Loading summary
Transcript85 lines
- [00:00]
NPR Sponsor Announcer
This message comes from NPR sponsor Capella University. Interested in a quality online education? Capella is accredited by the Higher Learning Commission. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more@capella.edu.
- [00:17]
Stephen Thompson
Are you that friend, the one who's constantly recommending podcast episodes to anyone who will Listen? Subscribe to NPR's pod club newsletter and nerd out with us. You'll get fresh podcast recommendations every week handpicked by the people who live for this stuff. Subscribe@npr.org podclub. You can find the link in the description for this episode. The horror franchise the Conjuring has generated billions of dollars across many films and spinoffs full of hauntings, demonic possession and creepy dolls. Now the Conjuring Last Rites purports to wind down the story of the demon hunting couple whose exploits inspired the series. But does it have a new story to tell? I'm Stephen Thompson. And joining me today on NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour is the host of Weekend Edition Sunday, Aisha Roscoe. Hey, Aisha.
- [01:14]
Aisha Roscoe
Hey. Hey. May God be with you.
- [01:17]
Stephen Thompson
And also with you. Also with us is NPR's culture desk correspondent, Netta Ulaby. Hey, Netta.
- [01:23]
Netta Ulaby
Hey. Hail Satan.
- [01:28]
Stephen Thompson
I'm sure we'll leave that in. So the Conjuring movies are based very loosely on the lives of Lorraine and Ed Warren. They were a real life couple who claimed to investigate paranormal activity, demonic possession, haunted houses, that sort of thing. They're played in the Conjuring movies by Vera Farmiga and Patrick Wilson and are portrayed as a deeply loving couple with an unshakable bond. The Conjuring Last Rites brings their story to a close as they battle one last demonic threat, a house in Pennsylvania that contains a haunted mirror and a terrified family. The Warrens are near the end of their careers, giving lectures to indifferent crowds when they're not doting over their adult daughter, Judy, played by Mia Tomlinson. But they get slowly and inexorably sucked back into demon hunting, even as it endangers their lives and members of their family.
- [02:19]
Netta Ulaby
That thing in your attic is a demon.
- [02:22]
Sponsor Announcer
It's the first one that we ever encountered.
- [02:26]
Netta Ulaby
We were young and we were scared and we almost lost our daughter. So we told ourselves that the risk was just too great so we couldn't chance going back.
- [02:37]
Stephen Thompson
The film was directed by Michael Chavs, who also directed the the Devil Made Me do it and a couple of other movies in the Conjuring cinematic universe. It's in theaters now. Aisha, Roscoe, I'm gonna start with you what did you think of the Conjuring Last Rites?
- [02:52]
Aisha Roscoe
I loved it. Okay, let's just get it out of the way. I loved it. I've seen all of the Conjuring movies, and so I didn't come in with, like, high hopes for this one. I love the first one. I think sequels are always tough, right? But I love a scary movie. Doesn't matter whether it's really good or bad or what. You know, that's just my thing. I'm just. I go and enjoy. But I, you know, honestly felt like this movie took some surprising twists that I didn't expect. Right. Not, like, shocking. I'm not going to say that it was like, it wasn't a shocker, but I was looking for certain beats and where I thought they were going to go, right. They went a little bit, you know, a little left, a little left. Not all the way to the other direction, but a little left. And so it was enough to get me drawn in, and it was enough for me to be like, well, where are they going with this? It definitely had the big scope of, like, this is an ending. I was thinking of this as, like, you know, conjuring endgame.
- [03:52]
Stephen Thompson
Okay, sure.
- [03:53]
Aisha Roscoe
It was like they brought in all the nods to the other stuff if you watched it earlier, the candle thing and the scary dolls and all that. But I felt like they didn't layer it on so much that you were like, oh, my gosh, this is just some slop. Like, I felt like they were a little held back. I really did. And then the scares really scared me. And maybe I'm totally biased, but, you know, the couple who I love, Vera Farmiga and Patrick Wilson, are amazing. Like, their chemistry. I love them as a couple. I just love them. And I was so touched by the story. And I kid you not, at the end of this movie, the person beside me was crying. They teared up. They were so touched. At the end of this movie, I. I kid you not. I was not the only one moved up in there. So, yes, I really liked it.
- [04:50]
Stephen Thompson
Okay. How about you, Nita?
