Doctor Who

Summary

Pop Culture Happy Hour: Doctor Who Episode Summary

Release Date: April 15, 2025

In this engaging episode of NPR’s Pop Culture Happy Hour, host Glen Weldon is joined by TV critic Eric Deggans, NPR’s How I Built This producer J.C. Howard, and filmmaker and pop culture critic Joelle Monique to delve into the latest season of the iconic British science fiction series, Doctor Who. The discussion navigates through the show’s evolution, its new direction under Disney’s streaming, and the fresh take on representation and storytelling.

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1. Introduction to the New Season

Glen Weldon opens the conversation by highlighting the significant changes in the latest season of Doctor Who. The Doctor, now portrayed by Ncuti Gatwa—a black, queer actor of Rwandan and Scottish descent—marks a pivotal shift in the series' legacy. This season also sees the return of showrunner Russell T. Davies, known for revitalizing the series in 2005.

Glen Weldon [03:20]:
"The new Doctor is young and vibrant and intensely passionate about doing what the Doctor does, which is saving lives. He is also black."

2. Guest Perspectives on the New Doctor

J.C. Howard expresses excitement about the new incarnation, noting the show’s balance between honoring its rich lore and making it accessible to new audiences.

J.C. Howard [04:36]:
"Doctor Who was not exactly cool, but kind of nerd chic when you had, like, David Tennant and Matt Smith. But this season is meant to be an on ramp for new audiences. And that is super exciting to me."

Conversely, Eric Deggans shares his journey as a longtime fan, appreciating the show’s ability to evolve without losing its core essence.

Eric Deggans [08:10]:
"I've been watching the show since Tom Baker was the Doctor, making new episodes. I do love what they've done with this show."

Joelle Monique highlights the importance of representation, praising the show’s embrace of queer identities and diverse relationships.

Joelle Monique [06:16]:
"Representation matters. We have drag queen singing and trans people making music and outfits that are so good."

3. Representation and Diversity

The panel delves deep into how the new season handles themes of race and queerness. Joelle Monique emphasizes the shift towards more authentic and subtle portrayals of diverse identities.

Joelle Monique [15:28]:
"If you're going to address race, if you're going to talk about these subjects, it's a really awesome thing to do... examining what a negative audience might think."

Eric Deggans builds on this by discussing the show's balance between progressive themes and maintaining its British identity.

Eric Deggans [14:53]:
"It talks way more about being queer than it does about race... This is a show even though it's about the stars, it is very much grounded in being British and it is very much grounded in reflect humanity."

4. Storytelling and Thematic Exploration

The conversation shifts to the narrative techniques and thematic depth of the current season. The guests commend the show for seamlessly blending science fiction with supernatural elements, enhancing storytelling without relying heavily on technical jargon.

Joelle Monique [22:47]:
"Doctor Who is competing with shows like Star Trek and Star Wars. Finding a route in between those two spaces is intelligent, especially on the Disney platform."

Eric Deggans [24:16]:
"Having supernatural elements cuts down on all the technobabble and nonsense... It makes more room for some of the character stuff that we're really digging now."

5. Character Dynamics and Development

The chemistry between the Doctor and his new companion, Ruby Sunday (played by Millie Gibson), is a focal point of the discussion. Joelle Monique praises their relationship for its authenticity and representation of queer friendships.

Joelle Monique [26:40]:
"Having this sort of queer friendship, even when they're separated, there's no desperation... It's just very heteronormative relationships alongside a queer friendship."

Eric Deggans adds that Ruby's character brings a fresh perspective, fostering a dynamic where the fantastical elements of the show are embraced with openness.

Eric Deggans [24:31]:
"The type of person who would be a companion to the Doctor is the type of person who wouldn't be put off by stuff like that and would be more ready to say, I mean, once you've met a time traveling alien, is anything else really that weird?"

6. Addressing Fandom and Critical Reception

The panel touches upon the challenges of meeting fan expectations while attracting new viewers. Glen Weldon reminisces about Petra Mayer’s passion for the show and acknowledges the difficulties in balancing legacy elements with new directions.

