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- [00:00]
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- [00:21]
Linda Holmes
Fame does strange things to people. In the new film Lurker, a young retail clerk makes his way into the inner circle of a popular rising musician.
- [00:31]
Glenn Weldon
And.
- [00:32]
Linda Holmes
And being in that orbit is intoxicating.
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Stephen Thompson
This friendship isn't really built to last. The power imbalance between the guy who feels like a nobody and the guy who travels with an entourage inevitably becomes a strain, and that becomes painful, then maybe even dangerous. I'm Stephen Thompson.
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Linda Holmes
And I'm Linda Holmes. This is Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. And today we are talking about Lurker. Joining us today are our co hosts, Aisha Harris. Hello, Aisha.
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Aisha Harris
Hello. Hello, Linda.
- [01:01]
Linda Holmes
And Glenn Weldon. Hello, Glenn.
- [01:03]
Glenn Weldon
Hey, Belle.
- [01:04]
Linda Holmes
We are so happy to be all here together to talk about this. I would not say cheerful and upbeat film, but we're gonna get into it. Lurker begins with a young guy named Matthew, played by Theodore Pellerin, who works in a clothing store. A popular young musician named Oliver, played by Archie Madequi, comes into the store surrounded by an aura of special specialness, and Matthew can't help trying to get Oliver's attention. It works, and before you know it, Matthew is added to Oliver's circle of friends and hangers on, ostensibly to help with a documentary Oliver is having made about himself. Because Matthew is desperately lonely, this relationship is everything to him. And he comes to realize maybe it is not everything to Oliver. Matthew becomes jealous and possessive about his place in Oliver's life, and things between them get uncomfortable. Who is manipulating who and who holds the power become complicated and painful questions. The film is written and directed by Alex Russell, an Emmy winning producer and writer who's worked on shows including Beef and the Bear. Lurker is in theaters now. Aisha, I'm going to start with you. You saw this, I think, before the rest of us did because it was at Sundance. Tell me how you feel about Lurker.
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Aisha Harris
I am all in on Lurker. This is Aisha Catnip. I love and obsess. I love a movie that is about parasocial relationships. Like, what is the fine line? There's a lyric that Ali sings in one of his songs. It's like, what's the difference between love and obsession? And this movie is like, what's the difference between wanting to be someone and maybe wanting to actually have sex with them? I don't know, there's a lot of, like, thin line between homoeroticism and also, just, like, admiration. And Theodore Pallorain is new to me, but he gets this character, this, like, sociopathic striver, and the contrast between him and Archie Madekwe as Oliver, who people may recognize as the cousin from Saltburn. And this has a lot of Saltburn vibes. And we were all on that episode where we talked about it. We all liked it, but I know a lot of people did not like it. But I think more people will be into Lurker in part because, as you mentioned, Linda, one of the writers on Beef, and there's a lot of beef in here too. And I think there's, like, beef Saltburn food. It's great. Anyway, I loved it, and I'm excited to hear how you all felt about it as well.
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Linda Holmes
Yeah, you know, you mentioned that fine lines between wanting to be friends with someone, wanting to possess them, wanting to have sex with them. We also talked about this with Ripley, and I think it has come up in the various retellings of the talented Mr. Ripley as well. Steven, what did you think about Lurker?
- [03:55]
Stephen Thompson
I'm very much in the same boat as Aisha. I basically just loved this film. I think the performances at the center of it are grand. I think it does such a beautiful job conveying the horror of precariousness, how much it can feel like a horror movie when it's just somebody walking into a room and clocking the expressions on everyone's faces. It is a very tense film. It is also a very expertly scored film. Kenny Beets does the music for this film. I cannot tell you, first of all, how effectively the score kind of sets up a lot of this tension, but also how right the this film gets a very specific subgenre of music that is really popping right now. This sound that I would describe as kind of like deconstructed bedroom R and B. And I was like, scribbling in my notes names like Rex, Orange County, Dijon, Omar, Apollo. It's this very specific sound. And I kind of waited, got to the closing credits, and I was so pleased with myself because one of the songs, Love and Obsession, is co written by Rex. Orange County.
