Linda Holmes (2:43)

Discover more@viking.com Joining us today is Soraya Nadia McDonald. She's a cultural critic, journalist and the senior criticism editor for the Rumpus. Welcome back, Saraya.

Soraya Nadia McDonald (2:56)

Hello.

Aisha Harris (2:56)

Hello.

Soraya Nadia McDonald (2:56)

Nice to be here again.

Linda Holmes (2:58)

Absolutely. Glad to have you. In highest to Lowest, Denzel Washington plays David King, the powerful owner of a storied record label that isn't quite as hot as it once was, but it's made him very rich. One day, someone kidnaps his teenage son Trey and holds him for ransom. Only it turns out there's been a mix up. They didn't take Trey. They took his buddy Kyle, the son of David's closest friend and driver, Paul. He's played by Jeffrey. But even when the mistake is discovered, the kidnapper still demands the money. Many millions of dollars.

Actor (possibly Jeffrey Wright or Denzel Washington) (3:35)

But if it's about me, then you can't expect me to pay 17 and a half million dollars for somebody else's son. If it's about me, his blood is.

NPR Sponsor Announcer (3:42)

Going to be on your hands.

Actor (possibly Jeffrey Wright or Denzel Washington) (3:43)

Then how you want it. No, man.

Linda Holmes (3:45)

David is trying to regain control of the business he spent his life building, and he desperately needs every penny to make that happen. But how can he refuse his friend and his son and everyone else who will inevitably think it's his f if this kid who isn't his doesn't make it? Highest to Lowest is directed by Spike Lee, and it's based on the Akira Kurosawa film High and Low, which is itself based on the Ed McBain novel King's Ransom. It's in theaters now. It arrives on Apple TV in September. Aisha, I'm gonna start with you. What did you think of this one?

Aisha Harris (4:19)

Yeah, I mean, I am just so happy that in the year 2025, we're still getting new Spike Lee joints. And, you know, he had a rough patch throughout a lot of the 2000 and tens. And I think his last several movies, starting with BlackKklansman and then of course, the very, very great Da 5 Bloods from 2020. He seems to be on a roll here. And sure, is it a risk to, you know, try and take on and reimagine one of the most acclaimed films that has ever been made, a movie that has had, like, you know, 60 plus years of existing. Yeah, it's a risk. When Spike did his remake of Oldboy, it did not go well. I think people should expect that this goes much better than that. And I can understand easily why you would want to remake High and Low because it does translate, I think, so well across cultures, across generations. It's still very relevant, and I love seeing this twist on it. And while I have some caveats that we will probably get into, I think overall, I'm just happy to see him and happy to see him working again with Denzel, it's magic. It's very much magic.

Linda Holmes (5:30)

Yeah. All right, Sorayo, how about you? What'd you think?

Soraya Nadia McDonald (5:32)

Likewise. It's really wonderful, I think, to see Spike this far into his career, still making work, that feels like he's excited about filmmaking. I think part of that is because he's been, you know, a Kurosawa fanboy for such a long time. And to see him have both, you know, the means, the resources, the talent to kind of dig into those things is really fantastic. And I will say, it's also just wonderful. Now living in Brooklyn, and I went to a screening earlier this week and realized that I was looking at David King's building and sort of, like, looking for the penthouse as we're going across the bridge from the car. I think this is actually one of my favorite establishing shots of Spike's career, is the opening to this movie. And you get these incredible, just expansive shots of Brooklyn, of the Dumbo clock tower. And it really just sets the tone for, you know, the sort of moguldom that David inhabits. Just surveying this man's life, you know, and the way he sees himself as this king of New York with this incredible view of. Of Manhattan, you know, from his gorgeous Brooklyn penthouse. With the Kehinde Wileys and the Basquiats hanging on the walls.

Linda Holmes (6:57)

Yep, yep, yep.

Aisha Harris (6:58)

Yes.

Soraya Nadia McDonald (6:58)

There's just a lot of stuff to sort of tickle the eyes and the ears in this film.

Linda Holmes (7:02)

Yeah, that was really my first reaction is, you know, the first thing you see in this film is those wonderful shots of New York with this Norm Lewis rendition of oh, what a Beautiful Morning from Oklahoma, which I think is such a fabulous choice because it really harkens back to that. So really stands for a man who is essentially alone on this vast expanse of land and is seeing, you know, the world is stretched out before me. This is my dream of, you know, when Oklahoma was still a territory and, you know, he's a cowboy.

Soraya Nadia McDonald (7:36)

Oh, what a beautiful morning.

