this as a con and said it was one of the first times he realized that Epstein operated in this moral grip or fraudulent territory. So that's just a little bit of context into how he got that 450k.
- [19:59]
A
Okay, interesting, because I was wondering about, okay, you know, where did this 450k come from? I think we should now move into Les Wexner. Epstein also pursued what looked like a stock price manipulation scheme and solicited money from lots of outside investors, including the CEO of Simon and Schuster. And then he just totally disappeared with their money. There were no real consequences for these schemes. And he kept on having deal after deal that just made him more money. And then, you know, the story kind of gets weird because Jeffrey Epstein claims that he's managing the fortunes of these ultra rich billionaires, dynastic families, the kind of clients who, you know, you don't even know their names. That's how rich they are. But then when, you know, when you go back to look for the usual paper trail, verified clients, clear filings, a track record, it's very thin. And you just don't really understand, like, who was actually paying him. Like, where was all of this money coming from?
- [20:53]
B
Yeah.
- [20:53]
A
So I think, you know, we need to get into Les Wexner, who I think is, you know, the biggest person in Jeffrey Epstein's rise to wealth.
- [21:03]
B
Yeah, he provides the primary jet fuel for, I would say, Jeffrey Epstein's huge rise into the stratosphere of the super rich.
- [21:13]
A
Yeah. So Les Wexner really gave Jeffrey Epstein over the years the credibility and the credentials for him to just totally run with all these elites because he's the
- [21:22]
B
founder of Victoria's Secret, Bath and Body Works, Abercrombie and Fitch in the limited. So he is obviously not only mega, mega successful, but just also extremely connected. Yeah.
- [21:33]
A
So in 1987, a chance encounter on a flight to Palm beach connected Jeffrey Epstein with this retail billionaire, Les Wexner. And this relationship really propelled Epstein from a millionaire to extreme wealth, extreme status.
- [21:46]
B
So colleagues question how Epstein went from high school math teacher to elite advisor, one saying there was just nothing there. But Wexner kept him close. And the playbook that Jeffrey Epstein used to get these very powerful men to rely on him, to trust him, to let him manage their money, was very simple. He would convince them that their finances were a total mess, and he would basically say, like, I'm the only one who has super sophisticated strategies and can fix your books.
- [22:16]
A
So Les Wexner claims, you know, that he cut ties with Epstein around 2007 after discovering that Epstein had stolen at least 100 million. And he also claims that he was unaware of Epstein's sex crimes. I want to read this quote from the New York Times about Epstein in his early days, because I think it's very insightful. In his first two decades of business, we found that Epstein was less a financial genius than a prejudice manipulator and liar. A relentless scammer, he abused expense accounts, engineered inside deals, and demonstrated a remarkable knack for separating seemingly sophisticated investors and businessmen from their money. He started small, testing his tactics and seeing what he could get away with. His early successes laid the foundation for more ambitious ploys down the road. Again and again, he proved willing to operate on the edge of criminality and burn bridges in his pursuit of wealth and power. I don't know if people have seen the moment between Les Wexner and his lawyer.
- [23:11]
B
Yeah.
- [23:12]
A
Going around on the Internet, but, you know, he's being deposed and being asked about Jeffrey Epstein, and he's just kind of, like, giving his answers, and his lawyer literally says, I will kill you if you answer any of these questions with more than five words.
- [23:25]
B
Yeah.
- [23:25]
A
And anyway, I just thought that everyone should go look and find that video, because I think it's. It's kind of incriminating.
- [23:30]
B
Yeah. Well, and I think that, you know, you would think, how did he get away with stealing $100 million from Les Wexner? Right. And he not only got 100 million, but he also got his Manhattan townhome. Okay.
- [23:44]
A
Yeah.
- [23:45]
B
So in 2001, Wexner transferred his Upper East Side townhouse, 9th East 71st street, to Epstein for $0.
- [23:53]
A
I think this has been disputed a little bit. Okay. Because I've. I've heard, like, it was sold him for a dollar. I think Wexner claims that he did pay him for it eventually, but, yeah, he did pay him a dollar. That was. You know, it was a. It was a Real sale.
- [24:05]
B
That's been disputed. He took for it.
- [24:08]
A
No, but it, like, Wexner has claimed that he was paid X amount of money over time for his, you know, more than a dollar for the house. But it is. It is worth noting, I think, that he was probably given a sweetheart deal.
- [24:19]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And basically he also signed over his power of attorney.
- [24:24]
A
This is huge to me. This is the biggest thing.
- [24:28]
B
So he gives Epstein essentially, basically complete control over his life.
- [24:33]
A
It's crazy to give this power to somebody who's not in your family, too.
