Guest Speaker (4:14)

That is a lot, and that is.

Eric Deggans (4:16)

A lot, man, what can you do? How did you do with this season?

Guest Speaker (4:20)

Well, you know, I tried to resist folks who were sort of knee jerk critical of it, and, you know, this is so much worse. You know, I wanted to give the storytellers time to figure out what kind of story they wanted to tell. I will say in the end, I enjoyed this less than the first season. And I think part of it is because first of all, the whole season feels like a prologue to me. It feels like it's working up to a second stage of the story where they basically shifted the protagonist from Joel and Ellie to Ellie and Abby. To do that, they had to spend a whole season on this really dark journey where Ellie is pursuing vengeance. Joel is paying the ultimate price for the lies that he told and, you know, the really brutal actions that he took at the end of the first season. And it's all about lies and wounds and the price of vengeance. And by the time we get to the end of the season, Abby's paid the price because all her friends are dead. And Ellie's paid the price because some of her friends are dead. She Might be shot. Who knows what happened? When I was watching the original screeners, you know, originally, they gave us access to all of them. I thought there was another episode coming after Abby has a gun trained on Ellie, and then it goes to black, and you hear a gunshot. So I'm left feeling very conflicted and wishing that perhaps they had made more episodes and not made this feel so much like, hey, we're gonna spend a whole season working up to a completely different story.

Eric Deggans (5:57)

Yeah, if I can make this comparison. It felt to me in part, like not a season, but half a season, much like the most recent season of the Bear did. I had the same reaction to that season of the Bear. It didn't feel, you know, a season to me, should have some resolutions and some things continuing. I think in both of these cases, kind of, you don't get much of any resolution to anything. You really get only things continuing, which to me means you're not done with your season yet. So I tend to share that feeling as well. And I will freely admit I have not played the second game, but I did play all the way through the first game, which, for me, very unusual. It had reached me that Joel died early in the second one, as he does in this season. I lost interest in the game because my interest was the relationship between Joel and Ellie and that kind of partnership and bond and their effort to survive. And in all likelihood, if I hadn't been doing it for work, I don't think I would have watched this season of the show either, for the same reason. To me, the effectiveness of the first season was partly based on the fact that they seemed to recognize that a game and a TV show have different narrative needs. You can't just translate the game into a TV show. It needs different things. It needs certain things to be stressed in a way that will give people something to watch. And I felt a little bit like coming into the second season, that relationship that I keyed into so much and that Pedro Pascal performance, as much as I understand the whole, like, well, things change, and now we're going to move on, and there's a whole other thing. And isn't Bella Ramsey also a gifted performer? Of course, of course, of course, of course. Of course. However, that relationship was my emotional hook into the show. You know, as, you know, they came in in that sixth episode and brought flashbacks in so that you spent a bunch more time with Joel and Ellie, which to me, just made me feel even more like this is what I wanted out of this show. And it doesn't really to me, work without that relationship nearly as well.

Guest Speaker (8:10)

Also, in the first season of the the Last of Us, because of the structure of the story, you have these two people who are going across the country, and they're dropped in different environments as they go. It was able to break the format of your typical apocalyptic zombie drama because they could just stick them in different environments with a different cast of characters, and all of a sudden, you've got a whole nother cool story. Of course, the story with Nick Offerman was a perfect example. This was much more like the typical zombie dramas that we've already seen from the Walking Dead et al, where they're stuck in one place. They have the same cast of characters through the whole season. And so we're stuck narratively, which was also a problem. And then finally, to make all of this work, Ellie has to become a very unsympathetic character. Not only is the story mostly falling on her through the season, but she has to be impulsive. She has to reject obvious overtures from Joel, who is a guy who does not show his emotions. So, you know, the fact that he, like, built a guitar for her, the fact that he's trying to talk to her about his emotions, that's a huge thing for him. And she's a teenager who's so wrapped up in her emotions, she can't really see what he's doing. And what was great about that sixth episode was it explained why Joel is the protector he is. There is a love that a parent has for a child, surrogate or not, that kids never understand, particularly when you've been a parent, like I have. I was just like, oh, man. That's one reason why that episode's so special, too. It's not just that we get Joel again. We get some real insight into his character, into what it's saying about life, what it's saying about being a parent versus being a kid, and how that's affected these two characters that we love so much. And then we realize that Ellie might wind up being a parent herself because she's involved with a woman who's pregnant. So all of that was wonderful. But unfortunately, so much of the other stuff that surrounded, it was just getting us there.

Eric Deggans (10:17)

Yeah.

Guest Speaker (10:18)

And, man, there's too many episodes of getting us there and not enough of really impactful storytelling.

