Aisha Harris (3:09)

Joining me today is fellow co host Linda Holmes. Hello, Linda.

Linda Holmes (3:12)

Hello, Aisha.

Aisha Harris (3:14)

Also with us is one of the hosts of NPR's Code Switch podcast, Gene Demby. Hey, Gene. Welcome back.

Gene Demby (3:19)

What's good, Aisha? Hey, Linda.

Linda Holmes (3:21)

Hey.

Aisha Harris (3:21)

Yeah, it's great to have you both here. I feel like this is going to be a very fun conversation. So Ruthman stars Channing Tatum as Jeffrey Manchester, a military vet who's fallen on hard times and is struggling to support his family. He turns to robbing fast food joints, many of them McDonald's, by drilling and entering through the rooftops. Eventually, he gets caught and sent to prison with a 45 year sentence. But he's able to escape and hides out in a Toys R Us for several months undetected. He sneaks out of the store sometimes and winds up striking a relationship on the outside with an unsuspecting single who also happens to be a Toys R Us employee, Sheasley, and she's played by Kirsten Dunst. Obviously, he can only survive on mms and keep up the ruse for so long before the roof comes crashing down on him. Consequences. Roofman is in theaters now. Linda this is actually one of the first movies we've ever had a chance to sit next to each other and enjoy together. That's true. So how are we feeling about this one?

Linda Holmes (4:25)

I liked this movie. I think it's pretty light in the sense that it runs largely on the charisma of Channing Tatum and Kirsten Dunst. Also, I would say Peter Dinklage, who plays one of the other Toys R Us employees, who I think is very funny in this movie, I do think the part of it that's a little chewy and maybe we can talk about this a little bit more later, is thinking about this guy, one of the things about him is that he kind of gets the benefit of being referred to as like a very polite and gentlemanly robber. And there's this idea that they build a lot of sympathy for him over the course of this story. And I do think it's interesting to think, like, who gets the benefit of that kind of criminal story, like the charming criminal story. Obviously it's one thing if you're Channing Tatum and it's probably another thing if you're not. So I think that it's intentional the way the movie kind of asks you to interrogate your feelings about that right up until the very last screens where they're going through, like, what eventually happens to him after the run of the film.

Aisha Harris (5:28)

Yes, yes. Like America running on Duncan. This movie absolutely runs on Channing Tatum. That is a very, very intentional casting point. And I agree with you, Linda, very much so. Gene, how do we feel about Reefman?

Gene Demby (5:43)

I liked it. I mean, you know, it's like a little bit of a trifle. There's not a lot of weight to the movie. But like you both said, like Kirsten Dunst, Channing Tatum, like, if it runs on their firepower, like the sort of chemistry and they're just screen present, that's a lot of firepower to pull from. You know, the movie really, really works when they're on screen together. I did think the movie did a really good job of. This character is like, really good at improvising his way out of problems, but not very good at like, bro, what is your endgame here? Like, this is not a sustainable course of action. And the movie does a really good job of, like, putting him in situations where he makes nakedly to us non criminalism. I'm assuming we're non criminals.

Aisha Harris (6:22)

Right.

Gene Demby (6:22)

Why are you taking this photo right now? Like, you know what I mean?

Linda Holmes (6:24)

Just like, sometimes literally, nakedly, by the way.

Gene Demby (6:27)

Sometimes literally nake, by the way. We should also get back to, like, the Channing Tatums, like, the physicality of him. Like, there's something about him that is very like Patrick Swayze. Like, you know what I mean?

Aisha Harris (6:36)

No, I think that's right. Yes, absolutely.

Gene Demby (6:38)

There's a scene in which he's escaping from prison in which he is trying to sneak out behind this truck. And he moves around this truck in a way that's like, bro, you don't need a pirouette like that. He moves around the back of the truck in a way that's so graceful.

Aisha Harris (6:49)

It's Magic Mike Jean.

Gene Demby (6:52)

I was like, oh, that was a very sort of like, cat like, dancer like thing. He's just very fun to watch move. But yeah, the movie itself is like, eh. It's like, it's perfectly fun. It's perfectly fun.

Aisha Harris (7:03)

Yeah. Did y' all in school. Did you ever have to read that book from the Mixed up files of Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler?

