Margaret H. Willison (2:48)

Such a joy to be here.

Glen Weldon (2:49)

Glenn, I'm glad you're here. In the Fall and Rise of Reggie Dinkins. Tracy Morgan is Reggie Dinkins, former New York jet who was banned from the NFL for gambling. D Daniel Radcliffe is Arthur Tobin, an Oscar winning documentarian whose implosion on a major film set went viral, destroying his career. The two men need each other. So Arthur embeds himself in Reggie's palatial mansion to make a documentary about him. Reggie's high strung ex wife is still his manager. She's played by Erica Alexander, Reggie's former teammate. Rusty lives in his basement. He's played by the great and good Bobby Moynihan. Robert Carlock is one of the showrunners. He was the showrunner on 30 Rock and Kimmy Schmidt. Sam Means is the other he wrote on 30 Rock, Kimmy Schmidt and girls 5. The fall and Rise of Reggie Dinkins airs on NBC and streams the next day on Peacock because that's the new normal. Margaret, what'd you think?

Margaret H. Willison (3:40)

I loved this show so much. The only thing that slowed me down when I was watching it is that I did have to keep stopping and like looping other people into it. I'm a Carlock head. A Carlock, Yeah. And I'm locked in for Carlock. So, you know, I had a good feeling. I was optimistic. You tell me girls 5eva. I'm like, obviously I'm gonna watch all of that. That's my new personality. You tell me, football player. I' well, I'll give it an episode or 10 in this case because I certainly watched the whole season. I've watched a few episodes multiple times. And two things here I feel are exceptional. One, there is the Carlock joke density and joke success. And the other thing that really, really, really delights me about this show is Daniel Radcliffe. I've known that he had something like this in him for a long time because he's from the Carrie Fisher school of using F U money and cultural cachet from one big franchise to sort of make whatever career you want for yourself. He's done an incredible job. He's done so many cool projects. He's demonstrated that he's a very good comedy guy. But him and his commitment to a bit combined with the kind of bits Robert Carlock led writing team can come up with is just delicious.

Glen Weldon (4:58)

Interviews are like jazz.

Margaret H. Willison (5:00)

You have to improvise, feel it out.

Glen Weldon (5:03)

Like scatter Papa.

Gene Demby (5:05)

Wow.

Margaret H. Willison (5:06)

Ooh. There are some things that can't be clipped because they are physical. But his skill in delivering this material and the quality of the material. We know that he is a documentary professor. He teaches documentary filmmaking at the University of Maryland.

Glen Weldon (5:23)

Yeah.

Margaret H. Willison (5:23)

But what we don't know until he needs to send his posters back to his office is that he works at.

Glen Weldon (5:28)

You can mail my posters back to me at the University of Maryland center for Documentary, Anime and Pornography.

Margaret H. Willison (5:34)

That's a great joke. I'm dying. I'm weeping. I'm texting it to my friends. Congratulations. You have a great new show ahead of you.

Glen Weldon (5:40)

There we go. Okay, that's Margaret. Gene, you are the closest this show is ever gonna come to a sports guy.

Gene Demby (5:48)

I mean, Steven, too.

Glen Weldon (5:49)

I mean, Stephen Thompson, sure. But you are a football guy. What'd you make of this?

Gene Demby (5:54)

So real quick, do you think Daniel Radcliffe was doing his own stunts?

Glen Weldon (5:58)

That was really dope.

Gene Demby (5:59)

That was one of the notes that I made.

Margaret H. Willison (6:01)

I believe it. Of him.

Gene Demby (6:02)

He jumps over a car at one point. I was like, wait, did he jump over the car for real?

Margaret H. Willison (6:05)

Yeah, I believe it.

Gene Demby (6:06)

So I thought the show was a good hang. I don't think I was as high on it as you are, Margaret, but I really dug it. I mean, like, it's one of those. You both have commented on how joke dense it is. And every episode, at one point, I, like, cackled out loud at something. Like, I just laughed really, really hard. I was finishing up the last couple episodes last night. My wife had gone to bed, and I was like, oh, that was really loud. There was also, like, these sort of stretches, like, oh, this is Vaughn. Like, nothing sort of. Sort of stuck to me. Although, like, I have a lot of love for the cast. Like, I love Erica Alexander so much. So much. She's like one of those people who's like, why didn't she end more stuff? There's that weird. Like, Tracy Morgan has this very strange way of reading lines that, like, it's one of those things. Like.

