Linda Holmes (3:12)

Mm, mm, mm. I hear that. All right, Trevel, what did you think?

Trevel Anderson (3:16)

So I'm one of those people who didn't know the source. Okay. Originally speaking, saw the first movie, fell in love, then, you know, familiarized myself with what to expect in this second movie. Waylon, I don't think it's just you. I think everyone is like, the second half of the musical is less great than the first.

Waylon Wong (3:45)

Yeah.

Trevel Anderson (3:45)

But I really enjoyed Wicked for Good. I've seen it three times, you all. Why, I do not know, but I really enjoyed it. I do agree with Waylon that it justifies itself, but I think what I really liked the most is one thing you can do, or a lot of things that you can do in film with this narrative you can't do on stage. And this is a movie. Musical lovers movie, as the first one was as well.

Waylon Wong (4:17)

Yeah, for sure.

Linda Holmes (4:18)

I think that's true. Aisha, you were also on the panel for the first Wicked, which I think you also liked. What did you think about this one?

Aisha Harris (4:25)

I think it's good enough.

Trevel Anderson (4:27)

Wicked. Good enough.

Waylon Wong (4:28)

Wicked for good. For good enough.

Aisha Harris (4:32)

Yeah. I was like, very pleasantly surprised by the first part one of Wicked, in part because I have been a Wicked fan since it came out on Broadway. And so having this very, very long gestating project, I guess I kind of understood or was trying to prime myself for being disappointed by the first act. And I loved it. And this one, I think I have to slightly disagree. I don't think it really justifies making this two different movies. I could see a path for condensing it to maybe like one 3 hour long movie instead of like 4 plus or really close to 5 hours. I guess this is. And we can talk about the new songs that were added. Ooh, they were rough for me. Of course, Glinda and Elphaba each get their own songs because we can't give one without the other.

Trevel Anderson (5:19)

Of course not.

Aisha Harris (5:20)

Still, the high parts are high for good. The song. I was on the verge of tears.

Linda Holmes (5:25)

The verge, merely the verge. I don't.

Waylon Wong (5:27)

I had already been crying for half.

Linda Holmes (5:29)

An hour by the time.

Aisha Harris (5:30)

I don't cry very easily in movies, unless it's like, you know, Mufasa dying or something. So it was like that. It moved me so much. And I think the performances here, they still transcend whatever sort of misgivings I have about the plotting and plotting and then plotting of the plot sometimes. So, yeah, it was good enough. I still enjoyed myself. But I don't think it's quite as good as part one, which.

Trevel Anderson (5:53)

Fair.

Linda Holmes (5:54)

Yeah, I get that. You know, I really enjoyed this. I came into it somewhat skeptical. Like Trevel, I was not a big follower of this musical. The timing was just not right. The day that the guy that I was dating and I tried to get musicals tickets, we got Avenue Q instead.

Aisha Harris (6:09)

You know what I mean? So it's like, I love Avenue Q.

Linda Holmes (6:11)

I just missed it. You know what I mean?

Aisha Harris (6:13)

Yeah.

Linda Holmes (6:13)

So I never attached to it. But I think this half, although it is true that the first half is kind of more, I think, maybe more fun. It's also. You have your people who think the emotional pinnacle of this show is defying gravity. And then you have your people who think the emotional pinnacle of this show is for good. And I am in the second category. So to me, that scene between Elphaba and Glinda at the end of this film is worth the whole thing to me, even if I hadn't enjoyed the rest of it, which I mostly did. To me, that scene, that sequence is worth the whole thing. And I wanna say, you know, Cynthia Erivo is a powerhouse. I always expect her to be a powerhouse. I feel like Ariana Grande in this one finds her way a little more into her own version of Glinda in the first movie. I really felt like I was watching a Kristin Chenoweth impression a lot of the time in the diction and the phrasing and stuff like that. I feel like she makes her way into a little more of a. I mean, it's still Glinda, who's very Glinda, but, like, I felt a little more of her and I thought she was good. I like her added song better than the Elphaba added song.