- [04:52]
Netta Ulaby
Well, I totally agree with Aisha. I thought the first Conjuring movie, which was directed by James Wan, was a lot of fun. In general, though, I would say that I think this is a $2.3 billion series. It's the most lucrative horror movie series in history, and I think this one is going to have no bigger fans than Movie the owners who are counting on it to sell tickets between now and when the next Tron movie comes out on October 10th.
- [05:24]
Stephen Thompson
But what did you think of the movie?
- [05:25]
Netta Ulaby
I thought it was all right. I think a lot of horror movie fans like me, think the first two were good, that the Shoves entries have been okay, you know, and there are a lot of horror movie fans who feel ethically dubious about the entire conjuring enterprise to begin with, but we can get into that. Yeah.
- [05:47]
Stephen Thompson
I think for me, it's pretty hard to hand wave away the ethical elements of this film, that these films are based on. The accounts of various. You're going to hear the scare quotes when I say demonic possession, that these films are based on, the stories that this real life couple has told. The film is extremely credulous in the way that it portrays these people. And to me, I mean, I'm delighted to hear Aisha talk about how much she loved it. Cause I think that, you know, first of all, I want movies to be good and I want people to like them. I just found it so slow. I felt like it's all building to a, you know, kind of a climactic showdown, as so many of these movies do. But I felt like the way the film is structured, you're getting a lot of the Warrens, you know, personal lives. They've got this daughter, she's got a boyfriend, they're in love. And they're the heroes who are on the hero's journey. They're resisting the call. There's a lot of them kind of resisting the call. And then we get a lot of this unrelated family in Pennsylvania dealing with this haunting. And the film, to me, just takes forever to get to the point, to kind of just get to where they're actually facing this big bad. And so to me, I was kind of bored with the structure of the film. And I think my overarching issue with the conjuring movies in general is I find the for that they're battling feel very generic and indistinct, in part because we've all seen haunted house movies, we've all seen demonic possession movies, and nothing they're facing feels like it's much of a metaphor for anything kind of beyond the typical, like, fear of demonic possession, which we've seen in a thousand exorcist movies and, you know, any number of other franchises. And so for me, like, the one thing that's distinct about these movies is the portrayal of that couple. But then I have all these ethical issues with this couple and the way that they're portrayed.
- [07:54]
Netta Ulaby
Oh, I have ethical issues with the pacing, too. The fictional couple is tremendous.
- [08:02]
Aisha Roscoe
They're amazing.
- [08:04]
Netta Ulaby
The performance of Patrick Wilson and Vera Farmiga is truly, I think, the strongest thing that the Conjuring franchise has going for it.
- [08:12]
Aisha Roscoe
Absolutely.
- [08:13]
Netta Ulaby
They should win Academy Awards. And there is something interesting about how they're really positioned as Christian superheroes at this cultural moment.
- [08:22]
Aisha Roscoe
Well, that's the thing that I wanted to get into. It's so interesting because it is a Christian superhero story with crosses and the Bible and Jesus. And I'm like, where else do you see that in popular culture on such a huge scale? It's a very surprisingly conservative part of horror, and which I think a lot of people don't realize, or because the way it's sold, they don't even pick up on the fact that it's very religious. Like, you don't get that in other genres. Like, you just, like, where people are seriously, like, let me get the word. Oh, my gosh, the cross is upside down. The devil. Like, I am a Christian, but it is fascinating to me to see this on such a large scale.
- [09:16]
Netta Ulaby
I reported a piece about this movie in the Backstory because it is such an incredibly popular and lucrative franchise. And I talked to this bestselling horror writer named Grady Hendrix, who I think is just the bee's knees.
- [09:28]
Aisha Roscoe
Yes, I've read a lot of his stuff. We had it on Weekend Edition Sunday.
- [09:31]
Netta Ulaby
Yes, he's wonderful. He's kind of a student of the occult and popular culture. And he told me something that as soon as he said it, I was like, oh, this makes all the sense in the world. But like you, it hadn't even occurred to me. So he said that the Warrens, the real life Ed and Lorraine Warren, emerged and started to craft their image after the success of the exorcism novel End Movie, which itself was super popular partly because Vatican II had just happened in the 60s, and there were a lot of very hardcore priests who felt that Vatican II made the church too liberal and that it needed to go back to its true mission, which was fighting the devil and all of its manifestations. And Ed Warren was among that kind of Catholic who felt that Vatican II had made the church too liberal and that one of the things that the Catholic Church needed to do was fight the devil when it inhabited people's bodies and tried to make them do bad things.
- [10:25]
Aisha Roscoe
Oh, my gosh. Yes. No, that makes total sense because the church is often standing in the way of the Warrens doing the work.
