Conclave

Summary

Pop Culture Happy Hour Episode Summary: "Conclave"

Episode Information:

• Title: Pop Culture Happy Hour
• Host/Author: NPR
• Episode Title: Conclave
• Release Date: April 23, 2025
• Description: Pop Culture Happy Hour dives deep into the latest buzz in movies, TV, music, books, and more, featuring insightful discussions with arts journalists and guest pop culture enthusiasts.

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Introduction to "Conclave" Timestamp: [00:20 - 02:37]

The episode opens with co-host Stephen Thompson introducing the film "Conclave," an Oscar-nominated movie inspired by Robert Harris's 2016 novel. "Conclave" presents a fictional and dramatized account of the secretive process involved in selecting a new pope following the death of Pope Francis. The film stars Ralph Fiennes, Stanley Tucci, John Lithgow, and Isabella Rossellini, showcasing a blend of political thriller and tense jury drama elements set against the backdrop of the Catholic Church.

Aisha Harris adds that the movie offers strong commentary on the Catholic Church's current state while being available for rent or streaming at home. The hosts emphasize the film's engaging narrative and star-studded cast, setting the stage for an in-depth discussion.

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Guest Introductions and Initial Impressions Timestamp: [03:01 - 04:29]

Joining Stephen and Aisha are two guests:

• Waylon Wong: Co-host of NPR's Daily Economics podcast, The Indicator from Planet Money.
• Andrew Lapen: Senior reporter for the Jewish Telegraphic Agency and host of the podcast "Radioactive the Father Coughlin Story."

They commence the discussion by summarizing the plot of "Conclave," highlighting Cardinal Lawrence (played by Ralph Fiennes) orchestrating the conclave of cardinals to elect a new pope. The narrative introduces various candidates, including the potentially treacherous Cardinal Tremblay (John Lithgow) and the openly liberal Cardinal Bellini (Stanley Tucci), among others.

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Critical Analysis and Personal Reactions Timestamp: [04:29 - 10:02]

Aisha Harris's Perspective: Aisha shares her initial reluctance to discuss "Conclave," anticipating a conventional Vatican drama. However, she was pleasantly surprised by the film's humor and dark, quirky motifs. She likens the movie to a blend of "12 Angry Men" and a mystery story, praising the performances and the film's ability to balance serious subject matter with levity.

Andrew Lapen's Insights: Andrew compares "Conclave" to "Columbo in the Vatican," appreciating the setting's ability to create a claustrophobic yet engaging atmosphere. He commends the film for exploring the Catholic Church's internal factions and the characters' secret agendas without being overly heavy-handed. Andrew values the movie's smart, tense drama and its seamless integration of humor.

Waylon Wong's Take: Waylon contrasts his enthusiasm for "Conclave" with Aisha's initial skepticism. Being a fan of Vatican dramas like "Angels and Demons," he appreciated the film's elaborate rituals, baroque settings, and campy elements. Waylon enjoyed the performances, especially the depiction of the cardinals' interactions, though he expressed some dissatisfaction with the film's payoff, feeling it was slightly less impactful than the sum of its parts.

Stephen Thompson's Observations: Stephen echoes his appreciation for the film, highlighting its political undertones and the absence of overtly dramatic dialogue reminiscent of Aaron Sorkin. He praises the film for its natural portrayal of political processes within the conclave and the nuanced commentary on the Catholic Church's internal politics.

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Detailed Scene and Character Analysis Timestamp: [10:02 - 16:11]

Twists and Humor: Aisha discusses the film's numerous twists, particularly facilitated by the character O'Malley (Brianne F Oburn), who uncovers secrets about each cardinal. These moments inject humor and intentional absurdity, aligning with the film's less-than-subtle storytelling approach.

Stanley Tucci's Character: Tucci's portrayal of Cardinal Bellini is noted for his overt political stance, echoing contemporary political climates. His character frequently emphasizes the need for progress and distance from past doctrines, adding layers to the film's political commentary.

Photocopier and Modern Technology: Waylon and Andrew delve into specific scenes, such as the tension-filled photocopier interaction between Cardinal Lawrence and Isabella Rossellini's character. They draw parallels to memorable cinematic moments, appreciating how the film juxtaposes ancient church rituals with modern technology, like an elderly cardinal using an iPhone amidst seclusion.