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Linda Holmes
What's the difference between love and Obsession? I don't know But I know I want you when judging by your facial.
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Stephen Thompson
Expression oh, I think maybe you might want me too.
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Aisha Harris
Oh, I had no idea.
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Stephen Thompson
Dijon co writes one of these songs and I was like, I know music.
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Linda Holmes
Oh, good job, buddy.
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Stephen Thompson
Yeah. But this film really gets at not only where this guy would fit into the actual pop landscape, but kind of where this entire sound fits into the pop landscape, because it's mainstream, but it's not all the way mainstream. So Oliver is at this kind of precarious point in his career where, who knows, maybe he's the next gigantic superstar or maybe he kind of fades back into the C list. And so I think the precariousness of everyone's position is so well captured here.
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Linda Holmes
And I think he's exactly the right amount of famous too, because if he were less famous, he wouldn't feel so sparkly. But if he were more famous, it would be much harder to achieve this kind of ingratiating yourself. Is he surrounded by 4,000 lawyers who are gonna make sure nothing happens to him? Not necessarily. Yet. Glen, how about you? What'd you think?
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Glenn Weldon
I mean, you know, you are in really good, confident hands with this movie. In that very first scene you mentioned at the top, Matthew's working at the store. Oliver comes in, there's a line from his co worker Jamie, played by Sonny Suljic, who says, oh, he's back. That does so much work. Because at that moment, you watch Matthew click in, put his plan into action. He connects his phone to the store's PA system, plays a deep cut Nile Rogers song that he knows will impress Oliver because he's done his research. In any other movie, that's what, 15, 20 minutes of backstory collapsed into 30 seconds of screen time. And if we had spent 20 or 30 minutes in that backstory, this film would not be called Lurker, it would be called Stalker, because we'd spend a lot of time in the chase and the hunt and the spying. But the fact is, what this movie's interested in is what happens next. What happens once you penetrate the inner circle. You're a physical and emotional presence. The great thing about this movie, the power dynamics and how they shift on a dime in a moment. I think people will get from our conversation that this movie is not an easy set, but it is getting at something that is. So people talked. Saltburn. I kept thinking of Entourage. What if Entourage wasn't just this empty, aspirational wish fulfillment for 14 year old boys? What if it really got at something really drilled down into these shifting power dynamics instead of just paying lip service to it? I really dug this.
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Aisha Harris
Yeah.
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Linda Holmes
And that's what the writer and director has talked about, is that he was interested in these circles of young men where they're very, very competitive with each other.
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Glenn Weldon
But.
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Linda Holmes
And what I really like about it, and we've alluded to this a couple of times, is that there is not an unambiguous statement from the film that, like, here is the good guy and here's the bad guy. Right. Is Matthew sort of stalking this guy? Yes, definitely. Is Matthew kind of doing a lot of manipulative things to kind of work his way into this circle? Yes. But at the same time, you can see how Oliver is guilty of this kind of beautiful kid gets fascinated by somebody and then gets bored with them and then needs a new person who's just so excited to be around him. And so you can also understand that Oliver is contributing to this and being unkind by sort of needing that constant feeding. And there are kind of a couple of guys who are with him all the time to last throughout all of this. But then a lot of these people who clearly just kind of come and go, and the ghosts of those other people are very present in the story. I don't want to explain exactly how it plays out, but I said to Aisha when we talked about this, like, I'm not sure I completely buy the very end of this, but by then I think I was so impressed by the dynamics that it had set up and the way that it uses this idea of kind of, you know, home video and documentary filmmaking and that that becomes this way that Matthew is kind of constantly gazing at Oliver.
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Aisha Harris
Yeah.
