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- [00:00]
Advertiser
This message comes from Discover, accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. If you don't think so, maybe it's time to face facts. You're stuck in the past. Based on the February 2024 Nielsen report. More@discover.com credit card this message comes from DSW. Where'd you get those shoes? Easy. They're from DSW because DSW has the exact right shoes for whatever you're into right now. You know, like the sneakers that make office hours feel like happy hour, the boots that turn grocery aisles into runways, and all the styles that show off the many sides of you, from daydreamer to multitasker and everything in between. Because you do it all in really great shoes. Find a shoe for every you at your DSW store or dsw.com.
- [00:53]
Aisha Harris
Okay, so the premise might be a tough sell. A young woman attempts to finally own her sexuality following a term terminal diagnosis. And sometimes the new show Dying for Sex, is a Challenge. It stars Michelle Williams as a cancer patient confronting the unsatisfying relationships in her life, both romantic and familial. But believe it or not, the series is also really freaking funny and horny. It's a raunchy sex comedy that suggests it's never too late to insist on your own happiness. And it's got a stellar cast that includes Jenny Slate, Rob Delaney and Sissy Spacek. I'm Aisha Harris, and today we're talking about Dying for Sex on Pop Culture Happy hour from NPR.
- [01:35]
Advertiser
This message comes from BetterHelp. Therapy can be expensive, but at BetterHelp, they believe therapy should feel accessible, not like a luxury, which is why they offer quality care at a price that makes sense and can help you with anything from anxiety to everyday stress. Your mental health is worth it, and now it's within reach. Visit betterhelp.com NPR to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.com NPR this message comes from Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com, progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. This message comes from Amica Insurance. As Amica says, empathy is our best policy. Whether you're seeking auto, home or life coverage, they'll work with you to choose the policy that best serves you and your family. Discover how Amica can help protect what matters most to you today. Go to amica.com and get a quote today. This message comes from Thuma. Create your oasis with Thuma, a modern design company that specializes in furniture and home goods by stripping away everything but the essential. Thuma makes elevated beds with premium materials and intentional details with clean lines, subtle curves and minimalist style. The Thuma Bed collection is available in four signature finishes to match any design aesthetic. To get $100 towards your first bed purchase, go to Thuma Co, NPR. This message comes from Progressive Insurance. Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com, progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.
- [03:29]
Aisha Harris
Joining me today is the host of NPR's It's Been a Minute, Brittany Luce. Welcome back, Brittany.
- [03:33]
Brittany Luce
Thank you for having me.
- [03:34]
Aisha Harris
Great to have you. Also with us is writer Kat Chow. Welcome back to you, too, Kat.
- [03:39]
Kat Chow
Thanks for having me.
- [03:39]
Aisha Harris
Thanks to you both for being here. So a quick heads up. Dying for Sex is sexually explicit and it also touches on issues related to sexual abuse. And we're going to be talking about that today. In the series, Michelle Williams is Molly, who's diagnosed with stage four breast cancer. The diagnosis causes her to reevaluate how she wants to spend her remaining time. And she separates from Steve, her inattentive and unaffectionate husband with a savior complex. He's played by Jay Duplass. Molly sets out on a personal journey to enjoy sex for the first time in her life. I actually don't know what I like or what I want. I've never even had an orgasm with another person and now I'm gonna die. The show also follows Molly's best friend, Nikki, played by Jenny Slate. Nikki gamely steps in to be her primary caretaker, but this presents its own challenges to their friendship and to Nikki's personal life and career. I saw Steve and I got your.
- [04:38]
Advertiser
Records from him and now they're not in my bag.
- [04:42]
Aisha Harris
You lost my records? Well, they were in my bag. I'm just. Your bag is a black hole.
- [04:46]
Brittany Luce
I hate your bag.
- [04:47]
Aisha Harris
I've always hated your bag. You need to clean your bag. You need to organize your bag.