Glen Weldon [09:53]:
"Watching this, I felt that very keenly because she was so passionate about the show... I was not looking forward to it."

The guests also discuss the critical reception, particularly critiques regarding the show being "too woke."

Joelle Monique [17:47]:
"Doctor Who has had queer coded characters since the 80s. If that's your criticism, you have not been watching the show."

7. Production Quality and Visuals

The conversation moves to the production aspects, where the guests appreciate the intentional blend of polished visuals with the show’s signature quirky special effects.

J.C. Howard [19:32]:
"With space babies, a lot of that fear was a leap because we’re staying with the weirdness... Boom is spectacular. It’s beautiful to look at, but intentionally weird."

Joelle Monique [20:35]:
"The Goblins really do it for me. The design works. It still feels like it’s made on a smaller budget but looks polished, which is a lot of fun."

8. Conclusion and Final Impressions

Wrapping up, the panel expresses overall enthusiasm for the new season, highlighting its successful integration of fresh perspectives, enhanced character dynamics, and thoughtful thematic explorations.

Glen Weldon [27:13]:
"Our collective reaction to this season is bubbling with enthusiasm."

Joelle Monique [27:15]:
"Dot and bubble with enthusiasm."

The episode underscores Doctor Who's enduring ability to innovate while honoring its rich legacy, making it a compelling watch for both longtime fans and newcomers alike.

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Notable Quotes:

• Joelle Monique [06:16]:
  "It's so gay. Representation matters."

• Eric Deggans [14:53]:
  "This is a show even though it's about the stars, it is very much grounded in being British and it is very much grounded in reflect humanity."

• J.C. Howard [04:36]:
  "This season is meant to be an on ramp for new audiences. And that is super exciting to me."

• Joelle Monique [26:40]:
  "Such a sub-level of queer friendships."

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For more discussions and insights on pop culture, tune into Pop Culture Happy Hour on NPR.

Transcript

[Glen Weldon]

This message comes from NPR Sponsor the Official Hacks Podcast from Max Hacks is back for another season and so is the podcast. Unpack each episode of Hacks with help from the creators, cast and crew. Listen to the Official Hacks Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. The venerable British science fiction series Doctor who is about an alien who travels through space and time in a blue box. Last season brought a lot of change. The Doctor is now played by an actor who is black and queer and who was born outside of the uk and it marked the return of the showrunner who birthed the modern era of Doctor who. What did this mix of new and old mean for this science fiction institution? Doctor who just returned for a new season on Disney, so we thought it was the perfect time to revisit our conversation about the series. I'm Glen Weldon and today we're talking about Doctor who on Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr.

[Sarah Levy]

Support for NPR and the following message come from Betterment, the automated investing and savings app. CEO Sarah Levy shares how Betterment utilizes tech tools powered by human advice.

[Glen Weldon]

Betterment is here to help customers build wealth their way and we provide powerful technology and complete human support where technology can deliver ease of use and affordability.

[Eric Deggans]

And the people behind that technology can.

[Glen Weldon]

Provide advice and guide.

[Sarah Levy]

Learn [e-mail] investing involves risk, performance not guaranteed.

[Glen Weldon]

This message comes from NPR sponsor. The official Hacks Podcast from Max Hacks is back for another season and so is the podcast. Unpack each episode of Hacks with help from the creators, cast and crew. Listen to the official Hacks podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sarah Levy]

This message comes from Thuma. Create your oasis with Thuma, a modern design company that specializes in furniture and home goods by stripping away everything but the essential. Thema makes elevated beds with premium materials and intentional details with clean lines, subtle curves and minimalist style. The Thuma Bed collection is available in four signature finishes to match any design aesthetic. To get $100 towards your first bed purchase, go to Thuma Co NPR this message comes from Pemco Mutual Insurance Company. You know that moment when things take an unexpected turn and you get that sudden sinking feeling that maybe it could have been avoided? Pemco Insurance wants to help you avoid that feeling by sharing prevention tips that empower you to prevent some of life's preventable pitfalls? Because Pemco's commitment to their customers goes beyond the moment of acclaim, it's about being with their customers every day. [e-mail] prevention Joining me today is NPR.

