Aisha Harris (3:34)

Yeah. Sean Penn is sort of the locus for this racist, xenophobic, all of these things.

Glenn Weldon (3:40)

Yeah. He's the face.

Aisha Harris (3:41)

He is hamming it up. And I don't mean that in a derogatory way. He seems to be having maybe too good of a time playing this character.

Monica Castillo (3:48)

He's been waiting his whole life to play this kind of villain. Yeah, he's so good at it. So scary. I didn't recognize him at first, and then I realized who it was and.

Aisha Harris (3:56)

I'm like, yeah, neither did I. Oh, God.

Monica Castillo (3:58)

Oh, my God. I also really loved it. I was super on board with it. You know, I think we sometimes we take Paul Thomas Anderson for granted because, of course, he's such a great filmmaker. Of course he's gonna give us something good. And. And not only does he push himself and really try different things, both visually and narratively, it just feels like everything works together so precisely. Very entertaining. Completely riveted. I can't believe that he just, like, grabbed onto that third rail of like, let's talk about politics right now and made an exciting thriller out of it. I mean, one of the best sequences in this movie is a car chase that I really want to single out. I got to see this in IMAX and I felt like I'd never seen a car chase that good before.

Glenn Weldon (4:41)

Exactly.

Monica Castillo (4:42)

I mean, it was eye poppingly beautiful. So shout out to Anderson and his cinematographer Michael Bauman, who he worked with on licorice pizza. So they're back together again and it is just incredible. Just so awe inspiring. I also went back and visited some of Anderson's previous works and getting to see like little threads of things throughout his career that he's bringing back for one battle after another. There's a beautiful. It's just a little scene of just like a camera on top of a car door that's being closed at the same time. But it just feels so exciting and it's borrowed from Punch. Dark Love. You know, the kinds of painterly compositions that he uses for. The Master is also here on display. He's just so good at what he does and he comes out swinging. I mean it is a masterclass. Firing it all on cylinders. I can't say enough great things about this movie. I think we're gonna be talking about this one for a while.

Aisha Harris (5:33)

Yeah. I love that you talked about the car chase scene because it really is. I mean there's not really. You can't really give away a car chase scene. But like, I do find it fascinating that it takes place in the desert and it's the hilliest desert I have ever seen. And I've driven through a lot of desert. A lot of it is flat or if you're driving through it, it's very slow ascent. It kind of felt like French Connection, but in the desert because there's just like so many hills. It's like what is happening here? But it's so well paced and so well choreographed. This movie comes in at almost three hours and I did not feel those almost three hours.

Monica Castillo (6:07)

Not at all.

Glenn Weldon (6:07)

Absolutely.

Aisha Harris (6:08)

I agree with so much of what you both have said. I have a couple of small nits and they keep this from being a great movie for me, from a very good. But I think that Leonardo DiCaprio, we've kind of seen him play a sort of character like this in like Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. I feel at least in the second half of this movie, you know, when he is very. Just kind of checked out and washed up, as we said. But it's fun, it's funny. There's a whole sequence where he is trying to charge his phone while also trying to remember a code that he got 16 years earlier to identify himself in order to get help from the French 75.

Glenn Weldon (6:51)

What time is it? You know, I don't. I don't. I don't remember that part. All right, let's just not nitpick over the password stuff. Look, this is Bob Ferguson.

Aisha Harris (7:01)

All right?

Glenn Weldon (7:01)

You just called my house. Let's cut the I need the wrong neighbor point. What?

Aisha Harris (7:07)

The sequence goes on for a very long time, but it is great. It's so well sustained, and you have Benicio del Toro playing with it and just being cool. That's what Benicio del Toro is really good at. I just found this really, really fun. I do want to kind of talk about the way this movie does incorporate the more topical and very of the moment issues, because at the center and what I think most of Anderson's focus is on, like, this relationship between Willa and Bob, father and daughter, and then, of course, Colonel Lockjaw and this kind of triangular thing. But then it opens with the French 75, this radical group infiltrating and freeing detained immigrants. And we see that happen again later on. We see what's happening in the way that people have to feel like they're forced into hiding. This movie has a lot of tunnels and a lot of, like, walking to places both sinister but also liberating. I kind of want to pull a little bit more on that and how you feel. Anderson weaves those in and sometimes takes a backseat, I think. And I wonder how that worked for you. I'm curious.

Glenn Weldon (8:13)

Well, what occurred to me is that this movie's understanding of counterculture radicalism is more layered than it appears on the surface, because DiCaprio is so. He's doing so much that he kind of steals focus. But if you grew up anytime after the 60s, your understanding of what the 60s counterculture was was. If you think about it, it was dictated entirely to you by the culture that the counterculture was trying to counter. Right. So history is written by the winners. And 60s radicals and revolutionaries have been portrayed in mainstream culture forever as hippies, burnouts, losers, you know, dismissable. So DiCaprio represents that archetype. Now, it's not 60s radical culture here. It's more contemporary.