Gene Demby (7:10)

Frankweiler, yeah.

Aisha Harris (7:11)

Do you remember that? Okay, so I have not read that book since I was a child, and I don't really remember that much of it. But the plot of that is like, these two kids run away from home and. And then they, like, hide out in the Metropolitan Museum of Art. You're a kid, you're reading this book and it's, like, fun to see how they are able to, like, keep their presence there and have no one suspect for a very long time. And that is what I enjoyed the most about this movie was, like, sometimes this felt like Mission Impossible or, like, Ocean's Eleven, where you're like, how is he going to figure out a way to stay undetected in this Choice R Us? He has, like, baby monitor set up around the building so he can see when people are coming and going. He's basically camped out in the middle of this giant structure. He's squatting, basically. And it's really fun to see how he does that. And this movie, it kind of gives you everything. If you're a Channing Tatum fan, you have a moment where he's dancing in heely sneakers and tight white shorts. Tight white shorts. Tight white shorts and a pink inflatable tube, like. And at one point, he's even, as Linda's hinted, he's completely nude. Naked. So it gives you the things that you want. It also gives you a reference to Tickle Me Elmo. And, like, it's just very fun. But then when it comes to the end and actually, like, sort of the last act and it asks you to question these things, it felt like it was trying to have its cake and eat it, too. And we should say that, like, Geoffrey Manchester, he's still alive, and he was, like, consulted to some extent in the process of making this movie. And so you have to also wonder how hard were they willing to go when you have the actual subject sort of, like, complicit in many ways in telling their own story. That's where I kind of struggle and where the trifle of it all comes in, where I'm just like, I don't know, man. The way it ended is, like, really, he hurt a lot of people. Well, that's the thing.

Linda Holmes (9:05)

I think there's a very, like, the Gentleman Robber thing here. And in the trailer, you even see the stuff where, like, before he puts people in the cooler, he gives one of them his coat, which I think is a real story that supposedly he did. But nevertheless, this is somebody who, over and over and over again, surprised people, held them at gunpoint, locked them up.

Aisha Harris (9:26)

Traumatizing.

Linda Holmes (9:26)

That's very traumatizing. That's exactly what I was gonna say, no matter how much they may say on the news later. Like, he was actually very polite.

Gene Demby (9:33)

He was a nice guy.

Aisha Harris (9:34)

Yeah.

Linda Holmes (9:35)

That is something that he chose to do over and over and over and over and over again. And as he is living at the Toys R Us, what he's doing sort of evol. Because at the beginning, he's just trying to survive and not get caught. He is finding a place to stay. He has nothing to eat, so he's stealing M and Ms. But as it evolves and after he meets Kirsten Dunst, you move into a period where he is stealing large numbers of video game discs and then just going and selling them for cash to buy things for her or to do things for her to impress her. Now you're getting into a different area. Now you're stealing much the way most people steal, which is to get something that and that they don't have the money for. And so to me, you know, this was directed by Derek Cinfrance, who made Blue Valentine. If you've seen Blue Valentine, this is not what I would expect from the director of Blue Valentine, but I do think he has an appreciation of kind of sadness at the heart of people. And so I do think you're supposed to understand the sadness at the heart of this guy and ultimately the sadness of this story. For the Kirsten Dunst character, I think it's worth thinking about, if he were not a very handsome, white, tall dude, would he get the benefit of this narrative about being a gentleman? You're supposed to interrogate this story maybe a little bit more than they're making explicit enough, I guess.

Gene Demby (11:05)

Right.

Aisha Harris (11:05)

I should also say, like, it's nice to see Lakeith Stanfield, even though I don't see him in nearly enough starring roles. Whenever he pops up in a sidekick role, he plays Channing Tatum characters like one of his good friends, and he kind of inadvertently gives him the idea to start doing all of these things and robbing places, but he doesn't tell him to. He's just like, you're the smartest dumb person I know. Like, why aren't you making more money? So much of this story hinges on this very outdated and maybe perhaps overdone idea of the American dream. Right. It's like, it's not like Channing Tatum and his family are starving and, like, living on the streets. And it's just that he feels bad that he can't give his young daughter the birthday party that she wants and the gifts that she wants. And it's like, look, I'm not a parent, Gene. You are. But, like, of course you want to give your kid everything, but also, would.