[Glen Weldon]

TV critic Eric Deggans. Hey, Eric.

[Eric Deggans]

Hey.

[Glen Weldon]

Hey. Also with us is NPR's How I Built this producer, J.C. howard. Hello. Hello.

[J.C. Howard]

Hello.

[Glen Weldon]

And rounding up the panel is filmmaker, pop culture critic, and iHeartRadio producer Joelle Monique. Hey, Joelle.

[Joelle Monique]

Hey, Gwen.

[J.C. Howard]

Hey.

[Glen Weldon]

Let's get to it. This is gonna be fun. We are not going to outline a history of a television show that launched in 1963. Trust me, there's a wiki for that.

[Eric Deggans]

I'm outta here.

[J.C. Howard]

Yep.

[Eric Deggans]

I wanted to talk at least about Tom Baker.

[Glen Weldon]

Come on, we are gonna get in the weeds and the weeds are gonna be thick. But basically, the do Doctor is a Time Lord. He is the last of an alien species who could travel anywhere in the universe thanks to a machine called a tardis. Time Lords can also regenerate themselves, taking on new appearances and Personas every time they do. Which is to say, the show very early on figured out an ingenious way to swap out its lead character and keep going and going and going. The latest doctor, the 15th, if you're keeping score, is played by Nshuti Gatwa. Gatwa is of Rwandan Scottish descent. His Doctor is young and vibrant and intensely passionate about doing what the Doctor does, which is saving lives. He is also black.

[J.C. Howard]

Name? The Doctor.

[Joelle Monique]

Occupation?

[J.C. Howard]

Not a Doctor.

[Joelle Monique]

Current status?

[J.C. Howard]

Just passing by.

[Eric Deggans]

And Dwyer myself.

[J.C. Howard]

Address that blue box over there. Now, if you don't mind, I just got snowmanned and I would like to go home.

[Glen Weldon]

His traveling companion this season is the brave and resourceful Earthling Ruby Sunday, played by Millie Gibson. This season also marks the return of showrunner Russell T. Davies, who is known for creating the modern era of Doctor who. He revived the series back in 2005 after it had been off the air for many years. Doctor who is streaming on Disney here in the States. Jc, kick us off. What'd you think?

[J.C. Howard]

Okay, so I have to say for longtime listeners of pchh, you will know that in the past year or so, at least two or three of my what's making me happies have been Doctor who related.

[Glen Weldon]

So this is true.

[J.C. Howard]

This episode is my jam. I have been a Whovian for, I think, 15 years or so and have gone deep, deep into the lore. And for a few years, I will say that Doctor who was not exactly cool, but kind of nerd chic when you had, like, David Tennant and Matt Smith in this, like, era of boyish charm. But by and large, over the last 60 years, over the 60 year history of the show, it was weird, you know, and in some ways, I feel like we're getting back to that with this season. The first couple episodes of this season were a good reminder to me that Doctor who is kind of supposed to be weird and niche and a little bit embarrassing to explain to people.

[Glen Weldon]

We'll get to the space babies. Yes, we will.

[J.C. Howard]

Yes, yes, we'll get to the space babies of it all. But this is an invitation to me again to just let the Doctor be weird. And I will say, since the third episode or so, I feel like things have leveled out and gotten to a kind of a norm, and I'm super into it. I have qualms about the writing, and I feel like the episodes could have been ordered differently. But by and large, I think that this season is meant to be an on ramp for new audiences. And that is super exciting to me. Like, you don't need 60 years of lore to start. If you have that lore. If you've been watching since 2005 or since the 80s or the 70s, great. There's going to be payoff for everyone. But it's an on ramp for everybody.

[Glen Weldon]

That's interesting. That's an interesting approach. I hadn't thought about it that way. Joelle, what about you? How are you liking this so far, babe?

[Joelle Monique]

It's so gay.

[Glen Weldon]

Okay. All right.

[Joelle Monique]

Y'all are PCHH listeners, you know, is usually my lead for a show that I really enjoy. Representation, it matters. We have drag queen singing and trans people making music and outfits that are so good.

