Glen Weldon (3:23)

Co host of Slate's ICYMI podcast and former pop culture happy hour producer Candice Lim. Come crawling back. I knew you would. Welcome back, Candice.

Candice Lim (3:32)

Hi Glenn.

Glen Weldon (3:33)

Hi Candice. Good to see you. Also joining us is NPR producer Cory Antonio Rose. Welcome back to the show. Cory.

Cory Antonio Rose (3:38)

Antonio, thank you for having me.

Glen Weldon (3:40)

Always great to have you. It's only been two years since the Marvelous Mrs. Maisel ended its five season run. Now Amy Sherman Palladino, ASP Tour fans, is back with Etoile, which she co created with her husband Daniel. It's her second series set in and around the world of ballet. But where bun heads revolved around a ballet school, Etwell stakes are higher as it's about two professional dance companies. There's one in New York run by Jack, played by Luke Kirby. And there's one in Paris run by Genevieve, played by Charlotte Gainsbourg. Both are dealing with plummeting ticket sales. And amid much hand wringing about the need to save ballet itself as an art form, the two companies decide to swap their most valuable members for one.

Ad Voice (4:22)

Season, launch a massive transatlantic market campaign to bring the audience back to us, get people interested in dance again, put fresh faces out there, maybe do a documentary or a reality show about the swap.

Glen Weldon (4:36)

New York acquires the brilliant but belligerent. No kidding, she is a profoundly unpleasant person. A star dancer named Cheyenne, she's played by Ludalage. And Paris acquires the, let's just call him, quirky choreographer named Tobias, played by Gideon Glick. Etoile is streaming now on Prime Video. We should mention that Amazon supports NPR and pays to distribute some of our content. Cori Antonio, kick us off. What'd you think?

Cory Antonio Rose (5:02)

Oh, wow, what a watch. I don't think that it is, you know, in the land of theater procedurals. I don't think it lives up to maybe the legacy of a Smash or a Glee.

Glen Weldon (5:13)

Sure.

Cory Antonio Rose (5:14)

But it is a great watch if you are a real fan of ASP's work of that style of dialogue. And I think that it does make some gestures at some of the biggest problems that are facing the theater industry today. Gestures.

Glen Weldon (5:31)

Ah, I see. We'll come back to that.

Candice Lim (5:34)

How about you, Candace So first off, I've never had better posture in my life. The show is very inspiring, but it's tough. I like this show because I will watch anything ASP makes. I was Gilmore Girls indoctrinated at 12. I did watch Bunheads. That will come up later. But my thing is I have this feeling some people are gonna find this boring because all of ASP's shows are very athletic. And the question is, where is the sport? I think in her most like, critically acclaimed shows, gilmore girls Marvelous vs. Maisel, the sport's in the dialogue and Maisel, it was literally stand up comedy. The thing about Bunheads is that like, it was about the dance. There were so many dialogue, less scenes, and I think some people kind of faded out. I started to have that when I was watching this show and I was kind of like, ah. Like I keep in cause I want to know what happens. And I love ASP and I love her perspective. There's just a lot of ways that this show is really slow. One of that might be the fact that they bounce between French and English. But at the end of the day, the reason I watch a show is cause I love Luke Kirby. Luke Kirby was my favorite person on Maisel and he is a star. I locked in for him.

Glen Weldon (6:42)

Okay, we'll talk about those ballet sequences. There's a lot of them. I mean, Asp, you know, we talked about this. She's got a style, she's got a vibe, she's got a series of very specific tics and they are ticking away. Those tics are ticking away like a time bomb here. And they are in evidence. And while I don't think this is her at her height, particularly in the beginning and at the end, but in the beginning, you can feel trying to get into this very complicated and syncopated rhythm of dialogue. You can also feel the writing struggling too, especially in the early going. Here is a moment where you can tell that the show just isn't on its game yet. Here is Charlotte Gainsbourg as Genevieve.

Ad Voice (7:20)

Face the facts, Jack. A lot of our dancers have abandoned.