Glen Weldon (6:46)

Absolutely.

Gene Demby (6:46)

I think we are used to it now, but it's still like, it's just so, like, weirdly, like, disconcerting sometimes. Like, it's so funny, right? It's like. It's funny because, like, if someone else said this, this would not work. Because it's like, the way that words come out of his mouth, like, that makes these things work.

Glen Weldon (7:00)

Exactly.

Gene Demby (7:01)

I devoted my whole life to entertaining you people. Are you not entertained?

Glen Weldon (7:05)

Gladiator.

Gene Demby (7:06)

Nice. The only thing this country loves more than a hero is tear one down

Glen Weldon (7:12)

Mm, Tiger Woods, y'.

Margaret H. Willison (7:13)

All.

Gene Demby (7:14)

Because it is, like, a very joke, dense show. And it felt like sometimes there were these I love a good stupid digression cutaways. Yeah, I love that kind of stuff. But it also felt like the way the season ends that nothing really kind of happens. Like, you know, and so, oh, no, we have to do this all again, and, like, we gotta get the game back all together. And I was like, I didn't mind hanging out with these people, but it didn't feel like there was, like, it was making a compelling argument for, like, dun, dun, dun. Let's come back for this, like, crew of very, like, you know, zany people, like, in their, you know, shenanigans next season. Although, like, you know, again, like, they all get moments with Shawn. Like, Bobby Moynihan is one of those people who just sort of like, he's like, just flits around the edges and makes things better. You know what I'm saying? I don't know. I liked so much of the show, and I felt like a good hang, but it didn't really stick to my ribs. You know what I'm saying?

Glen Weldon (7:58)

I get that. I get that.

Gene Demby (7:59)

But I'm very curious about how you felt.

Glen Weldon (8:00)

Well, I mean, this show could have been from the premise. You think the overarching thing is that somebody gonna be trying to wrest control of the documentary that's being made about them. We're getting a lot of documentaries now where the subject is the executive producer. And if it was about an overarching struggle, I think that might be a little less karlachian. Because, again, this is a joke engine, this show, as opposed to an arc. Right. And also, let's be real, like, if we're gonna still be doing sitcom mockumentaries in the year 2026, we should stop with the Office, Parks and Rec formula of pretending that the crew doesn't exist. And the fact that we're making the show explicitly about the interaction between the crew and the subject, I feel like that's overdue. I'm here for it.

Gene Demby (8:38)

We pull this off, people gonna see me in a whole new light. Like they did at the Pharrell's movie. Did you know he grew up Lego?

Glen Weldon (8:46)

We've all mentioned Tracy Morgan. He is such a singular comic presence. Every comic has a Tracy Morgan. Because you can. Because again, his line delivery, his whole affect is so weird. He doesn't read his lines. He declaims them. And here's the thing. Me as a comedy nerd, what fascinates me is that he will often take a breath in the middle of a punchline, which shouldn't work. Comedy is all about timing, right. It depends on rhythm. And yet he breaks that fundamental comedy rule and what you end up with. He comes off as somebody in just about every role he plays. He's somebody who comes off as clueless, but not stupid. And I can't define what that distinction is for you. If you ask me to, I will just point at Tracy Morgan because that's what I think he's doing 1000%. And Daniel Retkop can do comedy. You guys should check out a show, Miracle Workers if you haven't. He's so good on that show. He's been doing this kind of comedy. This is the kind of comedy he's made for, which is kind of high status guy. But I'm gonna take a little bit of exception with some of the things you said. I do think this show is a joke engine. I also think it's deliberately pitched to be a bit more grounded, a bit lower key than thoroughly goofy shows like 30 Rock and Kimmy Schmidt. Now, every show in the history of existence is less goofy and lower key than 30 Rock and Kimmy Schmidt.

Margaret H. Willison (10:07)

Right?

Glen Weldon (10:07)

Because those are joke engines first and character comedy second. They're cutting the joke density a bit with baking powder or. I don't know what you cut things with. But, like, if Kimmy Schmidt is Greek yogurt, this is regular yogurt. And I wasn't buying that in the beginning because pilot problems right there is clearly an attempt to give everybody a bit. Monica, the ex wife, is uptight. Brina, the fiance played by Precious Way, is an influencer who's great. What are they?