[Eric Deggans]

So many cool outfits. So many, yes.

[Joelle Monique]

That really evolve the character of the Doctor quite a lot. I love the Doctor. I love a man on an arc. I love a man dealing with his trauma. And I'm really excited to move sort of beyond the repressed rage we've been feeling with Dr. For a long time. You know, for understandable reasons, he survived a genocide. But we are moving into a space where I really feel like this is a doctor who's out of the closet. Not in a queer way, but in a very. This is who I am. I am now very comfortable with this identity of myself, and I'm embracing the reality of my choices in the past, which we've seen the Doctor do a lot of running. If you're a frequent watcher, sure. You don't get the sense of fleeing anymore. Like, this is a very grounded doctor in a way I think we haven't had in a long time. And in shooty, like, I follow him off a cliff. What a magnetic personality. What. What a face.

[Eric Deggans]

Be careful about that now. You might actually have to Go off a cliff.

[Joelle Monique]

Would do. Would do. He is an incredible performer and he makes you believe all the things you need to believe in order for this show to work, which is that this is a person who, above all else, really loves human beings and believes in the best in them. It's really a challenge, I think, for an actor to get into that level of, I don't even want to say emotional vulnerability, but, like, purity. Like, like there's a. There's a. A belief, a hope in him and like. Yeah, you trust it. You trust it. I hope we get him as a Doctor for a very long time. I'm very much enjoying the series.

[Glen Weldon]

Yes, excellent, excellent. How about you, Eric?

[Eric Deggans]

Yeah, well, I'm gonna co sign all of that. And I'm an odd Doctor who fan in that I've been watching the show since Tom Baker was the Doctor making new episodes.

[J.C. Howard]

Yep, me too.

[Eric Deggans]

That's a very long time. But I'm also not somebody who gets caught up in the minutiae of things, and I haven't watched it with that level of detail the whole time since the mid-70s.

[Glen Weldon]

Good for you.

[J.C. Howard]

Trust me, it's a lot to keep in your brain.

[Eric Deggans]

Yeah, it is a lot. It is a lot. And I could be like Donna Noble and my head would just explode if I pay too much attention to it. There you go.

[Glen Weldon]

Don't mention.

[Eric Deggans]

Can I get my blurred crack now? Can I get my blurred Correct. Anyway, I do love what they've done with this show. I will admit it took me a little while to warm up to this new vision of the Doctor, particularly in the space babies episode, which I love for a lot of reasons. But also it is very elementary school level Doctor, you know, that thing they're spoon feeding you the backstory so that all the new people who might be attracted by being on Disney can jump on board and understand the stakes. And that's awesome. When you've been watching it for a while, it can feel a little tedious. Sometimes I get the feeling that the show is revving up. It's like, slowly engaging and the episodes are getting more complex. They're asking deeper questions. I will say that I've always felt that the most compelling character in Doctor who is the Doctor. And I feel like the show does lose its way when it loses sight of that. And I want to learn more about this Doctor who does not want to learn more about himself because of all the stuff he'd have to face once he does that. So I'm looking forward to years of exploring this. But I do think that's key to making the show as good as it can be.

[Glen Weldon]

Yeah, that's a great point. You know, guys, I miss our friend and colleague Petra Mayer so much, but watching this, I felt that very keenly because she was so passionate about the show. She was passionate about what Russell T. Davies brought. She was even more passionate, not always in a good way, what Steven Moffat brought to it and had thoughts about the treatment of women on this show. But I was worried. Right. Yeah. I'm a fan of Russell T. Davies, but returning to a property a decade after you launched it that way, doth Phantom Menace lie. And I was not looking forward to it.

[Eric Deggans]

Do not dare speak that name.

[Glen Weldon]

Harsh. That was the danger. Right? I mean, the Christmas episode which launched the season didn't really connect with me because I felt we were back in that first companion. We're back in Rose Tyler territory.

[Joelle Monique]

Are you coming for Rose Tyler now? What is even happening to our relationship, Glenn? Like, I'm just very confused right now.

[Glen Weldon]

I don't want to go back to Rose Tyler. I want to move forward. Joelle. Forward into it. Evidently. Space babies, where there were these babies and crawlers on a spaceship and I.