Aisha Harris (7:32)

I disagree.

Waylon Wong (7:33)

What?

Linda Holmes (7:34)

I'm not talking about performance. I'm talking about, like.

Waylon Wong (7:36)

Anyway, I kind of like the Glinda one better, too. I don't know.

Aisha Harris (7:39)

Oh, Turns out you and I will be on this side.

Linda Holmes (7:42)

Neither one of them is a great song and neither one of them is necessary. But, yeah, in the end, I mean, Fiyero has the problem of being the same kind of, like, underwritten love interest that women often are in so many movies. So I think it's perfect that you're the sexiest male alive. Like, that's, of course.

Aisha Harris (7:59)

Yes.

Linda Holmes (7:59)

Fine. Right, sure. Why do you exist? I don't know. I mean, I do, but whatever. But I mostly did enjoy this. I mostly did enjoy it.

Waylon Wong (8:07)

I did love the staging of For Good. And that was also the emotional high point, I think, of both movies for me. And I appreciated that it was done in a kind of more restrained manner that in a lot of ways is a huge contrast from the rest of the film with all of its Technicolor glory and this very heightened production design. For Good, it's just really focused on their faces, on the emotion. And I was a mess. I was a mess. But I. I love that they kept it so focused on these two characters. Because it is also a contrast from Defying Gravity, which has, you know, we discussed this on the last episode has just Cynthia Rubo kind of flying all over the place and lots of special effects.

Aisha Harris (8:49)

Great.

Waylon Wong (8:51)

And I just liked how stripped down this was. It was very, very beautiful.

Linda Holmes (8:54)

Yeah.

Trevel Anderson (8:54)

As we're talking about the movie and the music in particular, I will say hearing it in Dolby does change things, I imagine, when it comes to. Even the restraint that you mentioned, Waylon, about how For Good is kind of rendered. It's so beautiful. And you can hear both of their voices, both, like, individually and together with the Dolby situation. Like, it changed my experience seeing it without it.

Waylon Wong (9:25)

Oh, wow.

Linda Holmes (9:25)

By the same token, I was not on the panel last time we talked about the first movie. And I think because of that, I saw the first movie at home and my reaction to that movie was like, it's fine. Right? I like it. It's fine. I super respect these actors and that kind of stuff. I wonder how different I would have felt about it or if I would have felt differently about it if I had seen that one in, like, a theater, a big Dolby theater. Cause I really did find with this that despite some story weirdness and the fact that it lags a bit in this half, I was quite engaged. It helps from my perspective that this one is basically 2 hours and 15 and the last one was 2 hours and 45. And I think those lengths are way more different than those 30 minutes might make them sound. That, to me, is a normal length movie versus a very long movie. So in some ways, I think I enjoyed this more. But I suspect that's because of the forgid thing, which I mentioned. The timing and the fact that I saw it in A theater.

Aisha Harris (10:32)

I still don't think it needed to be two different movies, but they are very kind of different in terms of what they're trying to do as, you know, Act 1 versus Act 2, where, like, Act 1 is a lot of setup. It's a lot of, you know, we're just meeting these characters and then we're just plopped in, in Act 2 for Good, the movie. And we're catching up with where they all are now that Elphaba is basically an outlaw and has been demonized. And it's interesting because maybe this is also just inherently part of the issue with the show, but, like, watching it again and not having seen a production of the show in probably about 20 years at this point, I realized how, like, it kind of falls apart, just narratively speaking, like, Waylon, to your point about Glinda and her sort of evolution. The more I think about it, I'm like, I don't know. Glinda was actually a pretty bad person and a bad friend. Like, her intentions weren't necessarily always bad, but, like, intentions don't always mean that much when the outcome is what happens to Elphaba. And it stuck to me where the moment in For Good where they're like, you know, we both have blame to share. I'm like, do we both?

Linda Holmes (11:41)

Do we both have blame?

Sponsor Voice (11:42)

Yeah.

