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- [00:01]
NPR Announcer
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- [00:24]
Aisha Harris
There are a lot of movies about absentee dads who reappear in their kids lives. The new movie Sentimental Value is one of the great ones and it stars Stellan Skarsgrd as a filmmaker attempting to reconnect with his estranged daughters. And it proves that at the very least, the tension between art and parenthood is complicated. I'm Aisha Harris. Today we're talking about sentimental pop. Quit your happy hour from npr.
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- [02:30]
Aisha Harris
Joining me today is my co host Stephen Thompson. Hello Stephen.
- [02:33]
Stephen Thompson
Hello Aisha.
- [02:35]
Aisha Harris
Also with us is Vulture TV critic Roxanna Haddadi. Welcome back, Roxanna.
- [02:39]
Roxanna Hadadi
Hey, thank you so much for having me.
- [02:41]
Aisha Harris
Lovely to have you here. Sentimental Values stars Stellan Skarsgrd as Gustav Borg, a renowned filmmaker preparing his next feature, a personal passion he offers the lead role to his estranged daughter Nora, an actress played by Renata Rinesvet, but she turns him down. Still, his re entrance into Nora's life opens the door for possible reconciliation with her, as well as his other daughter Agnes, played by Inga Ib's daughter Lilios. Elle Fanning also stars as Rachel, an American actress whom Gustav casts in the part Nora rejected. It's directed by Joachim Trier, who previously worked with Reinzvet on the Worst Person in the World. Sentimental Value is in theaters now. Stephen, I'm going to start with you. You are a resident sentimental critic here.
- [03:27]
Stephen Thompson
Resident sentimentalist.
- [03:29]
Aisha Harris
Yes, yes. And so I am so curious. How are we feeling about this film?
- [03:34]
Stephen Thompson
Well, you know, I think Aisha, you recommended. As soon as you saw this movie, you were like, stephen, you need to see this. You're going to sob all over the place. And you know, that is a safe assumption in general, really, when recommending any movie. I really liked this film. I really admired this film. I love of the performances in this film. I think this is basically across the board a wonderfully acted film. I didn't necessarily sob all over the place. I mostly sat there kind of vibing with it and appreciating it. This film has a lot to say about kind of generational trauma. There are a lot of kind of cross generational interactions that are kind of freighted. There's this central metaphor about this house where this family kind of grew up and how it is figuratively and literally a broken home. It has a crack running up the foundation, up the wall, and you're like, that is a tidy metaphor. So I wasn't necessarily always 100% knocked out by it, but I think these performances are just marvelous. I loved Renata Rheinzva in the Worst Person in the World. I thought she was magnificent in that. I'm always interested in whatever she does. The fact that she's working with the same director. I'm like, man, these two can just keep making movies together. But for me, the revelation was Inge Ebsdotter Lilaos as Agnes. It's such a low key performance and it feels, you know, she's surrounded by these kind of decorated actors. You know, she is a decorated actor, just not super well known here. To me, she just jumped off the screen and that is such a contained and powerful performance.
- [05:12]
Aisha Harris
Yeah, there's a very lovely moment towards the end of the film that happens between her character and Nora. And that sort of sister dynamic plays out so interestingly because she herself has not pursued the acting career even Though, you know, they both grew up with their father being famous. And so, like, that's such an interesting way to see these two different people who have shared trauma and shared a shared relationship. And you're so right. That's such a great performance. Roxanna, how are we feeling about sentimental value?
- [05:45]
Roxanna Hadadi
I am very pro. I mean, look, like, you know all my preferences, right? My preferences are like, Stellan being Stellan. Like, I love when he sort of plays this, like, very defensive in his bad decisions kind of figure. Like, I think that's great. I'm coded to love that now forever because of Andor. So I really loved him here as someone who has committed himself fully to art. And he's like, yeah, my family was second. Like, it had to be second because I had to make art. Art. And so I think that the movie does a really good job getting into that ideology and just sort of spending time with what it is to be a filmmaker. What kind of conversations do you have with actors? How do you cast people? How do you make them into the characters they're trying to perform? I really loved that aspect of it. The family stuff is, like, very weighted. And yes, it has this, like, house metaphor that keeps coming up. But I really enjoyed the sort of, like, how do you make a movie? Especially when the movie is, like, plumbing your inner life, right? Like, what is off limits? What is not off limits? And there are all these moments where Stellan's character says, like, well, this isn't about me. And you sort of have to laugh.