Vaping as a Character Trait: A notable moment is Cardinal Tedesco (Sergio Castellito) seen vaping, symbolizing his malevolent nature. Both Aisha and Andrew find this detail amusing and significant, as vaping has become a contemporary shorthand for villainy in cinema.

Women's Roles and Representation: Aisha highlights Isabella Rossellini's impactful but limited role as a nun, noting the film's struggle between addressing the exclusion of women in church decision-making and inadvertently reinforcing that dynamic. Andrew echoes this sentiment, appreciating Rossellini's strong moments while critiquing the underutilization of female characters.

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Thematic Exploration and Directorial Choices Timestamp: [16:11 - 20:14]

Faith, Doubt, and Power: Andrew discusses the protagonist Cardinal Lawrence's internal conflict between his lost faith and his concealed ambition to become pope. This dynamic underscores the film's exploration of power's allure within the Catholic Church, even among those who harbor doubts.

Fantastical Elements and Realism: Aisha reflects on the film's fantastical elements, likening it to a subdued fantasy or fan fiction. She appreciates that while the movie takes creative liberties, it captures the essence of the church's internal struggles and the broader tensions between tradition and modernity.

Comparisons to Other Films: Waylon expresses a wish for a deeper exploration of themes like faith and doubt, comparing "Conclave" to "Angels and Demons." He feels that while "Conclave" presents a compelling narrative, it doesn't delve as deeply into its thematic elements as some other Vatican-centric films.

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Musical Score and Direction Timestamp: [20:14 - 22:58]

Edward Berger's Direction: Stephen acknowledges director Edward Berger's previous work on the acclaimed "All Quiet on the Western Front," praising his ability to craft a visually stunning and thematically rich film. He contrasts Berger's Oscar-winning score with his own appreciation for the more classical, sweeping score in "Conclave," which he finds enhances the film's tension and atmosphere.

Music's Role in Enhancing Tension: Aisha and Waylon discuss the film's score, noting how the plucking strings and folk horror-esque melodies contribute to an overarching sense of menace. They agree that the music effectively underscores the film's tense and dramatic moments without overwhelming the narrative.

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Final Thoughts and Conclusion Timestamp: [22:58 - 24:00]

Overall Impressions: The hosts conclude that "Conclave" is an engaging and enjoyable film that successfully blends political thriller elements with dark humor and poignant commentary on the Catholic Church. While acknowledging some minor shortcomings, such as a less satisfying payoff and limited exploration of certain themes, they collectively appreciate the film's ability to entertain and provoke thought within its concise two-hour runtime.

Support and Wrap-Up: Stephen reminds listeners to support the show by subscribing to Pop Culture Happy Hour Plus for a sponsor-free listening experience. The episode closes with thanks to the guests and production team, leaving listeners with a comprehensive understanding of "Conclave" and its place within contemporary pop culture discourse.

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Notable Quotes:

• Stephen Thompson: "At its heart, it's kind of a '12 Angry Men' meets a mystery type of story." [05:28]
• Aisha Harris: "This was actually quite enjoyable. It's a great little piece that's surprisingly funnier than I anticipated." [05:28]
• Andrew Lapen: "It felt like 'Columbo in the Vatican'... the conclave is just starting and they're trying to, like, herd everybody inside." [09:49]
• Waylon Wong: "It's so baroque and bonkers and so far divorced from any actual theology. And I love the camp of it." [06:37]
• Aisha Harris: "There's a moment where... Tedesco is seen vaping. If I'm... anyone under the age of 30 usually is, like, vaping." [15:18]

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This detailed summary encapsulates the rich and multifaceted discussion from the "Pop Culture Happy Hour" episode on the film "Conclave," providing insights into the hosts' and guests' perspectives, key thematic elements, and notable moments that define the movie's reception and cultural significance.

Transcript

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[Stephen Thompson]

Pope Francis death not only led to an outpouring of remembrances, it also unleashed a new wave of memes from the Oscar nominated movie Conclave. It tells a very fun and very fictional story of the secretive process by which a pope is replaced.