[Eric Deggans]

A bad guy made out of boogers. Oh, come on.

[J.C. Howard]

Yeah, the literal boogeyman.

[Joelle Monique]

A fart to save the day. Glenn, does it get better?

[Glen Weldon]

I kind of hated everything about it, but frankly, it was space babies that made me worry that we were watching the Disneyfication of who? Because in the uk, Disney is just another streaming service, but here in the States, it's got a whole family friendly thing. And who has always been a show for the whole family. Right, but in the uk, they're perfectly fine with their kids cowering behind the couch in abject fear. Yes, that's not our vibe here in the States. Right. Disney is known for inflicting emotional trauma here. Kill Bambi's mom but not terrifying children. That's a UK thing. Right. And then the double score. Jinx. Monsoon's great. I'll always go, I'm here for a dance number. But I felt like we were still flailing around. I wasn't getting a bead on this new Doctor who. He is. But from then on, for me anyway, it's been all hits, no skips. I mean, in the episode Boom, the Doctor steps on a landmine and gets to go off on the military industrial complex. And he goes off on faith. He calls faith an excuse for allowing yourself not to think.

[J.C. Howard]

I mean, most armies would notice that they were fighting smoke and shadows, but not this lot, Ruby. You know why? Because they have faith. Shut up. Faith, the magic word that keeps you never having to think for yourself.

[Glen Weldon]

In the uk, which is a very secularist Anglican country, that line is gonna breeze by without hitting anybody. But here in the US and on Disney, a line like that felt kind of, I mean, to me, bracing and kind of a mission statement. And I kind of leaned forward on the sofa that just stuck out to me. Am I making too much of that, do you guys think?

[Joelle Monique]

Not at all. Not at all. I feel you in that if we get a Disney fication of Doctor who, then we're getting an Americanized version of Doctor who, which is not at all palatable to me. Like, it is steeped in its Britishness for a reason. It has to REM in that way. And so. And what. We can talk about this more as we talk about some of these newer episodes, later episodes, but it definitely seems like somebody was planting flags to be like, what we're not doing is moving from this space, like, this is Doctor who. But I also feel like they tucked it back a little in a way, so that this is a show that has dealt with its fandom, that understands that occasionally we come at Crossroads, and we know what that, you know, as Star wars fans, what that can do to a fandom, that's really detrimental. And so to tuck some of the more potentially controversial episodes a little later I think is really brilliant and allows you to sort of come into the show, get used to this idea of the new Doctor, which can be jarring for some folks, and then plant the flag to say, hey, not only is this the new Doctor, but we're really standing behind. It feels like we're also standing behind this performer with some of these themes.

[Eric Deggans]

One thing that I would say is that Doctor who has always had an element of being a kid show. I felt it was more Davey saying, we're never going to lose sight of the fact that this started as a kid show, and part of its identity is that it appeals to kids in an odd way.

[Glen Weldon]

And to odd kids.

[Eric Deggans]

Yeah, to odd kids like me. So that's part of it. But that statement about faith, that I thought was interesting, it's also an irony, because the Doctor has faith in humanity, and that's what distinguishes the character so much. So to have him sort of give a little shade to faith, while he's also very much the embodiment of faith in humanity was also, I thought, kind of brilliant. Now, the thing that strikes me about the show now, and maybe we'll See this change in the future. I interviewed Davies and he says they're gonna talk about race more directly on the show. It talks way more about being queer than it does about race. And in a way you can justify it by saying, you know, this alien is sort of beyond that. But this is a show even though it's about the stars, it is very much grounded in being British and it is very much grounded in reflect humanity, even in the alien societies that it operates in. So to have the show kind of shrug off race, that's the one thing that doesn't make a lot of sense. And at some point they got to deal with it.

[Joelle Monique]

Well, Eric, if I can. We have had queer moments with the Doctor. Never anything. Yeah, well, a little bit direct, a little bit with Jack. There's like a lot. There's a lot of heavy flirtation, a lot of heavy petting.

[Glen Weldon]

We know the character of Jack Harkness. Yes.

