345: Trust Me: The False Prophet – Cults, Coercion & Religious Trauma ft. Kate Casey

Summary

Pop Apologists – Episode 345: Trust Me: The False Prophet – Cults, Coercion & Religious Trauma ft. Kate Casey

Released April 15, 2026 | PodcastOne
Host: Lauren & Chandler | Guest: Kate Casey

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Episode Overview

This gripping episode focuses on the new docuseries Trust Me: The False Prophet, exploring the impact of cult dynamics, coercion, and religious trauma within the FLDS (Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) community. The Pop Apologists sisters, Lauren and Chandler, are joined by true crime and cult expert Kate Casey, who interviewed Christine Marie—the docuseries’ central figure and an activist who infiltrated and exposed ongoing abuses in the post-Warren Jeffs era. The episode discusses the mechanics of modern cult manipulation, religious mind control, survivor advocacy, and the disturbing realities still facing women and children in FLDS offshoots.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Why We Remain Riveted by Cult Documentaries (03:11–04:10)

• Kate Casey explains the enduring public fascination with insular communities like the FLDS:

  “We all just kind of want a window into someone else’s life, somebody who lives totally dissimilar to ours…they are so insular and they're so private and they're so distrustful of outsiders." – Kate Casey (03:11)

• The trio agree that such shows allow for deep empathy and an exploration of thought patterns far from mainstream experience.

2. Christine Marie – Insider Turned Advocate (04:54–07:26)

• Christine’s unique background: A survivor of personal abuse and cult control, she later earned a PhD and became a cult expert, channeling trauma into actionable support for other survivors.
• Christine’s authenticity and embedded experience made her uniquely effective at gaining trust and effecting change in the FLDS community.

  “What makes this story different is that she actually has lived the life.” – Kate Casey (06:23)

3. Life in the FLDS After Warren Jeffs (07:26–11:25)

• Warren Jeffs retains immense influence from prison (arrested 2008, convicted 2011).
• Samuel Bateman emerges as a new cult leader around 2019, manipulating religious claims to seize control post-Jeffs.
• The ongoing communication networks and financial systems allow both Jeffs and Bateman continued influence.
• The community’s convoluted property/taxation system and trauma of state intervention are discussed, including confusing paperwork that FLDS members mistrusted.

  “These people are under such mind control. They really don’t understand…the laws of the land…completely out of their depth.” – Lauren (10:27)

4. Education, Obedience, and the Breakdown of Critical Thinking (11:25–14:01)

• Contrary to stereotypes, some women inside the FLDS do have higher education—typically those pre-dating Warren Jeffs’s stricter regime.
• Discussion on how obedience is central, noting the overwhelming effect of being taught to obey without critical thinking, setting the stage for extreme abuses.
• The chilling dynamic of families numbing their parental instincts under cult pressure is explored.

  “When you teach people to obey first and foremost and to doubt any critical thinking…that is what is going to open the floodgates for behaviors that they wouldn’t if they were thinking rationally.” – Lauren (14:01)

5. Samuel Bateman: Manipulation, Ascendancy, and Abuse (15:03–17:14; 19:35–21:42)

• Bateman’s rise: He preys on hope and desperation, styling himself after Warren Jeffs by claiming new prophecy.
• He amasses a following through fear, trauma-bonding, and offering a respite from Jeffs’ extreme directives.
• Bateman's outward trappings: white leather jacket, Bentley, funded by congregation money—a play for respect in a community that long scorned him.

  “He wears a white leather jacket like he’s Elvis and he drives a Bentley that is paid for by the rich congregant.” – Kate Casey (19:35)

• The hosts note Bateman’s profound lack of charisma, arguing followers are motivated less by attraction and more by fear and scarcity.

6. The Machinery of Coercion and Abuse (21:42–30:53)

• The circle unpacks how eternity and heavenly reward/punishment systems drive absolute obedience.
• Bateman and his male lieutenants are able to maintain control through a mix of terror, eternal threats, and leveraging spiritual language.
• Bateman's offenses include orchestrating and personally committing sexual abuse of both minor girls and adult male followers, with luxury as carrot and spiritual blackmail as stick.

  “He would have them perform sex acts on him…he would have their daughters present. It’s really graphic. The children were there and sometimes the mothers were there.” – Lauren (29:06)

7. Religious Precedent and Mind Control (30:53–34:07)

• The group draws a historical parallel back to Joseph Smith (founder of Mormonism) and early sanctioned marriages to minors.

  “There is a religious precedence for having sex with minor children in the Mormon religion with Joseph Smith…that is a fact.” – Chandler (30:53)

• Obedience and isolation are continually reinforced from both religious tradition and active community management, cutting off outside reference points and impeding meaningful intervention.

8. Systemic Failure: Law Enforcement and Legal Hurdles (34:07–38:59)

• Discuss the complicity, ineptitude, or active corruption of local police in failing to act, in spite of direct evidence.
• Christine Marie’s undercover tactics are discussed, including the physical danger she faced and her strategic efforts to document crimes when law enforcement wouldn’t act.

  “She had to play the long game…and I think most importantly, we have to be in support of people who are really in the throes of recovery and don’t always have the best way to ask for help.” – Kate Casey (41:58, 76:29)

9. Cult Dynamics: Idolization, Dissociation, and the Real Faces of Victims (43:43–47:41)

• The episode highlights the show’s choice to use AI rendering (not blurring) for minor children’s faces, which the hosts found powerful and humanizing.
• Almost all Bateman’s wives are shown as adoring and attached to him, with the truth of coercion and trauma only coming out later from deprogrammed former members.
• The group remarks on Bateman’s delusional ambitions, such as “wooing the Queen of England” with a music video—demonstrating both the farce and the seriousness of such cult delusions.

10. Survivors: Escape, Deprogramming & Ongoing Support (51:32–57:53)

• Deep dive into major survivor figures, particularly Julia and “Gnomes,” and their journeys from enmeshment to escape.
• Nuanced discussion about what makes someone a “hero” in survivor communities, especially when they were also, under mind control, complicit in abuse.
• Law enforcement’s lack of psychological training is cited as a key failure in helping survivors, noting that only when younger wives are separated do deprogramming and questioning begin.

11. Nature, Nurture, and Sociopathy (60:14–61:13)

• Speculation on whether FLDS cult conditions “breed sociopaths” or simply provide fertile ground for predatory behavior due to lack of legal or ethical accountability.

12. Reflections on Faith, Revelation, and Group-think (61:50–66:13)

• Wide-ranging religious reflection on the dangers of unchecked revelation, the impossibility of external verification, and when faith-based systems veer into totalitarianism.

  “I'm like, oh, that message came to you with that specific instruction?…Order two Bentleys.” – Kate Casey (63:10)

13. Cult Operations, Money, and Lasting Impact (66:13–74:11)

• The group unpacks the mechanics of Bateman's funding and the deep inbreeding issues causing severe genetic diseases among FLDS children.
• Discussion extends to present-day, with eight of Bateman’s adult wives still viewing him as prophet and many in the FLDS remaining devoted; Bateman is eligible for parole in 2038.

14. Interventions and Hope for Survivors (74:11–77:14)

• Kate shares more about her interview with Christine Marie, highlighting the outpouring of support since the series aired and reiterating the need for insiders to lead recovery and advocacy.
• Hosts express their own residual fears and the emotional toll of leaving high-control religions, but return to a theme of hope and the possibility of life after trauma.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Manipulation and Mind Control

  "Anybody is susceptible to a predator if you…they find you at the most vulnerable moment of your life." – Kate Casey (12:53)

• On Law Enforcement Failure

  “It’s hard for him to hear words like that with a gentle heart. And you think, well, it’s really hard for the 10-year-old, you know, minor child to be raped, so maybe get a move on.” – Lauren (36:14)

• On the “Bentley Cult Leader” Archetype

  “He must just get a high off of…think of the most stupid, unbelievable thing and just see people scampering around, doing everything to try to make my dream happen.” – Kate Casey (48:24)

• On the Power of Advocacy

  “I want women to know that you can have a life after trauma. You can live a great life after. Just takes me back to what Christine was saying. Like, she has so much hope for all of these women and children.” – Kate Casey (76:29)

• On the Reality of Deprogramming

  “It becomes as a surprise when your life actually is better than you ever imagined when you deconstruct a belief system that’s extremely limiting to your psyche.” – Lauren (76:58)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• Opening and Introduction – 01:41
• Christine Marie’s Background – 04:54
• Inside FLDS After Warren Jeffs – 07:26
• Property/Education/Obedience Dynamics – 09:02 / 11:25 / 14:01
• Samuel Bateman’s Rise and Manipulations – 15:03 / 19:35
• Sexual Abuse Details and Legal Inaction – 26:42 / 34:07
• Cult Tactics: Music Video for the Queen of England – 45:14
• AI Renderings of Minor Victims & Humanizing Choices – 46:47
• Survivor Stories: Julia, “Gnomes,” and Deprogramming – 51:37 / 54:28
• Intervention Failures & Psychology – 56:47
• Sociopathy, Nature or Nurture in Cults – 60:14
• Revelation, Faith, and the Specificity of Cult Edicts – 63:38
• Current State of the Community – 73:11
• Supporting Survivors: Hope and Help – 74:11

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Concluding Reflections

• This episode is a deep and at times harrowing exploration of the psychological, legal, and sociological dimensions of cult survival and exposure.
• The panel elevates survivor stories, especially Christine Marie’s, while rigorously critiquing systemic failures and the “perfect storm” environment that allows predators to thrive.
• The discussion ends with a strong note of hope, advocating for insider-led interventions and the possibility of rich, flourishing lives after trauma.

