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- [00:00]
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- [00:21]
Ayesha Harris
Now. If you're anything like me, you've probably still got Sabrina Carpenter's breakout album Short and Sweet in steady rotation. Just over a year later, she's already back with a new collection of cheeky earworms called Man's Best Friend.
- [00:36]
Stephen Thompson
Carpenter explores many of the same lyrical themes as she has in the past, winking innuendo and wry commentary on being a woman in the dating scene. But she kicks it up several notches while playing around with more retro heavy sounds. I'm Stephen Thompson.
- [00:52]
Ayesha Harris
And I'm Ayesha Harris. And today we're talking about Sabrina Carpenter's latest album, Man's Best Friend on Pop culture Happy hour from npr.
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- [02:28]
Ayesha Harris
For me, sometimes I just need to.
- [02:32]
Ann Powers
Go and talk to somebody that is not gonna judge me right is gonna be there and they're gonna listen to me. And I can't start just saying, look, I'm not feeling right today and it feels natural. I love it.
- [02:45]
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- [02:52]
Ayesha Harris
Joining us today is NPR music critic and Correspondent Ann Powers. Hey, Anne.
- [02:57]
Ann Powers
Hey, friends. So fun to be with you to talk about the dirtiest gal in show business.
- [03:03]
Ayesha Harris
Yes, it's going to be very, very fun to chat about this album with you both. So Sabrina Carpenter's been very busy since 2024. Her global short and sweet tour is still going strong. It's scheduled to conclude later this fall. She put out a holiday special, picked up a couple of Grammys, and released a duet of Please, Please, Please with Dolly Parton and. And somehow during all of that, she found time to record her new album, Man's Best Friend. The lead single, man Child, peaked at number one on the Billboard charts in June.
- [03:33]
Sabrina Carpenter (song clips)
Why so sexy and so dumb and how Survivor so long if I'm not there, it won't get done I choose to blame your mom.
- [03:48]
Ayesha Harris
This is her seventh studio album and she's re teamed with her frequent collaborators Amy Allen and Jack Antonoff. Stephen, I'm gonna start with you. How much did this album make you blush?
- [04:00]
Stephen Thompson
A little bit. You know, the second single from the album is called Tears and the vibe that I scribbled down in my notes was horny Dua Lipa. It is a very kind of retro, kind of disco based, very, very horny song and hilariously like looking kind of on Spotify. There are three songs from this album that do not have expl explicit tags. Tears is one of them. And it is the song that by far made me blush the most.
- [04:25]
Ann Powers
It should make you blush because, you know, this song is built around a metaphor that goes all the way to the beginning of 20th century popular music. It reminds me of Bessie Smith, but Sabrina has a different way of saying it. Maybe we should hear it. You blushed. I cringed a little bit. I have to say, I am a huge Sabrina supporter and I actually love songs about women's sexuality. But that line, I don't know.
- [05:07]
Stephen Thompson
But on balance, I think this record feels very much like a continuation of short and sweet. I was an extremely strong proponent of the song Man Child, which for me really livened up the kind of song of the summer conversation. Even the excerpt that we played kind of at the top, there were like five jokes in 10 or 15 seconds, right. And I appreciate the fact that she continues to make songs that are not only extremely hooky, extremely catchy, you know, kind of vibrant and shimmery and playful, but they're also funny. And I think, you know, her background as a comic actor really has translated well to her as a major pop star. And one thing that I do appreciate, kind of thematically about this record compared to Short and Sweet. One of the big hits from Short and Sweet was called Tape, and it was really directing vitriol at the woman who was dating her ex. And there has been, I think, with this record, a huge pivot off of that way of approaching bad love. Right. Like, these songs are all directed at men. You can kind of make a taxonomy of Sabrina Carpenter, man's best friend songs of, like, men, dumb men, colon, hot men, colon, sia men, sex, please. In that way, it kind of functions almost as a concept album. And it's directing the vitriol exactly where the vitriol belongs. Sometimes inward, but mostly at dudes.
- [06:38]
Ayesha Harris
Yes. Yeah.
- [06:38]
Ann Powers
I'm glad you used the phrase concept album, Stephen, because I definitely think this is a concept album. And maybe this gives us a chance to briefly talk about the COVID controversy. So long before this record came out, Sabrina Carpenter was teasing it with several different versions of her cover. The first album cover that came out is the one that I see on my streaming service right now. She is on all fours on the floor in a little black dress, and a man whose face you can't see is holding her hair.