- [04:50]
Advertiser
Okay.
- [04:53]
Aisha Harris
Very relatable. My bag is also a black hole. Dying for Sex was inspired by the life of Molly Cochin, who shared her experiences on the Wondry podcast of the same name, which was released nearly a year after her death. It's streaming on Hulu now. Brittany, I'm gonna start with you. And as I've already kind of suggested this show, it really really tries to balance the tragedy and the comedy of this person's life. And I'm curious what you made of this and how you reacted overall to what the show is trying to do.
- [05:26]
Brittany Luce
I really enjoyed watching this show. There's so many great performances. Michelle Williams, of course, yes. Jenny Slade is so good. Rob Delaney's so good. Sissy Spacek's so good. I mean, there's so many phenomenal performances throughout that even if things in the plot were a little convenient or like a little twee, I asked myself a question where I was like, okay, I feel like it's a bit of an exaggeration or a bit of fantasy in the way that it's constructed in dealing with illness and grief and death. As somebody who's done some caregiving, some of, like, the best gossip sessions of my life have happened during those times. You know what I mean?
- [06:08]
Aisha Harris
Right, exactly.
- [06:09]
Brittany Luce
I think I thought, if anybody deserves a fantasy, it is this woman or people in her situation that deserve that. Like, why not? You know what I mean? There's so many. I mean, there's fantastical films about. God knows what. I'm like, why can't this woman have all of these amazing coincidences and conveniences pop up in her life so that she can become the greatest stage 4 cancer dom of all of Brooklyn?
- [06:33]
Aisha Harris
Why not her?
- [06:33]
Brittany Luce
Why not her? But also very true to real life, some of the actual funniest moments of your life can happen when you are looking at very serious illness or death. But, yeah, I laughed, I cried, I gasped. At times, I thirsted over Rob Delaney. I had a good time.
- [06:52]
Kat Chow
Oh, Rob Delaney.
- [06:53]
Brittany Luce
Yeah, the graying chest hair. Wow.
- [06:56]
Aisha Harris
Yeah, he was good. Yes, yes. Rob Delaney, Actually, he plays neighbor guy. I think that's all he's ever called in the show. And he winds up living across from the Molly character. And they have, like, a very fascinating journey together of, like, hating each other, but then turning that hate into lust and something like love. But, yeah, Kat, I'd love to hear what you thought about that and so much more.
- [07:24]
Kat Chow
First of all, I, you know, should have gotten a bigger clue from the title, Dying for Sex. And I knew intellectually that this was a show about somebody who is terminally ill. And I should have been more prepared for the ending, which is when Molly, the character, actually died. And so I was just so moved by that ending. And, of course, as the show is progressing, I found myself liking it more and more, But I was really mixed at the jump because I just wanted more. I wanted more of this character development. So that I could see the friendship dynamics between Molly and also Nikki. Just how messy that is. You know, when we're friends with someone for 20 years, things are just so, so layered. And we kind of just got this really finite snapshot of this moment. So in my eyes, I was like, okay, Molly has one family member. That's Sissy Spacek, who is just like the most infuriating mom character ever. We were like, I wanted to pull my hair out in scenes.
- [08:26]
Aisha Harris
A mother with zero boundaries.
- [08:28]
Kat Chow
Zero boundaries, yes. And then also she has her one friend. I just kept thinking, like, what else does she want besides sex? But under the tight focus of this series called Dying for Sex, it makes sense, but I found myself just craving a little more. Does she have a career? Is she worried about money?
- [08:49]
Aisha Harris
That was the thing that really struck me, was I don't know if we ever get a hint of what she did, because part of Molly's journey, and this was apparently true of the real life Molly as well, who inspired this story, is that she had previously had cancer. And then this new diagnosis, it's like it's come back, or like a different version has come back now. And so you get the sense that, like, Steve, her husband, was, like, caretaking for her for a while. So, like, she hasn't necessarily had a career for a long time.
