← Pop Apologists
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- [00:01]
Stassi Schroeder
Is your dad the kind of guy
- [00:02]
Chandler
who lingers at the jewelry counter, talks about his next dream piece and still treasures that one watch he got years ago? Come on.
- [00:09]
Stassi Schroeder
I know you know the type.
- [00:10]
Chandler
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- [01:27]
Stassi Schroeder
Well, well, well. The awaited pop apologists deep dive on Ask not by Maureen Callahan. The night, the day, whatever time you're listening, it is nigh at hand.
- [01:43]
Chandler
Correct? Correct. And I, I have a bone to pick because. Oh, gosh, I certainly mentioned years ago when I first read this book that I had that I was reading this book and then I loved it. But we got so many DMS that are like, you guys have to read a ass. Not. People are just, you know, screaming at us. We had to read it. And I was like, y', all, I've read it. I loved it. I talked about it. Yeah, it actually deeply bothers me when people don't remember every single thing I've ever said on this show over our 360plus episodes.
- [02:11]
Stassi Schroeder
So no one else can tell Chandler is hormonal. She might be kicking off her cycle tomorrow.
- [02:16]
Chandler
I told Lauren, I said, mark your calendar. Every 25 days I get my period. And today I became enraged on the phone.
- [02:23]
Stassi Schroeder
I got a phone call that was I would. I would consider that to be nothing short of irate.
- [02:27]
Chandler
I was irate. I was livid irate. I was biting heads off.
- [02:31]
Stassi Schroeder
You've never been, like, in that state towards me.
- [02:34]
Chandler
No, I mean, I definitely. I was.
- [02:36]
Stassi Schroeder
Not that.
- [02:36]
Chandler
It was not a 10 out of 10. It was probably like a 7 or an 8. And I could feel myself getting more and more angry, but with less of an explanation as to why. But then the beautiful, you know, knowledge, you know, came to me, which is that I am on, you know, I'm near day 25, which means that the cycle will be starting. So I just want everyone to mark their calendars and 25 days.
- [02:58]
Stassi Schroeder
You've been chastised once. Listeners, dear listeners. And let's just see how many more times Chandler is going to, you know, make some snide remark at your own expense or yours.
- [03:08]
Chandler
No one's safe. No one is safe. I noticed that Ben started to, like, tidy up, and then I said. I was like, okay, I don't want to be like, you know, I don't want to be a, you know, terrorist. And he was like, I'm not nervous. But I. But I could. I could tell that he knew that that would make me feel a little bit better, as if some of the dishes were cleaned up.
- [03:25]
Stassi Schroeder
Ben is such a sweet partner to you, and I'm grateful that you have him. I really am. He takes a lot off my plate.
- [03:33]
Chandler
Alas, a lot of people live under my reign of terror, and you're one of them.
- [03:36]
Stassi Schroeder
That's so true.
- [03:36]
Chandler
Everyone, welcome to the show. We have a gorgeous deep dive. You know, that we are ready to share with everybody about the one and only Jackie. Oh, Jackie Kennedy.
- [03:47]
Stassi Schroeder
Jackie Kennedy Onassis. Jackie Bouvier.
- [03:51]
Chandler
Bouvier.
- [03:52]
Stassi Schroeder
You know, the pronunciation is in here, so we'll get to it. I will be candid. I did not know a ton about Jackie O. Except that I loved looking at pictures of her style. So this was a really fun deep dive to research because I learned so much more about this woman. And she's incredibly dynamic. She's incredibly scholarly. Okay. She's a learned woman.
- [04:14]
Chandler
She's kind of like what you think you are.
- [04:16]
Stassi Schroeder
She's. She's who I thought I would be and fell so far short of.
- [04:20]
Chandler
I thought of you because, you know, as we'll learn, she spoke multiple languages.
- [04:24]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah.
- [04:24]
Chandler
And you said to me, not even three weeks ago, you said, I'm going to learn another language. And I basically laughed in your face. And I said, that day is come and gone. You're not learning another language. It's never going to happen.
- [04:36]
Stassi Schroeder
Do you guys see the abuse I endure? I mean.
- [04:38]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [04:38]
Stassi Schroeder
Anyway, we're not going to make this deep dive on Jackie Kennedy about me, but no, I find her to just be impressive cerebrally as well as sartorially.
- [04:49]
Chandler
Yes. And we, we find out that she, you know, had to like dumb herself down in, in the search and the effort to land a man.
- [04:58]
Stassi Schroeder
Correct. And she really learned kind of some toxic cycles growing up that I think normalized behavior from not only Jack Kennedy, otherwise known as John F. Kennedy, father of JFK Jr. And
- [05:16]
Chandler
why was that so confusing?
- [05:17]
Stassi Schroeder
Well, because throughout, like, basically throughout Maureen's book, he's referred to as Jack Kennedy. And I kept being like, who's this other figure? And it took me a minute to actually have it coalesce that John F. Kennedy went by Jack.
- [05:30]
Chandler
Yeah, it's like a nickname.
- [05:31]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah.
- [05:32]
Chandler
And then his father is Joe Kennedy.
- [05:34]
Stassi Schroeder
Yes.
- [05:34]
Chandler
So there's Joe, Jack, John again. Well, there's actually Joe, John slash Jack, then John again, JFK Jr. And I
- [05:42]
Stassi Schroeder
think most of our listeners are most familiar with JFK Jr. So really this is about JFK Jr's dad's wife. Wow.
- [05:51]
Chandler
This is about Carolyn Bessette Kennedy's. Yes. This is about CBK's mother in law's wife. Mother in law. Yeah, exactly.
- [05:58]
Stassi Schroeder
Father in law's wife. Exactly. And also happens to be a historical figure.
- [06:03]
Chandler
Yes.
- [06:04]
Stassi Schroeder
So not only was she Carolyn Bessette's mother in Law and JFK Jr. S mother, but she was also the first lady of the President of the United States States, John F. Kennedy, who happened to be assassinated.
- [06:15]
Chandler
Right, Absolutely. I was trying to make a Ryan Murphy joke, but it just wasn't coming to me fast enough. But let's begin enough musings about who she is to us and other people.
- [06:25]
Stassi Schroeder
Correct. So we all. I think it's an American affliction. We're deeply interested in the Kennedy family. We are absolutely captivated by this dynasty. But I think that what's really important about Asking, which is really the series that we're deep diving is all of the women who were betrayed, murdered, raped, who were essentially their lives were destroyed by the Kennedy men. That's really the exploration of her book and how we're going to approach this series is we're going to focus on Jackie Kennedy. First today, Jackie Kennedy Onassis, Jackie O, Part two. On Friday, we're going to be talking about Carolyn Bessette, cbk. Yes. And then parts three and four are going to get into the lesser known but equally important story and women who fell into Kennedy men's orbits and sadly were never, you know, the same.
- [07:18]
Chandler
We're going to talk about Ted Kennedy's wife. We're going to talk about RFK Jr's wife.
- [07:23]
Stassi Schroeder
By the way, I was always raising the flag over RFK's ex wife who perished, who actually, like, took her own life over him. It's a story that was, you know, ill reported on and has been ill reported on.
- [07:35]
Chandler
Yes, yeah, absolutely. There, there's a lot of, a lot here and there was a lot here when it came to just the men. But I think, like, the women's stories are equally as important and, you know, much less told.
- [07:47]
Stassi Schroeder
Yes, absolutely.
- [07:48]
Chandler
And these men are icons of American history. And there's actually some, you know, some very dark facts here about, like, their lives and the women who were in their lives and what they did to them. And so I think that's what makes this book very important and why we have to, you know, bring it to our show. To the pop apologist show. Yeah.
- [08:06]
Stassi Schroeder
And to the pop apostles at large. One thing I want to say is that this book is filled with vivid details. Now, Maureen says in the beginning of the book that everything that she's reporting on is verified by other people that study the Kennedys. Right. That they all agree these things happened. However, there are details that are very specific and quite vivid. And honestly, for me, I really was baffled how she could know certain things. For example, she knows about private things that happened between her and jfk. And it's a very, very intimate details that don't seem to have any sort of corroboration that I could find online. So I do think that, you know, this is a, this is essentially a synthesis and deep dive on her book. We are not verifying that everything we're reporting here is fact. We are just saying that this is according to the book as not. Yeah.
- [09:01]
Chandler
And a lot of people have written books about the Kennedys. This is, you know, she's not the first. There's a lot of stories about these people and I do believe the majority of what she, what she shares is true.
- [09:11]
Stassi Schroeder
I think what's, what's crazy, and I think what I just want to brace people for is it's such a departure from the image we have of the Kennedy men. And so it can feel, it can just feel like very jarring, but it probably is all true, which makes it even that much more shocking.
- [09:28]
Chandler
Yeah. And I think that, you know, one thing about Jackie is that she really protected her husband's legacy. And, you know, we are now, years and years later, past, you know, her death, past, like this era. And some things are being brought to light about who these people really were.
- [09:44]
Stassi Schroeder
Right.
- [09:45]
Chandler
But we have just been kind of living in the Camelot, like, delusion, a lot of us, you know, and so it's going to feel shocking.
- [09:51]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah. And I. One thing about JFK and the era that he was brought up in or that he was president in is it was the last era where the press actually, actually protected the misdeeds of elected officials and of. I mean, that, I guess, still can somewhat happen in the US but we are much more interested, I think, the presses and especially tabloid journalism in exposing people's secrets and not in protecting people's secrets. And so I think that's another reason why JFK's reputation has remained pretty sterling to people who don't do much reading up.
- [10:26]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [10:26]
Stassi Schroeder
Because it's just not that it wasn't that widely exposed. And it was not exposed at the time. It was kind of just known in.
- [10:31]
Chandler
In those circles, I mean, and also just not only the presidency, but just like men in general was like, they're, you know, their misdeeds were just like. That's just, you know, like, that's how it works. It was just. Everyone just, like, looked the other way.
