380: Lindsay Clancy Murder Trial Deep Dive - Postpartum Psychosis or Premeditated Murder?

Summary

Pop Apologists – Episode 380

Lindsay Clancy Murder Trial Deep Dive: Postpartum Psychosis or Premeditated Murder?

Podcast Hosts: Lauren and Chandler (The Pop Apologists)
Release Date: August 12, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this intense, emotionally charged episode, sisters Lauren and Chandler take a comprehensive look at the Lindsay Clancy case—a murder trial that has seized public attention. They explore the chilling events surrounding the deaths of Lindsay’s three children, the debate over whether she was suffering from postpartum psychosis or acted with premeditation, and the broader implications for how society recognizes and treats perinatal mental health crises. The sisters break down court testimony, psychiatric evaluations, public reactions, and ongoing internet theories, all while reflecting on the inadequacies of the mental health system and the complexities of postpartum mental illness.

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Key Episode Segments & Timestamps

1. Setting the Scene: The Crime, the Clancys, and Content Warning – [02:17 – 09:37]
2. Lindsay Clancy: Family Background and Decline – [09:37 – 15:47]
3. Medication, Psychiatry, and Systemic Failures – [15:47 – 22:49]
4. In the Lead-up: Lindsay’s Mental Health Crisis – [23:30 – 26:57]
5. Day of the Crime & Immediate Aftermath – [27:34 – 35:45]
6. Prosecution vs. Defense: Trial Testimony and Legal Strategy – [38:03 – 59:21]
7. Psychiatric Complexity & Insanity Defense in Massachusetts – [59:21 – 63:44]
8. Public Reaction, Social Media, and Theories about Patrick Clancy – [64:45 – 73:24]
9. Hosts’ Reflections, Listeners’ Input, and Conversation Wrap-Up – [73:33 – 75:56]

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Setting the Scene: The Crime, the Clancys, and Content Warning

[02:17 – 09:37]

• Lauren provides a graphic crime summary: On January 24, 2023, Duxbury, MA, Lindsay Clancy, a 32-year-old nurse, strangled her three young children with exercise bands, attempted suicide, and survived but was left permanently paralyzed.
• Chandler describes Patrick Clancy’s (the husband) return to a “very quiet, unnaturally quiet” house:

  “If you have three young kids…generally you’re gonna have a pretty loud household. And so he knows something’s wrong.” (03:29)

• The couple’s three children: Cora (5), Dawson (3), and Callan (7 months) are tragically killed; Callan was alive but critical initially.
• Content warning: Moms, mental illness, suicide; listener discretion advised.

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Lindsay Clancy: Family Background and Decline

[09:37 – 15:47]

• Lindsay, a respected labor and delivery nurse, was described as attentive, hardworking, and “devoted to her patients.” Her naming her oldest daughter after the first baby she delivered hauntingly illustrates her dedication.
• The Clancys’ “perfect” family image is disintegrated by Lindsay’s increasing instability after Callan’s birth (May 2022).
• They briefly employed a nanny, then decided to care for their children themselves—a decision considered significant.
• Chandler on Lindsay’s maternal joy:

  “She finds a great deal of meaning in her profession to name her first child after that child…this was not an unfeeling, cold person.” (10:13)

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Medication, Psychiatry, and Systemic Failures

[15:47 – 22:49]

• Lindsay started psychiatric treatment in September 2022 for escalating anxiety (seeing perinatal specialist Dr. Jennifer Tufts).
• She cycled through Zoloft, Prozac, Trazodone, Ambien, Remeron, Klonopin, Seroquel—each with varying effects, often worsening symptoms and insomnia.
• Multiple providers were involved, sometimes with limited communication between them.
• Lauren gives personal perspective on psychiatric medication timelines:

  “It’s not like Advil, where you’ll know if it’s working in an hour… you’re gonna have to wait to see if it’s working over several weeks. And during the several weeks, you’re gonna have to most likely keep enduring whatever struggle you’re going through.” (15:02)

• Chandler highlights the excruciating nature of psychiatric med trials, the hazards of lack of sleep, and that Lindsay was not ‘doctor shopping’ but rather transferred between doctors due to referrals.

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In the Lead-up: Lindsay’s Mental Health Crisis

[23:30 – 26:57]

• December 2022: Lindsay reports suicidal ideation, contacts crisis hotlines, admits thoughts of self-harm and harming children to her husband Patrick (but not to doctors).
• Voluntarily admits herself to a specialized hospital; is ultimately diagnosed with “major depressive disorder without psychotic features” and discharged after 5 days, reportedly improved—though the doctor admits she’d never before seen postpartum psychosis (a defense point).
• Lauren on disjointed medical oversight:

  “They were not talking to each other to kind of, like, put all the puzzle pieces together.” (22:41)

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Day of the Crime & Immediate Aftermath

[27:34 – 35:45]

• Day appears outwardly normal: Lindsay takes Cora to a doctor, builds a snowman, sends cheerful photos to family.
• Patrick leaves for takeout (25 min window); prosecutors argue Lindsay created this opportunity.
• Discovery of the children, harrowing 911 call (jury visibly shaken, Patrick unable to stay in courtroom for its playing).
• Google search for CVS drive time is interpreted as a sign of planning—though the hosts note how ordinary such searches can be.
• At hospital, Lindsay (on a ventilator, paralyzed) writes she’s “horrified by what happened,” asks for an attorney, but notably does not ask about her children.

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Prosecution vs. Defense: Trial Testimony and Legal Strategy

[38:03 – 59:21]

• The prosecution: Argues Lindsay was lucid, deliberate, and there’s no evidence of psychosis. Brings up Google searches (“methods to kill,” though Lindsay had looked up suicide, not homicide).
• The defense: Emphasizes psychiatric deterioration, missed diagnosis, medication mismanagement, and rare postpartum psychosis.
• Patrick Clancy’s testimony is central: Describes Lindsay’s loving nature, her diligent mental health care-seeking, frequent medication changes, and no clear warning of imminent violence.
• The nanny, Elaine Rossi:

  “I observed a wonderful mom who loved her kids, was very concerned with their safety, their schedules, their eating… She was a wonderful mother.” (43:07)

• Lindsay’s diary entries, introduced by the defense, show desperation—not animosity or hatred:

  “I want help. I want to be well…I feel completely disconnected from my baby… I desperately want to go back to work, but now I don’t know how I’m going to function.” (44:44)

• Medical witnesses and first responders testify: No observed psychosis before or after, Lindsay lucid soon after events, focused on her own condition and legal situation.

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Psychiatric Complexity & Insanity Defense in Massachusetts

[59:21 – 63:44]

• Massachusetts uses a “lack of criminal responsibility” defense, similar to but narrower than classic “insanity": the defendant must not have understood her actions were wrong, or been unable to conform to the law due to mental disease/defect.
• Massachusetts has a lower bar for a defense than other states—prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she was criminally responsible.
• Lindsay faces first-degree (premeditated) murder charges.
• Postpartum psychosis is rare (1–2 cases/1000 births, even more rarely leads to homicide); typically occurs in the first weeks postpartum, not eight months after birth.
• Chandler:

  “It was a very brief moment of postpartum psychosis and essentially a sea of lucidity.” (63:07)

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Public Reaction, Social Media, and Theories about Patrick Clancy

[64:45 – 73:24]

• Patrick Clancy became a flashpoint: ran a GoFundMe, wrote about Lindsay’s “generously loving” nature, gave a New Yorker interview, has since remarried and relocated to NYC.
• Internet conspiracy theories question Patrick’s role based on timing, his quick remarriage, minor details like shoe changes, and body temperature records—both hosts find these theories dubious.
• Lauren:

  “Let’s also just not forget the fact that Lindsay is very much so still here with us… If Patrick coerced her into doing something…don’t you think that her defense attorneys would have, like… brought it up?” (69:52)

• Both hosts conclude that online suspicions reflect public discomfort with the senselessness and horror of the crime.

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Hosts’ Reflections, Listeners’ Input, and Conversation Wrap-Up

[73:33 – 75:56]

• Lauren and Chandler struggle to fully decide whether Lindsay was psychotic, in a state of temporary insanity, or simply “snapped":
  • Chandler: “It doesn’t make sense that she was always so lucid except for these 25 minutes. But then it doesn’t make sense that if you’re planning on doing this, you’re also, that morning, taking your daughter to the doctor and building snowmen… I actually just don’t know. I go back.” (74:31)
• The tragedy illustrates failures “at every level”—from medical providers to societal stigma about postpartum mental illness.
• Both hosts urge listeners to share their own perspectives or information in the episode comments.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Chandler (on cultural stigma):

  "Postpartum depression was a taboo thing for women to discuss and talk about because…there’s all this pressure on you to be…in absolute bliss…a lot of women feel a lot of shame to admit they’re struggling." (07:01)

• Lauren (on the emotional pain):

  “There are no words to properly just. Yeah, there’s no words.” (05:06)

• Chandler (on ambiguity):

  “I actually don’t have an opinion on this… I really just am very gripped by it. But I really don’t know whether she was in a true state of psychosis.” (15:47)

• On the insanity defense (Lauren):

  “A defendant is not criminally responsible…if at the time of the conduct, as a result of a mental disease or defect, they lacked substantial capacity to either appreciate the wrongfulness…or conform their conduct to the requirements of the law.” (58:22)

• On public discourse and empathy (Chandler):

  “It’s easier to say, ‘This will never happen to me.’” (75:35)

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Summary Table: Case Facts and Legal Arguments

| Topic | Defense Argument | Prosecution Argument | |--------------------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------|------------------------------------------------------------------| | Lindsay’s Mental Health | Severe postpartum psychosis, exacerbated by med mismanagement | No evidence of psychosis pre/during/post; lucid before/after | | Psychiatric Testimony | Doctors lacked perinatal psychosis experience; incomplete records | Every provider observed no psychosis or delusions | | Medication History | Numerous changes, rapid cycling, documented negative effects | Common for depression/anxiety; not proof of psychosis | | Behavior on Day of Crime | No warning signs, “normal” family activity, journaled distress & desire to heal | Premeditation (Google searches, planning, actions during window) | | Statements after Crime | "Horrified by what happened," asks for attorney; does not mention kids | Self-focused, lucid, not asking about children’s wellbeing |

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Conclusion & Listener Takeaways

This episode does not provide a clear-cut answer—reflecting the complexity and ambiguity of the Lindsay Clancy case. The hosts emphasize empathy for the mentally ill, skepticism towards online conspiracy, and the importance of accurately understanding postpartum psychosis. With the trial ongoing, the case remains a touchstone for discussions of parental mental health, criminal justice, and societal taboos.

