J.C. Howard (2:52)

I'm here to run my insolent mouth.

Glen Weldon (2:54)

There we go. I wouldn't have it any other way. Also with us is Nikki Burch. She's a video producer for NPR Music and Visuals and also a co host of the podcast A Thousand Eyes and One. Hey Nikki.

Nikki Burch (3:04)

Good day to you sirs.

Glen Weldon (3:06)

Good day. So A Night of the Seven Kingdoms takes place entirely in one teeny tiny corner of the continent of Westeros where Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon are largely set. A young and very tall man named Dunk has spent his life squiring for a wandering knight who's just died. Dunk is played by Peter Claffey. He decides to enter a jousting tournament to prove a worthy knight, but he is hopelessly naive about the ruthless politics of the cruel world around him. Enter Egg, played by Dexter Sol Ansel. He's a bald headed kid who's eager to be dunked squire and seems to know a great deal about knights.

Nikki Burch (3:40)

Nerd.

Actor (Dunk) (3:42)

What's your name?

Glen Weldon (3:43)

Dunk, sir.

Actor (Dunk) (3:44)

Dunk. That's no name for a knight, is it? Short for Duncan?

Actor (Egg) (3:48)

Yes. Sir Duncan of Sir Duncan the Tall.

Actor (Dunk) (3:53)

Never heard of him.

Actor (Egg) (3:54)

Do you know every knight in the Seven Kingdoms, then?

Actor (Dunk) (3:56)

The good ones.

Glen Weldon (3:58)

Egg also knows a surprising lot about the ruling houses of Westeros, one of which the Targaryens, unexpectedly shows up to the tournament. And they're the same rich jerks they are on every other HBO show. Dunk knows he's no match for the skills of the rich and powerful knights he'll compete against, but he's got a lot of heart. Plus he's got Egg by his side. A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms is based on a series of novellas by George R.R. martin. It takes place after House of the Dragon, but before Game of Thrones. It is Air hbo. JC Winter is here, but it's kind of summer on the series. So what'd you think?

J.C. Howard (4:32)

First of all, let me just say I loved it. Unequivocally, with no reservation. And it starts with the novella like I really love the first novella. And generally speaking, you can always count on a Game of Thrones show to be a sweeping epic. You'll spend time in great halls with lords and ladies and soar with dragons and fight ice zombies. You know, like the stuff of legends. But a Knight of the Seven Kingdoms asks the exact right question, which is, what about the rest of Westeros?

Nikki Burch (4:59)

You know, what about the rest of them.

J.C. Howard (5:00)

Yeah. What happens when there's not a historic civil war going on? You know, what do the non royals do when they're not being terrorized by Joffrey or some other tyrant or being burned alive by dragons? And the thing that this series does is it answers the question, which is that they live, you know, they. They live lives that are much more scaled down. They're decidedly grittier and yet far more hilarious. You know, like not a self serious dowager queen or a scheming master of whispers to be found. Which is not to say that I don't love those bits about Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon. I love that stuff as well. But it's really refreshing to figure out what our hero does when they don't have world class training or mountains of gold. What happens when your hero is a guy who can't afford a belt and some kid that he meets in a barn?

Actor (Dunk) (5:53)

You don't look to be a knight. What?

Actor (Egg) (5:56)

All knights look the same, do they?

Actor (Dunk) (5:58)

No, but they don't look like to you either your belt's made of rope.

Actor (Egg) (6:04)

So long as it holds my scabbard.

J.C. Howard (6:06)

It serves without highborne combat skills or being able to command respect or strike fear with a dragon, they have nothing but good intentions and a sense of adventure. The thing that I love about it mainly is that Dunk is not to change history. He's there to just be a knight. And that's kind of the show we need right now. Yeah.

Nikki Burch (6:27)

Earn his place.

Commercial Announcer (6:28)

Yeah.

Glen Weldon (6:28)

This is a show about just getting through it. I like that about it.

J.C. Howard (6:31)

That's right. Keeping our head above water.

Glen Weldon (6:32)

All right, Nikki, what'd you think?