- [10:43]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah. And it was. It was relatively expected. So, anyway, without further ado, let's dive into the life of Jackie Kennedy, ostensibly the most famous of all the Kennedy women.
- [10:55]
Chandler
Yes. Agreed. Okay, everybody. So Jackie was born in 1929 in Southampton, New York, into a very wealthy, socially prominent east coast family. Her father was known as Blackjack Bouvier. His name is John Verneau Bouvier iii. He was a Wall street stockbroker with French roots. And her mother was Janet Leigh Bouvier. And, you know, they had all of the trappings of a, you know, prestigious Southampton family. They were wealthy, they had horses, they all went to private schools. You know, they were part of New York society. But they were certainly not a perfect family. And behind closed doors, you know, there were. There were a lot of issues. Yeah.
- [11:37]
Stassi Schroeder
So blackjack was glamorous in a way that sounds fun in a biography, but probably in real life was quite exhausting. He was handsome, charming, stylish, and adored by Jackie. But he was also known for drinking, gambling, womanizing, and being unreliable. Yeah, he was the first major man in Jackie's life, and he really taught her that. Unfortunately, he. Charm and damage could kind of come in the same package in a Man. Which could help explain why she was so drawn to jfk, because she kind of grew up loving and revering her father, who also happened to be a philanderer and a womanizer.
- [12:13]
Chandler
Right, right. That that behavior was modeled for her and her mother. Janet was, you know, a force all her own. Janet was a very, you know, strict mother who had big expectations out of her daughters. She was, you know, disciplined, status conscious, and just really expected her daughters to behave in a certain way so that they would be very eligible. She was also known to be harsh and controlling. You know, there are reports that Janet slapped Jackie as early as 5 years old. And then there are even reports that, you know, as Jackie grew up, her mom still had this, like, strong control over her and slapped her, you know, when she was even in her early 20s, when she, you know, misbehaved in a way or acted in a way that she didn't. That Janet didn't agree with. An interesting fact here about Janet versus Blackjack, I guess, you know, Janet had very rigid ideas of what women should do, how they should dress and look and be. And Jackie was just like, a little bit more of a tomboy, and she wanted to be, like, barefoot and just, you know, just a little bit less prim and proper, I think, at times. And blackjack kind of allowed her to do that, and he would, like, take her swimming and allow her to just be a little bit more carefree.
- [13:23]
Stassi Schroeder
Interesting.
- [13:24]
Chandler
And so she was kind of a daddy's girl because of that.
- [13:26]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah. It seemed like between Janet and Jackie, there's a little bit of, like, a Rose and Kate. Rose and. Excuse me, what's Rose's mom on the Titanic? Anyway, it's like the mom and daughter on the Titanic when, you know, she's. She's tightening her corset. It was a little bit of, like, be perfect in public. Our family name is the thing we have. And she was really, really interested in appearances.
- [13:53]
Chandler
Yeah. And to that point, like, everything is leading up to who you are going to marry.
- [13:57]
Stassi Schroeder
Exactly. And we all have to remember at this time, women really didn't work, especially if they had a husband and they didn't need to work if they were wealthy. Yeah. So financial dependence on a man and then a total acceptance, essentially, of his misdeeds was really normalized, because that was a lot of women's reality, sadly. And Janet really believed that she was preparing Jackie and Lee, her two daughters, for reality. Lee Radswell, fun fact many of you probably know is also Carol Radswell of Real Housewives of New York, her mother in law, so Anthony's mother. But Janet really believed that she was preparing Jackie and Lee for the world they were about to enter. And her view was that money was the only protection that her daughters could get, and that had to come through a man. Love was not enough in Janet's view.
- [14:48]
Chandler
Right. You know, so just getting into a little bit more of Janet and Blackjack's marriage, he was, you know, could be volatile. And at one point, you know, Janet and Blackjack got into it and Janet shoved him so hard that he ended up hitting his head and started to bleed. And, you know, in the book, Maureen notes that this is one of the few times that Jackie cried in front of her mom because normally Jackie refused to ever let Janet see that she had gotten to her. And yeah, just, you know, a very imperfect family behind closed doors. And they ended up divorcing when Jackie was only 10, which was kind of crazy for that time. Yeah.
- [15:28]
Stassi Schroeder
So this divorce was super embarrassing for Jackie because this just was not in a time when divorce was normalized. And I think one of the lessons she learned from her parents marriage was that powerful men will embarrass you publicly, and your job is to. Is to survive it elegantly. So after the divorce, Janet remarries and she marries a man named Hugh Auchincloss. And she actually moves up into a more rarefied part of society of wealth of access. So her new world is filled with elite schools, Newport and East Hamilton, summers, horses, books, languages and art. Jackie was beautiful and polished, but she was also extremely, incredibly inquisitive, incredibly smart. It's just very interesting to learn this about her knowing kind of what a foil JFK Jr. Was to her on. I don't know if that was something you thought about when you're reading about this, but, like, she was just so interested in the world and so sophisticated. She drew, she read constantly. She loved history. She studied at Vassar. She spent her junior year abroad in Paris. I mean, and I just. I think that it's like, it is just interesting to think about her having JFK Jr. As her son, as like the surviving heir to the Kennedy name her, you know, besides. Besides Caroline, but the kind of the successor to JFK and him being a little bit of like a fuckboy, like, of him, like, not really having a reputation for being very smart, being very smart for having George flop. I just think that it's very interesting
- [17:01]
Chandler
to consider that, like, I think that. I think the JFK junior Was sophisticated. I think that he, like, cared about all the Things that Jackie cared about.
- [17:08]
Stassi Schroeder
See, I.
- [17:09]
Chandler
But I just don't know that. Yeah, he just didn't have as much success in, like, applying those interests to, like, a successful venture.
- [17:15]
Stassi Schroeder
I think maybe an F boy is probably a little bit uncharitable of me to. To characterize him as. But it's publicly known that she pushed him to become an attorney. He didn't want to become an attorney, and she, like, facilitated him taking the bar exam for the third time with special circumstances. And she, you know, she said, you have to have, like, a serious career. You can't just fart around.
- [17:35]
Chandler
Yeah. I guess I don't see him as not smart. I don't see him as unintelligible.
- [17:41]
Stassi Schroeder
But that was, like. That was how people perceived him.
- [17:44]
Chandler
Yes, I know that's how people perceived him, but I. I don't know. I don't see him as a. As a dud intellectually.
- [17:51]
Stassi Schroeder
Right.
- [17:51]
Chandler
But I do think that he, like, struggled with ambition and struggled with, like, applying. Applying whatever ambition he had to a successful venture. Yeah.
- [17:59]
Stassi Schroeder
And people hadn't. I mean, I think that whether we believe that to be true is a different thing. But that was. That was kind of how he was perceived. Right. Was kind of as a little bit of an airhead or like, a himbo.
- [18:09]
Chandler
I just don't think you, like. The only reason why I'm pushing back against this is, like, he, like, started a magazine that was about, like, politics. Like, I don't think you do that unless you kind of like, I'm not starting a magazine about politics.
- [18:19]
Stassi Schroeder
But when he went into his pitch meetings, he apparently, according to Maureen Callahan, couldn't say what the political point of view would be for the magazine. So, like, I think there are plenty of people who start vanity projects that are more of, like, a rarefied variety that maybe don't actually have much of substance, like, behind it. And I'm not. And I don't. I'm not enough of a scholar or historian to say whether that's true about JFK, Jr. I just think it's, like, interesting to note given how just given, like, learning about Jackie's life and how interested and intellectual she was.
- [18:51]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [18:52]
Stassi Schroeder
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- [19:55]
Chandler
This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. So I've definitely had summers where I just was not feeling like myself. It's supposed to feel like the best season, but sometimes between, you know, everyone being out of school, weekend plans, and
- [20:08]
Stassi Schroeder
just trying to squeeze everything in, it's
- [20:10]
Chandler
easy to end up feeling like you're just surviving instead of thriving. That is why I've been thinking about building in self care time for myself and doing little things that actually help me feel really good instead of just getting through the days. Therapy can be such a helpful tool for that. It gives you space to figure out what you need, set better boundaries, and create a summer that feels balanced and enjoyable. BetterHelp makes it easy with over 30,000 licensed therapists and smart matching. Okay. They have an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 from over 1.7 million client reviews. You don't have to say yes to everything this summer. Find support in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off@betterhelp.com Popapologists that's better. H E L P.com Popapologists okay. So getting back to Jackie. Yeah, so yeah, she like spent her junior year abroad in Paris. They really did like level up, I believe as a, as a family after, after the divorce. And then she transferred to George Washington University. And this is really where her like journalism, where her knack for journalism really began. And she would like go around and she would take people's pictures and interview them. And she was known as, I think the inquiring camera girl, which is, which is just kind of cute. Yeah.
- [21:28]
Stassi Schroeder
So she has this job after college where she is essentially like taking photos of people and doing little write ups of them in the, in the paper. And her sister actually was kind of more of the glamazon from the beginning. So Lee Radzill. Her. Her full name is Caroline Lee Bouvier, born Caroline Lee Bouvier is truly essential to the pre JFK Jackie story. So their relationship was close, but famously extremely complicated. They were sisters, they were companions, and they were very much rivals.
- [22:03]
Chandler
Yeah, yeah, there was. There was competition there. And, you know, there. I mean, there are even rumors that. Rumor, slash kind of, you know, evidence that JFK and Lee, you know, had some type of romance or there was
- [22:18]
Stassi Schroeder
a lot of fucking around. I mean, I probably shouldn't use that, like, intensive terminology, but Lee had a dalliance, actually, like, quite an affair with Aristotle and asis, which we'll get to later. Yeah, there was just a lot of crossover. There was a lot of crossover. I mean, there is.