- [24:36]
B
Yeah. And so basically, people question, like, why would he do this? Why would he even possibly hand over his $77 million townhome on the Upper east side? Why would he let Jeffrey Epstein abscond with a hundred million dollars? And the thought is like, well, what did Jeffrey Epstein know about Les Wexner? You know, think about Les Wexner's brands. We're talking about Victoria's Secret. We're talking about Abercrombie and Fitch. These were brands that fetishized extremely young people, basically, as. As naked as possible. These were brands that, by today's standards, you know, their marketing would be considered to be, like, highly, I think, immoral. And I just think that Les Bucksner was, like, at the top of this. Was at the top of these companies.
- [25:26]
A
I mean, I've always said that Bath and Body Works is immoral.
- [25:30]
B
Honestly, I probably, from like, a pure sense perspective, it is. I. Bath and Body Works might have done more damage to the consumer than Victoria's Secret did to young female minds. I don't know. It's debatable. It is debatable, given just how toxic all that garbage is.
- [25:48]
A
Anyway, yeah, I. I definitely think Les Wexner set the tone for these companies, and it was very clear what the. What. What the objective was and what. What it idolized. So I think. I think you're right. Okay, let's move on from Les Wexner, though, to Leon Black.
- [26:03]
B
Yes, it's next, Mark.
- [26:04]
A
So after his relationship with Wexner ended, Epstein needed a new money source. So enter Leon Black, a new billionaire investor who paid A Epstein Over 170 million over several years for Epstein's tax and estate planning advice. Wow, that's a lot of money. For some advice, Epstein counseled Mr. Black on paying millions of dollars to several women, including how to structure payments so that they could be treated as gifts, you know, for federal tax purposes, so that they wouldn't be taxable.
- [26:35]
B
Yeah. And interestingly enough about Leon Block, because of this business relationship he's one of the few people to meet actual consequences. So he was pushed out of his private equity firm. He co founded Apollo Global management in 2021 over his ties to Jeffrey Epstein.
- [26:51]
A
So think about it, everyone. We have, you know, $100 million from Les Wexner. We have 170 million from Leon Black. That's a lot of money. It's a lot of money that he's accumulated over the years that I'm sure he's reinvesting. And, you know, this is kind of how he's able to become the extremely rich Jeffrey Epstein that we, that we really think about and know of.
- [27:11]
B
Yeah, well, I mean, one interesting side note is on the all in podcast, J Cal said that, or J. Cal basically is in the Epstein files because Jeffrey Epstein emailed him about Bitcoin in 2011. 2011 is extremely early to be in to understand bitcoin. Yeah, like people who bought Bitcoin in 2011 obviously made a F ton of money. And so basically he was clearly very ahead of things financially, so he was able to invest well.
- [27:42]
A
Okay, so as Jeffrey F Steen's wealth grows into the millions and millions, he really assembles a portfolio of real estate that is insane. So he has a private townhouse at 9 East 71st street, which is often described as the largest private residence in Manhattan, a Palm beach waterfront mansion, a private jet, the Boeing 727. I also believe he had another plane. I think he had two planes at a certain point. He also has a New Mexico property known as Zorro Ranch, an 18 room apartment in Paris, and last but certainly not least, a. A private Caribbean island in the U.S. virgin Islands. Okay, so we kind of have a lay of the land, you know, of all of his properties and the way he's sort of spent some of this money and the empire that he has set up. And I think now is the right time to talk about Ghislaine Maxwell and how she enters his life. So before she meets Jeffrey Epstein, she was from a very different kind of world than Jeffrey Epstein was. She was the daughter of Robert Maxwell, who was a British media tycoon. She grew up in the elite social circles. She was educated, polished, fluent in all of the manners of the wealthy. And then in November 1991, everything changes. Robert Maxwell dies after falling off his yacht, the Lady Ghislaine. And this event has fueled years of speculation. Investigators later uncover that he had misappropriated hundreds of millions of pounds from his company's pension funds, triggering the collapse of his empire. So Suddenly she goes from, you know, being this top tier elite, you know, socialite girl who is the daughter of this tycoon to kind of like shameful.
- [29:24]
B
Yeah. So I kind of want to talk a little bit more about his death if I can.
- [29:28]
A
Yeah.
- [29:28]
B
So because his untimely death has sparked so much speculation, he had misappropriated, as chan said, around 4 to $460 million of pension funds. Pension, the word pension is a little bit old timey. I feel like, I feel like we don't really talk that much about pensions for a little brush up for anyone.
- [29:48]
A
Yeah.
- [29:49]
B
Unaware, basically. You know, some companies, I don't know if this is still even done today because I don't really hear about pensions anymore.
- [29:56]
A
Yeah, I think so. I think you get like, I think certain, like police officers or like certain, certain industries.
- [30:02]
B
Right.
- [30:03]
A
Have a pension.
- [30:03]
B
Well. And I think now maybe it's like more of a 401k now is what they do.
- [30:07]
A
I guess. I Wonder if a 401k and a pension are like the same thing. If a 401k is just a version of a pension.
- [30:12]
B
So a pension. What's different about a pension is it, it pays you for life. So you get paid a set amount after you retire for life. Whereas like your 401k is an investment.