- [10:34]
Netta Ulaby
You know, the Vatican II Church.
- [10:35]
Aisha Roscoe
Yes, the Vatican 2 church. You gotta go back.
- [10:39]
Stephen Thompson
It is definitely a secondary battle, is not only kind of the skeptical bureaucracy of the church and skeptics themselves. Skeptics themselves are treated in these movies certainly, like obstacles and at best, kind of misguided fools. And as a person who is fairly skeptically inclined, I do not enjoy being made the villain of your horror movie.
- [11:02]
Aisha Roscoe
But isn't that the way it is in most movies, Steven? In horror movies, the skeptic always gets it. The skeptic is like, I don't believe this or ever. And then here comes the monster stab you in the back. See, you're so dumb. You should have believed it. But I agree, there's a lot of.
- [11:19]
Netta Ulaby
Things that's dangerous to be in horror movies. I'm just gonna put that out there. You know, it's killed first.
- [11:25]
Stephen Thompson
There are very few horror movies where there is one subset of people who are just always safe.
- [11:29]
Netta Ulaby
That's right.
- [11:31]
Aisha Roscoe
And I will say, too, that these movies as exorcism movies. I mean, I love the Exorcist. That's like my favorite movie. These aren't really an exploration of faith, whereas the Exorcist was an exploration of faith. And often exorcism movies, which I also love, are. I mean, I'm talking about in general, exorcism movies are about an exploration of a person's faith and why they might not have faith or why they would have faith. Whereas I will say conjuring is not that. It's not a deep exploration of why people believe or don't. It is really about. It's almost like the Fast and the Furious. Cause it's about family.
- [12:10]
Stephen Thompson
It's about family.
- [12:12]
Aisha Roscoe
Yeah, that's what it's about.
- [12:15]
Netta Ulaby
I think it is about family. I talked to Michael Shabs about what it was that he felt like this movie had to say about what's happening culturally right now. Because we were just talking about how the Exorcist reflected what was happening with Vatican ii. And horror movies so often reflect sets of cultural anxieties and fears, you know, like the radioactive monsters during the atomic age and, like, the rise of second wave feminism and Final Girl. So I was like, Michael Shabbs, what do you feel like the conjuring movies have to do with right now? And we had been talking a little bit about how the movies really lean into this kind of evocation of the 1970s and 80s. And it's this kind of. You know, we see this a lot like the Stranger Things, kind of like nostalgia for the time when the horror movie makers themselves were reading their Stephen King novels and watching the Exorcist. And it's kind of summoning up that moment. And can we just play a little tape of what he told me about what he thinks the movie has to say about right now?
- [13:13]
Michael Chavs
I think the feeling of a working class family in that time that could not get ahead is very powerful. That was something that was always on my mind. And when I thought about the Smurls and I thought about how they just. Nobody would listen to them and no one, you know, they just. They were a good Catholic family. Why would this thing happen to them? They can't quite get ahead. And that feeling of kind of just dreadful anxiety, I think that's really palpable today as it was in the 70s. And I think that that was, you know, part of the emotion and the feeling I wanted to capture.
- [13:44]
Netta Ulaby
And to be clear, I think you can guess this from the context, but the Smurls are the family whose house is haunted in the movie. Yeah.
- [13:51]
Stephen Thompson
And it's interesting, that portrayal of the Smurls and the kind of working class neighborhood they're in. I definitely chuckled several times during this movie at the way it sort of presents. Like Pennsylvania, Land of Sorrow.
- [14:04]
Aisha Roscoe
It's very gray there. It's so gray. It was never sunny and bright. It was very dark smokestacks. But I think that is very compelling to people like that 80s, you know, aesthetic. And they were such a happy family. That was another thing I was hearing in the theater. It's like, they're so happy. Look at the Smurls. They're so great. They're so like, they have the little twins running around.
- [14:35]
Stephen Thompson
It seems like exactly the sort of family that would really benefit from a haunted mirror.
- [14:39]
Netta Ulaby
I'll tell you how it kind of struck me this is a movie about desperately trying to keep a family intact. Right, Right. And who among us hasn't had this experience that using the Internet as a bit of a metaphor, we are surrounded by these powerful forces unseen that live in our walls, that whisper to us, that tell us narratives, that cause us great anxiety, that are listening to us, that are listening to us, that seem to cause relatives sometimes to say the most horrible things. And you look at them and you're like, what are you saying? I can relate. I mean, can't you?