- [09:20]
Kat Chow
Right.
- [09:20]
Aisha Harris
But, like, what could that have been before? Or did it exist? And, like, she had a 401k from.
- [09:25]
Brittany Luce
That time that she lived off of. But that's all we find out.
- [09:30]
Aisha Harris
The show, I guess, isn't afraid to at least explain a little bit as to how she's able to afford these things. Like, she separates from Steve, but she stays with him legally so that she.
- [09:41]
Kat Chow
Can support his health insurance, for his health insurance.
- [09:43]
Aisha Harris
So, like, that is understood. But, like, we also have to recognize that, like, so many people who are going through this do not have any of those types of resources, and they often don't have someone like Sonia, who is the palliative care social worker who's at the hospital where Molly's receiving her care. Sonia is played by Esco Jolle. I will say, overall, I really, really loved this show. I, like you both, was laughing. I shed a few tears. I also just love that real balance between any time there's a sad moment, it's undercut by humor. But also oftentimes when it's undercut by humor, then it's undercut by sadness again.
- [10:20]
Kat Chow
Yes, it's just that toggle.
- [10:22]
Aisha Harris
It's a toggle. And I think the show for the most part, handles it really well. And this is a show about exploration of yourself and learning to love yourself. I did struggle with the Sonya character just because they are a black queer character whose main purpose of being there. Yes. It's their job. They are a social worker. This is what they do. But there are times when it bordered on didactic a little bit in terms of, like, what their purpose was, which was to help Molly discover her own sexuality. I thought Sonya and Esko Jolie, who plays Sonya. Great performance. Loved it.
- [10:59]
Kat Chow
Yes. So good.
- [11:00]
Aisha Harris
But I also wanted a little bit more of, like, who Sonya is beyond being, like, a queer, sex positive, you know, social worker.
- [11:07]
Brittany Luce
Yeah. That is something that also I noticed. I mean. Cause it also wasn't just that Sonya was, for all intents and purposes, like almost a death doula. Like somebody who was really always present, always there. I was thinking my notes.
- [11:24]
Aisha Harris
I had other patients takes them to a sex party.
- [11:27]
Brittany Luce
Yes. When they all went to the sex party, I was like, hipaa violation. And then there's a scene where Molly meets Sonia's dom, Robbie Hoffman, played by Robbie Hoffman. Exactly. Where I was like, oh, my gosh. But yeah, there's like a moment where Molly goes to see Sonia's dom, who's played by Robbie Hoffman.
- [11:46]
Aisha Harris
G is the character's name.
- [11:48]
Kat Chow
Yes.
- [11:48]
Brittany Luce
Goes to see G. Yeah. Where G and Molly meet up is like, G works at. It looks like some type of Crate and Barrel esque type store.
- [11:54]
Kat Chow
Like West Elm. Yeah.
- [11:55]
Aisha Harris
Like a Pottery Barn or. Yeah.
- [11:57]
Brittany Luce
So then they go back to the stock group and there just happens to be a mattress back there for them to kind of like, connect and, you know, for Molly to open up.
- [12:06]
Kat Chow
And it's like, dimly lit in a good way, not in, like the gross fluorescent light way.
- [12:11]
Brittany Luce
I'm like, I've never been in a stock group that look like that. Never in all my years of retail did that happen.
- [12:15]
Aisha Harris
Yeah.
- [12:15]
Brittany Luce
That was also a moment where I was like, let me just suspend this disbelief. The woman is dying. She is dying.
- [12:23]
Aisha Harris
Yeah.
- [12:23]
Brittany Luce
I felt like it was well intended, but. Well, also another thing I noticed is that the only black people that the characters interacted with were, for the most.
- [12:31]
Aisha Harris
Part, in the health care world. Yes. Yes.
- [12:34]
Brittany Luce
Yeah, they were. I mean, they were their support staff, basically.
- [12:37]
Aisha Harris
Yeah.