- [30:22]
A
Okay, so this makes sense. This is why I feel like you hear people say, like, I'm waiting until you know, 55 to quit so that I can get my pension or something. So. Because a 401k could like run out, you know, if you don't have enough money. Okay, that's. Thank you for educating me on this.
- [30:34]
B
Yeah, you're welcome. Cause I, I actually honestly googled. Cause I was like a little fuzzy on what a pension is. And so, you know, it's like when you think about people counting on that money for their, their life after retiring, it's giving Jen Shaw like one of the most egregious scams you can commit. And then you think about what he was using that money to do, which is just live some opulent, crazy, lavish lifestyle.
- [30:59]
A
I mean, I just have to say, I mean, I think also I feel like teachers have a pension. Yeah. And so I feel like it's often jobs that aren't necessarily paid super duper well.
- [31:08]
B
Yeah.
- [31:09]
A
But this is one of the benefits of when you retire, you know, you do not have to worry about getting, you know, retirement money.
- [31:15]
B
Yeah.
- [31:16]
A
And so, yeah, it is, it's especially cruel to you know, rob these people of that. That like peace of mind. Yeah. Exactly.
- [31:24]
B
And that security. So people really speculate, like, okay, so he just randomly falls off his yacht right before this is all about to be exposed. Apparently, like, privately there was murmurs, like people were kind of figuring this out. Okay, but it's right after he dies that it's publicly he's exposed as a frau, and people just find the timing of that super suspicious. People think like, okay, could he have committed suicide? Right, because he knew this was coming. But then there's also something that gets darker and weirder, which is that he had ties to Israeli intelligence. So Robert Maxwell had extensive international political connections, alleged relationships with intelligence figures, and deep involvement in Eastern European geopolitics during the Cold War. And some journalists and former intelligence have claimed that he had direct ties to Mossad, which is Israeli intellig. And he may have been involved in arms deals and political leverage operations. But there's no official proof of an assassination. And these claims are highly speculative. But the thing that is not speculation is that he received an Israel state funeral. So he got a state funeral in Israel attended by senior Israeli officials and intelligence linked figures. And that level of honor for a foreign businessman certainly raised eyebrows about this kind of theory that he was connected to Mossad and they killed him.
- [32:48]
A
Wow. So the conspiracies are all over the place with this story.
- [32:54]
B
Yeah, and I. I just think that it's. It's a very weird. It's very weird. Highly weird. Highly questionable, this death. But yeah, Ghislaine Maxwell goes from being, you know, the daughter of a tycoon to her. He dies and, you know, she's. Disgraced.
- [33:13]
A
Yeah, disgraced. Exactly. So she relocates to New York City and she shifts from the daughter of a media mogul to a socialite who is, you know, rebuilding her footing in a brand new city where nobody, you know, where people might not be as, you know, familiar with the Maxwell name. And this is where her path crosses with Jeffries. Spring always makes me want to reset my space, especially my kitchen. It's the one area I use every single day. So upgrading to caraway just made sense. I've been trying to be more thoughtful about what I cook my food on, and I love that. Caraway's cookware is made without any chemicals, like pfas, ptfe, and pfoa. It's third party tested by independent labs. But honestly, what really sold me is how good it performs. The ceramic surface is naturally slick, so eggs slide right off with barely any oil. And the cleanup is quick. I reach for these pans all the time. I'm truly in love with my set. I love the cream color. It looks so beautiful on my stove. You can also personalize your kitchen with a thick premium wooden butcher block or their Bakeware plus collection with easy release ceramic coating for quick cleanup and effortless results. Caraway is in already over 2 million homes and has more than 150,000 5 star reviews. Now it's the time to try it for yourself. Caraway's cookware set is a favorite for a reason. It can save you up to $230 versus buying the items individually. Plus if you visit Caraway.com pop you can take an additional 10% off your purchase. This deal is exclusive for our listeners, so visit carawayhome.com pop or use code pop at checkout. Caraway Non Toxic Kitchenware made Modern Popapologists is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are the things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds of Because Progressive offers discounts for paying in full, owning a home and more. Plus you can count on their great customer service to help you when you need it. So your dollar goes a long way. Visit progressive.com to see if you can save on car insurance, Progressive Casualty Insurance company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. So she started to just go to charity events, start to rub elbows with, with the elites and, you know, starts to ingratiate herself. And I think, I think she's a charming person as well. So I think very quickly she's like invited to a lot of things and people like having her around. Side note here, nothing sounds worse to me than having to go to a bunch of galas. Yeah. And charity events. Not because I don't like charity, but just like the idea of just like that's what I'm gonna do because I am just dying to meet. I don't know, like all that snooty stuff.
- [35:58]
B
To be back in society is like my worst nightmare. Yeah, it's. It's kind of like what, you know, the Jill Zarins of the world idolize the most, which is like being part of that. I don't even know how to describe it. Just that socialite Hamptons, Upper east side, just like ultra wealthy Palm beach community.
