28 Years Later And What's Making Us Happy

Summary

Pop Culture Happy Hour - Episode: "28 Years Later And What's Making Us Happy"

Release Date: June 20, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour, host Glenn Weldon delves into the much-anticipated apocalyptic horror film "28 Years Later." Joined by NPR Producer Mark Rivers and Jordan Cruciola, the trio explores the film's narrative, thematic depth, and its standing within the evolving zombie genre.

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"28 Years Later" Overview

Mark Rivers kicks off the discussion by providing a comprehensive synopsis of "28 Years Later," the sequel to the 2002 cult classic "28 Days Later." The film, directed by Danny Boyle and written by Alex Garland, is set nearly three decades post-outbreak. It introduces a world where the infected have evolved, presenting new threats and complexities.

"In that movie, a deadly virus transformed the citizens of England into rabid, blood-spewing creatures... The new film picks up almost three decades later..."
— Mark Rivers [00:20]

The film stars Jodie Comer, Aaron Taylor Johnson, and Ralph Fiennes, and follows the journey of Jamie (Johnson) and his young son Spike (Alfie Williams) as they navigate a perilous expedition to the mainland in search of a cure for Spike's mother's illness.

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Initial Impressions: Jordan Cruciola

Jordan Cruciola shares her enthusiasm and initial expectations upon viewing the film:

"This first trailer that they put out for this was so incredibly good that I was like, this better be the movie of the year..."
— Jordan Cruciola [02:19]

She was emotionally invested, experiencing moments of stress and even crying during the film, highlighting its powerful impact.

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Diverging Opinions on Execution

Despite the high praise for the trailer, Jordan expresses mixed feelings about the film's execution:

"I did not have fun with this movie. I cried at multiple instances. Oh, wow. I was stressed out for the entire duration."
— Jordan Cruciola [03:06]

Mark acknowledges the film's auteur and indie qualities but points out structural disjointedness and inconsistent threat levels that diminish its horror effectiveness:

"The threat level felt like it was pretty arbitrary. It was sliding around from scene to scene, moment to moment."
— Mark Rivers [05:00]

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Cinematic Techniques and Storytelling

The conversation shifts to the film's technical aspects. Jordan criticizes the use of various cinematic devices that disrupt immersion:

"It was a punch in the face. It was erratic and destabilizing in a way."
— Jordan Cruciola [06:46]

Mark appreciates the film's referential visuals and lyrical moments but feels these elements contribute to a disjointed narrative structure.

"There are visual callbacks to films like Night of the Hunter again and again... the act breaks are so clearly distinct from one another."
— Mark Rivers [05:00]

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Character Dynamics: Father and Son

A focal point of the discussion is the father-son relationship between Jamie and Spike. Mark lauds Alfie Williams' performance and the depth it brings to the narrative:

"The son in this film realizes that his father starts playing fast and loose with the truth."
— Mark Rivers [09:39]

Conversely, Jordan expresses reservations about Spike's character development, feeling it lacked conviction.

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Jodie Comer’s Performance and Thematic Depth

Jordan highlights Jodie Comer's portrayal of Isla, emphasizing the emotional layers she adds:

"The role that Isla assumes as Caretaker and the way that her mind is fracturing... really liked the two of them together."
— Jordan Cruciola [10:13]

This dynamic deepens the film's exploration of familial bonds amidst chaos.

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Trilogy Setup and Narrative Closure

Mark critiques the film's ending, which serves as an epilogue for a planned trilogy, leaving the story open-ended:

"It feels like a cliffhanger before the next episode in a series. It cuts off in the middle of a chapter."
— Mark Rivers [12:04]

Jordan concurs, expressing that the film struggles to stand alone without relying on future installments:

"I think they have selectively drilled down on little bits because you want to blow out the world wider over the course of a three film project."
— Jordan Cruciola [13:04]

This setup, while ambitious, leaves some feeling unsatisfied with the current installment's closure.

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Evolution of the Zombie Genre

Jordan reflects on the film's release within the context of contemporary zombie narratives:

"Zombie content was pretty dormant... it revolutionized that kind of material through the speedy feral zombies and really kickstarted this kind of renaissance we've had."
— Jordan Cruciola [14:37]

She discusses the pressure on creators like Boyle and Garland to innovate within a saturated market, leading to the film's busier yet potentially overcomplicated approach.