[Joelle Monique]

Yeah. So we know for a fact that, like, queerness in general for this Doctor is something the show's dealt with, understands. It's something the fan base has already had to come to terms with. I think leading with queerness makes sense. And also I think when the show does dive into race and you haven't gotten there yet, but when it does, it does it in such a truly mind blowing. Can we just talk about the episode Dot and Bubble?

[Glen Weldon]

Yes. Okay. I too had been growing impatient with this show's unwillingness to address the Doctor's race. And one could argue like in a world of like, murderous salt shakers and slug monsters and lizard people, you could make the argument that skin color is a distinctly human hang up and you can just plow past it. And Eric, when you watch the episode Dot and Bubble, as this episode begins, we are on this world where everybody is kind of addicted to social media and it seems like. Well, I don't know, you guys tell me. It seems at the beginning we're getting a very boomer disdain for Gen Z and their cell phones and their avocado toast.

[J.C. Howard]

Yeah. It feels like just a black mirror episode that's just about how these kids are so stuck on their ph.

[Glen Weldon]

Yes, exactly.

[J.C. Howard]

It changes. It changes, I would say, kind of several times. It does confront it head on in a way that's subtle, which is something that we haven't really gotten in the past of Doctor who when it has dealt with things like race. I think back to the episode Rosa from the Chris Chibnall era, and it was so ham fisted. This is a criticism that Chris Chibnall got all the time. The last showrunner, Chris Chibnall, got all the time. And there are some that have that same criticism for Davis now is that the Doctor who has gone too woke because of the queer and trans characters and you know, the Doctor dealing with capitalism.

[Eric Deggans]

Have they been watching the show at all?

[J.C. Howard]

Right, exactly. That is my biggest problem with it is that like, I can only meet that critique with the long and ever arching eye roll. Because like, Doctor who has had queer coded characters since the 80s. The first episode was directed by a queer man of color. So like, if that's your criticism, you have not been watching the show. But I will say that the writing in the Chibnall era and even some in this season that we're watching is as subtle as a thumb to the eye. Like, I will admit that even for me, I felt big time cringe with some of it. We're talking about, you know, Russell T. Davis, Steven Moffat writing some of these episodes and they're 60 year old white dudes. So like them writing about progressive issues. The writing isn't exactly what I would have written. Like, you do not have to tell me that this is a critique on war and capitalism when you're standing on a battlefield. Like, I get it, I got that already. So I don't think that the show is too woke. That criticism is definitely not merited. But I will say that some of the writing is a little bit too on the nose even for me.

[Glen Weldon]

Yeah, yeah, I get that.

[Joelle Monique]

What I really enjoyed about Dot and Bubble was the way it sort of switched through genre. Right. If you start off it's sort of teen dystopian vibe, then it's maybe like a fantasy romance for a hot second and then you get a parasite level bomb drop at the end where you're like, oh, I see. This was the critique. It's one of those. At least for me on a, on a second viewing I was like, oh, not subtle at all. But the setup for it specifically, just that episode, you're just like, oh, all of the layers are really here and it's really working on a deeper level to kind of point the finger. What I, what I like is like, if you're going to address race, if you're going to talk about these subjects, and if you are not somebody who has experience living in a body of a different color, it's a really awesome thing to do. To be like, what if I just pointed the finger back at the audience?

[Glen Weldon]

Exactly.

[Joelle Monique]

What if I didn't try to embody those shoes? But if I examined what a negative audience might. How they might interact with this series, which I thought was brilliant.

[Glen Weldon]

Exactly. Because the thing that you're given this opportunity with this character, with the show, to do a thing that literally no other character or show could do, which is why I was so excited when. Shoot. They got what was hired. Because it's like, now he can be a person who has been white and is now no longer white. How does that affect things? Nobody else. There is no other character you can think of who could do that.

[Eric Deggans]

And the question is, what does that look like in a show where, again, everything about it is so British?

[Glen Weldon]

True, true, true.

[Eric Deggans]

That's what disappointed me so much about the Chibnall era, is that we had a character who went from being male to being female. They hardly ever dealt with that.