- [36:16]
A
It's just so funny. Like, I don't know, I can be a superficial person for sure, but I don't have any desire to.
- [36:23]
B
Like, it feels like the opposite of the people you'd actually want to hang out with.
- [36:26]
A
Exactly.
- [36:27]
B
Feel like fun. It feels very uncomfortable anytime I've been in a.
- [36:30]
A
Situations remotely similar to that, you know, remotely, Remotely. I feel like every time I'm just like, oh, when can I leave? Like, I do not know how to act, and I don't know how to impress these people, and I don't want to try to impress anybody.
- [36:41]
B
I think the distinction here is that Maxwell probably just grew up in an environment kind of like where her family and the people she associated with acted like the only thing that mattered or the only people that mattered were people in their circle.
- [36:56]
A
Status.
- [36:56]
B
And this was the best thing ever. And to not have status and to not be invited and to not be a part of the club, the in the in club would be the worst thing in the world. And I. I'm guessing that when she lost her fortune and also her father's reputation was disgraced, she wanted to somehow cling to the life she once had.
- [37:16]
A
Yeah. Yeah. So getting into, you know, more about Jeffrey and Maxwell meeting, they, I guess, were kind of set up for like, almost like a meeting and tea, sort of like luncheon. And this was in the early 90s. And they just kind of, you know, goes off like gangbusters. They actually start dating romantically at first. I don't know exactly how long they were romantically linked, but that fizzles and they continue to just become incredible friends. Feels weird to use a positive word to describe their relationship, but I think that Ghislaine brought something to the table that Jeffrey didn't necessarily, you know, have himself, which was just like this natural presence and ease in these elite circles and just the ability, just the innate knowledge of how to move within them and. And, you know.
- [38:07]
B
Yeah, I think that.
- [38:08]
A
Gain access.
- [38:09]
B
She gave him a sort of like, he obviously provided all of a sudden, the. The funds, the liquidity, the. The financial stability she had lost. And she provided the social lubrication in these environments. She could move smoothly through these elite circles, and she could essentially legitimize Epstein's presence in them by being by his side. So she's very comfortable in these upper echelons. And prosecutors say she played a critical role in grooming and abusing girls as young as 14, helping to normalize Epstein's access to them in places like New York, Florida and New Mexico. So not only does she, like, kind of get him into these aristocratic, you know, upper echelon rooms, but she also facilitates his introductions with underage women. And it really kind of reminds me of what mom would say to us growing up. She would always say, if you get lost, look for a mom. And if you can't find a mom, look for a woman. Right. And so I think as women, we just instinctively trust.
- [39:15]
A
Trust other women.
- [39:16]
B
Trust other women. And she really used that to her advantage because when she said, oh, come to Jeffrey's or come to, you know, come to Mr. Epstein's house, she was really saying, you'll be safe. Like I, because I do think as women, we all think we're on each other's team.
- [39:33]
A
Yeah. I mean, even just getting into like some of the nitty gritty, like she's staying in the room while these women are, you know, told to massage Jeffrey Epstein.
- [39:41]
B
Oh, she's staying in the room.
- [39:42]
A
Yes. Yes.
- [39:43]
B
That is so wild.
- [39:44]
A
So then, because, you know, then when it turns to abuse, she's there partaking in it and participating and encouraging it.
- [39:53]
B
Yeah.
- [39:53]
A
So it's not like she just like leads him. I mean, I think, I don't know if it was every single time, but she is absolutely a part of the abuse. So.
- [40:01]
B
Yeah, it's like leading lambs to the slaughter.
- [40:03]
A
Yes. Yeah. And I think Virginia said something in her book about how she thought, you know, initially when she, when she first meets Jeffrey that day, that like, because Ghislaine was in the room, she just didn't think anything. You know, she was like a little bit uncomfortable. She was like, oh, no, like she's here.
- [40:18]
B
Yeah.
- [40:19]
A
So, yeah, it's, it's, it is what to me really drives home what, what a monster Ghislaine Maxwell is and, but
- [40:27]
B
also how crucial she was to his operation.
- [40:29]
A
Yes.
- [40:29]
B
Because no 14 year old girl is going to be comfortable, you know, not having no experience in massage, just going to some guy's house and giving him a massage. Yeah. So witnesses and government filings describe a pattern where Ghislaine facilitated introductions, built trust with vulnerable girls through friendly attention, and stayed present in, in the logistics. As Chandler said, encouraging massages, creating familiarity and smoothing the path into Epstein's homes. In other words, her role wasn't framed as primarily financial. It was relational. The person who could host, charm, recruit and normal, normalize making the world feel safe right up until it wasn't.
