Rereading Pride & Prejudice

Summary

Pop Culture Happy Hour – "Rereading Pride & Prejudice"

Date: December 2, 2025
Host: Linda Holmes with Andrew Limbong, BA Parker, and guest Siyavash Madani
Special Series: Books We've Loved (From NPR's Book of the Day)

---

Episode Overview

This episode celebrates Jane Austen's 250th birthday by revisiting "Pride and Prejudice." Linda Holmes, Andrew Limbong, and BA Parker explore Austen’s classic, discuss its ongoing cultural resonance, examine its influence on the romance genre, and share their personal histories with the book. The team dissects why this novel remains so beloved—and so funny—even two centuries after publication.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Connections & First Encounters

• Andrew Limbong admits he's a newcomer to Austen and had avoided the book in school for modernist literature, but found it "quite a fun read."
  • “It’s about how you cannot tell Lizzie Bennet what to do.” [01:52]
• BA Parker read it first at 15 after watching "Bridget Jones's Diary," which sparked her interest in the source material.
  • Parker describes her backwards journey: film adaptation → Bridget Jones novel → "Pride and Prejudice." [04:37]
• Linda Holmes can’t remember exactly when she read it but references the impact of the 1995 BBC adaptation starring Colin Firth. [04:59]

2. The Surprise of Austen’s Humor

• The group discusses how new readers are often surprised by the novel’s wit.
  • Linda: “People think jokes were invented in, like, 1980… and it is sometimes really funny when people come across… Darcy... is horrified to find how pretty she is when he had been trying to keep distance from her.” [03:09]
• BA Parker: On rereading as an adult, the book felt “way more practical” and less exclusively romantic. [04:12]

3. Adaptations & Cultural Osmosis

• The hosts note the dominance of "Pride and Prejudice" across adaptations—from the BBC miniseries to the 2005 film—and its persistent reference point in romance culture.
• Linda: American audiences often split between the 1995 BBC miniseries and the 2005 Keira Knightley film, each shaping perceptions of the story’s romance. [05:24]

4. Elizabeth Bennet, the Proto-Independent Heroine

• Andrew labels Elizabeth “on the Mount Rushmore of ‘I’m Not Like Those Other Girls’”—like Jo March from "Little Women." [09:00]
• Linda points out that while Bridget Jones internalizes self-doubt, Lizzie Bennet is forthright and confident:
  • “Lizzie is very… well, this is how I see it. This is what I’m going to do… like it or lump it.” [09:17]

5. Marriage, Agency, and Maternal Wisdom

• Discussion of Helen Fielding’s NPR interview (1998) on the “links” between Bridget and Lizzie, highlighting how agency and the stakes of marriage have shifted. [10:35]
• Andrew raises the idea that, paradoxically, since Austen’s characters had few choices, marriage was an even bigger decision:
  • “To me, it seemed like they had more to give up because they had no other outlets for decision making.” [11:19]
• Parker and Andrew find themselves newly sympathetic to Mrs. Bennet, understanding her anxieties about her daughters’ futures in the social system:
  • Parker: “Does she lack discretion and is easily vexed? Yes. But she understands the rules of the game…” [12:08]
  • Andrew: On film adaptations oversimplifying Mrs. Bennet compared to the novel’s complexity. [12:38]
• Examination of how adaptations (like the 2005 film) often streamline or amplify the romance element for contemporary tastes.

6. The ‘Swoony’ Reputation and Romance Tropes

• Andrew ponders: “Is it this book’s fault that we as a culture walk away with that interpretation?” [14:14]
• Linda: reaffirms that while the enemies-to-lovers romance is “the juice” of the plot, adaptations and modern culture have flattened its nuance:
  • “It is that. It's just that it's also a bunch of other stuff... and I think the adaptations have... streamlined in favor of the romance.” [14:42]
• Parker: Austen’s works are now put “in this box of Regency era, like Bridgerton” and their nuance is often lost in cultural shorthand. [15:22]

7. Love Versus Practicality: What Is the ‘Win’?

• The difference between marrying for love (Jane & Lizzie) vs. marrying for security (Charlotte Lucas)—Key question:
  • Parker: “Is the marriage the win or is the love the win?” [22:00]
• Linda:
  • “Mrs. Bennet only asks for the people to be married. And I think that’s maybe where the tension comes in between those two ways of thinking about this kind of story.” [17:47]
• Discussion of the famous scene where Darcy clumsily declares his feelings, listing Lizzie’s family’s faults, and Lizzie’s delightfully cutting rejection.
  • Linda: “You have done this in a very horrible and insulting way.” [24:11]