[J.C. Howard]

Just breeze past it.

[Glen Weldon]

Exactly.

[Eric Deggans]

One of the things that I also love about this new iteration. It's shot so well. The special effects are so awesome. And when they're not, they're deliberately not. And you enjoy it because, again, that's a part of Doctor who is like chintzy special effects. Right?

[J.C. Howard]

So, no, listen, like, I think back to the 2005 revival, and you had the worst special effects, the worst costumes. You know, like the farting aliens in Downing street, those rubber costumes were the worst. And that is some of the thing that makes Doctor who charming. So I was like, oh, no. Like, it's not going to be this super polished thing, is it? And I will say again, with space babies, a lot of that fear was a leap because, like, I was just like, this is going to be a weird thing. Like, we're staying with the weirdness. And even the graphics that are better, like, especially. Boom. Is spectacular. Like, it's beautiful to look at, you know, as a whole, the show can still be weird. I want it to be able to do both. I want it to be as beautiful and as polished as it possibly can be. But intentionally. Exactly as you're saying, Eric, intentionally weird.

[Joelle Monique]

Yeah. I mean, especially when we look at, like, the Church of Ruby Road. The Goblins really do it. For me, the design of them really works. I think the shots back and forth so that you're getting, like, a lot of isolation. You could still. It's still feels like it's being made on a smaller budget. You still get the feeling of, like, oh, this is play in almost a theatrical level of play. But it looks good, it looks polished, and that's a lot of fun, I think, and hopefully a little bit easier to convert, folks where you're like, I know you would like this. If you could just get over the visual landscape of the series.

[Eric Deggans]

Yeah, the Daleks.

[Glen Weldon]

I don't know.

[Eric Deggans]

You could just get over watching deadly trash cans with plungers attached to the top of them.

[J.C. Howard]

Salt and pepper shakers, baby. Yeah.

[Glen Weldon]

I don't know. I'm always gonna have a soft spot in my heart for the giant invisible space chicken from the Van Gogh episode.

[Joelle Monique]

Classic.

[J.C. Howard]

Yes, Vincent and the Doctor.

[Glen Weldon]

Let me ask you all a question. Are you who purists? Because this show has never been what anyone would call hard science fiction. But in every episode up to now, when something seemingly supernatural happens, it's always the Scooby Doo answer. It's always monsters, aliens, robots. It's always grounded in science fiction. This season is a hard pivot into the supernatural. Now there is an in universe cause of that because the previous Doctor spilled salt at the edge of the universe. I don't understand it either, but that is a new direction. Does that matter to you, that Doctor who is now going into a little bit of the woo woo?

[Joelle Monique]

No. I think from like a literary standpoint, if we look at the larger world of just books, like we are seeing a slam for science fiction and fantasy into each other where we're crossing the genres back and forth in a very heavy and considerate way. And so I think to do that here, particularly as we look at the other science fiction shows, this series competing with like, you know, Star Trek will always be pure science fiction. That's the aim of it. Star wars is pure fantasy. Finding a route in between those two spaces I think is intelligent, especially if you're going to be boosting this out to the world on the Disney platform. It gives you a space sort of in the middle to cross for people who might be purists on either side say there's space for both sides within this ip.

[J.C. Howard]

I am also not very bothered by it. You have a lot more supernatural elements in this season. The boogeyman, Welsh fairy circles, pantheon of gods. And I think that's fine. One of the characteristics of Doctor who is when you think you have all the answers, the Doctor literally changes their face. But I will say the issue that I have with it is I kind of need the companion to be a little bit more like, wait, what? But this doesn't exist. Like the companion is meant to be a stand in for the audience. Right. In this case it's Ruby Sunday and I just need a little more incredulity. When we see Ruby faced with literal baby stealing goblins like I need her to be like, wait, goblins don't exist? You know, like, I didn't get a lot of that. So I do want the companion to be a little bit more incredulous about it, but I don't mind a little dabbling in the world of supernatural and fantasy.

[Eric Deggans]

I will push back a little bit on that to say that one of the things that I'm enjoying about the new Doctor who is that the type of person who would be a companion to the Doctor is the type of person who wouldn't be put off by stuff like that and would be more ready to say, I mean, once you've met a time traveling alien, is anything else really that weird?