- [41:05]
A
Okay, so now that we've sort of set up these early days how Ghislaine and Jeffrey, you know, get together, I think we should talk about the very first crack in the Epstein system. So up until this point, Epstein's world looked like a private empire. Big houses, private travel, the kind of life that, that is just untouchable. But the cracks in Epstein's world start to show in 2005 when Palm beach police opened up an investigation after the parents of a 14 year old girl reported that Epstein had abused their daughter. So detectives go on to interview multiple teenage girls, and the Palm beach police ultimately urge prosecutors to pursue serious felony charges to like, really up the ante here. And their report included recommendations for five felonies. So the scope of this case widens, the case moves beyond Palm beach, and the FBI opens up a federal investigation in 2006. Epstein is then also arrested that very same year on Florida state charges tied to allegedly exploiting minors, specifically charges related to soliciting and procuring a minor for prostitution. So, you know, it's like full steam ahead. Like the FBI has opened up a case and you know, Jeffrey Epstein looks like he could be going down. But this is where the story takes a really shocking and disappointing turn. So instead of a federal indictment, federal prosecutors in South Florida entered secret negotiations with, with Epstein's legal team. And these talks produced the federal non prosecution agreement. This was a deal that shut down federal prosecution in exchange for Epstein pleading guilty to one count of soliciting prostitution and one count of soliciting prostitution from someone under the age of 18 in state court. So this downgrade of the charges of, of the, you know, the indictment and everything is, is really a huge moment and I think we should get into that. Yeah.
- [42:58]
B
So there's just a lot of questions about this. Right.
- [43:01]
A
So this agreement remains controversial for a couple of reasons. It included language extending protection to unnamed, quote, potential co conspirators. And the DOJ later concluded victims were left in the dark as the deal was being finalized. So we're going to get into like explaining a little bit more about like what this means.
- [43:21]
B
Yeah.
- [43:22]
A
So when they say that there was protection extended to unnamed potential co conspirators, like, they're basically saying there was immunity given to other people.
- [43:32]
B
And why would there be immunity granted to potential, like, okay, so they're saying people that could have been committing these crimes with him, we're going to grant them immunity.
- [43:41]
A
So allegedly, apparently this was to avoid sweeping victims, basically girls who recruited other girls into the category of co conspirators.
- [43:51]
B
That's what they claim.
- [43:51]
A
That's what they claim. Which would include like Virginia.
- [43:54]
B
Yeah.
- [43:54]
A
Interesting. They also argued that they didn't think there were chargeable co conspirators at the time, that there was maybe enough evidence to like bring charges, I guess.
- [44:04]
B
Why keep the deal from the victims?
- [44:06]
A
So I think they kept the Deal from the victims because they were worried about people attacking their credibility, and they didn't want to kind of expose the victims for who they were. And they eventually copped to this. And they say that, you know, that the victims were not treated with the forthrightness and sensitivity that, you know, was. Was expected and that they should have been treated with at the time. Virginia talks about this in her book that, like, you know, they thought all of this momentum was there to prosecute him, and then all of a sudden, it was just, like, poof, gone. This is the deal. He's going to, you know, he's going away for these charges, and it's. What's done is done. And it was just such a slap in the face.
- [44:44]
B
Yeah.
- [44:44]
A
I mean, imagine thinking, oh, my gosh,
- [44:47]
B
like, the good guys are going to
- [44:48]
A
get the bad guys.
- [44:48]
B
Right, Right.
- [44:49]
A
And then it's just like, no, not really. Like, you know, he's actually getting a slap on the wrist.
- [44:55]
B
Yeah. He. We're just gonna make it look like justice was being served.
- [44:58]
A
Yes. But really, no justice and. Yeah, I mean, and where you get into no justice being served because, you know, he. He pled guilty. He was then sentenced to 18 months, and he was allowed this work release.
- [45:10]
B
Yeah.
- [45:11]
A
Which was up to 12 hours a day, six days a week, to go to his office.
- [45:15]
B
Yeah. So he's. So. This is so crazy. So he pleads guilty, and they give him 18 months. He actually does 13, and for six days a week, 12 hours a day, he gets to leave prison. He gets to leave. He live. That was the whole point of being put in prison. You get to leave every day.
- [45:32]
A
Yeah, apparently. I think it was something to do with the fact that he was in jail, not prison. And so the sheriff, like, approved this work release that, like. Yeah, it's still kind of hazy to me how that was ever possible. I mean, I've never even heard of that before.
- [45:48]
B
Yeah. And apparently he had, like, his own private wing in this jail. Like, he got just the most. He got the red carpet laid out for him for the very brief time he was behind bars during this time.
- [46:01]
A
And how do we know that he was not continuing to abuse people and women during work release?
- [46:07]
B
During work release, he observed or the police officers always with him.
- [46:11]
A
And I feel like that's not noted here, though. I don't know. Maybe there were, but I just. It is wild to me that you can basically, like, go to jail as your day job or, like, you can. You can like. You can just, like, live at jail at night and. And Go to work during the day and have it just be considered, you know, like, serving your time.
- [46:29]
B
We'll consider this. It's literally 8am to 8pm it's all day. You, you, you just wake up, you leave, you go back, go to sleep in two hours, and the next day's here.
- [46:38]
A
It's literally like sleeping. You're. Literally the hours that you were asleep, you're in jail.