Aisha Harris (8:52)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Glenn Weldon (8:52)

But his character is a loser. Even when his group experiences a win, as it does in those opening scenes you mentioned, he's still nervous, he's needy, He's a raw nerve. That's my favorite DiCaprio you mentioned once Upon a time in Hollywood. We also see a bit of it in Wolf of Wall Street. He's feckless, he's insuffic. You tell me if you think this is a stretch. I think he's the audience surrogate.

Aisha Harris (9:11)

Oh, yeah.

Glenn Weldon (9:11)

When we catch up to him 16 years later, he's gone complacent with weed and booze and TV and watching the Battle of Algiers. And the film's world is very specific. It doesn't seem to be at first, but it is, because the world he worked to prevent has come to pass. And it literally has in the world of the movie, which is maybe the most Pynchon esque little filigree bit that's kind of staying in the film because it's a very loose adaptation on the Thomas Pynchon novel Vineland. Because it's not white supremacy writ large as a cultural reality. There is this very specific white supremacist secret society. It's strongly implied that it actually runs the damn country. And so, you know, that's when you kind of recalibrate the Leo DiCaprio character, because he's not paranoid, because people are actually out to get him. So he's not paranoid, he's just perceptive. And I think if people think of that secret society as a cop out, which I would have even a year ago. I mean, in drama, in fiction, you need to particularize and localize what you're fighting against. 250 years of systemic oppression needs a face, right? A face you can punch. And this film smartly, in the end, I think this one was filled with very punchable faces that I wanted to see punched.

Aisha Harris (10:15)

Yes. Including Tony Goldwyn, AKA Fitz, from Scandal.

Monica Castillo (10:18)

Oh, yes. Surprise, surprise. I also can relate to, you know, the need or, like, the sort of, like, malaise that sets in after so many years of trying to fight the power. It gets really exhausting. And maybe you just want to live life. Maybe that's all you have the bandwidth for. You know, there's been so much conversation over the past few years since the Black Lives Matters movement and different things like that. How do you sustain a cultural momentum like that in these kinds of movements, in these grassroots organizing? And what happens next? Is this a lifelong thing? How do you make it a lifelong thing without necessarily burning out? Because burning out is a real reality for a lot of folks, especially for as much activism as Leonardo DiCaprio's character takes on. He's really involved with this countercultural group, and then all of a sudden he tries to go back to life. As a civilian. And it turns out that you can't always go back. So that's a very real discussion. In reality, that happens in countries the world over, let alone what might happen here. It was an interesting sort of tension there to see. Yeah, you can tap into the movement, but you can't necessarily always quit it.

Glenn Weldon (11:31)

Right.

Aisha Harris (11:31)

Let me lay all my cards out on the table, which is that the more I've mulled over on this, the more I've come around, this is very, very good. I want to watch this movie again. Same, I think, to your point, Glenn, about how it really kind of captures what it means, like, when the revolution is no longer sexy. Like, it's sexy until it's not. You know, eventually most, if not all, revolutionaries find themselves in their older age. Whether it's actually the system breaking them down or just getting older, maybe getting a bit more conservative, things just change. And I love that aspect of this film and how seriously it takes it. I think for me, where I was wanting something a little bit different. And it's always a gamble to argue that a movie should have been this when it's not, because it's like you have to judge what's on the screen. But I do think the movie does give me something that I wanted more of. And that is, you know, this idea of Teyana Taylor's character, Graffitia, and what exactly her motivations are beyond just being a black woman. Yeah, that's not his focus. And I wonder, is it because. Because Leo is a bigger name and is a white man, and he just understands it more. Like, the whole white supremacy stuff, I was totally on board with. I wanted Perfidia. That part of it felt a little surface level for me because it kind of rushes by really, really quickly in the first act of this movie. Cause we're in the past and we're seeing them before they've had their daughter. And she's such a fascinating character because she is kind of like a. A Pam grier in the 70s. Like, she is depicted as, like, this revolutionary black power figure, but then she's using her sexuality and actually gets off to some extent on wielding a gun and on having this sort of power. And there's even a moment when they're robbing a bank and Juggle Pussy, who is the rapper who plays a character named Juggle Pussy in this movie. And she's part of the French 75. At one point she says, like, I am what black power looks like. And I was like, okay, Ye. I guess what I wanted more of was Like, a little bit more of an understanding of what that revolution is for those black characters. Because it does mean something, the fact that we know that they're the ones leading this, and people like Leo are just kind of along for the ride. And Alanna Hayam also shows up very briefly, like, kind of blink if you miss it as part of the group. But the black and brown people are leading this charge. And I kind of wanted a little bit more of that before we turn to focusing on. On the Leo character. And I think that's kind of where I. And also, like, Regina hall is in this movie. I was gonna say she is completely under you.