8. Cultural Relevance: Then & Now

• Andrew draws parallels between the stakes of marriage in Austen’s world and those still present in other (non-Western) cultures:
  • “These are questions my aunts are still having today with their kids, you know, 100%.” [20:21]
• Linda: dismisses the binary that “people used to marry for position and now marry for love,” emphasizing ongoing societal and familial pressures. [20:39]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Linda Holmes on Austen’s lasting wit:

  "It is a general problem throughout society that people think jokes were invented in, like, 1980... It is a very funny book.” [03:09]

• Andrew on new perspectives:

  “To me, it seemed like they had more to give up because they had no other outlets for decision making.” [11:19]

• BA Parker’s modern Mrs. Bennet appreciation:

  “This was, like, the first time I was like, oh, Mrs. Bennet, I get it... you just want everyone to be okay.” [12:08]

• Linda on the nature of the romance genre:

  “The romance novel has to end with the people getting together at the end. ... the key ingredient is the romance genre asks for the people to be happy, and Mrs. Bennet only asks for the people to be married.” [17:44]

• Linda on timeless pleasure:

  “It should be read as pleasure, which I think it is.” [19:45]

• Andrew on the book’s influence:

  “Listening to the Beatles is what I was thinking of ... you gotta understand contemporary music before you can get to Take McRae.” [27:08]

• Linda on cultural literacy:

  “It's like reading the Bible in some ways... even if it's not your religion, it's very influential and you're gonna hear about it a lot.” [27:18]

---

Recommended Reads (“If you like this, read that”) [27:45]

• BA Parker:
  Unmarriageable by Soniah Kamal
  • “It's Pride and Prejudice set in contemporary Pakistan... it leans itself to the cultural mores of today.” [27:50]
• Andrew Limbong:
  Absalom, Absalom! by William Faulkner
  • Focused on the weight of family and burdens of tradition. [28:31]
• Linda Holmes:
  Red, White & Royal Blue by Casey McQuiston
  • A modern enemies-to-lovers romance with high-profile family expectations and “some of that is related to the fact that they're both guys, but some of it is really just what's expected of them because they're both incredibly high profile.” [29:05]

---

Final Thoughts on Pride & Prejudice’s Value Today [26:10]

• Linda Holmes:
  1. Its ongoing cultural influence
  2. The enduring, compelling love story
  3. “Because it is so funny and so much fun and mean… she is cutting.” [26:10-26:40]
• BA Parker:
  Austen’s archetypes serve as shorthand for contemporary stories about relationships. [26:41]
• Andrew Limbong:
  Comparing it to the Beatles or the Bible—a foundational text whether or not you “believe in it.” [27:08, 27:18]

---

Summary Table of Contents

| Time | Segment | Key Points/Quotes | |------------|-------------------------------------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:21-06:05| First Encounters & Adaptations | “It is a fun read.” -- “Colin Firth … is in.” | | 07:44-14:14| Cultural Influence & Feminism | Lizzie as “Not Like Other Girls” -- Agency & Mrs. Bennet | | 14:14-17:50| Romance Tropes, Adaptation Flattening | “Swoony” reputation -- Enemies to lovers groundwork | | 18:42-22:26| Textual Analysis & Social Commentary | “It should be read as pleasure ….” -- Modern echoes on love & marriage | | 22:59-25:04| Family, Suitability, Darcy’s Proposal | “It’s a very tough moment.” - Lizzy’s independence | | 26:02-31:00| Why Read Today? & Recommendations | “Funny and mean … she is cutting.” -- “Like reading the Bible …” |

---

This episode is a lively, often laugh-out-loud discussion that celebrates the complexity, humor, and enduring impact of Pride and Prejudice—not just as a romance, but as a sharp social commentary that’s as relevant now as it was 200 years ago. Whether you’re a longtime Austen devotee or discovering her for the first time, this episode captures why she still matters.

Transcript

[Announcer]

Support for npr and the following message come from 20th century studios with ella mckay, a new comedy from james l. Brooks starring emma mackey, jamie lee curtis with albert brooks and woody harrelson. See ella mckay only in theaters december 12th. Get tickets now.