- [22:39]
Chandler
I think. I think I really actually believe that JFK dated Lee or at least had gone out on a date with her. And then. Yeah. And then, anyway, it ended up shaking out that, you know, Jackie was the one who ended up with him. But before jfk, though, there was another man who was serious, you know, in Jackie's life. And his name was John Huston Jr. He was a Wall street stockbroker. According to Callahan, Jackie, though, broke off the engagement after learning that his salary was $17,000 a year and that, you know, according to legend, Jackie ended the engagement by just quietly slipping the engagement ring back into his pocket and walking away. But according to, you know, to Callahan, Jackie was not one for big emotional scenes.
- [23:22]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah, yeah. So. So John Huston Jr. He thought it was this cold move. But Jackie, who hated emotional scenes, she thought it was the cleanest way to break something off. And I think that also Janet had really instilled in her, like, money is what matters. You see, she really learned that lesson with her choices in men throughout her life, maybe up until the end. Yeah. So on some level, you kind of understand why she made the decision she did.
- [23:49]
Chandler
So many of these marriages at the time were about, you know, this looks good on paper. This will give me, you know, the best shot at a stable, reliable, sustained life. But in 1952, Jackie and JFK meet at a dinner party at a friend's house, and they totally hit it off. Apparently, you know, they are, like, bantering back and forth, and they just kind of, like, had equal amounts of charm.
- [24:14]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah. And one thing that is interesting is there's actually the same story between JFK and Jackie O. As there is between JFK Jr and CBK, which is that both CBK and Jackie O play hard to get. Okay. They're not just available and super interested right from the get go. And that seems to. That seems to hook the. The Kennedy bloodline of males.
- [24:39]
Chandler
I was listening to more about this story, and I heard that, you know, Jack was really taken with her, but obviously she played very, you know, hard to get. And she actually went overseas for some journalism. And I guess when she was. When she was overseas doing this, he really realized, like, you know, she was the one that he wanted. And upon returning. Upon her return, he, like, proposed to her.
- [24:59]
Stassi Schroeder
Interesting. Yeah, well, apparently she played hard to get, but then she ended up making herself pretty indispensable to him. So she was quite unavailable at the beginning, but then she would bring him homemade lunches. As time went on, she would accompany him to dinners like, suffer through endless small talk with strangers. She even. This is what I'm saying. When intellectual. She translated 10 books from French so we could have a more nuanced understanding of Indochina. I mean, that is pretty hot. First of all, that your husband needs a more nuanced understanding of Indochina. I'm not even sure I really know.
- [25:33]
Chandler
We don't.
- [25:34]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah, we don't. Let alone that you need to translate. That you can and need and will translate books, 10 of them about Indochina from French.
- [25:45]
Chandler
That's crazy. I mean, now it's. What are the relationships now? We're just like, sending reels back and forth to each other. It's depressing. So Jackie has, you know, famously compared her and JFK's relationship to, you know, the two of them being twin icebergs, impenetrable on the surface, but with messy and interesting parts submerged quietly, breaking apart underneath.
- [26:05]
Stassi Schroeder
She's also a poet, this woman.
- [26:06]
Chandler
She absolutely is. Yeah.
- [26:08]
Stassi Schroeder
So she really felt like they were people who could uniquely understand each other. Their childhoods had been traumatic in each individual ways. Jack with his own childhood trauma. So despite the Kennedy money and mythology, his early life was lonely. It was medically terrifying, and it was emotionally starved. So as a little boy, Jack was constantly suffering from various ailments. He had measles, whooping cough, chickenpox, scarlet fever, bronchitis, appendicitis, jaundice infections, and more. At 2 years old, he got scarlet fever, which nearly killed him. And he spent a month in the hospital and months recovering in Maine, largely without his parents. Yeah, so this. This part is really interesting. So his father was worshiped for just. Or I'm sorry. His father worshiped strength and vitality. Yeah, Joe was very all about, you know, being very fit and vital. And his Mother Rose, even though she kept having babies, because this seems to be a theme in the Kennedy sphere, like, what makes a woman value valuable is her ability to procreate. So Rose kept having babies, but she also kept skipping town to Paris. She spent a lot of time on long shopping trips away from the children. And John Kennedy, at five years old, reportedly told his mother, Rose, you're a great mother to go away and leave your children all alone.
- [27:28]
Chandler
So this is another one where it's like, where do we. How do we know that he said, he said this, but it's painting a picture nonetheless.
- [27:36]
Stassi Schroeder
It certainly is. And the exact quote from Ask not is the hugs came from the help, not from Rose. Maybe I will say a little bit, you know, as we get into JFK as a husband and father, his performance was truly abysmal in many, many ways, but he didn't necessarily have like, excellent active parenting models for him.
- [28:00]
Chandler
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, one of the most tragic and heart wrenching parts of the, you know, the Kennedy lore, the Kennedy family, is what happened to Rosemary. And we're going to get into her full story, but she, you know, essentially. So this is Jack's sister Rosemary, and she disappeared from the family after she was, you know, given a lobotomy by her, by, like on her dad's orders to a doctor. And she was just sent away to a facility in, I believe, you know, England somewhere. And like, the kids were just not supposed to ask any questions. It was just like, your sister's gone. It's chilling.
- [28:43]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah. I think that there just really was in that time, I mean, respect for, I think respect for women, expectations from men, all of that has just risen exponentially when you look at the history of how people were treated and especially women were treated.
- [29:01]
Chandler
Yeah. So just getting into a couple more things about his siblings, you know, so his older brother Joe Jr. Was like supposed to be the guy, like the Kennedy guy to run for office and to, you know, to do all this. I don't know if you know this.
- [29:14]
Stassi Schroeder
No, I didn't know this.
- [29:16]
Chandler
But he dies tragically in a mid air explosion during World War II. And so it's kind of like in this, in the wake of this that like Jack John, you know, has to sort of rise to the occasion sadly. Also, you know, his sister Kick dies in a plane crash at only 28. And JFK himself almost died multiple times during, during World War II as well. Yeah.
- [29:43]
Stassi Schroeder
The Kennedy curse is. You can understand why people feel like it's a very real thing.
- [29:47]
Chandler
Yeah. And so I'M getting into a little bit more of JFK's personality, and I have a clip I want to play. Okay. So on the surface, he is breezy and charming and handsome. I mean, you. You see these videos of him, and just the smile alone is very disarming.
- [30:03]
Stassi Schroeder
The smile. I mean, Jackie Kennedy and jfk, young presidential years look like. Look like J. Crew models on their best day. Like, the best J. Crew models you could find. I mean, stunning creatures.
- [30:18]
Chandler
I'm gonna play this clip of Jackie, I believe, talking about jfk. Jack was young and love, you know, everything. He was the first girls, you know, in all the best senses of the word. Jack was the most unselfconscious person I've ever seen. He just naturally could be attractive in
- [30:45]
Stassi Schroeder
a crowd or a room.
- [30:47]
Chandler
He was unselfconscious about walking around with a towel if it fell off or something. You know, he put it on again. But it was, like, had many things in common with so many sides of you.
- [30:59]
Stassi Schroeder
Everyone found a part of him in Jack.
- [31:03]
Chandler
So as you, you know, hear from that clip, she says he was the most unselfconscious person. You know, like, he just had an air of charm and confidence that, you know, was just arresting to everyone around him, and that led him to be the political superstar that he was.
- [31:19]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah. So she was only 23 when she met him, and she was. She was swept away.
- [31:25]
Chandler
Okay.
- [31:26]
Stassi Schroeder
In his charisma. So obviously, Jack is very compelling and attractive, and other women agreed. Okay. And this became a problem very early on in their marriage.
- [31:37]
Chandler
I heard a story, and this is. I don't believe this is from the book. So, you know, take it with a grain of salt. But I heard a story that on their honeymoon, they're. They, you know, started off their honeymoon, I believe, in Mexico, and then he, like, ran into or met up with some, like, naval buddies from, like, his time in the Navy. And he was like, oh, I'm having a great time with them. You should just. You can just head on home, and I'm gonna stay here with them. And that, like, this maybe got the wheels turning. And Jackie said about, oh, maybe there's, like, somebody else here he wants to, wow, be around. You know, that's just another tale, another piece of lore. But extremely early on, she knew that he was not faithful.
- [32:17]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah. Yeah. And she was not going to be, like, the only woman in his life by a long shot.
- [32:22]
Chandler
Yes.
- [32:22]
Stassi Schroeder
And him taking, you know, aquatic trips with women would be a theme.
- [32:27]
Chandler
Yes.
- [32:27]
Stassi Schroeder
Let's just say that this episode of
- [32:29]
Chandler
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- [33:31]
Stassi Schroeder
have to tell you all. It was such a moment of personal triumph when we received zbiotics through the mail because my husband, who usually buys them, said, where do these come from? And I said, they're a sponsor of the POD now. And his eyes lit up. We have been drinking zebiotics for many, many years. I'm actually going on a trip with my sisters and I got a text from Courtney that said, who's packing the zebiotics. I kid you not. They are crucial if you like to have a few beverages, but you don't want to feel terrible the next day. So what's incredible is that Zebiotics Pre Alcohol Probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it work when you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in your gut. It is a buildup of this byproduct, not dehydration, that is to blame for rough days after drinking. Pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. Just remember to make pre alcohol your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and you will feel your best tomorrow. Between weddings, the US Open and the first real lake weekend of the year, June barely leaves a Saturday open. Don't let a rough morning after cost you Sunday drink pre alcohol to stay ahead of it and make the most of every weekend this month, remember to head to zbiotics.com pop and use code pop at checkout for 15% off. So early on in their marriage, Jackie, she suffered for depression through all of her life. But her depression became quite severe and it makes sense why she suffered from two miscarriages. So one friend reportedly said that she was kind of like, it was kind of like she walked around as if she was the lone survivor of a plane crash. That's how despondent she was. And Jack did not know how to deal with her sadness or how to be a true partner to her. And he didn't seem to be that interested in trying. So according to Maureen callahan, in late 1955 he sent her to Valley Head, a well known Massachusetts institution to seek treatment.
- [35:26]
Chandler
Yeah, I mean, she went through three rounds of electroshock therapy, which is crazy.