[Aisha Harris]

It's a twisty political thriller, it's a tense jury drama, and it's got some strong commentary on the state of the Catholic Church. It stars Ralph Fiennes, Stanley Tucci, John Lithgow and Isabella Rossellini and is available to rent or stream at home. I'm Aisha Harris.

[Stephen Thompson]

And I'm Stephen Thompson. Today on NPR's Pope Culture Happy Hour, we are revisiting our conversation about Conclave.

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This message comes from Viking committed to exploring the world in comfort. Journey through the heart of Europe on an elegant Viking longship with thoughtful service, destination focused dining and cultural enrichment on board and on shore. And every Viking voyage is all inclusive with no children and no casinos. [e-mail] joining us today is Waylon Wong.

[Stephen Thompson]

She's the co host of NPR's Daily Economics podcast, the Indicator from Planet Money. Hey, Waylon.

[Aisha Harris]

Hi.

[Waylon Wong]

The Lord be with you.

[Stephen Thompson]

And also with you. Also with us is Andrew Lapen. He's a senior reporter for the Jewish Telegraphic Agency and the host of the podcast Radioactive the Father Coughlin Story. Welcome back, Andrew.

[Andrew Lapen]

Hey, great to be here.

[Stephen Thompson]

It is great to have you. So Conclave is Based on Robert Harris's 2016 novel of the same name. In both the book and the film, we learn that the fictional pope has just died, setting into motion the complex process of choosing and naming a replacement cardinal Lawrence, played by Ralph Fiennes, is managing the process of assembling a conclave of cardinals. Those cardinals are carefully sequestered until they can come to an agreement about which of them will become the new pope. The options include the possibly treacherous Cardinal Tremblay, played by John Lithgow.

[Andrew Lapen]

I wonder if you really are so very reluctant to have the chalice passed to you.

[Stephen Thompson]

There's Cardinal Bellini, played by Stanley Tucci. He's openly liberal and isn't so much interested in becoming pope as he is hell bent on blocking the candidacy of Cardinal Tedesco, played by Sergio Castellito. Of course, there are more candidates than that and plenty of scandals, surprises and dark horses pop up along the way. Conclave was directed by Edward Berger, who also did the Oscar winning remake of All Quiet on the Western Front. Aisha Harris, I'm going to start with you. What did you think of Conclave?

[Aisha Harris]

Look, this was not my first choice for a movie to talk about. At first I thought, oh man, Pope's Vatican. And it was giving to me. It felt like a very 2000s 2010s Miramax kind of down the middle movie that is absolutely going to rack up a ton of Oscars, whether or not it deserves it or not. I was going into this movie hemming and hawing and my arms folded. Turns out this was actually quite enjoyable. It's a great little piece that's surprisingly funnier than I anticipated and I funny on purpose in ways that are kind of dark and weird. And there's kind of a repetitive recurring motif that I think is very lighthearted and fun that I think we will get into, even though this is obviously like a very serious subject matter. But overall I thought the performances were really great. I had a fun time and at its heart, it's kind of a 12 Angry Men meets a mystery type of story. Yes. To this movie with some caveats, but I'm sure we'll get into that later.

[Stephen Thompson]

Okay. How about you, Andrew?

[Andrew Lapen]

Yeah, I had a lot of fun with this one. I see Aisha's 12 angry men and I'll raise you that. To me, it felt like Colombo in the Vatican. Like Ralphien just kind of walking around to each of the cardinals and holding up a document and going, just one more thing, Just one more thing. And I'm fascinated by the Catholic Church as an institution. And I think it's a very good setting for this kind of twisty, turny political thriller where everyone has a secret and there are different factions and different visions for what they want the future to look like. And so there's this also inherently dramatic setting of the conclave where all the characters have to be sequestered from the outside world. And I think the movie makes really good use of this setting. So it's claustrophobic without feeling too suffocating. But what I really appreciated is that on the one hand, it has something that it really wants to say, that it wants to communicate about the Catholic Church and about its place in modern society. But it's not too heavy handed. It does have those moments of levity and fun, which I really appreciated and which I think make this whole thing go down really smooth. So it's like a smart, tense drama and I was here for it.