[Linda Holmes]

Hey, it's Linda Holmes. This year, readers around the world are celebrating Jane Austen's 250th birthday. So today on Pop Culture Happy Hour, we're birthday bringing you an episode of NPR's Book of the Day podcast. They have a new series called Books We've Loved. Our pals Andrew Limbong and BA Parker are making timeless books timely again by rereading old favorite books and telling us why they matter today. Recently, I joined them to talk about Pride and Prejudice. We chat about how the romance genre continues to reference the book's enemies to lovers story and why Lizzie Bennet and Mr. Darcy and still make us laugh and swoon even today. Here's Andrew.

[Andrew Limbong]

Wow. We're about to enter a world I'm relatively new to, to not tease this out anymore. We are talking about Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice. It's a big one.

[Linda Holmes]

Yeah, it is.

[Andrew Limbong]

It's a big one. This is a doozy.

[Linda Holmes]

It looms large in many minds.

[BA Parker]

I'll just put it down 100%. Wait, are you a big Austin head?

[Linda Holmes]

Linda, I'm not a big Austin head. I have read some of the books and I have seen some of the films, but I am not the kind of Austin head that many of my acquaintances and friends are, which is to say, one of my friends has like led Austen tours around parts of England, and I'm not that kind.

[Andrew Limbong]

But, you know, my friend has been booked and busy this year.

[Linda Holmes]

Yeah. And I really, really, I really, really like this book. So.

[Andrew Limbong]

Yeah. All right. For the people who haven't read it, I just got a quick synopsis here. It's about how you cannot tell Lizzie Bennet what to do. Right. This book follows Elizabeth Bennet and her four sisters, travails and marriage. The central relationship in the book is the courtship between Lizzie, who comes from a relatively poor family, and the super rich Mr. Darcy. There's a lot of poor communication between the two, which sort of gives the book its juice until, spoiler alert, they end up happily ever after.

[BA Parker]

What?

[Andrew Limbong]

Yeah, we'll see. Yeah, I think that's fair, right? That's a fair summation. I'd never read this book before Andrew somehow made it through my life. It was never assigned to me in high school. By the time I got to college and was serious about, like, studying literature. I was pretty focused on, like, American modernism, and I just had no time for anything.

[BA Parker]

Sure, just you and Kerouac, and you were just like, no more.

[Andrew Limbong]

You know the deal. Come on.

[Linda Holmes]

Nobody reads everything. There are just certain people who are very good at giving you the impression that they read everything. They actually don't.

[Andrew Limbong]

Yeah, but, you know, this is the big 250th anniversary of Jane Austen. I know there's a lot of stuff going on, and I felt it incumbent to give it a shot. I'll just, like, give the top line. Quite a fun read.

[BA Parker]

Mm. Not bad.

[Linda Holmes]

It is a fun read.

[Andrew Limbong]

I like it.

[Siyavash Madani]

I'm into it.

[Linda Holmes]

It is a fun read. I think that's the thing that sometimes surprises people if they think of this as, like, a swoony romance book. I think when people find that it is a really funny book, they are sometimes a little bit surprised. Cause, I mean, it is a general problem throughout society that people think jokes were invented in, like, 1980. You know what I mean? And it is sometimes really funny when people come across, like, one thing fairly early in the book that I had highlighted is this moment when Darcy is talking about the fact that he had noticed that she has, like, lovely eyes, and he's starting to kind of be attracted to her and then talks about her eyes. And then the book says, to this discovery succeeded. Some others equally mortifying, which is very funny. It's the idea that, like, he's horrified to find how pretty she is when he had been kind of trying to keep distance from her. And those kinds of little asides, I think, sometimes startle new readers to this book who expect it to be very staid and very what they think of as early 19th century British. It's a very funny book.

[BA Parker]

Oh, I found it to be hilarious. Like, reading this as an adult, because I'd read it as, like, a teenager was, oh, this isn't as romantic as I remembered it to be. It's a way more practical approach to relationships.

[Andrew Limbong]

Wait, Parker, when did you first read it?

[BA Parker]

I read it when I was. I wanna say 15. Cause I.

[Andrew Limbong]

Was it like a school thing?

[BA Parker]

No, the first DVD I ever got was for Christmas, was Bridget Jones Diary.

[Linda Holmes]

There you go.

[BA Parker]

That my mom got me. And then. So I saw that was my connection to Bridget Jones Diary. And then I got the book from the library of Bridget Jones Diary, and then I got to Jane Austen. So it was little backwards way of getting there. Mm.

