Kristen Meinzer (3:12)

Sometimes I get scared that your closest relationship is with God. And don't take this the wrong way, honey, but God isn't touching your body for pleasure.

Glenn Weldon (3:22)

All right, Mom.

Kristen Meinzer (3:23)

Honey, I know that it's a sacred relationship, but you know what I'm talking about.

Glenn Weldon (3:30)

The show is co created by Levy and Rachel Sennett, who created I Love LA Big Mistakes is streaming on Netflix, and I kind of dug it. But from our conversations before taping this episode, I gather. Kristen, you didn't tell me more.

Kristen Meinzer (3:44)

All right. Well, yes, we disagree. Much like the characters on the show who bicker and bicker and bicker and bicker and bicker throughout the show. It's your fault, Morgan. It is entirely your fault. Your problem. Okay, okay.

Candice Lim (4:02)

This is really reaffirming why we live

Kristen Meinzer (4:04)

in the same town and never speak to each other. It's not productive bickering. It's just fighting. That does not bring the story closer to something. It just. In case you didn't notice, this is a bickering family. We're going to show you again that they bicker. But I think my bigger issue with the show is that these characters have no agency. They are pillars in their community. They own a business that has been a staple in their town for the past 70 years. Dan Levy plays a pastor who is respected and adored in his community. But despite having these prominent roles, they can't decide anything or do anything. They can't even fail because they don't ever try at anything. They are essentially chess pieces being moved on a board. And it just drove me nuts. I'm like, please do something. Please, please. And I will say, by the end of the first season, our characters do start making choices. They do start propelling themselves forward of their own volition. And once that started happening, I really did enjoy the show, but it was a slog to get there for me.

Glenn Weldon (5:11)

Okay. Oh, the S word. We're busting out the S word early in the podcast. All right, Candace, S word or no,

Candice Lim (5:21)

sorry, Glenn, I'm going to use the B word. I think this show's Kind of boring.

Glenn Weldon (5:24)

Go more boring slog.

Candice Lim (5:25)

Oh no, I know, I know. So here's the deal. Like I was interested in the show because of the Rachel Sennett part. I really like her show. I love la. And I was kind of like, okay, like how does a Dan Levy Rachel Sennett show work? I was like, I'm curious about how the puzzle pieces work. And the answer is they don't. Because Rachel is. Her touch is just so not present in this project's tone or conception. I find her to be very kind of like sexy, but dark woke. And I find this show very sexless. Which, hey, maybe that's just Dan Levy's bag and go for it. But I felt like this show was just like one really long Schitt's Creek episode. And I don't think that's really where I'm at in terms of what I'm looking for in like a TV show that should be kind of funny and should be kind of like wild and crazy. And I was just like, eh, hold

Kristen Meinzer (6:11)

on, one long Schitt's Creek episode would be a compliment.

Glenn Weldon (6:14)

Okay. Uh huh. I disagree with both of you for different reasons. Isn't that interesting?

Candice Lim (6:21)

Go for it.

Glenn Weldon (6:21)

Well, I mean, basically there's a cheat code to the mes of the world. If you want to hook a me, there's a very simple formula. Turns out I found out by watching the show, you just get Laurie Metcalfe to scream at a dying old woman in scene one and I'm in. That's it. That's all it takes.

Kristen Meinzer (6:36)

Mom, what do you want for your birthday from the kids? I don't want a birthday. What do you want for your birthday from Nicholas and Morgan? Who are they?

Glenn Weldon (6:47)

And certainly there's a tendency to think it's Laurie Metcalf. You just wind her up and let her go. Whatever happens is gonna be worth watching. And that's kind of true. But here you still have to write for her and write to her. And I would argue that Levy and Sennett are doing for Metcalf what Levy and the writers room did for Catherine o' Hara on Schitt's Creek. You know, the actor, you know what they can deliver. You write to them, you give them room to do what you hired them to do. So you give the Laurie Metcalf character a hardness. That's funny. But you also make her want something so desperately, which is also funny. But then you honor that reality, right? You ground it a bit. And later in the season she gets a tiny little monologue to explain why she wants to be mayor of this town. And I thought that was gold.