- [07:08]
Ayesha Harris
Now, some people, maybe a man, we don't know. Apparently there are some rumors that it could be also Sabrina Carpenter, but, like, that's going down the deep well of fandom.
- [07:17]
Ann Powers
Here's why I'm almost sure it's a man. Because just to finish the story for those who don't know, she subsequently released several other covers because this cover did cause a controversy because she was in a subservient quote unquote position. But for me, that image is so much like a Robert Palmer covered album from the 70s. I'm talking about the guy who did Addictive to Love with the All Model Band in the background. It's this loosh 70s, you know, sexy, but in a degraded way, reference point that she's getting at. She's being historical here. And just like the sound of this record is reaching back into the past. And in a sense, the imagery around it is also, to me, it's very 70s. People compare Casparia Carpenter to Dolly Parton. I think she's like Erika Jeong, the author of Fear Flying. That's who I think she's the most. Like, this album, to me, is so much like kind of sexy feminism of the early 70s.
- [08:16]
Ayesha Harris
Yeah, I love that you brought that up. Because that whole controversy. And who knows? For all we know, the way artists roll out now, they always have like 18 different covers already unlocked. It's like yeah, we have to sell more copies. So who knows if that wasn't, like, an intentional pivot or she was already planning to have those album covers out. But it seems so obvious to me that she is being cheeky and making a point about it. Even the title of this album is Man's Best Friend, right?
- [08:42]
Ann Powers
Exactly.
- [08:42]
Ayesha Harris
And yet, as Steven has noted, this entire album is like, basically all the ways men disappoint us and occasionally make us hot, but also disappoint us sometimes simultaneously, I think.
- [08:53]
Ann Powers
Simultaneously is the point, honestly.
- [08:56]
Ayesha Harris
Yeah, that whole controversy felt just not really important, but also proved a point in a way that we still don't really know how to deal with, you know, women, and especially younger women who are asserting their sexuality in a certain way and doing so in a political way, very blatantly political way. I found this album to be very fascinating because I've listened to it now. So we're recording this Friday afternoon. We've had a few hours to sit with it. I got to listen to it a few times, and it didn't quite hook me as quickly as Short and Sweet did. All of those songs on Short and Sweet felt like immediately, oh, I'm excited for this. And this one. It took me until the third round where I was like, okay, I'm feeling this. I do have to kind of throw this idea out here. And I know, Anne, this is something you wanted to talk about, which is this idea of her really leaning into, like, the comedic side of her. There were multiple songs here that I kept thinking, this feels like an SNL digital short. This feels Very Lonely Island. Like, it went from short and sweet. Feeling as though, oh, yeah, she's being cheeky. But, like, I think part of it is the songs. Even though some of them did feel like throwbacks of a certain era, they still felt modern and contemporary, whereas here we're getting a little bit more retro. Cheers. We've already played that kind of Sounds like a 70s disco sound preset. Like, you know, on a keyboard. It's not like it's doing anything particularly fancy with the music. Like, it's very basic disco. And this also comes out of her being such a visual story to. She's telling stories. And these are often stories that feel as though if this was 2005, 2006, Maya Rudolph, Kristen Wiig would be performing these songs. And specifically, this came up for me with when did you'd get Hot? Which is a great concept, but I want to play a little bit of this and tell me you cannot see some snl. People performing this and doing this entire bit.
- [10:52]
Sabrina Carpenter (song clips)
Now I'm at the prospect convention. My friends walk in your friend's direction set. Sabrina, don't you know Devin? And I was like, huh, when did you get hot? All of a sudden, I cook you up and down all day.
- [11:08]
Ayesha Harris
Like, I don't know. I can see Sabrina being the guest host. And then, like, you've got Andy Samberg playing Devin.
- [11:16]
Ann Powers
You know what it's like. Sabrina Carpenter would be the female member of the lonely island. That is really a perfect role. I totally agree. I mean, as you were saying, Stephen, and I think our colleague Hazel Sills also wrote about this. She is essentially a comic artist at this point. I mean, maybe it's too early to talk about this, but does the comic role, like, limit her? Do you feel like this is, like, getting a little narrow with this record?