[Linda Holmes]

Mm.

[Andrew Limbong]

What about you, Linda? When did you first read it?

[Linda Holmes]

You know, I don't remember exactly when I first read this book. I may have come to it via the BBC adaptation in 1995 that Colin Firth is in and Jennifer ehley is in. Ms. Bennett, please allow me to apologize for not receiving it properly just now. You were not leaving?

[BA Parker]

We were, sir.

[Linda Holmes]

I think we must. I hope you're not displeased with Pemberley. No, not at all. Which is a very specific kind of take on the book. And I think for people who are American adults now, I most often encounter people who, from a film adaptation perspective, Favor either the BBC adaptation with Colin Firth or the 2005 film adaptation that Joe Wright directed with Keira Knightley and Matthew McFadden, who if you've seen Matthew McFadden as Tom on Succession, be very surprised to see him playing Darcy. It's a little different.

[Andrew Limbong]

Yeah. Well, like we said, this novel does loom large in culture, which we're going to take a break and then get to the sort of cultural impact of Pride and Prejudice. We'll be right back.

[Announcer]

This message comes from Cook Unity. The holidays are here, which means it's time for comfort, joy and really good food. Enjoy culinary masterpieces for way less than restaurants, takeout or the grocery store. Menus are updated weekly so meals are never boring or repetitive. Taste, comfort and craftsmanship in every bite. From the award winning chefs behind CookUnity. Go to cookunity.com happyhour or enter code happyhour before checkout to get 50% off your first order. Support for NPR and the following message come from Warby Parker, the one stop shop for all your vision needs. They offer expertly crafted prescription eyewear plus contacts, eye exams and more for everything you need to see. Visit your nearest Warby Parker store or head to warbyparker.com support for NPR. And the following message come from 20th Century Studios with Ella McKay, a new comedy from Academy Award winning writer director James L. Brooks. An idealistic young woman juggles her family and work life in a story about the people you love and how to survive them. Featuring an all star cast including Emma Mackey, Jamie Lee Curtis, Jack Lowden, Kumail Nanjani, Ayo Odebury, Spike Fern, Julie Kavner. With Albert Brooks and Woody Harrelson. See Ella McKay only in theaters December 12th. Get tickets now.

[Andrew Limbong]

All right, we're back. Before the break, we talked about our personal connections to Pride and Prejudice, but I want to zoom out and talk about the sort of cultural influence of the book. Let's just run through some quick Jane Austen bio just to give Us some grounding here. This book, Pride and Prejudice, was first titled First Impressions. Austen completed the draft in 1797, but the book itself wasn't published until 1813. All sections of her novels published during her lifetime were credited only as by a lady. And her name didn't appear on a book until after her death. She didn't really pop up. She had a modest readership, but wasn't, you know, capital J, capital A, Jane Austen until later in the 19th century. She sold the rights to Pride and prejudice for 110 pounds, which I think amounts to about 9,000 pounds today. Yeah. So she never got any royalties. You know, she signed one of those bad deals, like she was like a Motown act, you know, back in the day. And then she died relatively young. She died at 41. All of that said, my first sort of way to talk about how this book is around us culturally is Elizabeth Bennet is on the Mount Rushmore of. I'm not like those other girls, right?

[BA Parker]

I think so.

[Andrew Limbong]

Am I wrong here?

[BA Parker]

I think so. But it's like it's her and maybe like Jo March. I feel like in my teenage brain they were on the same level of like, I'm a fierce independent. I'm not like, I'm not silly like these other girls who are focused on marriage and money.

[Linda Holmes]

I think that's right. I think one thing that's interesting about this book is it was published at a time when marrying for position was still expected from probably a larger proportion of people than it's expected from now. And yet there is a yearning to marry for, if not love, then affection. The interesting thing about the sort of transmogrification of Lizzie Bennet into Bridget Jones is that Lizzie is not as insecure as Bridget is. Bridget kind of takes the Lizzie Bennet idea of being outspoken and sort of not fitting in. And it's seen through a lens of being very self doubting and sort of self loathing. Whereas Lizzie is very, for much of the book, she's very like, well, this is how I see it. This is what I'm going to do. This is what I'm not going to do, like it or lump it. And so in that way, I like her as a character for that reason.

[Andrew Limbong]

Yeah, it's interesting. So while we're on the topic of Bridget Jones, I dug up this interview with Helen Fielding, who's the author of Bridget Jones, that she did with NPR back in 1998. Shout out to Talk of the Nation.