[Stephen Thompson]

Nice. How about you, Waylon?

[Waylon Wong]

It's funny, I went into this movie the opposite as Aisha, where I was amped for this movie. Cause I'll tell you what, my secret favorite movie is. Angels and demons. And I was like, I love a Vatican drama.

[Aisha Harris]

And.

[Waylon Wong]

And I love gawking at the, like, grotesque pageantry of the Vatican and this movie. You got your wax seals, you have exquisite stationery, you've got ribbon.

[Stephen Thompson]

So much ritual.

[Waylon Wong]

Yes, so much ritual. And it's so baroque and bonkers and is so far divorced from any actual theology. And I love the camp of it. And I think this movie leans into that and has a lot of fun. So I was dialed in. I had a great time and it really flew by for me. And I really loved the performances. All these cardinals and their little red beanies hissing at each other in corridors. It's all delicious.

[Andrew Lapen]

If you want to defeat Tedesco. This is a conclave, Aldo. It's not a war. It is a war and you have to commit to a side.

[Waylon Wong]

I will say that ultimately there wasn't enough of a satisfying payoff for me. And so I felt like the whole was worth a little less than the sum of its parts, but the parts themselves, super, super fun and enjoyable. And I did get that kind of angels and demons energy from it that I really liked.

[Stephen Thompson]

Nice. Yeah, I came down pretty similarly, I dug this movie quite a bit. And when I think about, I mean, Waylon, you mentioned the sum of the parts. I mean, it's almost impossible for this movie, for the whole of this movie to be greater than the sum of the parts because the parts are jury thriller, political thriller, intrigue, intrigue, intrigue. You mentioned the ritual of it all. This is a gorgeous looking. I really appreciate this. Really could have been kind of a feast of overacting. You know, you get a whole bunch of hams to kind of come in and give speeches at each other. You know, there are vigorous debates about faith and the church and the factions within the church. I appreciated how political the process is and felt like just the nature of that is commentary unto itself. But I didn't feel like there was a need or an attempt to really overly underline those points. You're just watching a political process pay out even though it's kind of not really supposed to be right. They're not supposed to be campaigning. It is supposed to sort of be like you are choosing a figure who is a major religious figure. And yet there are. So I say yet. And there are so many layers of politics underneath the surface of that. The direction the church has taken, the church's stance on different issues. What this movie is not, and I'm going to praise this movie so much for being what it's not, which is Sorkin. This movie is not. This is not an Aaron Sorkin style. Thundering men of importance give speeches back and forth at each other. And for that I really enjoyed and appreciated it. I hesitate to call a movie with this many twists subtle.

[Aisha Harris]

It's not.

[Stephen Thompson]

There's one twist, I think three twists before the end where I was like, oh, come on. But at the same time I hung with it the entire time.

[Aisha Harris]

Well, that's part of the. What I was kind of alluding to with it being funnier than I anticipated is that first of all, there are lots of twists, mini twists. And the way these twists come about is that Cardinal Lawrence, the Ralph Fiennes character, he has his sort of right hand man, O'Malley, who's played by Brianne F oburn. And that guy is sort of like getting the dirt on each, you know, individual cardinal who's up for the Pope role. And each time, O'Malley's coming back to him, and he's like, one more thing, one more. And it's just like. It's really fun. It feels almost as if this is like a Shakespeare. Like, this is the character who's like. But may I just interject, I also have feelings about this new bomb I just dropped on you. Like, I just need to give you. And I think that's part of what, to me, made this so weirdly fun and also helped us, like, to your point, Stephen, about it not being subtle, it's really not. I think the closest that it comes to being sorkiny is the Stanley Tucci character, because he is the guy who keeps saying, we can't go back. Like, this other Pope who is like. And again, this is where the very clear Edward Berger politics were trying to place us in time. And we are in a prime election season right now. It's like, we can't go back. Like, this is terrible.

[Andrew Lapen]

If Tedesco becomes Pope, he will undo 60 years of progress.

[Aisha Harris]

You talk as if you're the only.

[Andrew Lapen]

Alternative, but Adeyemi has the wind behind him. A daimy. A daimy, the man who believes that homosexuals should be sent to prison in this world and hell in the next. A daimy's not the answer to anything, and you know it.