Aisha Harris (11:44)

I don't know about that, but that is an issue that's part of the show. And I think, like, having read the original book that this is based off of, not L. Frank Baum, but Wicked by Gregory Maguire. Like, that book is so much more radical and way different from this, and I think is a little bit more realistic than this musical could ever be. And that's okay. But it did make me think, like, oh, man, the second half also just like. I don't know, it just doesn't really meld politically like what the rest of it seems to be trying to say about how we should attack, you know, fascism and oppressive regimes. In a way.

Waylon Wong (12:21)

Yeah. I mean, when I refer to the Glinda character development problem, that is kind of a stand in for this larger problem you point out, which is a bit of political incoherence, I think, in the message. And that's something that is not present in the Maguire novel, because that novel is a very political novel.

Aisha Harris (12:38)

Yes.

Waylon Wong (12:38)

Yeah. The politics get very much distilled and watered down for the stage version. And that creates, I think, some narrative and character development problems, especially with Glinda, where she has to make a pretty big turn. She has to go from Being really shallow, having no real ideology or any kind of higher purpose to her, and not really having any interesting moral values or moral compass or anything. And she has to then get radicalized and then also be a bit of a political leader or be a political strategist. And I just think that was a really, really big leap to make, that neither the musical nor the movie version of this really sticks. And when I just let myself get carried away by the musical numbers and Ariana Grande's performance, which is so sincere and so lovely, then I don't really mind. It's when I get home and I'm eating a snack and thinking about it when I'm like, mm, that didn't really hang together for me.

Aisha Harris (13:45)

Or when you're listening to the Girl in the Bubble, Ariana's song that is supposed to carry so much of that weight. The new song that's added, right. Like, it's.

Linda Holmes (13:54)

Yeah.

Waylon Wong (13:55)

If forced to pick. I did like that most out of all of the new numbers, but I don't think the show needed new numbers. I liked what they did with doing these reprises of the songs you already know from the first one. And they made this movie a little bit more sung through by calling back to the Act 1 songs. I really liked how they did that. And to me, that almost made the addition of the new songs feel that much more leaden. Because I was like, you have perfectly good material in the first one. Don't need new stuff.

Linda Holmes (14:26)

Yeah. I mean, there's no question that I think the addition of new material and the addition of new scenes and everything they did to kind of make the second half of this. The part of this, after Defying Gravity that, as I understand it in the show, is about an hour into a movie that's 2:15. You know, you gotta add kind of a lot of stuff. And I think I absolutely would agree that there are just parts of that calculation that are just obviously commercial and business oriented and were probably always gonna happen. I will say I'd rather have them add songs than have them do what has happened in some other movie musicals, which is the removal of a song and the replacement of it with a different song, which has done some real violence to Guys and Dolls in particular. Do not get me started.

Aisha Harris (15:15)

Your eyes are the eyes of a.

Linda Holmes (15:17)

Woman in love and also justice for a bushel and a peck and negative shout out to pet me, Papa. Anyway, don't get me started. The point is, I do prefer adding to replacing songs. Those are the ones where I get really, really agitated. One Thing I wanted to ask you guys about was how you felt about the incorporation of the elements from the wizard of Oz. Because obviously, as this story is coming closer to the events of the wizard of Oz and as they actually cross over a bit, and you do start to see elements of that story in this story, how the way it plays with those things struck you.

Trevel Anderson (15:54)

We talked at the start of this conversation about how there are some people who don't know the ending.

Sponsor Voice (16:01)

Right.

Trevel Anderson (16:01)

Who don't know this wicked story, even though wicked is so huge. I felt like the wizard of Oz was very much treated that way. Like there's all these forecastings or these hints at the wizard of Oz, at Dorothy and Dodo.

Linda Holmes (16:19)

That was funny. That was really fun.

Aisha Harris (16:20)

As she calls him Dodo? Yes, as she calls him. That was great. That was a great moment.