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For more, listeners are encouraged to follow up with Kate Casey’s interview with Christine Marie on her podcast, Reality Life with Kate Casey.

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Trigger Warning:
This episode contains frank discussion of child sexual abuse and coercion in cults. Listener caution is advised.

Transcript

[Lauren]

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[Kate Casey]

i sold my car in Carvana last night.

[Lauren]

Well, that's cool. No, you don't understand.

[Chandler]

It went perfectly.

[Lauren]

Real offer down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow.

[Kate Casey]

Nothing went wrong. So what's the problem?

[Lauren]

That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes to smoothie.

[Kate Casey]

I'm waiting for the catch.

[Lauren]

Maybe there's no catch.

[Kate Casey]

That's exactly what a catch would want me to think. Wow. You need to relax. I need to knock on wood. Do we have wood?

[Chandler]

Is this table wood?

[Kate Casey]

I think it's laminate. Okay.

[Lauren]

Yeah, that's good. That's close enough.

[Kate Casey]

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[Chandler]

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[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

Book today on the site or in the app. This episode contains detailed discussion of child sexual abuse, including specific descriptions of crimes committed against minors. Please take care when listening. Well, well, well. Welcome everybody to another episode of Pop Apologists. Today we're joined by our third blonde sister, Kate Casey, who's been on the show before. She's here to discuss the hit show, hit documentary that everyone cannot stop talking about. Trust me, the false prophet. I cannot wait to get into this with you. Kkc, thank you for coming on the show.

[Kate Casey]

Thank you for having me. Yes. When it's whenever there is a cult doc, I immediately think of you because I think all of us or everyone treats us like we were raised in a cult or that I am currently I have one in my own home because I have so many kids.

[Lauren]

Kate, I'm so excited that you're coming on because I feel like you have such a incredible mind for figuring out, like, why people think the way that they do. And you also share a very specific fascination with me and Chandler in the FLDS church. You have interviewed wives of Warren Jeffs. You've interviewed a lot of people in the flds. So you're really a perfect person to bring on. And you also just did a very apropos interview for this discussion.

[Kate Casey]

Yes. Yesterday I spoke to Christine Marie, who is the feature featured subject of this docu series, and I think she gave some greater context. So I'm excited for this conversation because. Agreed. I think that what we find most fascinating is that, and I say this of all of unscripted tv, that means reality shows or documentaries, is that we all just kind of want a window into someone else's life, somebody who lives totally dissimilar to ours. And I think when you see women in polygamous communities, the long pastel dresses, the French braids, it's perplexing. Especially when we live in an ecosystem which is so surrounded by social media and being online and they live a completely dissimilar life to our own. And they are so insular and they're so private and they're so distrustful of outsiders that I, I mean, we could come up with a huge list of all the shows and docs that have been about this community and we're all still so interested.

[Lauren]

Yeah, we would all still be binging this multiple binging this into the night. Chandler watched all in one sitting. I did. Then my husband watch started it two nights ago. We were up till 3am or 2am Again, this docu series is so gripping. And so if you have not already listened, I highly, well, not I highly recommend. I'm telling you, we are. We are going to be discussing everything. There will be spoilers. So this is really something you want to listen to after you've watched the show. I want to talk a little bit about Christine Marie first because I think that she is such a special person and you obviously just had her on. This episode is coming out Wednesday the 15th. So is your episode live with Christine Marie right now?

[Kate Casey]

Yes, Yep.

[Lauren]

Exciting. Okay, so once this episode is over, everyone can go listen to the episode with Christine Marie on Reality Life with Kate Casey. But I think that Christine Marie is such a unique individual because she's someone that suffered at the hands of an abuser and of a cult like figure. In her personal life, it was really kind of, it seemed like maybe a cult of a couple people and having escaped that. And we'll get into to the details probably a little bit later, she was able to use her trauma and her pain as fuel to help other people escape similar circumstances.

[Kate Casey]

I asked her about the person that she was in a relationship with and how common it is for people in that part of the country to say that they have messages from God. And she said, surprisingly, not that unusual. So that already kind of surprised me. And I just tried to envision myself growing up in a place where that's pretty normal that someone will say, well, I received a message from God. And then you. And then you compound that with a personality disorder and mental health issues. So I can understand why it probably was so paralyzing for her to go through that experience. And I'm always inspired by people who turn that into some sort of purpose or mission. So she, she pursued a degree in higher education, she got her PhD, she became a cult expert and really focus on that community and helping women with traumatic situations move into a place where they're free from the pain, the burden of being under someone's coercive control. So, yeah, I think that what makes this story different is that she actually has lived the life. And so many people that I have worked, watched in all these docuseries or shows over time, we're still, those of us even who cover it are seen as outsiders. So I can understand why this seems to have been the most successful example of somebody coming into their community and actually helping and healing these women and children in the process, because she understands the community the way the group thinks. And I think building a relationship in which it's based on trust because of mutual experience has been profoundly moving.

[Chandler]

Right. I think one thing about Christine is that she enters this scene, you know, the FLDS community in the post Warren Jeffs era. Like, once Warren Jeffs is already in prison. And I think that's what also makes this story so interesting, is that, you know, we all were following the Warren Jeffs, you know, that. That whole, you know, stint of that whole part of everything. But, you know, I didn't really know much about what happened after he went to prison. Like, I had no clue what state these communities were in. And so the fact that she, you know, arrives in Colorado City. Correct. Is what they call it. And, you know, she's just kind of there, like, how can I help these women? And, like, what she stumbles upon is so. So alarming.

[Kate Casey]

So it looks like, you know, he was arrested in 2008, but he's not convicted until 2011. And then Samuel Bateman starts having these visions and these voices in 2019, and then it becomes the Samuelites. So then we're looking at 2008 to 2019. There are still devout parishioners, and they are getting messages from him. And the problem, it seems, is that there's so much money in this community that they're somehow able to put money on the books of Warren Jeffs and Samuel Bateman. So if you are still devoted to him, you're still getting messages from him.

[Chandler]

Right.

[Kate Casey]

What is not totally clear to me is how they all can live on the properties and how the money works.

[Chandler]

They don't finish the houses.

[Kate Casey]

They all look like they're like ramshackles, Right.

[Chandler]

And I think there might be some loophole where if you don't finish your house, you don't have to pay the same amount of taxes on it or something that's like.

[Kate Casey]

Or maybe you don't have to leave, because I would have thought Warren Jeffs owns all the properties, but wouldn't they be confiscated once he went to prison? Unless they have some sort of filtering process where there are other people that the. That the deeds are in their names.

[Lauren]

So basically, Warren Jeffs, when he exerted so much control over the community, part of it was they had to surrender their homes to the church. And it's a state. And essentially what happened was, is once he went to prison, the state seized that trust or that entity, and they started reallocating those homes to the original owners. And so what's interesting about that is Warren Jeffs would kick out these people from their homes, take their homes, take their wives, reassign their families. Cause. I mean, cause such an extreme amount of trauma in the community. And so the people left living in those homes once they were seized and started being returned to the rightful owners. Those are the very evictions that Christine is working to help kind of those people work through, because those homes are being returned to the apostates. And when she says in the docu series, you know, they believed they would have to sign a paper that went against their religion. That paper, I was. I was like, what is that paper? That paper was Actually just saying that they would pay rent to the people who owned the home, and they didn't believe that they should be paying money to apostates. So it's. It's just so baffling, the situation that these people are in. And that's kind of a repeated theme in the docu series. You know, these people are under such mind control. They really don't understand, like, they really don't understand the law, the laws of the land that they're subject to. And they just seem to be completely out of their depth when it comes to dealing with law enforcement, dealing with, you know, anyone with any sort of actual legal power. So, yeah, that's. That's actually what was. What was going on in that opening scene. And that's really what Christine came for. Right? She came to help the people with. She was going to try to help people get free, obviously, but before she could figure out what was happening, she just started helping them with survival. And I thought that was what was so powerful.

