Stephen Thompson (3:17)

Joining me today is freelance music and culture journalist Rhianna Cruz. Hey Rhianna.

Rhianna Cruz (3:22)

Hi Stephen. Paws up.

Stephen Thompson (3:24)

Also with us is NPR music critic and correspondent Ann Powers. Hey Anne.

Ann Powers (3:28)

Hey Stephen. Hey Rhiannon. It's so great to be here with all you little monsters.

Rhianna Cruz (3:32)

I'm excited.

Stephen Thompson (3:33)

It is a pleasure to have you both. So in the five years since she released her last studio album, Chromatica, Lady Gaga has starred in Joker, Folie a Deux and put out two collections of standards tied to her work in the movie. She released an album of duets with Tony Bennett and recorded a song for Top Maverick that got an Oscar nomination. She's never been far from the spotlight, but it's been a while since fans have gotten a dose of amped up, anthemic pop music. Now those fans have a new Lady Gaga album called Mayhem. It's already spawned three hits, die With a Smile, Abracadabra, and Disease. Thematically and sonically, Mayhem is all over the map as it touches on familiar Gaga themes, bad romance, the lure of celebrity, as well as newer developments like her recent engagement. It's got bangers, it's got ballads, it's Lady Gaga through and through. Rihanna. Cruz, I know you to be a little monster from way back. What do you think of Mayhem?

Rhianna Cruz (4:39)

So, first of all, I think we've been starved for good pop albums and culture generally. So I am honored to say that I love it. I am a lifelong little monster. Been there since day one. I remember listening to the Fame on my third grade field trip school bus and looking out the window very longingly. I know, really showing my age here. No, you're more showing my age, so I suppose so. But the reason why Mayhem feels so gratifying to me and I love it so much, is because it feels like an entire culmination of Gaga's entire career so far. It has her different brands of pop all over the record, as well as a penchant for different genres. We see rock oriented songs a la her Album Joanne show up on this album, we see similarities to demos from her first record. The fame on this record. It's a little monsters dream, frankly, and I'm happy to say I love this album.

Ann Powers (5:38)

Oh, well, I couldn't agree more. It is a little monster's dream. It's kind of a little monster's gashly crumb tinies. I'll say, invoking Edward Gorey, the great patron saint of gothic pop culture who celebrated his centenary recently. And you know what I mean by that is the ghastly crumb Tinies was of course Lederigor's Alphabet. And this is kind of Lady Gaga's Alphabet, you know, I mean, we're really going from A to Z with all the Gaga styles. And I also absolutely love how she is taking on and dare I say, occasionally besting current pop stars. And I'm really curious if y'all hear that too. Like her rivals, her peers, her friends, she's like, I can do what you do and I can do it while hanging upside down in a satin DayGlo jumpsuit.

Stephen Thompson (6:26)

Yeah, I think, Anne, you hit on something that speaks to this album's strengths as well as to me. A couple of its weaknesses. I think it is a survey of many different sounds. It is a very hard working record. It is doing a lot and throwing a lot at the wal. I don't think every one of those pop star homages works perfectly well. I think there is a. There is a song on here that I think it's very conspicuous. I think it has stood out to a lot of people called How Bad do youo Want Me? Which feels like the answer to an AI prompt. Write a Taylor Swift song for Lady Gaga.

Unknown Speaker (7:14)

Boys play how bad do you want me?

Stephen Thompson (7:18)

For me, that doesn't work as well. At the same time, I am really glad to have this particular form of Gaga, the hard charging ultra pop superstar who is putting in ludicrous amounts of work to entertain. It's nice to have that Lady Gaga back because I was starting to feel like she was shifting into her adult contemporary era in ways that felt premature. You know, she put out an album of songs with Tony Bennett, Die with a Smile, the Bruno Mars ballad that it closes out. This record that has been streamed billions of times is very much a classic throwback adult contemporary singer, songwriter duet. I had started to worry. Is being famous so important to her that she's shifting into her adult contemporary era prematurely? This album answers that question for the most part with a lot of really hard charging bangers. I wanted to Ask you guys. You guys are big fans of this record. I was fine with it, but not in love with it. What were your favorite songs? Rihanna? Give us a couple of your favorite favorites on this record.

Rhianna Cruz (8:29)

Well, I've been streaming Shadow of a Man all weekend. Speaking of the high octane pop sensibilities that you mentioned, Steven, I think that song is really great at capturing what's so great about Gaga, specifically her ability to write really great choruses and post choruses. Basically, she knows how to craft a really good pop song. And I think Shadow of a Man is really excellent in that regard. I feel similarly about Abracadabra. I thought it was a really excellent single and something different and new for Gaga. And what I appreciate about this record is Gaga's ability to step outside of the box and try new things that we perhaps have not heard from her in a very long time. At the very least, like, I like the Taylor Swiftian How Bad do youo Want Me? Because it sounds different and it sounds like I'm listening to Taylor Swift without the guilt, frankly. So that's great for me. But those are some of my favorites on the album.