Trevel Anderson (16:25)

It felt like there were a lot of whispers there. But if you weren't familiar with the source, I think it would be a beautiful surprise, Right. How all of these characters come to, you know, the ending that we at least know for the wizard of Oz and the kind of twist there. I thought they did it really well, but also didn't have to dive into Dorothy's background. Didn't have to. In part because it's the wizard of Oz. If you don't know Wicked, you definitely know the wizard of Oz.

Aisha Harris (16:58)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, if my memory serves correctly, we don't hear Dorothy at all. We see her mostly kind of like in profile or silhouette or just.

Linda Holmes (17:09)

I was gonna say, not her face.

Aisha Harris (17:10)

Yeah, yeah. Like, just her feet, but a lot. Cause she has the wicked Witches slippers. The shoes. Yeah, so she has the shoes on. So we see that it's an alternate history. The point is to say, like, to question this idea of who is actually good versus who is actually evil. And I enjoyed the sort of, you know, little callbacks to the wizard of Oz and the familiarity in a way that I like. Probably would not like it in the way it's been done in the past. And playing lip service, you know, when you think of all those superhero movies or whatever, when they're frequently dropping these little Easter eggs or whatever, it's like, hey, you remember that thing? I think this does a better job because it is still weaved into the story. And I mean, I will say, I don't know if we needed all that hype around Colman Domingo being in this movie, because when he does show up, you might not even realize he showed up until after the movie.

Waylon Wong (18:00)

That was me. That was my experience.

Trevel Anderson (18:02)

I didn't realize that was him until my third screening.

Waylon Wong (18:05)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Aisha Harris (18:07)

We don't see him. It's just his voice. He's. I don't think it's a spoiler to say he's a Cowardly lion, but yeah, I liked it. But I could also see some people in the audience being like, oh, my goodness, this is too much Dorothy. This is too much like, oh, this is so on the nose. But I liked it. I don't. I liked it.

Waylon Wong (18:23)

I think that was like my minimalist, viable amount of Dorothy. Because you don't want to show so much of her that then it becomes so distracting because then you're fixated on, well, who did they stunt cast as Dorothy and is she gonna sing and what kind of conversation is she gonna have? You really wanna keep it very Elphaba Glinda focused at the end. So I think that was pretty cleverly handled. The way they don't even show her face and they don't spend that much time with those central four, really in that form. So I thought that was well done. Cause you can't not have them, but you also can't have them be so prominent that then you start to feel like you're watching a Wizard of Oz remake instead.

Linda Holmes (19:02)

Right, right. And I think, like, when you start to see those characters come in, it's like you said, you don't really want to shift the focus to that. And I think they mostly got away with how they do it. I will say there were a couple times when, like, they do little things that are like, here's someone saying, I'm off to see the Wizard. I think those are the things that become a little ham handed. But I think the importance of kind of keeping both of those elements in the story is that my understanding is wicked. The novel is sort of about several different things, one of which is this idea of reconsidering history in terms of who are the good guys and who are the bad guys. I think the musical and this film hit that good. There is also a thread about how we treat people who are different. How we act individually, ethically.

Aisha Harris (19:50)

Right.

Linda Holmes (19:50)

How you think about your ethics as an individual person. How should you treat people, should you try to be good? That, I think is here, I think that survives. I think the piece that is not here that you've already alluded to is this other political piece about essentially collective action to resist oppressive governments. That part is sort of not here. And in the translation of the novel to the musical, there's a little bit of a. There's a little bit of a shuffle from Elphaba is essentially in exile because she's a political radical working in an underground movement. To Elphaba is to some degree, Elphaba is in exile because she's different and she's been rejected and misunderstood. And they can both be good stories, but they're really different. So I think the Dorothy stuff brings you back to the piece of it that I think maybe works the best, which is the piece about every villain bad guy. Not every, but many villains have pieces of their story that provide necessary context for what they do and how to treat them. Especially people who become kind of celebrated villains, like the government itself, telling you the person is a villain. Those are maybe the most important ones to reconsider and rethink. And then I think that part works really well. And so the Dorothy stuff works well. But then they sang for good and I cried.

Waylon Wong (21:15)

And hall was made better.