Listen for:

• Real-time reactions, deep dives into trial strategy, and candid cultural analysis.
• Reflection on psychiatric system flaws and how tragedies can evade even the most “responsible” families.
• Appeals for listener insights and respectful dialogue about one of the most disturbing cases in recent memory.

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Further Engagement

• Listeners are invited to comment on YouTube, Spotify, or social media to discuss their own reactions, theories, or missed details.
• Updates on the case—both legal and public interest—are promised in future episodes.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Lauren]

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[Chandler]

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[Lauren]

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[Chandler]

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[Lauren]

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[Chandler]

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[Lauren]

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[Chandler]

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[Lauren]

We know homes hire the right pro today. Well, well, well, everybody. Hello. Welcome to another episode of Pop Apologists. If you're tuning in via video, you might be noticing the fact that we are together, but also separate.

[Chandler]

We are back to our roots. Fully remote, but we're fully remote in a very special way because we finally have home studios, which is so.

[Lauren]

Guys, after six long years, we've graduated from bed to armchair to table. It's just. It's been a long road, but we've made it. So thank you for being here this whole time.

[Chandler]

My favorite was when we chatted with Sophia Franklin, and we were like, yeah, we decided, you know, it's time. We need to get, like, professional cameras. This was a couple years ago. And she was like, oh, yeah, totally. Like, how long you been podcasting for, like, five years.

[Lauren]

She was like, yeah, it's time.

[Chandler]

It's time, girls. Anyway, this has been a long time coming, and it feels so good. But without further ado, I feel like there's probably a lot of people that are here just for the Lindsay Clancy case. Deep dive, and they never heard of us. They definitely don't care about the nuances of our studio setup. So we should probably proceed to the matter at hand.

[Lauren]

Yeah, let's proceed. Because it's certainly going to be a tone shift. This case is everywhere right now.

[Chandler]

There's a few things going on in the celebrity sphere, but I just feel like the Lindsay Clancy case is actually what everyone is talking about. I mean, I have a wedding group chat. This wedding. I just went to the whole group chat is now of the guests who went to the wedding are debating this case. Really? Yeah, this case is everywhere and a lot of us cannot stop thinking about it.

[Lauren]

So I think we should just get right into it and lay things out for people listening.

[Chandler]

Yeah, and before we do that, let's just do a quick content warning this episode, everyone discusses the deaths of three young children and includes descriptions of violence, attempted suicide, and severe mental illness. So listener caution is advised.

[Lauren]

Okay, so let's begin with what actually happened and get into the crime. So on the evening of January 24, 2023, in the quiet coastal town of Duxbury, Massachusetts, Lindsay Clancy, a 32 year old former labor and delivery nurse, strangled her three young children with exercise resistance bands in the basement of the family's home on Summer Street. She then went upstairs, cut herself and jumped from a second story window in an attempt to end her own life. The fall and the injuries she sustained left her permanently paralyzed from the waist down.

[Chandler]

It's just absolutely gruesome. Her husband, Patrick Clancy, he had left the house roughly 25 minutes before to pick up dinner. And when he returned, the first thing he said he noticed, and this is just such an eerie detail, was that the house was very quiet, unnaturally quiet. If you have three young kids, generally, you're gonna have a pretty loud household. And so he knows something's wrong. He goes upstairs and the door to the primary bedroom is locked. And that's when he said he especially knew something was very wrong. So he unlocks the door, he gets the key, he unlocks the door and then he sees blood. He goes to the window that's open and he sees Lindsay lying on the ground outside. So he calls 91 1. He goes to Lindsay. Did you say anything to Lindsay when, when you found her in that state? Yeah, I said, what happened? And what was her response? She said, I tried to kill myself. Did you ask her anything else? I said, where are the kids? And what was her response? She said, they're in the basement. And at that time she didn't tell you that they needed help or they were in danger or they were injured, Correct? Correct. So he goes to the basement and devastatingly, he discovers that his five year old daughter Cora, his three year old son Dawson, and his seven month old Kellen. So Lindsay had strangled them with exercise bands. Cora and Dawson were both deceased and his seven month old was in critical condition.

[Lauren]

There are no words to properly just. Yeah, there's no words. Yeah. And I just, I. We kind of set the stage here. With the crime. And I just want to take a minute to say that we are obviously, like, getting into very graphic things early on, but we just wanted to kind of set the scene initially with. With what happened. So now, more than three years later, Lindsay is on trial in Plymouth Superior Court for three counts of first degree murder. She has pleaded not guilty. She doesn't dispute that she caused the children's deaths, but what she disputes is that, you know, through an insanity defense, whether she should be held criminally responsible for it. Her attorneys argue that she was in the grip of a severe and rapidly escalating moment of postpartum psychosis that was worsened by a cascade of psychiatric medications at the moment of the killings. Prosecutors argue the opposite. They say that whatever mental health struggles she had, she was lucid, deliberate, and fully aware of what she was doing when she killed her children.

[Chandler]

So this case has become one of the most closely watched criminal trials in Massachusetts history, not only because of the incomprehensible nature of the crime, but because it's really forced a public reckoning with postpartum psychosis, a very rare but very real psychiatric emergency that can turn a new mother's mind against her in a matter of days or even minutes.

[Lauren]

Yeah, I think that mental health is a newer thing that we are all aware of, you know, as a culture

[Chandler]

seeming to care about all of a sudden.

[Lauren]

Yeah. And I think specifically mental health, when it comes to women, postpartum is even newer feeling. I mean, I feel like I was not aware of postpartum mental illness, postpartum depression until maybe, like, I don't know, it just was not. It was not a part of the cultural conversation for me as an adult until, like, the last, you know, 10 years.

[Chandler]

I think that postpartum depression was a taboo thing for women to discuss and talk about because, you know, as a new mom, and I think that there's all this pressure on you to be, like, in the. You know, in absolute bliss, bonding with your baby. And I think that a lot of women feel a lot of shame to admit that they're struggling. And it was. I. Maybe it was. It wasn't Nicole Kidman. It was one celebrity female celebrity who said that they experienced postpartum depression. And remember how Tom Cruise said he believed it didn't exist?

[Lauren]

No, I don't remember that.

[Chandler]

Yeah, he. Tom Cruise, Um, basically.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

Yeah, Basically, Tom Cruise, you know, steeped in Scientology and Scientology famously is anti psychiatry, said that he thought it was a myth. Um, and so, anyway, yeah, there's been stigma, and there's been shame around postpartum depression, which is a huge problem because it prevents women from telling others what they're going through and ultimately seeking help.

[Lauren]

So this.

[Chandler]

I think this trial is really so important because we're really learning what potentially can happen. And now I know there are going to be a lot of people who say she wasn't in psychosis, Right? She. She deliberately wanted to do this, and that is the crux of this case. But there are a lot of people who do believe that when she committed these crimes, she was having an episode and she was not in the right state of mind. And she did not, you know, she did not have a grip on reality at all.

[Lauren]

Also, whether or not you believe that she was in psychosis or she was lucid on January 24, it is absolutely undisputed that she was in a severe mental health crisis in the months leading up to this crime.

[Chandler]

Right.

[Lauren]

And so there's just, like, a lot of attention now, you know, on. On what that looks like.

[Chandler]

Okay, so let's back up and talk about Lindsay and Patrick and give people an idea of the texture of their family life and who they were. So Lindsay, who is now 35 years old, she spent years working as a labor and delivery nurse in Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston, one of the most respected hospitals in the country. And obviously, there's a great irony there, because she was a labor and delivery nurse, and so she was a health care provider. She was someone who cared a lot about helping others. Colleagues and friends who knew her have described her in various accounts that have surfaced since this case became public as attentive, hardworking, and devoted to her patients and later to her own children. And it's a detail that's haunted the case from the start. She's a woman who spent her professional life helping bringing babies safely into the world. And how it's. How is it even possible that she would go on to kill her own three children?

[Lauren]

So Lindsay and Patrick married and settled in Duxbury, which is a picturesque town in Massachusetts, south shore, roughly 35 miles south of Boston. And they had three children in quick succession. So there was Cora, who was their oldest daughter, and she was actually named after the very first baby that Lindsay helped deliver. And she loved princesses. And playing imaginatively with her younger brother, Dawson, who was full of energy, very funny, prone to kind of, you know, squabbling with his older sister over toys in a way that really any three year old would. And Callan, their youngest, was born in May of 2022, just eight months before his death?

[Chandler]

Yeah. One thing or a few things? One. So I guess she wanted a big family, and she got pregnant pretty quickly after they got married. And this was something that she was excited about, happy about. She was very family oriented. And also, I think it is very meaningful that she names her first child after, you know, the first baby that she helped deliver. Clearly, she finds a great. Or found a great deal of meaning in her profession to name her first child after that child. And I do think it is just something to really know. You know, this was not an unfeeling, cold person who had no respect for life. This was someone who, it seems like, actually was very invested in her children and in bringing life into the world.

[Lauren]

Right. And their entire, you know, family unit looks from the outside like the perfect little happy young family. Um, Patrick worked in sales, and Lindsay had stepped back from full time nursing to take care of the children. And, you know, she occasionally would do, like, a per diem shift. Uh, they also employed a nanny, Elaine Rossi, to help with the childcare. But a detail here that would become significant later is that they actually ended the arrangement with Elaine Rossi, the nanny, in the weeks before the killings when Patrick and Lindsay decided that they would care for the children themselves.