Kristen Meinzer (7:28)

When I knew that the day would come when your Nonna would be gone and there wasn't anybody else I needed to take care of. I just thought, well, why not reach for a little power?

Glenn Weldon (7:41)

I like this whole show. I kept thinking, ironically, Candice, I thought, this is Schitt's Creek without the hugs and schmoopiness. Schitt's Creek in that first season, we don't like to talk about, but Schitt's Creek before it softened, before it sanded down and rounded out the character's edges. That's not fair because I'm comparing it just to Levy's work and I don't know, Sennett's work. I haven't watched I love Ale.

Kristen Meinzer (8:03)

Right.

Glenn Weldon (8:03)

And it's also not fair because, I mean, Levy made a film in 2023 called Good Grief, which. Which didn't work for me at all. That felt more like journaling, felt more like a therapy session than it was a work of art meant to engage, you know, the world outside his own head. Clearly the guy's got shmoopiness to spare. But this is a co creation. This is half Rachel Sennett. And so I'm grateful for you to kind of saying what the Rachel Sennett DNA is. But, Kristin, did you pick up any Rachel Sennott thing here? Like, what's the formula?

Kristen Meinzer (8:33)

I know Rachel Sennett best from Bottoms, which is a movie I love. I think Bottoms is fantastic. It feels raw and unfiltered, even though it's very well written and very funny. And I was with the characters the whole way, but I felt like the fighting in Bottoms was the whole story and what propelled the story. And so it made a lot of sense to me. Whereas in Big Mistakes, the fighting just constantly felt like this isn't pushing the story forward, unless that's the point of the show, is just to watch people not productively bicker. And there's a lot of that. And I'm glad you both have brought up Schitt's Creek, though, because one thing I did think about watching this show was the first season of Schitt's Creek, which, as you said, Glenn, we almost always never speak of because it was so terrible. By the end of the first season, I did actually start to have feelings of affection for Schitt's Creek. And I felt the same way with Big Mistakes. By the end of Big Mistakes season one, I was like, oh, well, now I'm starting to feel something for these people, even though I hated them for most of the season. Maybe if it gets picked up for a second or third season, maybe, much like Schitt's Creek, I will hold it near and dear to my heart. I will cuddle it at night, and I will love it.

Glenn Weldon (9:45)

It doesn't sound like it.

Kristen Meinzer (9:46)

It was a little tough. And I cannot tell you how much I hated the first season of Schitt's Creek. I think I tried watching it 10 times before I could get through it.

Candice Lim (9:54)

Yeah. I mean, the Rachel Sennett of it all. Like, I love that you're bringing up bottoms because that's the thing you expect from Rachel, which is, like, brash, honest, too honest, like Gen Z, just, like, straight to the wall. I think that is where I got caught up, because the show, I actually feel, is very reserved in a way that kind of does remind me of Schitt's Creek, which is that look like Schitt's Creek is about a small town, as this show also is. And you kind of have similar archetypes or characters being played here, right? Like, Dan Levy plays a pastor. The sister is a schoolteacher. The mom's family owned this hardware store for, like, 70 years. And these are people who are supposed to be, like, upstanding, you know, citizens of their city. My thing, though, is that, like, I just have, like, very little to no faith in, like, institutional government, big or local. So in my head, I'm just kind of like, what is this obsession with bringing up that the dad is, like, former chief of police that I found so, like, weird and tacky? And I get it. It's supposed to kind of, like, put this umbrella over them of, like, oh, but like, isn't it crazy that they're, like, canoodling with the bad guys when they should be the good guys? And I was like, well, hot take. I was rooting for the bad guys the entire time. And it's not because, like, this family is bad. It's because I was just like, they're kind of boring. And I think maybe that feeds into what you're saying about agency. Kristen, of, like, it's not that these are people that are, like, not worth rooting for. I'm just like, are you worth making a show about? I don't think so.