Glen Weldon (7:23)

Toe shoes for Tiktoks. Okay? I kept watching after that because that's how selfless I am. That is very rightly writing that if everything is working, wouldn't stand out, it wouldn't land with a thumb the way it does. But I want to be clear here what I'm about to say. It could come off as ageist, but ASP is just a couple years older than me, so it's not ageist when I say that is not how you write about young people. That's not even how you write middle aged people talking about young people. That is just writing that's calling more attention to itself than what it's attempting to convey. Which, again, that's our thing, right? But when every quirky character we meet on the show is like, Tobias the choreographer is quirky. Not in a way that people are quirky in real life, but quirky the way people are on an Amy Sherman Palladino show, it's meta from the jump. There's a running gag where people make puns that the theater is named after a family called Fish. That's just sweaty. But here's the thing that I want to talk to you guys about. Even when an Amy Sherman Palladino show is not working, it's still pizza, right? It's still recognizably pizza pizza. Famously, even bad pizza is still delicious. And even at her worst. And I think we'll talk about this too. But in the final episode of the season, a cascade of things happen that would never, ever happen in real life, because the people in the real world don't do the things that Amy Sherman Paladino requires of her characters to do. You see all the ticks, all the mannerisms, all the self indulgences. But I kept watching with a big smile on my face.

Candice Lim (8:48)

I think I get what you're saying, because something that people don't really talk about enough is that ASB technically is an auteur of television and of comedy, right? She is in the lane of Mindy Kaling and Shonda Rhimes. She just doesn't get thrown into that conversation a lot. But I think what you're talking about is like, if you're geared into asp, it's because all of her shows do have a through line and there is a thread. And I think one of them is eccentricity. The one thing about this show I notice is that all of these people who are eccentric. So we're talking Tobias Bell, my favorite, the choreographer played by Gideon Glick, Luke Kirby. All these characters, they are eccentric. But I actually wondered if the issue is that they're too famous. Like in this show, both companies, they have this public presence. They have to represent ballet, they have to represent the next generation of, you know, their cities and what art means. And it's on me to fix it. And I kind of wondered if part of that was the issue, or at least for me, the barrier between understanding them as people. Cause to me, I was kind of like, I feel so Outside of this world that feels conservative, almost kind of like in an academic space that I just want to know who you are, but you won't let me in. And I don't know whose fault that is. I think the actors are trying. I think the characters are just maybe kind of like in two different spaces, literally.

Cory Antonio Rose (10:02)

I think that there's a little bit of truth to what she's trying to do. And then I think it might go a little bit of a step too far.

Glen Weldon (10:09)

Okay.

Cory Antonio Rose (10:10)

I think about the through line between Mae Zel, Bunheads and Etoile. And what I think about is this sort of. She's in conversation with industry a lot, or she thinks heavily about industry, entertainment, industry, theater, industry, ballet, what have you. You know, you do meet a lot of larger than life personalities. And I saw her playing with the archetype of the theater administrator who understands that the theater is supposed to be a progressive space, but actually doesn't have those tenants. I think she just got really at home in that space. And for people who aren't in the theater space, I feel like they get left behind. Or there's a little bit of like insider speech where we know what that personality feels like and so it's less of a jump. But then if you're not in theater, you're like, okay, I wouldn't last two seconds in this rehearsal room or I would have called my union rep on the first day, what have you.

Glen Weldon (11:04)

That's true.

Cory Antonio Rose (11:05)

And then I also think it's compounded by the fact that Bunheads, when they were talking crazy to each other, it was also within the confines of this school that was kind of in the middle of nowhere.

Glen Weldon (11:14)

Exactly.

Cory Antonio Rose (11:15)

This is like quasi New York. We kind of know these people. We kind of don't. There's just a lot going on and the personalities just add to it.