[Announcer]

Yeah.

[Andrew Limbong]

Our colleague Lynn Neary was hosting this day. So the topic of this segment was approaching female singledom with humor. And here is what Fielding had to say about Pride and Prejudice.

[Helen Fielding]

I think, you know, Bridget has got quite a lot of links with Jane Austen. I based the plot on Pride and Prejudice. And in some ways, times are very similar to Jane Austen's day. And women's preoccupations are the same in some ways, but what is different is economic power now, and that a woman can make a very good life for herself on her own in every sense. And so there is a lot more to give up. And I think probably what's happening is lots of women are not prepared to compromise and not prepared to be with someone who is unkind to them or doesn't get on with them or whatever. And that's the reason, perhaps, why there are many more single women than there were, but they're still looking for an identity.

[Andrew Limbong]

I think it's an interesting reading, Right, because the implication here is that women, again, this is in 1998, that she's talking, right. Have more to give up because they have more agency. So that means, like, people in Lizbene have less to give up because they lacked agency. But I don't know. When I was reading this novel, I found that because they had no agency in other spaces of life, marriage was such a huge step and a huge decision to make. To me, it seemed like they had more to give up because they had no other outlets for decision making.

[Announcer]

Yeah.

[BA Parker]

Cause I think a part of, I would say, my maturity reading this now as an adult is I finally side with Mrs. Bennet. I'm like, wait, Mrs. Bennet is right. Like, does she lack discretion and is easily vexed?

[Andrew Limbong]

Yes.

[BA Parker]

But she understands the rules of the game that, like, this society has created in a way that the Bennet daughters don't fully grasp. She wants her kids to be okay because she can see, essentially, the writing on the wall about, like, what are the family's options? This was, like, the first time I was like, oh, Mrs. Bennet, I get it. Like, are you embarrassing sometimes? Yeah. But, like, you just want everyone to be okay.

[Andrew Limbong]

I was really frustrated with. I just watched the 2005 Keira Knightley virtual movie yesterday. I was really frustrated with the depiction of the mom with Mrs. Bennet in that film, because in the book, I read her as, like, listen, she just knows the game, whether, you know, whether you like it or not. She just knows how to play. It's irritating sometimes, but understands she is genuinely genuine. It comes out of a place of, like, worry and care for her. Kids, right? And in the movie she's portrayed as this like, ditzy, kind of dumb and like all over the place woman. And the dad, played by Donald Sutherland is played as this like, kind and gentle father figure. And I was like, that is not at all.

[Linda Holmes]

Your mother insists on you marrying Mr. Collins.

[BA Parker]

Yes.

[Helen Fielding]

I shall never see her again.

[Linda Holmes]

From this day onward, you must be a stranger to one of your parents. I will maintain you when your father is dead. Your mother will never see you again if you do not marry Mr. Collins. And I will never see you again.

[BA Parker]

If you do, Mr. Bennet.

[Linda Holmes]

Thank you, Papa.

[BA Parker]

That version is so whimsical and it's like, it's sweeping and it allows for the idea that this is like a romance book. So when you go back to reading it and reading like, it is about manners and it is about women being practical in their decisions. Because there are parts in the book where Elizabeth Bennet very practically is like, maybe I should marry Mr. Darcy. Like, he is kind and maybe I jumped the gun and made a bad decision. Whereas in like a very like, practical, I need to be married kind of way that it wouldn't be as romantic if said in the movies.

[Andrew Limbong]

Can we talk about where the swoony reputation comes from? Is it because of these adaptations or is it because of. Up until reading this today, my only experience with the book was through like cultural osmosis, right? And so you got male or whatever, you know, and they're talking about how like romantic it is. Is it this book's fault that we as a culture walk away with that interpretation? Or is it like the bajillion other iterations of this book, you know, things that have been inspired by this book, yada, yada, yada.

[Linda Holmes]

I mean, it is a romantic book. Like, it is a book with a love story, right? It is a book with a love story where, you know, the people meet, they don't like each other. I mean, this is sort of like.

[Andrew Limbong]

Your basic enemy, but Star wars is too, right?

[Linda Holmes]

This is your basic. This is your basic enemies to lovers. People sell a million cop of this to this day, right? Yeah, it is that. It's just that it's also a bunch of other stuff. And I think the adaptations have in some ways found it easiest, particularly when you're dealing with something shorter like a feature film as opposed to a six part miniseries, have sort of found it easier to streamline in favor of the romance.