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Linda Holmes
Gee, I just. It's real good. It's real good.
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Aisha Harris
I guess I don't exactly buy the very end either, but I also think another sort of comp that I envisioned while watching this film was Drake in terms of, like, the way certain people, certain artists tend to have yes men in their crew and people who will nod and say yes to whatever and who also seem desperate to be loved in, like, the most superficial way, but, like, loved, adored. Playing every person against each other. And everyone knows what's happening. Everyone knows, but they go along with it because they want to latch on. And Ali is not nearly as obnoxious as Drake is. He's not as, like. He doesn't have that same kind of, like, icky Persona, but he does have that capability of, like, using people in a way that is a little different from Matthew, but he still uses them. We talked about a little bit about their crew, Zack Fox, who.
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Stephen Thompson
Yeah, I wanted to talk about one.
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Aisha Harris
Of the most hilarious, like, anytime he's in something. So Zack Fox, he played Janine's ex boyfriend on Abbott Elementary. That's probably.
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Stephen Thompson
That's the obstacle boyfriend in Abbott Elementary.
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Aisha Harris
Yes, yes, yes. He is one of the men in Ollie's circle. And the way that him and everyone really, as soon as Matthew steps in, they all clock. Like at one point, you know, Matthew calls him Ollie and he's like, oh, you're calling this dude Ali already? And he's like, he's ribbing him, right? Like, oh, all of those very awkward moments of like, why are you here? Also, Havana Rose Liu as Shai, who's like the one woman who kind of is like the mother hen, for lack of a better word. Like, she is the one who kind of like is the most together and not just kind of, you know, crapping around. She says at one point, like, you need to figure out how to make yourself useful. And it's just so good at those interactions and that kind of like hanger on sociability that is happening within this group.
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Linda Holmes
Well, and it's like, is she the kindest to him or is she the most evil? Cause she's essentially the person who is telling this incredibly needy kid how to burrow himself more deeply into this situation that she knows is gonna hurt him. You know, I mean, I don't mean evil exactly, but like, she's an enabler.
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Aisha Harris
That's what I would say.
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Linda Holmes
She's an enabler kind of of both of them in a way.
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Stephen Thompson
I also love the way the people who are kind of grappling for position near the bottom of this pecking order are fleshed out as characters and are given clear motiv. You have this dynamic between Matthew and not only like kind of the other videographer guy, Noah, played by Daniel Zogadri.
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Aisha Harris
The guy who was there first.
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Stephen Thompson
Yeah, the guy who was there first. And Matthew is kind of encroaching on Noah's territory. Noah knows it. You get this kind of battle for primacy between them. But then underneath, Matthew is coming. Matthew's old co worker and friend Jamie, played by Sonny Soljic, who Glenn alluded to earlier. You the threat that they are posing to each other. And so like, one thing I really love about this film is it's not just kind of a battle between Oliver and Matthew and kind of who has the upper hand. And is Matthew able to fully ingratiate himself into Oliver's world, but you have lots of these shades of gray and lots of relationships between these other characters in this film that are fully fleshed out without making the film feel padded.
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Glenn Weldon
And I think a lot of that is on the back. Madequi as Oliver. This film doesn't work unless we see Oliver's complicitness. He's the guy who invited the vampire inside. His hunger for connection, validation. It's vulnerability. I mean, he plays such a great. Like, he's bluff, he's puffed up, he's cocky, he's confident, except when he isn't. And then all of a sudden he isn't. And, you know, in thrillers and especially in Hitchcock films, there's this moment in a conversation between this is reductive, but the good guy and the bad guy, where the good guy suddenly realizes that the bad guy is the bad guy. And it all happens underneath the conversation. But they hold each other's gaze in a way that thesis papers are written. That could be seen as sexual. But this movie, I think in a really smart way, in a really uncomfortable scene, goes out of its way to say, that's not really what's going on here. What's really going on here is a betrayal of trust, a fundamental betrayal of trust. It comes from the fact that intimacy comes with vulnerability. And that moment that I'm talking about, which we can't get too deep into, is a moment of recognizing that your vulnerability is being exploited. That's this whole movie.