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Conclusion of Main Discussion

As the conversation wraps, Mark acknowledges the film's distinctiveness despite differing opinions:

"I think we should give it props for being more idiosyncratic and distinctive."
— Mark Rivers [16:44]

Both hosts recognize the film's strengths and shortcomings, providing a nuanced perspective on its place in modern cinema.

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What is Making Us Happy This Week

Glenn Weldon transitions to the beloved segment, "What is Making Us Happy This Week," where guests share their current sources of joy.

Jordan Cruciola: A Nostalgic Return to "The L Word: Original Recipe"

Jordan expresses delight in revisiting the original incarnation of "The L Word," celebrating its role as a groundbreaking queer series:

"This is so cheesy. It is so ham-fisted and over the top and it is an absolute delight."
— Jordan Cruciola [18:52]

She recommends streaming it on Paramount Plus, emphasizing its cultural significance and nostalgic value.

Mark Rivers: The Criterion Channel’s Vietnam War Series

Mark shares his appreciation for a curated series on the Criterion Channel commemorating the Vietnam War's 50th anniversary:

"One of them that I watched that really blew me away was 1976's The Little Girl of Hanoi."
— Mark Rivers [20:16]

He highlights the film's tender portrayal of war-torn Hanoi through a child's perspective, offering a refreshing alternative to mainstream war narratives.

Mark Rivers: "Top Chef" Season Finale

Additionally, Mark praises the latest season of "Top Chef," particularly the finale set in Milan, lauding its balance between culinary artistry and meaningful social commentary:

"Tristan Epps... noticed something about the painting The Last Supper."
— Mark Rivers [20:27]

He commends the finale for addressing racial representation in fine dining, available on Peacock.

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Closing Remarks

The episode concludes with gratitude towards guests and production team, while teasing future discussions.

"Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Glenn Weldon and we'll see you all next week."
— Glenn Weldon [23:27]

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Transcript

[Glenn Weldon]

This message comes from Discover, accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. If you don't think so, maybe it's time to face facts. You're stuck in the past. Based on the February 2024 Nielsen report, [e-mail] credit card.

[Mark Rivers]

The new apocalyptic horror film 28 Years later takes place in the same world as the 2002 film 28 Days Later. In that movie, a deadly virus transformed the citizens of England into into rabid, blood spewing creatures with really impressive lung capacity. Seriously, those zombies were just as good at wind sprints as they were at cross country. The new film picks up almost three decades later on a small island connected to the mainland by a causeway, where a group of survivors eke out a modest existence. A desperate expedition to the mainland reveals new allies and new horrors because the infected have evolved. The film stars Jodie Comer, Aaron Taylor Johnson, and Ralph Fiennes. Oliver I am Glenn Weldon, and today we're talking about 28 years later on Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. Joining me today is NPR producer Mark Rivers. Hey, Mark.

[Jordan Cruciola]

Hey, Glenn. Good to see you.

[Mark Rivers]

Good to see you. Also with us is Jordan Cruciola. She's a writer and producer and the host of the podcast Feeling Seen on Maximum Fun. Hey, Jordan.

[Jordan Cruciola]

Hello. Thank you so much for having me again.

[Mark Rivers]

Of course. Who else but you? In 28 years later, we learn that the world has abandoned the UK and left it to the infected. On an island off the mainland, a group of survivalists managed to get by. There's Jamie, played by Aaron Taylor Johnson, who sets off with young son Spike on an expedition to the mainland. Spike is played by Alfie Williams. The expedition is a rite of passage in which Spike must kill his first infected. Meanwhile, back home, Jamie's wife and Spike's mother, Isla, is slowly dying of an illness that's beyond the humble medicine of their community. That's Jody Comer. Ultimately, Spike will decide that the cure for his mother's condition lies on the mainland, which is now crawling with the familiar infected from the previous films, alongside a slew of new varies variants, including some that seem to possess intelligence. 28 years later is once again directed by Danny Boyle and written by Alex Garland, as was the original film, 2002's 28 Days Later. It's in theaters now. Jordan, this sounds like your wheelhouse. What'd you think?

[Jordan Cruciola]

Big time in my wheelhouse. And I don't normally succumb to expectation. I just want to like everything. And I'm like, hey, you know It'll be what it'll be. Let's be hopeful. But this first trailer that they put out for this was so incredibly good that I was like, this better be the movie of the year. Like, I'm actually gonna be let down if this isn't so good that I'm blown away. And it turned out the movie was actually a little bit different from, I think, where I thought it would be compared to that absolutely searing trailer. And yet still I had an absolutely fantastic time. I cried at multiple instances. Oh, wow. I was stressed out for the entire dur. Highly recommending. 28 years later.