- [35:32]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah.
- [35:33]
Chandler
And so it just feels so barbaric. And she describes, and Maureen describes the experience as physically horrifying for Jackie. And Jackie, you know, remembered it in turn in the terms of like having her bones being shattered, which just. Yeah. Horrific. And Jack never even visited.
- [35:55]
Stassi Schroeder
No. Not only did he not visit, but he didn't go to pick her up. So he sends like one of his people to pick her up and bring her home. And then also when she gets home, he's not there and he had not left a note as well. But I guess when he did come home and he found her to be extremely distraught, something shifted in him. And she did say that that night, for those hours, he was a very like, present, supportive, loving partner.
- [36:22]
Chandler
Yeah, I, I don't think that he never had good moments. I think there were good moments sprinkled throughout their relationship. But there were, you know, for every good moment, there were countless selfish moments.
- [36:34]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah.
- [36:35]
Chandler
And so By August of 1956, this is three years into their marriage, Jackie is pregnant after, you know, these two devastating miscarriages. And, you know, she was feeling very hopeful. She was seven months along into her pregnancy. And the Kennedy family up until this point had not been very sympathetic to, you know, her struggles, her and Jack's struggles, you know, with trying to have a baby. And they blamed her miscarriages on her sensitive disposition and her smoking.
- [37:03]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah.
- [37:04]
Chandler
And so, you know, just awful. Can you imagine your in laws treating you like that as you're going through, you know, this awful experience? Yeah.
- [37:12]
Stassi Schroeder
Not only.
- [37:14]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [37:14]
Stassi Schroeder
So not only are you blamed for your miscarriages, but Then also it's like, why are you so sensitive? This is what men do, like, get over it.
- [37:23]
Chandler
And it's like your mother in law had nine children, you know. Well, yeah, yeah.
- [37:27]
Stassi Schroeder
Part of me just wonders how much of this just happens in a lot of prominent families, like, especially at this time. Yeah, especially at this time.
- [37:36]
Chandler
Also, you know, in some later accounts, according to Maureen Callahan, a darker possibility was suggested about some of the, you know, reasons for some of these miscarriages, which is that they were due to untreated sexually transmitted infections. And this is thought to have come from Jack, you know, and his infidelities. She might have had like something like asymptomatic chlamydia and that. Something along those lines.
- [37:58]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah. And if that's the truth, what an injustice for Jackie O. That she was so, you know, that she was so poorly treated. And it, not only was it not her fault, but it was actually her philandering husband's fault, if that is the case.
- [38:12]
Chandler
Right.
- [38:12]
Stassi Schroeder
So Jackie really felt like the only thing that truly mattered was whether she could have a child. She compared herself to Rose, who had nine. Her other sister in law seemed to be having baby after baby. So with this in mind, Jackie pushes herself onto the campaign trail for JFK when he is campaigning to be Vice president because she wants to be a useful Kennedy wife. And he loses his vice presidential bid. And she is absolutely devastated, not only because she knew how much she wanted him, but because of fearing kind of what would come next. She felt like he would really suffer from this setback. And instead of staying with his pregnant wife in the final weeks before the baby arrived, he decided to sail off to the Mediterranean to kind of lick his wounds with Ted Kenneth Kennedy and George, George Smathers, a man Jackie hated. And I think she really didn't think he would just be with the guys fishing, you know?
- [39:04]
Chandler
No, no, no, no. It was like, he needs to go recover his ego.
- [39:07]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah, exactly.
- [39:08]
Chandler
So he's gone and Jackie is staying at her mother and stepfather's estate in Rhode Island. It was not really where she wanted to be, but Lee was in London and, you know, Jack was gone. And so she just wanted to be close to, you know, her family. And on August 23rd of 1956, she wakes up from a nap in terrible pain and she's bleeding. She was then rushed to Newport Hospital where doctors performed an emergency C section. And her baby girl called Arabella, was stillborn.
- [39:38]
Stassi Schroeder
So this next part of the story is so shocking. So she is woken up from anesthesia around 2 in the morning. The man beside her is not her husband, but it's Bobby Kennedy. Bobby held her hand and broke the news about Arabella, and he handled the burial. And according to Callahan, Bobby told Jackie that Jack was still at sea and unreachable in the Mediterranean.
- [40:00]
Chandler
However, this was a lie.
- [40:01]
Stassi Schroeder
This was a lie. Jack was absolutely reachable. Not only was reachable, but he was reached. And he spoke to Bobby and he said, what's done is done. And he reportedly told him that the baby is lost. And so Jackie, while she's lying in the hospital bed, emotionally shattered and mourning this child that she never got to see her hold, you know, she's been dying to get pregnant. She had multiple miscarriages. Her husband stays on a vote with other women.
- [40:25]
Chandler
Yeah, he's like, you know, there's really no point in me coming home right now. It's awful to imagine that the state of mind and that Jackie was in, you know, all by herself in this unimaginable pain. And also, you know, just to give this a little bit of perspective, Jack has his own health issues. And, you know, early on in their marriage, he required a, like, constant care. And Jackie had totally been at his bedside. You know, he had Addison's disease, colitis, ulcers, infections, headaches, back problems that were so severe that he could barely walk. And, you know, when he had back surgery that nearly killed him, Jackie sat with him for hours. She spoon fed him, she helped him dress, read to him, kept him company. She was just there for him, you know, around the clock. And he couldn't even be bothered to return any of that, any. Any degree of that same care to her in this dark hour for their family.
- [41:17]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah. And so she goes through this, and something inside of her really breaks. And she decides that she is done with Jack Kennedy. She doesn't just want a divorce, she decides she wants an annulment. She wants the Catholic Church to say this marriage never happened. That's how betrayed she feels by jfk. So she feels that Jack has treated her loss, her body, her motherhood, and their baby as if they were all nothing. And she wanted the marriage to be treated in the same way. And she told people that she was not going back to him.
- [41:45]
Chandler
Yeah. One of the most interesting details that stuck with me from my very first read of this book.
- [41:51]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah.
- [41:52]
Chandler
Was what happens next, which is that Jack returns 10 days later, but according to according to, you know, Maureen Callahan, is not. Because he suddenly was like, what am I doing? I need to be with my wife. George Smathers the man that Jackie, you know, hated, essentially told JFK that if he ever wanted to be president, he had to go get himself back to his wife. And it was just like, if you want the future, you know, that you want. If you want to reach all your political dreams and aspirations, you gotta go be with your wife.
- [42:20]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah.
- [42:20]
Chandler
And that was his motivation.
- [42:21]
Stassi Schroeder
Like the America is not going to elect a divorced man.
- [42:25]
Chandler
Yes. And so when he lands in the States, he tells the reporters that Jackie had not informed him about the stillbirth because she didn't want to ruin his vacation.
- [42:33]
Stassi Schroeder
So even Jackie's mother, Janet, who had told Jackie, marry the richest, most powerful man you can find, was disgusted. Everyone in Washington knows the truth. The press still has a gentleman's agreement with jfk, and so they kind of protect his reputation. Jackie leaves the hospital, she stays with her mother, and she mourns her baby and her marriage, and she blames herself. Because women in that world really were taught to believe that if a marriage failed, they had failed. And if a pregnancy was lost, she had failed, had failed and lost that pregnancy. And if a powerful man strayed, it was also, a lot of times women felt like they had failed or they were taught to feel like, that they weren't interesting enough, not sexual enough, not compliant, maternal, elegant, quiet, submissive.
- [43:21]
Chandler
Like it was always about what they lacked.
- [43:24]
Stassi Schroeder
You couldn't, you know, you couldn't keep his interest.
- [43:26]
Chandler
Yes. Yes. And, you know, I guess her mom told Jackie, though, she said, you should divorce him while you're still. This is also kind of toxic, but while you're still young and beautiful and you could, you know, make a new life with somebody else. And she left for London to go be with Lee during this time.
- [43:44]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah. So then this is where this part really stuck out to me. So essentially, her friend and neighbor, Walter Ritter, he's a newspaper publisher, and he has a conversation with her, and he basically says, you know, okay, yeah, you can divorce. You can divorce Jack Kennedy, but you're gonna always have to live with the knowledge that you're gonna have cost America him as a president. And this is very interesting, because I guess she. I don't know. She clearly believed in him as a politician because this is something that compelled her to potentially go back.
- [44:18]
Chandler
So, yeah, the line, you know, could she live with herself if her pain cost America a president? I wrote here in my notes, girl, Yes, I know.
- [44:26]
Stassi Schroeder
I was just like, well, there'll be a different president.
- [44:28]
Chandler
Maybe this just speaks to how disillusioned we are with the politicians of Our. Of our present day, you know, of all days, in recent times, across the aisle. But it's like. I don't know. I mean. Yeah, she really did. She really must have believed in him as a leader and as someone who could bring about change, because I would be like, yeah, sorry. He sucks, right?
- [44:49]
Stassi Schroeder
Completely.
- [44:49]
Chandler
I would say.
- [44:50]
Stassi Schroeder
I don't think we want such an immoral philanderer. Also just father, who is or would be father, who is literally almost sociopathic with the way he treats his wife. But Walter sympathized to a point. He said, sure, Jack is difficult in the ways of women, but she had known that you signed up for this life. He said, weren't there moments that made up for times like this? And Jackie, you know, here's the thing about Jackie. She. There is like. She's gone through all of these tribulations, but she kind of makes a deal with the devil. Okay. And she kind of realizes, according to Marine, that sometimes there were moments that made up for it.
- [45:33]
Chandler
Yeah. I mean, you know, I kind of doubt Walter as a friend a little bit.
- [45:38]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah.
- [45:39]
Chandler
He's like, but isn't it all worth it? I just. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe it's. Maybe I'm just looking at this through too much of a 20, 26 lens. But if I'm literally getting drinks with Walter Ritt and he's saying to me, like. Like, Ben, yeah, Ben's bad in the ways of women, but aren't there a few great moments that make up for it? And who are you to deny the country their next president?