- [07:11]
Stephen Thompson
Because, like, yeah, right, buddy, buddy.
- [07:13]
Roxanna Hadadi
The entire movie is your life story and you're drawing your daughters into it, right? So it did not make me super emotional so much as it felt very, very satisfying to spend time with this script and with these characters. And so I just. I hate to say, like, the vibes, but the vibe of it in terms of, like, diving into actual creative pursuit, I think is what I really, really liked and responded to.
- [07:41]
Aisha Harris
Yeah.
- [07:42]
Stephen Thompson
I also think this movie is a little bit of a slow burn where it takes a little bit of time for some of the relationship to fully sink in. And as I was watching it in the theater, I'd had the thought several times of, like, why is Elle Fanning in this movie? Yeah, like, Elle Fanning is brought into this movie. She's like the famous glitzy movie actress who was brought in to be the stand in for Renate Reinsfah's character who doesn't want to work with her father. But, like, looking back on it and kind of thinking about the film in hindsight, like, she's there because he relates to actors better than he relates to his kids. 100% Y to be actors, so that he can connect to them.
- [08:24]
Roxanna Hadadi
Yes.
- [08:24]
Stephen Thompson
And I think that's a really interesting facet of this film, that it's more than just about family, it's also about filmmakers.
- [08:33]
Aisha Harris
Yes. Yeah. For me, Elle Fanning was actually one of my favorite parts of this film. If not agree that entire dynamic, she's quietly becoming one of those actresses who. Where I see her in something and I'm like, oh, I'm very happy you're here. She's often not in the conversation with the women in her sort of cohort. You know, your Jennifer Lawrence is like. But she should be. Because I think especially here, while at first, as you said, Steven, it's not clear why she's there. There is this whole subplot of her trying to be molded by Gustav. And it is very Vertigo. It is very like, I want you to dye your hair. I want you to do these things. And she's going along because she's like, I have this opportunity to work with this brilliant artist, and this could be great. And there's a way that this could have been played. She's the American actress, the Hollywood actress who just kind of wants to, like, put this under her belt and maybe get an Oscar. Like, there's a way this could have felt like a very queasy role, but it's very clear she wants to do good work. But what I loved about that dynamic is that while that's happening and he's dealing with his not being a good father, she is trying to figure out, like, where do I fit in? And maybe realizing maybe this isn't right for me. There is just something about that and seeing that play out in a way that it's often really hard to get filmmaking and rehearsing right to, like, on film. Like, it's hard to make it seem like, feel like the natural process of that. And I think what Joachim Trier is able to do here is really get into the nitty gritty about what it's like to work one on one with someone, especially when you want them to be something or, like, want to try and work, like, create a character, and they're not sure how to do it, and you're not sure what you want either. And I loved that we cover a.
- [10:16]
Stephen Thompson
Lot of movies about the process of making art. And making art is a thing that is really hard to capture on film. And often you wind up shorthanding it with, like, the lone genius sitting at a writing table, scribbling out and throwing into the wastebasket.
- [10:33]
Aisha Harris
And, like, mank.
- [10:35]
Stephen Thompson
Yeah, mank. That's supposed to represent what the artistic process is all about. But so often, I mean, the artistic process, often, generally, I say this all the time, is not the work of a lone genius. It's the product of collaboration. And how do you capture the kind of thorny, conversational, frustrated, kind of tightly wound process, you know, that results in great art? And this film, I think, really does get at it, while also capturing how hard that can be to translate into the collaboration necessary to have a happy and healthy family.
- [11:11]
Roxanna Hadadi
I also think the thing that I really liked, and it's very much part of that, is that there's sort of this question of, like, who owns your personal experience? Especially when your personal experience, like, overlaps with other people. And, like, we get into this, like, a lot with just, like, autobiographical art in general. Like, is it your place to speak to things that you experienced when they involve other people and those other people don't want you to speak to them? And so there's this whole undercurrent there as well. And there's this, like, wonderful scene where the characters of Nora and Rachel meet.
- [11:48]
Aisha Harris
Why didn't you want to do the role?
- [11:50]
Roxanna Hadadi
I can't work with him.
- [11:51]
Aisha Harris
Why?
- [11:52]
Roxanna Hadadi
We can't really talk.
- [11:54]
Aisha Harris
But he wanted you to do it.