[Chandler]

Yeah, so, you know, this was a loving, happy family. And then there was just an unraveling after Callan was born, as Lindsay is very much struggling with her mental health.

[Lauren]

So now that the trial is on, the public is kind of getting the first detailed picture of Lindsay's mental health decline that really began in the months leading up to these killings. And this is all kind of pieced together through the medical records and the testimony from Patrick and from different psychiatric providers. So Lindsay first sought psychiatric treatment in September of 2022, roughly four months after the birth of Callan. And according to Dr. Jennifer Tufts, an outpatient psychiatrist with a professional interest in perinatal mental health, Lindsay actually specifically went to her, you know, because she specialized in that. And Lindsay was experiencing escalating anxiety as she prepared to return to work. So Dr. Tufts diagnosed her with generalized anxiety disorder and adjustment disorder with depressed mood, not bipolar disorder or postpartum psychosis, and she prescribed Zoloft. After starting and increasing the medication, however, Lindsay reported worsening anxiety and severe insomnia. The Zoloft was discontinued, beginning what would become months of medication changes.

[Chandler]

Yeah, so by November, her symptoms had escalated enough that she sought emergency treatment for severe insomnia, and she began seeing additional psychiatric providers, including specialists in perinatal behavioral health. Over the following weeks. She is prescribed or tries numerous medications, including Prozac, Trazodone, Ambien, Remeron, Klonopin and Seroquel. In spite of trying all these medications, her anxiety, depression and insomnia continues. But the clinicians treating her have testified that they did not observe her with mania or psychosis.

[Lauren]

I want to just inject here a little bit of my own personal experience with psychiatrists and taking medication, because I think it's. It might be helpful for people who, you know, aren't familiar with this at all.

[Chandler]

So when you, you know, when you

[Lauren]

first start seeing a psychiatrist, you explain the symptoms you're having, and then, you know, they might recommend medication or they might not, but it's really kind of a different process because it takes a while for a lot of these, like. Like a medication like Zoloft, which I've taken to kick in. So you're not going to be able to feel the effects a lot of times, you know, and I'm obviously not a doctor, but, you know, it'll take weeks before you can start feeling it. It's not like an immediate, you know, remedy. It takes a while to kind of like, acclimate to your system. And so if she's experiencing these terrible, terrible symptoms, you know, it's.

[Chandler]

It's going to take so long for

[Lauren]

these medications to potentially work or not work or for them to really know when they would be like to really properly examine them if they're. To see if they're working. So you kind of. You have. You, like, start on a medication and then you don't. You might check in one week later or, you know, two weeks later, but it's just, you know, time marches on and. And, you know, so if you'll notice, like, she seeks treatment in September, but November, you know, her symptoms are still escalating. And now it's just like, now we're just trying new things, but it's gonna take a minute for those new things to kick in. And so it's just like, I don't know if that's helpful for people to understand the way that, like, the way that this are. These are just like, not fast fixes where you can just automatically know this medication is working. This one's not.

[Chandler]

I think what you're getting at is obviously, it's not like Advil, where you'll know if it's working in an hour. This is something where you're gonna have to wait to see if it's working over several weeks. And during the several weeks, you're gonna have to most likely keep enduring whatever struggle you're going through. So I think that does help paint a picture of just the, of how probably excruciating this experience was for her.

[Lauren]

I think also the insomnia is really huge here. In my research for this, I read that, like at one point she said she was only getting three hours of sleep, like at best. And I mean, anybody knows when you are, I mean, when you are going on days and weeks of very little sleep, like your mind changes, I think that this, it all just paints a picture of a very, very dire situation. Yeah.

[Chandler]

And one thing I want to say is that I actually don't have an opinion on this, this whole case. I don't have a theory. I, I feel like I really just am very gripped by it. But I really don't know whether she was in a true state of psychosis when this happened or if this was something that, you know, she knew what she was doing. I don't have a conclusion yet personally, but so I just want to give that disclaimer when I tell you the following. I was listening to a seven part series on this case to prepare for this episode, and someone wrote in to that series and they said I, you know, had a severe psychiatric episode after being on Zoloft for, I think they said they only took it once and they felt the effects though, for weeks. And they said that they also didn't even feel like they went back to normal for a couple years. And so these medications can, you know, they can be perfect for some people. For other people, they can absolutely cause them to potentially have issues. And so that's another thing to really kind of know about. It's like these are medications that are tampering and tinkering around with the, you know, chemicals in your brain. And that's a delicate system to be, you know, tinkering with, especially if you're operating on very little sleep.

[Lauren]

Yes. And then when you're maybe introducing new medications and they're interacting, I mean, I know another thing here is that she is seeing a couple different psychiatrists and they're not all necessarily talking to each other about their treatment plans and their histories of being with Lindsay. Like, this is what she told me. This is what she told me.

[Chandler]

And one thing about that, they talk about it in the trial there. She's not doctor shopping. Right. So she's not getting prescriptions for a bunch of different doctors. I believe one of her doctors maybe retires and refers her to someone else. There's just, it's all very Kosher. She gets, you know, a recommendation to see a different doctor from her mother in law or something like that. But the way that, the way that Patrick describes her seeking help from these doctors was all very above board.

[Lauren]

Yes.

[Chandler]

Okay, so back to, you know, this time of crisis for her and her seeking help and treatment. She starts seeking help in September, and by December, her condition had become considerably more alarming. She reported suicidal thoughts and made two calls to a suicide or crisis hotline. Patrick later testified that Lindsay also disclosed thoughts of harming herself and the children to him, and the couple began actively pursuing a higher level of psychiatric care.

[Lauren]

Yeah, so, you know, Patrick testifies and these doctors testify that like basically every month there's kind of a new development or, you know, she's seeing a different doctor and things are getting worse. It's not like she's just like letting this go unchecked for months. So then around December 20, Lindsay was evaluated at the center for Women's Behavioral Health at the Women's and Infants Hospital in Rhode Island, a program specializing in perinatal psychiatric illness. Despite the severity of her symptoms, she was not admitted to the specialized program. And clinicians reportedly believe that her medications, particularly Seroquel, could be contributing to her condition. And they just recommended that she just reduce taking that drug.

[Chandler]

So she continues to struggle. And around the beginning of January, she voluntarily admits herself to McLean Hospital because of suicidal ideation. So she comes under the care of psychiatrist Dr. Aaliyah Goodhart. And Lindsay reports feeling numb. And Goodhart ultimately diagnoses her with severe major depressive disorder without psychotic features. Her medications are changed and reduced, and over the course of roughly five days of hospitalization, she appears to improve. Goodhart does testify that she never observed signs of psychosis in Lindsay.

[Lauren]

So this, this admission from this doctor has become a major focus of the defense because under cross examination, Goodhart acknowledged that in more than 20 years of psychiatric practice, she actually had never treated a patient with postpartum psychosis. She also acknowledged that she did not administer a validated postpartum depression screening tool, which I think is called the Edinburgh Postnatal Depression Scale, and had not obtained Lindsay's prior psychiatric records before she was discharged. Basically, you know, it's interesting that this doctor says that she didn't appear to see any psychosis within Lindsay, but she also had never seen a patient with it in her 20 years. So the defense's argument is that Lindsay had finally reached one of the country's leading psychiatric hospitals in crisis, and yet the doctors evaluating her still failed to identify the condition they now say she was actually developing all along.

[Chandler]

So after leaving McLean, she returns home and resumed outpatient treatment with Dr. Tufts. She reportedly denied that her suicidal ideation and frightening thoughts had returned, but continued expressing concern that the medications she'd been prescribed were making her feel worse. That concern became central to the defense's broader theory that Lindsay's underlying illness was mismanaged and misdiagnosed. While an increasingly complicated medication regimen may have exacerbated her condition, but outwardly, she

[Lauren]

still appeared relatively normal. And on January 22, two days before the killings, the Clancy's had dinner with friends. One friend later told investigators that Lindsay seemed fairly normal, although she was quiet and spent much of the evening on her phone and sort of kept to herself. The friend was surprised that Lindsay had actually come at all, given what Patrick had shared about, you know, the state of her mental health and how she was doing. The friend said that it was the first time they'd seen her in months.

[Chandler]

So the next day, January 23, the day before the killings, Lindsay has a virtual appointment with Dr. Tufts, and Lindsay says that she's doing all right, Although somewhat more anxious, which she described as a racing heartbeat. According to Dr. Tufts, Lindsay denied suicidal or homicidal thoughts, and Dr. Tufts on no sign of psychosis. In fact, Dr. Tufts testifies that she had never observed Lindsay to be psychotic at all during any of their sessions.

[Lauren]

So this final appointment is what makes Lindsay's psychiatric history so important to this case. Once again, she was not someone who never sought help. I mean, she was a nurse herself. In the four months leading up to January 24, she saw multiple psychiatric providers. She cycled through numerous medications, sought emergency treatment. I mean, she checked herself into a facility.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Lauren]

She contacted crisis services and was evaluated by, you know, specialized mental health providers. And, you know, she just did everything.

[Chandler]

Yeah, and I think that's where a lot of people are feeling like, wow, if a woman checks herself in and says, I'm having, you know, suicidal ideation, I'm voluntarily committing myself. I think some people are really just baffled at the way that she was. It seems like the. She did not get a real high level of care and that these professionals did not catch this.

[Lauren]

The medical providers in this situation absolutely failed her. And I think a big thing was that they were not talking to each other to kind of, like, put all the puzzle pieces together.

[Chandler]

Yeah, I think not only that, but also, you know, it's interesting to me that she tells Patrick that she's had, you know, both suicidal ideation and thoughts of harming the children, but she doesn't tell any of her medical providers that she's had thoughts of harming the children. And there is the question of, you know, if that had been communicated to them from Patrick, maybe there could have been a different outcome here. Maybe they would have taken this more seriously. But that is. I think that is an important note. Right. Because she does. She kind of, like, she raises the red flags about her emotional state to both the medical professionals and her husband in a pretty dramatic way.

[Lauren]

Yeah. I mean, I think that as far as I know, in my research for this case, you know, she checks herself into that facility, but she doesn't have, like, a.

