Pop Culture Happy Hour: "Sabrina Carpenter and the Embarrassing Truth of Dating Men"

Original Air Date: January 8, 2026
Context: Crossover episode featuring an installment of NPR’s It’s Been a Minute with Brittany Luse and NPR Music editor Hazel Sills

Episode Overview

In this special crossover episode, Pop Culture Happy Hour dives into the "embarrassing truth" of modern heterosexual dating through the lens of pop music. Host Brittany Luse teams up with NPR Music editor Hazel Sills to unpack the rise of "heteropessimism"—a cultural and lyrical phenomenon where young women pop stars candidly express fatigue, disappointment, and humor about dating men. The discussion explores generational shifts, how these themes manifest in pop hits from Sabrina Carpenter, Olivia Rodrigo, and Olivia Dean, and what this trend reveals about the broader landscape of love and gender roles in 2025.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Current Pop Moment: A Wave of Female Frustration

• Heteropessimism Defined:

  • Hazel Sills introduces the term “heteropessimism” — expressing embarrassment or exhaustion about being straight, especially via women's complaints about men in relationships ([01:29]).
  • Originally coined by Asa Saracen in 2019, it captures a cultural fatigue surrounding traditional heterosexual dynamics.

• Pop Music as a Reflection:

  • 2025’s most popular songs express a new kind of romantic pessimism, moving beyond the “men are trash” anthems of the late ‘90s/early '00s (Destiny’s Child, TLC, Whitney Houston) to a more nuanced critique focused on relationship inequities ([04:39]).
  • Example cited: Sabrina Carpenter’s “Man Child” and Olivia Dean’s “Man I Need” illustrate different but related complaints about men’s shortcomings in relationships ([03:22]).

Hazel Sills [01:29]:
"Heteropessimism is basically the phenomenon of, like, expressing embarrassment or fatigue about being a heterosexual."

2. Comparing Past and Present: From “No Scrubs” to “Man Child”

• Then vs. Now:
  • Earlier hits like TLC’s “No Scrubs” and Destiny’s Child’s “Say My Name” featured confrontational “kiss-off” energy focused on specific behaviors (cheating, being “broke”).
  • Today’s songs lean into emotional labor, setting boundaries, and demanding more equal partnerships ([05:14]).

Hazel Sills [05:14]:
"There was kind of that, like, girl power streak... But I do think that this moment is different to me because... I hear women who are writing very specifically about, like, inequality in their relationships."

• Notable Example:
  • Summer Walker’s “No” shifts from rejecting specific flaws to demanding boundaries and refusing to perform outdated gender roles ([05:25]).

3. The Influence of Music & Online Discourse

• Social Media Feedback Loop:
  • Many contemporary pop stars, like Sabrina Carpenter, write songs that double as “mini think pieces,” often mirroring conversations happening in online spaces and giving fans anthems for TikTok and social sharing ([11:14]).

Hazel Sills [11:15]:
"...there is, you know, a benefit to kind of, like, cashing in on this trend. It feels like a response to what women are talking about and what they care about right now."

4. Different Shades of Heteropessimism: Carpenter, Rodrigo, Dean

• Sabrina Carpenter & Olivia Rodrigo:
  • Both artists embody a playful, sometimes biting approach—recounting frustration with men’s immaturity or lack of self-sufficiency (“boys can kick rocks”) ([12:27]).

Hazel Sills [12:27]:
"...Sabrina Carpenter is especially really good at this... always kind of skewering men in her music and telling them how stupid they are, how they're not living up to her expectations."

• Olivia Dean:
  • Offers a more sincere, earnest appeal for men to open up emotionally, echoing the same fundamental desire but in a gentler style ([13:32]).
  • The episode discusses the contrast between the two Olivias (Olivia Rodrigo’s pop-punk angst vs. Olivia Dean’s upbeat sincerity).

5. What Do Women Want? Hope Amid Exasperation

• The conversation isn’t all doom and gloom. Many of these songs, while critical, ultimately express a hope for romantic connection and a plea for improvement (“here is what I need”) ([14:40]).

  • Even as Sabrina Carpenter jokes about "liking her men incompetent," there’s nuance about attraction and vulnerability in imperfection ([14:05]).

• Trend Continuation:

  • Hazel Sills doesn’t see heteropessimism leaving the charts anytime soon, predicting that as long as relationship inequities persist, the trend (and the music) will endure and possibly soften in tone ([15:06]).

Hazel Sills [15:06]:
"I don't see it letting up... Whenever men get better, this trend will end."

6. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Comparing Musical Generations:

  Brittany Luse [05:05]:
  "We got like, oh, he wasn't man enough."

• Meta-Observation on Pop Trends:

  Hazel Sills [11:15]:
  "...writing from their own experiences and they're having fun with it. But... it feels like a response to what women are talking about and what they care about right now."

• On Hope in Frustration:

  Hazel Sills [15:06]:
  "It's not like I want to be single forever. It's like I really want to make this work. Like, I want love, I want a relationship, but I have to do it in this weird world with these options."

• On the Future of Heteropessimism:

  Hazel Sills [15:06]:
  "As long as that's the reality, I think that this music is going to be relevant."

Notable Timestamps

• [01:29]: Hazel Sills defines “heteropessimism”
• [05:05-05:25]: Comparing late ‘90s/early ‘00s R&B “kiss-off” anthems with today’s nuanced songs
• [11:15]: Discussion of social media and pop song synergy
• [12:27]: Differentiating the approaches of Carpenter, Rodrigo, and Dean
• [14:05]: Nuances in pop lyrics: even complaints can reveal desires
• [15:06]: Predictions for the future of this trend

Conclusion

This episode serves as an essential time capsule of 2025’s gender discourse as filtered through pop music. It explores how today’s chart-topping young women have advanced the conversation beyond simple “girl power” anthems to deeper critiques and hopes for equality in love. The dynamic discussion between Brittany Luse and Hazel Sills is peppered with humor, pop culture history, and genuine insight, offering a thoughtful snapshot of where romance—and pop music—stand today.