Nikki Burch (6:33)

Yeah, I've really loved it. I am a huge fan of the novella the Hedge Knight, which this season is based on. And the thing I love the most about reading that is that every time I read it, I'm still surprised. It's like the first time I have all the same anxieties. And so I was looking forward to seeing those things play out in the show. And I think they do such a good job. Like, I was weepy. I legit cried during a couple scenes because I couldn't believe they were like. Seeing these things finally happen on the screen was just such a big deal for me. And, you know, speaking of it being stripped down, you know, I'm always gonna talk about music. And the music person was Dan Roemer. Everything in Game of Thrones is so grand and pompous. There's all this fanfare and now we've got to Kind of strip down. It feels a little bit like you're at the Shire. And I really love that switch.

J.C. Howard (7:22)

Decidedly quieter.

Nikki Burch (7:23)

Yeah, yeah. Much, much, much. And it's like, well, this is probably what the common folk would do. Like you're saying, dunk cannot even afford a sword belt. And you know, how many instruments might these people have? It's just super simple and just so endearing. And I really love how both of the characters were portrayed. The actress did such a good job. I actually saw them at Comic Con. And once a Comic Con, I went to a panel and George R.R. martin was there, Ira Parker was there, the showrunner.

Glen Weldon (7:49)

Amazing.

Nikki Burch (7:49)

And Dexter Sol Ansel, Peter Claffy, all there. And it was just wonderful to see how excited they were about the show and excited for other people to see it.

J.C. Howard (7:59)

Yes, very good, very good.

Glen Weldon (8:01)

You know, I didn't think I would like this as much as I ended up liking it because I like fantasy. That's, you know, that's fantastic. Right? Miss me? With the kind of fantasy that is, that reads like alt history where you go to the trouble of building a world and then the world you build is just like our own. It's as boring as ours. What's the point of that? And look, I think this is coming from the fact that I recapped both Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon for NPR for my sins. And I heard, and I, I continue to hear from so many people who seem to build their personality around not liking something that's popular.

Commercial Announcer (8:29)

Right.

Glen Weldon (8:31)

Particularly. This is what was always struck in their craw. The stuff about the shows that is fantastic, the dragons, the magic. I mean, I had work colleagues who shall remain nameless stop me in the break room first thing in the morning and be like, you know what? I don't care about dragons.

Nikki Burch (8:44)

Be like, hater.

Glen Weldon (8:45)

I just need to use the copier, dude. And I kind of want to go back and find all those people who wrote to me and say, look, here it is. Here you go, try this. I personally miss the magic. I miss the dragons. I don't miss having to do homework, but I love this tone. If it's gonna be just some grubby nights beating the snot out of each other while they're hip deep in mud. Give me this, give me character comedy, give me lightness. Give me something this small, this specific, with very clear stakes. They're not world shattering stakes, but they're very clear. Gimme. As you guys mentioned, point of view of commoners. Give me short episodes, short seasons.

J.C. Howard (9:22)

Yes, right. 30 minutes.

Nikki Burch (9:24)

I was sad. I wanted them to be longer.

J.C. Howard (9:26)

Yeah, yeah.

Glen Weldon (9:27)

No, no, no, no, no. It wouldn't fit. It wouldn't fit the tone.

Nikki Burch (9:29)

But they did a good job every episode. I was satisfied.

Glen Weldon (9:33)

Well, see, what Martin was doing with the novellas was trying to find little patches of lightness in the world. Because certainly you come away from the books, you come away from Thrones and House of the Dragon with a sense of this is an author who is trying to insist and show you just how cruel and unjust and malicious and brutal this world is. Which is where the violence comes in. Which is where the sexual violence comes in. Just he's insisting that the medieval world was really that cruel. And which, of course, the only logical answer to that is, dude, there are dragons. You put dragons in here. You put prophecies. You put witches who are giving birth to shadow demons. What's the real project here?

J.C. Howard (10:07)

How realistic do we need to be? Right.

Glen Weldon (10:09)

Exactly. What are we doing here? And does the fact that every episode of Thrones in House of the Dragon stops dead to take a detour through the bowels of a pleasure den, Is that because of your commitment to this BS notion of verisimilitude and authenticity, or do you maybe just like boobs? George, you don't have to predicate it.