[Chandler]

A.

[Lauren]

A really severe crisis or episode in these months. Yeah.

[Chandler]

It's not like she had any crazy episode where people realized that she was potentially losing touch with reality. And I do think that's an important note. Yeah.

[Lauren]

I mean, the only thing that was close to that, that I saw in my research was that at one point she started to exercise a lot, and she was. Well, she wasn't also sleeping. And so she was, like, exercising a ton. Like, running three miles, then, like, just. Then biking a ton, just kind of doing a lot. And that didn't really make sense because she also wasn't, like, sleeping, and it just. It just was sort of out of character. But, yeah, there was no. Oh, there was this incident, and this should have tipped everybody off. Yeah.

[Chandler]

And I think that's what's so gripping about this. Right. Like, she was seeking help, but the absolute severity of what she was going through was not detected. And so I think that people. It just. It's scary. It's really.

[Lauren]

It's really scary.

[Chandler]

It's because you always want to think, like, it's like when someone gets sick or something bad happens, you always want to know, like, okay, well, did they have a symptom they ignored? You want to start, you know, going through your mind of why this wouldn't happen to you. And so I think that when people are hearing a story about. Yeah. A wife who is suffering from postpartum death, depression, and who was going through it, that still is so shocking that she did what she did. Yeah.

[Lauren]

And I mean, we all know plenty of people with. I mean, I have, like, ocd. Like, we all know people with all of the, you know, the mental illnesses or, like, a range of mental illnesses, I should say. And so it's. It's really hard to imagine that, you know, someone can be struggling with a severe mental illness and that they can just like suddenly snap. Snap and have psychosis. Have.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Lauren]

You know, and, and so with all of that in mind, you know, despite everything that she tried to do, you know, the medications that were prescribed to her, you know, no treating provider diagnosed Lindsay with postpartum psychosis or reported observing her in a psychotic state. And that fact really sits, like, at the center of this case and between the prosecution and the defense. The defense argues that Lindsay was developing a severe postpartum or bipolar spectrum illness that was repeatedly missed and potentially wor by her psychiatric medications. The prosecution is pointing to, you know, that exact same medical history and is asking a very different question. And what they're asking is if Lindsay was repeatedly evaluated by psychiatric professionals, including during, you know, an inpatient hospitalization stay just weeks earlier, and none of them observed psychosis. When and whether did that psychosis actually, like, emerge?

[Chandler]

Right. That is a key question. Not only that, but it's about when did the psychosis begin? When did it stop? Because when you learn about what she said, you know, what she said to Patrick on the ground, she says, I tried to kill myself. The kids are in the basement. What she says to the doctors at the hospital, you know, it seems like she's pretty lucid before and after and has a grip on reality. It's not like she, you know, Patrick's like, what happened? And she's like, aren't we at Disneyland? Not to make lighter, whatever, but it's not like she's. She knows exactly where she is, who

[Lauren]

she is, she knows where the kids are.

[Chandler]

Not to say that you can't have a psychotic episode and remember it in detail and now be in a lucid state. But that's, I think, one of the huge parts of this, right? Because her entire case rests on this idea that she had this 25 minute psychotic episode that happened to fall when he had left the home and gone to cvs. As summer fades, most people start shifting back into regular routines. With earlier mornings and fuller calendars. Getting dressed can feel like one more decision. So having a simple system really helps. Macy's makes that transition smoother by focusing on staples that make for an easy formula. Start with the pieces you already reach for, like a favorite pair of jeans

[Lauren]

and a basic tee.

[Chandler]

Then add one element of personality, like strappy animal print flats or a great bag. This keeps the look effortless without requiring extra thought. For the in between, weather layers become essential. A light sweater or a leather jacket can go on or off. As temperatures shift throughout the day, accessories take the outfit even further. A slim shoulder Bag. A pair of statement earrings or a few layered necklaces can turn a simple combination into something more polished for busy days. And don't forget, free Macy's stylists are here to help. Pop into your local Macy's for free access to personal stylists who can help curate a look. Shop the back to routine styles in store or online@macy's.com. so anyway, let's get to the day of the killing. So according to testimony, Lindsay took Cora to her daughter to a doctor's appointment that day. And later they built a snowman in the backyard. She built. Built the snowman with all three children while Patrick worked from the basement in his home office. Patrick later would testify. This is just so sad that this was one of her best days. And this is a very cruel detail to emerge from this case because this was just an ordinary, ordinary, even joyful day. And there was no way for him to have any understanding that things had gone desperately wrong.

[Lauren]

Yeah, I think I read that she, like, sent pictures of like, the snowman to, like, you know, to Patrick's mom or to her mom, basically, you know, just like in the family group chat, just of this, like, cute activity that they'd done.

[Chandler]

So, which really quick, I just have to say, if anything that points to her defense and means she was completely fine. And I. I just think that there is a world where I, and I, again, I, like, will flip flop mentally in my head as we're doing this deep dive, because none of this makes any sense. And so there is a world, in my opinion, where all these medications and all the sleep deprivation could have triggered a moment of psychosis. It absolutely could have. But then there are just other details that are also confounding that lead you to believe that maybe she planned it. So.

[Lauren]

So in the early evening, Patrick left the house to pick up dinner, telling his family that he would be right back. He kissed one of the children on the head on his way out, and he was gone for approximately 25 minutes. And this window of time has become like a huge thing in the trial. And it's central to the prosecution's theory of premeditation. And it gets into a very pointed question that the prosecutor, Patrick on the stand, which is, you know, had anyone ever told him to not leave the children alone with Lindsay? He responded and said no. And, you know, his. His stops for that Evening in that 25 minutes were a CVS. He went to the pharmacy there and to a restaurant where he picked up takeout.

[Chandler]

Prosecutors allege that in that narrow Window. Lindsay used exercise resistance bands to strangle Cora Dawson and Kellen in the home, in the home basement, and then went upstairs, cut her wrist and neck, and jumped from a second story bedroom window into the backyard below. One of the prosecutors characterized her actions in blunt terms. He said she did not take advantage of the situation when her husband left the home that night. She created the situation.

[Lauren]

So we kind of touched on these details earlier. But when Patrick returned, the house was unusually quiet. He went to the primary bedroom, and he found blood on the floor, and the window was standing wide open. He testified that he, quote, saw blood everywhere. He ran outside and found Lindsay lying on the ground in the backyard, face up, badly, badly injured and drifting in and out of consciousness.

[Chandler]

One thing to note is another fact that, you know, is on the prosecution, prosecutor's side is that there was a Google search for how long it would take him to go to cvs. And so it, you know, she understood how much time she had. Now, whether that was part of the psychosis. Right. Whether the voices told her to plan. That's where it gets really dicey. But anyway, that is another. Another thing to note. Yeah.

[Lauren]

And some people have said, too, that, you know, how do we know that she wasn't just looking, like, to see if there was traffic on the way or, like, if, you know, she was planning on getting takeout, too? Like, I will say, like, I'm a person who. I look up stuff on Google Maps all the time, even if I'm not taking the journey. Like, I want to see how long will it take Ben to get home from wherever he's at.

[Chandler]

Completely fair. Completely fair. So he tries to call 911 immediately, but he struggles to get the call to connect his phone keeps toggling onto the WI fi. He eventually does connect to dispatchers. And this seven to eight minute call is so harrowing. It is apparently just, like, so terrible. It's recommended, I guess it is online, but it's really recommended not to listen to it. And when the jury heard it, when it was played for them, first of all, Patrick leaves the courtroom because he does not want to hear it. And when it's played for them, I guess jurors are very visibly emotional.

[Lauren]

I just. I mean, it makes me sick that it's like, somehow online.

[Chandler]

Yeah. Like, I am the world we live in.

[Lauren]

I know, I know. I'm just like, yeah, it's. It's one thing to want to talk about this case, and it's just another thing to, like, some of these details are just like, it's just some things are just too, it's just like too. Too much.

[Chandler]

Yeah, it's like you don't.

[Lauren]

Not everyone should be privy to it.

[Chandler]

Absolutely. And there's a reason why, you know, photos of the scene are not online. Like there's a reason why these things are not just released. So it is, it is upsetting that it's publicly available. Yeah. And one other thing to note that 911 call is particularly devastating because he doesn't even realize that he's left it on. So once he goes to look for the children in the basement because she's told him that they're there, he accidentally just, it does not hang up. And so you hear just him discover his children. And we are, Chandler and I are going to discuss everyone, the theory about Patrick at the end because obviously we know that there is a huge, you know, there are definitely a lot of people out there who are suspicious of him. And so we're going to talk about that at the end.

[Lauren]

Yeah, we'll get to that later. But back to what happened. So later on at the hospital, Lindsay, you know, is rushed there because she has fallen and her spinal cord was severed from this fall. It left her completely paralyzed. She coded, went into cardiac arrest and needed emergency resuscit. She also needed major blood transfusions. And two days after the killings, while Lindsay was awaiting spinal surgery at Brigham and Women's hospital, forensic psychiatrist Dr. Biswas evaluated her. And according to testimony, Lindsay, who could not speak at the time because she was on a ventilator, communicated by writing on paper. And she wrote that she was, quote, horrified by what had happened and asked for an attorney.

[Chandler]

Yeah. So one thing to note here, a lot of people are very suspicious of the fact that she doesn't really ask about her kids at all. At all. She doesn't ask about her kids period. And her focus seems to be on herself. She asks, I guess, you know, if her legs are straight. So she's coming to realize that she's been paralyzed. And you know, she asked for an attorney. So it seems like she's very focused on, on herself and what's happening to her. And again, you know, if, if she was in a, if she had psychosis, you would definitely think there would be more, more questions about what had happened to her children and their well being.

[Lauren]

Also, I don't know the exact timeline details of this, but obviously their youngest child, you know, the seven month old was alive.

[Chandler]

He was alive. I'm not sure if he was conscious. I don't think he was Conscious.