[BA Parker]

I think that. But I also just think that we as a culture are guilty of reinterpreting things to benefit our perceptions of what romance is like. We think Romeo and Juliet is the greatest romance of all time, but they're like 13 year olds who kill themselves. We need to look at some nuance. With Jane Austen, I do feel like, me personally, I think some of her work has been flattened in the culture and just put into this box of Regency era, like Bridgerton, you are the.

[Linda Holmes]

Bane of my existence. And the object of all my desires.

[BA Parker]

All this kind of stuff that we needed to like, get that love dose real quick where it's like, we're all guilty of being Mrs. Bennet and being like, three of my daughters are engaged at the end of the book. Success like that is. Everyone's doing like that. She won, she won, she won. Like, that's how we consider success in the terms of these books. And how even when I was talking to you, Andrew, about the movie earlier, I was like, did you get the American version or the British version of the 2005 film? Cause in the British version, Darcy and Elizabeth don't kiss at the end. In the American version that we get, they kiss.

[Linda Holmes]

I didn't know that.

[BA Parker]

Yeah.

[Andrew Limbong]

So it's like the British version, the one that's on hbo Max, ends with Donald Southern smiling happily.

[BA Parker]

Love him, rip. But that's not what we're here for. So, like, even now, like, I'm like, they didn't kiss at the end. Does it count? Like it's.

[Announcer]

Well, yeah.

[Linda Holmes]

I mean, it's interesting. Cause you can easily stand in judgment, as we've talked about, stand in judgment of Mrs. Bennet and her attitude that a romantic attachment is the goal of everyone. Right. But on the other hand, any piece of traditional romantic fiction, when you talk about what the elements of a romance novel are and the romance community, I think certainly much of it embraces this as a romance novel. Not everybody. The romance novel has to end with the people getting together at the end. And I think that the key ingredient is the romance genre asks for the people to be happy, and Mrs. Bennet only asks for the people to be married. And I think that's maybe where the tension comes in between those two ways of thinking about this kind of story.

[BA Parker]

A word.

[Andrew Limbong]

Yeah. All right, we're going to take a quick break and then after that we're going to dig into the meat of the book, get into some textual business. We'll be right back.

[Announcer]

This message comes from Charles Schwab. When it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices like full service, wealth management and advice. When you need it. You can also invest on your own and trade on thinkorswim. Visit schwab.com to learn more.

[Andrew Limbong]

This message comes from Dell. It's time for Cyber Monday one of Dell technologies biggest sales of the year. Enjoy huge savings on gift worthy accessories and select PCs like the Dell 16 plus featuring Intel Core Ultra processors. Shop [e-mail] deals all right, we're back. Linda, you're in the romance world, right?

[Linda Holmes]

I am in the romance world.

[Andrew Limbong]

In the scene, right. Knowing what's up. You refer to this book as a classic, sort of like enemies to lovers trope. Is this like the Patient Zero of that?

[Linda Holmes]

I think the vast majority of tropes like this go back much farther than that. So I would not call it the Patient Zero. I would definitely call it one of the most frequently referenced, probably versions of that. Although as I said, the interesting thing about it is this book denies you some of the pleasures of a traditional romance novel and some of the beats that would be expected to be included. But I think what you see in this book is a really funny, really clever and witty and timeless story about a couple of people who are both super stubborn. There's a great moment where Lizzie basically says to him, well, I think you're a lot like me. I don't think either one of us says anything unless we think it's gonna impress everybody in the room. And I just thought that is clever and self knowing and yeah, it's emotional intelligence. Yeah, it's a really sharp and pleasurable book I think. And so it should not be read as work and it should not be read as, you know, necessity. It should be read as pleasure, which I think it is.

[Andrew Limbong]

Do you know what's interesting? I keep thinking about how relevant the questions in this book are today, particularly in like non western cultures where these discussions of like marriage is much more like it's still a business. Right? My folks got married partly, not 100% out of love. There was like immigration stuff to deal with.

[Linda Holmes]

Exactly.

[Andrew Limbong]

There was like status stuff to deal with. And it's like, oh, this stuff. Like maybe this is why I'm so forgiving to Mrs. Bennet because she reminds me of like my mom, you know what I mean? And it's like, okay, I completely understand where you're coming from because these are questions my aunts are still having today with their kids, you know, 100%.