- [46:03]
Stassi Schroeder
Honestly, I mean, I'm just, like, moved by Walter's belief in Ben and his political ambition.
- [46:08]
Chandler
I guess so. I'm like, was Walter hot for jfk? I don't know.
- [46:13]
Stassi Schroeder
I think that. Here's the thing. Jackie. Jackie did understand that she did have a feeling that this was kind of the situation with jfk. And she was intoxicated by his beauty, by his charisma, by the light. His light when it showed on her and the life that he provided. Like, let's be so for real.
- [46:33]
Chandler
Agreed.
- [46:34]
Stassi Schroeder
And there was a. She kind of does make this deal with a double because she's offered a million dollars.
- [46:39]
Chandler
Well, yeah. By Joe Kennedy. I also want to say it really wasn't different time. Yeah. It was a different time for men and their indiscretions.
- [46:46]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah. And honestly, women in their possibilities. Because what does Janet say? She's like, you're so young and beautiful. You could marry someone else.
- [46:53]
Chandler
That's. That's. That's It. That's like, that's the only other ticket out is to just marry somebody else. Like either. The only way she's getting out of any, like, the only way she's having the only ticket to a life is by marrying somebody. So it's like, I don't know, maybe stick with the evil, you know? Yeah, the.
- [47:06]
Stassi Schroeder
Exactly. The devil you know is potentially better than the one you don't. And also, a bird in the hand is better than one in the bush or two in the bush and the water recedes.
- [47:15]
Chandler
You can see who's swimming naked. And also, what other one do you got for me?
- [47:22]
Stassi Schroeder
And also she gets a million birds in the hand because she gets a million dollars. This is the. This is the very believed to be true rumor. I mean, she accepts a million dollars to go back to jfk.
- [47:34]
Chandler
And it's not just that. Yeah, that, you know, she would. She got a million dollars to stay in the marriage to. To Jack, because obviously Joe Kennedy was highly, highly, you know, invested in JFK becoming the president, but that she would be paid more if she was given another STD by him.
- [47:52]
Stassi Schroeder
This woman. Here's the thing. She knows how to negotiate. That is a theme throughout this deep dive.
- [47:57]
Chandler
Bethany Frankel wishes.
- [47:59]
Stassi Schroeder
Yep. Before the Bethany clause, there was the Jackie clause.
- [48:02]
Chandler
Exactly.
- [48:02]
Stassi Schroeder
And the Jackie clauses, because there are quite a few clauses in her marriage or in her prenup to Aristotle Onassis.
- [48:09]
Chandler
Yes.
- [48:09]
Stassi Schroeder
That will come later.
- [48:11]
Chandler
Okay, so moving on to 1957. So a year.
- [48:16]
Stassi Schroeder
So how many years after.
- [48:17]
Chandler
What is this, 1956? Yeah.
- [48:18]
Stassi Schroeder
Okay.
- [48:19]
Chandler
Okay, so moving on to November of 1957, where about a year later. About a year later. About a year later, after she goes back to jfk, she gives birth to Caroline. And you know, in this case, Jack was the first person she saw when she woke up. I mean, remember this time that women were literally like, put under and then like, you know what?
- [48:39]
Stassi Schroeder
I didn't know that.
- [48:39]
Chandler
Yeah, they were like, put under. Put under to give?
- [48:42]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah, for a cesarean.
- [48:44]
Chandler
I mean, I am like, actually, I'm not entirely sure if it was always for a cesarean. I could fact check myself, but it was like, sometimes for a cesarean, of course you're put under with, like, how could you give?
- [48:54]
Stassi Schroeder
I don't know.
- [48:55]
Chandler
I just know that it was like you were always basically put under and then you woke up with the baby.
- [48:59]
Stassi Schroeder
Really?
- [48:59]
Chandler
Yeah. Yes.
- [49:00]
Stassi Schroeder
Okay, let's look this up really quickly for our listeners.
- [49:02]
Chandler
Okay, so what I could find in my. My quick research is that I. Maybe it was for Mostly cesarean sections because you can't really push, obviously if you're, you know, completely asleep. Sleep. Yeah.
- [49:11]
Stassi Schroeder
Glad I trusted women on that one to push back.
- [49:14]
Chandler
Yeah. I guess it's just crazy because the cesarean feels like way more high risk than a vaginal delivery. But yeah, you would just like literally be put to sleep so you would have no memory of the labor or delivery.
- [49:25]
Stassi Schroeder
It's just interesting how it seems like there was just no kind of spirituality or like there is. This is just a total aside, but there was no feeling of like, oh, maybe the mother and child should physically bond immediately.
- [49:42]
Chandler
Like, listen to this. There's something called the golden hour, which is when baby is put on mom for at least the first hour after birth, which helps the baby regulate blood pressure, heart rate, breathing and temperature. If the mom is, you know, out, obviously it's much more difficult. Also, you know, being anesthetized. I think I'm saying that. Right? Yeah. Comes with wrists itself, you know, like, it's not. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so when she wakes up from labor and delivery, he is there and, you know, he wheels the baby into the room and she calls it the happiest day of her life.
- [50:15]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah. This is a golden moment for Jackie and John and to her. Not only, you know, is she so happy to be a mom and to be with Caroline, her new infant, but she knows that she could carry pregnancy to term. It's a huge moment of relief for her. And they are finally, she feels a real family. And especially in the Kennedy universe, she feels like she's kind of vindicated and she has a new level of respect within the family because she has proven that she can do what they were doubting her about. Right. So three years later, Jack Kennedy, JFK finally wins his presidential bid. Okay. He becomes President of the United States. And just days after, on November 25, 1960, Jackie delivers little known figure, also known as JFK Jr.
- [51:06]
Chandler
Yes. Crazy. I didn't realize that the timing of that. I mean, can you even imagine how stressed you would be if you're literally about to give birth and your husband is also maybe about to win, being, you know, President of the United States?
- [51:16]
Stassi Schroeder
I think that that would be a lot of pressure.
- [51:18]
Chandler
I mean, the front, that is just honestly hard to imagine.
- [51:23]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah, it's really hard to imagine. And what's even more hard to imagine is her life as the first lady. Because, you know, even though she had had some good moments with jfk, she knew who he really was. And let's just say that the office of the presidency did not withhold him or stop him from indulging in. In his ways. In his ways of women.
- [51:46]
Chandler
Yeah, you know, no, it was. It was routine.
- [51:50]
Stassi Schroeder
So she knew way more than the public understood. Obviously, she knew about his infidelities, and she was just not a naive little wife. Wife who was turning a blind eye. And this is what she told Dr. Frank Finnerty, a cardiologist who became one of her confidants. She said, I know what's going on. I'm not dumb or naive like people think. And what bothered Jackie was not that she believed that Jack loved these women. In fact, she felt it was quite the opposite. So it's kind of crazy was she thought that he treated them like the help that they came when he called, laughed when expected. And we're not supposed to ask anything of him. And according to Ask Not, Jackie described his behavior as kind of a compulsion, like a hormonal compulsion that was just intrinsic to his personality and a vicious trait that he inherited from his father. And she even talked to Dr. Finnerty about Jack being very disappointing in the bedroom. So this account was actually apparently corroborated by other women. And she asked Dr. Finnerty, like, how she could improve their sex life because his bedroom skills were apparently short on romance and short period.
- [52:59]
Chandler
Yeah, I don't really have any commentary there other than that it's. It's not surprising. Brief, maybe.
- [53:07]
Stassi Schroeder
Not short, but brief.
- [53:08]
Chandler
Yeah. She also told this cardiologist, which is kind of crazy to me, that this was, like, her confidant. Like, how often are you going to the cardiologist? But anyway, love it for her. She also told Dr. Finnerty that she believed her own sister Leigh may have slept with Jack at least once. And even then, Jackie was just, you know, she looked away.
- [53:29]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah. But there was one affair that almost broke her, and this is a really interesting case. So with everyone else, she kind of felt like they were just, you know, women he had sex with and didn't care for at all and didn't care about at all. And she was unthreatened, except for when it came to Marilyn Monroe.
- [53:49]
Chandler
I mean, of course. And this because Marilyn was like the. The other icon of the day.
- [53:55]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah. And. And you can understand how she was so opposite to Jackie. She was voluptuous and, like, she was so.
- [54:03]
Chandler
What's the right word?
- [54:04]
Stassi Schroeder
Like you said.
- [54:05]
Chandler
Well, I'm. I roll my eyes because I think Marilyn Monroe was maybe like a size 6. But. But. Yes, but she's an hourglass.
- [54:12]
Stassi Schroeder
She was.
- [54:13]
Chandler
She was just very like, sexy.
- [54:15]
Stassi Schroeder
She was very sexy. And also I think that Jackie was. Was East Coast. She was all about being sophisticated, learned, intellectual, and Marilyn Monroe kind of more like doe eyed. Well, and she was a. She was part of Hollywood, you know, she was. She had no. She kind of had no heirs about her. And I think there was probably uninhibited quality to Marilyn Monroe that Jackie didn't possess and probably felt she never could.
- [54:41]
Chandler
Yes. I mean, just. Actually, it's very understandable to me why this person could put up with a lot, but couldn't put up with this.
- [54:47]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah.
- [54:47]
Chandler
I mean, imagine if either of our partners were having affairs and then like, then they were having an affair with a Kim Kardashian. I'm trying to think of, like, who's the Kylie Jenner. Kylie Jenner.
- [54:58]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah.
- [54:58]
Chandler
That would be very, very hard for both of us.
- [55:01]
Stassi Schroeder
This would be very troubling for me as well. Yes. And. And also the other thing I have to say is, like, you have to think about how she forbid or she really did not like Daryl Hannah. So she really looked down on, like, actresses.
- [55:12]
Chandler
Oh, Jack. Yes, Jack.
- [55:13]
Stassi Schroeder
Yo did she looked down. She really looked down on, like, glamazon, flashy actress types. But I think she was low key, threatened by them. And she was very threatened by Marilyn Monroe as Chandler and I would be, as we are, very much threatened by Kylie Jenner.