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Linda Holmes
Yeah. When we talked about this with Saltburn, you know, where is the line between, as Aisha alluded to earlier, sexual desire for this person and almost wanting to eat them, you know what I mean? Almost wanting to swallow them whole. There is such a desire to possess and consume this person. The engine that drives this entire story is that both Oliver and Matthew are just black holes of need, whether it's attention or prominence or the way it makes Matthew feel when he becomes somebody who has been tagged in enough Instagram posts that now people know who he is. When Oliver and all of Oliver's circle start following him on Instagram and he.
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Aisha Harris
Realizes he takes a screenshot as it's happening.
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Linda Holmes
This is gonna give him his own following. Sort of his own following, but again.
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Stephen Thompson
An entirely conditional following.
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Aisha Harris
Yes.
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Linda Holmes
It all belongs to his relationship with Oliver. And so you can understand why, you know, as somebody who is so deeply, deeply needy, the more he realizes that he's gotten what he desperately wants in some ways. But it's all, as you said, Steven, conditional on retaining this relationship. Not even a relationship, but just a proximity, then you can really understand how that scramble at the bottom of the food chain, particularly between him and Jaime. I think those moments when you realize, like, how much he's going to freak out about something that involves Jaime.
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Stephen Thompson
Yeah.
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Glenn Weldon
And that's all compounded by the nature of this camera work, which has a handheld quality. It's constantly on the move, constantly searching for something. Cause these characters are always searching for something, trying to find something in the scene.
- [16:03]
Aisha Harris
Yeah. Going back to sort of what you were saying, Linda, him suddenly gaining all these followers. That is another thing that this movie gets so right. There is a key scene where, you know, he's out on the street and he gets recognized by someone. This person is just like, yeah, you, like, inspire me to be myself. But then he's like, but also like, what do you do? And that question is, I don't want to be reductive and say it's like the definition of our times. But, like, it is kind of like, what are so many people doing for jobs they're not actually doing? And Ali, at least, is a pop star, so we know what he does to some extent. Matthew doesn't want to be a pop star himself. This isn't like an All About Eve situation. It's just like he wants to reap the benefits of being in proximity to a pop star. And that makes it a little bit different from a lot of other of these, like, obsession films, in a way.
- [16:57]
Stephen Thompson
And I think part of what works so well about it is how quickly Matthew comes to see himself as an artist.
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Aisha Harris
An artist who will craft Ollie's image in that.
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Linda Holmes
Yeah.
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Stephen Thompson
Oh, my gosh. I think that's such a clever touch. Like, he's not just a hanger on. He has decreed himself to be part of this art that everyone is talking about. Yeah.
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Aisha Harris
Just by filming bike stunts and lambs and sheep and whatever.
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Linda Holmes
And I think when you talk about that like, that he wants to reap the benefits of the fame and the appreciation that Oliver has. I think one of those benefits is really just having an identity. He's kind of lost. He doesn't really feel like anybody. He doesn't feel like anybody cares about him. You know, they show in the trailer, Oliver saying, I guess that means you're my best friend. And when you watch that scene, you kind of understand that Oliver is saying it in a certain way, but you also look at it and you go, oh, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
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Aisha Harris
Ollie is a goober. He's kind of a goober. Like, poor.
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Linda Holmes
He is. I think that's an important part of the dynamic. He is not a Machiavellian, you know, manipulator on purpose, I don't think. He's also very, very needy and very, very young.
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Glenn Weldon
I just watched this movie going, oh, don't be in your 20s. Oh, don't ever be in your 20s.