- [46:41]
B
Yeah, that's.
- [46:42]
A
It's just crazy. It's like, what is the point? Right.
- [46:45]
B
So is this where we get to the Alex Acosta quote ever, or.
- [46:49]
A
I mean. Yeah, because Alex Acosta, I think, was like the attorney or the person who was in charge of this, of the investigation, of this sweetheart deal.
- [46:55]
B
Yeah, yeah. Alex Acosta gave a quote where he basically said that someone told him, like, go light on this guy. He's in. On the inside. Like, he, like he is connected to potentially intelligence. Who knows? But we're not going to be treating this like a normal investigation. Right, Right.
- [47:13]
A
And as we know, like, this just. This does not teach him any kind of lesson. This does not encourage him to reform his life in any way. It is. It only, I think, just, I don't know, maybe leads him to get a little bit smarter about how he. How he deals with stuff and to hide his crimes. Better. Not even that much better. There is a. A long video in the Epstein files where Steve Bannon is interviewing Jeffrey Epstein. Did you watch this?
- [47:44]
B
I did, yeah.
- [47:45]
A
So it's just a part of the big document drop. And you see Jeffrey Epstein talking about his time in prison, areas in jail. I mean, I. I think it was pretty powerful to watch. Only. Only for the. The reason that he is just pure evil. Because there is no contrition. There is no gravity for the crimes. There's just. It is like he. I don't even. It's hard to describe how light he takes everything.
- [48:16]
B
So there's one moment where Steve Bannon asked him what level of sex offender he is, and he says, tier one. And like, with a smirk, like, he's kind of a little proud.
- [48:24]
A
Yeah.
- [48:25]
B
Like, he could not be more apathetic and more brazen and just.
- [48:29]
A
Yeah, his. He's got a smile on his face the whole time.
- [48:32]
B
Yeah. What are you? Class 3 sexual predator? Tier 1. Your was tier. Tier ones. The highest and worst. No, the lowest. I'm the lowest. You're the lowest.
- [48:40]
A
Okay.
- [48:41]
B
Tier one, you're the lowest.
- [48:43]
A
But a criminal.
- [48:44]
B
Yes.
- [48:44]
A
You know, talking about. Talking about jail, talking about how, you know, people in jail wanted his advice about you know, stock. The stock market. Yeah, I truly, after watching that video and seeing honestly what a narcissist he was, I do not believe he could have taken his own life.
- [49:04]
B
Oh, interesting.
- [49:05]
A
This guy was so high on his own supply. Yeah, this guy. The fact that, like, he had already been, like, condemned kind of by the law at this point, and he is giving this documentary and he just is like. And I mean, you have talked about this before, that he kind of thought that having sex with the. With underage women was just something that our society decided was wrong, but that it was actually, you know, like, I just feel like he was so bought in on his own, he could just never see, like, any. Any negativity in his crimes.
- [49:37]
B
Yeah, no, I think that. I think that he just was living in a different dimension than most people, literally that.
- [49:42]
A
And I think that's what's very jarring to see, knowing what we know now. And what's crazy about this, these tapes, they were trying to, like, film a documentary to like, humanize him and rebuild his.
- [49:53]
B
His image.
- [49:53]
A
His image. So, yeah, so after jail, you know, his. His public image is. Is getting rehabilitated. And a lot of powerful people keep associating with him for the same reasons they did before. You know, they want him to manage their money and they want access to the people he knows, and they just. They want the Jeffrey Epstein experience.
- [50:16]
B
And they don't care that he is a convicted sex offender. They don't care that he is on, you know, that he is guilty, has pled guilty to soliciting sex from a minor.
- [50:27]
A
They don't care.
- [50:27]
B
They don't care because A, they want to allegedly potentially partake in those activities with him, or B, they don't really give a period. All that I care about is money and being part of elite circles. Who knows? But there's a lot of people who couldn't care less.
- [50:44]
A
Yeah. And one thing that New York Times reporter James Stewart sort of sheds light on is that people also felt like he wouldn't judge them because he was kind of, you know, an evil guy. Like, I would say a fun loving evil guy, you know, who was charming. And so I'm read this quote because I think it's quite interesting. So he says Mr. Epstein made no secret of his own scandalous past. He pled guilty to state charges of soliciting prostitution from underage girls and was a registered sex offender and acknowledged to me that he was a pariah in polite society. At the same time, he seemed unapologetic. His very notoriety, he said, was what made so many people willing to confide in him. Everyone, he suggested, has secrets. And he added, compared with his own, they seemed innocuous. People confided in him without feeling awkward or embarrassed, he claimed.