[Lauren]

What I'm saying is that it's interesting because, like, I don't know when he actually did pass away, but I, you know, did she ask about him, how he was doing? You know, like, it's just if no questions were asked about him or it's. It is. It is. That's interesting.

[Chandler]

So Lindsay's arrested and charged in the following days for the killings. In September 2023. A Plymouth county grand jury indicts her on three counts of first degree murder and three counts of strangulation, one of each per child. In the immediate aftermath, before the granular psychiatric timeline had been established at trial, public reporting captured a family and community in absolute shock. So the Duxbury fire chief and deputy chief issued a joint statement acknowledging the emotional toll on the first responders who worked on the scene, offering them support, resources. A candlelight vigil was held for Cora, and Dawson Callan's death was confirmed slightly later, according to that early reporting. Fox News and other outlets reported early on, citing unnamed sources and court documents, that Lindsay had allegedly heard voices before the killings and that her defense would center on failures of the medical system that treated her. A preview of the argument that would eventually be formalized in court today.

[Lauren]

So Patrick Clancy, in the years between, you know, the crime and the trial, became somewhat of, like a public figure in his own right. He started a GoFundMe campaign within. Within days of his children's death, writing that, quote, the real Lindsay was generously loving and caring and that all he wished for was for her to somehow find peace. In October of 2024, he gave an extensive interview to the New Yorker, telling the magazine, I wasn't married to a monster. I was married to someone who got sick. And this interview actually becomes a significant point of the pretrial legal conflict as the prosecutor sought to obtain the reporter's notes and recordings. They argue that they might, you know, contain relevant statements for the trial.

[Chandler]

Yeah, interestingly, though, I did look this up. They. They couldn't. They. They ultimately lost. They were not able to get the reporter's notes, which is interesting because you would think that Conde Nast, which owns a New Yorker, which is wanna. I don't. I. It's. That's weird to me that they wouldn't be like, yeah, take everything we got. So I don't. I don't really particularly understand that. Patrick, though, has since remarried and relocated to Manhattan. He married an endocrinologist. And they. They either have a child or she's pregnant. And so a lot of people are, you Know a lot of people, it doesn't sit well with them how quickly he has moved on and created a new life. But we're. Again, we're going to talk about that at the end.

[Lauren]

Yeah. Okay. So I think we should now get into the trial.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Lauren]

It's worth noting that it takes a very long time to get this trial on the books. It gets. The dates get pushed a bunch of times. And so we finally arrive at the trial in July of this year.

[Chandler]

So the prosecution calls Patrick Clancy as their first witness. A significant and telling choice since as the children's father and Lindsay's then husband, his testimony carries enormous emotional weight and, you know, it can establish the factual backbone of the case before any medical testimony begins. He testified across the trial's first several days describing both the ordinary texture of their family life and its slow than rapid unraveling.

[Lauren]

So Patrick also testified about Lindsay's efforts to seek mental health treatment in the months leading up to the crime. And also he talks about the practical details of her medication regimen, how the prescriptions change frequently, and how sometimes he would dispose of discontinued medications at her request, and how after the crime, he turned over additional pills to investigators. The defense used this portion of the testimony to begin establishing the ship, sheer volume and complexity of what Lindsay had been prescribed in those, you know, in those months before the crime, you know, in late 2022, early 2023. And they actually physically produced the pill bottles that had been dispensed to her, just kind of like, you know, visually show how much there was.

[Chandler]

Yeah. And the prosecution, they tried to really focus and hone in on Lindsay's mental state and, you know, what people thought that were coming into contact with her. So they ask Patrick, you know, did anyone ever tell you not to leave your kids alone with Lindsey? No. In January of 2024, 2023, did Lindsey ever tell you that she wanted to harm your children? No. Did she ever tell you she was going to kill your children? Yeah. And the prosecution there, they're just trying to establish that Lindsay's family support network had reason to see her as a person who was managing, not as someone who was in an active danger, undercutting the narrative of an obvious visible psychotic break that anyone around her would have recognized.

[Lauren]

So just a note here that the defense filed a motion during this stretch of testimony asking prosecutors to refrain from referencing Internet searches Lindsay had allegedly made about ways to kill. This was an indication that the prosecution possesses digital evidence and intends to use to argue for premeditation and that the defense is really fighting to keep some of that evidence, or at least its framing, away from the jury.

[Chandler]

Yeah. And interestingly, you know, when they are. When they're using that phrase, they're using it to try to lead the jury to believe that she's looked up methods to kill her children, but she was actually looking up suicide methods. So that is another, like, very problematic thing the. The prosecution has done. And, you know, I understand that everyone deserves. Like, we have decided that every person has a right to a defense, and we are going to also have prosecution for crimes, of course. So I understand that, you know, attorneys should do their best to fight for who. For who they're fighting for, but I just don't understand how it's appropriate to. To intentionally mislead or lie. And I know that sounds, like, so naive, because I know, like, attorneys lying is basically, like, people think that's just a. Like that's a given.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

And so I just. I just find it to be. I just find it to be insane because it's like, it shouldn't be about winning. It should just be about the truth. And so both sides should just be presenting the truth anyway.

[Lauren]

Yeah. Well, I love. I love you. With the scales of justice right here.

[Chandler]

Sorry.

[Lauren]

Not just for a little bit of levity. And, I mean, I. I think I don't fully understand what's happening here. Like, is the. Are the lawyers literally saying ways to kill, like, verbatim in front of the jury? Because if so, that's crazy. That. That feels like. That I'm like, objection. Like, I'm ready to rise out of my seat and strike that from the record.

[Chandler]

No, exactly. But the problem is you can't unring the bell. Right. So even if the judge grants the motion, the jury has already heard it.

[Lauren]

This is something I've learned from my extensive John Grisham experience, which has given me a Juris Doctorate. But, you know, it's like. Like literally what you do, and then, like, the. The other side objecting. Like, that's a whole strategy. This is for any lawyers listening, like, God help me, because it's such a dumb. I thought you were going to take away.

[Chandler]

Any lawyers listening. Call me. I can give you something.

[Lauren]

For any lawyers listening. I actually understand how things work better on myself. Yeah. It's like. But that's a whole strategy is like, you can still say things and the judge can still say, you know, strike that from the record. But, like, you're saying you can't ring the bell.

[Chandler]

Okay. So this next section is important to me. So this is the nanny's testimony. Her name is Elaine Rossi. And I want to say that I actually started listening to. The first thing I ever listened to about this case was the nanny's testimony. And it is just so sad because the nanny describes Lindsay as a wonderful mother. She describes Lindsay as, like, very caring, very conscientious, very concerned about their schedules, what they're eating like, again, also, things that. Something else that doesn't make sense. If you're planning this, why are we taking, you know, your daughter to the pediatrician that morning? It's like, we don't really need a doctor's appointment if this is the plan. And so I think that, you know, it's just. It doesn't make sense at all. What did you observe about her as a mother interacting with her kids? I observed a wonderful mom who loved her kids, who was. She was very concerned with their safety. She was very concerned with Callan's eating and sleeping. She was a wonderful mother. And she says, I loved Lindsay. Like, they had a great relationship, and she really loved the kids. She said that and that they were really sweet children. So it's just. It's heartbreaking.

[Lauren]

So notably, courtroom observers reported that Lindsay held her head in her hands throughout Lane Rossi's testimony and did not look up, even after Elaine had left the stand. And this was just one of the moments where, you know, Lindsay was very caught up in emotion hearing, you know, the nanny talk about her relationship with her.

[Chandler]

Yeah, and I. I think that clearly, you know, this was a woman she had a personal relationship with. And so hearing, you know, seeing her reaction to this thing that's happened, of course she's going to be very emotional. Okay, so let's talk about the dire entries that Lindsay wrote. So the week of August 3rd through 7th, the trial brought out some of the most difficult material, encompassing both Lindsay's private writing and details, clinical details, about her children's deaths. Attorneys read aloud portions from Lindsay's diary that she'd written in the months leading up to the killings. And this was, you know, her documenting her own declining mental health while she continues caring for her children. And so these are some of the things she writes. She says, I'm completely overwhelmed trying to take care of the three kids. I feel like I'm drowning every day. She also says, I don't know what's wrong with me. I want help. I want to be well. I feel completely disconnected from my baby. I feel like I'm going through the motions every day. I have crazy brain fog. I. I feel like I can't make a plan. My mind never shuts off. It's constantly thinking of the next thing someone needs. I desperately want to go back to work, but now I don't know how I'm going to function. Like, she's really just. She's so clearly on the brink. Right. Because, yeah, I think that having three young children is already stressful enough. And then you. You couple on top of that, insomnia, and then you also couple on top of that postpartum depression. And then you couple on top of that, all these medications.

[Lauren]

Yeah, yeah, that aren't helping.

[Chandler]

She says, I want to connect with Pat again. I know he needs it. I need it. And she. I guess she told Pat that. She said, I even said the words, I want to die while Pat was crying or while he was crying, referring to Callan's sleep training. I think one thing to. To note here is that these journals don't contain. I don't want to be a mom anymore. I hate my children. I hate my life. I'm. Oh, I. I'm done with this. She says, like, I want to be well, you know, I. I want help. So I think that that is just. It's important to note that, that she is, like, she is just expressing, obviously, like, a lot of anxiety and a lot of problems with what she's going through, but she's not describing, you know, wanting to harm her kids or wanting to not be a mom anymore. Popapologist is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money. When you bundle your home and auto policies, the process only takes minutes, and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Lauren]

So after Patrick Clancy's testimony concluded, prosecutors called nearly a dozen first responders, paramedics, police officers, you know, everybody who arrived at the Duxbury home on the night of the crime. Their testimony focused on the clinical and procedural details of the scene, their attempts to resuscitate the children, the nature and severity of Lindsay's own injuries when they arrived to treat her, and other things like that.