[Linda Holmes]

It's very over broad as I think some people who are contemporary white Americans maybe is what I mean to say. It's wildly over broad to say you know, now people marry for love. They used to marry for position and money. Now they marry for love. First of all, plenty of people who don't marry for position in the traditional sense are not marrying for love.

[BA Parker]

Right?

[Announcer]

Yeah.

[Linda Holmes]

There are plenty of places where people are very invested still in lots of things besides your personal fondness for each other. So if anybody in this book kind of decides to set aside the need to marry for status, it's Darcy, probably, right? Because he's a very fancy person. Lizzie is a less fancy person. And there's an interesting moment in the book when Jane, her sister, asks Lizzie, like, when did you first know that you loved Mr. Darcy? And she says, I think it was when I saw his house. Like, that's a. And listen, there's a lot of. There's a lot of, you know, like, texture to that scene. She's saying a bunch of different things, I think. But it is a funny line in light of that kind of hyper romantic, don't marry a rich guy cause he's a rich guy. Marry for love. A guy who happens to be rich. Like, that's. There's an interpretation of the story that I think is unfair. If you see it in that way.

[BA Parker]

That'S like a really thoughtful interpretation that I've never really thought of. Like, is the marriage the win or is the love the win?

[Linda Holmes]

Well, I mean, Jane and Lizzie both end up marrying men that they loved and wanted to marry and who loved and wanted to marry them, who love and treasure them. And so they win in that regard.

[BA Parker]

They just happen to be in positions of power and stature and wealth.

[Linda Holmes]

Right. Whereas Charlotte, Lizzie's friend who marries Mr. Collins, has succeeded, according to Mrs. Bennet, because she is married. She is secured in her future. She has a place to live. She has a husband. She's not going to, as is mentioned at one point in this book, die an old maid. But it's clear in Austen's vision that she does not have the same kind of happy ending as Lizzy and Jane because they marry someone who's lovely to them.

[BA Parker]

Well, there is that moment in the book where the family comes together and is, like, completely embarrassing, but they're being their true selves, though. Like, the sister wants to play the piano, the. Like, the mom wants to gossip, the dad. I mean, like, they're. Everyone is.

[Linda Holmes]

No one wants to run off and have sex with a soldier. You know what?

[BA Parker]

If you like it, I love it. But, like. But it is who they are. And there's a moment where Darcy is brutally honest about his like, he's in love with Elizabeth Bennet but is also brutally honest about who her family is. And there was a part of me that couldn't get past that of like, he's like, it doesn't shift that much.

[Linda Holmes]

It's a very tough moment. And I think one of the things that I find fascinating about this is that they, you know, Austin doesn't give you a lot of super demonstrative business about him and his feelings beyond this kind of outpouring to her, which turns out to be really not well done at all because he comes in and he's like, it's a terrible idea because you're not suitable and I hate your mother and all this other stuff is, you know, you're completely unsuitable, but I love you anyway, so marry me because it's too painful for me if you don't. And she sort of has this wonderful, I think has this wonderful reaction that's basically like, thanks. And then she just sort of says, no, thank you. You have done this in a very horrible and insulting way. Plus, she is carrying a couple of misunderstandings about things that he has done. But she sort of reacts with a revulsion, I would say, doesn't want anything to do with him. And it takes other information coming to light about these other things that she was under the impression that he had done that perhaps he had not done to kind of repair that. But to me, yes, to me it would be very difficult to get over some of the things that he said about Christmases.

[BA Parker]

Would be difficult.

[Linda Holmes]

Yeah, it would be difficult. It would be difficult. Although is it Colin Firth? Maybe less difficult.

[BA Parker]

I'll push through. Up next, we'll have our final verdict, some recommendations and hear from another fan of Pride and Prejudice. Stick around.

[Announcer]

This message comes from Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. This message comes from Bombas. Treat your feet right this season with merino wool, cashmere, long staple cotton and more premium materials. Better basics. Visit bombas.com NPR and use code NPR for 20% off your first order.

[Andrew Limbong]

All right, we're back. I think I know the answer to this, but the final question is why do we think this book is worth reading today?

[Linda Holmes]

I would say, one, for its influence on other elements of culture, which is always worth, worth understanding, and two, for its love story which despite how unusual it is in some of the ways that we've talked about, is still really compelling to me. And three, because it is so funny and so much fun and mean in a.

[Andrew Limbong]

Funny and mean at times.