Glen Weldon (11:24)

Yeah, that's a great point because ASP comes from a showbiz background. Her dad was a working comedian. He wrote gags for Joe. Her mom was a dancer on Broadway. But she's always had this fascination with this world of old money and erudition and class. The class in America. Right. And so Gilmore Girls you had Richard and Emily. Maisel was basically diving headfirst back into the world of showbiz that she basically grew up in. But here we're back in that world of class and wealth and what is a very rarefied high minded. I mean, you might consider it elite, you might consider it elitist art form of ballet, which she is passionate about. Clearly she is trained as A dancer, it's important to her. But there are all these dance sequences that start to feel to me an uncultured Joe Lunch pail. They start to feel like homework. I get the feeling that the show wants to bring ballet to the unwashed masses. Like me sitting on my couch, wiping Funyun dust on my pants. They're there to lift us up and transport us and to make us into something revelatory and life changing. And I think she really believes that. I really think that that's what those sequences are trying to do. And there's that scene in Always something where Danny DeVito's character is watching Rob McElhilhenny's character dance, and it's like a metaphor for his coming out process. And then at the end, Danny DeVito character says, I get it now, and that's supposed to be me. That's the moment she wants me to have. But philistine me just sits there and I don't get it. And I'm just distracted by really basic things, like how much money Amazon is throwing at this show. They are filming on location in Lincoln center in Central park in Paris. And that's not what I should be thinking about. I should be thinking about these sequences. How did all of those sequences land on you guys?

Cory Antonio Rose (13:10)

Oh, my heart breaks because maybe I'm the SAP. I really thought that the show was really Good.

Candice Lim (13:16)

You're Danny DeVito.

Cory Antonio Rose (13:17)

Yeah. Oh, wow. I mean, I thought that the show was really good at capturing some moments of the magic of theater. I thought that that scene in between Shayann and Susu.

Glen Weldon (13:29)

The young girl.

Cory Antonio Rose (13:30)

Yes, the young girl who sort of sneaks into the ballet studio at night and does these classes on her mom's phone. They have this sort of moment right before the Nutcracker where they're saying this prayer to another ballet artist. And it's just a sweet moment. Watch over me tonight and guide my dancing spirit.

Glen Weldon (13:49)

For you are the prima of all ballerinas.

Cory Antonio Rose (13:52)

For you are the prima of all ballerinas.

Glen Weldon (13:55)

Inspiring women with your grace and beauty.

Cory Antonio Rose (13:57)

Inspiring women with your grace and beauty.

Glen Weldon (13:59)

And lighting a fire in the loins of men.

Cory Antonio Rose (14:02)

And men liked you too. And it's one of those things where if you've done a show, if you've been that young artist with that austere teacher who you're so unsure, like, how did this lady get this way? Those moments, scenes like that, they really hit for me now. There were some times where I was like, oh, that's a stunt double. And I think that's Part of the reason why it takes us out.

Candice Lim (14:26)

Yeah.

Glen Weldon (14:26)

Yeah. I just want to mention that Susu, the little girl you're mentioning, is played. She's got a great deadpan. That actor. That's lame Zhang. And she's pretty great.

Candice Lim (14:35)

Yeah. I mean, this is interesting because unfortunately, I am kind of on the couch with Glenn where, like, is this an issue about showing versus telling? Because I like ASB because she does a lot of tell. Luke told Lorelai exactly what he wanted on that porch, and they made it happen. Whereas this show and Bunheads, it's a lot of show, which makes sense. It's about ballet. But the part that you're loving, Corey Antonio, is the part that I also love when, like, mentorship happens. And I know a lot of people kind of see mentorship either as something super corny or something that, like, is kind of, like, forced. But I do think that Cheyenne, if we can talk about, like, just characters for a second. Yeah, I like her. I think she is absolutely gonna be a pain in my ass one day, probably. But the thing is, at first I was like, is she the main character? Is she Lorelei? And I was like, no, no, no, no. She's Jess.

Glen Weldon (15:29)

That's why I hate her.

Candice Lim (15:30)

She is Jess from Gilmore Girls season two. Because in the first episode, when she jumps off that plane and she goes right to Lincoln center, she has this huge military green knapsack and combat boots. And I went, that's exactly what Jess brought to Stars Hollow. So I love her. Because I love Jess. Yes.