[Aisha Harris]

It is underlined. Let's be clear.

[Stephen Thompson]

Stanley Tucci is the one doing the most of the underlining.

[Aisha Harris]

That is true. Exactly.

[Waylon Wong]

He even makes a Nixon reference. You know, so if you need any subtext, may text, you got Stanley Tucci providing that.

[Aisha Harris]

Yes, it's underlined, but it's not double underlined. How about that?

[Waylon Wong]

Yeah, right, right. So you appreciate the restraint. I did really like the Cardinal Lawrence character. He's kind of like, on one hand, this, like, beleaguered HR manager trying to run a very important meeting. That cannot be an email. You actually do need a meeting.

[Stephen Thompson]

Who feels he's been miscast.

[Waylon Wong]

Who feels he's been miscast, and then he has to turn into, like, Internal affairs investigator. And that's kind of fun, too. I wish we had seen him do a little bit more detective work. Do you know what I mean? But, you know, I think that's a.

[Aisha Harris]

Minor Quibbley was doing all the detective work off screen. Right.

[Waylon Wong]

Wanted to follow O'Malley because he's the one that is, like, talking to, like, the guy down at the docks or whatever, like, Law and Order style, and we don't get to see that. But I did really like the photocopy scene, there's this really fun.

[Stephen Thompson]

There's a great cut to a photocopier.

[Waylon Wong]

Photocopy scene with Cardinal Lawrence and Isabella Rossellini's character. And it made me think about, like, other great photocopy scenes in cinema. And I thought of, like, the Firm, and I was like, we need more, like, tense photocopy scenes. These are great.

[Andrew Lapen]

A good documents movie is worth its weight in gold. Similar to that. Like, any moment where that sort of ancient pageantry of the Church was running up against modern technology was a moment I really enjoyed. There's this great little bit early on when the Conclave is just starting and they're trying to, like, herd everybody inside and they can't hear what's going on in the outside world. And there's a shot of just a bunch of corded phones in a pile that they've clearly been ripped from the walls of the Vatican. And then they just cut to this elderly cardinal who's just sitting on his iPhone. He's clearly about, like, texting someone before he's gonna go into the tunnel, you know? And I love that scene too. It's such a fun little moment. It's so great.

[Stephen Thompson]

I'd love to know, like, why are photocopiers good cinema? But, like, modems aren't?

[Waylon Wong]

I think it's because they're so fallible. They always break. Right. Like, Cardinal Lawrence literally encounters some kind of inscrutable error, and it's like, no, but I really gotta make these count. So you're, like, dependent on this incredibly fallible. But you're on a deadline, and you gotta do it before anyone discovers you. It's great. It's like the same way that a vote like the one that they have in Conclave is naturally great tension, in the way that a jury decision is naturally great tension in any kind of pop culture. I feel like a photocopier does the same trick.

[Andrew Lapen]

We should say we don't actually know how the Conclave works in real life. This is like their best guess at sort of what is happening behind the scenes. And I appreciated that. I think that adds to the sense of, oh, we're peeking behind the curtain, but it's all a little bit absurd and all that stuff. It's so great because it's just a little bit removed from just total seriousness.

[Waylon Wong]

Yeah, it looks like they're launching a nuclear sub when they flip the switch for the white smoke.

[Aisha Harris]

Oh, yeah.

[Waylon Wong]

It's amazing.

[Andrew Lapen]

Yeah.

[Stephen Thompson]

Almost like they need multiple cardinals to flip the switch at the Same time.

[Advertiser 1]

Turn your key.

[Waylon Wong]

Turn your key for the white smoke.

[Aisha Harris]

With regard to the white smoke and also just the photocopier of it all, I really appreciated those little details that really sort of highlight this. Pull this tension between the old world or, like, the way things used to be done in the new world. Like, yes, I know photocopiers still exist, but for the most part, I haven't used one in a very long time. I don't know how many people who are even still working in offices necessarily use them all that often. Don't send me emails, please. But there's a moment where the sort of, like, evil Tedesco cardinal, he's seen vaping. If I'm. Did anyone else see this?