[Kate Casey]

You know, what was surprising too, is I asked, I said something along the lines of, well, it seems as if when you're devoid of any sort of education structure, you're going to cling to maybe the liturgy or whatever the, you know, the. The information that the church provides. She said, surprisingly, or to my great surprise, there are people, women within the community who do have degrees. I thought none of them had advanced degrees or even like above, like an 8th grade education. And she said there are women with degrees.

[Lauren]

Well, under rule on Jeffs, people could go to public school and people could get an education. And it was Warren Jeffs who said no more public school. People could only go to the FLDS school. And the rules just became so much more intense and horrible. He outlawed celebrations. He just made everything much more totalitarian and draconian than his father, Rulon Jeffs. And so it's probably women who are raised with Rulon Jeffs primarily being their prophet. That's. That would be what I. What I think, because there's. They so believe in Warren Jeffs as a prophet, even, you know, one of the main. I wouldn't say character, but one of the main people who figures prominently in this docu series. Julia. Even though she eventually, you know, finds her way out of the grips of Samuel, Samuel Bateman, she still has a photo of Warren Jeffs, you know, displayed prominently in her home.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah, well, it just kind of replaced for me, this, like, ongoing message is like, it's all about the fragility of the mind and anybody is susceptible to a predator. If you. If they find you at the most vulnerable moment of your life. Yeah.

[Chandler]

Or if they have your entire community ensnared where you don't know anybody else outside of this in group. And, you know, like that when I don't. You know, I don't know if this is getting ahead, but, you know, when we. When Julia and her husband sort of start to unwind their crimes and what they've participated and what they've allowed to have. Have happen, I was just so struck by how you can numb your own basic human instincts as a parent, as a woman, you know, as. As a person. You can numb them to the degree that you allow, like, you know, that you allow this other man to assault and, you know, rape your children. And it's not until you almost wake up that you can realize, oh, wow, that that was a terrible thing for me to, like, participate in and allow to happen.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lauren]

Because obedience is the first law of their religion. And that when you teach people to obey first and foremost and to, you know, doubt any critical thinking going on inside of them, that is what is going to open the floodgates for behaviors that they wouldn't if they were thinking rationally. So I think I just want to give a quick little synopsis maybe, and then we can kind of get into what exactly happens. So, basically, as everyone knows, Warren Jeffs, he goes to prison for, you know, raping children, for the sexual abuse of minors. And after that, he still controls the community from prison, and he is issuing his edicts. And everything gets worse in the community. They no longer can get married. They no longer can even have sexual relationships within marriage. They can't hug anymore. And the town is just in very dire straits. Christine moves there. She feels called to move there. She just goes to help these people. She helps them with these evictions we discussed. She also helps them with trying to earn money because they're impoverished. And one of the things she notices is that there is this figure in the community named Samuel Bateman who seems to be kind of randomly popping up with new young wives. And this is outlawed by Warren Jeffs. And so he very clearly is not following the rules of the prophet. And it essentially comes out within the community that he believes he is the next prophet. And Warren Jeffs, he claims, is dead in prison. And speaking through him, ironically, that is exactly how Warren Jeffs took power from his father, Rulon Jeffs, and also how Brigham Young asserted power after Joseph Smith was. Was killed. So there's a. This. There's this pattern where, you know, a person claims they are now the prophet, they're speaking for the deceased prophet. And there are some minds that are easily kind of swept up in that and will believe it. And one of the people who believes it is this, this man in the community named Moroni. Now, Moroni and his wife had been, and his wives had been sexually active. And one commentator in the docu series says, you know, you can't proselytize human nature out of other people. And, you know, because he, he had not been following perfectly the rules set up by Warren Jeffs, he finds solace in this new man claiming to be the prophet because it abdicates him of going against Warren Jeffs. So essentially, Samuel Bateman is able to amass this very tiny following within the FLDS community. Three of them being men who have one who owns a company that makes a lot of money and two that work for that company a lot. Yes. And they're able essentially to completely, you know, pay for his lifestyle because he gets them entirely under his control. He also gets them to, you know, sign over essentially, or give him many of their wives, almost all of their daughters. And it's this really crazy situation, this horrible situation where essentially this, this man, Samuel Bateman, who used to be a loser in the community, right? He, like, he had one wife and he didn't really have a job, couldn't make money. All of a sudden he's kind of this king of like 50 people of the LD of the FLDS. This Mother's Day, I keep thinking about how moms are the ones that generally create a really comforting home environment. They make homes feel soft and warm and taken care of, but somehow they can be the last ones to get that comfort back. That's why I love Cozy Earth as a gift for moms. Their robes are elevated and luxurious, but practical in the best way. They're incredibly soft with thoughtful details like roomy pockets, adjustable ties, and a really flattering drape. Something like the waffle robe or the rib terry bathrobe that just makes everyday moments, morning coffee, getting ready, winding down at night, a little more luxurious and special for your mom. And their slippers are the perfect extra touch. The puffy sheep slippers have that soft cushioned, spa like feel that just makes being at home feel more indulgent. And while you're gifting, it's also nice to know that everything comes with a 100 night sleep trial and a 10 year warranty. Let this Mother's Day be a reminder that she deserves care too. Discover how Cozy Earth turns everyday routines into moments of softness and ease. Head to cozyearth.com and use my code POP for an exclusive 20 off. And if you see a post purchase survey, be sure to mention you heard about Cozy Earth right here on Popapologists. Because home starts with mom.

[Chandler]

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[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

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[Kate Casey]

And by the way, we can't get past the fact that he wears a white leather jacket like he's Elvis and he drives a Bentley that is paid for by the rich congregant.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Kate Casey]

By the way, doesn't he look like JD from Southern Charm? Do you remember like the early season? He looks just like him.

[Chandler]

Have you ever seen JD from Southern Charm?

[Lauren]

Is that you?

[Chandler]

Is that you?

[Lauren]

Oh my God.

[Chandler]

You're asking the right questions. And I, I have to also just take a minute here and also say that I just struggled so much with Samuel Bateman's energy and the idea that he was able to woo so many men and women because to me he is, to use one of Lauren's favorite terms, such a gummy person.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah, but he's more attractive than the other ones. Let's be honest, it's Slim Pickens there. It's like the worst high school that you've ever gone to. And like one guy that's like maybe his eyeball is not wavering to one side is like the only available one. Right?

[Chandler]

I mean, I just felt like he had no Even when looks aside, which I'm glad to know. I'm glad to know where you stand on his looks now, but he, he didn't even have any like charisma. I don't know, he was so soft spoken. He just had no true Riz the risk.

[Lauren]

He sounded like an occult leader, bumbling idiot. You could almost not make out what he was saying because he spoke so softly and inscrutably. Chandler I completely agree and it baffles the mind, but I think that, I don't think they actually were attracted to him at all. I think what happened was, is they were in such dire straits, fear of it, you know, they couldn't get married, they couldn't continue their lives, that he gave them hope of life continuing essentially. And you know, at least like two of his young wives said I really wanted a baby. And so I basically they were motivated, I think by life continuing in some form post Warren Jeffs. Yeah, and then I think they were also motivated by fear. That's like the biggest motivation.

[Kate Casey]

I think you're right. Total fear. Even Gnomes says that like I just held on to every word because going against him I was just so fearful of like, what's my future? And maybe you could speak to that a little bit too. Is even with like mainstream Mormonism, there's, it seems like there's this ongoing discussion of like what happens to you after you die. Is there some sort of layer that's like always, that always exists there?

[Chandler]

I mean, I think there's, there's the idea of your eternal salvation and that is wrapped up in your faithfulness and how faithful you are to how much, how much you keep God's commandments, how obedient you are. And that like, that, that applies to mainstream Mormonism, you know, present day. And then that also applies to people who are flds, people who are Samuel Lights. You know, how faithful are you to Samuel?

[Kate Casey]

It's so sick how they always say in all of these cult documentaries and even in certain religions, you know, obedience equals freedom.

[Lauren]

Yeah, well, and that's one of the key distinctions between Mormonism and Christianity is in Mormonism you're, you're saved by your works, AKA your obedience and the things that you do. And in Christianity you're saved by grace. So mainstream Christianity believes that Christ atoned for your sins already and all you need to do is accept him as your Lord and savior. Whereas in Mormonism it's a very distinct belief system. In the flds, they take that behavior obsession to the extreme. And I would say that, you know, Mormonism is a high demand religion and the FLDS is a totalitarian religion where all control is exerted. And you kind of see. You see the. Where that can lead. And so, yeah, I think Naomi, or Gnomes as she goes by is a really important character to discuss because she's one of his, you know, most devoted wives. She's essentially always, like, sitting at his feet and looking at him starry eyed. And you would think, I don't know, you would think it was like Chandler with one of the members of the Format or whatever or the Strokes when you were totally.