[Chandler]

Yeah. The jury also is taken to the home. So they go to the Clancy's former home and they go to the basement. They go up to the primary bedroom, they look at the window, they, you know, go into the backyard, just so that they can really get a in person idea of the layout of, you know, where all of this happened. And then there's testimony from a CVS pharmacy employee who interacted with Patrick, corroborating essentially his alibi, which there's also video camera footage of. They called a lot of medical witnesses and essentially they have constructed a psychiatric wall or a clinical wall. They're calling a sequence of medical professionals who treated Lindsay in the weeks and months surrounding the killings, each testifying that they personally observed no signs of active psychosis. So truly trying to build this case that obviously she was completely lucid and acting of her own free will during the crime.

[Lauren]

Okay, so the first doctor is Sejal Shaw. This doctor examined Lindsey multiple times at Brigham and Women's Hospital in the days and weeks following the crime in both January and February. And they testified that Lindsay was calm and cooperative during those evaluations. And they were really conducted in part to determine whether she was in an appropriate, appropriate mental state to consent to changes in her medical treatment. In a January 30th assessment, so, you know, just days after Lindsay denied any suicidal or homicidal intentions, she denied experiencing hallucinations or delusions. And her thought process was described by Dr. Shaw as organized and goal directed. By a February assessment, Lindsay was described as focused on her legal and physical circumstances and looking forward to. To rehabilitation. I think this is worth just taking a moment to talk about, you know, this horrific thing has just occurred and she, you know, doesn't seem. It's almost like now she's lucid like she is now. Like, you know, okay, I'm focusing on my rehabilitation and my. This now legal case in front of me. She's no longer suicidal. Yeah.

[Chandler]

I think that the problem is that Lindsay seems to be primarily lucid.

[Lauren]

Right.

[Chandler]

And very quickly after this happens, she is focused on the future and focused on her defense. And I think that there is a sentiment that if she had truly experienced this psychotic break, she wouldn't be so just coherent right from the get go afterward. And that is, you know, perfectly dovetailing into the next doctor, Dr. Jeelam Biswas, because two days after the killing, she's on a ventilator and her first questions are about herself. You know, are my legs straight? And then she also asks for an attorney and says that she's horrified. But again, this is not what happened. Where am I? Who am I? This is not hallucinating. This is not visibly, you know, clearly still enduring an episode. This is someone who is coherent and focused on the Future.

[Lauren]

Right, right. Who's kind of snapped out of it, whatever it was.

[Chandler]

Yeah. And I think that's, that's what's so crazy is like she had to snap into it and then she has to snap out of it.

[Lauren]

Right.

[Chandler]

Snap into it really quickly because she was. Had a great morning, seemed completely fine. And then snap out of it immediately when Patrick is back and asks where the kids are. And so that's the crux of the case, of the defense.

[Lauren]

I mean, I really, I really just struggle with this on so many different levels. Like with making up my own mind about this.

[Chandler]

No, I know. And I want to come from a place of empathy and I do most of the time when I'm hearing about what she went through. But then it's like you stack all these facts together and it's really hard to believe on some level because you're really asked to believe she had a 25 minute moment of psychosis where she was in a different reality and she was not acting, you know, of her own free will, essentially. And then she's basically back to, back to earth immediately after it's over. It's. It's really hard to grapple with. I mean, what do you guys think? This is obviously the key question in the case. Please write in the comments, let us know where you're at, because we are just, we're confounded.

[Lauren]

I think like, where I struggle is the idea that this was somehow premeditated. Whether or not she was in a frame of mind where she knew that she was committing a crime and she committed it anyway, or she was so out of her mind that she didn't even know she was committing a crime. But, you know, and so of course she went, went through with it. Like, I feel like that's the two worlds I'm between. Like, I, I'm not in any world where I think she planned this. Do you know what I'm saying?

[Chandler]

So you're saying that she. Either she either had a true psychotic episode or she snapped and was so upset and frustrated and over. Over her life and she was, she just had like a crazy angry episode.

[Lauren]

Like in one world she knows that she's committing a crime, but she's going through with it anyway. And then there is another world where there are voices in her head and she's like, I have to follow these voices. That's just how I'm like classifying it. Because it's unbelievable to think that she could have premeditated this. And it honestly doesn't. The facts don't lead to us to think that she premeditated it.

[Chandler]

In my opinion, except for the fact that she Googled how long it would take him to do that.

[Lauren]

I just don't think that I. Yeah, I don't. I mean, why did she pick up the phone?

[Chandler]

I mean. Yeah, she picks up the phone midway through the killings, ostensibly because.

[Lauren]

Yeah.

[Chandler]

But I still had to ask her a question, and she says, if you call back, I might be busy with something.

[Lauren]

He said it sounded like she was in the middle of something. But I don't. I don't understand then, like, why. Why not just not pick up the phone if we're premeditating this?

[Chandler]

That. I mean, that's such a good point. Or if you're in the midst of doing it. Yeah.

[Lauren]

And also, it doesn't seem sophisticated enough of a plan to be premeditated by somebody who was, like, looking to get away with this.

[Chandler]

Some people would theorize that because she's a medical professional, she knew her cut wounds were not sufficient to die.

[Lauren]

Yes, there's this.

[Chandler]

And there are some people that think that she, you know, went out the window, but just, like, gripped on and fell from as, like, low of a height as possible. That way, you know, she would. She would obviously be injured, but she wouldn't actually die. And this was just her way of getting out of being a mother. And again, it just. That. To me, that doesn't make any sense.

[Lauren]

I think she. She was a person who had suicidal ideation. She wanted to escape her life.

[Chandler]

Yeah, she. She literally. She's paralyzed. She's a medical professional. She knew she was going to risk paralysis. And there are, you know, the. I definitely have seen where people say, like, it's actually kind of crazy that she got paralyzed because she didn't fall from that high.

[Lauren]

Yeah, I was 20ft or something. I have no idea.

[Chandler]

Yeah, I don't either. And that is why, you know, that is why I will be very interested to hear, I think, from the psycho, the psychologist that the defense calls, because I want to hear more about the details of how psychosis happens and how possible all of this is.

[Lauren]

Right. Yeah, that's another good point. Like, we are still only hearing the prosecution side of everything. Okay. So getting back into it. So, Dr. Aaliyah Goodhart, this is the McLean Hospital psychiatrist who supervised Lindsay's discharge roughly three weeks before the crime. She testified that she saw no signs of psychosis during Lindsay's stay. But as we've talked about, her credibility on this is called into question because she says that she's never actually treated a postpartum psychosis patient in her 20 years of experience.

[Chandler]

The next is Dr. Jennifer Tough. So this is Lindsay's outpatient psychiatrist who saw her the day before the killings. And she testified that Lindsay denied any suicidal or homicidal ideation in that final session and that she had never observed signs of psychosis and Lindsay across their four months of treatment together. That was testimony that it's on, on its face is powerful for the prosecution given how close in time it sits to the killings themselves. So if she's saying the day before, you know, I felt I. I have no suicidal or homicidal ideation, that is powerful. But Dr. Tough's testimony also handed the defense significant material because her own records confirmed that Lindsay repeatedly told her across multiple sessions that she believed her prescribed medications were making her condition worse. Yes. A complaint that, according to the defense's theory, went unresolved right up until the night Lindsay killed her children.

[Lauren]

So she's not feeling better and she's telling her doctor that things are getting worse.

[Chandler]

Exactly.

[Lauren]

Exactly. Okay.

[Chandler]

So two additional forensic psychiatrists are called who also testify that Lindsay appeared clear headed and rational in the days immediately following the killings. And taken together, the, the through line of all this is consistent. Doctor after doctor across a span running from three weeks before the killings to weeks after, described a patient who is anxious, depressed, occasionally described as numb but not delusional, not hallucinating, and not disconnected from reality in the way that a genuine active psychotic episode would typically present. So the defense's counter argument, which obviously comes through cross examination because they're not putting on their own witnesses yet, has been to attack the rigor and completeness of the clinical picture. So they highlight gaps in screening, missing historical records, treating physicians with limited specific experience and postpartum and psychiatric emergencies, and a documented pattern of Lindsay herself raising concerns about her medications. So that is where we are at with the testimonies from these doctors.

[Lauren]

I want to add one thing here. You know, and this is just for people who have never seen a psychiatrist, but, you know, when you meet with your psychiatrist, they always ask you kind of the same questions. And a lot of times it's a very short session. I mean, I would hope that these sessions were not short because she was in such a bad state that it was like a longer session. But they kind of, you know, they're not necessarily always therapy. And in fact, a lot of times they're not therapy. They're really just checking in on your symptoms. And, and so that's just something I think about here with like, what they were able to gather and what they were able to just like, report. You know, it's a. It can at times be a very clinical, you know, 15 minute conversation that you, you feel like you're. They're just checking things off their list. Yeah.

[Chandler]

Because they're deciding if they should refill or adjust your medications. They're not there to ask you, you know, well, why does it make you feel that way generally?

[Lauren]

Exactly.

[Chandler]

That's for the psychologist.

[Lauren]

So I think we should just. Just pause here and talk about how an insanity defense works in the state of Massachusetts, you know, and also like a lot of states. So Massachusetts does not use the term insanity defense. The operative legal term is actually, quote, lack of criminal responsibility. And basically, you know, the idea here is that a defendant is not criminally responsible for conduct if at the time of the conduct, as a result of a mental disease or defect, they lacked substantial capacity to either appreciate the wrongfulness or criminality of their conduct or to conform their conduct to the requirements of the law. So basically, you know, like, they didn't have the mental capacity to comport themselves or to follow the law, obviously. So I think, I think that's interesting here, especially with this idea of it being psychosis. Like, how far does this psychosis go?

[Chandler]

How far does it go? And one thing that is, you know, for her defense, they have a much lower threshold that they need to prove because they can say she was in psychosis and they can say that she knew what she was doing was wrong, but was so controlled by the voices in her head. Whereas in other jurisdictions other than Massachusetts, Massachusetts, I guess has like, like has a very different framework than most jurisdictions. It's required that they not only prove that she was in psychosis, but also that she didn't know what she was doing was wrong. So the level of psychosis in most other places is. It's a much higher threshold to prove. And also the prosecution has to prove their case that she knew that she was doing was wrong beyond a reasonable doubt. So if there's any doubt for the defense, then she will be. Will she will be able to not get acquitted, but essentially not be found guilty and sent to a psychiatric facility.