I think I was fessed up for the wrong reasons.

[Mark Rivers]

Jordyn, say more.

[Jordan Cruciola]

Well, I'm glad you weren't sitting there having a nothing experience and that you were at least stressed out.

It was visceral. Yeah. Jordan, that trailer was also the trailer of the year for me.

Oh, my God. It might be the best trailer I've ever seen.

A great trailer. I went from having no expectations for this movie to having very high expectations. And I gotta tell you, I did not have fun with this movie. Okay, yeah.

[Mark Rivers]

What's the disconnect here? What's going on?

[Jordan Cruciola]

Thinking about that first movie, 28 Days Later, I think you can make a difference between movies that don't want you to relax and movies where they themselves don't seem to be able to relax. And I think 28 years later is the latter. Looking back at that first movie from 2002, there was this careful balancing of calm and frenzy, you know, but both things were able to draw you in. And I think the movie was confident enough to kind of let the world, for the most part, speak for itself and draw you in with these sympathetic characters. And also this kind of great world building and the movie kind of let you come to it. And I think with 28 years later, it felt like the movie was throwing itself at you. Using different devices both visually and on the soundtrack, as if to say, notice me. Notice me. These weird whip pans and freeze frames, infrared scenes. There's a use of an incredibly haunting poem by Rudyard Kipling in the trailer. They use it in the movie as well. But I'm thinking to myself, why are they using it? What message is it trying to deliver with this poem that was also kind of made kind of part of the British Imperial project? You know, I think just the many devices, it just took me out. Also, just at the start, I have a barrier of entry for Aaron Taylor Johnson movies.

This guy is so polarizing, and that blows me Away. I love him.

I cannot stand him, Jordan.

All right.

I just do not buy him. I always catch him acting this movie. It's many devices and it just. It took me out of it. I never felt like I was settling into what it was doing or trying to say. It was always pissing me out.

[Mark Rivers]

I'm gonna split the difference, as I often do. I think this is clearly a return to the more I don't wanna say auteur, the more indie, idiosyncratic vibe of the first film. There are elements of this film, moments of this film which are downright lyrical, which I did not expect. This film is explicitly cinematic, which sounds like a stupid thing to say about a movie, but I mean, that it is referential. Right? There are visual callbacks to films like Night of the Hunter again and again. And we actually see, as you mentioned, scenes from British medieval war and what seems to be newsreel footage. I mostly dug it. It does feel. Because of elements like that and because the act breaks are so clearly distinct from one another, this film felt a little disjointed structurally. While I really kind of liked it as a film, I found it not to be particularly effective as horror. Because the thing, arguably the most important thing about a horror film for it to accomplish its goal as a horror film is for us to never be unaware of the threat level. Right? To always know what. What threat is facing our characters at any given moment. That threat level felt like it was pretty arbitrary. And it was sliding around from scene to scene, moment to moment. I just want to get your reaction to that.

[Jordan Cruciola]

Yeah, I think. Or thinking back to that first movie's kind of balancing of calm and frenzy, the frenziness, or kind of, or kind of the action sequences in this movie felt kind of unmotivated. Like, one minute it would just happen, the next minute nothing's happening. And I think those interstitial kind of moments that you're talking about also kind of wrenched me out of the kind of momentum they were kind of building. You never knew when something was gonna pop off. You never knew when the infected would show up. That didn't feel like a kind of suspenseful device. It felt like the screenwriters almost didn't have a control of the story in a way. You know, it felt a little haphazard, almost. Almost scatterbrained, even, for me.