- [15:18]
Stephen Thompson
Wow, Netta, you just made these films make so much more metaphorical sense to me.
- [15:24]
Netta Ulaby
Well, I think partly why horror movies are just so scary. Do you remember when J. Horror was a big thing? Japanese horror there was like, the Ring movies. And I interviewed the guy, the Japanese novelist who wrote the original Ring novel through a translator, and he was so amazing and moving. And we were talking about the cross cultural appeal of horror and he said, we do not know when the mouse laughs, but we know when the mouse is frightened.
- [15:50]
Aisha Roscoe
I love that.
- [15:51]
Netta Ulaby
That has always stuck with me.
- [15:55]
Stephen Thompson
One other thing that I wanted to talk about, the kind of based on a true story of it all really rubs me the wrong way.
- [16:01]
Aisha Roscoe
That's the thing, like, when it deals with the real people, and I don't know that it even needed to deal with the real people. I agree. When you hear about, you know, the people on the screen, you know, when you look at based on the real story, you don't really think it. I mean, you don't think this is really real. Of course it's a movie.
- [16:19]
Netta Ulaby
Yeah.
- [16:19]
Aisha Roscoe
You know, did they really need to have that element of it? Because really, it was about the casting. It's about the writing. It's not about just being able to say, oh, based on a true story. I don't know that that's why anyone even likes the conjuring.
- [16:34]
Netta Ulaby
Right?
- [16:35]
Stephen Thompson
Yeah, I think that is definitely one of my issues with it. For one thing, by this point, these stories feel derivative. Right? Like it feels like a derivative of other horror franchises. So why not just that as a jumping off point instead of giving us these crawls about what happened to real people? But I mean, look, $2.3 billion. Yeah, clearly Aisha Roscoe has contributed to that $2.3 billion.
- [17:01]
Netta Ulaby
Hey, she went to a screening.
- [17:03]
Aisha Roscoe
I did it for work.
- [17:04]
Stephen Thompson
I bet you're buying merch.
- [17:05]
Aisha Roscoe
Oh, I love.
- [17:06]
Netta Ulaby
I bought the dvd.
- [17:07]
Aisha Roscoe
Look, I put the poster up. Listen, I am a part of the problem. I'm not gonna say I'm not a part of the problem. I'm not gonna say that.
- [17:15]
Stephen Thompson
All right, well, we want to know what you think about the conjuring last rites. Find us on Facebook@facebook.com PCHH and on Letterboxd@letterboxd.com NPRpopculture. We'll have a link in our episode description. Up next, what is making us happy this week?
- [17:33]
NPR Sponsor Announcer
This message comes from Apple Pay. Forget your wallet. It's all good, because with Apple Pay, you can pay with a simple tap of your iPhone, the wallet you never forget. At millions of places worldwide, including websites, apps, and anywhere you see the contactless symbol. Security is built in with face ID so you don't have to worry about your cards getting lost or stolen. And the best part, you still earn the card rewards, points and cash back you love. So say goodbye to the bifold, add your card to Apple Wallet, and Start paying the Apple Way terms apply. This message comes from NPR sponsor Capella University. Sometimes it takes a different approach to pursue your goals. Capella is an online university accredited by the Higher Learning Commission. That means you can earn your degree from wherever you are and be confident your education is relevant, recognized and respected. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more about earning a relevant degree at Capella.
- [18:34]
Sponsor Announcer
Eduardo this message comes from Moises, proud supporter of NPR music and the 2025 Tiny Dess giveaway. You can win a trip for two to see a Tiny Dess concert live at NPR's headquarters. Enter for free by September 12th and increase your odds by donating to the NPR Network. Support comes from Moises, your AI Powered studio created by Musicians for Musicians. Learn more at Moises AI. No purchase or donation required for entry. Must be 18 years or older to enter. Links to the entry page and official rules can be found@npr.org tinydeskgiveaway.
- [19:11]
NPR Sponsor Announcer
This message comes from Viking, committed to exploring the world in comfort. Journey through the heart of Europe on an elegant Viking longship with thoughtful service, destination focused dining and cultural enrichment on board and on shore. And every Viking voyage is all inclusive with no children and no casinos. Discover more@viking.com now it's time for our.
- [19:34]
Stephen Thompson
Favorite segment of this week and every week. What's making us happy this week? Aisha Roscoe, I'm gonna start with you. What's making you happy this week, buddy?