- [55:26]
Chandler
Yes.
- [55:27]
Stassi Schroeder
And so she did exactly what I would have done in the situation, but she put a kibosh on it and she said, if you don't stop with Marilyn Monroe, I will literally divorce you and it will cost you your reelection. Yeah. And apparently he comes correct and he immediately ends the relationship. But we all have to imagine what it was would be like to be Jackie Kennedy. This is the one woman that. It pisses you off. And she is publicly in that slinky, rhinestone nude dress. Honestly, it's a look I would really love. She is, you know, pops out of a cake and performs Happy birthday, Mr. President, in front of the nation. Apparently, Jackie on purpose was not there in the room that night because she wanted to make a statement that she did not condone what was happening.
- [56:16]
Chandler
Right. And she wasn't gonna act like a fool. I think, you know, Jackie and I share this trait. I mean, amongst many traits we share. But yeah, I think one of my least favorite feelings is feeling stupid or feeling like, you know, people think that I am not in on the joke.
- [56:31]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah.
- [56:31]
Chandler
You know what I'm saying? Like, I think that would be. I think that was very. I Think that was at the top of, like, Jackie's, like, motivation. Yeah.
- [56:39]
Stassi Schroeder
And I think if Kylie Jenner ever sings Happy Birthday to Ben, you. I'm not.
- [56:43]
Chandler
I'm. I'm gonna know about it. I'm gonna know. I'm not a fucking fool.
- [56:46]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah. You're not gonna be in attendance?
- [56:48]
Chandler
No.
- [56:49]
Stassi Schroeder
Okay, so then. Tone shift. Everyone comes. Patrick. So this is a really sad, sad part of Jackie's history.
- [56:57]
Chandler
Yeah. So this is three years after getting elected. I think also it's just important to recognize, like, you know, it's not, it's not like there's. He's had two terms in the, in the office. This is just three years after getting elected.
- [57:10]
Stassi Schroeder
Right. She gives birth to their child, Patrick, their son Patrick. And he was premature and struggled to breathe. And this is just a really, really tragic story. So apparently Jack was present for her as a partner and husband during the situation. And according to Maureen Callahan, he made sure that Jackie saw the baby and held his hand before Patrick was moved to another hospital. And Jack stayed by the baby's side. And after Patrick died two days later, Jack stayed by Jackie's side.
- [57:43]
Chandler
Yeah. I think that this terribly sad moment also marks a time when Jackie and Jack were quite close and that their marriage was, you know, like they were relying on each other and that, like, they were sort of like beginning a new chapter. Yeah.
- [57:58]
Stassi Schroeder
And they, they, they grieve together, Patrick's death as parents. And it kind of makes what happens just three months later even more devastating because there were obviously a lot of lows in their marriage, but they were apparently really close at the time of his assassination.
- [58:18]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [58:18]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah.
- [58:19]
Chandler
Okay, everyone. Has anyone else also entered their summer psychosis? I keep scrolling through my calendar and every weekend has a birthday party, a trip, a wedding, a beach day, or some random long weekend getaway. And I'm like, okay, but what am I actually going to wear to all of these functions?
- [58:39]
Stassi Schroeder
Same. I opened my closet and it's giving last year's summer leftovers. Nothing feels fun or fresh.
- [58:45]
Chandler
Exactly. This is why I've been completely obsessed with Macy's tropical fantasy trend lately. It is this dreamy, ocean inspired vibe with swirling prints, sheer fabrics, and the prettiest sorbet bright colors. It makes you feel like you are living in your own little beach fantasy. Even when you're just going, you know, to a backyard barbecue.
- [59:03]
Stassi Schroeder
Yes. Macy's tropical fantasy selection brings that golden hour radiant energy into real life. It feels really special and catches the light beautifully. You can easily wear it to a summer dinner and feel comfortable.
- [59:15]
Chandler
Okay, but can we talk about the shoes? Have you seen the Steve Madden strappy sculpted wedges? Steve Madden is killing it right now. They are so chic and they give you that vacation strut even on regular sidewalks. Or the Carolina Herrera La Bamba sandals that would be perfect for a boat day.
- [59:31]
Stassi Schroeder
Do not get me started on the Carolina Herrera La Bamba fragrance. It is this vibrant, sunny blend of dragon fruit, red peony and solar vanilla. It smells like golden hour on the beach in a bottle. They even have an 80 milliliter travel size that fits perfectly in your carry on, which is ideal for summer trips.
- [59:50]
Chandler
It lets you capture that radiant summer feeling right at home. No plane ticket required. You can also throw on the Sienna printed mini dress or that gorgeous Donna Karan asymmetrical yellow set and suddenly you feel like you're living in your own tropical fantasy. Even if you're just running around, you know, going to Target or a summer work event.
- [60:08]
Stassi Schroeder
I love how Macyus has made the whole trend feel accessible and everyday. The soft flowy dresses, the translucent jelly footwear, the little metallic accents sense everything feels light, radiant and actually comfortable. It is this kind of collection that makes you excited to get dressed instead of stressed about what to wear.
- [60:26]
Chandler
They are just pretty breezy pieces that help you capture the dreamy ocean inspired magic no matter where you are this summer. Whether you're planning a Euro summer or just want to feel like the main character in your own summer story, Macy's has pieces that help you bring that vibe into real life.
- [60:40]
Stassi Schroeder
And the best part is you do not have to overthink it. You can mix and match these items with things you already own and instantly feel more put together and summery. The iridescence, the aquamarine tones, the sheer fabrics, it all just works so well for summer.
- [60:54]
Chandler
I've been picturing myself wearing the sequin midi to a friend's wedding and the yellow asymmetric set to one of our casual dinners. Both of them strike the perfect balance between elevated and relaxed.
- [61:04]
Stassi Schroeder
This is the kind of trend that makes you want to say yes to every invitation because you finally have something cute to wear.
- [61:09]
Chandler
So if you've been looking for that perfect summer wardrobe that feels fun, fresh and breathable, this is your sign.
- [61:15]
Stassi Schroeder
Head to Macy's and explore the tropical fantasy collection. Whether you are headed to a wedding, a beach day, a cookout, or just want to feel cute on a random Tuesday, they have everything you need to live out that tropical fantasy in your everyday life.
- [61:27]
Chandler
Your summer outfits will thank you now@macy's.com
- [61:30]
Stassi Schroeder
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- [62:21]
Chandler
So after JFK is shot on November 22, 1963, Jackie is determined to stay with him. And I think this is, this is a part of history that we all know about, you know, that she didn't want to change her clothes. Yeah.
- [62:35]
Stassi Schroeder
She wanted to be in the blood stained suit when, you know, she stood next to Lyndon as he was sworn in.
- [62:42]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [62:42]
Stassi Schroeder
She, they, apparently they brought out a white dress for her to change into on the, on the plane and she said absolutely not.
- [62:48]
Chandler
Yeah, yeah, yeah. When people tried to keep her out of the room, you know, when he was in the hospital, she just insisted on staying with him. And you know, even though the doctors worked on him for 30 minutes, the wound was catastrophic. She demanded that the priest be called to give Jack his last rights. And after he was pronounced dead, Jackie demanded a moment with her husband. And so this is according to Maureen Callahan's account in Ask not when Jackie thought they were alone. She kissed his entire naked body. Despite all of the infidelities and sharing her husband with the world, she was the last one to have a private intimate moment with Jack Kennedy.
- [63:25]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah.
- [63:26]
Chandler
I think what is discussed in the book is that she kissed every part of him. Yeah.
- [63:30]
Stassi Schroeder
And so Hal, Maureen would have known about this. This is a little dubious to me.
- [63:35]
Chandler
Yeah, I don't, you know, it's interesting that she says when Jackie thought they were alone, I, I also would assume that there are people who were peeking or, I don't know, that there are just like people who were hospital staff or whatever who maybe, you know, were morbidly curious, I don't know, like who knows?
- [63:52]
Stassi Schroeder
But apparently. So it was one thing she did. One thing that she did tell. I think it was a journalist. Yeah. Years later, years later, she says that they had actually had sex the night before, and she. She wanted the world to know that they were. That it was a real marriage. It wasn't just a transactional relationship. It wasn't just a relationship for the sake of his political life.
- [64:13]
Chandler
Yeah. And that they were connected at times
- [64:15]
Stassi Schroeder
and at the time of his death. Yeah. So this brings us to the idea of Camelot. So Camelot was a play that was very. It was a musical that was very popular at the time. And it tells the story. A charismatic young king who tries to build an idealistic kingdom defined by hope, intelligence, and progress, only for it to ultimately collapse through betrayal and tragedy. And so many Americans come to see JFK as the. As essentially their Camelot, a youthful, glamorous leader whose presidency symbolized optimism and possibility before being abruptly cut short by assassination. And this was actually Jackie's brainchild. So she is giving an interview a week after his assassination. She sits down with journalists Theodore H. White at the Kennedy compound in Hyannis Port. And in that interview, she says that what kept playing in her mind was not Shakespeare or some grand classical reference, but it was a lyric from the very popular musical Camelot. That lyric that kept playing in her mind was don't let it be forgot that once there was a spot for one brief shining moment that was known as Camelot. And she kind of is. She's extreme. Not kind of. She's extremely influential in the myth making of JFK as Camelot, as this brief shining moment.
- [65:29]
Chandler
What could have been.
- [65:30]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah. For the United States.
- [65:31]
Chandler
You know, we remember the moment where she's playing records in the. In Love Story. And, you know, I believe she's playing records from that musical. And apparently this was a musical I think, that JFK loved. Yeah.
- [65:45]
Stassi Schroeder
Okay.
- [65:46]
Chandler
So, you know, moving on to Jackie.