- [12:37]
Brittany Luce
You know, I also know what it feels like to have black characters peppered in. In places where it didn't make sense. So it's not like I needed them to have like a black friend or something like that, But I just was like, did every black person you Needed to interact with. Be an employee at the hospital or.
- [12:52]
Aisha Harris
Yeah, and that's where I struggle. But I do think the fact that Sonja is more or less really integrated into the story, even if their only purpose is as, like, the death doula, it felt a little less egregious than, like, what I usually see. So, like, I appreciated that. And even if Sonya had to deliver some clunky lines about how black women tend to get even worse treatment from doctors, I'm curious what you both think about. Yes, it's about, like, the sexual misadventures of Molly, but it's also in other ways about, like, how you maintain your humanity within the healthcare system. And I'm curious what you thought about that. Cause I loved the Dr. Pankowitz character played by David Rasche, who's from Succession.
- [13:40]
Kat Chow
Also Carl.
- [13:42]
Aisha Harris
Carl, yes. Longtime character actor. Like, as soon as you see him, you're like, I've seen this guy. But, like, Molly has to teach him, like, bedside manner. And I thought, you know, that could have been didactic, but it felt different to me.
- [13:54]
Kat Chow
I'm glad you brought that up, because that was a scene I was thinking a lot about where it was almost like this sweet parallel after Molly learns how to be a dom super quickly from G. Super quickly. And suddenly it's like, wow, that was the fastest lesson ever. Like, you didn't even have to practice. And suddenly you're just, like, telling Rob Delaney and, like, all these other people to, like, I don't know, crawl on the floor. I will say, as like, a side note, before I actually answer your question, Aisha, I did think that at Kink stuff was rendered with care instead of it being a joke, which I think is just, like, very important for me to just say, absolutely. So that was nice to see that represented in a moving way. But I also think that it then served as a nice parallel between how Molly started to take charge more of her own care, because previously, her husband, J. Duplass, was just kind of controlling his way through the caretaking and not really giving her the agency that she wanted. And it came from a good place. Right. So it was really moving to see her be able to kind of articulate what she wanted.
- [15:00]
Aisha Harris
Yes. Yeah. I think that, for me, what I really appreciated was just the way Nikki, the Jenny Slate character, like, it's very complicated, their relationship, by the fact that, like, now that Molly decides to leave Steve now, it's like, oh, of course I'll be your caretaker. But, like, what does that mean? And I think the show does A really good job of putting that into context as well. We should say that on top of everything that's happening with Molly, she is also dealing with trauma from her childhood, having been sexually abused by her mother's boyfriend when she was around 7 years old. And that comes up throughout the show. And on top of Nikki having to take care of all of her medical needs, you start to see Molly kind of putting all of the trauma onto Nikki. There's a really kind of heartbreaking scene where Molly is finally describing for the first time in detail to Nikki, like, what happened to her. And Nikki suggests, like, I'm really glad you were able to share that, but, like, maybe you should talk to a professional. And Molly responds like, no, I can do it. I have you. And the look on Nikki's face, to me, that was like, one of the strongest moments of this show, because it really kind of put into context, like, what Nikki is dealing with. I mean, Nikki's life kind of falls apart as she's caring for her. And I think the show kind of juggles a lot of tones, and I think it also juggles complexities around, like, what that means, because by the time it ends, that is also kind of conveniently, in many ways tied up as well. Like her life. Nikki's life kind of surprisingly comes back together. She loses her job, her boyfriend.
- [16:37]
Brittany Luce
Oh, Calvin, you also so darling in this.
- [16:40]
Aisha Harris
Yes, yes. We've seen many stories about people who are experiencing, you know, terminal illness. We don't often see in so much detail what it's like for the caregivers. And I have not been a caregiver myself, but I have seen family members be caregivers. And at least from my sort of limited scope of things, it felt like a very real encapsulation of, like, what that emotional weight and toll and financial, frankly, because again, Nikki loses her job.