- [18:22]
Linda Holmes
Well, I am extremely curious to hear whether other people have the same reactions to this film that we did. It is in theaters now. Tell us what you think about Lurker. Find us on Facebook@facebook.com PCH and on Letterboxd@letterboxd.com NPRpopculture. We'll have a link in our episode description. Up next, what's making us happy this week?
- [18:47]
NPR Sponsor Announcer
This message comes from FX's Alien Earth. From creator Noah Hawley and executive producer Ridley Scott comes the first television series inspired by the legendary Alien film franchise. A spaceship crash lands on Earth, bringing five unique and deadly species more terrifying than anyone could have ever imagined. And a technological advancement marks a new dawn in the race for immortality. FX's alien Earth all new Tuesdays on FX and Hulu. This message comes from Schwab at Schwab. How you invest is your choice, not theirs. That's why when it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices. You can invest and trade on your own. Plus get advice and more comprehensive wealth solutions to help meet your unique needs. With award winning service, low costs and transparent advice, you can manage your wealth your way at Schwab. Visit schwab.com to learn more. This message comes from BetterHelp. As a dad, BetterHelp President Fernando Madera relates to needing flexibility when it comes to scheduling therapy.
- [19:56]
Linda Holmes
I have kids under 18, so like time is very limited. That's why at BetterHelp our therapists try to have sessions, sometimes at night, depending on the therapist, or during the weekend. So, so I think that's what we need to tell the parents. You're not alone.
- [20:10]
Aisha Harris
We can help you out.
- [20:12]
NPR Sponsor Announcer
If a flexible schedule would help you, visit betterhelp.com NPR for 10% off your first month of online therapy. This message comes from NPR sponsor Capella University. Sometimes it takes a different approach to pursue your goals. Capella is an online university accredited by the Higher Learning Commission. That means you can earn your degree from wherever you are and be confident your education is relevant, recognized and respected. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more about earning a relevant degree@capella.edu.
- [20:48]
Linda Holmes
Now it is time for our favorite segment of this week and every week. What's making us happy this week? Glenn Weldon, I'm going to start with you. What is making you happy this week?
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Glenn Weldon
Okay, well, I heard from some folks who watched the James Gunn Superman movie and saw that end bit with Millie Alcock as Supergirl and wondered, what's that about? What's her whole deal? And I got good news for them because this doesn't happen often in comics. But there is a single book you can go to to get completely up to speed on her whole deal. It's an eight issue run of comics called Woman of Tomorrow. It's collected now in a trade paperback. It's written by Tom King with art by Bukus Evoley. It's a space opera meets samurai epic meets true grit. This book is what they're gonna be basing the Supergirl movie that's coming up on, which is a very smart decision. That is the trade paperback Supergirl, Woman of Tomorrow.
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Linda Holmes
Supergirl, Woman of Tomorrow. Thank you very much, Glenn Weldon. You always thrill me with things I've never hear. I appreciate it very much. Aisha Harris, what is making you happy this week?
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Aisha Harris
Well, keeping on the theme with our very dark and cringy film lurker, I am very happy that I recently watched Misericordia from the French filmmaker Alain Gihodi. I highly suggest avoid going to the Wikipedia page because last I checked, it gave away the entire plot in just a handful of sentences. And the less known going in, the better. But the basic gist of this is that a character named Jeremy, played by Felik, he returns to his small hometown in France to attend the funeral of his former boss. He winds up staying in town a little longer than he intended, which stirs up some drama, including with the boss's son, who used to be Jeremy's friend. And then it gets just like really dark and weird, but also comedic and fun. It features one of the weirdest and most surprising scenes involving confession with a priest that I have ever seen. I really loved it. It's Misericordia and it's streaming on Criterion and it's also available to rent on Demand.
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Linda Holmes
All right, thank very much, Aisha Harris. Also thrilling, something I admit, I have heard of. All right, Stephen Thompson, what is making you happy this week?