Aisha Harris (7:41)

Oh, what.

Linda Holmes (7:41)

A beautiful day to translate that into to this setting with David looking at New York from his penthouse. And those shots are just freaking gorgeous. They're just gorgeous. Makes so much sense and yet is so inventive. I was excited about this movie because my favorite Spike Lee movie, not necessarily the best, but my favorite Spike Lee movie is Inside man, which is the 2006 bank heist hostage situation movie, which also has Denzel Washington, as well as Clive Owen and Jodie Foster and Christopher Plummer, and I adore that. Movie. I've rewatched it a bunch of times. And so I was really interested in seeing him doing like, a crime movie. I'm always up for, like, a good Spike Lee crime movie. And I just love how early in his career, a lot of the sort of mainstream press stuff about him was very kind of issue focused and very like, he makes important movies. And it's not that that wasn't true. And isn't TR like I felt about watching the Fabelmans with Spielberg, where even if I didn't care that much about that story, you just look at it and you're like, well, a guy knows how to shoot a movie, you know?

Soraya Nadia McDonald (8:54)

Absolutely.

Linda Holmes (8:54)

And over and over again, I just thought so much about that. The making of this film, the use of music in this film is just so smart. It has a kind of what I would consider like an old Hollywood orchestral score. For much of it, you know, the cliche would have been to use a lot of hip hop. Not there's anything wrong with that. But he makes this other choice. I have seen so many much lesser directors of much more poorly thought out pieces be like, it's about crime. It's about quote, unquote, Please imagine the largest air quotes in the world, an urban setting. Therefore everything must be hip hop. I love a big orchestra. I love a big orchestral score. There's this diegetic use of Eddie Palmieri and his group because they set a piece of it at. At the Puerto Rican Day Parade, which is so smart and it works so well for a movie that's about music. I adored the use of music. So many beautiful shots. I just really sat back and appreciated the artfulness of this as much as the story.

Aisha Harris (10:00)

Yeah, I think I have to disagree slightly or push back a little bit on the use of music here because there are so many things about Spike that make him so singular. And he is an auteur. Like, when you're watching a Spike Lee movie, you always know it's a Spike Lee movie. And that's both a good thing and sometimes it can be a frustrating thing. And he's often worked with, you know, Terrence Blanchard here. He's working with Howard Drossen. And one of the things that I've always kind of struggled with with Spike Lee movies is the fact that he often uses orchestral music where it doesn't seem like it should be there. Like, it's just. You're having, like a normal conversation. It just kind of is like rumbling underneath and it can get kind of distracting. I guess I was Questioning sort of how Spike feels about hip hop today. Based on the way this movie pans out.

Linda Holmes (10:50)

Yes, that's very fair.

Aisha Harris (10:52)

Music has always been integral to his filmmaking. Like this is known. And he's embraced hip hop in the past. Of course, you have him working with Public Enemy multiple times on movies. He's not someone who does not like hip hop. But I also wonder how he feels about hip hop now and the way it plays out here and the way the moralizing that often comes with Spike is like, very. Your mileage may vary. I wasn't sure who this David King character was supposed like. Was he supposed to be a Quincy Jones type? You know, it's New York, so Jay Z immediately comes to mind. In fact, during one scene, he looks. Basically, he's dressed like Jay Z circa the Black Album era, you know, the blueprint.

Soraya Nadia McDonald (11:34)

I mean, on the one hand, it feels like the score of this film was. I mean, it is very much like in your face. And in some ways, it kind of reminds me of those threads that he was pulled on for a long time with Terrence Blantard, where you could kind of hear the Aaron Copland influences in a lot of Terrence's work. Right. You've got these big, brassy measures. You can sort of hear these influences coming through again. But it is interesting, like you say, Aisha, I do wonder. Yeah. How does he feel about hip hop right now? Because you really do. You get sort of closer and closer to Spike, kind of approaching old man yelling at Cloud a little bit through Denzel in this film at times.

Linda Holmes (12:21)

Yeah.

Aisha Harris (12:22)

A little bit of pull up your pants going on here. A little bit of pull up your pants.

Soraya Nadia McDonald (12:26)

But it's so pleasurable. Like, I kind of want to give it to him, if that makes sense.

Aisha Harris (12:32)

Yes.

Linda Holmes (12:32)

When you point this out, it does make me realize that you don't hear a lot of, like, what music does David really love?

Aisha Harris (12:41)

Right.