I hear everything factually that you are saying, Mark, as like, with the technical aspects, because it kind of front loads you with those technical aspects. I feel like, in terms of, like, the tricks of the Camera too. Like, it's sort of like coming at you a little hard. I love that characterization of the movie is like throwing at selfie. I complet movie threw itself at me. It was a punch in the face. It was erratic and destabilizing in a way that I did feel by the end. The cohesive picture of it did work for me and where I was kind of like, oh, am I going to want that like 2 take angle on an execution of an infected every time that it happens in this movie? No, I don't. And it didn't do that every time. So I was like, okay, we're going to show off a little bit up front. We're going to establish a new visual signature with this movie compared to the other two. But oh man, the highs of this movie were as high for me as what was achieved in the best moments of the first one, which really re established the zombie format as something that we wanted to keep making and see again. And of course, the sprinting zombie, that whole Alpha rundown of Aaron Taylor Johnson and Alfie Williams, the main father and son in this movie where they are like on the approach back to the Ford and this thing is coming after them. I thought I was going to shoot out of my chair like a rocket. Like, I was so dialed up. And there was something too about like what you said about like the very punctuated moments of sort of violence and attack compared to like these kind of troughs of calm where it's like, wait, is the world normal again? That really worked for me as a kind of. I found it to be a kind of rhythmic balance and it also allowed for like, this movie definitely made me emotional in the way that the previous two didn't quite get me in this exact way where I was like weeping at pathos in my chair. And I will say, Aaron Taylor Johnson, fantastic. One of the best guys you don't want to root for. Rarely have I seen a movie where there was such quick karmic turnaround for a guy who's like a crappy dad and husband and then he like has to take the punishment for his actions as his son goes off on a sojourno. Will not get in any further detail on that. But yeah, I wouldn't even be like, oh, no, you're wrong, Mark. These things weren't happening. I'd be like, no, you're totally right. But it actually just happened to sync up with my frequency. I think.

Jordan, that Chase you're mentioning, I was rooting for the Alpha. I wanted him to Chase them both. That and take them out.

I think that's part of the really great thing about this movie is it kind of felt like at any given time the zombies were gonna win. I was like, dude, halfway through this movie, this could just be a bloodbath and everybody we care about could already be gone. The stakes felt so legitimately high. I thought the Alpha might get one or both of them in that chase down. And I was ready to be like, how am I gonna cope with this for the rest of the movie?

[Mark Rivers]

All right, well, you both mentioned this father son dynamic. Let's talk about that. Because the thing about this movie is it goes away. I liked that dynamic. I have reservations about Aaron Taylor, John, but, man, I don't have any reservations about Alfie Williams. That kid so good in this, but.

[Jordan Cruciola]

I gotta zag again. Okay, man, I thought his performance. I was not fully convinced.

[Mark Rivers]

All right, well, I'm gonna disagree with you there. I mean, I think this kid Alfie Williams is pretty great. I mean, he's very expressive and, you know, so much of this film is riding on his back. I disagree. The son in this film realizes that his father starts playing fast and loose with the truth. And he's doing that for a good reason, because he loves his son. He's trying to heap glory on his son, but that makes the son wonder what else he's not being truthful about. That is rich. That is chewy. As soon as we lose that dynamic, the film really thins out for me.

[Jordan Cruciola]

I'm a huge fan of Jodie Comer. She was more of this movie than I expected her to be. And the nature of her character was really different that I had even minorly anticipated. And so the chance to see her really kind of dig deep and do something upsetting and, oh, God, I don't want to use too many descriptors that would lead people down a path. But the role that he assumes of Caretaker and the way that she perceives him and the way that her mind is sort of fracturing in this panicked post apocalyptic landscape. I really liked the two of them together. For me, the father hung over it still of like, I was thinking about him the entire time and being like, guess we shouldn't have been such a POS previously. And then you wouldn't be in this situation, would you? The first part of it, where does the father and son together, like that was super rich and I was enjoying what was giving me on screen, but I felt like the transition to the him and mom thing with the very comic relief soldier that they happen upon was a satisfying jump for me.

[Mark Rivers]

I do want to give a shout out to Edvin Riding, who plays a Swedish soldier who we meet briefly. Much needed moments of humor. That guy is the ultimate voice of reason. He has radical practicality. He is the only one who's making any damn sense in that railroad car. But I do also want to get to this ending, and we're going to do this advisedly. But the thing that contributes to the disjointed quality of this film and the reason it ended up being not feeling satisfying to me, is because this film does not work unless you think of it as the beginning of a trilogy. Now, a trilogy is planned. It's not necessarily gonna happen. We'll wait and see. They have filmed two movies back to back. The next one currently has a January 2026 release date. So just in a few months, they're gonna wait and see how this first film does to see if they actually end the trilogy. They're calling the final sequence of this film an epilogue.

[Jordan Cruciola]

It felt like a cliffhanger before the next episode in a series.

[Mark Rivers]

Almost exactly. It cuts off in the middle of a chapter. Like it's not the end of a chapter. And then the beginning. It cuts off in the middle of a chapter. And that isn't satisfying. Do you agree?