- [11:43]
Stephen Thompson
I don't think so. And one thing that I was reminded of several times listening to this record was kind of classic country music, you know, kind of song lyrics that are doing big wordplay. Like, Anne, you and I have listened to a lot of, you know, vintage country music over the years. You live in Nashville. I was reminded of a lot of classic country songs where, like, women would sing these takedowns of men that were so catchy and so quotable.
- [12:09]
Ann Powers
Stephen, I think you're absolutely right that she connects with classic country music. Loretta Lynn, you know, songs like you ain't woman enough to take my man. Sabrina is often compared to Dolly Parton, and I definitely hear that. But I think it's really about her connection to contemporary country music. And, y', all, this is why I was so happy you asked me to be on this episode, because I get to test out my new theory, my new ruling theory of what's happening in pop music. Are you ready for it?
- [12:36]
Ayesha Harris
Yes.
- [12:36]
Ann Powers
It's called critique from within, and it's really happening in country music right now. There is a whole class of young woman artists in country music. Megan Maroney, Ella Langley, Priscilla Block, Jessie Murphy, who write songs that are so much like the songs on this record. You hear these kinds of themes that are on this record. Like, my man is so obsessed with self improvement, he's ignoring me, or my man turns me on by doing the chores or whatever. Like, those themes are definitely in there, but it's all about, we're not trying to have a feminist revolution. We're not trying to create a queer utopia like last year's pop girly chapel roan was. We are women embracing traditional femininity and heterosexuality. But only if we are also allowed to critique it while we do it.
- [13:32]
Ayesha Harris
Yeah, I love that you brought that up, because that came to mind when I also watched the video for Tears, which dropped at the same time the album dropped. And that video is playing with one of the most iconic, you know, dualities of heteronormativity and, you know, queerness and the other. And specifically Rocky Horror Picture show, she is the damsel who lands outside the house, the mansion. And then, brilliant piece of casting here. Colman Domingo. Basically, kind of playing the Frank N. Furter character. And he's great, fabulous to watch. But as I was watching it, I was like, you know, this is also just kind of. It's both ambitious, but unlike a chapel roan, she still looks very conventionally, heterosexually hot, right? Like, she is, you know, in lingerie. She's got her big blonde hair, wig, I don't know, whatever it is. And like everyone else around her, they are the queer ones, they are the weird ones, they are the outside the box ones. And she's hot, but she still looks, you know, very quote, unquote, normal.
- [14:35]
Ann Powers
And not only looks it, but also she. In the song, she plays that role like she's not gonna be running off with her best friend or whatever, who's like. She's very driven toward men. Listen, I just wanna say I'm not talking smack about that. Like, it's cool. As a cishet person myself, you know, we need these kinds of figures to poke fun at heterosexuality, to embody our ideals while taking them down a notch, which is what I kind of think she's doing.
- [15:04]
Ayesha Harris
Yeah, I completely agree, Steven.
- [15:06]
Stephen Thompson
Well, and appropriately, with that, I think a lot of the musical signposts here, you know, we've acknowledged Dua Lipa, we've acknowledged kind of 70s country, the various eras being thrown back to on this album. The one that I don't know if it's gonna get discussed enough when people talk about is a certain vein of 80s pop and R and B that has, like, a tinny quality to it and is not necessarily what is considered the classic songs of that era. Names that came up. There's a track on this album called House Tour. Let's hear a little bit of that.
- [15:49]
Sabrina Carpenter (song clips)
I just want you to come inside, but never enter through the back door.
- [15:56]
Ayesha Harris
Because opposites are traps.
- [15:58]
Stephen Thompson
I mean, you mentioned Paula Abdul, Three names that I wrote down. And Aisha. You might not even remember these. Samantha Fox.
- [16:05]
Ayesha Harris
Yes, I know her.
- [16:06]
Stephen Thompson
Stacy Q. Stacey Q. Oh, yes. And Lisa. Lisa. And Cult Jam, of course.
- [16:11]
Ayesha Harris
Yeah.
- [16:11]
Stephen Thompson
Now, these are not necessarily artists who get played. You hear some of their songs on retro radio sometimes, but they're not necessarily synonymous with what people talk about when they talk about 80s music. And to me, this song just taps right into that specific kind of fizzy bubblegum R and B inflected pop of, like, 1986.