Linda Holmes (12:41)

You sort of. At one point, very close to the end, you do. You hear, like, an example of the kind of music he really loves. But other than that, he talks a lot about how much he cares about his record company, how much he cares about the art that he has tried to nurture. And, in fact, about Soraya made mention of the Basquiats and so forth in the apartment. And I think the first thing you see when they show his apartment is this painting of Toni Morrison. And they go way out of their way to sort of try to give a location of his artistic sensibility via description. But then you don't hear Necessarily a lot of examples of it. Other than, like I said at the very end, you kind of see him get lit up by hearing an artist. But other than that, like, what is the music that he loves? I think that's a really fair.

Aisha Harris (13:31)

It's so curious that, like, he is this music mogul who, you know, is supposed to have, like, tapped into the culture in many ways and foster that culture. It's like, do we live in an alternative universe where he also, like, worked with Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder, like. Cause all of the art is exactly like, Spike is speaking to us through the mise en scene, through the entire, like, setup. And it kind of reminded me, actually of his exhibit that was at the Brooklyn Museum for a while, but I also saw it at the Academy Museum. Like, they had, like, a section dedicated to Spike that he, like. He was just like, here are all the things that I collected. Artifacts from Hollywood. It kind of reminded me of that where he's, like, speaking to us through his love of culture and cultivating culture. It was interesting to me because I was just like, oh, we see all of these artists who we're all familiar with, but we don't see any artists who he might have worked with who, like, would be on the wall. But at the same time, he populates the film with actual rappers from this generation and younger. You've got Ice Spice showing up. You've got Princess Nokia. You have A$AP Rocky. So it is an interesting, delicate walk. But I say all this, and yet I agree with you, Saria, where I'm just like, it's chewy. It doesn't quite all work. But also, I'm still, like, okay with it. Like, I'm giving him a pass.

Soraya Nadia McDonald (14:53)

Like, there are some ways that David King does feel very Jay Z coded and almost like, you know, these big names that he clearly admires, whether it's Aretha or Stevie or James Brown or whoever, they almost feel sort of like a list of greatest hits of artists that Jay Z would sample to rap over.

Aisha Harris (15:15)

Yes.

Linda Holmes (15:16)

I think it's so interesting. Cause when I was watching this, you know, like I said, I went to this really hoping for the kind of, like, twisty thriller story that I really love and that I think Inside man is. And it isn't really that it's not as thematically complex, I think, as I thought that it might be. I don't think it's as morally complex as I thought it might be. Because obviously he's presented with this. They sort of suggest, are you gonna nearly bankrupt Yourself for this other kid who is not your kid. Right. But is the kid of Paul, played by Jeffrey Wright, who, as always, I love in this.

Aisha Harris (15:48)

Oh, my goodness.

Linda Holmes (15:49)

I think he's so good and makes. Gives this story a whole other level of both kind of humanity and humor, which is so welcome.

Actor (possibly Jeffrey Wright or Denzel Washington) (15:59)

Right now I'm asking you for everything.

NPR Sponsor Announcer (16:02)

I'm asking you for my life.

Actor (possibly Jeffrey Wright or Denzel Washington) (16:04)

Nah, you ain't asking me for life right now. You're asking me for $17.5 million. That's all people do is ask me for stuff. Can you help me? Can you give me. They just want me to pay.

Linda Holmes (16:13)

What I wound up appreciating was just like looking at it and being like, oh, okay. So this is the conversation he decides to actually show you. And this is the conversation where it's silent and you're just seeing it through a window, you know, which I think he makes really interesting decisions about. And you're both kind of circling around this. I think in a way that's really helpful to me is that I always appreciate the fact that he is a guy with a kind of a pan. Cultural interest in lots of different things.

Soraya Nadia McDonald (16:40)

Oh, yes.

Linda Holmes (16:41)

That he is so interested in what you would consider. And again, even more air quotes like high culture and pop culture and sports and lots of different kinds of music and musical theater. I love, kind of. He draws from such an incredibly wide catalog of influences and references. It's always just fun to watch that happen. Like I said, I think that Puerto Rican Day Parade stuff is so smart and works so well and also just gives you a chance to listen to great music. Eddie Palmieri, by the way, died earlier this month. And this is a great opportunity. Just go and see this group and how amazing they are again. It's such an appreciation of New York as so many of his movies are. I enjoyed it a lot, even though not necessarily for the reasons I was hoping to expecting to maybe.

