Brittany Luce (3:39)

I'm really liking this season. First because of the way the show is structured. Obviously, everything is like a slow burn. We're only getting character developments and story developments one hour at a time. And as much as I love watching weekly, I am am always eager to see how this story is going to develop. You know, obviously last season had the Pitfest shooting, which was this, like, huge mass casualty event that like, threw the entire hospital into a tailspin and tested everyone and pushed them to their limits. I think I had been bracing myself for some sort of similar event this season. I think it's really smart the show decided to kind of like, take a left and instead kind of tug at all of the stray threads in the hospital among all of the staff. Obviously, like, like the lack of funding for healthcare across the board in this country. And also too, all of these patients that have found themselves in impossible situations due to what's really a healthcare crisis in this country. It really felt more like probably closer to an average day minus the whole, like, you know, computer outage. But it really kind of like showed you just where everyone precisely is at emotionally. And I really enjoyed that. I am really impressed with just the level of character work they're able to accomplish by only showing one day at a time. And that's a testament to the writing and to the direct. But I've really, really been enjoying this season and I like the fact that they did something different than last season.

Roxanna Haddadi (5:04)

Yeah.

Linda Holmes (5:04)

Roxanna, you have a piece in Vulture where You talk about some of the kind of the. I don't know if I would call them concerns, but kind of the trade offs between focusing on kind of this crisis that Robbie's having and dealing with all of the other characters. Talk a little bit about where you're sitting right now about this season.

Roxanna Haddadi (5:21)

Yeah, I'm slightly more mixed. I started off very pro because it's hard not to be pro with this show given, like everything Britney said about the structure and how intentional every hour is the fluidity of moving from one case to another. I mean, all the stuff that the show was very good at in season one is still here in season two. But what is not working for me is this is a season very much about burnout overall. But I think it is so Robbie focused in that perspective that you are getting a phenomenal performance from Noah Wiley. Right. Like, I cannot tell you how many gifs are just on my social media feeds of like, look at how Noah Wylie walks and the interiority that he's bringing to Dr. Robbie. So I think it is a phenomenal performance. Again, I would be shocked if this man does not win another Emmy for this. But I think the trade off is. I feel like I actually know a lot of the secondary characters a little bit less than I did in season one. In particular, someone like Dr. Mohan, who is played by Supriya Ganesh, who I think gets this mommy issues storyline a little bit out of nowhere and sort of is just an opportunity for her to be yelled at by Dr. Robbie. And it's a moment where it's like, oh, I see how this burnout is affecting Dr. Robbie. I understand what he's going through. I don't really know what Mohan is going through. I don't feel like the show is as comfortable sometimes in the perspective of its secondary characters. And I think you also see that a lot with a character like Dr. Baran Al Hashimi, who is new to this season and who was presented in the beginning as this foil to Dr. Robbie.

Linda Holmes (7:14)

One little thing that I a big impact with staff and patients alike is

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if we launched a campaign to eradicate

Linda Holmes (7:20)

referring to this wonderful department as the pimps.

Brittany Luce (7:24)

Really.

Linda Holmes (7:25)

I know you think it's silly and petty.

Brittany Luce (7:27)

No, I think it's just kind of endearing. Pretty damn accurate.

Roxanna Haddadi (7:30)

And there's a mystery about her that has sort of hung over the entire season and I'm not sure that is working either. This question of like a season long mystery stories, I don't think it's doing the character much justice. Although Sepa Dehmoufi's performance is so good. I'm sort of like, I want to know more about her rather than knowing more and more and more about Robbie's self destructive tendencies. So I just think the show is like slightly out of balance at this point in season two. I find myself thinking like, I got it, like I got what Robbie is going through. I'd like to know what more of these other characters are going through.

Linda Holmes (8:12)

Yeah, I get that my feeling about somebody like Mohan has been. I feel like the performance there is so strong that I have felt like you can really see how she is being shut down by the experience of working with him. Yeah, I think you're probably right. It's not made as explicit as perhaps it could be. But I think she is the character through whom they have been the most emphatic about how his behavior has changed and how sort of caustic it is for other people. He was so nasty to her when he first kind of reprimanded her about having basically a panic attack.

Brittany Luce (8:54)

Wait a minute. Is this a panic attack because of your mommy issues?

Linda Holmes (8:58)

What?

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No.

Brittany Luce (8:59)

Jesus. Do you need to go home? You should go home.

Linda Holmes (9:02)

No, I'm fine.

Roxanna Haddadi (9:02)

I don't need the liability.

Brittany Luce (9:04)

Go home.

