Jeff Yang (2:47)

You know, I went in pretty skeptical about the premise just because there's a whole sort of cottage industry now of Asians exploring their identity through popular culture on screen. You've got stuff like Master of None and everything everywhere all at once and shortcomings, Interior Chinatown. And a lot of them have been really good, but sometimes it's hard to say, well, is this next one going to lend something more? Is it going to expand that horizon? And the fact is, the very thing that I was a little skeptical about ended up being not just the core of the premise of this, but the very fact that Amazon owns MGM now and is the caretaker of the James Bond franchise was something that I was worried about because I thought this was going to be either self parody or an attempt at, I don't know, gatekeeping. And instead it was this hugely subversive moment that blended that question of Asian identity and self reflection and mental health with this mythical avatar of whiteness for the British Empire. I loved it. I really enjoyed this much more than I thought I would. And if it was possible to have a season two, I'd watch a season two of this.

Aisha Harris (4:01)

Interesting. Interesting. Okay, thank you, Jeff. Roxanna, did you take the bait?

Roxanna Haddadi (4:06)

I did. I like that we're using this. I did. I did like it. I mean, I hesitate to put this out there, but I do feel like Riz's work is particularly interesting because I think over like the 20 years that he has been acting and writing and creating, the question of representation is in everything, right? Like whether it matters. What is its impact now versus its impact like 10 years ago? How does that change? These are constant questions in everything from Four Lions to the Night of to Sound of Metal to all the stuff that he's been in, really, even the things, of course, that don't matter to his ethnicity at all, like Venom. It is a really interesting thing that he has been circling his entire career. And I think it is fascinating to Jeff's point to use Bond as like the filter to process all of that. So I think it's really heady and really meta and very self aware in a way that is perpetually tripping up the viewer because it's sort of pointing at you and telling you to remember. Remember when we wanted Idris Elba to do this role. Remember when the Internet was fighting?

Jeff Yang (5:28)

Still want it?

Roxanna Haddadi (5:29)

I still want it. Sure. I don't think he wants it anymore, but I think we do.

Aisha Harris (5:34)

He's quite older, I think at this point to just hop in.

Roxanna Haddadi (5:37)

He just got knighted. Idris is actually fine. But I liked that the series is sort of like drawing us into those questions. I also really liked that it's very funny. Riz is very funny if you've seen any of his British satire stuff. And I think him and Gaz Kahn are an amazing comedic duo.

Aisha Harris (5:59)

And if you're strapped for Pesa right now, I'll take you on as a driver. I don't mind. Don't need any money from you, bro.

Jeff Yang (6:05)

There's no waterhood.

Aisha Harris (6:07)

I got stuff cooking.

Roxanna Haddadi (6:08)

What you got cooking?

Aisha Harris (6:08)

I can't tell you this. Top secret. I signed an NDA.

Jeff Yang (6:11)

You ain't signed no NDA.

Aisha Harris (6:13)

I didn't.

Roxanna Haddadi (6:13)

To Jeff's point of wanting a sequel, I would just watch, like a travel show with the two of them. I don't know. I mean, I would watch anything with the two of them. I think there's a lot to like. I think it is messy. I think it is the point that it's messy and it might test people a little bit in the middle of it.

Aisha Harris (6:32)

Yeah.

Roxanna Haddadi (6:33)

But I am a pro.

Aisha Harris (6:34)

Yeah. Yeah. I shared sort of your similar reservations about this just because it does feel. I do wonder how much representation as a theme in work, like, how far that can go these days. I mean, Jeff, you mentioned, you know, some really great shows, including Interior Chinatown, Master of None, which are kind of dealing with these ideas of representation. And I feel, I mean, not to play the Olympics here, but, like, it feels like a similar path I've seen with black filmmaking. And what are the limitations of those types of stories that focus so heavily on, like, can I play this role? And honestly, I got a lot of, like, Hollywood shuffle out of this. In many ways, the Robert Townsend film, where it's kind of like, you know, you're auditioning for this role. I mean, it's not quite a one to one comparison, but I feel as though that movie is also kind of zany. There's imaginative moments, fantastical moments, and there's things like that here. And the question of, like, how much do I want to sell myself out to do these certain roles? And despite the fact that I had those reservations, I do think overall, I became really taken by the story that is being told, especially when it's not so focused on representation. One of my Favorite. Actually, I think the best episode is the one that kind of just representation is there, but it's not the center. And that's during their Eid celebration in episode three. And so, you know, just a little bit of setup here. But like, essentially in the previous episode, Shah was at this museum event that he got in like last minute and he wanted to give this speech or whatever. And at one point a museum protester, like, barges in and Shah goes. He just goes a little overboard for the moment and injures this museum protester. And so in episode three, it's the next day and the family, his entire family, is having their Eid celebration while his agent Felicia, who's played by Weruche Opiates. She keeps pressing Shah over the phone to be like, you need to craft an apology video. Like, you need to do this because this is bad for you. This is not a good look. And so him trying to please his family as these celebrations are happening, while also trying to make this video that he doesn't even feel like he should be making, like, that is fun. And I love seeing Riz play a character who is kind of annoying. He does a lot of bad things. There's another word I would use, but I can't because it's npr. But like, he is the fact that he has people who care for him. He's very lucky because I don't think I could be friends with this dude. He's so self centered and also just doesn't really understand the social contract in some certain ways. And I love seeing that aspect of him. You send a message, a heartfelt one. Instead of it going green, it goes gray. What does that mean to you?