Linda Holmes (21:17)

And hall was made better because, you know, like, what's better than that?

Waylon Wong (21:21)

Yeah, I cried in that one. Obviously. I also cried at the end of no Good Deed, which is Elphaba's big showstopper. Oh, I was so blown away by her performance of that. And that was the first time that people in my screening applauded that people were moved to applaud after that one.

Aisha Harris (21:40)

She hit that note. She hit those final notes like goosebumps, the way she does goosebumps.

Trevel Anderson (21:45)

And that's what you want to hear in Dolby. I'm going to let you know that now. You want to hear that in the Dolby.

Linda Holmes (21:52)

I absolutely get it. Yeah. I think on the whole, a satisfying time with reservations and questions kind of wraps up my experience, perhaps the experience several of us had. So tell us what you think about Wicked for good. Don't pretend that you don't know about it. Don't pretend you might not go see it. Tell us what you think about it. Find us on facebook@facebook.com pchhanonletterboxetterboxd.com NPR PopCulture. We'll have a link in our episode description. Up next, what's making us happy this week?

Sponsor Voice (22:24)

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Aisha Harris (23:41)

Him for me, sometimes I just need.

Announcer (23:44)

To go and talk to somebody that.

Aisha Harris (23:47)

Is not going to judge me right.

Trevel Anderson (23:49)

Is going to be there and going.

Announcer (23:50)

To listen to me and I can.

Linda Holmes (23:53)

Start just saying, look, I'm not feeling right today and it feels natural. I love it.

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Linda Holmes (24:24)

For our favorite segment of this week and every week. What's making us happy this week? Waylon Wong what is making you happy this week?

Waylon Wong (24:30)

Okay, what's making me happy is a piano player named Grayson Smith. Now he does not have an album or even a YouTube channel I can point you to. What he does is he plays piano at Disney World at Magic Kingdom on Main street outside of Casey's Corner. If you know Magic Kingdom and he is this amazing piano player, he knows every Disney song. So you can request whatever Disney song you want and he does these beautiful medleys. And I had the pleasure of seeing him actually in person last month cause I went to Disney on vacation and I was able to request my favorite Disney song, I'll Make a Man out of youf from Mulan.

Trevel Anderson (25:07)

Yes, that's a good choice.

Aisha Harris (25:09)

Let's get down to Vivid business.

Waylon Wong (25:10)

Exactly. Got to defeat the Huns, Aisha. But I wanted to share this clip of him playing. This is a Tik Tok video of him playing One More Sleep Till Christmas from the Muppets Christmas Carol. So he does these beautiful arrangements all from memory. His name is Grayson Smith and Again, he doesn't have an album, but just go on TikTok or Instagram Reels or YouTube, type in Grayson Piano Disney, and give yourself over to the algorithm. And there's so many delightful videos of him doing all these different songs, including show tunes.

Aisha Harris (25:57)

Done. Done.

Linda Holmes (25:58)

Nice. Love it, love it, love it, love it. Thank you very much, Waylon Trevill. What is making you happy this week?

Trevel Anderson (26:05)

What is making me happy this week? So have you all heard about the Reliving Single Podcast?

Aisha Harris (26:12)

I have been listening to the Reliving Single podcast.

Linda Holmes (26:15)

I have heard about it. I have not heard it.

Trevel Anderson (26:17)

Okay, so this is the unofficial official rewatch podcast of the fabulous iconic show Living Single. It features Erica Alexander and Kim Coles, who played Maxine Shaw and Sinclair James on the show. They're rewatching the show. They've invited cast members. You know, Queen Latifah don't show up, you know, for just anybody. You know, she is a queen after all. Right? She has to be intentional. But she showed up. And that episode in particular. But the entire podcast, they're in their first season right now. It is just so fun. And they're also dropping these little tidbits of information about black Hollywood history, about their experiences navigating, you know, their careers. It really is a great opportunity, I think, for those of us who are fans of this show and these folks work to relive it alongside them and also hear kind of their reflections about what it was like, you know, in real time. So that is what is making me happy. The Reliving Single Podcast. You can check it out on YouTube or wherever. You're listening to our fabulous voices right now, I'm sure.