[Kate Casey]

I was just gonna say, I mean, they have them ready.

[Lauren]

He's like a rock star.

[Kate Casey]

These journals where they're like, I'm so devoted to you and there's no outside. It's almost like, remember the Bachelor, when those girls would be like 25 girls and they'd be sequestered for the duration of filming and they're convincing themselves this dodo bird is like the person that they need to be engaged to. It is surprising. Again, the fragility of the mind, what people can be convinced of. And they're young, they're impressionable, they're vulnerable. And they're writing in these journals like, I'm so devoted to him. He is so wonderful. And the way that she's looking at him really, truly is like she's at a One Direction concert

[Lauren]

that is Harry Styles. And I think that one of the crazy parts is when she reveals after you've seen all this footage of her idolizing him. You think she's obsessed. And then she reveals later in the docu series that she did not want to become a member of his family or one of his wives. And she resisted it for 11 months. Her. The man who was the patriarch over her home, not her father, Lidell, he basically coerced and pressured her and told her that it was the Lord's will for her to become a Samuelite and one of Samuel's wives. And in the docu series, she ends up revealing that, you know, she really just lived in fear, that Samuel held her eternal salvation. And so her mind, I think it really forced her into that state.

[Kate Casey]

By the way, what if a woman in this community said, I'd like a Bentley. I like to wear a white leather suit. And I'm hearing from Jesus and he's like, here's what's up. It would be like, you're insane. She'd probably be jailed. It's all of these men, these dodo bird, loser throwaway men who say, oh, you know what? I. I've got a Watts line. I gotta call and this is what's up. And they all have to just go along with it.

[Chandler]

I'll never understand why, you know, God picks all the losers to talk. I'll never get it.

[Kate Casey]

The losers.

[Chandler]

I'll never get it.

[Lauren]

Yeah, it's such a great question.

[Kate Casey]

Like the loser in high school who was like smoking cigarettes underneath like the bleachers and didn't have one girl girlfriend and was barely passing class. That's the one that the Lord.

[Chandler]

That's the one.

[Kate Casey]

Yes.

[Lauren]

That's the one who unsurprisingly needs divine intervention to get laid. And they try to manufacture that. I think that. Okay, so one of the craziest parts of Daniel Bateman or excuse me, Samuel Bateman. And sadly I did read a lot of the court documents because I just needed more information. My brain was like dying to know everything. So they kind of. They briefly show him and Lydia, his first wife and a picture of them. And Christine says when I met Samuel, he was down on his luck. He was getting a divorce from his first wife. And, and basically so she said she was so surprised when all of a sudden he had all these wives. Well, apparently he. Do you guys know this?

[Kate Casey]

No. I don't know.

[Chandler]

I'm ready. What are you about to say?

[Lauren]

Apparently the reason Lydia divorced him is because he had a revelation that he was supposed to marry his 14 year old daughter. And he told Lydia this and then he also told his daughter this on a car ride and he said he would give her $50 and a large bag of Doritos if he would allow her to show her how babies were made. Yeah. So this is the sick fucktard we're dealing with.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah.

[Lauren]

And that is how this all began is. It's just the details in the court document are in the court documents are so much more vivid and it's so much worse than what they show in the docu series. It's really, it's really tragic.

[Kate Casey]

What I can never understand is there are so in these communities and we even see this in the Duggars, obviously as of late there's all this, all of these predators and were they all victims of it? And it's just re. Victimizing. What. Why in these communities do all of these men have this sick fascination with minors?

[Chandler]

I mean I think there's unchecked power for men obviously. And then I think there's also a lot of sexual repression and like perversion of, of sex and you know, so much of it is repressed. Yeah, I mean that, that those are my knee jerk responses. What do you think, Lauren?

[Lauren]

I think that there's just there. There are some men who are addicted to sex and they. That just fuels their brain and it becomes this very perverse thing. And they suddenly, you know, they want. They want things that are beyond the scope of the law to get gratified. And then I think there's also, of course, always the layer of power as well. Right. Where like this happens. In the Samuel Bateman case, you know, his male followers, some of them were subject of. Of being raped by him as well. These adult men who are literally funding his life. He is also raping.

[Kate Casey]

That's what. There is a layer to it that they don't really reveal. They'll say things were so bad, they were beyond. And they don't really get to what it is. Of course, they mentioned that they're essentially. Sounds like orgies, but.

[Lauren]

Yeah, exactly.

[Kate Casey]

But that must be part of it is that he was also raping the men.

[Lauren]

Exactly. So he would instruct not only, you know, those men to be with his wives, often underage ones, but he would also say that, you know, they needed to be sealed to him in such a way. And he would perform. He would have them perform sex. Sex acts on him. He would also rape them. He would have their daughters present. It's really graphical. The children were there and sometimes the mothers were there. And one thing that she says in the documentary is that, you know, eventually he stops doing the church classes that he likes to hold and he just has sex with them all day, every day with the young girls. Because he has basically two homes. And in one of the homes, he houses all of his young wives and none of the men are allowed there. And then it. That's the house that is essentially ostensibly this ongoing orgy. And I think that it's. I want to say, like, I don't take any pleasure in discussing these. These things in detail, but I just do also think that it's what. What has happened to these people deserves to be known, you know, like called

[Kate Casey]

out for what it is.

[Lauren]

Yeah, like the more we are just like young women were sexually abused. No, that's not what was happening here. Like something much more graphic horrific was occurring to these, to these minor children. And that's one of the things I really loved about the FBI officer is she said, you know, she would only refer to the young, the underage wives as minor children, and that's exactly what they were. And so anyway, I just, I think it's important for. For the crimes to be understood, stood in full.

[Chandler]

I Also want to say, going back to the original question about, you know, why does this perversion, why are these predators in these communities? I mean, you know, this, this is true and real. But you know, there is a religious precedence for, you know, having sex with minor children in the Mormon religion with Joseph Smith, you know, that is, that was an early thing that happened in, in the Mormon Church. And you know, that is disputed by some people who still believe in the religion, but that is, that is a fact. And he had wives who were, you know, 15, 14, and you know, like there was, there's a, there's a religious precedence there.

[Lauren]

Yeah, there's religious precedents and I think that, that it made it very easy for them to justify. Right. And they say they actually interview some of these, these minor children, wives and they talk about how there's no such thing as underage marriage in the priesthood. And they say, why should Heavenly father let a 15 year old not get the blessings if she's ready? And you just hear like how just the mind control, you hear the mind control at home.

[Kate Casey]

Heavenly blessings is like outrageous.

[Lauren]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kate Casey]

And also, you know, it kind of reminds me too, I grew up in, in Pennsylvania, not far from Amish country. And it's a similar kind of mindset where girls are not able to get an education. I mean, not that the boys get much, much more of an education than the girls, but you, you, that you have a purpose and that is to be at home. And the fact that they isolate the entire world disallows anybody an outsider to go, wait a minute, you deserve more than this. So they don't have anybody around them that they see as an example of it. They only see their mothers and their grandmothers working within the home or the property or the farms. But also, again, it's the same thing with the obedience. This is the way that our church believes this is in all of the, the scriptures are, you know, pounding that message in and again and again. And the last thing is that in the Amish community they have their own way of handling any legal cases. Like it's basically their own police force, lawyers, justice system, like they take care of it all within. And I think that that's what makes this case so murky too is there must be some sort of belief system like we will all handle it within our community. And I think that someone, the person that shows Short Creek did that on purpose because it lies this area. It's two cities that lie on the cusp of different states. And so then there are jurisdictional issues and also state issues, so that every little matter that needs to be handled, you have all of these different obstacles within your. Within your own community. And then federal and state and local authorities. And then, as we've seen, the local authorities are so in bed with the community, there's very little chance that a survivor can come forward, be trusted, and feel like that they're going to be protected.

[Chandler]

Right.