Monica Castillo (14:11)

Yeah.

Glenn Weldon (14:12)

Okay. This is not an excuse, but here's what I think was happening in PTA's mind. He wants to say I need to represent the culturally common idea of a revolutionary. That's DiCaprio. He also wants to acknowledge that he is not the whole story. We see in this movie that revolution, or at least resistance, is a noble thing. And that revolutionaries can also be competent. And you wann. And yes, if they take the form of Teyana Taylor, they can be sexy. I agree, that's pretty much all she is in this movie. That's her characterization. But in the same way, if it takes the form of Benicio Del Toro, revolution can be chill as hell. And I would argue that chill as hell is also pretty much the extent of his. That's who he is. But, you know, he's effective. I mean, there's a lot of really compelling images in this film, including that chase scene you guys talked about. But the one that I'm gonna be kept with is the silhouettes of these kids leaping across rooftops. Joyful, purposeful, gorgeous. And then I think what he's trying to say, and I don't think he's doing it in a particularly layered way, but he's saying, that's the resistance. And then we see DiCaprio huffing and puffing behind them. And then he's like, that's us. Right. Which is why I think the film wants to be a call to action, but not a humorless or didactic one, but a fun one. It is a mainstream movie that has subversiveness at its center. It's not a deep subversiveness, but it's there. And all it's really saying is, get off the couch, look around and help each other. And I bought it.

Monica Castillo (15:35)

Yeah, I really dug the fact that you have so many different examples of. Of what a revolutionary leader looks like. Whether that's more the showstopper More the person who gets off on control, like Perfidia or like Deandra, which is Regina Hall's character. Like, she's way more in control than I think almost anyone else in the movie up until a certain point. And she's kind of running, you know, a good portion of that movie. I enjoyed that. And same thing with Beniso Del Toro. Even though he has this very cool reflective service, like nothing's gonna trouble him. He's overseeing a huge oper. And, you know, while Leo's character, Bob is freaking out and like throwing himself on the floor to not be seen by the cops, Benicio is like just slowly and purposely packing his stuff, getting ready to go onto the next mission. So you have all different kinds of responses to this moment of action, a moment of crisis.

Aisha Harris (16:29)

Absolutely. I think all of those points, I agree with them and I think they're so important to point out. I have to say, like, this is, again, this is a me sort of critique, I think also I'm just looking at it from the sense of like, the history of black people on film and black women specifically on film, and how you are kind of like playing with fire here. To have a black woman character who is so sexualized in a way and in a violent way. And I'm not saying he doesn't necessarily pull it off, but I do think that I wanted a little bit more complications with that. And also, again, this movie is almost three hours long. I'm not sure what I would cut to make make more room for that. I will say, while I felt I wanted a little bit more from Teyana Taylor's character and Regina Hall's character, we do get to spend a good amount of time with Willa, Bob and Perfidia's daughter, who's played by Chase Infinity, who is actually new to me.

Monica Castillo (17:24)

Yeah, also new to me. I think she does an astounding job with the complexity of the role. First you get to meet her. She's like this naughty 16 year old who doesn't trust her dad or just eye rolls, whatever. He's freaking out about something. And also kind of, to be fair.

Aisha Harris (17:41)

Bob is a like, no phones, not world's best dad.

Monica Castillo (17:46)

She is actually kind of looking out for him at that beginning set and then is trying to get him to wake up essentially. And then she is kind of coming into her own at this moment and this again, moment of crisis, and has to kind of reckon with her family's past, her own role in this. And what is she gonna do? Is she gonna run away. Is she gonna stand and fight? There's a big and I mean, she throws her all into it. I mean, she's really great and such a great scene partner for Leo as well.

Aisha Harris (18:20)

Yeah, she is a very convincing 16 year old who is both sheltered but also is like, whatever, dad. I'm doing what I need to do to try and feel as normal as possible. I think overall, like, this is such a, I don't know. Paul Dahmer's Anderson for me, has never made a bad movie. You know, this is his 10th feature. He's just one of our most consistent working directors today. I'm just very happy that he even decided that, like I want to at least try to address something that is happening now, something that's been happening for a very long time. But yeah, it's a fun time. I think people are gonna have thoughts about it. You should definitely tell us what you think about one battle after another because there is so much to talk about, so much to chew on. I'm gonna see it again and who knows, I might see it again and change my mind completely on how I feel about this. But find us on Facebook@facebook.com PCHH and on Letterboxd@letterboxd.com NPRpopculture we'll have a link to that in our episode description. And up next, what's making us happy this week?