[Jordan Cruciola]

Yeah. It felt like. I think this is a problem that's plaguing a lot of movies lately. You can maybe call it the kind of marvelization of moviemaking where I think we're having more trouble or filmmakers are having more trouble making movies that can just stand up on their own. I think about some of the things that this movie is trying to set up. Sort of tribalism that happens in extreme circumstances. The opening scene kind of hints at a religious fanaticism that might come up under extreme circumstances. What kind of community functions under extreme circumstances? How does one change their sense of being or change their belief system? And it's kind of gesturing at all these things. But for me, they felt like gestures. They felt like seeds being planted for another installment, for a trilogy. It didn't feel like it could just stand up on its own. If I brought someone into this movie who had not seen any of the other films, I feel like they would be lost.

My jaw collapsed down to the ground.

Mine too.

Wildly entertained. I think I had surrendered myself to those, like, experimental sort of tricks at the beginning of the movie and sort of dotted throughout to where I had given myself over to this movie, taking me on journeys that I was like, okay, I'M gonna follow it on this and then we journey once again at the end. And that for me, I had again surrendered by that point. And what it was giving me in isolation was so much further my thing that I was super hyped for what was happen for me, it works as a standalone. I can only say that because I've seen the other, having known that I've seen the other two. So, like, would it really stand alone for me? I couldn't say that. I guess in a vacuum. I appreciate more a planned trilogy than a reactive trilogy because okay, fine, if we're going to do this thing at the end, you're telling me that you're doing with the intention of planting this for a complete thing you already have finished and you have a third vision in mind. So you have selectively drilled down on little bits because you want to blow out the world wider over the course of a three film project. That worked for me, but I again, this is again, it's one of those things where I could hardly argue to somebody why they would be incorrect and misassest the feel of this film. Especially when we're so steeped in that as a practice in the industry today. There is certainly a more threadbare ask that you're making of people to be like, go with me on this and trust this, like, extension IP extension. We're marinating that lot right now and not in necessarily the most fun.

I think it's worth parsing out the kind of world, movie, TV, pop culture world that 28 years later is coming out in comparison to 28 days later, when 28 days later came out, zombie IP, if you will. Zombie content was pretty dormant.

Yeah, it was tired.

Yeah, it was tired. And it kind of revolutionized that kind of material through the, you know, the speedy feral zombies and really kickstarted this kind of renaissance we've had. And 28 years later, it's coming out in this, you know, post Zack Snyder, post Walking Dead, post Last of Us World. And I think there's a pressure on folks like Denny Boyle and Alex Garland as far as what new can I bring to this material? And I think the answer is the sort of busyness that we get from this movie where it's like, we're gonna throw a lot of ideas at you, throw it through different kind of mediums and in different ways. You're gonna use iPhones to shoot this. Just kind of like in the lineage of 28 days later, when the first one was kind of shot on, like, grimy. They're kind of upping the technological ante here. They're trying to give you a lot. I do not regret the pressure that it takes to kind of make a movie like this in a world of Walking Dead in the Last of Us. But I think that busyness, I think it gets away from them. I would not be surprised if a number of people are not willing to go on this adventure with them just because of the way it ends and the way that feels just so kind of out of left field almost.

It's a big choice.

It is a choice. I feel some may not be willing to follow this choice or agree with this choice.

[Mark Rivers]

Yeah. Although, Mark, you know, as we're talking about it, I think I'm kind of coming around to this film more.

[Jordan Cruciola]

Oh no, I'm alone. Oh no, no. Who cares? I'm all alone.

[Mark Rivers]

As you point out, it does feel distinct from Walking Dead and the Last of Us in a way that, for example, 28 weeks later did not. 28 weeks later felt like the Hollywood Eyes sequel with a lot more ordinance and the Jeremy Renner of it all. This feels more, as I said, more idiosyncratic, more distinctive, and I think we should give it points for that. Well, I think we place ourselves at different parts along the spectrum of like to dislike. And I have inched a little bit closer to Team Jordan over the course of this conversation.

[Jordan Cruciola]

That's okay, I'll be the hater.

[Mark Rivers]

But that's me, right? That's me. Tell us what you think about 28 years later. Find us on Facebook at facebook.com PCHH and on [e-mail] NPRPopCulture we'll have a link in our episode description up next, what is making us happy this week?

[NPR Producer]

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[Glenn Weldon]

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[Mark Rivers]

For our favorite segment of this week and every week. What is making us happy this week? Jordan, what is making you happy this week?