Linda Holmes (9:04)

And I think for the rest of the day you do see how she's just gradually shutting down and not everybody is going to necessarily have a big response to that or a response that's easy to put in a scene where she would talk about all of her feelings. Some people, I think you just see a shutdown. In fairness to. Absolutely. To your point, that doesn't mean that it's as effective as it would be if they maybe put more time into it or if they put more emphasis on it. But I have felt like the toxic effects of kind of his. What his current style is, have affected everybody. Right. I. You can also see it very clearly with Javati. She's kind of just losing her confidence and losing her ability to feel good about her work. Which is not necessarily entirely because of Robbie, but it's partly because of Robbie. And I kind of see him having these negative effects on other people. Which is not to say you're not right that they could be making the show more about that and spending more time. I will say, as to Dr. Al Hashimi, I liked the fact that at the beginning for sure, you get that feeling of like, oh, she's gonna be the. And you know, she wants to use AI and she's got all these other. But I did feel like pretty quickly they Established that she has some strengths that Robbie doesn't have and that she's actually not necessarily wrong about everything that she came in talking about. And I think the storyline about Santos being so behind on her charting and just suffering all day long. There are many things I don't like AI for. But when you sort of hear her say it would allow, if we used it for charting, it would allow doctors to spend more time with patients. I'm not necessarily saying I agree with that, but I think that I appreciate them bringing that out.

Roxanna Haddadi (10:53)

You know, all I was going to say is that, you know, like, I have relatives who work in the medical field and for them, that storyline is interesting because a lot of them already do use AI. Yeah. And so it's interesting to see it sort of treated with a little bit of like, not ambiguity in this season. But to your point, Linda, this question of like, well, you can use it for these very, very, very specific things and no one is saying it's 100% accurate, but if you're spending hours working on your paperwork, then yeah, maybe it would be more effective for you to use AI. So it was interesting because I was very anti AI in this storyline. And then I talked to some of my relatives who basically just shrugged at me and were like, oh, yeah, we're all using AI, right?

Linda Holmes (11:37)

Right.

Brittany Luce (11:38)

I loved the addition of Dr. Alhashmi this season. I mean, obviously Stephan and Muafi's like, performance is incredible. I liked her from the beginning. The thing I liked about her is she came into shoes about her business. To Linda's point, it was clear partway through at least the first season that Robbie's approach wasn't working. And I definitely see your point, Roxanna, that like, that kind of has come at the expense of kind of learning more about the other characters. I definitely have wanted a little bit more from that character, especially. Cause like, listen, getting like sassed by a 50 something year old white man with emotional issues at work.

Roxanna Haddadi (12:15)

Been there.

Linda Holmes (12:17)

And I think I liked the fact that they sort of showed how she. It's not a good thing, but she sort of read the situation as like, I'm gonna eat a certain amount of this until I get myself established and then I'm not going to. Do you know what I mean? I think she came in with like, I'm gonna let him talk to me in a way that I do not like because it is not in my interests to necessarily assert myself at every point. Again, I am not saying it is a good thing that she feels like she's in this position. But it felt truthful to me that she felt like, I'm gonna have to pick my battles from the beginning because he is sort of talking down to her in this way. But over the course of the day, he does figure out that she's a good doctor. And at the very least, he understands that. Although he disagrees with her about a bunch of things, she's good with patients and makes a lot of good decisions about patients.

Brittany Luce (13:10)

That is, though, another reason why I really like the presence of Dr. Alhashmi. It's like, it's clear that Ravi's approach wasn't working from a leadership perspective. Clearly, it wasn't working as far as, like, the way that the entire team interacted with each other and him. But having Dr. Alhashmi there, I mean, especially for Dr. Mohan, right, where we have this person who has, like, they already have a rapport, they already have a relationship. Dr. Mohan and Dr. Alhashmi, there's, like, a kinship there also, like, a mutual respect that feels like it's definitely missing from not just, like, Dr. Mohan's relationship with Dr. Ravi, but Dr. Ravi's relationship with a lot of other people in the er. But, yeah, I like that she came in and she was like this ER cowboy stuff. We're not doing this anymore. I like to see a woman of color coming in and putting in the crackdown, So I enjoyed that. What I'm hoping, though, is that, like, to your point, Roxanna, because this season has been so Robbie focused, I'm hoping that in the next season, and obviously we have to see how this one shapes up, but I'm hoping that in the next season that a Dr. Al Hashimi, like, sticks around and that also that she can have a greater focus in the story. Because clearly, as a performer, I mean, Muafi can handle it. And I would love to see more of what her influence in the ER could be. I mean, obviously, you know, Robbie is like the sun in this whole universe. Seeing how he relates to everybody else sort and how he sets that tone, it explains the entire environment, and it is important. But when we talk about balance, Roxanna, I would love to see another sort of person in leadership within the structure of the setting of the hospital, but also within the structure of the show. I would love to see somebody sort of shoulder some of that off of Rabinovitch so that we can learn more about all of the other, like, secondary characters through seeing them develop a relationship with somebody who has a very different approach.