[Lauren]

Zero. I mean, there's essentially zero chance.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

The local police in this documentary were so baffling and, you know, it was horrifying to think that these are the law, these are. This is law enforcement. This is. This is the representation that these people have. I also want to say, like, I think these people believe that God's law is higher than man's law and the law of the land. So, like, the laws of the land are just not even honestly on their mind. They do not believe that they are, you know, that they're in any way or shape, you know, that they have to follow them. But when. When the local officer is played this recording that Christine has of Samuel Bateman talking about these sex crimes with minor children, you know, where he has instructed, you know, some of the men that they can sleep with some of the minor children. They can, you know, rape them. Excuse me, I should say. And so she has this recording of him talking about how, you know, he got this prompting this revelation that he needed to have this happen because he needed to suffer as Jesus suffered, you know, and it's. Nothing is. Nothing is worse to him, or nothing is harder for him than the idea of, you know, someone else sacrificing the virtue of his girls. That nothing's more precious to him than the virtue of his girls. So by giving them to these other men and allowing these men to rape them, he would then suffer like Jesus suffered. This is his. This is his explanation for why God told him to do this. And so she has this recording of him saying this. She gives it to the police, and they basically say, like, this isn't enough. And then he says, you know, I've only listened to it once because, you know, I've got a gentle heart.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah, well, he's also being paid off. Yeah, well, I asked Christine about that in the interview. Like, why do you think this? Well, I. I said, you know, you have faced criticism as also the law enforcement for not moving sooner. And, you know, what is your response to that? And she said, they're right. Like, I don't understand why it took so long. And then I asked her, do you think that they're the, the law enforcement are being paid off. And she said, I did kind of do what else makes sense.

[Chandler]

I agree.

[Lauren]

There's almost no other explanation. Yeah, he's, he says, you know, it's hard for him to hear words like that with it, with a gentle heart. And you think, well, it's really hard for the 10 year old, you know, minor child to be raped, so maybe get a move on. But no, they basically do nothing until. Because they keep saying we need more evidence, we need more evidence. And they do nothing until she keeps pestering them and it's seven months later and finally, you know, she brings them more information, calls them with more information. And finally she says, like, can we get the FBI involved? And he's, and he says, well, it has to be interstate. And she says, these crimes are interstate. And you would think that if the police were acting, you know, if they were acting correctly, that they would say, okay, we need to figure out what crimes were committed across states so that we can get the FBI involved. Involved. We don't need the citizens, you know, journalists to give us that idea.

[Chandler]

Yeah, I think that cop should be in prison. I, I think too, this community has already had these crimes happen and they're already like ripe for this type of scenario to happen again. Why are they not paying attention?

[Kate Casey]

I think a part of that too is when they did that raid in Texas, what was that? 2018. There was a lot of backlash, if you remember. No, maybe it was 2008. What was it? It was like 20. Remember when they did that raid in Texas and that all of the, the media came down on the way it was handled because they separated the women. And it was like a lot of these big media moments that, and that, and of course the community was able to spin it, like, look what you've done to our people. And I think that the, the law enforcement on that side of it is what is probably a little bit hesitant because they're afraid of the backlash, right?

[Chandler]

Yeah, but it's like there was plenty, especially after she had the, after she had the recording. There was, there was plenty, you know, for them to at least begin a real investigation, you know, and my mom

[Kate Casey]

once said this to me too. My mom was a childhood survivor of assault by a priest, like the family priest. And she once said this to me and I was like, you know what, you're right. She said no one cared about the little girls that were being raped until the boys were.

[Lauren]

Wow.

[Kate Casey]

And so I think that, that there's a lot of truth to that. I mean, these are women and children and I don't think that's a high priority.

[Lauren]

Yeah, no, it's, it, it's really, really sad when you, I think, understand that there can be such a, a lack of honestly, empathy for the female experience from men. And I just think that it's, it is just something that occurs. Not all men, but a lot of them. And it's only if they see something happening to a little boy do they really recognize the humanity and feel urgency.

[Chandler]

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[Kate Casey]

Have you ever had undercover? No, I have, I've had. I do. Really. I had to do that with, as a child with my stepfather. My stepfather had like schizophrenia and a mood disorder. And so they'd like delusions of grandeur. He was a pathological liar. And I, as a kid, I had to do that. So I thought about that a lot as I watched this and how awful it is when you're in situations where it's like deceptive entrapment, where you're trying to bait someone into giving you information, but you have to like, play the game.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Kate Casey]

How awful it feels on the other end. And I, and I think a lot of people that I've seen that have had some criticism about it. I think it's because it like plays into that feeling. If haven't been at that point at some time in your life where they could see it as maybe she was being deceptive to the women and to the children, like she was betraying their trust. But I ultimately think it's the only way that those women and kids could be saved because they reject any outsider. And she had to play the long game. And so then I run through all the conversations where she's listening to all of the women tell what they've been through and then listening to this fool who thinks that like, like, you know, Queen Elizabeth's gonna like, swing by and love him and how just the, the spider web effect of it all. But, but you're, what you're speaking to, I think is so true. Is that deceptive entrapment and how you're in moral conflict over it?

[Chandler]

Yeah, I think that was the only way, the only way that she could like, get to know them. And like, yeah, she did have to gain their trust. And there was like. You know, I think that I, I think that she was really one of the only people who had like this experience going into it. And I just, I, I believe she is a hero in this story.

[Kate Casey]

She also has that, like, that there's something about her at the beginning of it. I don't know if you guys thought this too, where I was like the first episode, I was like, who is this lady? I mean, she's got these wackadoo outfits and her voice, but that's like the sensory part of it all. Like the way that they all have to keep sweet and talk like that. Like, yeah, he had to play the role. I don't know how many of us could do that. You know me, I'd be like, what the hell is going on here?

[Lauren]

I even think just keeping a straight face would have been so hard. So at one point, you know, bumbling idiot Samuel Bateman, who really sounds like. He really just sounds like he has an IQ sub 40. Anyway, truly maybe 70. Anyway, he basically, he's. He's talking to the. His wives with Christine there and Tolga, who should not go unmentioned, her husband, who, yeah, documents everything. And he's also a hero in the story. And anyway, he's saying how important goals are. And he says, one of my goals is to become the leader of the ruler. Excuse me, of north and South America and possibly England. I like how it's impossibly England. It's, you know, it's on the table. But we're not, we're not there for sure. We don't know for sure. I was so.

[Kate Casey]

But the way that she played that up, she. When she was like getting ready for the queen, can we get curtains and the paperweights? And she kind of leans into that, like, oh, yes. And she's gonna come and like again with the leather jacket. And I just don't know that many people who could play that long game.

[Lauren]

Well, yeah, it's. It's absolutely an Oscar worthy performance. I think the part though. So basically later in the docu series, they. He concocts this idea for a music video in order to woo the Queen of England. Okay. Siren song of sorts.

[Kate Casey]

I need people to understand she is not making this up.

[Lauren]

No, this is fully true.

[Kate Casey]

Correct.

[Chandler]

While we were watching this show, our other sister was further ahead of us in the series and she goes, let me know when you get to the music video. And I'm like, what the hell she talking about the music video. And then, lo and behold, 45 minutes later, we get to the music video for the Queen of England. And this is his idea, is the music video. She. Christine's not like. Like, he's like, I received revelation. We need to film a music video of us singing this, like, strange, eerie, religious hymn, wooing queen. Yeah, I know. And anyway, it's just. It's amazing when she's. Yeah. When she's, like, gassing them up during the music video, telling them, you know, how to smile, how to really sell it. And then I don't know if you guys caught this moment where Tolga, where there's one of the wives who's very small, who's an underage child, who's a

[Lauren]

child who looks like she's in elementary school.

[Chandler]

Yeah. And Christine is trying to show all of them in a picture. And she goes to kind of put the little girl up on, like, a step stool up on, like, a block. And then Tolga's like, oh, no. Like, you know, just leave her. Leave her as. Leave her be so that you can see. And then he kind of, like, trails off.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

Because they're all, you know, the reason why, like, they're. They're taking music when they're also evidence

[Kate Casey]

of that in unison with the crazy. Him. And you see, like, two old faces in it, and you're like the generations.

[Chandler]

Another just small detail. Is that so for all of the, you know, underage minor children. They do. AI.

[Kate Casey]

Thank you. Like, yeah. Digitization took nine months for them to

[Lauren]

do that part, I was gonna say,

[Chandler]

because that it was quite impressive to me, because I think, you know, typically you could just. You would just blur them. But I thought that that was. It honestly humanized it in a way. And it was so spooky, and it was like. They did look like little children. Yeah. Their faces looked not totally human or like, you know, you could tell they were a digital rendering. But that was important to show how, like, when you're seeing all of these women around him, these women hanging on him, you're seeing little children acting like his wife. Like. No. One of his wives.

[Lauren]

Yeah. No, I thought it was such an. I thought it was such an important thing for them to do in order, like you said, Chandler, to humanize their stories and to make us fully see what was happening. Because if they. If the faces had remained blurred, I just think makes you confront the horrors less.

[Kate Casey]

I agree.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Lauren]

Yeah. I also think that, you know, so one of the things that gets. I mean, so many things really quick, briefly before we leave the music video, which we could spend.

[Kate Casey]

I mean, the fact your sister wrote you, that is. That's not gonna leave me. I'm gonna laugh about that for a little while.