[Lauren]

Also, I think we should acknowledge the fact that this is first degree murder that she's being charged with, which is premeditated.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Lauren]

It's not second degree.

[Chandler]

So I guess it really is acquitted of that. And then in that case, because she will be found not criminally responsible, she will be sent to a psychiatric facility but you know, this, that's definitely a situation where after, after she does okay for a certain period of time, she can 100 come back to living a.

[Lauren]

In society.

[Chandler]

You know, like, it's not like she has to remain there forever. And did you know she's actually been in the hospital since this. Yeah, she's been held and in hospital treatment since it happened. And this was three years ago. So.

[Lauren]

Yeah, I mean, she's also, you know, she's paralyzed. So she's had to, you know, she cannot walk, she cannot, you know, do a lot of things on her own anymore. And so I think she's had to like. Yeah, I'm sure she's had to radically relearn how to, you know, how to exist in her body.

[Chandler]

Yeah, no, absolutely.

[Lauren]

Okay.

[Chandler]

Because this case really comes down to whether or not she was experiencing postpartum psychosis really quickly. Let's just discuss postpartum. Postpartum psychosis itself. So it's a rare but severe psychiatric emergency. Clinical estimates place its incidence at roughly one to two cases per thousand births, making it far rarer than more commonly discussed postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety, or the baby blues. It typically has a rapid onset, often within the first days or weeks after childbirth. And its features can include a constellation of severe symptoms. Mania, manic like agitation, profound depression, disorganized thinking, hallucinations or delusions. You know, we should note that the killing happened, the killings happened eight months postpartum, not within the first couple months. So that is, that does not abide by these standards. Also, it's really important to note that postpartum psychosis, it's like the same degree of rarity.

[Lauren]

It's the same degree of rarity for,

[Chandler]

for if you experience it, that you end up, you know, committing infanticide. So most people who experience this do not kill their children. That's just important to, to, to understand. But it can, it is something that can escalate extremely quickly, sometimes within days. Because if you do experience this, you are profoundly detaching from reality and you know, you are at risk for self harm, for harming your children. So if you are experiencing this, it just is a very severe, acute problem. Okay. So I will be very interested to see, you know, how the defense puts on their case. I want to hear more about postpartum psychosis. What their evidence is that she was experiencing it, because again, as we've belabored, it was a very brief moment of postpartum psychosis and essentially, essentially a sea of lucidity. Right.

[Lauren]

She was Right.

[Chandler]

Lucid up until and that she's been lucid since. So I will be very interested to see the defenses psychological experts. Shopify is I think one of the most interesting brands because it's a B2B product but we all know what it is. And when I'm shopping online, I don't know about you. If the checkout is not Shopify, I simply don't want to continue the transaction. I don't want to put in all my information, deal with a new kind of user experience and interface. I just want Shopify where I can easily one click check out. Shopify handles the checkout experience from start to finish. They help more people like me complete the purchase and when they come back, their information is already saved with one tap. Removing that friction is so crucial for increasing revenue. I just can't tell you how much you need to use Shopify. If you have an e commerce website in 2026, it is the only way they give you the tools to manage inventory, marketing operations all in one place. Which is why millions of businesses, from well known names to those just beginning rely on Shopify. The focus stays on building rather than troubleshooting. With Shopify, nothing stands between your idea and a real business. So go make it one. Start your free trial at shopify.com apologists again that shopify.com apologists to start a free trial Today. I want to talk about Patrick Clancy though, because I think that Patrick Clancy has become such a lightning rod for people fascinated with this case.

[Lauren]

I think it's time we talk about Patrick as well because that's actually the first like little bit I heard about this case. I was talking to a friend and she was like, have you heard anything about this case? Like, you know, everyone, you know, started off thinking that it was the mom who did it and now so many people are saying that it's actually the husband. And that's what kind of like piqued my interest in about this because it seemed like, whoa, like what, what has come to light. So I think we should, let's, let's bring up some of the, you know, the interesting details here.

[Chandler]

Yeah, I think that people say he's all of a sudden made money from this, he had a GoFundMe, he's suing all these medical practitioners and they look at him and they look at the fact that he's now married, he has a kid on the way, he has completely moved on with his life. I heard someone say we'll never know if that relationship started before or after this happened. And he'd started dating this woman a year after the killings.

[Lauren]

Oh, I heard it was four months.

[Chandler]

No, it was not four months.

[Lauren]

He.

[Chandler]

He moved to New York about four months after this happened, but he didn't start dating her until a year after the killings. And then they, I believe, got married three years after the killings. So it's not like, it's not like.

[Lauren]

Well, that wouldn't make sense because the killings were in. Did they just get married this year? I guess.

[Chandler]

Yeah. So I believe they got married in April.

[Lauren]

Okay, okay. Okay, well, your math checks out, so

[Chandler]

I actually have it right here. Patrick moved to New York City about four months after the deaths and began dating Rachel approximately 13 months after them. They moved in together roughly two years after this happened and married three years and three months after. Okay. I do think that you have a horrific thing like this happen to you. I don't think it's completely unreasonable to just try to start moving on with your life a year later.

[Lauren]

Oh, I don't think this is why people think that he did it, cuz he like, moved on. I think that's one thing that people like, like to like to bring up. But there's a couple other things that people talk.

[Chandler]

Okay, what else?

[Lauren]

There's surveillance imagery of him in, you know, running his errands and it looks like he's changed his shoes.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Lauren]

This is one point not saying I agree with that because I don't necessarily think that's, you know, super damning. The other point is that Lindsay's body temperature was roughly 82 degrees, and that just is extremely low given how like, little time she was actually outside. Like, that's lower, I believe, than John o' Keefe's body was when he was found.

[Chandler]

Okay.

[Lauren]

So that's one thing. Like, I am bringing these points to you just to just tell you what the Internet chatter is saying. I do not. I. To me, like, this is what we talked about even before we hopped on to record.

[Chandler]

Yeah.

[Lauren]

Like, I don't, I don't think Patrick did this, but a lot of people do. Yeah.

[Chandler]

And this is where I, I kind of wonder about misinformation because part of me wonders if this is just like Reddit chatter that's just completely like not even close to reality because it's so hard for me to imagine that he did it. He pushes her out the window and then, you know, her body is way colder than it should be and the forensic team on the scene just like, like, doesn't even. I mean, if you're. Please write in comment, let us know what you think. Like, you think that they just didn't catch it? Like the children were deceased for much longer than they realized and they didn't catch that. I just think that they like, they, they know how to time things so well.

[Lauren]

Well, yeah, I mean, people also think that. I'm not saying it makes sense. Yeah, I agree with you. It doesn't. I don't think any of these data points are like, or honestly that confounding.

[Chandler]

Okay, so let's just say that he was able to do this, right? He somehow, he committed these horrific crimes. He. He kills his children. He pushes Lindsay out the window and then he like, then he goes for his alibi shots at CVS or the two different stores. Why is change. Why does changing the shoes matter?

[Lauren]

I don't know. No, I agree.

[Chandler]

It's completely irrelevant. Like, why help his case?

[Lauren]

Yes, I think, I don't know. I have not honestly gone down this rabbit hole far enough because I'm not that convinced.

[Chandler]

I think the only way that that would make sense is so much like, that's old footage. So it's like he also has like cvs. Like CVS is in on this with him.

[Lauren]

Well, I think, I don't know, potentially. I mean, people, people literally said that they think the new girlfriend was the one who called CVS to ask about the like, because, because Lindsay placed a call to CVS asking about if they had a certain medication in stock. And people, Yeah, I mean, people think that he took her Apple watch with him so he could answer the call from her. I don't. Yeah.

[Chandler]

And then he's also an Oscar worthy actor. If you, you know, I guess if you hear this 911 call because he is so upset. Like, that is also.

[Lauren]

Let's also just not, you know, forget the fact that Lindsay is very much so still here with us. And if, if Patrick coerced her into doing something or if there was or if he did this, don't you think that her defense attorneys would have like, I don't know, maybe they're going to bring that up. I just, it's not even a part of the conversation.

[Chandler]

I think Lindsay would bring it up. I think Lindsay would say, no, I know my husband pushed me out the window. Where are my children? I think she would, she, when the, you know, when she's waking up and can't feel her legs anymore, she would say, you know, is Patrick arrested?

[Lauren]

He, yeah, he puts, I mean, if

[Chandler]

she drinks and I woke up on the ground, where are my children? Like, she admits to this. Why? What. Sorry, I have to belabor this. What would be her motive for admitting to it?

[Lauren]

Right. That's like, somehow she is actually. She is actually deserving of the Oscar because she's like, kept this scheme up and. Yeah, I mean, no, I don't. There isn't. It doesn't make any sense.

[Chandler]

She's trying to obviously not go to prison for the rest of her life.

[Lauren]

I think that we are just kind of living in this true crime Internet sleuth world. I mean, also, we're in Massachusetts. We're in like, Karen Reed territory.

[Chandler]

We're.

[Lauren]

That case was like, stranger than truth is stranger than fiction or whatever. Like, you and I, you know, I just think that a lot of people want to sort of find the crazier story here or like. Or they want somebody to truly blame. Who? I don't know. It's just like, otherwise, is it too tragic?

[Chandler]

So in the wedding group chat, I'm in where now we were talking about, like, okay, cocktail hour starts at this time. You know, this is the attire. And now all of a sudden it's all about this case. There was someone super adamant that the husband did it. And I, you know, I brought up all my points and they're like, well, I actually don't know that much about it. I've read about it for like two minutes. So I need to look into it more. And I just think people hear, husband has a new wife, husband made money from this, and they're like, it's a juicier story.

[Lauren]

I'm going to make a generalization right now. I just think men have to just, like, find a new wife and like, mentally move on in a way that women don't like. They have to just be like, okay, here's my new life. Here's a. Here's like a new person. I just find that they're, like, way more, like, compartmentalizing than women can be.