- [51:31]
B
Yeah, so Barry Levine, the author of the Spider Inside the Criminal Web of Jeffrey Epstein and Glenn Maxwell, said he was a diabolical monster. But at the same time, he was brilliant in a sense that he was able to maintain this incredible network of some of the world's most powerful individuals. He had a certain charisma attached to himself that put him in a position where people turned to him. He would use information that he gained with the intention at the end of the day that he was going to bank either favors from them, finances from them, or in a darker sense, I think, blackmail from some of these individuals. Abstain considered himself a people collector who made connections for transactional purposes. So, yeah, not only was he, you know, connecting people, collecting bad information about them because they felt like they could confide in him because he was an out and out and proud ne' er do well.
- [52:20]
A
And I think they felt like they could, you know, give in to their shadow side in front of him.
- [52:23]
B
Yes, exactly. So he, he basically attracted just the worst kind of people. Yeah.
- [52:29]
A
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- [55:50]
B
So he is arrested and he knows the chickens have come home to roost, if that is the phrase. I'm not totally sure but you know, in the past 10 years between or 11 years between 2008 and 2019, he didn't change his ways. We all know he continued to victimize. He continued to do all of the things that he was doing beforehand. And we are not going to get into all of that we are going to really justify. Talk about the circumstances of this arrest and then his death. And then on the next episode, we're going to be getting into more of the actual crimes committed, the victim statements. So if anyone feels like we're really jumping ahead, it's just so in this one episode we can try to create as cohesive of a narrative about his life. Yeah. From start to finish.
- [56:38]
A
Correct.
- [56:38]
B
Okay. So, yeah. So he's like freaking out.
- [56:42]
A
Yeah.
- [56:42]
B
He's like, this is bad, is nt? I mean, he's so smart, but what an idiot. Because he's like, is this about sex trafficking? Is this about the underage? I mean, he knew.
- [56:52]
A
He knew that he was still up to no good. It's not like he's like, what could these crimes be? I already, you know, went away for this.
- [56:57]
B
Like Miranda writes her, I mean, know them. Okay. Anyway, so federal agents begin executing search warrants on all of his properties. The Manhattan townhome, his Palm beach house. And then ultimately after he does die, which we'll get to, the FBI raids his private island, Little St. James, in August 2019. Across those searches, prosecutors later described and testimony supported the seizure of digital media, including hard drives and CDs. And investigators also found a locked safe containing items like cash, diamonds, jewelry and a passport. According to prosecutors, another thing they found in their raids, hidden cameras.
- [57:34]
A
Yeah, this is, this is a crazy little detail. Crazy big detail, I guess I should say. There were hidden cameras all over Epstein's properties. There is a record of Epstein emailing his longtime pilot Larry Viscoski about getting hidden cameras installed at his property. And he responded and said, quote, it's amazing how small they are, adding that they would record for 64 hours. He also said, I'm installing them into clean Xboxes now. I'll bring them by later today. So hidden cameras. Small, secret hidden cameras. They were true.
- [58:07]
B
Tiny, microscopic hidden cameras inside the homes of a man who was hosting some of the richest, most powerful people in the world. And you can imagine, you know, what exactly he was trying to record. Was it for his own sick voyeuristic purposes? Could be part of it? Or was the real reason more sinister? Was it about blackmail and control?
- [58:29]
A
Epstein recorded visitors which included politicians, high profile businessmen and celebrities in compromising positions to ensure his protection and maintain control over them. There were also reports of a media room in his Manhattan townhouse which contained a 24 hour video surveillance feed showing, like everything going on in all parts of the house. It's super spooky. So didn't and including beds and toilets. All right.
- [58:51]
B
Didn't Virginia say that in her book that she. That he walked her into a room where.
- [58:56]
A
There.
- [58:56]
B
Where it was like the monitor room. Did you tell.
- [58:59]
A
Maybe. I mean, he. The only. The biggest part that I remember that of him showing her room was the room where he had all the photos of all the women.
- [59:06]
B
Oh, okay. That's what it was. I feel like.
- [59:08]
A
But I think this is like. I feel like I've seen photos of this room in the files. So I think it's like, it's. It's not, you know, it doesn't necessarily seem far fetched.
- [59:17]
B
Yeah.
- [59:18]
A
I. I want to just note something here. So he's arrested in July. Okay. He's arrested. They start to seize all this stuff. It starts, you know, to become clear that there are probably a lot of important people in a lot of this footage. And it's literally a month later that he dies. I think it's just like, pretty staggering.
- [59:41]
B
Yeah.
- [59:41]
A
How quickly, potentially. And we're going to get into this later. The powers at B. The powers at me. The powers. The powers above. Yeah.
- [59:51]
B
The powers amongst us.
- [59:52]
A
Above us, potentially allegedly got into action and were like, this guy's gotta go.
- [60:00]
B
Yeah. And, I mean, we'll talk about the circumstances of his death, but did they say this guy's gotta go, like, off this, you know, out of this realm, AKA out of this existence, or does he gotta get out of jail? Because that's the only way we're gonna, you know, keep him quiet is if he. Well, doesn't actually undergo that.
- [60:19]
A
I'm staying out of this realm.
- [60:20]
B
Okay. So you think they killed him?
- [60:22]
A
Yes. Yes.