Gene Demby (10:33)

Fun?

Glen Weldon (10:34)

She's great, but that's the extent of her character at first. But as the season progresses, I vibed with it. I got into the characters because they do the smart thing that sitcoms need to do with characters is pair them off in different combinations so they can kind of bounce off each other. Yeah, you think it's gonna be about resting control as Doc, but that would be a little too much conflict, I think, and a little too. I think there'd be an edge that this show is interested in. This show plays to the heart more than that.

Margaret H. Willison (11:02)

It's not just the fake documentary thing that it's sort of biting from Abbott Elementary. I feel like it's also aiming for that type of heartwarmingness. And I think it's getting more like a heart tepidness. Like I'm rooting for all these characters, I like them, but, like, the emotional moments aren't what I'm there for. But maybe that could change with time. Like, I like all of them, and I do like that they're just like, solidly decent people across the board. You know, nobody is craven, you know, and that's especially in the later seasons of 30 Rock.

Glen Weldon (11:33)

Craig Robinson's character, his nemesis, is cartoonishly easy. But that's fun.

Gene Demby (11:37)

Craig Robinson plays like a malevolent Michael Strahan figure. It's true.

Glen Weldon (11:41)

It's true. Even though it's less joke dense. These jokes, Gene, I feel exactly the same way you do three or four times an episode for me, you get these precious diamond hard gems, these jokes that I couldn't imagine it's taken this long in human civilization to come up with because they feel like they've always been there. They've just been discovered. So the jokes are one thing. The other thing that brought me back every time, even when I, you know, we were getting some fakey, emotional scenes that weren't really doing it for me. Then Bobby Moynihan's Rusty would show up. Now Reggie lets me live in his basement, you know, best friend stuff. I also run all of his social media. We went viral last week because I had a rash on my neck and a bunch of nurses reached out. And I think he is where I keyed in the most because he strikes me as the kind of the vestigial tale of 30 Rock because, you know, he's giving you so much more than what's on the page. He has written pathetic and sad and one handsome that, but he's just too insanely funny and charismatic. So, I mean, I think in the early going, some of the are hitting their marks delivering these lines, and these are very quick scripts, and so you have to kind of. You want to hit your marks and deliver the lines. But Moynihan is just in his element here. I want to pelt that guy with Emmys. I think this guy is doing exactly what you need to do in this situation.

Gene Demby (12:57)

I think about, like, Bobby Moynihan as this dude who's always done that thing. The very, very funny Tom Hanks skit from snl.

Margaret H. Willison (13:04)

David S. Pumpkins.

Gene Demby (13:05)

Yeah, the very funny David S. Pumpkins sketch. Glenn just made a face. This is a ridiculous sketch.

Margaret H. Willison (13:09)

Yes.

Gene Demby (13:10)

And so much of that sketch works because Bobby Moynihan is just making stupid faces in the background and just like, like, like, it's just very weird.

Margaret H. Willison (13:20)

And like, you think that works because of Tom Hanks? But it works because of Bobby, because

Gene Demby (13:23)

of Bobby Mohey, because like Bobby Moynihan literally on the edges of the screen. And like one of the things, like just to go back to Tracy Morgan again is like, I just remember when he first popped up, like he was, you know, he's been around for a minute, but like even way back in the day on Martin, like, he was, he played Hustle man. His job was to come in and say completely outlandish stuff. And it was hilarious. And it's weird to see how that's evolved as he's gotten older. Cause at first when he first got the snl, I was like, is he in on the. It almost felt like sometimes he maybe was being laughed at and maybe wasn't in on the joke that he was being laughed at. And now it's very clear that he has sort of complete control of this thing that he's doing. This sort of very off kilter thing that he's doing that we're very used to. And so even in the early parts of 30 Rock, it's like, is he the butt of the joke here? And does he know that he's the

Glen Weldon (14:08)

butt of the joke?

Gene Demby (14:08)

It was like very. This sort of uncomfortable thing place where he's living. And that is not. He's evolved to the point where it seems like that tension is someplace that he's very comfortable. Like, to your point, Glenn, he's clueless, but not dumb, you know. Yeah, it's a very hard place to live.

Margaret H. Willison (14:20)

You know, I would clip a joke here, which is Arthur Esthoven asking him, does he know what documentary means.

Glen Weldon (14:27)

Reggie, you know what the word documentary means, right?