- [17:07]
Brittany Luce
Yeah.
- [17:09]
Kat Chow
I mean, it is a job, caretaking like that, right?
- [17:11]
Aisha Harris
Yeah.
- [17:12]
Kat Chow
And that's a job that Nikki didn't necessarily agree to. And there's this just really powerful scene where Molly and Nikki are talking, and Molly turns to Nikki and says, I.
- [17:24]
Aisha Harris
Told him I don't want to die with him.
- [17:27]
Advertiser
Oh, okay.
- [17:31]
Aisha Harris
I want to die with you.
- [17:32]
Kat Chow
That part also took my breath away, because I don't know if I were on the receiving end of that, I would feel so heartbroken if I were Nikki. But then also weirdly honored. But then scared. Just afraid.
- [17:45]
Aisha Harris
Yeah.
- [17:45]
Brittany Luce
I mean, I'm so glad you used the word honored, because that is one of the things that I felt caring for a Sick friend a few years back. And also that I feel like comes through so clearly in Nikki's character. For all the ways in which, like, her life does fall apart, she still ultimately feels so honored to be able to be there for Molly at the end of her life. And there's a really beautiful moment between Nikki and her boyfriend, on and off boyfriend Noah, where she's talking about how she didn't realize that you could love a person that much, much until going through this with Molly. And Noah says, like, oh, that's how basically he felt when his daughter was born. Nikki kind of says, you know, I know I'm not going to be there for the beginning of someone's life, but I can be there at the end of someone's life. And what family looks like is changing so much for people more and more with every generation, with every passing decade. It's not so conventional. It's not so cookie cutter. It's not like, you know, and also, too, when you look at the statistics of who cares for women when they get to the end of their lives, or who cares for women when they are looking down a cancer diagnosis or a terminal illness, and their husbands are, like, six times more likely to leave them when they receive a cancer diagnosis. Not saying that's what happened with the husband character in this series. Quite the opposite. And I liked the way they treated his character. He wasn't, like, all bad. Like, you kind of saw where he was coming from sometimes, but you're kind.
- [19:08]
Kat Chow
Of like, ugh, I can't be too mad at you. You mean so.
- [19:11]
Aisha Harris
Well, yeah, he wasn't too bad, but he also still, like, never was fully redeemed. Like, when he brings his new girlfriend to visit Molly in the hospital while she's getting chemo.
- [19:22]
Brittany Luce
Why do you think she would want to see.
- [19:24]
Kat Chow
I know, right? But then she does kind of quote unquote, like, win that situation when her lover comes and he's like, in a pup cuff.
- [19:31]
Aisha Harris
Attempted acting like a dog for sexual. Like, yes, that was quite funny.
- [19:35]
Brittany Luce
Being there for the end of someone's life, it is just as valuable as being there for the beginning of someone's life. I think that there are a lot of women who do a lot of work like that for their family members and for their friends, and it doesn't get the same value in society. And I thought that was really interesting.
- [19:50]
Kat Chow
I love that point that you make. And it just made me think, too, you know, when you were saying the way families are shaped now is just changing, I thought about how friendship can be so romantic, too, in so many ways. And I think that this is one of the shows that illustrates that pretty well. I loved that thinking about how your friend can actually just be your partner.
- [20:10]
Aisha Harris
Yeah. And I think it's so notable that the neighbor guy, Rob Delaney character, they have a moment. It blossoms into something that becomes more than just, you know, sex and lust. But at the same time, she's like. She says something along the lines of, like, I don't wanna die with you. I wanna, like, get a dog with you. But, like, that's her way of saying, like, I still want Nikki to be there for my last moments. And there is a romantic element, but it doesn't end in the way that you might, like a usual narrative might do. It's like, oh, of course. Like, she's moved on to a new man. And this is like, this is the true fulfillment. And it's like, he's gonna propose to.