[Linda Holmes]

Very mean at times. It is mean. She is cutting.

[Andrew Limbong]

Yeah.

[BA Parker]

I mean, Austen's feelings are strong, I think. I think it's like this becomes this kind of shorthand when we are trying to navigate some of these stories about relationships, like, oh, this is clearly like an Elizabeth Bennet character. And I think the way that we started with Andrew being, like. He read it to understand, like, where more contemporary works are, like, getting not their ideas from, but, like, it's like.

[Andrew Limbong]

Listening to the Beatles is what I was thinking of it. You know, it's like, you gotta. Gotta.

[BA Parker]

You gotta listen to the Beatles before you can.

[Andrew Limbong]

You gotta understand contemporary music before you.

[BA Parker]

Can get to take McRae. Like. I don't know. Yeah, sure. All right.

[Linda Holmes]

Well, I was gonna say it's like reading the Bible in some ways that even if you don't, even if it's not your religion, it's very influential and you're gonna hear about it a lot. So for some people, it turns out to be worth knowing what it says, even if they don't have a religious attachment to it. So even if you do not have a spiritual attachment to Jane Austen or to romance, perhaps it's worth knowing what's going on in there.

[Andrew Limbong]

Yeah. All right, I think it's time for. If you like this, read that. Parker, do you want to go first?

[BA Parker]

Sure. Okay. So I think it was in 2019. I have a friend from Pakistan who was like, you've got to read this book called Unmarriageable. And so I read it. I was like, oh, it's basically. It's Pride and Prejudice set in contemporary Pakistan. And does it retread a lot of the plot of Pride and Prejudice? Yes, but it leans itself to the cultural mores of today within Pakistan and how it relates to that Austin world. And I just think it's a really lovely, funny, like, quick read, to be honest. Unmarriageable by Sonia Kamal.

[Andrew Limbong]

I'd said before that by the time I was getting serious about literature, I was really thinking a lot about American stuff. And the book I was thinking a lot about was William Faulkner's Absalom, Absalom, in the sense of the weight of the family is on your shoulders, fairly or unfairly. You can complain and whine and moan about the game sucks and the deck is loaded against you, but the weight of the family and the family honor is rested on your decisions. And what you do speaks to your family name and that's a heavy burden to carry.

[Linda Holmes]

Nice poll. I like it. Andrew. Yeah, I would say if you come to this conversation as a romance reader, you already know this book probably. But if you come to this conversation as not a romance reader, then maybe you don't. I would mention Red, White and Royal Blue, which is a romance by Casey McQuiston, which is about a prince who's a member of the British royal family and the son of the U.S. president. And they meet and they hate each other and they are enemies, they can't stand each other. And then they start like emailing and texting and they fall in love. And it is a pretty hot book. If you miss there being sex in Pride and Prejudice, this is a hot book. But it's also, it has a lot of stuff in it about the burdens of family and the sort of the public implications of your relationship. And some of that is related to the fact that they're both guys, but some of it is really just the what's expected of them because they're both incredibly high profile. It's just a, it's also just a super charming book. Casey McQuiston is one of the current like super major writers in that genre, so their work is always worth paying attention to.

[Andrew Limbong]

All right, well, cool. Well, Linda, thank you so much. This is a lot of fun. I really appreciate it.

[Linda Holmes]

Oh, thank you. I'm glad that you guys motivated me to reread this book because I definitely had not revisited it in a bit.

[Andrew Limbong]

And that's the show. This episode was produced by Cher Vincent and edited by Megan Sullivan.

[BA Parker]

Engineering support by Robert Rodriguez and our executive producer is Yolanda Sanguini.

[Andrew Limbong]

Thank you for listening to books we've loved from npr. We'll see you next time.

[Announcer]

This message comes from the Council for Interior Design Qualification. Interior designer and CIDQ President Siyavash Madani discusses why certified professionals know that good design is more than just how something looks.

[Siyavash Madani]

Being NCIDQ certified means you've qualified to protect the health, safety and welfare of the public in the spaces that you design. Good design is never just about aesthetics. It's about intention, safety and impact. So an NCIDQ certified interior designer must complete a minimum of six years of specialized education and work experience and pass the three part NCIDQ exam. All three exams emphasize and focus on health, safety and welfare of the occupants. Being NCIDQ certified means that you've proven your knowledge and skills through rigorous exams and are recognized as a qualified interior design professional.

[Announcer]

Learn [e-mail] NPR.