- [16:33]
Ann Powers
Yeah, definitely. I mean, Dan Charnas actually wrote a great piece about this for Slate about Espresso, but it's exactly what you're talking about, Stephen. It's like early mid-80s hip hop. Affiliated, but not exactly hip hop, but definitely urban feeling, but also very feminine ingenue feeling. But I want to say I feel like the sonic palette of this record isn't completely confined to that. Let's hear just a tiny bit of the beginning of Never Getting Laid. See, like, to me, that. That's really, like a discofied ballad kind of 70s sound.
- [17:18]
Ayesha Harris
I was getting a little yacht rock, like, I was hearing, like, I keep.
- [17:21]
Ann Powers
Forgetting, you know, what it is. It's yacht rock in a quiet storm.
- [17:28]
Ayesha Harris
Yeah.
- [17:29]
Ann Powers
And the song changes. But that beginning took me right back to the 70s.
- [17:33]
Ayesha Harris
Yeah. I mean, this is sort of what was fascinating to me. And again, this kind of goes back to where I'm a little bit mixed on this album, which is that I don't want to ding her for, you know, continuing to sort of not drill it into the ground, but, you know, like, she is playing this part. And again, at the end of her video For Tears, she has a whole bit where Joe Apollonio the actor, shows up and she's like, you're supposed to be dead. And like, sorry, everyone in my videos dies. And she's like, we have to give the people what we want. And that seems to be kind of the thesis statement for this album. Is y', all, like, short and sweet? I'm gonna give you shorter and sweeter. I don't know if it's actually shorter.
- [18:15]
Ann Powers
But, like, longer and brighter. Shorter and sweeter?
- [18:18]
Ayesha Harris
Yeah. Or not even sweeter, but just, like, saucier.
- [18:21]
Ann Powers
I guess saucy is the word.
- [18:23]
Ayesha Harris
It's varied enough where not every song sounds like it could be a Lonely island song, but then some of them do. Like, in fact, there's moments where I was kind of surprised that we don't just get yacht rock. We don't just get country, we don't just get, like, new Jack, swing light. But we also get, like, banjos, and it's sort of a jig. At some point, I think Sabrina Carpenter.
- [18:43]
Ann Powers
Might play the banjo. I think she actually Might be a banjoist.
- [18:46]
Ayesha Harris
Yeah, you might be right. Whatever we're getting, we're getting lots of different things. And I both appreciate how sonically this feels different from short and sweet. But then sometimes that sort of retro looking back and this pastiche of things, it's hard for me to take it as seriously. Sometimes it just seems like they're kind of butting up against each other. And I worry she could be teetering on schtick versus, like, actually deconstructing all of these ideas. And I think it works more successfully on certain songs than others. And I think that's where I kind of end struggling with this album. But I still really enjoyed it at the same time.
- [19:22]
Ann Powers
I mean, this is always an issue when you're approaching the subject of sex in a comic way, you know, because frankly, I'm just gonna say Americans mostly. Maybe it's not just Americans, but, you know, we're never really comfortable talking about sex. If we make a joke out of it, it's easier. And it's easier, especially for a woman to be explicit if she's comical. And this goes all the way back to like classic Hollywood, someone like Jean Harlow, you know, or in the 70s. I think my friend Carl Wilson in his Slate review of this record talked about Loni Anderson from WKRP in Cincinnati, you know, and I think that's a very down the middle way to approach the subject. And I do appreciate the songs on this that are a little more open to other emotions. Like we almost broke up again last Night.
- [20:12]
Sabrina Carpenter (song clips)
Only I love you and I'm sorry's worse. And then we made amends. That's like a beautiful song to all of our friends. Then we almost broke up again.
- [20:33]
Ann Powers
There's a tenderness to that song. There is a little bit of, I don't know, like, she's not putting on the armor of laughter as much on the.
- [20:42]
Ayesha Harris
It's vulnerable. It's more vulnerable.
- [20:43]
Ann Powers
Exactly.
- [20:44]
Ayesha Harris
At least on the surface.
- [20:45]
Ann Powers
Yeah, exactly.