Roxanna Haddadi (9:23)

It means you're blocked.

Aisha Harris (9:25)

Really? Yeah. Let me just show you this. Okay, I'm gonna ask you to leave now. When it's really focused on him as a sort of self involved actor who is also dealing with his own insecurities, that's, for me, when the show really, really shines.

Jeff Yang (9:37)

I do think that Riz Ahmed's performance is such an anchor for the show in so many ways. I mean, the whole cast is incredible, but it's just super hard to make hypocritical self loathing appealing or even watchable. And somehow he really does it. And yes, I loved the episode. I thought it was such a great center point, kind of a pivot for this very short series. But he kind of grabbed me from the very first moment of his introduction. You come into the show and he's basically blaming himself for blowing this audition. Which we kind of see him do. And then there's this moment where he's talking to a mirror and berating himself really horribly.

Aisha Harris (10:19)

You should be ashamed of yourself. You are ashamed of yourself because you're ashamed to hear feminine nobody, nothing.

Jeff Yang (10:25)

Then the audiotac comes in to take off the mic. It turns out the whole time he's on this hot mic because he has not actually been de mic'd this whole time. And as he sort of leans over to have the mic taken off, he just kind of, like, places his head on the guy's shoulder, like, going in for a hug because he's so broken and sad. And I was like, man, that is such a tiny detail. Great choice. I was in. I was like, okay, let's see where this is going.

Aisha Harris (10:51)

Yeah.

Jeff Yang (10:52)

Yeah.

Roxanna Haddadi (10:52)

I think there are lots of those little sort of physical moments where however Riz is carrying himself or the very slight changes he makes to his facial expressions are really strong. I am contractually obligated to mention Leonardo DiCaprio in every conversation I ever have, but it made me think a lot about Once Upon a Time in Hollywood and sort of Leo's performance of an actor who thinks that he has, like, peaked. He's not sure what could come next. I think Riz mines a lot of really compelling pathos from someone who has sort of, like, lost faith in themselves. Right.

Aisha Harris (11:34)

Yeah.

Roxanna Haddadi (11:34)

Has lost faith in the Social Contract, too, because I know what it's like to have very demanding immigrant parents. I know that experience.

Aisha Harris (11:43)

Yeah, same.

Roxanna Haddadi (11:43)

I saw a lot of shared. Yeah, like, shared commonalities in how his family treats him. So I think all of that stuff is really great. I also think maybe something that's worth talking about is the fact that this is six episodes. They are generally like, 25 minutes. And I would say each episode is a different genre. Right. Like, he's doing a paranoid thriller in one, the Eid Celebration, which is more of, like, a family drama. There's almost like a Richard Linklater style shot. Romance.

Aisha Harris (12:18)

Yes.

Roxanna Haddadi (12:18)

So I like also that he and his collaborators are showing this fluidity with genre and, again, sort of making this implicit look. Someone who looks like Riz can do all of these things. This is not like model minority storytelling. Like, he sucks. It is also just, I think, a really strong proof of concept to say, look, maybe Riz is not going to be Bond, but you should be casting these people in your projects. Everybody in this show pulls their weight.

Aisha Harris (12:53)

Yeah. Another thing that I really, really liked about this is that, yes, it is also, you know, immigrant Parent story. But the family overall is quite supportive of him, especially Tyra, his mother. During the celebrations, there's a moment where she's like, I need you to help me. Like, don't leave my side. And you can tell they have this moment. It is my day. It belongs to all Muslims. Mommy, it's mine. And she took it. You know one thing she doesn't have? What? Her son. Mother. Son. They are close. She's, like, proud of him. She's like, I'm so excited you're gonna be bought. Like, there's just. Usually in these stories, we often see the parent and often the mother really, like, who is very much like, you should be a doctor, you should be a lawyer, like, the arts, whatever. And we don't see that. We see family that, yes, they have their issues. And a lot of it really does stem from Shah himself not being able to balance both his own personal career goals with also being a family person. But I love seeing that connection between them. We mentioned Patrick Stewart and, you know, I enjoy how kind of chaotic that turns into. He is playing sort of Shah's id. Like, all of those things.