Linda Holmes (15:04)

Yeah, I agree. I Think one of the things that they've done a really good job with in Robbie's relationship with Dana in particular, is that I think she is one of the people who has, you know. You know that she really loves him. You know that she really is deeply, deeply close to him, cares about him when he is thinking clearly. He trusts her, and he knows how good she is. But you see her running up against this, like, why are you. On the one hand, you're so burnt out, but on the other hand, you don't want to trust anybody else to do anything. And so they get into these conversations about essentially martyrdom that I think are badly needed in this kind of setting. Because the issue with Robbie, I think I will say as a baseline, I so admire that they have made him act like such a jerk so much of this season. I don't know if I can remember a time when a show has set somebody up so clearly to be such an admirable character in one season and the next season been like, he is the problem, right? Despite the fact that he has all this trauma, he has all these issues. He's at least a big part of the problem for everybody else, and he's handling almost all of these situations wrong. And I think they're willing to be really, I think, nuanced about. Some of this is trauma, and some of this is too much is expected of him because of the way the hospital works and the way the system works. But also some of it is he needs to work through his own stuff and kind of refuses to do that. Beyond. It's so common with shows like this to be like, you hit rock bottom. You had your sobbing fit. Now you're gonna turn everything around and go to therapy and be all better, right? And so last season, everything goes toward this incredible scene where he has this breakdown, right? And it's kind of instantly your Emmy scene. I don't know if there's anything comparable in this season that's like, this is instantly your Emmy scene. Cause so much more of it is inward. So much more of it is him not dealing with his stuff. So I admire the way that in his relationship with Dana, she is fed up with him. She loves him, and she is fed up with him.

Brittany Luce (17:23)

You think I'm on edge.

Linda Holmes (17:25)

Where's your shaman, Samira? They're McKay.

Brittany Luce (17:27)

They both need to be called out for an acceptable behavior.

Linda Holmes (17:29)

Yeah, well, you do that in private. Same place you share your thoughts about a patient's possible suicide and slam and stuff. Please, please sign out all the. That's bugging you and get out of here.

Brittany Luce (17:37)

I can't.

Linda Holmes (17:38)

Yes, you can. When either of my kids was acting like this, I gave them a timeout in their room.

Brittany Luce (17:41)

No, you're not my mother.

Linda Holmes (17:43)

Yeah.

Roxanna Haddadi (17:43)

I do think that so much of this is. I'm contractually obligated to mention Mad Men at all times. So much of it is sort of like a. Like a Don Draper, sort of like, wow, this man is brilliant. He's also maybe the worst man I've ever met. And I do think that they've done that really well in season two. And I think so many of those sort of like mentor mentee relationships with people like Langdon and Mohan have that sort of like workplace training. The person who might one day replace you and struggling with the responsibility of that. I think all of that has been done really well this season. And I also think something I will say that I admire about the show is I think it takes its time and storylines that really need that. I loved the Louis storyline this season and how that sort of was handled. I loved the going through a rape kit storyline. I thought that was something I'd never seen on television before. So, yeah, it's like I have these frustrations with the Robbie Ness of it. But still in season two, we're seeing, at least for me, rituals and process that I have never seen on television before in, like, a narratively engaging way. And I have to, like, respect and give props to that.

Linda Holmes (19:04)

Yeah, Yeah. I think I really, really liked the story with the sexual assault exam. I agree. I think that was really, really well done and such a good use of what their format is and more generally. I think the story between Dana and Emma all day long has been so good for understanding where Dana's head is and how Dana thinks about her responsibilities. Like, Dana is sort of being an excellent mentor at the same time that Robbie is being a lousy mentor, partly because she understands people are themselves fragile and some of the things that she does with Emma throughout the day to kind of make it both, yes, it's going to be trial by fire, but it's also going to be, I'm going to take care of you. I'm going to think about your well being. I'm going to encourage you to take care of yourself. I think that story's been absolutely excellent.

Roxanna Haddadi (19:58)

Did he have family?

Linda Holmes (19:59)

Everyone has family. The social worker always tries to find them. Sometimes the family loved him, tried to get them to come home. Other times the family wants. Wants nothing to do with them.