[Lauren]

So he reveals to everyone that he, that he wants to make this music video. And he says that his next step is to bring the Queen of England over for him, for her to become one of his wives. And he says, I, I don't know why, I don't care why. And it's just like you don't care why. You're not even interested in the reasoning. It is so bizarre. And I just thought it was just such a hilarious moment. I don't, I don't know why. I don't care why. It's just the next step.

[Kate Casey]

He must just get like a, like a high off of. Let me just think of the most stupid, unbelievable thing and just see people scam like, like scampering around, just doing everything can to try to make my dream happen. Like he could have been like, I want to start an amusement park. And they'd all be like drawn up plans and he must have got like some sick like, like kink off of it.

[Chandler]

What's the house that he's trying to build? The most beautiful house on earth. I mean, it's kind of giving Donald Trump, not gonna lie. But you know, they've got this rendering of like this gaudy house or whatever. But the crazy thing is that they had enough money to actually do these things. I mean, he has a Bentley as a Range Rover.

[Kate Casey]

Should I tell him what a nightmare it is to have all these people living in your house? You think you want a lot of people in your house. Okay, come over to mine. Stay a couple hours. You want to show.

[Lauren]

It was so, it was so bizarre though, because, you know, he. They have these two Bentleys, they have these Range Rovers. And I'm just so confused because they're living in pure squalor. Truly, the homes that they actually live in are. There's just crap everywhere. It's really, it's real squalor.

[Kate Casey]

So, by the way, isn't that a guy? Like a guy could live in a shack, but if he can have a Ferrari.

[Chandler]

Oh, that.

[Kate Casey]

Or anybody who lives in Orange county, they have the same mindset too.

[Chandler]

And a white leather jacket.

[Kate Casey]

Yes.

[Lauren]

Yeah, it's all about what he can drive around and like Christine says, kind of give an F you to the people in the community who he felt, you know, treated him like a loser for so long. Like now there's a new chief in

[Kate Casey]

town for that scene in the Bentley, they played him like a fiddle. Like, okay, he's gonna be feeling himself. We're gonna have him drive. He's gonna be like, let me take my car out. And then you just, like. They played him so well. God, it was so. It was masterful.

[Chandler]

Masterful, indeed.

[Lauren]

No, it absolutely was. And I just thought also, Christine was so brave throughout the docu series. Like, when she goes. I can imagine how terrified she was to actually reach for her phone and record then, because she could have been outed at that moment. And, you know, I. I do think that there was a terrifying level of control over these girls and her life and Tolga's life. The both of our lives very much were actually in danger during multiple parts of this docu series because, you know, they have a gun at the house when the FBI does their raid. You know, one of the girls says, I need my. I need my AR15. If, like, if they come, they die, we die. Like, it. It gets really. It's really, really crazy. And Christine knows this before the raid, and she still says she has to be there, that she wants to be there for them, and that really is putting her life on the line.

[Kate Casey]

I can't just still can't go to her. There's all this footage where she's, like, in someone's kitchen with all of the women with her, like, little sparkly outfit on. And the way that she got access to that is, like, unbelievable.

[Chandler]

It's unbelievable. I. I want to talk for a minute about Julia.

[Kate Casey]

Okay.

[Chandler]

Because I think she's another huge figure in this. So Julia is Moroni's wife. And Julia, you know, in Moroni being swept up in Samuel Bateman's scheme, she then allows and they, like, allow all their daughters to be married off to Samuel. And she. You know, as the documentary progresses, Christine starts to notice that Julia is hanging around a lot more, and she is just sort of finding reasons to come to her house. And she really is like, the first wife who. Who kind of breaks the fourth wall, who decides, I'm gonna actually tell Christine about what's truly happening here.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

And I just thought it was so. It was amazing. And then first Samuelite.

[Lauren]

Not one of his wives, but first Samuelite.

[Chandler]

Oh, right.

[Kate Casey]

But that's also, like, an interesting moral question. Is that what I've read from threads that people who are in that community, they do not see her as a hero because she ultimately did allow him to be with the children. So is a question is, can you Come to a point where you want to be freed and despite the. The choices that you've made, like you turn a corner and then try to help women in the end, can you be a hero in this situation?

[Chandler]

Right. I just feel like what she did was incredibly brave because she had to. She. They could tell on the inside that she.

[Lauren]

That she was skeptical.

[Chandler]

That she was skeptical. And they asked her, are you. Are you feeling the temptation to turn Brother Samuel into the. Into the law? So I. She had to have one of like, you know, she had to have the most courage, I would say, out of, like, out of anybody.

[Lauren]

Yeah, well, and I think that ultimately I fully nev. I never fully landed that plane about Christine's bravery. But I think that, like, when she was in the car, who knows what they would have done if they had figured out that she was recording and that she was. Would potentially turn Samuel in. I think he was their prophet. They would do anything to protect him. I think when it comes to Julia, it's like, what would they do to her if they knew that she was going to turn them in? And you know, one of the things that he does to get control over Julia is he says, you know, you know, that sweet, innocent toddler son of yours, I'm gonna give him to someone else in ways you cannot even imagine. So he. So he threatens kidnapping, at the very least sure of her child and her being separated from her child if she does not comply with everything. And so, yeah, she's just in such a horrific, horrible position. And it does just demonstrate so much bravery that she was able to. That she was able to. To seek help. And because she was correct when she said, you know, I saw that police station, but I just thought, would they hear woman's One woman's cry? They wouldn't. They would not hear her cry.

[Kate Casey]

What about when gnomes walks in and sits down where you're like, holy. By the way, can we talk to her about changing her name? I can't handle the gnomes. I can't handle that.

[Lauren]

You know what? I kind of think gnomes is kind of cute. I'm down for it.

[Kate Casey]

But if she sat down, I was just like, wow, I did not see this a coming.

[Lauren]

Especially in the street clothes. Cuz you realize she's been deprogrammed at that point.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah.

[Lauren]

And that was just so powerful.

[Chandler]

Yeah. I mean, I mean, like, Julia isn't even fully deprogrammed because she still seems to be a part of this faith. I mean, the Warren Jeff's photo is hanging in the background of her interview and I think that's one of the most fascinating things is like some of his most devout wives. Like there's gnomes and then there's the other one whose name I'm forgetting, but it's Julia's daughter Maretta, I think, who

[Lauren]

like have the most went to prison.

[Chandler]

Passion and vitriol for Christine and just, you know, when they find out that she was, you know, a traitor, like they, after spending time in prison because so for people who haven't seen, they go to prison because they do, you know, participate in kidnapping some of the younger children from DHS from like, you know, like a home where they were being protected while, you know, all this was being sorted out. So because they kidnap them, they go to prison for a year and while they're in prison they both fully deconstruct and leave. Leave it all behind.

[Lauren]

Yeah. Once they're out of the environment and they're not surrounded by, you know, like minded believers, they're able to start kind of thinking somewhat clearly and let a question or two seep in. And I think that, you know, it's. It's really crazy to me that law enforcement is not more aware and like, basically there doesn't seem to be enough cross training in psychology with the way that law enforcement works. Like they take all of the minor children, wives and put them in the same place in foster care. So they're all together. And it's not until they're separated that they start working with law enforcement and finally kind of start breaking down their belief systems.

[Kate Casey]

I do think we have a problem in our country with, I think too many people in positions of power don't get involved because they couch it as like we're respecting someone's religion. What they don't understand is that's being used to weaponize. So that, that's a big problem. And then the other thing I was thinking of is like, like in this case with Julia, she's so much older and she still has got Warren Jeffs on the wall. I mean the guy has not been in power since 2011. I mean within the community, obviously. I've just said that he's still sending messages out. But sometimes I think when someone's older, it's hard for them to admit that they follow the wrong person because you basically have to admit that your entire life was a lie.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Kate Casey]

So maybe there is more hope for the younger people who get to escape.

[Lauren]

Yeah, I think admit to themselves. Right. Like, I think that just having to deconstruct Your entire life potentially being devoted to something that's all lies would be the most painful and most traumatic thing versus, you know, deconstructing at a much earlier age. For sure.

[Chandler]

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[Lauren]

Okay, one thing I want to touch on briefly is it would be easy to think that he was really swept up in his own delusions, I think. But I do believe that he was a sociopath and had no empathy for any of these people because, you know, he really did fully understand what to do in order to, in, in order to evade detection. So for example, he takes precautions not to get the, the child, the, the child brides pregnant. And also when they're at the music video and she wants a photo, she says, you know, we wanted to get a photo of him with all the wives because we wanted to show the how small some of these children were. And one of them that we talk about got married to him when she was 9. And I believe there was a 10 year old also that was videoed and so or part of the docu series. So anyway, he says, you know, oh, let's not do that because that's how they caught Warren. They had those photos. And I just think that unfortunately he was actually probably did have an IQ greater than 70 because he was, you know, he wasn't fully buying his own, I think and thinking, oh God will protect me. This is my, you know, this is my divine right. He did know that he was what he was doing was illegal and he was taking precautions.