- [11:56]
Roxanna Hadadi
Yeah, yeah. And they have this, like, sort of existential discussion. Right. About, like, what is that relationship like? And I just think all of that was really fascinating. The other thing that I will say that I really enjoyed is there is sort of this, like, in Gustav's character, this sort of, like, hierarchy of art that I actually really liked. Like, he insults television, which, of course, a film director would do, and he sort of. He sort of, like, discredits the fact that Nora has become, like, a very celebrated stage actor. Right.
- [12:32]
Stephen Thompson
Like, he doesn't want any part of the stage.
- [12:35]
Aisha Harris
Yeah. Which is weird.
- [12:36]
Roxanna Hadadi
Yeah.
- [12:37]
Aisha Harris
You would think there would be a little bit more reverence for the stage.
- [12:40]
Stephen Thompson
But, I mean, stage purism is such a thing, right?
- [12:43]
Aisha Harris
Yeah, that's true. Yeah.
- [12:44]
Roxanna Hadadi
You know, we're talking a lot about sort of, like, the emotional resonance and the trauma and all that stuff is 100% there. But I also liked these moments when the characters can just be sort of shady about different art forms.
- [12:58]
Aisha Harris
Yes, yes.
- [12:59]
Stephen Thompson
It speaks to the quality of both the script and these performances that these feel, like fully richly thought out and drawn characters.
- [13:08]
Aisha Harris
Yeah, absolutely. I did want to kind of Ask about. Like, before we got on mic, Roxanna, you and I were chatting about similarities between this and another film that will be out this fall season. Jake, Ellie. The Noah Baumbach film starring George Clooney. Very, very similar. Very similar in plots.
- [13:27]
Roxanna Hadadi
Yeah.
- [13:28]
Aisha Harris
George Clooney is playing instead of a director. He's a big movie star, basically kind of a himself, but not.
- [13:34]
Roxanna Hadadi
Yeah, yeah.
- [13:35]
Aisha Harris
And he's trying to reconnect with his daughters and figure out, you know, where did I go wrong? Why is I absence heat? So hear me out for a second. Remember in the 90s, I guess, 80s and 90s, where there was a slew of movies where the dads who were, like, workaholics were getting. You know, it's like you had to go through a whole rigmarole, or it's like, oh, you're not there for your kids. And then, like, at the end of the movie, they realize, you know, oh, well, I need to be a better father. Work is everything.
- [13:59]
Stephen Thompson
That's when you hurl your cell phone into the river.
- [14:01]
Aisha Harris
Right, Exactly.
- [14:02]
Roxanna Hadadi
Yeah.
- [14:03]
Aisha Harris
Well, I mean, this feels like, you know, the elevated version of that. Sure. Instead of, you know, like, Tim Allen.
- [14:09]
Stephen Thompson
Or whatever, it's Stella and Skarsgrd, Robin Williams, Jim Carrey.
- [14:13]
Roxanna Hadadi
We're talking about hook. Can we just say that we're talking about hook? Like, that's fine. Sure.
- [14:16]
Aisha Harris
We're talking about hook. I'm just curious because, like, having seen both of these movies, just, like, what is it about this sort of exercise, especially when you're talking about fathers and not mothers? Is there anything you want to say about that?
- [14:29]
Roxanna Hadadi
Well, I think we're generally just sort of living in, like, a heavily fathers of daughters time. Like, that just seems to be, like, so much of the content that we get. I mean, the last of us as fathers of daughters. Like both of these movies, Fathers of daughters. And I think part of that, of course, is that, like, we still live in a society that is very much. Movie directors are fathers of daughters.
- [14:50]
Aisha Harris
That's true.
- [14:52]
Roxanna Hadadi
You know, like, we just get their crises because that's who's making art. I will say that I do think that, yes, these movies are sort of, like, interesting counterpoints to each other, I would say. I think that, for me, Sentimental Value felt more about filmmaking and memory. And I think J. Kelly felt more about, like, the Celebrity Machine. Less to me about the daughter dynamic. I think it felt more like, what is it like to be George Clooney? And that's sort of fun to explore, but I think it just felt More about, like, star making than it felt about, like, art making.
- [15:37]
Stephen Thompson
And I can't speak to J. Kelly. I haven't seen it yet. But I do think one thing this film gets right in comparison to so many other films about dads and daughters is this movie cares very deeply about the interior lives of the daughters.