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Stephen Thompson
Well, I've got a wonderful singer songwriter that maybe Linda hasn't heard of, a fantastic singer songwriter from Australia named Sophie Peyton, who records under the name Gordy. Now, she has an absolutely fantastic new record called, like Plasticine. And the sound of this record is kind of toggling between these beautiful, bleary kind of haunting, slower song, and then these effervescent spangly poppy marvels like this perfect song called Cutting Room Floor. And I will only persevere for so.
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Glenn Weldon
Long.
- [23:33]
Stephen Thompson
That I am a sucker for the show.
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Aisha Harris
That was going on.
- [23:39]
Linda Holmes
Not anymore.
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Stephen Thompson
For songs just bloom in this majestic, gorgeous way. I've gone back to this record again and again and it's only been out for like two weeks. I really, really highly recommend that people check it out. That's Gordy. The album is called, like, Plasticine.
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Aisha Harris
I've not heard of that, but I want to hear more of it.
- [24:03]
Stephen Thompson
It's Ayesha Kaur. You'll love it.
- [24:04]
Aisha Harris
Yeah. Yeah.
- [24:06]
Linda Holmes
I enjoyed that very much and indeed I had never heard it.
- [24:09]
Aisha Harris
Thank you very much.
- [24:10]
Linda Holmes
Steven Thompson, have I got a game for people who listen to pop culture happy hour? It is a game called Tiny Bookshop. It is exactly what it sounds like. You run a tiny bookshop in a breezy little town full of friendly locals. You stock your bookshop by buying books from several different genres, crime, kids, travel, nonfiction, classics, whatever. And then people drop by and they buy books if they can find what they're looking for. The best part is they start asking you to recommend a book for them so you can look at your shelves and you can see what particular books you have in stock. And they are real books. You can try to get like a little bit creative, like maybe they ask for a crime book, but maybe you have an exciting true story that you think will work based on the little description that they give you. And maybe it's a little bit of a risk, but you think they're going to like it. You can take that little risk, see if they buy it, see if it pays off. There is a lot more to this game. You can also decorate your little shop and add shelves and stuff like that. And, you know, it kind of grows. So this is again Tiny Bookshop and it is available right now on Steam for PCs and Macs and also available for the Switch, which is where I have played it.
- [25:31]
Aisha Harris
That's one of the nerdiest things we've recommended in a minute on this show. I love it. It sounds like roller coaster tycoon, but for public media.
- [25:41]
Glenn Weldon
Yes. Just makes me think what font should I make my shelf tags in? You know what I mean?
- [25:47]
Linda Holmes
Tiny Bookshop. That is what is making me happy this week. If you want links for what we recommended, plus some additional recommendations, you can sign up for our newsletter. That's at npr.org popculturenewsletter that brings us to the end of this year's show. Aisha Harris, Stephen Thompson, Glenn Weldon, and thank you so much for being here. I promise to never follow any of you around as much as I admire you.
- [26:09]
Aisha Harris
Thank you, Linda.
- [26:10]
Stephen Thompson
Thank you you can follow me around anytime, buddy.
- [26:13]
Linda Holmes
All right. This episode was produced by Liz Metzger, Janae Morris and Mike Catseff and edited by our showrunner, the great Jessica Reedy. And hello. Come in provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. I'm Linda Holmes, and we'll see you all next week.
- [26:34]
NPR Sponsor Announcer
This message comes from NPR sponsor Capella University. Interested in a quality online education? Capella is accredited by the Higher Learning Commission. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more@capella.edu. this message comes from NPR sponsor Viori. Featuring the core short receive 20% off your first purchase on any US orders over $75 and free returns@vuori.com NPR exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions.
- [27:09]
Linda Holmes
This message comes from Mint Mobile. Mint Mobile took what's wrong with wireless and made it right. They offer premium wireless plans for less and all plans include high speed data, unlimited talk and text and nationwide coverage. See for yourself@mintmobile.com Switch.