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Aisha Harris (21:21)

Hey y'. All, before we get back to the show. Yes, you. You with impeccable taste in podcasts. If pop culture Happy hour has ever helped you win a group chat, debate, debate, find a hit series before everyone else or pretend you saw that movie. You definitely didn't. Do us a solid and leave the show a review. Wherever you listen to podcasts, it helps more people find us and helps us make the show even better for you. And now it's time for our favorite segment of this week and every week. What's making us happy? Monica, let us know so this past.

Monica Castillo (21:51)

Saturday, Amazon hosted a live stream of the end of Bad Bunny's residency at El Choli and Puerto Rico. It was the end of his no Me Quiero y de Aqui residency, so it was a big to do for those of us who were able to log into the broadcast. Great. If you missed it, I'm so sorry. But good news is there's like little clips and everything that keep circulating and I'm so in love with the number of memes and reactions and posts that people have been doing ever since then. It just felt like a moment for the community to come together and enjoy something kind of celebrate Latino joy that even if we aren't Puerto Rico, we can all still take joy in each other's arts, send support and solidarity for a lot of the things that Bad Bunny was singing about and drawing awareness to. It really felt like a moment that we all kind of tuned in and watched the same show at the same time, which we don't usually get to experience that much. So I was glad for it and I'm glad that the memes and the videos are living on and having a second life, even though the livestream has expired.

Aisha Harris (22:53)

So that was Bad Bunny's final for his residency, which was livestreaming on Amazon. And we should note that Amazon supports NPR and pays to distribute some of our content. Thank you so much. Monica. That was great. Glenn, what is making you happy this week?

Glenn Weldon (23:10)

Plainclothes is a film that's in theaters now. It stars Russell Tovey and Tom Blyth. It's the debut feature from writer director Carmen Emme. And it's about a young undercover cop played by Blythe, whose job it is to entrap and arrest gay men cruising in public toilets. You will not be surprised to learn that the Blythe character is very deeply conflicted about this because he's still wait for it in the closet. And then hot daddy Russell Tovey shows up into the men's room, and complications ensue. This movie isn't reinventing the wheel, but it's a solid wheel that is not overwritten. It's really solid. And I should note that some reviewers haven't liked some of the film's stylistic flourishes. It's with just a handheld video at certain, you know, really emotional moments. I kind of love that, frankly, especially when you consider the film's really about surveillance. It made sense to me, and I'm curious to see what Emmy does next, which is the best thing a first film can do. So that is Plainclothes. It's in theaters now.

Aisha Harris (24:00)

Thank you so much. I've heard nothing but good things about it. So I am definitely gonna add that to my very, very long to watch list.

Monica Castillo (24:08)

No, I wanna catch up with that one. I missed it at Sundance.

Aisha Harris (24:10)

Yes, so did I. Well, one movie that I did not miss at Sundance is actually my happy this week. And it is one of the best things I saw at the festival this year. That is Predators, which is directed and produced by David Ossett. You may be familiar if you're of the show To Catch a Predator, which first aired as a new segment in 2004 on Dateline NBC and then continued for a few years after. And I don't really remember watching this myself, but once I watched this documentary, I was like, oh, yeah. This was the format of the show, which was adults who could convincingly look like they were minors would impersonate minors online, then lure would be sex offenders to a house that was part of an undercover operation. And then the host, Chris Hansen, would show up, confront, and reveal the entire production crew hidden in the house. And then afterwards, they would usually be arrested by police waiting outside. This documentary is so fascinating because it focuses on the consequences and the effects on those who were involved, including, you know, the emotional toll it took on the decoys who were being used to lure these people. And also the highly publicized suicide that led to a lawsuit and then the end of the program eventually. This is a doc that kind of like adds, what has all of this wrought? Like, did this actually work to stem abuse, or was this just another form of shame humiliation put on display for everyone's entertainment? So it's really complicated. It's really layered and really harrowing and devastating. And I highly recommend it. So that's Predators. It is in theaters, limited release currently, and then it's supposed to expand nationwide on October 3rd. It's tough stuff, but also really, really fascinating as well. That's what's making me happy this week. If you want to links for what we recommended, plus more recommendations, you should definitely sign up for our newsletter@npr.org popculturenewsletter that brings us to the end of our show. Monica Castillo, Glenn Walden, thanks so much for being here.

Glenn Weldon (26:07)

Thank you.

Monica Castillo (26:08)

Thanks for having me.

Aisha Harris (26:09)

This episode was produced by Liz Metzger, Carly Rubin and Mike Katsif, and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. Hello. Kamin provides our theme music. Thanks so much for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. I'm Ayesha Harris, and we'll see see you all next week.

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