Ann Powers (9:36)

I'm gonna defend How Bad do youo Want Me to on the basis of what it reminds me of, which is Yaz's indelible early electro pop hit Only youy. If you play that song next to How Bad do you want Me, I think you'll hear a stunning comparison that also exposes what Taylor was up to, what she was copying from on songs like Gorgeous from Reputation, which a lot of fans on Reddit have said are similar. I think it's all flex, Steven. You know, I think it's all about Gaga being like, you all pop girlies think you can do what I can do, I'm gonna do it. And not in a mean way, like in a weirdly loving way.

Rhianna Cruz (10:15)

It's like, you know how much you love the imitation. Now let me show you the original and you're gonna crave the original.

Ann Powers (10:23)

Or even like, why separate the original from the imitation? Because, of course, with Gaga, it's all performance, it's all the fame, it's all a game, and she's the master.

Stephen Thompson (10:34)

Well, and when we're talking about Gaga as the original, I think Gaga herself would acknowledge that she is of a continuum. Yeah, for sure. She is certainly picking up where Madonna left off. She's picking up where David Bowie left off.

Ann Powers (10:46)

She's Nine Inch Nails all over this record.

Stephen Thompson (10:49)

Nine Inch Nails is a significant influence on this record. And I think as Much as we're reading into this here, I'm the original. I don't necessarily think that even Gaga thinks she's the original so much as building on what other pop stars that influenced her have done.

Rhianna Cruz (11:06)

This is an influence. Heavy record.

Stephen Thompson (11:08)

Yeah.

Ann Powers (11:08)

All kinds of wild influences, right? I mean, Michael Jackson, you know, early rap, the Zombie Boy, Rapture, Blondie Rapture comparison we could make. It's pretty wild.

Unknown Speaker (11:21)

See you over there in the back of this party. And your girlfriend isn't here. Your girlfriend isn't here.

Rhianna Cruz (11:29)

Killa is like a Prince reject. And I say that with the most loving comparison.

Ann Powers (11:36)

So true.

Unknown Speaker (11:37)

I'm gonna make you scream.

NPR Sponsor (11:39)

That's a matter of fact.

Unknown Speaker (11:40)

I'll be a fantasy. I'm a killer.

Stephen Thompson (11:45)

And Rihanna, I'm glad you mentioned Abracadabra, and Abracadabra is one of the singles. She famously introduced it to the world by buying commercial time at the Grammys. And what jumped out at me about that song as a song that could really take off is that it manages to check a lot of boxes, not only being a kind of catchy, overdriven pop song, but it's a little weird.

Rhianna Cruz (12:07)

Yes.

Stephen Thompson (12:07)

And it also taps some of those early Gaga hits with the kind of chanty like Poker Face or Bad Romance that have a little chanty quality to them. And so it felt new and weird, but also classic Gaga.

Ann Powers (12:32)

I wrote a thing for NPR Music about how I was waiting for Gaga to come back to bring the freak back to pop and Rihanna. I'm interested to hear what you have to say about this, because when we started talking today, you were saying we haven't had a good pop record for a while, which is interesting coming from you.

Stephen Thompson (12:50)

Yeah. I'm not sure I even agree with that. I think there have been a bunch.

Ann Powers (12:53)

Of great pop records.

Rhianna Cruz (12:54)

Yeah.

Ann Powers (12:54)

I mean, talk a little more about that.

Stephen Thompson (12:56)

Yeah.

Rhianna Cruz (12:56)

I mean, I feel like this goes back to the imitator thing I mentioned. I think we live in a time where a pop record is mostly founded on regurgitations, perhaps of earlier sounds. And not to say that this record is absolved of that, because as we're talking, mayhem is very 80s influenced, and that's clear. And 90s influenced and 90s basically just put the gamut of pop music through a blender and you kind of have mayhem. But I don't know. I think I found myself feeling very jaded with pop music recently, particularly from a list celebrities and pop stars. I was not enthused by the Billie Eilish record. Not enthused by the Dua Lipa records from last year. Beyonce is doing country, which is amazing, but her own gamut. Like, I think in terms of pop music, I haven't felt this way about a record since Renaissance years ago, where I feel truly invested with the poppy and qualities of what Gaga is bringing to the table, where it's getting me to dance, it's getting me to sing choruses. I've been walking around my house singing different choruses from the album all week. Different songs. And I think that's a testament to how starved I personally am for a good, well rounded pop record.