Glen Weldon (15:46)

So there's a character on the show we haven't talked about yet. That's Michi. She's one of the dancers traded to Paris from New York. She's played by Thais Vignolo. I understand you have some thoughts, Corianto.

Cory Antonio Rose (15:56)

You know, as a fan of Bun Heads, I was so glad to see another black person getting the chance to step into those ballet shoes. That was something I really did miss on Bunheads. And I thought that the actress who played Mishi Tais Fanolo, did a really wonderful job of sort of crossing that threshold of maturity where you kind of really have to finally confront a lot of the things that happened as a child between you and your parents. And cut that cord. And I thought she did a wonderful job. Is a plot against her. And one of the undertones definitely feels to me, it's explained in the show as they think she's untalented. But when you have this character who is the only black character whose interiority we are allowed to really Glimpse into. You cannot really ignore the fact that this entire company of people, of not even students, now full grown adults, have conspired to kick this lady out of her job, this young woman away from her job, and not address the fact that she's also the only. I guess she's not technically the only black woman in the company. And that's why it's not addressed. Cause we do see some background characters. You might see someone standing at a locker or tying their ballet flats. I don't know. We just don't get enough of what an American audience is gonna see as an obvious undertone of something like that.

Glen Weldon (17:20)

It's true.

Cory Antonio Rose (17:21)

I felt like there were so many that the show tried to gesture to here and there. But instead of really making an interesting show by diving deep into how a theater company, how a ballet company would actually try to get butts in the chairs, they kind of hung it, all of those things on this one premise of we're just gonna switch the dancers and then, you know, what happens at the end sort of happens at the end. And it's like, oh, but how did we. They didn't learn any lesson, they didn't do any work.

Candice Lim (17:53)

Yeah.

Cory Antonio Rose (17:54)

And I think that a much more interesting path for me or something that could probably be more interesting for somebody who doesn't necessarily care as much about the ballet of it all is how is a failing company gonna succeed?

Glen Weldon (18:06)

Right. I'm glad you mentioned that because like you mentioned something at the top about how it was making gestures towards something without addressing it. That's a great point. I see what you're saying. I think that's a function of that. This isn't the world of ballet. It's the world of Amy Sherman Paladino's head. She has a writer's. It's a small one, but it's a real one. And her husband Daniel is a co creator and a co showrunner of the show. It's not just her voice, but it is that sensibility. It's all filtered through this very singular, very recognizable sensibility that is fascinated by certain things and not interested in other things. And a lot of the other things are kind of left vaporous on this show, just kind of hanging in the air.

Cory Antonio Rose (18:48)

Like why this girl is the only black girl in her company with lines.

Glen Weldon (18:54)

For example.

Cory Antonio Rose (18:54)

Either company with lines.

Glen Weldon (18:56)

That's true. That's true.

Cory Antonio Rose (18:57)

I'd say this show is something like Willy Wonka meets Smash. I will say one thing I do appreciate about ASP is that she does require a certain level of attention that I don't think a lot of shows ask for these days.

Glen Weldon (19:11)

I think to various degrees, we're all kind of still grappling with this series. I think we all agree it's worth checking out though, right? Yeah.

Candice Lim (19:19)

Yes.

Cory Antonio Rose (19:19)

If you would buy tickets to Alien Tour, then give the second episode a try.

Glen Weldon (19:24)

Yes, definitely get to the second episode at least. We want to know what you think about Etoile. Find us@facebook.com PCHH that brings us to the end of our show. Candice Lim, Cory, Antonia Rose, thank you for helping me figure out this show as I wasn't figuring it out when we started talking. Thank you very much.

Cory Antonio Rose (19:42)

Thank you, thank you.

Glen Weldon (19:43)

And just a reminder that signing up for Pop Culture Happy Hour plus is a great way to support our show and public radio. And you get to listen to all of our episodes sponsor free. So please go find out more at plus.npr.org happyhour or visit the link in our show Notes. This episode was produced by Hafsa Fathoma and edited by Jessica Reedy and Mike Katzef, and Aloka Min provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. I'm Glenn Weldon and we'll see you all tomorrow.

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