- [20:45]
Kat Chow
Her on her deathbed.
- [20:46]
Aisha Harris
Right? Exactly. No, that's not what happened. Like, he served, like. I mean, the crude way of saying it is like, he served his purpose. And she's like, okay, I'm done with you now. But also, it's like, you brought purpose to my life. I appreciate you. Everything is for a season. And I thought it was just a really lovely moment that they had. And the fact that he doesn't appear in the final episode, it's like, this is interesting.
- [21:08]
Kat Chow
Yeah. I kind of liked that in the end, it was just Nikki, Molly and Molly's mom. That it was just these trio of women, and they were kind of just doing their own thing and quietly sitting with their own grief. I also thought that Michelle Williams acting in that last episode was just so beautiful, the way she portrayed someone who is actually about to die. I was like, this is just so carefully rendered. It was so heartfelt.
- [21:37]
Aisha Harris
This is really a show that, for all its suspension of disbelief, that you might have to do. I think overall, it's really well conceived, and the performances are what put it over the top, and that is what makes it. You stick around. And Michelle Williams, like, she's always great. I think this could be one of her best performances that I have seen of hers.
- [21:59]
Brittany Luce
Greed.
- [22:00]
Aisha Harris
And I've always loved Jenny Slate, and this just felt like a new thing for her in, like, the best way possible.
- [22:06]
Brittany Luce
Oh, my God. I wrote Oscar, like, one day. Oscar someday.
- [22:10]
Kat Chow
Like, she gave a lot of good comedic relief.
- [22:13]
Brittany Luce
One last thing I will say that I want to make sure that I mentioned that also really stuck out to me is there is In I believe the seventh episode is like an extended series of scenes that involve sex taking place in a hospital bed.
- [22:28]
Aisha Harris
Yes.
- [22:29]
Brittany Luce
While Molly is like in her gown and has like the nasal. Is receiving nasal oxygen. One of the things that where, like, society is lagging in the way that it thinks about people who are like ill and disabled is their sexuality and their sexual agency. Like, she was able to be in the context of illness very visibly and still be desired. And I thought that that was really, really important.
- [22:58]
Aisha Harris
And to that point, I think one thing we haven't even mentioned either is the fact that this show, it's a very sex positive show that also is basically, it's advocating that, like, there are other ways besides penetrative sex to find pleasure.
- [23:14]
Brittany Luce
Sex sex is a wave. No, sex sex is a mindset largely.
- [23:23]
Aisha Harris
In part because she's getting all these surgeries. She can't do the things that a lot of people can do. And so she is finding her way to be fulfilled without the quote unquote, normal hetero way of doing things. And I really appreciated that. Like, that is part of her journey is not just like the vanilla way, as G calls it.
- [23:49]
Kat Chow
Yeah, I think that was one of the first times I saw that portrayed. And so I really also just appreciated each partner she had. She learned something new. I mean, she was miraculously really great at being a domme. Naturally, I could have watched more episodes of her, you know, struggling and kind of trying to figure it out. But.
- [24:09]
Aisha Harris
Well, it sounds like we all absolutely recommend the show if you know it's a lot. But you've got some great performances and you've got, you know, a lot of really beautiful, lovely moments. So definitely let us know what you think about dying for sex. Find us@facebook.com PCHH and that brings us to the end of our show. Kat Chow and Brittany Luce. This was such an enlightening conversation. I really appreciate it. Thanks for being here.
- [24:34]
Brittany Luce
Thank you.
- [24:35]
Kat Chow
Thank you.
- [24:36]
Aisha Harris
This episode produced by Hafsa Fathoma and Liz Metzger and edited by Mike Katsif. Our supervising producer is Jessica Reedy and hello. Come in. Provides our theme music. Thanks for listening to Pop Culture Happy hour from npr. I'm Aisha Harris and we'll see you all tomorrow.
- [24:56]
Advertiser
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