[Jordan Cruciola]

What is making me happy this week is a Thr throwback that I did not expect to get into, but my wife is now watching as I did so the L Word Original incarnation, Original recipe from Showtime. If you've watched the show, I think you have forgotten just how much it covers in the first season. We've got a coming out story. We have got drug use. We have a lesbian identified. Man, this, this show always did the most. I can't stress enough what an incredible time capsule this is. To go back to the 2000s with the first most bawdy, most explicit, most lesbian program on television that Showtime had a hit with Queer as Folk and they were like, the ladies need theirs too. Obviously the American version of Queer as Folk coming off the British version of Queer as Folk. It is so cheesy. It is so ham fisted and over the top and it is an absolute delight. MOA is hooked. We've just passed Dinah Shore weekend. Yeah. Dig back into L Word if you have done so. Check it out if you haven't. Do not let Gen Q be your impression of the L Word. Respect your elders, your queer elders. Happy pride. The L Word Original Recipe.

[Mark Rivers]

All right, tell me where to find it.

[Jordan Cruciola]

This is a Showtime program. So this is all Paramount plus offering is where you can find this one.

[Mark Rivers]

Thank you very much. That's the L Word Original Recipe on Paramount. Mark, what is making you happy this week?

[Jordan Cruciola]

So what's making me happy this week is the Criterion Channel, specifically a series that they've curated on the Vietnam War. And this year is marking 50 years since the fall of Saigon. I feel like still America have trouble talking about this war and telling the truth about the way we waged this war. And what I love about this series is that you will find films like Platoon or Full Metal Jacket, but you also have movies from a number of Vietnamese filmmakers. And one of them that I watched that really blew me away was 1976 is the little Girl of Hanoi. And the film acts as this kind of document of war torn Hanoi. You know, you can see the bombed out buildings and streets and you expect a much meaner movie than what you get. But it's this really tender, poetic movie from the perspective of a child as he's kind of traversing war torn Hanoi looking for her father. And it just speaks to all the perspectives that we have yet to get about this conflict, all the perspectives that have been underseen. It really blew my mind. You could see watching this movie that the production was probably held together by duct tape, but they all revelatory. And for those who are looking for Vietnam war movies that are not Rambo or Avra Stone films. And if you do have the Criterion channel, I would strongly recommend the Little Girl of Hanoi and a number of other films on there. Worth a look as well.

[Mark Rivers]

All right, thank you very much, Mark. What is making me happy this week? The latest season of Top Chef recently wrapped up with a finale taking place in Milano. In a season that was really overstuffed with sweaty gimmicks, the finale was refreshingly simple and clean. They got plenty of time to cook and prep. They got help from the chefs that they wanted to get help from. They got a chance to show who they are, which is ostensibly the point of that show, which I think the season sometimes forgot. The most gimmicky aspect of the finale turned out to work in a really surprising way for me because the three finalists got a private viewing of Da Vinci's the Last Supper. And when I realized that's what was going on, I tensed up because that is such a an obvious corny, cheesy reality TV producer gimmick. The finale of Top Chef, the Last Supper. Right. But then Tristan Epps, who's one of the contestants who spent the entire season showing how his cuisine, which is Afro Caribbean cuisine, has a place at a fine dining table and have talked a lot about the way the culinary world, which of course is grounded in European culture, looks down on food of the African diaspora. He notices something about the painting the Last Supper. He notices that the only person depicted with dark skin is Judas. So that was a very cool way of just connecting the dots with centuries of prejudice that manifests in a bunch of different ways and how they continue to manifest in something as rarefied as the world of fine dining. I am not going to spoil who wins, but I will just say the right person wins, and it is hugely satisfying. That is the finale of season 22 of Top Chef on Peacock, and that is what's making happy this week. And if you want links for what we recommended, plus some more recommendations, sign up for our [e-mail] popculturenewsletter that brings us to the end of our show. Mark Rivers, Jordan Krushiela, thank you so much for being here.

[Jordan Cruciola]

Thank you for having me.

Thank you so much for having me. And I'm glad I won today.

[Mark Rivers]

This episode was produced by Hafsa Fathoma and Mike Katz, if you're not wrong, and edited by our showrunner Jessica Reedy. And hello Kamin provides our theme music. Thanks for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. I'm Glenn Weldon and and we'll see you all next week.

[Glenn Weldon]

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