- [65:49]
Stassi Schroeder
Well, after Camelot, one thing also, that before we move on the Camelot of it all, if I can use that phrase one more time, it really. It kind of gives everyone. It focuses the public's attention on all of the good parts about John Kennedy and kind of turns their attention away from the bad parts. And that's something that she actually kind of reckons with later because she feels like she put him up on this pedestal for everyone, but she never was allowed to, like, publicly live in her truth about the betrayals, about how he treated her. Right. And so she. You know, I think she probably felt like a lot of People do, which is they only want to show. They want to show the good, good parts of their life. They want to be seen as a certain, in a certain way. But then that, that. That can also come at the expense of living your most authentic truth.
- [66:43]
Chandler
Right, right.
- [66:44]
Stassi Schroeder
And.
- [66:44]
Chandler
And you know, she's forever defined by this moment and this man. And you know, like, it kind of. It sort of halts her identity and who she can become in the public's eyes.
- [66:53]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah, exactly.
- [66:56]
Chandler
So moving on to after, you know, the White House, I guess. She moved out of the White House, like two weeks later. I guess that makes sense because, you know, there was a new president. But, you know, five years after the assassination, she makes the shocking announcement that she is marrying the Greek shipping magnate Aristotle Onassis. And the entire nation just basically like, slut shames her. And they're like, you know, Jackie, how could you? And then another headline was, Jackie weds a blank check. And that or JFK dies a second time.
- [67:29]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah. A lot of people, she was essentially just cast as a gold digger.
- [67:32]
Chandler
Yes.
- [67:33]
Stassi Schroeder
Like, as a gold digging who sold herself to the highest bidder. That is how. And you have to consider this also, like, that's how she's treated in the media. Meanwhile, the media has completely ignored her husband's philandering, went unreported.
- [67:46]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [67:48]
Stassi Schroeder
So I think that that's important to note the contrast in how they were portrayed. There is some messiness when it comes to Aristotle and asis. So first, just like, you know, it was believed that Lee and Jack Kennedy or slash jfk. I have to keep reminding everyone, Jack and JFK are sorry, but just as Jack and Lee apparently had a dalliance at one point, Lee very much had a full thing with Aristotle Onassis or Arianassis, as he was called, even when she was married. So she's married to Prince Radziwill, Anthony's father.
- [68:25]
Chandler
Yes.
- [68:26]
Stassi Schroeder
And she, however, though kind of had a full relationship with Aristotle and Assis and hoped that they might. That that relationship might become something permanent.
- [68:36]
Chandler
He had a yacht.
- [68:37]
Stassi Schroeder
He certainly did. And I guess the. I don't know, the, the royalty. Was it Polish royalty, I believe Greek shipping magnet. No, no. Radzwill.
- [68:47]
Chandler
Oh, yeah. I don't know.
- [68:48]
Stassi Schroeder
I think it was Polish royalty. Anyway. I don't know if they have. I don't know if the Polish royals have a yacht. Yeah. But anyway, Lee. Lee really was into to Ari, but Ari was into Jackie. And Ari really wanted Jackie. And I think it was like, you
- [69:04]
Chandler
know, she was obviously this icon and this, like, literally one of the most famous women in the world. And he wanted her as an exception.
- [69:10]
Stassi Schroeder
He, you know. Exactly. He literally treats her so much like a possession. But she. She has known him for a long time, and he offers her essentially what almost no other man could, which was real serious economic protection and an escape from kind of the Kennedy dynasty. He offers her full security. She can live a life of privacy, of complete financial security. And I think that, like, you know, Aristotle and Assis did not have the same, I will say, conventional attractiveness as John. As John Kennedy slash JFK slash Jack Kennedy. However, I think there's always something super hot about a guy who's just so fucking into you. And I think that I can understand a little bit of, like, the lure of Aristotle Onassis, because I bet he was just like, so dying and so hot for her. And that was probably to be desired in that way after she had been with a man who was such a flander.
- [70:12]
Chandler
Yeah, of course.
- [70:13]
Stassi Schroeder
Was probably, like, really compelling for her.
- [70:15]
Chandler
Yeah. Who came with all these, you know, other perks and.
- [70:18]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah.
- [70:18]
Chandler
And I think. I mean, the biggest thing for me is getting away from the Kennedy name and are, like, just the snares of the Kennedy family and what. Everything that came with. Yeah.
- [70:27]
Stassi Schroeder
I mean, she kind of. She entered a totally different life. And this is, you know, so she. She obviously knows that he really wants her, and she goes into negotiation mode, essentially.
- [70:35]
Chandler
So in these negotiations, she receives $3 million in the marriage, $1 million for each of her children, a 600,000 per year travel budget, protections in the event of divorce or Ari's death, separate bedrooms. Yeah. And even stipulations. And even stipulations around the sexual expectations of the marriage.
- [70:54]
Stassi Schroeder
I. I gotta love a girl who wants to get it all in writing. You know, apparently she asked for 20 million. That was where she, you know, that was the number that she started with, but that's what she kind of settled for. And also consider this is in, like, the late 60s or the early 60s. Excuse me. This $3 million back, you know, adjusted for inflation. This is a lot. A ton of money. $600,000 to travel a year in 1960.
- [71:21]
Chandler
Crazy.
- [71:22]
Stassi Schroeder
Wow. I'm jelly.
- [71:24]
Chandler
So they married on his private island, Scorpios, and Jackie Kennedy becomes Jackie Onassis. But, you know, basically immediately, the cracks in this union.
- [71:34]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah. Start to show. He quickly. The novelty of his new toy, of his latest purchase starts to, like, lose its luster. And he begins a dalliance with Maria Caius. The very famous opera singer.
- [71:48]
Chandler
Her. I mean, arguably even worse, he sells her out to the press. He lets the press know where she's going to be sunbathing. So he has a.
- [71:58]
Stassi Schroeder
He has an exhibitionist streak, Aristotle Onassis, and he honestly is a little bit of a.
- [72:02]
Chandler
Of a.
- [72:03]
Stassi Schroeder
Of a freak. I'll be. I'll be so candid.
- [72:06]
Chandler
How do you know?
- [72:07]
Stassi Schroeder
Because in Maureen's book, she describes that he had bar stools on the yacht that were made out of whale scrotum. And also he would leave the door ajar while having sex with Jackie because he wanted, like, people to see people. Like, people walking through the yacht to see, like, he would try to have sex with her in kind of, like, public environments as much as possible. And, yeah, he would tip off. I guess he tipped off photographers when she'd be sunbathing, or I think she
- [72:32]
Chandler
was even exercising topless or something like that. Now, that is something Jackie and I do not share. That's the one thing we don't share.
- [72:40]
Stassi Schroeder
So, yeah, he. He really wants to show off. Off his new trophy wife.
- [72:43]
Chandler
Yeah. Yeah. So in 1971, Jackie begins seeing psychiatrist Dr. Marianne Chris. And this is like, kind of a big moment because this is where she kind of puts real language around what has happened in her life. And, like, you know the trauma she's diagnosed with ptsd.
- [73:02]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah. From the assassination.
- [73:04]
Chandler
Yes, yes. And, you know, I think to understand that, and I think she begins to understand that her trauma wasn't just actually about the assassination, but it was also about, like, the Camelot. Yeah, the Camelot and her marriage before that.
- [73:16]
Stassi Schroeder
So a lot of her PTSD was about essentially, the. The kind of myth and legend she helped create. And then the cognitive dissonance she felt when she was always framed in the context of that, which she did not feel like was completely grounded in her experience in truth.
- [73:31]
Chandler
Well, I think, too, you know, obviously, the assassination happens and you're in this, like, haze of, like. Like, just, like this person is gone, and you kind of. And it's on a public. You know, it's on a huge scale. It's in. In the public eye. And you. You don't want to, like, do their. You're not ready to, like, be so clear and be so open about how they. They weren't a perfect person. Obviously, everyone.
- [73:55]
Stassi Schroeder
I mean, we'll. Funerals are where we talk about the positives.
- [73:58]
Chandler
Exactly. So I just think that it is. It does make sense just from a human. Just from a natural human perspective that then, like, you know, know Years and years later, you're like, oh, my gosh. This actually was, like, horrific a lot of the time. And this is like, this was my life.
- [74:12]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah. And, you know, when she goes on to obviously marry Aristotle, and it. It. Can the horrors kind of continue. Like, in spite of all of the wealth and the glamour, he is physically abusive. There's an account of him slapping her across the face. He's also kind of a dick to her.
- [74:31]
Chandler
He's terrible to her.
- [74:32]
Stassi Schroeder
So. So, you know, as the marriage continues, I guess there's this one moment where they. There was another couple that came aboard the yacht, and they, like, were, you know, traveling with them. And there's a moment where Jackie, I guess, was just kind of undone. Right. She's in this, like, loose cotton nightgown. She has, like, a scarf that's, like, awkwardly draped around her head or whatever. And she just is not like, the perfect, you know, vision. She's not the Jackie Kennedy we would all imagine, all prim and proper in her perfect sets, you know, and with her pillbox hat. And he says to her in front of them, like, how could, like, look at yourself. Like, how can you be seen like this, essentially? And I guess she fired back and said, don't I look incredible? Or something to that effect. But she was humiliated in the moment.
- [75:17]
Chandler
Yeah. Just.
- [75:19]
Stassi Schroeder
It's so.
- [75:21]
Chandler
I don't know. It's just. It's. It's devastating the way that. Like, the way that she had to be in these marriages, you know, in order to protect herself.
- [75:31]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah. And something I kind of considering was, you know, she was such a smart person, so not just intellectual, but also just incredibly, like, aesthetically stylish and beautiful and had such a. Like, a incredible taste and rarefied sense of beauty. She just would have been so successful in 2026.
- [75:52]
Chandler
Right, right.
- [75:53]
Stassi Schroeder
You know, and she would have never needed a man. And so it just. It's such a grave. It was just such a grave injustice.
- [75:59]
Chandler
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I think that we should get into kind of what ends up happening.