Linda Holmes (11:56)

You hold up a McDonald's for it?

Gene Demby (11:58)

Yeah, exactly.

Aisha Harris (11:59)

And multiple McDonald's. And even if he was not actually physically harming these People. And I don't think it's a spoiler to say, like, in the last act, it does take a turn where he goes further than he usually does. But even if that didn't happen, he was only sort of mentally traumatizing. He's mentally traumatizing people. Kirsten Dunst's character and her young daughters, you know, so it's like, in order for this movie to have more bite, I think it really needed to sit with the mental toll that it takes. And even on his daughter, who he doesn't get a chance to actually see, like, his actual daughter. I just wish it kind of lingered on those things more. And this movie just isn't really willing to go there. And that's, you know, a shame.

Gene Demby (12:39)

I think there's also a sort of a throwaway mention earlier in the movie about the fact that, you know, he was in the military and he had, like. He had a specific set of skills, which is the key. Stanfield says, like, the reason you were sent to all these, like, places is not because you're necessarily the best marksman. It's because you, like, notice things, because you're, like. Because you have. You're, like, a very observant person. I thought it was gonna make a little bit more out of the fact that, like, he had a bunch of skills that are not really applicable to civilian life.

Sponsor Announcer (13:06)

Right.

Gene Demby (13:07)

What does somebody like that who probably can't transition into, like, any sort of other workplaces do to get by? And I thought there was something in there that was worth sort of pulling out a little bit more. Like, what do you do with other people who are sort of, like, you've trained up in this way, and now that they've outlived their usefulness in that way, what happens to them next after that?

Linda Holmes (13:24)

With a movie like this, it's always less interesting to me to sit with the idea of, like, do you judge this person or do you not judge this person? Right. Especially a real human being from a real story. Like, I always think it's more interesting to think about, where does this guy's story fit into, like Ayesha said, ideas about the American dream, ideas about criminals, ideas about Jesse James and Bonnie and Clyde, or there's a long history of kind of glamorous criminals, gentlemen criminals, or, you know, criminals who steal from the right people. Because to me, it's a lot easier to be sort of taken aback by the fact that he's herding people into a cooler at gunpoint than it is to be affronted by him. Stealing from McDonald's. That's not really the issue to me. I do wish that the Kirsten Dunst character had had a little bit more to do. I think they're not sure what to do with her other than make sure you understand that he genuinely cares about her and she genuinely cares about him and that, you know, it's one of those things where, like, in a different world, maybe, but you don't follow her for a tremendously long time after kind of the end of this segment of his life. I wish she had had a little more to do because I do think she's terrific. But at the same time, I mean, I wanna be clear. I think this movie's really entertaining. I would watch Channing Tatum in many caper type movies. I love this for him, you know.

Aisha Harris (14:54)

Yeah, him and Kirsten have really great chemistry. And even the whole time and I'm just like, run, girl, run. Get out of there.

Sponsor Announcer (15:03)

Yeah.

Linda Holmes (15:04)

But, you know, she's not going to like. There is a great scene where he's at a Red Lobster with a bunch of women and.

Gene Demby (15:12)

Oh, yeah, that's a dope scene.

Linda Holmes (15:14)

For once. You have a scene where they actually reflect what would happen if you brought a guy who looked like Channing Tatum to a lunch with a bunch of normal people where they would all be like, what?

Narrator/Announcer (15:27)

You know?

Linda Holmes (15:28)

And I appreciated that touch to this film.

Gene Demby (15:31)

He seems slimmer here than he has looked in other movies. He's obviously chanting Tatum. He looks like a dancer.

Aisha Harris (15:36)

Well, he's supposed to be surviving on basically only M&Ms.

Linda Holmes (15:38)

Candy.

Gene Demby (15:39)

Yeah, he's surviving. This is a very funny scene in which he has to go to the dentist because he's been surviving on Eminem's for months. Like, ooh, you have 14 cavities. That's a lot of cavities for an adult.

Linda Holmes (15:49)

I think it's interesting to think about him when you say that he looks slightly slimmer here. I think it's interesting to me anytime you see a male movie star whose body is as much. Has as much of a role in his stardom as many actresses have over the course of Hollywood history. And it's not that there have never been, you know, and a lot of times with other hot men and with other hot dancers.