[Kate Casey]

That's a really good question. I really think that's an interesting one because clearly this is a community which is breeding sociopaths. The conditions that they live within, within. They're taught like there's going to be one person and they can change the rules all the time.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Kate Casey]

They're learning how to skirt legality. They're basically teaching them how to, you know, obscure yourself from law enforcement, how to cheat, how to steal. And then they've got the suppression of sexuality. There's no discussion about sexuality at all. So is it like are they breeding sociopaths? Are they made, are they born that way? Is this environment. It's a good question.

[Lauren]

Yeah. I don't know if sociopathy is nature or nurture, but I, it, it is a really good question.

[Chandler]

I mean it's certainly like the prime environment. You know, if you have those tendencies to act on them.

[Kate Casey]

Like think about like for sure, Jim Bob Duggar. I mean that guy was like a car salesman. I mean, and he was cheating his whole family out of any pay. They had to filter it through him. I mean the, if you are raised by a dad like that who's like, it's like being raised in the mafia. That's your value system. That's how you operate, that's how you think like business should be running.

[Chandler]

But these people also carry them this like righteous crusade or this idea that

[Kate Casey]

they are like craziest part about it. It's like yeah, super correct.

[Chandler]

Yeah, like God speaks to me through me. It's just, it's, it's mind boggling.

[Kate Casey]

I'll never in my life get past people thinking that they get messages from God.

[Lauren]

That doesn't seem that counterintuitive to me because I think a lot of people, secular people will say, you know, you rely on your intuition. And I think that, you know, in Mormonism they believe in revelation, that you can have personal revelation. So I, I, to be honest, that to me doesn't actually seem surprising at all. But it's so I think people you

[Kate Casey]

can never cross check it, you can come up with the craziest. But then you're like, well that's why, well like there's no proof, there's no receipt. Nobody saw Jesus come down himself. You know, you could like make up anything and, and no one can come and ask you for proof of it. And that's what I think is the scariest thing of all.

[Chandler]

What I will say too in Mormonism, I think people, it's more like people receive revelation for themselves, not necessarily for a group of people.

[Lauren]

That's what I. Yeah, sorry, that's what I meant by personal revelation.

[Chandler]

But I do think they do also believe, though, that the prophet of the Mormon Church.

[Kate Casey]

Who.

[Chandler]

There is a prophet in the Mormon Church. Modern day guy, he really receives revelation for everybody who's Mormon.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah, well, that's no different than the Pope getting a message from God, right?

[Lauren]

Yeah, yeah, it's. I think that it's. It's all a little bit par for the course when it comes to religious thinking, especially if it's like really specific.

[Kate Casey]

I'm like, oh, that message came to you with that specific instruction. It wasn't like, heal the sick, take care of your family, love the universe, love Mother Earth.

[Lauren]

Order. Order two Bentleys. Yeah, live in a sheen.

[Kate Casey]

Order two Bentleys. Remember the guy from Wild Wild Country? I mean, with the. Everyone's playing the recorders on the carpet and he's pulling up in Bentleys like the role or Rolls Royces. I mean, they're so specific. It's just hard to wrap your brain around.

[Lauren]

Yeah, there's a very specific revelations. I think one of the parts of the docu series that I just have to double tap on a little bit is the way that, you know, you kind of see Christine and Tolga filming Samuel and the wives, and they're just so idolatrous of him. They seem to adore him so much. They're like constantly petting him and things seem kind of merry and cheerful. And then Julia, once she, you know, gains trust in Christine or she. Yeah, she gains trust in Christine and reveals to her that actually what's going on with the scenes behind the scenes is completely different. So when she leaves, apparently Samuel is berating them, calling them vile names. He's abusing them. There's a ton of misery. And I just felt like, yeah, it was. It was so interesting to hear what was actually happening. And she said, you know, he would play on his computer all day and all of the. The wives would go work, they would clean homes, they would clean airbnbs, even if they were pregnant, even if they were sick. And then when they got home, they had to write in their. They had to write affirmations, drilling for hours, saying things like, you know, I love you, father Samuel, like, very.

[Kate Casey]

Like Keith Ranieri.

[Lauren]

Keith, yes. Very Nexium coded for sure. Like, there we. He was. It was just. What was happening was so bad.

[Kate Casey]

Do you think he watched the bell? That's a good question.

[Lauren]

I mean, I felt like I Feel like Keith Ranieri was going on at the same time as Samuel Bateman. Which kind of leads you to wonder, okay, you know, Christine Marie had this thing happen to her. Nexium is occurring. The faz thing is occurring. How many of these. How many of these cults exist that we just have no idea about?

[Kate Casey]

Terrifying.

[Lauren]

Terrifying.

[Chandler]

Okay. I'm curious if you got, like, the impression from Christina, if she talked at all about, like, ever seeing the mask fall with. With Samuel and, like, maybe seeing that side of him that. That, you know, that would turn into this demon. Obviously, she's. She. I think she said it makes some startling revelations.

[Kate Casey]

But towards the end, I mean, he obviously was acting for. He was so consumed with, like, the imagery. I know. I did ask her. I did say something like, with all of these cult leaders, what gets them in the end is that they want acknowledgment, and that's why they end up getting on video. And that's what really, like, ends up being the proof. But they can't help themselves. They want to acknowledge them. Yes, exactly.

[Lauren]

Yeah, that's such a good point.

[Chandler]

Wait, wasn't he, like, ripping off other thought leaders and then reposting it on YouTube? Did I. Is that. Did that. I mean, like, he was like. Because he had, like, also a YouTube channel.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah.

[Lauren]

So he. He would go to masterclass masterminds in Cancun, and he was like, like, basically trying to be a ripoff Tony Robbins type, and he was watching all these motivational speakers. And so, yeah, it's like Sensian consulting or something. I was on the YouTube earlier today.

[Kate Casey]

They didn't get any of your information because I feel like they're going to be in contact with you soon so you can attend the seminar. That's. That's the problem with all of them. Like, I don't know. I still get mail. When I met. When I was in college, a freshman, my mom, of course, she's like, so up her alley. She had a conversation with the lady on the phone who worked for the phone company, and she said, oh, I have a son. I have a daughter. Let's set them up on a blind date. I went on a blind date with a guy in the Church of Scientology. I went down to Philadelphia, and it ended up being a tour of the Church of Scientology. Crazy incense. And that's a chapter in the book. But, yeah, I still get mail from them. They will never let you go, these groups. Never. They keep tabs on you, huh?

[Lauren]

No, it's. It's true. It's absolutely True. Well, I just. I hope I don't hear from sensi and consulting or whatever. I hope their cookies aren't very strong.

[Chandler]

Okay, one quick question I had and I wanted to, you know, see if you guys maybe had more. More answers on this in your research. But he is trying to wipe his phone.

[Kate Casey]

Phone.

[Chandler]

Like once they've collected his phone, once he gets arrested the first time, he's like, can I delete signal? Can you. You know, they have my phone, but can I do a factory reset, you know, from. Away from it? And. Yeah, what. What is he trying to screw up his phone? Because she said they didn't get that much evidence when they did get his phone. Like what other. I don't know what Crimes.

[Kate Casey]

Pictures.

[Lauren]

Probably smart enough to not. To not, you know, say on signal, you know, to not send photos or have photos sent or to not, you know, really admit to crimes. But he probably. There was probably just enough there to allude to what was happening. And I thought it was really sad. That was actually, I guess him wanting to know if a phone could be wiped remotely was enough to arrest him. But saying that he had given underage children to middle aged adult men for sexual activity. The recording of that was not enough. That was so strange to me. Yeah, he doesn't even do it. He just asks if it's possible. I. That was. That was wild.

[Chandler]

One other crazy part is that they talk about how, you know, during these orgies people were watching online. And I wanted to know more about that.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah.

[Lauren]

So basically what that was is he would have some of the underage age. It was kind of. Some of his wives would teach the underage why or the young, really young ones how to pleasure him. And they would be watching on. On video. And I think that that is kind of how they were instructed. Yeah, that's who was watching.

[Kate Casey]

Feels very. Feels very Epstein too.

[Lauren]

Yeah, very Epstein. Yeah. Another tragically sad part of this. Did you guys catch, you know, in the corner whenever they were in. I believe it was the. The greenhouse. There would be a child on a ventilator just in the corner on the couch.

[Kate Casey]

No, I didn't think I saw that.

[Chandler]

I did. I did notice that. I didn't notice it multiple times, but I did notice one scene where a child was like.

[Lauren]

Was.