Brittany Luce (20:11)

That's sad. That's Life that is such a good counterpoint to Robbie and his leadership style. I noticed they spent a little bit more time this season kind of having these moments for Princess and Perla and Donnie. You can see that it's not just something that's coming from Dana to Emma. Like, who's this new nurse? And I love the performance by Leticia Hallard. Has this. Who's this young, fresh face, angelic looking nurse who's having kind of the day from hell. Just a really rich performance that could have easily been, I think, very sweet and. But she's managed to do something really interesting with it. But you also see it across all of the more seasoned nurses who aren't on the same level as Dana. There is a leadership, like a top down leadership that you can see across the entire nursing staff and the way that they all interact with each other.

Roxanna Haddadi (20:58)

But what I will say, which is interesting, is like something I struggled with a little bit in season one is this sense that everyone who is working in this unit is a hero. Just because I thought that it sort of gave a similar sort of treatment to each character. I do like in this season we get Monica and I hate Monica.

Linda Holmes (21:19)

So she's a. She's the clerk. Yeah, she's the clerk who comes to work during the computer outage, has these

Roxanna Haddadi (21:24)

real moments of like, I would say racism. I would say, you know, yes.

Linda Holmes (21:29)

And other unpleasantness as well.

Roxanna Haddadi (21:31)

So I do appreciate also that, like we have someone like Jesse who I think gets this fantastic nearly all off screen storyline when the ICE agents come into the hospital. And so I like again that we get someone like Jesse who is selfless and really putting himself out there to protect this undocumented woman. That there is some sprawl to the characters this season and the range of their behaviors that I'm not sure was in season one.

Brittany Luce (22:00)

Joy Kwon alone. I love Joy Kwon so much. Love Joy, played by Irene Choi. Amazing.

Linda Holmes (22:06)

What a great character.

Brittany Luce (22:07)

What a great character. I get the feeling like based upon the way the character's written, she won't return next season. But she provided such a great, like her addition felt like when you're cooking something and you're like something is missing and you add a little spice and you're like, that was it. Like she felt like the note that we needed in the chord of the show. She had a lot of dimension. I mean, I thought that the performance by the actor who played like Ogilvy, who also is in a similar position to Joy, where like they're both kind of like on their rotations. Yeah, Their students are on their rotations.

Linda Holmes (22:38)

Yeah, they're students.

Roxanna Haddadi (22:39)

Yeah. They're not doctors yet.

Brittany Luce (22:40)

I was like, girl Joy, she had boundaries, but also she had, like this. She had so many tricks up her sleeve and she was somebody where I. How do I put it? It was interesting. Like, she actually. I contrasted a lot in my mind to Dr. Mohan and that, like, they both seem, like, actually low key. They care a lot.

Linda Holmes (22:56)

Yeah.

Brittany Luce (22:57)

But I think that Dr. Mohan kind of wears that on her sleeve, on her face. Whereas, like, Joy Kwon was like, you know what?

Linda Holmes (23:03)

Yeah.

Brittany Luce (23:03)

She kind of, like, seemed like she was a little bit more self preserving. I mean, there's a lot of different ways you could take that. I think toward the beginning of the season, a lot of viewers were like, yo, who is this woman and why is she so rude? Like, why does she seem like she doesn't care what happens to anybody in the hospital? To me, what she was showing was like a totally different kind of, I don't know, emotional management, as opposed to being totally tapped out, like someone like Robbie or kind of like totally out of control in a certain way. At first, I kind of read her as someone who didn't care, and then I realized I'm like, oh, she cares immensely, but she is kind of determined not to let whatever this place is kind of like take her down. And I really, really, really enjoyed that performance.

Linda Holmes (23:42)

Yeah. I also want to say a kind word about where they went with Mel King this season, played by Taylor Dearden. I think Mel started a little bit slow this season, and it wasn't clear whether she had much of a story. But I think, like, the discovery this season that Mel is also building her identity around her caregiving for her sister, and that that is something she's gonna have to deal with. That she's not. 100%. It's not. She's a caregiver, therefore, she's completely heroic in that regard. She's realizing that she also gets something from that and that as Becca's independence increases, Mel is going to have to think carefully about, you know, how she fits into that. And I have found that story to be very effective. Well, the Pit, as we said, is streaming on HBO Max. That brings us to the end of our show. Brittany Luce, Roxanna Haddadi, thank you so much for being here.

Roxanna Haddadi (24:35)

Thank you.

Linda Holmes (24:35)

Thank you. This episode is produced by Hafsa Fathoma and Mike Katsif. It was edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. Hello. Come in. Provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. If you're not already following the show, do that right now. I'm Linda Holmes. We will see you all next time.

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