Jeff Yang (14:10)

You only have yourself to blame.

Aisha Harris (14:12)

I'm trying.

Roxanna Haddadi (14:14)

Try harder.

Jeff Yang (14:15)

Do you understand?

Aisha Harris (14:17)

He's playing sort of like the inner self of Shaw in a way that I find really fascinating.

Jeff Yang (14:22)

It's E Did.

Aisha Harris (14:23)

Oh, yes. Yes. It's a fun voice role. We don't actually see him on screen, but it's a fun sort of voice role that also is weird. And that weirdness is what helps keep it fresh. I'm even seeing a little bit of Boots Riley in here, right? Just like, yeah, oh, completely. Boots Riley, Spike joke. Those types of filmmakers who are just kind of quirky, weird, but also providing that social commentary that feels kind of rich and meaty.

Jeff Yang (14:53)

I wanted to really go back to what you said about family members supporting him and so forth, and his mom especially. And I personally felt a little bit like both seen and exposed because I have a son, my elder son, Hudson is an actor. And there's this one line that the mom delivers when she said it made me just internally clench up and cringe. She says at one point, is work going well? I haven't gotten a Google alert for a long time. I was like, oh, my God, that's me. The other series that's out right now that actually just got an unexpected second season that this definitely feels like it should be watched alongside is Marvel's Wonder man, in which Yahya Abdul Mateen ii, the protagonist, and Ben Kingsley, they have, like, A really interesting and similar relationship in a lot of ways as like Riz Ahmed and Patrick Stewart. And the whole thing is also this treatise on what it's like to be an actor and narcissistic and hating yourself and loving yourself too much. It's really fascinating.

Aisha Harris (15:55)

One thing I did kind of wonder is, did you all have a clear sense on what, like, how famous Shah was before this Bond? Because that was the one thing where I was just like, how famous is he? Because he's able to sort of like walk in the world. There's a joke at the beginning, it's again, kind of familiar, but it's like he gets mistaken for another actor. What?

Roxanna Haddadi (16:18)

He's not Dev Patel. Look how short he is. Dev is tall, strong, handsome, our Gujarati hero.

Aisha Harris (16:26)

And it's like, oh, yeah, this happens all the time. But I also wasn't sure, like, is he a Callum Turner type of famous? Where it's like, maybe famous in the UK but not that. Like, was that confusing to you as well, or did that bother you at all? Because I was just trying to wrap my head around like, how famous is this dude? Like, he has fans, he has like a bobblehead which they referenced multiple times.

Roxanna Haddadi (16:52)

But like, yeah, yeah, I mean, I definitely don't think that he is. But again, this is sort of like a tricky thing, right? Because, like, Riz has an Oscar, he's been nominated for an Oscar, but I don't know how many people on the street would be like, oh, that's Riz Ahmed. Let me talk about his filmography with you. Yeah, so part of me almost thought like, he's clearly not meant to be as famous as he is in real life. But I did wonder if he is meant to be as famous as some of the other actors in the show, like Himesh Patel, who is here playing like his rival. And people might know himesh from station 11 or you might know him from Tenet, but again, I don't know, walking through the street, if people would recognize who he is. So that again, sort of felt to me like a meta commentary on this show is probably full of brown dudes that you might recognize, but it might take you a second to place them. Even someone like Gus. He is a well known comedian in the uk. American people probably know him from Taskmaster, but I don't know what else they might know him from. So I don't know. But I guess I just took it as again, part of the show, sort of like winking at us.

Jeff Yang (18:08)

I feel like, especially when you're talking About Bond. Right. Which I think historically, other than Pierce Brosnan, they've generally picked actors who were a little bit unexpected, who come off as being like, oh, I've seen that guy before in other stuff that could be kind of similar, but, like, did anybody really know who Daniel Craig was right before he was cast? And the thing is, when it's a white actor, people just give that elasticity, like, oh, they picked the right guy. Or they, you know, we'll watch to see what happens. But if it's somebody who is in that slightly more obscure space and the person's not white or not male or maybe not straight, I'm sure the reaction, much like in this show would be just hugely like, what the hell do they think they're doing? So I think the show is definitely playing with that on purpose.

Aisha Harris (18:55)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Roxanna Haddadi (18:56)

Also, Callum is engaged to Dua Lipa, so he has a certain level of, oh, that's true.