[Chandler]

Yeah, would. Had some time to breathe.

[Kate Casey]

Well, that was filmed. They started to film that. What, 2019. It was Covid related.

[Lauren]

No. So basically within the FLDS because they get rid of so many of the young boys and ostracize them and they have so Few men who are procreating with the women. There is just so much like closely linked DNA.

[Kate Casey]

Oh.

[Lauren]

That. There's this. Yeah. The inbreeding. There's this very rare genetic condition that basically renders some of their children without the ability to walk, talk, like, basically exist, period, except for on a ventilator. So not only are some of these women, you know, going and cleaning houses for money, but they're also somehow also taking care of children who have this. This horrif. This. This condition that's actually so rare in normal society, but it's proliferated among the FLDS. And that's what happens when basically there's, you know, 20 guys impregnating.

[Kate Casey]

And they're old men, Right?

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Kate Casey]

Well, yeah, I'm sure that also men that are between. I wouldn't say anybody younger than, what, like 35. 35 to 60, maybe.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Kate Casey]

Because the old guys get rid of the young ones because they want to be the hobby. Right.

[Lauren]

Because they're the competition.

[Kate Casey]

They're the competition.

[Chandler]

Yeah, I know. They interview one of Julia's sons, I believe.

[Lauren]

Or was it gnomes?

[Chandler]

And this brother. I think it was Julia's son, anyway. But there's no other young men.

[Lauren]

Like.

[Chandler]

No. I feel there was a.

[Kate Casey]

A few little boys and they have. And it's literally like they drop them off and they're like, bye, bye.

[Lauren]

They have no education road, and then they just drop them.

[Chandler]

It was just crazy to me to see that, like, those men have been fully run off, too. Like, I knew about the Lost Boys and how that is the thing, but just. It's. Yeah. Just. It's not. It wasn't even addressed. It was just kind of like, you know, assumed. Yeah. That that's what happens here.

[Kate Casey]

And they also dis to regular life with these bonkers names, which is like, you got to change your name because it's like you stick out like a thumb, basically. You have a weird haircut and your name's Malachi and you have, like, weird clothes and you talk strange. Like, they all have that, like, weird accent.

[Chandler]

I know.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah.

[Lauren]

I mean, they're just completely unprepared for modern life. And that's just another way that they've been. That their life has been just so incredibly handicapped by their religion. Right.

[Kate Casey]

You know what a good way to infiltrate is that My mom said the Hershey Medical center had a special section that was dedicated to the Amish because that they have so many inbreeding issues.

[Chandler]

Oh, wow.

[Kate Casey]

And so that's where they would, you know, even Though they only think that they should, you know, stay within the confines of the community. And nobody. They don't trust outsiders. They do have to go to the Hershey Medical center to get the care for them that like those rare conditions. So that might be another window into or a vehicle in which to infiltrate that. That community is if they could get medical professionals, somebody should start some sort of program to study that rare condition and then they can get people in there.

[Chandler]

I mean, and that kind of leads me to like, where are we now? You know, what. What does the community look like now? Is there another Samuel Bateman who's popped up? Who's. Who's the next guy? Because it just seems like without. I don't know, it just seems like this is just ripe to happen in these communities.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah, I. I think you're sadly right. There's going to be somebody who pops up.

[Lauren]

Eight of his wives still believe that he's their prophet. Eight of his adult wives. And then, yeah, I think amongst the flds, I don't know what the general situation is, but I do think a lot of. Of that those people, if not most of them, still believe. And he is set for parole and he's eligible for parole in 2038. So, yeah, I'm. So, Kate, can you share, you know, a little bit about your interview with Christine? I'm sure you just got so much insight, and so I'm. I'm going to run to listen to it. I'm. I am so excited.

[Kate Casey]

So I asked her in the beginning about her previous experience and what that letter led her into, her studies and working with Colts. Oh, at the top of it, we talk about how she was on sister wives in 2013, that I remembered her from the episode because I'm a weirdo who remembers stupid stuff like that. So we talk about that. We talk about how she infiltrated Samuel Bateman's world, how she became a, like a member of that community, becoming like a trusted friend. The filming of it, her frustration with law enforcement. And then at the end, we talk about the reactions that she's receiving from this series and said she has been overwhelmed with the amount of support. She said, I have not received one negative message, which really surprised her, and how people literally all over the world are now wanting to support the women and children of this community and how much it means to her and how people can get involved. So, yeah, I thought it was really interesting. And then I. On the back end of that, I also covered the Predator of Sevilla, and that's like four episodes about a girl who went on a study abroad to Spain and the man who was running, like the study abroad program was assaulting all these girls and how she used her pain to track down other women who had been assaulted by him and eventually bring him to justice. And I just felt like those two back end stories, because in that one, I interviewed Gabrielle, the girl that this happened to, and she became the advocate. And she said, in the end, I want women to know that you can have a life after trauma. You can live a great life after. Just takes me back to what Christine was saying. Like, she has so much hope for all of these women and children. And again, it's like you have to take your power back. And I think most importantly, we have to be in support of people who are really in the throes of recovery and don't always have the best way to. They don't always know how to ask for help. But we have to do it in a way that's not harmful and pushy. We have to do it in the. In the. In the right way. And that's why I think we need to rely on people who have been through similar life experiences to really understand.

[Lauren]

Yeah. I think that, you know, there's one quick thing that I heard Gnome say in an interview, which is that she was afraid when she was leaving that she would be struck by lightning. And that's a common thing. They tell them, like, the world outside of this is so terrible. You're. You. You could get even get. You'll get struck by lightning, by God, leaving, and then. Then you're in this like, hell of wickedness, which is the normal world. And I had a. Not the same level of fear, but I had a fear of leaving Mormonism. And I just, you know, it definitely becomes as a surprise when your life actually is better than you ever imagined when you deconstruct a belief system that's extremely limiting to your psyche. And so what a. What a powerful message from Christine. I'm. I'm very excited to listen.

[Chandler]

Yeah. And I'm excited to dig in more to that other series.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah. It's right up your alley. Did you guys go study abroad?

[Chandler]

I did a study abroad.

[Kate Casey]

Oh, yeah. You need to watch it.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

Wow.

[Lauren]

I was a nanny in France, but that was. That's a different tale for another time.

[Kate Casey]

That is a tale. I'd like to. To hear more about that.

[Lauren]

There's actually an episode called Au Pair Nightmare. It's like the fourth episode of this episode of this. Kate, you can go listen. I'm listening to Reality Live with Kate Casey. Dig into aupair Night Nightmare episode four of Pop Apologist. You guys, thank you so much for listening. And Kate, thank you so much for being here.

[Kate Casey]

Thank you.

[Lauren]

We love you.

[Chandler]

Thank you Kate.

[Lauren]

Bye guys. Bye. Pluto TV has thousands of free movies and TV shows.

[Chandler]

We're coming at you with everything we got.

[Kate Casey]

This is the mindset.

[Lauren]

This is the mantra. Free.

[Kate Casey]

This is the with movies like Pineapple Express, the entire Star Trek film franchise and Gladiator, and TV shows like Survivor, SpongeBob SquarePants, the fairly odd Parents and

[Lauren]

Ghosts, Pluto TV is always free. Huzzah.

[Kate Casey]

Pluto TV stream now pay Never.

[Lauren]

Hey, quick question. Why do you keep thinking you can change that man?

[Kate Casey]

I mean, you are not his mother.

[Lauren]

Let someone else change that poopy diaper and focus on yourself. Hi everyone, I'm Violet Benson, your Russian vic sister and an almost adulting Violet Benson. I give you that tough love, dating advice and reality checks that you didn't ask for but you absolutely need. We talk relationships, confidence, mental health, boundaries, and how to finally stop settling for crumbs. You deserve better, babe. And it starts with me. So new episodes every Thursday. Come hang out with me, follow rate and review almost adulting wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, I must admit, I'm such a procrastinator when it comes to holiday gifting. So if you're anything like me and tend to leave Mother's Day shopping until the very last minute, I have amazing news. Macy's bouquet of deals is happening right now and new deals are dropping every single day. We're talking KitchenAid, Lancome, Prada Hotel collection, and more. So if you've been putting it off because you don't know what to get, this is actually a very good place to start. What I like is that it doesn't have to be some huge splurge to still feel thoughtful. They have a ton of great gifts under $50, which is perfect if you're shopping for multiple moms, mother in laws, grandmas, or just trying to stay under budget. And while you're shopping, don't skip Macy's backstage. The store within a store that feels like the ultimate treasure hunt. They have fun finds under $25, making it a great stop for thoughtful add ons, budget friendly gifts or something for yourself. Shop now in stores or online@macy's.com

[Kate Casey]

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[Chandler]

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