Glenn Weldon (11:20)

Now, see, my favorite thing about the show, and this speaks to something you both have brought up, My favorite thing about the show is how much it almost dares you to like these people. Neither one of you saying, oh, I don't like them. That's why the show is bad. I'm grateful you're not saying that, because we've said on the show many times that likability is a hoax. Likability is a Mugs game. Likability is this thing that is held up by, you know, screenwriting teachers and screenwriting books and schools as the only thing the be all, end all the thing you need. But you don't need it. What you need is to find the main characters interesting and individual and believable and human. And if it's a comedy, you need them to be funny. And where we're differing, it seems, is I found them all of those things, and you all found them none of those. And I like to think, and I have no basis for this being true, but in my heart, Levi saw the Schitt's Creek fandom, right? The squeeing over Patrick and David and the way that fandom became kind of louder than the show he made and thought, yeah, I don't wanna do that again. And so I'm gonna make this brother and sister, not David and Alexis. David and Alexis bickered also, as you know, Kristen, but they also had each other's backs at the end of. There is a real gulf between Nicky and Morgan. And I was grateful it was there. Me, I was grateful that it was there because you had to honor it. You couldn't wave it away with one act of kindness because that's not how families work. When the gulf does get bridged, it gets bridged a little later in the season, artificially, in a way that I found very funny and very weirdly accurate in a way that I don't want to spoil here, so you don't have to like them. But it sounds like both of you got tired of them and found them actively annoying. I understand why that's a deal breaker.

Kristen Meinzer (13:06)

Yeah, I think annoying is exactly the word that I was feeling. And I agree with you. Like likability. What does that even mean? And I love lots of shows. I've loved many shows over the years with characters who were, quote, unquote, unlikable, you know, Arrested Development, transparent. There are so many shows I've loved over the years where people have complained, nobody's likable. I don't need that. But I need to care about the characters. And I just don't know if I cared that much about them. And then I'm just gonna do a little old Lady Meinzer moment here, a little kids get off my lawn moment. But I had to have the remote control in My hand the entire time I was watching the show because the sound mixing was driving me nuts. There's whisper fighting, yelling, fighting, whisper fighting, yelling, fighting, sound mixing, machine guns going off, very quietly, explaining why I hate you and want to kill you right now. Don't you dare tell mom. Right. I'm gonna stop old lady Meinzer off her soapbox. Sorry.

Candice Lim (14:01)

I mean, we talk about unlikability and I actually think, is that not what like the Rose family was? They were so unlikable as like four spoiled members of a rich family. And then at some point that show, like, turns the key. Here's my thing. I think I love annoying people. I'm gonna say the people on I love la, for example. Extremely annoying. I live among them every day. Am I one of them? We'll talk about that later. I think if you are annoying, are you at least moving the needle somewhere? Because I think one of my genuine, like, reasons for rooting for the bad guys here is because I see in this show, like, corruption and I'm like, honestly, that's maybe a better option than local politics, which is a farce in itself. And so I'm kind of like, well, at least the bad guys are getting stuff done. At least they're moving something forward. And in a weird way, I'm like, they're building community through trade. Hey, now, that's local economy. And yeah, that is such a good

Kristen Meinzer (14:55)

point, Candice, because our main characters are essentially non player characters. They're like in the video game, the characters who just are there while you're driving your Grand Theft Auto car and knocking down buildings and they're just on the sidewalk.

Glenn Weldon (15:06)

I understand where you're coming from in one very specific way. And it speaks to agency that you both brought up. There is one thing that almost had me slacking our producers and saying, yep, we're not gonna do this. I hate the show. I don't get. The show happened in the very first episode. And it's a plot thing. It has nothing to do with characterization. It's the so called inciting incident, which is a screenwriting term for the moment that kicks the plot into motion. This show isn't a sitcom, right? It isn't just a vibe. It's a crime story at heart. And that means it depends on a narrative, a narrative framework of escalation. So you have to incite that escalation correctly. If you don't buy the inciting incident, you don't buy anything that comes after it. There is a necklace on their dead grandmother's neck. Nikki The Dan Levy character is a pastor who is performing the service. He has unique access to that casket. He knew what he needed to do. He knew what time he had to do it by. He had all the time in the world to do it. He had ample opportunity afforded only to him. In all the universe, there was only one person who could have been in that room with that casket alone, and it's him. His mom comes in and says, we have to move her now because she's late for her own funeral. I was like, what? We only saw him in that room for, like, 30 seconds. He could have shown up hours and hours earlier. He could have spent two hours just futzing over that body, and nobody would have batted an eye. I don't buy it for a second. And we join the action that late? Why do we join the action that late? Why is she late for her own funeral? It's like every scene in a classroom which opens, like, 30 seconds before the school bell. It's ridiculous. It bugged me so much. And in interviews, Levy has said that he and Senate wrote that pilot in a day. And that's never happened before for me. And I was like, yeah, that necklace business is some first draft nonsense that you needed to interrogate your plot. You needed to do a better job of laying the track if it's gonna support the entire show. All of the narrative weight of the show rests on, oh, he didn't get the necklace.