[Andrew Lapen]

Yes.

[Aisha Harris]

Okay. Yes, he's vaping. Okay, thank you. And I was just like, this is hilarious. Like this old man. Because when you think of. At least when I think of vaping, I think of, like, anyone under the age of 30 usually is, like, vaping.

[Waylon Wong]

Yeah. What flavor do you think Tedesco is vaping?

[Aisha Harris]

I don't know. I have no idea.

[Waylon Wong]

Blue, raspberry.

[Andrew Lapen]

I feel like vaping has become the new shorthand for this character is evil.

[Aisha Harris]

Yeah, it really has.

[Andrew Lapen]

Like, have you never seen a good person vape in a movie?

[Aisha Harris]

And I loved that little detail. I also. One thing I would have loved to see more of is Isabella Rossellini. Although she does kind of. She has a. Which is also the same scene where I noticed that he was vaping. But she does have a great moment where she kind of drops a bomb in front of all of these cardinals and does so with this little smirk. She's just like, I'm here.

[Stephen Thompson]

A glimmer in her eye.

[Aisha Harris]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, I think the movie does sort of get into, I think, in an interesting way, this idea that women are still on the outside of all of this decision making. The nuns are on making the food for them. They're mostly seen but not heard. It's just like, those little details. I mean, you could argue, are you just, like, reinforcing these things? But I do think as little Isabella Rossellini as there was a Sister Agnes, like, when she does show up, she shows up, she goes hard. And I was like, this is great.

[Andrew Lapen]

I struggle with that dynamic, too, because I feel like if you're gonna have Isabella Rossellini in your movie as a sassy nun, you want to use her. And so she was waiting the wings maybe a little too long for my taste. Even though that does help the moment she does appear really stand out. But then, you know, there's like, another moment involving a nun character that I think kind of shortchanges her and her perspective. And this is something that the film is, yeah, torn between making a commentary about the fact that this is a boys club and, as you said, Aisha, sort of unfortunately reinforcing that dynamic.

[Aisha Harris]

Yeah.

[Andrew Lapen]

And of course, the divisions that they depict in the film not only parallel our own politics, but also the politics of the Catholic Church. There are these factions that have divided. There are people in real life undermining the Pope. Like, in many ways, the real drama at the Catholic Church is even more absurd than what you get here. It gives the film permission to touch on some of those darker and more political aspects of its subject matter without being too beholden to the record, so to speak.

[Stephen Thompson]

Well, and there's a sense sometimes of, like, wow, some elements of this are really craven. But I can also, as a viewer sit and wonder. I wonder if they're actually worse. Like, it is definitely interested in giving voice to doubt. It's willing to give voice to suspicion about this institution, but it's not trying to necessarily undermine that institution either. Right. Like, it still seems to be coming at it from a general place of there are people in this institution who are operating in good faith.

[Waylon Wong]

I think that is maybe part of what I ultimately found a little bit dissatisfying about this movie is I. I wanted it to have a little bit more to say about faith and doubt or about the relevance of the Catholic Church or about the ambitions of men, you know, who end up in these very powerful positions. And I feel like the movie introduced a bunch of those ideas and then ultimately did not have a whole lot to say about it. That takes us beyond what we have explored in other films, including in Angels and Demons, lol. Which is actually about, you know, the interplay between faith and science. And, you know, I'm like, did Angels and Demons, like, explore these ideas? The same slash? A little better. Like, they're not, you know, this movie, despite having many more trappings of a prestige film than Angels and Demons, you know, it's much more of, like, an Oscar type film. I don't actually think it offers that much more thematically, you know, to chew on than something like Angels and Demons, which is a very straightforward popcorn movie.

[Andrew Lapen]

I do think the evolution of the Ralph Fiennes character gets at some of what you're talking about Weyland, because there's this interesting dynamic where, you know, he says early on that he is a man who has lost his faith. And then there's this through line where people keep telling him, but you want to be pope, right? Like, you secretly want to be pope. And he has to keep. You know, he keeps denying it, denying it. And there's a. I don't want to give too much away, but there's a really interesting turn at one point in the film where the character has to ask himself, wait, do I want to be pope?

[Aisha Harris]

Right?