Ann Powers (14:18)

Wow.

Stephen Thompson (14:19)

I'm sorry, I'm getting alerts here. It says Chapel Ron has entered the chat. Oh, Charlie XCX is here.

Ann Powers (14:24)

That's what I. Actually, I'm glad you brought up Chapel, because one of my favorite songs on this record, Vanish into youo, I feel like that song directly speaks to Chapel. It's a great illustration of what Mayhem does, because on the one hand, Vanish into youo speaks to previous Gagas. I mean, it's got the kind of Latin, vaguely indeterminately Latin rhythm of Alejandro.

Rhianna Cruz (14:49)

You know, Lysla Bonitza coded.

Ann Powers (14:51)

Yes, exactly. Exactly. It all goes back to Madonna. Absolutely. But. But then, I don't know. Play the chorus of Good Luck, Babe next to the chorus of Vanish into youo and tell me that Gaga isn't saying, I can hit those notes and I can hit them more Broadway than you can hit them. Chapel. Rock.

Unknown Speaker (15:21)

In the summertime we were happy.

Stephen Thompson (15:25)

Just to be alive and again, it's worth noting this is not a competition.

Ann Powers (15:31)

It's a loving thing. It's a loving thing and it's loving.

Stephen Thompson (15:33)

I mean. I mean, Chapel Ron was just praising the Lady Gaga record herself over the weekend. You know, these are at most friendly rivalries.

Ann Powers (15:40)

Absolutely. And they're both Elton John devotees, as.

Stephen Thompson (15:43)

Well they should be. I wanted to get your thoughts on where Lady Gaga is in her career, because it is extremely hard to stay on top in pop. You know, we've kind of alluded to all these young pop stars who are kind of coming for her throne. You know, I just mentioned Chapel Ron and Charli XCX people. She's clearly influenced. You know, she just played SNL and she joked in the monologue about being 38 and how that's the perfect age for a female pop star. Ha ha. Of course, it's a very precarious time because the industry chews up and spits out so many women in pop music. Where do you see her right now? Especially putting this record on the heels of so many kind of normcore. I mean, normcore plus Joker is her last five years.

Rhianna Cruz (16:34)

I mean, I think Gaga is able to stay in the spotlight because of a core tenant of her artistry. And that's reinvention. Where even when she was on this adult contemporary pivot for a while doing these Tony Bennett albums, doing Harlequin, which is the standards record for Joker 2, we always kind of knew that that wasn't the last stop in her career. And I think coming back to pop music for fans, but also herself feels like a full circle moment. I do think this might be the last Lady Gaga record as we know it. I think she's putting it all out before she settles down, has a kid, gets married, she's engaged right now. But I do think Gaga is able to evade this adult contemporary status by constantly pushing the boundary and constantly reinventing herself and constantly showing us what she is good at.

Ann Powers (17:30)

I agree with that. And I think both on this record and also in what performances we've seen so far, she is wiping the floor completely.

Stephen Thompson (17:38)

Yeah, I think she's in a really interesting spot. And one thing that she has really benefited from in having explored a bunch of different lanes is she can always go back to them. Like, she can certainly go back to the adult contemporary. Well, it's just really interesting to me. I've wondered about her next scene, especially in light of kind of the career collapse of Katy Perry, you know, as somebody who has also made effortful production rich kind of technicolor pop music, but eventually just kind of creatively fizzled out, how she's been able to avoid that fate. I mean, I think part of it is, I think Lady Gaga's songs have always had more to say than Katy Perry's songs have. You know, I'm definitely very curious about where she goes from here.

Ann Powers (18:27)

I mean, Gaga does have a vision, as you're just saying. And I mean, for this record, there's this concept behind it. It's interpreting a series of her dreams. I mean, that's a frame. Do we need the frame? I don't know, but I know Gaga's walking into the studio with that frame and that's what's pushing her to the next level, you know, concept wise. Whereas with Katy Perry, it just feels what's there. There's no there there at this point.

Rhianna Cruz (18:52)

With Katy Perry, Gaga has a personality and no shade to Katy Perry. Like, again, love, Katy Perry did not like 143, but that's beside the point. I I think what separates this from a lot of late career pop star albums as well. Because Gaga's been around for over a decade, almost two decades at this point. I. I think what makes it different is that you can feel Gaga in every track. I think a lot of.

Stephen Thompson (19:18)

Except for how bad do you want me.

Ann Powers (19:19)

I know, I just.

Rhianna Cruz (19:20)

But even on that I feel Gaga. I hear Gaga on that.