Candice Lim (17:04)

Yeah.

Glenn Weldon (17:05)

Why didn't he get the necklace?

Kristen Meinzer (17:07)

Yeah. And it's the second time in the pilot that he gets derailed because he chose not to lock a door.

Glenn Weldon (17:14)

Also, there's also that.

Candice Lim (17:16)

I mean, I'm glad you brought up that part point, Glenn, because what I actually thought about is the fact that this thing has happened on another show that I think we both love Dairy Girls. And they did it so much better. There's a dead woman. They're trying to get the earrings, and it's just like, they do it so much faster, shorter, better, sharper, better. To which I then say, I think that a better version of this show is how to get to Heaven from Belfast. I think that is just as crimey, just as thrillery. It is longer, but it's. It has an energy and it has a pace that honestly is more like Rachel Sennett but Irish. And I think that's where this leaves me a little saggy of, like, I do think that, you know, my heart rate finally kicked up towards, like, end and end of the penultimate into the finale. I was like, okay, like, I'm actually getting interested. But leading up to that, I'm like, I'm having a hard time buying in. I'm having a hard time investing. To which I then think maybe I just have a Dan Levy problem. That's okay. Schitt's Creek was fun.

Kristen Meinzer (18:12)

It was fun.

Glenn Weldon (18:13)

Kristin, you get the last word.

Kristen Meinzer (18:14)

I like Dan Levy. I want to make clear. Dan Levy, if you're listening right now, I like you. I love it when you show up in a show and I don't expect it. I love in sex education when you end up being a smarmy writing teacher who has a delicate ego and you're just a terrible man. I love every version of Dan Levy. I think he's great. And I do have hope for the show. The final two episodes I was like, I'm actually into it now. So I do hope that the same thing happens to me as what happened with Schitt's Creek, that I will be with the show all the way if there's a season two. But if there's not a season two, I'll probably never speak of the show again.

Glenn Weldon (18:54)

Look, this doesn't happen a lot where I'm out here planting a flag on the hill, being assailed. Assailed, I say, by other people who made very good points that I kind of agree with. That brings us to the end of our show. Kristen Meinzer, Candace Lim, thank you so much for being here and thank you for not holding back.

Candice Lim (19:13)

Thank you.

Kristen Meinzer (19:14)

Thanks, Glenn.

Glenn Weldon (19:15)

This episode was produced by Hafsa Fathom and Mike Katzev, and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy, and hello, Kim, and provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. I'm Glenn Weldon, and we'll see you all next time.

Sponsor/Advertisement Voice (19:31)

This message comes from Jerry. Are you tired of your car insurance rate going up even with a clean driving record? That's why there's Jerry, your proactive insurance assistant. Jerry compares rates side by side from over 50 top insurers and helps you switch with ease. Jerry even tracks market rates and alerts you when it's best to shop. No spam calls, no hidden fees. Drivers who save with Jerry could save over $1,300 a year. Switch with confidence. Download the Jerry app or visit Jerry AI, NPR Today, this message comes from the NPR Wine Club, whose members have generated over $1.75 million to support NPR, whether buying a few bottles or joining the club. Learn more@NPRWineClub.org podcast must be 21 or older to purchase. This message comes from Capital One with the Venture X card, earn unlimited double miles, a 300 annual capital one travel credit and access to airport lounges. Capital One what's in your wallet? Terms apply details@capital1.com.