- [76:05]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah. So it's actually really lovely, the end, how her life continues to play out once she. So she doesn't divorce Aristotle Onassis. He ends up passing away, even though their marriage was very much on the road to a divorce. But he ends up passing away, and she kind of gets to work. So this is very cool. So she has all the homes, the money, the security, and the access, but she actually just wanted to, like, be a woman in the world having influence in a more meaningful way.
- [76:34]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [76:35]
Stassi Schroeder
And she starts, like, working as a writer and as a journalist. Yeah.
- [76:41]
Chandler
I love this story that she approaches William Shawn, the editor of the New Yorker, about writing a piece, and her pitch was accepted, but there was one very, you know, telling caveat and that she didn't want it to run with the byline. So she didn't want to. Wanted to. Want people to know that it was by her.
- [76:53]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah. She just. She actually wanted to contribute. She wanted.
- [76:57]
Chandler
Can you imagine that?
- [76:59]
Stassi Schroeder
I know, but it's. I think it just goes to show, like, a part of her that was starved for so long.
- [77:04]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [77:05]
Stassi Schroeder
And she didn't want. Yeah. She didn't want her work to be. Or I guess her name to eclipse the actual work she was going to try to contribute to the world.
- [77:15]
Chandler
So, you know, then she goes on to, I guess, save Grand Central Terminal because it was going to be demolished, you know, and replaced with a massive office tower. But she, like, you know, campaigns to save it. And I thought that was really cool.
- [77:27]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah. Apparently, the New York Times put on the COVID Put her on the COVID and said, jackie Onassis will save us. Europe has its cathedrals. We have Grand Central. So one note on her marriage to Aristotle Onassis. This is what she had to say about it. She said, aristotle Onassis rescued me at a moment when my life was engulfed in shadows. He meant a lot to me. He brought me into a world. World where one can find happiness and love. So I. You know, it's clear that, like, she was mistreated by both JFK and Ari Onassis. But her. She contained a lot of complex feelings towards both of them, and not all of them negative.
- [78:07]
Chandler
Right.
- [78:07]
Stassi Schroeder
So after Ari's death, she moves full time into editorial work. She begins at Viking as an acquisitions editor, learning to shape books from the inside. And later she moves to Doubleday as an associate editor. So she fully, like, gets a job. And she obviously doesn't need to financially, but I just think this is very cool. So by the time she's around 50, she is in a new prime. She is building her dream home on Martha's Vineyard. She's raising Caroline and John, and she's earned the respect of her peers in publishing. And she fell in love again with a man named Maurice Templesman, a man she had known since her years with Jack.
- [78:47]
Chandler
I love that, you know, she has, like, this new chapter and real love at the end of her life.
- [78:52]
Stassi Schroeder
We're gonna gloss over Maryse's circumstances because apparently Jackie had no desire to get married again. And that worked for him because he was already married, so. Oh, gosh.
- [79:00]
Chandler
And we are just gonna leave it at that. And we love that there was love.
- [79:03]
Stassi Schroeder
We do.
- [79:04]
Chandler
We love that there was love.
- [79:07]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah, we loved that there was love. I was. Good, good. Say more.
- [79:10]
Chandler
That makes so much more sense because I was like, I really never heard about this guy.
- [79:14]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah.
- [79:15]
Chandler
Wow. Okay, so, yeah, he was very devoted to her while also being married.
- [79:21]
Stassi Schroeder
Yes. He was apparently obsessed with her. So.
- [79:24]
Chandler
Okay. Lots here, lots here, lots here. Yeah.
- [79:28]
Stassi Schroeder
So. Jackie Kennedy Onassis died of non Hodgkin's lymphoma, a cancer of blood and the lymphatic system, on May 19, 1990. 94. So crazy. That was a year before you were born and I was 4 years old. It's actually kind of wild to think that we were, like, alive at the same time. I feel so young anyway. What? Why are you rolling your eyes?
- [79:47]
Chandler
You'd be so young if you were alive at the same.
- [79:49]
Stassi Schroeder
Like, I thought I was alive at the same time as Jackie Kennedy. She seems like a figure of history books. Not from my.
- [79:54]
Chandler
Why would that make you young, though? I think that would make you old.
- [79:56]
Stassi Schroeder
No, I don't. Quite surprising.
- [79:58]
Chandler
Oh, got it.
- [79:59]
Stassi Schroeder
That we had overlap, but you had none. Flex. It's so. So, yeah. She, she. I mean, I like how I made this woman, this icon of America.
- [80:09]
Chandler
Literally. Like, you had one sentence to read.
- [80:11]
Stassi Schroeder
Innovated about myself and my own vanity.
- [80:13]
Chandler
Yeah.
- [80:13]
Stassi Schroeder
It's really a talent having an illness. She was 64 years old, so she had been diagnosed in December 1993, a year earlier, and initially underwent chemotherapy, but it spread aggressively and quickly. So after doctors determined that there were no meaningful treatments left. Left, she decided to just return home to her Manhattan apartment on Fifth Avenue. And after a lifetime of being moved, watched, handled, managed, photographed, protected, betrayed, mythologized and misunderstood, Jackie chose just where she wanted to be. At home. She died peacefully, surrounded by her family, her friends, her books and the people and things she loved.
- [80:49]
Chandler
I think we should. Well, I think we should play JFK junior Reading that.
- [80:53]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah. So I'll find it. After she passes, JFK delivers a brief speech on the steps of her apartment, which Sharon will play a clip of my mother passed on. She was surrounded by her friends and
- [81:07]
Chandler
her family and her books and the people and the things that she loved.
- [81:13]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah. There's something really lovely, I think, about just the evolution of Jackie Kennedy Onassis and how she really did, at the end of her life, fully come into her own. She was self actualized. She really contributed intellectually to the world. She wasn't just, you know, the president's wife, the first lady, or a shipping magnate's wife or style icon even.
- [81:36]
Chandler
Yeah. She really was living on her own terms, you know, the exact way that she wanted to.
- [81:40]
Stassi Schroeder
Yeah. So she had become, you could say, the author of her own life. And it's a really, I think, inspiring story, especially just about also like coming into your prime later in your life as a woman, which is always something that I think is just so inspiring to me. So, everyone, we are going to be diving next in part two on Friday into Carolyn Bessette, little known figure. We've heard a lot about Carolyn, always in context to JFK Jr. Yeah, right. It's always about her being married to kind of America's prince. And we're going to learn more about Carolyn Passette Kennedy and who she really was and focus on JFK Jr. S impact on her life, because that is obviously the theme of the story. It's how Kennedy men affected women. But I think it's important for more of a deeper exploration into cbk.
- [82:32]
Chandler
I agree, I agree. And I cannot wait to be back with you again.
- [82:35]
Stassi Schroeder
I cannot wait as well. And with that, we'll be with you on Friday. Bye.
- [82:39]
Chandler
Bye.
- [82:40]
Stassi Schroeder
Hi, I'm Stassi Schroeder. On my podcast, I share candid updates from my personal life, chat with some
- [82:47]
Chandler
of my best friends about what's going
- [82:48]
Stassi Schroeder
on in our lives, give commentary on the latest pop culture headlines, and sometimes deep dive into random topics.
- [82:55]
Chandler
I'm obsessed with, like, human design.
- [82:58]
Stassi Schroeder
It's a bit all over the place,
- [82:59]
Chandler
but that's how I like it.
- [83:01]
Stassi Schroeder
And you will, too.
- [83:03]
Chandler
Listen to my podcast dossi, wherever you get your podcasts. At first, I didn't think it was real.
- [83:09]
Stassi Schroeder
I woke up to this blinding light
- [83:11]
Chandler
and I was trapped, transported to another place.
- [83:14]
Stassi Schroeder
Pluto tv. Then I heard a voice. Come with me if you want to live. There were thousands of movies and shows,
- [83:21]
Chandler
and they were all free.
- [83:22]
Stassi Schroeder
Truth isn't. It's just so beautiful.
- [83:25]
Chandler
On Pluto TV, free streaming of Terminator 2, Fringe, Arrow, the 100 and the X Files may cause excitement, loss of sleep and sudden belief in extraterrestrials? No credit cards or alien encounters necessary. Pluto TV Stream now. Pay Never. Is your dad the kind of guy who lingers at the jewelry counter, talks about his next dream peep piece, and still treasures that one watch he got years ago? Come on, I know you know the type. Your dad has his routines, his favorite things, and buying him another gadget just feels completely pointless. This Father's Day, Macy's has some really good options for the watch collector in your life. Macy's has the striking Seiko Men's Automatic Presage stainless steel bracelet watch. It has that classic elegant look with a beautiful dial. There is also the Belova Classic Sutton automatic in silver tone and the Casio vintage gold tone that brings a cool retro feel feel. All of them feel very special without being too much. Whether he is into modern minimal vintage vibes or something automatic that shows real craftsmanship, Macy's has thoughtfully curated pieces that actually feel tailored to your dad. So if you are hunting for the perfect Father's Day gift, head over to Macy's online gift guide@macy's.com giftguide for even more ideas. You will find something that will make him actually light up.
- [84:37]
Stassi Schroeder
You know that moment when summer finally hits and suddenly everything feels a little more magical. I have been completely swept up in Macy's trop fantasy trend lately. It is all swirling prints, sheer fabrics and those pastel spring colors that make you feel cute and effortless even if you are just running around the city. Think dreamy sequin midi dresses that catch the light, strappy sculpted wedges with the perfect pop of shine and those soft flowy pieces that feel like a vacation in clothing form. The soft flowy dresses, the translucent jelly footwear, the little metallic accents, everything feels light, radiant and actually comfortable. Macy's has even curated the perfect finishing touch, Carolina Herrera's laboma fragrance. It's this vibrant, sunny blend of dragon fruit, red peony and solar vanilla that is the perfect beachy scent. If you are craving that radiant tropical fantasy energy this summer, Macy's has made it so easy to bring it into your everyday wardrobe. Head to Macy's and explore the tropical Fantasy collection. Your summer wardrobe will thank you.