Eric Deggans (10:24)

Yeah. I will also say, like, it's no reflection, I think, on either one of the actors, but I think the story between Ellie and Darling and Dina, they clearly want Ellie's bond with Dina to play sort of the role that Ellie's bond with Joel did, in that it gives her kind of the person that she's the most committed to and the most close to. I think Dina is unfortunately not terribly developed beyond her relationship with Ellie. And then every story that involves women and girls as heroes does not ultimately have to come down to somebody being pregnant and somebody wanting a baby. And I felt like, particularly with Ellie, nothing about Ellie before this suggested to me that she was eager to become a 19 year old parent. It feels a little easy to me to suddenly make everything. And then there's also this confrontation with this woman that Ellie kills who turns out to be pregnant. And it's like I feel like I would have gotten more out of seeing Ellie and Joel work that out between themselves while he was alive, as opposed to, you know, they have this conversation where he finally fesses up to what he did. She's really hurt. She says, I don't know if I can forgive you, but I want to try to forgive you. They're pretty much immediately separated and he dies. You know, you sort of have her working through all of this after his death. And obviously that's affecting for all the reasons that you mentioned about her kind of trying to understand what his parental love for her felt like. But I felt cheated out of them kind of working through that while he was alive. He could have done it a different way. And do you know how on Last of Us, very often you'll start a new scene and it'll be like a kind of an over the shoulder shot of Ellie and somebody, usually Ellie and somebody walking up to a new environment. It's a new building, it's a new alley, it's a new creepy house that is all falling down. Those are all essentially direct lifts from the game. Because the way the game works, you go into that new setting and it's like, okay, I gotta survive this new environment and get to the other side of it. And I know that I can eventually, right? If I do it enough times, which sometimes with that game I play, which.

Guest Speaker (12:44)

Sometimes it takes an awful lot.

Eric Deggans (12:45)

Oh, Eric, you would not believe how many times I died in that game. But if you're not playing and you're just watching, it needs a different approach to kind of storytelling mechanics. The idea that Joel has to die so that we can go into this thing of revenge. It's entirely possible that the other piece of this is like, I just don't have the fortitude right now for a story that is this bleak about humanity. Because the first season has that, like, Tiny, tiny ember of hope, both from their relationship and from, like, maybe somehow there's a way to down the path of getting a cure. And maybe, you know, tiny, tiny little bit of hope this season is just like, nope, no hope, just revenge. And it's like, all right.

Guest Speaker (13:33)

What I would say is, number one, that might be the drawback of having the person who designed the game be intimately involved in creating the TV show. Because Neil Druckmann, who famously developed the video game, is co creator of the series. And so, you know, you have somebody who's translating this story, and maybe that's one reason why they stuck with it. I will also say, though, that if they hadn't, then people would have been speculating about when are they gonna kill Joel.

Eric Deggans (14:02)

Of course that is true.

Guest Speaker (14:03)

And it might have been better for them to just do it when it happens in the game so that they avoid all of that. And I certainly understand that. But it seems to me what they were also trying to do was make Ellie experience shades of Joel.

Eric Deggans (14:17)

Sure. Yes.

Guest Speaker (14:17)

When we see her try to step up and protect this kid that the soldiers in Seattle kind of capture, that's a Joel flash.

Eric Deggans (14:26)

Right.

Guest Speaker (14:27)

And, you know, they're able to. For example, in Catherine Oharas character, Gale, those are some real important notes that she hits where we meet her at the beginning of the second season, she hates Joel. We have a sense of why she hates him, but we don't really find out why she hates him until the sixth episode. And it's amazing. It's revelatory. It makes sense for her character. It accomplishes all those things. But she feels like a character. Yeah, Dina doesn't feel like a character. Dina feels like an excuse for Joel to talk about his efforts as a parent and then an excuse for Ellie to act as a protector.

Eric Deggans (15:04)

I love that Catherine o' Hara performance. And I was so delighted to see her getting to play more drama. And not just more drama, but also drier comedy. Because so often what she's so good at is comedy that is so broad, you can't believe she's getting away with it. Right. The Schitt's Creek thing and some of that. Whereas there's also some really good, just dry, dry humor in her line deliveries here. And I was delighted by that. That was one of the things I liked the best about the season, I think.

Guest Speaker (15:33)

Let's just take a second and give flowers to somebody whose career included Beetlejuice, Home Alone, Schitt's Creek, the Last of Us, and the studio. Come on. That's Amazing.

Eric Deggans (15:47)

Yes. Yes. I mean, she is on fire at the moment, so good for her. I also think that that last episode suggests, and I've heard some speculation about this, that the next season is going to shift again and actually be all about Abby and the Abby story in a game. I get it. Because you, as the person who's playing the game, can shift from one character to another, and ultimately you are kind of taking on the mantle of those characters in some cases. But on a TV show, I don't want to get to the end of a season and have them just kind of throw the characters that I've been watching out the window in favor of following new ones. Unless I really feel like that character has had all the possible opportunities to finish their whole story. At least, you know, I can say in favor of the loss of Joel, which I didn't respond to creatively, but in favor of that choice, I can at least say they did continue, with the exception of the flashback episode that I thought was very effective, they did continue to follow the story forward. I think it's another entire thing to say, well, this person's eventually going to cross paths with Ellie again. So we have Abby. Let's go back and see what Abby was doing. I don't care. I don't care what Tony.