Nikki Burch (10:26)

It was a major part of the economy. Sure.

Glen Weldon (10:29)

This is what I want to ask about. Now, while the show doesn't suffer from a lot of Martin's usual kind of writerly ticks, I guess you'd call them, it does double down on others. The only women that this show cares about that gives speaking parts to are sex workers and love interests. And those love interests, not a spoiler to say they never get to be much more than plot devices because what happens to them is used to kind of trigger our hero into action, which makes sense. I mean, the guy's literally a white knight, so it's kind of in the job description. Did that bounce you out of the show at all? Did you just roll with it? You know, George going to George, how'd that aspect of the show grab you guys?

Nikki Burch (11:03)

It didn't bother me because, I mean, probably because I know the books and also the women who are mentioned in the books. Like, the only time you actually hear something from a woman in the novella is from Tansel. Tansel, too tall and the innkeeper. That's it. That's it. You know, like adding Lord Ashford's daughter, who for whom the tourney is being thrown in the first place. That was a twist. Didn't see that coming. Okay, cool. It's the birthday girl. Here she is.

Glen Weldon (11:29)

Three lines, but okay.

J.C. Howard (11:30)

Right, right. Just to say, though, I loved the addition of her because, like, she had total main character energy. Like, this was about her. And yet, like, I watched the second episode and just the look on Dunk's face after she talks to him in that second episode, he's like, I don't know who you are. That's so perfect to me, that humor in the show.

Actor (Dunk) (11:50)

You're big and stupid.

Nikki Burch (11:52)

Yeah. No. And I think what's interesting about the women when they do get the lines that they get to say is that maybe because they're sex workers, maybe because it's the innkeeper, they get to speak the truth.

J.C. Howard (12:04)

Yeah.

Nikki Burch (12:05)

You know the thing that stands out to me about the innkeeper, she's like, I don't know that anything that's been happening with the royals and the nobles has ever changed the price of eggs.

J.C. Howard (12:14)

Yeah.

Nikki Burch (12:14)

That's what matters to me.

J.C. Howard (12:15)

Yep.

Actor (Dunk) (12:16)

Knights are built the same as other men. And I never knew a joust to change the price of eggs.

Glen Weldon (12:20)

Topical.

Commercial Announcer (12:21)

Yeah.

J.C. Howard (12:21)

Right.

Glen Weldon (12:22)

Figure of the pulse. Yeah. Absolutely.

J.C. Howard (12:23)

Can relate.

Glen Weldon (12:24)

It is a relief to have a character like Dunk, who is exactly the kind of character who would get fed into the meat grinder on those other shows.

Nikki Burch (12:32)

100%.

Glen Weldon (12:33)

He is experiencing, I wouldn't call them victories. Little, tiny, like, not failures. Which means there's a lightness here. There is a lack of that incessant, grim brutality. Though there is violence. Now, the critical response to this has been mostly positive. The negative responses I've seen is they don't know who the show is for because of that likeness. It seems ya to them. How would you react to that?

Nikki Burch (12:54)

Interesting.

J.C. Howard (12:55)

I gotta say that there are two reasons that the show works so well and it's not rocket science. The two reasons are Dunk and Egg. You've built the novellas around them and you've built this show around them. Peter Claffey and Dexter Soul Ansell, they settle into these roles so well, it feels like they were born to play them. Dunk is obviously this oafish and naive.

Nikki Burch (13:18)

Dunk the Lunk. Thick as a castle wall.

J.C. Howard (13:20)

Dunk the Lunk. Right. But he so badly wants to be honorable. And I think the best thing about his performance is that when he takes a knightly tone with Egg, when he tells him to, like, close his insolent mouth, it's very clear that he's just saying things that he's heard knights say, he's saying Things that Ser Arlan said to him. His words fit his vocabulary. Like a suit that's too big, you know, like. And it's, it's, it's so charming and sympathetic. Then you have Egg, who is. I mean, just what a character, first of all. And what a kid. What a performer. He's got a tall order to fill because he has to be precocious and whip smart and impulsive.