- [15:53]
Aisha Harris
Yes.
- [15:53]
Stephen Thompson
And does write by the interior lives of the daughters. And part of that is a testament to the performances. But part of that is the movie actually cares about them. And the dad is a little bit more of an ephemeral, mercurial presence. Like, he's the one. You don't necessarily know everything that makes that guy tick. I think the film is ultimately more interested in the daughters, to its credit.
- [16:17]
Aisha Harris
Absolutely. I think we spend almost as much time with them.
- [16:20]
Stephen Thompson
If not more.
- [16:20]
Aisha Harris
Yeah, if not more. And I think for me, one of my biggest issues. Well, my only issue with this film, sentimental value, really, is the ending. I did feel as though there was some emotional. There are some emotional beats that somehow were skipped. Even though this is a very emotional movie and there's so much attention to detail. It's like the last few minutes, I did feel a little bit let down by how kind of tidy it all felt. Not perfect, but just tidy.
- [16:49]
Stephen Thompson
It's exactly the right word.
- [16:50]
Aisha Harris
It doesn't undermine. It doesn't ruin the rest of the experience of the film for me, but it does kind of give me, like, I kind of wish there was a different decision made there.
- [17:00]
Roxanna Hadadi
I sort of felt like the ending was inevitable. Like, I don't know how else you would end this movie given sort of, like, the themes that it is talking about in terms of artistic expression. And is it most important to do art that challenges you or just art that you're good at? And I think that those are very different things in this film. I can see your point that. I feel like maybe there are some squishiness in terms of how we get there, but I always sort of thought we would get there, so I was okay with it by the end.
- [17:35]
Aisha Harris
Yeah.
- [17:36]
Stephen Thompson
I think there are ways they could have actually biffed the ending. And I appreciated that they didn't.
- [17:41]
Aisha Harris
That's true.
- [17:42]
Stephen Thompson
It does feel a little tidy. In a film that is willing to go so much deeper in other ways. I think that's maybe why the tidiness stands out.
- [17:50]
Aisha Harris
EO Kim Cher has talked about how he sees this as sort of like an exercising of his own anxieties about being a father.
- [17:59]
Roxanna Hadadi
Right.
- [18:00]
Aisha Harris
I don't want to psychoanalyze him here, but I do wonder if that maybe is part of why he made that decision with the ending is like he's still working through things.
- [18:08]
Roxanna Hadadi
Right. I also think that it also speaks to the fact that this is why you cast Stellan. Right. Like Stellan has. I'm gonna make this joke, which is not true, but Stellan has like a million children. They're all in acting. Right. Like, I think that there is also.
- [18:22]
Stephen Thompson
Sort of family Skarsgrd.
- [18:24]
Roxanna Hadadi
Yeah. There's also this sort of interesting meta layer to having Stellan, who mostly has sons, who are actors playing this character, who has daughters, who are involved in this industry, but in different ways from what he expected. So I also thought the ending sort of spoke to that for me and maybe that's why I responded to it favorably, but it sort of felt like it again aligned with life in sort of like a peculiar sentimental way that I responded to.
- [19:00]
Aisha Harris
Well, I think we all really dug this and think people should absolutely see this film. Yes, it is a very moving movie. It didn't make us all cry, but I think it'll at least make you sniffle maybe.
- [19:11]
Stephen Thompson
I mean, Aisha, I cried a little.
- [19:13]
Roxanna Hadadi
Oh, you can feel things and not cry. You know this is true.
- [19:18]
Stephen Thompson
Well, you say so.
- [19:19]
Roxanna Hadadi
I cry a lot. A lot of tears.
- [19:23]
Aisha Harris
Well, tell us what you think about sentimental value when you've had a chance to check it out. Find us on Facebook@facebook.com PCHH and on Letterboxd@letterboxd.com NPRpopculture we'll have a link to that in our episode description. That brings us to the end of our show. Roxanna Hadadi, Stephen Thompson, thanks so much for being here.
- [19:41]
Roxanna Hadadi
Thank you, guys.
- [19:42]
Stephen Thompson
Thank you.
- [19:43]
Aisha Harris
This episode was produced by Liz Metzger, Carly Rubin and Mike Katsif and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. Hello. Kamin provides our theme music. Thanks for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. I'm Aisha Harris and we'll see you all next time.
- [20:03]
NPR Announcer
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