Guest Speaker (16:59)

Well, it raises the stakes for the storytellers. Those stories have to be kind of amazing to make us care about that. And Jeffrey Wright is a part of that story, so it's possible.

Eric Deggans (17:10)

Yes. Bring in Jeffrey Wright, and I will give your story that I don't care about the best possible.

Guest Speaker (17:15)

That's right. I'll keep an open mind and I'll watch at least the first two episodes.

Eric Deggans (17:20)

Yeah. So is there anything else that we should talk about?

Guest Speaker (17:24)

One thing that I did think was kind of interesting, and maybe I'm overreading this, but, you know, we're going through what we're going through as a country right now. There are a lot of TV shows out there that are making some really bold statements against authoritarianism. The Handmaid's Tale and Andor. I also think the Last of Us is doing that in a more subtle way where the collective that runs Jackson is sort of shown to be kind of the most idyllic setup you can have, and they are contrasted by this brutal militia that's run by Jeffrey Wright's character. So it is kind of interesting to see that in a weird way, this season of the Last of Us fits our times. I get that in a way that maybe we wouldn't Hope it would, but it kind of does.

Eric Deggans (18:09)

I get that. The other thing, you know, we were talking about Ellie sort of becoming driven by revenge. And the other thing that Ellie does in this season is sort of turn her back on that idea of communal decision making and everyone having a voice and deciding what's best to do. She gets together with the community, and they have a vote about whether to essentially go on this vengeance trip and chase Abby and try to kill Abby in really just outright revenge for killing Joel. There's not really any sense that that's necessary for the safety of the community. It's just revenge. The community says no, and Ellie does it anyway. So I think part of what you're saying may also be related to the fact that Ellie's real turn to darkness partly involves deciding that she's gonna do whatever she wants for her own desire for blood, as opposed to listening to what everyone in her community wants and being willing to be part of something larger than herself, even if it means sometimes subverting what you personally wanna do with your anger.

Guest Speaker (19:16)

Yeah. And in a weird way, that's how she mirrors Joel, too, because Joel has to be reminded that the collective is about taking care of people who need their help, even when it might not seem like the wisest thing to do in the moment. And he resists that too.

Eric Deggans (19:32)

Right. There are a couple of conversations where Ellie suggests that she feels that Joel's decision to kill everybody and therefore prevent them from killing her to make a cure, has deprived her life of meaning. And there's also something sort of very dark about this very young person deciding that the only way her life can have meaning is if she sort of is sacrificed in some way. So I think there is definitely some very interesting stuff under here, exactly as you're saying about the relationship between individuals and communities and the good of yourself versus the good of the group and the way that the good of yourself can be. Either I want to save someone like it was for Joel, or I want to kill someone because I'm so very angry as it is for Ellie.

Guest Speaker (20:26)

Her being angry at Joel for saving her is another way of being selfish, because she thinks I finally have a chance to matter. And you took that away from me, not understanding that not only Joel loves her, but, you know, now she's in a community where a bunch of people love her and they all would have been deprived of that.

Eric Deggans (20:48)

Right.

Guest Speaker (20:48)

So I do like the way the show makes complex questions and answers out of these notions. It's not simple that, you know, certain kinds of violence bring negative consequences and other kinds of violence. Don't like we see in so many of the shows, they have stuck to the idea that no matter when you you're violent, you're racking up a tab and eventually you gotta pay.

Eric Deggans (21:13)

I think that's right. As I've talked to you about this, I'm very glad I did because as I have talked to you about this, I feel like I'm coming much more around to what you're saying, which is there is enough in this season that I potentially can care about. I just think it's padded out with too much stuff that I don't care about. Well, I don't really appreciate you making me feel like I do probably want to watch another season of this, even though it makes me feel so incredibly bleak. But as always, I appreciate your insight.

Guest Speaker (21:39)

Thank you. That's what geeks do.

Eric Deggans (21:43)

All right, we want to know what you think about the Last of us, season two. Find us@facebook.com PCHH that brings us to the end of our show. Eric Deggans, thank you so much for being here. It's always good to see you, bud.

Guest Speaker (21:52)

Oh, thank you so much for having me. And now you've inspired me to try and play the game again.

Eric Deggans (21:57)

Yeah, listen, take a shot. Take a shot. Like I said, not usually my thing.

Guest Speaker (22:00)

I'm feeling I'm going to die a couple times. This, that'll be it. But anyway.

Eric Deggans (22:03)

Oh, you're going to die hundreds of times. It'll be great. One last thing before we go. This year marks the 30th anniversary of Toy Story, which is Pixar's first feature. So we are going to be doing a power ranking of the best Pixar films and we need your help. What do you think are the best Pixar movies? We'll have a link to a poll in our episode notes, so vote now. This episode is produced by Mike Katsif and Hafsa Fathoma and edited by our showrunners, Jessica Reedy. Hello. Come in. Provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. I'm Linda Holmes and we'll see you all next time.

Linda Holmes (22:42)

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