Aisha Harris (19:02)

I keep forgetting this is the thing. Like, I'm not a Bond person at all. I've seen all of the Daniel Craig ones and I've seen the earliest ones with Sean Connery. I've skipped all the other ones. I don't really care. I understand that this is a British thing that, you know, and I'm also very curious to see how this show translates for audiences. I do want to preface for those who maybe are listening and haven't dug in yet or just haven't finished it yet. Bond is kind of in the background. It's not the be all and end all of the show. And again, I think that's what makes another thing that makes this work is that it's there. It's a catalyst. It's not just about him being a brown person. It's also about, like, am I actually meant to play this character? Like, can I? Am I a super. Like the British version of the superhero?

Jeff Yang (19:46)

Like British Batman?

Aisha Harris (19:48)

Yeah, British Batman, exactly. Yeah. So I really dug this. I watch it all in one sitting. It goes down very, very easy.

Roxanna Haddadi (19:54)

Right?

Aisha Harris (19:54)

Riz has the Riz, as they say. Well, tell us what you think about bait. Find us@facebook.compchh and up next, we're gonna be talking about what's making this week.

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Aisha Harris (21:50)

A reminder, if you're not following our show yet, hit that follow button on your preferred podcast app and stay plugged in on all things pop culture happy hour adjacent, including what's Making us Happy every week. Which brings me to what is making us happy? I'm gonna start with you Roxanna. What is making you happy this week?

Roxanna Haddadi (22:08)

What is making me happy this week is the upcoming novel by Jordan Harper called A Violent Masterpiece, which comes out in late April. I think I've talked about Jordan's work before and I think it's because it's what I want out of television about la. But I'm getting it in novel form and these are just like really beautifully written, horrendously violent neo noir books that really take me back to like when I was in middle school watching the Shield and feeling like I was reading something or watching something super subversive and transgressive and maybe not what I should have been watching at that young of an age, but I would heartily recommend them. This one is sort of actually related to Riz Ahmed a little bit in that it is about like a live stream sort of tabloid style videographer who travels around la, like chasing down crime scenes. So it's about this character and sort of his, I would say discovery of a Jeffrey Epstein like conspiracy. That is a violent masterpiece by Jordan Harper. It's Coming out at the end of next month.

Aisha Harris (23:22)

All right, thank you so much, Roxanna. Jeff, what is making you happy?

Jeff Yang (23:25)

So I'm hardly alone in this, but I stayed up and. And very early watched the return of bts, the boy band that ran the world, and they are back. And just seeing them together on stage, and I think very specifically, I'll just say my bias is rm My favorite of the group. And he hurt himself in rehearsal and was not able to actually do the complicated choreography and dance that BTS is so well known for. And. And nevertheless, he and the rest of the boys, they just. There's such a breath of freshness and innocence in a world where it feels like we have so little of it. And I don't know. For that hour, I was watching the reunion concert. I was definitely happy.

Aisha Harris (24:14)

Aw. Yes. I love that.

Roxanna Haddadi (24:17)

That's sweet. And I love that it is thematically completely opposed to what's making me happy takes all kinds.

Aisha Harris (24:25)

Well, thank you, Jeff. I love that it sounds like made you so happy. That is BTS the comeback live, and that is streaming on Netflix. What is making me happy? So Liza Minnelli has a new memoir out called Kids. Wait till you hear this. But that's not what's making me happy because I haven't read it yet. I'm sure it'll be great. What is making me happy is that it made me return to the great TV concert film from 1972, Liza with a Z. This is just about an hour of Liza being Liza in her prime, and it's directed and choreographed by Bob Fosse, written by Fred Ebb, and it's just her just being Liza. And if you know Liza Minnelli and if you enjoy that stuff, it is catnip. It is perfect. There are lots of great songs. She's singing. She's singing by herself. She's got dancers. But for me, the highlight has always been and will always be her performing. Joe Texas song I Gotcha promised me

Roxanna Haddadi (25:23)

it would be just us two.

Aisha Harris (25:34)

And the choreography is like Peak Fosse, like herky jerky, and it's Liza Minnelli doing it. It's both incredibly cool and not at all cool, and I love it. It is what she does best, and that's what's making me happy. This week, you can find it streaming on Tubi. Liza with a Z. That brings us to the end of our show. Roxanna Hadati and Jeff Yang, thank you so much for being here. This was so much fun, always.

Roxanna Haddadi (26:00)

Thank you.

Aisha Harris (26:01)

This episode was produced by Liz Metzger, Hafsa Fathoma and Mike Katsif and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. Halua Kamin provides our theme music. And thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. I'm Ayesha Harris and we'll see you all next week.

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