[Andrew Lapen]

Is that something I want? And Ralph Fiennes plays it really well. And it also speaks to the allure of power within this institution, even among people who seemingly have all of these doubts about it.

[Aisha Harris]

Yeah, to your point, Waylon, about angels and demons. To be honest, I don't think I ever saw the movies.

[Waylon Wong]

I'll lend you my Blu Ray. Watch it at home.

[Andrew Lapen]

Well worn.

[Aisha Harris]

I read the books when that was like, the only book that seemed to be at every airport ever, like, back in the day. So I do remember reading the books. And those are very explicitly fantasy. I did find that this movie, towards the end, felt like its own kind of fantasy, a more subdued kind of fantasy, or like a sort of fan fiction in a way of, like, someone who might, like, have these ideals of what the Catholic Church from the outside, who, like, this is what it should be. These are the things we should be wrestling with. And then here's the ultimate outcome of all of that. And I was like, oh, this is. I mean, this is kind of silly, but also kind of cool. But at the same time, I was laughing. By the end of it, multiple people in my screening, including these two ladies who were actually giggling through the whole time. They were probably in their 50s or 60s. They're having the time of their life. They were talking to the screen and then like, twitch after twist, they're like, ah.

[Waylon Wong]

I made the same noise at one point.

[Aisha Harris]

So, like, in a way, it does feel kind of fantastical. But again, this is one of the nice things about A, not having too much information as to what actually goes down so your imagination can run wild. And B, it's just like you aren't beholden to trying to get everything absolutely right. You're trying to get at something that's sort of true or at least has an essence of truth when it comes to what we imagine people within the Vatican and outside of there are wrestling with. And I don't know, there's something cool about that, I think.

[Stephen Thompson]

I also want to say Edward Berger directed All Quiet on the Western Front a couple years. It was very heavily Oscar nominated. It won a bunch of Oscars, including for best score from Volker Bertelmann, who also records under the name Hauschka. And I love Hauschka's music, but I did not love Volker Bertelmann's score for All Quiet on the Western Front, which I found so Inception Y and just like, bwah, you know, in this kind of oppressive way. And to me, like, this is a superb kind of old style, big sweeping cinematic movie score. And I really dug it.

[Aisha Harris]

I have that in my notes, actually. I loved the sort of plucking strings that keep, keep popping up. It's almost scored kind of like a folk horror movie that, like it was this could have been, you know, hereditary or something, in a good way.

[Waylon Wong]

The music adds this nice air of menace throughout. I think the length and the format really works for this too, because I was thinking there is an alternate reality where this was turned into an 8 to 10 part prestige TV series.

[Andrew Lapen]

No, thank you.

[Waylon Wong]

And I would have hated it. It would have gone on and on and on. We would have read 10,000 words on like vulture about like, what is the ending gonna be? And where is this going? And I would have been bored to tears and really mad. Yeah, but this is two hours. It flies by. There's not a wasted minute in it. And I'm like, in terms of return on investment, excellent return on investment. You're in and out. You have a great romp of a time. And you didn't have to spend 10 hours with what, you know, as I've said, was not a great payoff to me. So then I'm glad it all kind of wrapped up because I'm like, you know what? It's fine. Two hours. Great.

[Stephen Thompson]

Yeah. I think two hours is the right length for a whodunit. I mean, this isn't a whodunit, it's a who's gonna be pope. Well, we wanna know what you think about conclave. Find us at Facebook.com PCHH and on [e-mail] NPRpopculture we'll have a link in our episode description that brings us to the end of our show. Andrew Lapen, Waylon Wong, Aisha Harris, thanks so much for being here.

[Aisha Harris]

Thank you.

[Andrew Lapen]

Thank you.

[Waylon Wong]

Thanks.

[Stephen Thompson]

And just a reminder that signing up for Pop Culture Happy Hour plus is a great way to support our show and public radio. And you get to listen to all of our episodes sponsor free. So please go find out more at plus.NPR.org happyar or visit the link in our show notes. This episode was produced by Liz Metzger and edited by Jessica Reedy and Mike Katsiff. Hello. Come in. Provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. I'm Stephen Thompson and we will see you all tomorrow.

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