- [60:23]
B
You don't think there's any way he's still alive?
- [60:25]
A
I don't know. I just think that. Okay, now I. Now I understand what you were alluding to with your. With the second part of that. I thought they were like, we got to get this guy freed from jail so he'll stay quiet if he's free.
- [60:35]
B
I mean, kinda.
- [60:36]
A
Yeah, no, I know, but like, freed, but then also, like, you know, never to be seen or heard from again. I don't know. I don't. We should. I don't know. I guess I haven't formed an opinion on that. I just believe that. That. I do not believe that Jeffrey Epstein took his own life.
- [60:48]
B
Yeah.
- [60:48]
A
I believe that he was removed.
- [60:50]
B
He was removed one way, you know, to the next dimension or to another part of this one.
- [60:56]
A
I think why it feels so crazy is that there was literally one month of all this evidence Being like, you know, accumulated and, and seized. And word must have spread, you know, that, hey, a lot of people might go down in this because he's got a lot of video evidence.
- [61:13]
B
Yeah.
- [61:14]
A
And so maybe potentially, you know, the. The evil powers that rule the world came together and said. Or some of them said, this guy's gotta go.
- [61:25]
B
Yeah.
- [61:26]
A
So in late July, after an incident where he was found in his cell with red marks around his neck, he was placed on suicide watch. Although he was removed from suicide watch after about 31 hours on July 24 and stepped down to a psychological observation level. And then he was eventually returned to the special Housing Unit. So he just wasn't on that suicide watch for very long.
- [61:49]
B
On the night of August 9th into the morning of August 10th, the safeguards that were supposed to be tight around one of the most high profile inmates in the country broke down in a cluster. A high profile inmate that they had just placed on suicide watch. Okay, but just like domino's falling, basically a bunch of systems broke that usually are in place to stop exactly what happened from happening. So investigators found that Epstein was left alone and unmonitored for hours, roughly from 10:40pm until he was discovered around 6:30am the next morning. And staff failures included missed required checks and an excessive amount of bed linens in his cell. The two officers on duty admitted they didn't perform the required accounts and falsified records to make it look like they had. Investigators also point to serious problems with the Metropolitan Correctional Center's camera systems during that time as well.
- [62:47]
A
So I guess the guards. The cameras. I'm sorry. Okay.
- [62:52]
B
The guards don't do their rounds.
- [62:54]
A
I think they fell asleep or something.
- [62:56]
B
And then. And also, Chandler, just by coinkiting, the cameras stop working.
- [63:03]
A
Yeah.
- [63:04]
B
Like this is such bullshit.
- [63:06]
A
Yeah. And everyone. You know what comes next? On that very morning of August 10, 2019, Jeffrey Epstein was found hanging in his cell. The New York City office of the Chief Medical examiner ruled his death a suicide by a hanging. And the DOJ Inspector General notes that the FBI found no evidence of criminality in how he died.
- [63:25]
B
You know what? It's giving, it's giving Karen Reed, and it's just giving, like, oh, we. We took the car for an hour and then we ended up with pieces of taillight in the. It's just, it's like, it just, it. It is just giving collusion.
- [63:42]
A
So this is where, like, people cannot just leave this situation alone because just too many things happened at once. Suicide watch was removed. There was a period of time with no monitoring. The records were falsified. There were camera issues. There was also a cell status changing. And this was an extremely high profile case. How did so many things fail all at once?
- [64:07]
B
Yeah. How did all of that happen at once? In the next part we are going to be discussing just that we're going to be getting into Ghislaine's arrest. Okay. We're going to be talking about the victims accounts, what they say they actually endured at the hands of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. So as this deep dive continues, we are going to be diving deeper and darker into what happened. You know, how Jeffrey Epstein and Glenn Maxwell were able to victimize so many women. And we want to honor those victims by actually reading what they say happened to them. Because I think that bearing witness to what they endured is. Is something that we can do. Yeah, right. For their stories to be heard and
- [64:53]
A
honestly, something that I think we must do. As you know, we watch people at the top, you know, leave this case behind.
- [65:01]
B
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, and after we do that, we are going to be getting into more of the emails, the things actually found in the Epstein files. All the weird that is, that is so profoundly disturbing. But it really calls into question the, the entire system that organizes life right now.
- [65:26]
A
Honestly, at the end of this series, I can't promise that you won't be ready to grab a pitchfork and burn it all down.
- [65:32]
B
And with that, with that call to. To arms and with that battle cry, everyone, we. We'll see you in part two. Oh, by the way. Okay, Part two, excuse me, is on premium. But we really believe that this story deserves to be told and we want everyone to be able to hear it. And so we are opening up the premium for a free trial. So if you would like to sign up and listen to this story, you can sign up with a free trial. But it is going to be our Friday episode for global elites.
- [66:05]
A
Yeah, we wanted to get part two out to you super fast.
- [66:08]
B
All right, you guys, thank you so much for listening. See you on part two.
- [66:11]
A
Bye.