Nikki Burch (14:01)

Exactly. That vulnerability.

J.C. Howard (14:03)

Dunkin Egg for president and vice president. Like, this show. Anyone who's questioning, like, who is this show for?

Nikki Burch (14:09)

It's.

J.C. Howard (14:09)

For me, I'm just, I'm into it. I love it.

Nikki Burch (14:11)

It's. You know, I think the best thing that I notice about Dunk is he only has one example of a knight that he spent time with. Right. He was a squire for Sir Arland, who nobody knows. But he learned to be honorable. He learned all, like to embody all the oaths because that's what he saw throughout the season. He's coming up against, well, wait a second, you guys are all knights. I thought you were supposed to be respectful and honorable and protective and all these things. And he gets, he keeps getting disappointed by seeing what the reality is. And there was something really cute that I noticed that happened in the scene. Like as he's trying to find his direction, like, literally he would be standing there and like leave a conversation or situation and then turn one way and be like, oh, no, I have to go the other way. And it happens several times throughout the show. And I love George R.R. martin for this type of stuff because even in the novellas he's foreshadowing so much. And I think that there's a big nod to the book nerds in the words that he's putting in other people's mouths. You know, there's like little book Easter eggs.

Glen Weldon (15:13)

Yeah. I mean, this is basically a two hander, right? This is Dunkin Egg. And if the Dunkin Egg relationship doesn't work, the show doesn't work. And I think it really works. And I think what people might be picking up on with the YA stuff is that one of those two hands is a kid. So they're just jumping to the conclusion it's ya. It's not what it is, though. Let's mention. Let's get to this. It's incredibly faithful to the book.

J.C. Howard (15:31)

Yes.

Glen Weldon (15:31)

Pretty much all the dialogue is pretty much verbatim. The only thing that's really added is stuff that works, which is all the stuff with Lionel Baratheon played by Dan.

Commercial Announcer (15:40)

Yeah.

J.C. Howard (15:40)

Yeah. Holy.

Nikki Burch (15:41)

Oh my God love. Most likely to make you break curfew.

J.C. Howard (15:44)

Yeah, absolutely.

Glen Weldon (15:45)

So the books are very slim. So the test of the show is what does it decide to build out? Cause it has to build out something, and it builds out character stuff. Baratheon is charming.

J.C. Howard (15:53)

So nice.

Glen Weldon (15:54)

He's drunk. He's brave. Not too brave. And that's a great sign because that suggests to me that the creators aren't trying to depart from the books and create these ancillary unnecessary B, C and D plots. What they're doing instead is digging into the books and finding stuff that deepens the characterization. Like they did with Baratheon.

Nikki Burch (16:13)

Yeah. Laughing storm. I think there's that moment where Dunk, like, is in his tent and they're hanging out and, you know, Lionel is like, hello, do you belong? And Dunk is like, oh, no, I came for the food.

J.C. Howard (16:28)

Yeah, I came for dinner.

Actor (Egg) (16:29)

You've come for my head, then. What? No, no.

J.C. Howard (16:37)

Then why the are you in my tent?

Actor (Egg) (16:42)

So supper.

Nikki Burch (16:44)

I love that moment because Baratheons, historically, like, whether you're thinking about, like, Stannis, Robert, and Renly, they like the truth. They like people to be upfront with them. As long as you shoot straight with them, they're cool with you. And I love that you got to see that, because the Baratheons, that's the party fraternity.

Glen Weldon (17:00)

Yeah, that's true.

J.C. Howard (17:02)

Yeah. I think one of the cool things about this as a prequel slash sequel, I guess it's kind of both, is that, by and large, there aren't those connections to the characters. I mean, obviously there are. You know, there are Targaryens, there are Baratheons, but there's no connections to actual characters that you see in the other shows. Which. Which makes the show more nimble because it's not burdened with exposition. This isn't Star wars or Hunger Games or Lord of the Rings. You don't need to remember all these things from another story and keep an eye out for references for later on or whatever the homework. Except for some, like, nerd bits in upcoming episodes. So there is plenty for folks who want to go lore diving, but you don't need a 30 minute YouTube video to explain what you need to know before you go into this show. Like, the show is what the show is.