- [19:41]
Aisha Roscoe
Okay, I like to always bring something kind of old and offbeat for what's making me happy. You know, I love animation and I love, like, superheroes and stuff. And so I've been watching Batman vs Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. It's a movie, and you can get it on, like, Prime Video or any of them, but it's basically like a crossover between the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Batman. And it's animated. And I just think it's so much fun. You know, you have Shredder and the Ooze in, you know, in Gotham with Ra's Al Ghul and all that. And it's just, it's just like a fun thing. Like, we deal with so much serious stuff. And if you like superheroes and you just like, you know, turtles that eat a lot of pizza and stuff, I'm saying just turn it on, rent this and have some fun. Cause life is dark.
- [20:37]
Stephen Thompson
Love it. Thank you. Aisha Roscoe, Neda Ulaby, what's making you happy this week?
- [20:41]
Netta Ulaby
So there is a local band in my community that I love and they feel very apropos for this moment. They are called Fangs and Twang.
- [20:50]
Stephen Thompson
Okay.
- [20:51]
Netta Ulaby
And the way they describe themselves is they fuse Gothic, horror, cryptozoology, classic rock, Americana and outlaw country. Their songs have names like Undead and Unwed and Jesus drove a wooden cross through my heart and a song that I've pulled called you monster.
- [21:12]
Aisha Roscoe
I believe in Frogman, Dogman more than.
- [21:17]
Stephen Thompson
Most any man I know.
- [21:19]
Aisha Roscoe
I believe in ghost things and most things.
- [21:23]
Stephen Thompson
The problem is I don't believe you anymore I don't believe you anymore.
- [21:28]
Netta Ulaby
This band is, I think, just about the best thing ever and more people should know about them.
- [21:32]
Stephen Thompson
Now, your community, Netta, we don't need to pinpoint your exact location, but these days you live in Michigan, so I.
- [21:39]
Netta Ulaby
Live in Ypsilanti, Michigan. And if ever there was a place that had a band called Fangs and Twang, this would be it.
- [21:45]
Stephen Thompson
All right. Thank you, Netta Uluby so what's making me happy? The band Ivy was a source of many minor pop pleasures over the course of six albums in almost 20 years. And when I say minor pop pleasures, I don't mean that as any kind of slight. It's just that Ivy's songs had a certain breeziness and lightness that really, really worked for it. And, you know, the band was a trio of Andy Chase, Dominique Durand, and Adam Schlesinger, who was also a member of F Fountains of Wayne, among many other projects. And Ivy's last album came out in 2011. Adam Schlesinger unfortunately died in 2020, so it certainly seemed like we'd never get any more Ivy music. But the surviving members and some key collaborators have assembled one more album working from a cache of old IV demos. And the songs are lovely and bittersweet. They sound fully fleshed out and complete, and they all incorporate recordings that contain Adam Schlesinger's work with his family's bless. The album is called Traces of youf. It's a deeply bittersweet project, but it also lives up to the Ivy records that came before it, as you can hear in one of the singles, say youy Will. So yeah, it's a lovely song, a lovely little piece of nostalgia, and a fine way to celebrate the legacy of a dearly missed genius that is Ivy and their new album Traces of youf, that is what is making me happy this week. If you want links for what we recommended plus some more recommendations, sign up for our newsletter@npr.org pop culturenewsletter that brings us to the end of our show. Netta Ulaby, Ayesha Roscoe, thanks so much for being here.
- [23:43]
Aisha Roscoe
Thanks for having me. It was so much fun.
- [23:45]
Netta Ulaby
Thank you so much. I really had a good time.
- [23:47]
Stephen Thompson
It has been a blast. This episode was produced by Carli Rubin, Janae Morris and Mike Katsif and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. Hello. Come in. Provides our theme music. Thanks for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. I'm Stephen Thompson and we will see you all next week.
- [24:08]
Sponsor Announcer
This message comes from Mint Mobile. If you're tired of spending hundreds on big wireless bills, bogus fees and free perks, Mint Mobile might be right for you with plans starting from 15 bucks a month. Shop plans today@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required. New customer offer for first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.
- [24:34]
NPR Sponsor Announcer
This message comes from NPR sponsor Capella University. Interested in a quality online education. Capella is accredited by the Higher Learning Commission. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more@capella.edu.
- [24:51]
Sponsor Announcer
This message comes from Mint Mobile. Mint Mobile took what's wrong with wireless and made it right. They offer premium wireless plans for less and all plans include high speed data, unlimited talk and text and nationwide coverage. See for yourself@mintmobile.com. switch.