Aisha Harris (17:35)

That sequence, the Puerto Rican Day Parade sequence was great because it made me miss that aspect of living in New York. I'm also just so glad you brought up Jeffrey Wright again, because he really was. As much as I loved watching Denzel work and he himself is also kind of back in a groove, I think, after maybe, you know, between this Macbeth and Gladiator 2. Even though Gladiator 2 was not a good movie, he was great in that. But Jeffrey Wright is so, so good here. And I kind of wish he factored more into the story. And I think that's another thing I struggled with, is where Spike and you Know, the script itself kind of ultimately comes down on this idea of, like, black wealth. And the responsibility we have definitely could.

Linda Holmes (18:21)

Have more energy in that conflict, you know, between them.

Soraya Nadia McDonald (18:25)

He's kind of ambivalent about his own money, possibly.

Linda Holmes (18:29)

That's the thing.

Aisha Harris (18:29)

That's exactly. That was what I was thinking the whole time. I was like, this is some very Oprah esque, like, Tyler Perry esque. And I mean that not in terms of the way Tyler Perry directs, but in terms of this, like, ethos or this idea of, like, black wealth being an insulator against actual criticism.

Soraya Nadia McDonald (18:49)

Right.

Aisha Harris (18:50)

And I feel as though I wanted more of that, like, friction between Jeffrey Wright's character and Denzel's character, because that is the thing, right? Like, at the end of the day, Jeffrey Wright's character is still the chauffeur. And not just the chauffeur. We also learn that he is an ex con. He is such a rich character. And that dynamic is so fascinating. And it's felt to me like a sort of missed opportunity. Like, I wanted even, like, Inside man. Amazing. But it has that, like, Nazi subplot that I think doesn't pull punches in the same way that this movie seems to pull punches.

Soraya Nadia McDonald (19:27)

And there are parts where he starts to sort of creep up to it, right? Like. But it's very diffuse. We can contrast the way the NYPD treats, you know, this man who is the king of New York, a titan of industry. Everybody knows him. You know, when he calls, they come running. Versus, like, the way they're treating Jeffrey's character. Very rude, very dismissive, not really interested in anything this man has to say or the care that he is showing for his own son. And that class difference, Right, Even intraracially, like, among black folks of the treatment from the police.

Linda Holmes (20:09)

Yeah, those things, I think, are sort of like, they're outwardly acknowledged. They're sort of hat tipped too. But there's not a lot of kind of plot energy that goes into them. And there were times when I sort of thought, like I said, that more energy was gonna go into the conflict over what to do. As I mentioned in the intro, Jeffrey Wright is playing the best friend driver. And there's a very fair question of, like, is that a thing? Like, what is the relationship between these two men and how does it work? Because there's a moment when David is talking to another one of his business associates and he starts to say some really appalling things about, like, maybe I just let this go and people will forgive me and people will get over it and it's like, if you're really willing to dig into that about this guy, maybe that's like a more kind of morally complicated movie. And that does not really turn out to be where they wanna go with this story.

Aisha Harris (21:07)

Yeah. I at least liked the fact that we get a moment between David and his son Trey where Trey is just like, this is like another thing that I think Spike really seemed, even if we don't really fully understand his feelings on music, we do seem to get a clear eyed view of his take on social media and how, and the press and how that can affect your image and that moment between him and his son where the son is just like, this is not just affecting you, this is affecting me. I am being blamed for my best friend's kidnapping. You need to work this out. Money is just money. It's both a very, you know, younger person, what a younger person may feel and think, but also he's right. He's absolutely right. And I liked that dynamic. And all of that seems to happen in the first half and then the second half it kind of just like, it diffuses.

Linda Holmes (22:02)

Yeah.

Aisha Harris (22:02)

We did all there for you to sort of. Yeah, yeah. Again, I don't know. This is just, it's such a fun time. And I will say that that One song that A$AP Rocky has features in at the end is, it's quite, it's a bop. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it. I was like, oh, this is catchy. You know, maybe not as deep as I wanted it to be, but it's fun.

Linda Holmes (22:24)

Yeah, I really enjoyed it. I think we all enjoyed it. With certain caveats. Tell us what you think about highest to lowest. Find us on facebook@facebook facebook.com PCHH and on letterboxd@letterboxd.com NPRpopculture we'll have a link in our episode description that brings us to the end of our show. Soraya, Nadia McDonald, Aisha Harris, thank you so much for being here.

Aisha Harris (22:45)

Thank you.

Soraya Nadia McDonald (22:46)

Thank you.

Linda Holmes (22:47)

This episode is produced by Liz Metzger, Janae Morris and edited by Mike Katzeff. Our showrunner is Jessica Reedy. And hello. Come in provides our theme music. Thanks for listening to Pop Culture Happy hour from npr. I'm Linda Holmes. We'll see you all next time.

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