[J.C. Howard]

Yeah, everything is on the table at that point. Yeah.

[Eric Deggans]

And so I'm kind of digging the idea that in this sort of altered, you know, again, weird universe, humans come to accept, you know, that they inhabit a universe that's filled with all this crazy stuff, like, much more readily than we would.

[J.C. Howard]

That's true.

[Eric Deggans]

And so I'm really enjoying seeing them explore. And in a weird way, having supernatural elements to stories cuts down on all the technobabble and nonsense that they have to say to get you from point A to point Z in a story. And they can just kind of say, it was God who did that. It makes the storytelling a little leaner and makes more room for some of the character stuff that we're really digging now.

[Joelle Monique]

Yeah, I really like Ruby Sunday. She's an interesting character. Even the way we sort of meet her, it's interesting. We always come into a companion's life at a moment of. Of crisis or personal change slash growth, where they're in this moment where they're like, I think I need to be doing something different. But when we come in to Ruby's life, she's really just trying to learn more about herself in a very, again, grounded way. I find myself drawn to Ruby and I think maybe it's because, you know, we've talked a little bit about, like, the way the show has explored queerness. The Doctor's on a character who easily embraces romantic love. So I don't think we're gonna get a lot of that across this series. It's just not really who the character is. So how are we exploring queerness? I think it's through friendship and this idea of a character like Ruby, who is immediately just on board. We see her friends before she meets the Doctor. They're all very queer. She, like, performs for lesbians at a bar. Like, yeah, yep, it's Just, it's a culturally queer friendship, which I really love, which is like, I'm not gonna second guess what you're doing. You're on your own trajectory. I just want to. Can I just tag along? Cool. I'm with you. Like, let's go. You're my dude. It's kind of wonderful to see this relationship not through the eyes of, like, two CIS heterosexual people. Even when there isn't sexual tension between the Doctor and his companion, there's always this sort of like, are you gonna go out with that guy? Are you with him? There's. There's a lot of, like, it's just very heteronormative relationships. And again, nothing wrong with that. But to see this sort of queer friendship, even when they're separated, there isn't this desperation of. Of. I have to get back to the doctor. It's such an easy, like, oh, well, maybe this is just what you do and who you are. Okay, I'll accept that. I have to go along. And I was like, wow. I mean, it was just. It was really speaking to me on a. On a sub level of queer friendships. And I. I value that. And I. I really enjoyed seeing it and having it in the series.

[J.C. Howard]

I will agree. I love Ruby Sunday, and I think that the Doctor and Ruby's chemistry is off the charts. What's your name?

[Glen Weldon]

Ruby.

[Joelle Monique]

Ruby Sunday.

[J.C. Howard]

Hello, Ruby Sunday.

[Eric Deggans]

And it's a Sunday right?

[J.C. Howard]

Now, that's a coincidence. I'm the Doctor.

[Eric Deggans]

Hi.

[Joelle Monique]

I met you before.

[J.C. Howard]

Yep. Although I will say Judy could have chemistry with a CVS receipt.

[Joelle Monique]

Absolutely.

[Eric Deggans]

That's a. That's the next episode.

[Glen Weldon]

Okay. Well, I think we would characterize our collective reaction to this season as bubbling with enthusiasm.

[J.C. Howard]

I would say dot and bubbling with enthusiasm.

[Glen Weldon]

Dot and bump. It was right there. It was right there. Well, we don't know what you think about Doctor who. Find [e-mail] PCHH and that brings us to the end of our show. Joelle Monique, Eric Deggans, J.C. howard, thank you so much for being here.

[J.C. Howard]

Thank you for having us.

[Eric Deggans]

Thank you.

[Joelle Monique]

Thanks, Glenn.

[Glen Weldon]

This episode was produced by Hafsa Fathoma and edited by Mike Katsif. Our supervising producer is Jessica Reedy, and hello. Come in. Provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. I'm Glenn Welding, and we'll see you all tomorrow.

[Sarah Levy]

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