- [20:46]
Stephen Thompson
I do think there is an element with this record of just looking at it in the trajectory of her career as kind of striking while the iron's hot while at the same time lowering the stakes a little bit. You know, I feel like with a lot of pop star trajectories, there's this sense that, like, you have to top what you did before. There's almost a certain amount of sequel bloat, you know, that comes up. You certainly see it with people like Taylor Swift, where it's like, oh, this album's two hours long, you know, because it has to kind of build on something and be even bigger than the thing before. And for me, like, there's an enormous amount of work that goes into this music. Not only this album and all the sonic touches that we've talked about, but how hard she leans into making really excellent videos and videos that are really superior to most videos being made. But at the same time, the album is, you know, 12 songs in 38 minutes, and it's a little more than a year after the last one. This is her seventh album. She kind of deals in volume, so in a sense, there's a little bit of, like, a lowering of the temperature going on where she doesn't necessarily feel the need to top what she did a year ago, so much as find new ways of looking at it.
- [21:58]
Ann Powers
I think it's always important to talk about, quote, unquote, pop girlies, a term I have some issues with, but to think about pop girlies as musicians and as actually caring about the music they make. And Sabrina Carpenter is a consummate craftswoman. I think she's the perfect foil for Jack Antonoff. You know, like Jack Antonoff, she is fascinated with period pieces, she's fascinated with pastiche, she enjoys playing a role. You know, we think about Jack Antonoff with his bleachers projects, right? He's got this fictional scenario in which that band exists. And I think him as a producer, someone who's so skilled at evoking the periods you mentioned, Stephen, the early 80s and also back into the 70s, matching with him, she can really fully flesh out this role. And unlike Taylor, who some might say is Jack Antonoff's perfect foil, she's not also being like, I have to make a huge statement about my heart, my soul, and how it relates to all of the billions of women in the world or whatever. You know, she's just having fun in the studio. I imagine a lot of laughter happening during the recording of this record. So that's part of it I like. I actually almost like it if I tune out the higher concepts a little bit, or the lower concepts, if you want to call them that, and just enjoy the flow.
- [23:24]
Ayesha Harris
Yeah, we also, like, can't forget that Amy Allen is a huge part of this too. And I think having.
- [23:29]
Ann Powers
Yeah, the songwriter Amy Allen.
- [23:30]
Ayesha Harris
Yeah, having two women in that room, or however many women were, I don't know. But like, having those two specifically, it gives it a little bit more of a tone, especially considering the concept of this album, which is, you know, men. Disappointing men.
- [23:45]
Stephen Thompson
Colon. Sheesh.
- [23:47]
Ann Powers
Aisha. I think we're in A very interesting moment for women in pop right now. Women artists right now working in the mainstream because it's a little unclear where the culture's going. Are we swinging more conservative? I'm trying to get my head around if we're in like a post liberation moment. But there's also all this kind of resurgence of traditional values. Right. This is something that, that pop artists are having to deal with, you know, and I think Sabrina Carpenter is consummately equipped to deal with that. You know, it's as we've been talking about, it's the comic side of what she does. It's the enthusiasm about men. It's not just men. Sheesh. It's also men. Woo.
- [24:33]
Ayesha Harris
Yeah, this is true. Again, Devin, you're hot now.
- [24:38]
Ann Powers
Exactly. She's not leading us to some kind of new horizon of gender roles or intimate relationships, but I think for a lot of people, she's providing kind of lessons on how to cope and if not cope with your partner who's like, not doing what you want, not delivering what you want, at least to have a little chuckle about it.
- [25:03]
Ayesha Harris
Yeah. Roll your eyes while you accept less than you deserve.
- [25:07]
Ann Powers
Roll your eyes above your perfectly rouged apple cheeks.
- [25:12]
Ayesha Harris
Well, we want to know what you think about Sabrina Carpenter's man's best friend. Find us@facebook.com PCHH that brings us to the end of our show. Ann Powers, Stephen Thompson, this was a lovely conversation. Thank you so much.
- [25:25]
Ann Powers
Thank you so much.
- [25:26]
Stephen Thompson
Thank you.
- [25:27]
Ayesha Harris
And we want to take a moment to thank our Pop Culture Happy Hour plus subscribers. We appreciate you so much for showing your support of npr. And if you haven't signed up yet, you want to show your support, support and listen to the show without any sponsor breaks, because who doesn't? Yes. Head over to plus.NPR.org happyhour or visit the link in our show notes. This episode was produced by Carli Rubin, Janae Morris and Mike Katsif, edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. And hello. Kamin provides our theme music. Thanks so much for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. I'm Aisha Harris. We'll see you all next time.
- [26:03]
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