Gene Demby (14:30)

Well, I assume it's from the Latin word documentum, meaning lesson or instruction. I took Latin in college cause I thought it would help me meet Dominican chicks. But then I liked it.

Glen Weldon (14:40)

Yeah, that was so funny. That's a great line. This is one of those jokes, that's one of those diamond heart jokes. Like, why hasn't anybody made that joke?

Margaret H. Willison (14:46)

It is very special to be able to deliver all parts of that joke and have every bit of it feel equally plausible. Like, yes, you would think Latin would help you pick up Dominican chicks, but you would come to love it because you have genuine intellectual curiosity. And you know, 40 years later, he'd still remember it.

Glen Weldon (15:05)

Yeah, I mean, him knowing Latin is a runner. Turns out to be a runner that comes up in the show. But he's called upon to do something he hasn't really been called upon to do in like 30 rock. I mean, like he has to act, he has to be in a scene with another actor. And so the chemistry between Morgan and Radcliffe, that's what the show is built around. I'll be honest, I didn't always feel it. They're coming from two very different places, comedically and theatrically, I guess, which is the hook. But I sometimes feel like when they're not firing off jokes and they just both need to be present in a scene together. I don't know if I always felt it. Was it there for you.

Margaret H. Willison (15:40)

No, I think that's true. I would agree. I think it wasn't a distraction for me. But when I compare his dynamic with Arthur S. Tobin to his dynamic with the other actors on the show, like he's got such a natural way with Brina, precious way. The dynamic with him and Erika Alexander is so good and well established. But yeah, there's a little bit less connection.

Glen Weldon (16:03)

Yeah. But that's the point, right? I can't fault it.

Gene Demby (16:05)

Sure.

Margaret H. Willison (16:06)

Yeah. I just hope Robert Carlock's bid here for sort of like broadly network appealing show that still has jokes for me and Glen and Jean in it. I really wish it's success. Cause I would love to see this continue.

Glen Weldon (16:22)

And also because so much of the show is based on what's happened in the past. We do get cutaways to the past and we do. There is a wig budget, thank God. And there is a pretty solid wig budget in this show. And there's stupid visual jokes, but they always get me. I'm a simple man and they always get me.

Margaret H. Willison (16:40)

I think it is very impressive that all three of us agree we laughed aloud at this show while watching it alone.

Glen Weldon (16:46)

That's true.

Gene Demby (16:47)

Absolutely.

Glen Weldon (16:48)

Well, we want to know what you think about the fall and rise of Reggie Dinkins. You heard us. We're on board. Find us at facebook.com regent pchhh that brings us to the end of our show. Margaret H. Willison, Gene Demby, thank you so much for being here.

Margaret H. Willison (16:59)

Thanks for having me, Glenn.

Gene Demby (17:01)

Appreciate you.

Glen Weldon (17:01)

Of course. And just a reminder that signing up for Pop Culture Happy Hour plus is a great way to support our show on public radio. And you get to listen to all of our episodes sponsor free. So please find out more at plus.NPR.org happyar or visit the link in our show notes. This episode was produced by Liz Metzger and Mike Catsep and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. And hello Kamin provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. I'm Glenn. Weldon and we'll see you all next time.

Margaret H. Willison (17:32)

NPR News. Now is your podcast source for updates every hour on the US Military action in Iran. President Trump calls it a war and says the goal is regime change. He also says US Casualties are possible, with news changing rapidly. Listen to NPR News now. New episodes at the top of every hour on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

NPR Sponsor Announcer (17:55)

With the rise of prediction markets, you can bet on anything from weather to what President Trump will say in his next press conference.

Glen Weldon (18:02)

I'm not a fan of Trump, though

Margaret H. Willison (18:04)

I do spend most of my day listening to him and tracking what he's

NPR Sponsor Announcer (18:07)

doing on the Sunday Story, who's winning big on these apps and who's losing? The Sunday Story from the up first podcast. Listen now on the NPR app.

Margaret H. Willison (18:19)

Hey, it's Tonya Moseley, co host of Fresh air. Don't miss my interview with actor Kate Hudson. We talk about her music career, motherhood and, of course, her breakout role.

NPR Sponsor Announcer (18:30)

Penny Lane, man, show some respect.

Margaret H. Willison (18:32)

You can find my interview on the FRESH AIR podcast.