[Chandler]

I also think that men a, have an easier time dating, especially, like, later in life. And I think that also they are less picky. Like, it's. Yeah, it's a combo of the two.

[Lauren]

She looks a lot like Lindsay, for what it's called.

[Chandler]

She looks so, I mean, she's, She's. She's lovely and I. She's very, like, esteemed. I think she's an obgyn, Something like that.

[Lauren]

Yeah, I think she's an obgyn. I think I heard that.

[Chandler]

Anyway, she's very esteemed. She looks very much like Lindsay, which is kind of eerie. But I. I think it's. It's okay. Like, this man, in my opinion, came home to his. All his three children dead. So I do believe that it's okay for him to move on. And I think that it's. I think that jumping to this conclusion and just, like, getting in the comments and spouting it, I think it just speaks to the way that we don't see people on the Internet as real people a lot of the time. Like, we can just so easily sound off about things that are actually, like, profoundly hurtful. And I. You know, I haven't.

[Lauren]

I will.

[Chandler]

I'm. It's a little pot, kettle, because, you know, I certainly have theories about plenty of people, I would say. But it's a good reminder. Yeah.

[Lauren]

Yeah. I mean, I. I think that what we're dealing with here is a really tragic story of, like, the system failing Lindsay, and just. Of a. Just a tragedy. We're like. I don't think the doctors, you know, we're trying to.

[Chandler]

You think she was in psychosis?

[Lauren]

Oh, I. This is where it's like, I don't know by the law's definition. Like, I think that she believed that the voices in her head were telling her she needed to do this. This.

[Chandler]

Okay.

[Lauren]

That's what I believe that she believed the voices in her head. Okay. Whether or not the voices in her head were so strong that she didn't think she was committing a crime. I don't know. Like, that's where it gets very. Like, it gets just, like, way in the weeds of, like, I don't know. Like, do you know what I'm saying? Like, it just gets a little too meta. So that's what I believe. But I think that, like, that is maybe just like. Like, too hard for people to grapple with, because she's not. To me, she's not 100 evil.

[Chandler]

No, definitely not. And I think that when you hear the nanny's testimony, you hear what a wonderful, like, wife she was or a mother, and she was so concerned for the children. I go back and forth because to me, it doesn't make sense that she was always so lucid, except for this 25 minutes. But then it doesn't make sense that if you're planning on, you know, this, doing this, you're also, that morning, taking your daughter to the doctor and building snowmans and sending photos. I understand the argument that sometimes when people decide to kill themselves, it's. They seem to be in a better mood before because they've, like, made this plan. They made peace with It. People say that. I've heard that on several podcasts about this case, but I just, I, I personally don't. I just don't buy it. So I, I really. I actually just don't know. I go back.

[Lauren]

Yeah, no, I, I, I don't.

[Chandler]

Yeah, I don't.

[Lauren]

I don't fully obviously know either. I just think people want a 100 evil person to blame because that's easier for your mind to deal with.

[Chandler]

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's easier for your mind to deal with. And it's easier to. To say, this will never happen to me.

[Lauren]

Yes.

[Chandler]

Okay. I want to talk to you guys about something really quick. So of course we are going to keep up with this case. We will eventually do another installment or at least talk about the verdict. But please, everyone, let us know what you think. I'm really hear what everyone thinks about this because again, like I've said, I go back and forth, so I'll be interested to read everyone's comments.

[Lauren]

Yes. And if there are details that, that you know of that, you know, somehow we didn't see. Like, I want, I don't know. I just, I want to know why the Internet is so caught up in Patrick right now.

[Chandler]

Tell us if we've gotten something wrong because it's obviously a lot of material, and so, you know, we, of course, are not completely flawless, as much as it may look that way.

[Lauren]

Certainly doesn't look that way.

[Chandler]

No, definitely.

[Lauren]

But on another note, we want to talk about one thing with the show really quick.

[Chandler]

Yes. We have an administrative note, so I've been diving into the analytics. I used to really look at the numbers all the time, and I stopped doing that because I just felt like it was mentally healthier for me to not be constantly on the back end of the show and seeing what episodes, whatever.

[Lauren]

Yeah, just. Just a little too much feedback. From the numbers.

[Chandler]

Exactly.

[Lauren]

From the computers.

[Chandler]

So it's honestly been over a year since I looked at them, and it was really exciting because I looked at them and literally, Chandler, our show has grown so much. It's actually so incredible and surprising to me how much it has grown and how many people are listening. I feel so blessed and thankful, and I want to say I want to hear from you guys because I think that we have a very active DM community. Lots of people write us in the dms, but our comment section is like, kind of ghost townie. And I want to hear from you guys, like, where are you listening? Let us know what you thought of the, of this case. We're gonna Be more active in the comments, chatting and to kind of celebrate like how well the show is doing, we're going to be picking 3 comments per week. Whether it's on Spotify, whether it's on, you know, on YouTube under the episode, or whether it's on one of our reels. We're gonna be picking three commenters a week to give a hundred dollar Visa gift card to just to say thank you and to celebrate this, this little show that could eventually plus 1 million

[Lauren]

to everything Lauren said. That's something we used to say in corporate America.

[Chandler]

Lauren really used to say plus 1 million.

[Lauren]

No, no. Plus, plus plus 1 or plus 100. Whatever. Anyway, not important. But I agree with everything you said also a lot of times I think the comments that do show up are from people who are mad at us because we don't know what we're saying about Tom Brady or they think we don't know what we're talking about. So I like, yeah, it can be just from strangers on the Internet. And honestly, sometimes the strangers are right, sometimes the strangers are wrong. It's fine, we're okay. But I just also love hearing from our, our audience, our people. Yeah, yeah.

[Chandler]

So find us in the comments after this episode if you want to continue the conversation.

[Lauren]

We're going to be like Lala says, like we're living in the comment section.

[Chandler]

We're going to be living in the comments for a minute. Okay. And I just want to say thank you as well to people who are leaving us positive reviews. It has been such a treat to read all of your reviews. A recent fun one from Jay Sinclair says, a breath of fresh air. I just discovered the show and I love the vibe. As someone who is kind of out of the loom of pop culture, the show gives me the overview I need without all the fluff. We're fluff free, Chandler. Also, the hosts are just fun and hilarious. Lauren especially is gorgeous and everything that,

[Lauren]

you know, I'm like, I'm not saying that on my side of things. I want to, I want to give a shout out to Sarah MT5 who called us historians. So I think we can actually now add that to our LinkedIn. She said, Historians adore this eloquent, witty and gorgeous pair of sisters. I mean, actually she did say we were gorgeous. That's, that's very, very nice. She says their pop culture commentary helps me appear to be up to date when chatting with my girlfriends. They put their shoulders to the wheel for their listeners. Their show is thoughtful, non toxic and hilarious. Okay, that is really, really nice. Because I don't know, we do, we do put our shoulder to the wheel and we try to be non toxic.

[Chandler]

We absolutely do. And you know what? I just want to say it's a lot more enjoyable to put our shoulders to the wheel on this podcast than it was to do so when we were doing the trek, you know, in, in Utah.

[Lauren]

Our religious upbringing.

[Chandler]

Yes, that's a deep cut for anyone who grew up Mormon as well. Although we are not practicing anymore. But only feel love.

[Lauren]

No, it's just, it's a. That is the truth. That is how we do.

[Chandler]

It's a succinct way of describing what has occurred.

[Lauren]

Yes, agreed.

[Chandler]

Okay. What else that. That, I mean, I think that concludes our show. You guys. Premium this week. I have so much to say about House of Stossi. I literally, I only slept for three hours after I finished the season. Three hours that night. I have so much to say. So I cannot wait to discuss the finale with Chandler on Premium. This week we are going to just be chatting all the Hollywood goss and tea.

[Lauren]

It feels so corny saying, yeah, I actually just disassociated

[Chandler]

you guys. If you want to be a global elite, there's never been a better time ever, ever. You don't have to book a flight to Davos. You can just sign up for $9.99 a month and you get an extra episode of these two charming, witty, hilarious

[Lauren]

Sisters hosts, Sister Ho Blonde Hoes and Sisters Blonde Hoes.

[Chandler]

That's for sure. Every Friday. So we will be back on Friday for our global elites. But to all apostles near and wide, all corners of the Earth, we love you so much. Bye.

[Lauren]

We love you. Bye. At first, I didn't think it was real. I woke up to this blinding light. I was transported to another place. Pluto tv. Then I heard a voice.

[Chandler]

Come with me if you want to live.

[Lauren]

There were thousands of movies and shows and they were all free. Truth, isn't it?

[Chandler]

It's just so beautiful.

[Lauren]

On Pluto TV, free streaming of Terminator 2, Fringe, Arrow, the 100 and the

[Chandler]

X Files may cause excitement, loss of sleep, and sudden belief in extraterrestrials. No credit cards or alien encounters necessary.

[Lauren]

Pluto TV Stream now pay Never.

[Chandler]

Hi, I'm Stassi Schroeder. On my podcast, I share candid updates from my personal life, chat with some of my best friends about what's going on in our lives, give commentary on the latest pop culture headlines, and sometimes deep dive into random topics. I'm obsessed with, like, human design. It's a bit all over the place, but that's how I like it and you will too. Listen to my podcast Dossi wherever you get your podcasts. As summer fades, most people start shifting back into regular routines with earlier mornings and fuller calendars. Getting dressed can feel like one more decision, so having a simple system really helps. Macy's makes that transition smoother by focusing on staples that make for an easy formula. Start with the pieces you already reach for, like a favorite pair of jeans

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Then add one element of personality like strappy animal print flats or a great bag. This keeps the look effortless without requiring extra thought. For the in between, weather layers become essential. A light sweater or leather jacket can go on or off as temperatures shift throughout the day. Accessories take the outfit even further. A slim shoulder bag, a pair of statement earrings or a few layered necklaces can turn a simple combination into something more polished for busy days. And don't forget free Macy's stylists are here to help. Pop into your local Macy's for free access to personal stylists who can help curate a look. Shop the Back to Routine Styles in store or online at macyeds. Com.