Ann Powers (19:23)

But I absolutely.

Rhianna Cruz (19:24)

I think like what makes her so special is that you hear her. She doesn't disappear into an album. She is the album. And I think that's what separates her from someone like Katy Perry, who is kind of dwarfed by the music itself.

Ann Powers (19:38)

Right, right. And I mean, I was hoping this was going to be even more perverse than it is. I mean, there's a lot of happiness on this record. There's a lot of affianced, you know, we're engaged, I'm heading toward marital bliss.

Stephen Thompson (19:54)

Well, it closes with a pair of love songs. I mean, Blade of Grass, which is directly referencing her engagement.

Ann Powers (20:00)

Yeah.

Stephen Thompson (20:01)

And then Die with a Smile, which is certainly a very love forward battle.

Ann Powers (20:05)

Yeah. And Michael Polanski, her fiance actually co wrote a bunch of these songs. And beautiful Linda McCartney move. I've gotta love that. I hope he's on the tour singing backup vocals in a werewolf costume. That's what I'm hoping for.

Rhianna Cruz (20:20)

I think Die with a Smile, we've been talking about it. I think it sounds better in the context of the record where we're toying with these ideas of love and sadness and trauma and happiness all coexisting. I think it really culminates on Di with a Smile and I'm happy she put it on the record, frankly.

Ann Powers (20:38)

I love that comment because there is a kind of a gothic strain on this record that's so far from a goth sound. But that's what connects Vanish into youo, which I mentioned as a favorite. I mean, they're both these like heady love songs and yet they both have a supernatural, windswept, Kate Bush on the moors quality to them. Stephen, I know you're not a huge Die With A Smile fan, but is there a way we could persuade you to come around? Because I also love Bruno, so we can get into that as well.

Stephen Thompson (21:08)

Oh, man. Like much of society, I've been a little bit Stockholm Syndicate by that song by just having it relentlessly fed to me over and over again.

Ann Powers (21:19)

It's a huge hit.

Stephen Thompson (21:20)

You know, I hear it and then I'm like, fine. One reason that I took to it a little bit more in the context of the record, I got a sense of it as part of a more coherent vision instead of as a corporate mega merger, if that makes sense.

Ann Powers (21:32)

But, you know, Die With a Smile does have a strain of weirdness in it. I mean, it is a big, sweeping power ballad of which we've so, you know, we've gotten so many from Bruno throughout his career. But this is a power ballad about the apocalypse. You know, this is like if the world was ending. I want to incinerate I want to be incinerated next to you which is an interesting version of romance.

Unknown Speaker (22:11)

Think I.

Rhianna Cruz (22:12)

Want to be next to you we don't get enough weird pop music. And that's another reason why Gaga is so special, because she can make a song like the Beast, which is essentially a fanfiction song about Gaga loving a werewolf, and then turn around and do a song like Garden of Eden. Right. Or Perfect Celebrity or Zombie Boy, which are all very strange.

Ann Powers (22:44)

Yes, that's exactly what I was saying. I wanted it to be truly perverse. It's not exactly as perverse as I wanted, but it has enough of that. And, I mean, that's also tied to Gaga's political project, which is protect trans lives. And, you know, my queer community raised me, and this is who I'm making music for. And I really appreciate that. And I think that going back ran to what you're talking about, her personality, she also has convictions.

Rhianna Cruz (23:15)

Yeah, yeah. Which is refreshing, I think, to see in this political landscape and also in pop music, where I think the MO more often than not is kind of just let the hits play, you know, let the songs speak for themselves. And that's part of the reason why I love Gaga is that, like, you can feel who she is in her music. Goes back to that personality thing. Like, I love Lady Gaga because I can listen to a record and get a sense of where she is in her life, what she believes in at that moment, what she thinks of her celebrity. And I think all of that is present on Mayhem.

Stephen Thompson (23:47)

Yeah, she's always been outspoken and she's always done good work. We want to know what you think about Lady Gaga's Mayhem. Find us on facebook@facebook.com PCHH that brings us. Brings us to the end of our show. Ann Powers, Rhianna Cruz, thanks so much for being here.

Ann Powers (24:03)

So fun.

Rhianna Cruz (24:03)

Happy to be here.

Stephen Thompson (24:04)

We want to take a moment to thank our Pop Culture Happy Hour plus subscribers. We appreciate you so much for showing your support of npr. If you haven't signed up yet, want to show your support and listen to this show without any sponsor breaks. Head over to plus.npr.org happy hour or visit the link in our show notes. This episode was produced by Liz Metzger and edited by Jessica Reedy. Hello. Come in provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. I'm Stephen Thompson and we will see you all tomorrow.

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