Aisha Harris (16:13)

Right.

Linda Holmes (16:14)

But there is something about, I think, the way that he deploys his body that is interesting to me as, like, a performance of gender, as a performance of masculinity that is not. And I think Aisha and I've talked before about the Salma Hayek pinot in Magic Mike's Last Dance. The way that over the course of his career he's capitalized on that, I think is super interesting.

Gene Demby (16:41)

Absolutely. I mean, the last time I was on pchh, we were talking about the Smashing Machine. It's like a very different sort of use of physicality by Dwayne Johnson. I'm sorry, not the Rock. It's interesting to see the choices he's made about his physicality versus Dave Bautista or all these people whose physicality is a central part of why they get cast in movies. And Channing Tatum's just the roles are kind of all over the place. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's just. I'll try anything, you know, And I really dig him in this kind of thing.

Linda Holmes (17:07)

I think he's legitimately an interesting dude.

Aisha Harris (17:10)

I think that kind of speaks to the uniqueness of Tatum in this current landscape where someone like the Rock, his physicality is based, like, on this very sort of hyper masculine version of strength, whereas Channing Tatum's is very much more balletic, more light. Like, the strength is there not necessarily to, you know, crash through doors and pick up giant missiles with his bare hands, but it's sometimes it's for lifting up a woman or, you know, escaping from prison, but that's what it's for.

Linda Holmes (17:44)

And the other thing that I think they use just a touch of here, but not a ton. Tatum is very, very, very good at a tiny bit of hot doofus. My favorite deployment of it is in the Lost City with Sandra Bullock, which I think is a terrific underappreciated rom com. And there's a little bit of hot doofus to this guy.

Gene Demby (18:02)

Like, not a little bit.

Linda Holmes (18:04)

He's very crafty, but he's also a hot doofus. That's the other element of the formula.

Gene Demby (18:09)

Here, I would say. Not a little bit of hot doofus. Like, a lot of hot doofus. Some of the stuff he does, like the way he sort of, like, just lavishes Kirsten Dunst's family with, like, gifts or whatever. It's like, bro, you are so ostentatious. Like, you're supposed to be laying low.

Linda Holmes (18:22)

Yeah. Why are you a try hard?

Gene Demby (18:23)

He's doing all this stuff to draw attention to himself. Well, he's like, oh, I really want them to like me. He's like, the thing you're supposed to be doing right now is, like, for.

Aisha Harris (18:30)

People to forget you, especially when you look like him. When you look like him, like, how do you.

Linda Holmes (18:34)

Right. Why are you being the hot guy she brought to lunch. Like, that's not a good idea a thousand percent.

Gene Demby (18:39)

His desire to be liked was like, obviously going to be his Achilles heel. Like, it was obviously gonna be the thing that was gonna get him nabbed at some point. It was like, I understand it's Kirsten Dunst, right? But like, you know, she's like super charming, but what are you doing?

Linda Holmes (18:53)

And that's a cousin of hot dudes.

Gene Demby (18:55)

Yeah, absolutely.

Aisha Harris (18:57)

Again, this story seems too good to be true. But also I'm like, I guess I can see that happening. We want to know what you think about Rufman. Do you like Channing Tatum as hot doofus as much as we do? Because it's a fun time at the movies. Find us on Facebook@facebook.com PCHH and on Letterboxdetterbox. NPRpopculture. We'll have a link to that in our episode description. That brings us to the end of our show. Gene Demby, Linda Holmes, thanks so much for being here. As always. This is a blast.

Linda Holmes (19:28)

Absolutely. Good to see ya.

Gene Demby (19:29)

I appreciate y' all so much.

Aisha Harris (19:31)

Yeah. And just a reminder that signing up for Pop Culture Happy Hour plus is a great way to support our show and public radio. And you get to listen to all of our episodes sponsor free. Please go find out more at plus.npr.org happy hour or visit the link in our show notes. This episode was produced by Liz Metzger, Janae Morris and Mike Katsif and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy.

Gene Demby (19:52)

Hello.

Aisha Harris (19:53)

Come in. Provides our theme music. Thanks for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. I'm Aisha Harris and we'll see you all next time.

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