Glen Weldon (17:52)

It could be a single screen experience that you don't need a wiki open on your phone.

J.C. Howard (17:55)

That's right. Right.

Nikki Burch (17:56)

As you're talking about how faithful, like, the script is in the show to the text I found myself repeating verbatim. I'M like, narrating the story along with him because I know those words so well, and I loved that. I think they masterfully switched some of the lines. The story is a lot of inside of Dunk's head, and they took a lot of his words and they sometimes gave them to other characters. And I was like, oh, my gosh, you guys did such a great job. I never thought to do that. And I think some of the things that Egg said that Dunk actually says in the book, it fits Egg because it's got that same level of, like, innocence and naivete and, like, hopefulness. Yeah.

J.C. Howard (18:35)

Yeah.

Glen Weldon (18:35)

My favorite shift is a lot of the stuff Dunk says to himself in the book. He says to his horses in the.

J.C. Howard (18:40)

Show, which is just so good.

Glen Weldon (18:41)

It's characterization. That's what I mean.

Actor (Egg) (18:43)

Not sad. Certainly not rising to the level of a cum sad. Besides, Sir Animals said that a hedge knight was the truest kind of knight.

Nikki Burch (18:58)

Do horses get nominated for Emmys? Cause.

J.C. Howard (19:03)

Sweetfoot needs one.

Glen Weldon (19:04)

Yeah. And one of the themes of the show is that all this stuff about honor and selflessness, it's kind of B.S. but if everybody buys into it, it's not right. It's like it's an ideal. And if everybody else is just paying lip service to it and one character is actually committed to it fully, then that's the character we love. I mean, that's the guy we wanna hang around.

J.C. Howard (19:25)

Yeah.

Nikki Burch (19:25)

And you see that, you know, here's somebody who is, like, such a night nerd, and he can tell you, like, you know, who's from this place and whether or not they want attorney. But he's sitting at the fire and, like, looking at Dunk and there's this moment where he's like, oh, my God, this guy's got nothing. But he's speaking to me like he's got the whole world and that he can provide it. And I love that. Yeah. He gets to look up to somebody who's a nobody.

Commercial Announcer (19:51)

Yeah.

Glen Weldon (19:52)

Yeah. Speak nice. As we tape this, the second season is in production. There's probably going to be a third. I have a feeling this is going to do very well. I'm going to gather from context clues that you guys are all in for seasons two and three. We get them.

Nikki Burch (20:05)

Absolutely.

J.C. Howard (20:06)

Yeah.

Nikki Burch (20:07)

Yeah.

J.C. Howard (20:08)

You can safely say that.

Nikki Burch (20:09)

Absolutely. The Sorenstorn and the mystery knight given to me.

Glen Weldon (20:12)

Yeah. Well, I think we are all in on this. We want to know what you think about a Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. Find us@facebook.com and a reminder, we are pulling back the curtain and letting Pop Culture Happy Hour plus supporters sit in virtually on a live episode taping. They'll get to see how the show is made and experience this episode before everyone else. And we'll be talking about something Oscars related, which is one of our favorite topics. Anyway, it's all happening over Zoom on Friday, February 13th at 3pm Eastern Noon Pacific. If you are not a plus supporter yet, go to plus.npr.org happy again, that is plus.npr.org happy if you are already a plus supporter, thank you very much and scroll back in your feed to January 22nd to learn how to register for the taping. And that brings us to the end of our show. J.C. howard, Nikki Burch, thank you so much for being here.

Nikki Burch (21:01)

Thanks for having us.

J.C. Howard (21:02)

Thank you for having us. And Glenn, thank you for not giving me a clout in the air.

Glen Weldon (21:07)

Appreciate it. I mean, you know, big of you. Maybe next year. This episode was produced by Liz Metzger, Kayla Latimore and Mike Katsif and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. And hello, Kamin provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. I'm Glenn Weldon, and we'll see you all next time.

Commercial Announcer (21:26)

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