Linda Holmes (27:29)

Thank you very much.

Announcer (27:30)

Thank you very much.

Linda Holmes (27:30)

Trevel Anderson. Aisha Harris. What is making you happy this week?

Aisha Harris (27:34)

My friend Simon Ennis's the Tales from the Tabletop is a documentary that is perfectly suited for people like me who are big board game nerds. This is just a very kind of delightful little documentary about the people who love to play board games, as well as those who are trying to create their own games and get them out in the world. It includes the creator of Wingspan, Elizabeth Hargrave. Wingspan is one of my absolute favorite board games. It's so fun. And if you're a birder, you'd probably like it, too. I'm not a birder, but I've learned so much about birds just by playing this game. And it also, like, profiles the World Series of Board Gaming, which happens in Las Vegas. It's super nerdy. It's exactly what you would think. Like, you get all these personalities. One of my favorite personalities is our family plays games, which is this family that has a YouTube channel, this Black family. It's a husband, wife, and their son. They review games, they do interviews. They like, just try to make it so that, like, everyone who loves to play games, regardless of their background, they can feel comfortable. I love it. It's pleasant, it's fun. And I just enjoy watching people who are even nerdier about board games than I am, like, who are spending hours and hours and hours preparing for the World Series of Board Gaming. Whoa. It's intense and it's very heartwarming. So that's the Tales from the Tabletop, and it's available on the Roku channel, but you can also rent it on vod.

Linda Holmes (29:00)

Great. All right, thank you very much, Aisha Harris. So what is making me happy this week comes, unsurprisingly from the world of dogs.

Trevel Anderson (29:07)

Dogs.

Linda Holmes (29:08)

Because once you have a dog, like I do, you just find yourself in the world of dogs. And there is an Instagram account and I think also TikTok and other places, but I follow on Instagram a woman whose name is Isabel, who is a kind of very well known foster mom to medically challenged foster dogs. And her dog's name is Simon. So her channel is called Simon Sits. If you ever heard about, like, a very terrified foster dog named Tiki who went viral for a time. Tiki was one of Isabel's foster dogs, but recently she has been rehabilitating a foster dog named Whimsy. And when she got ahold of Whimsy, Whimsy was literally the thinnest dog I've ever seen. It's. You look at her and you're like, I'm surprised. This dog was still kind of standing up. So I've been watching her kind of gradually over the weeks, like, whimsy's gotten kind of like, healthier and healthier looking. But Isabelle and her fiance recently learned that whimsy really likes to be sung to. Unless it's Creed with arms wide open under the sunlight. Welcome to this place. I'll show you.

Aisha Harris (30:21)

She's like, mom, make it stop. This came up on my algorithm.

Linda Holmes (30:26)

Her fiance sings to the dog. The dog loves it. Every time the fiance starts singing to whimsy, she runs over to him and she's like, oh, my God, I love it. I love it. If he sings a Creed song, she goes and, like, hides behind. It's so funny. And it's the kind of thing where you see it and you think like, maybe this isn't real. They might be making it up, but it's like it sure looks real. And she's so fun to follow. Sometimes the stories are difficult cause it's sick animals. So just be conscious of that. But she is a really like warm personality. I greatly enjoy following her. She has, by the way, a book coming out in a few months called Dogs, Boys and Other Things I've Cried about, which is very, I think, on brand for the channel. But again, her channel is called Simon Sits. You can check out her incredibly beautiful, her own dog who has medical challenges as well. And then also this parade of wonderful, lovable foster dogs as they go out into the world to be adopted. So that is what is making me happy this week. If you want like links for what we recommended, plus some more recommendations, sign up for our newsletter. It's at npr.org popculturenewsletter that brings us to the end of our very, very wicked slash good show. Trevill Anderson, Waylon Wong, Aisha Harris, thank you so much for being here to talk about this movie. It was really fun.

Aisha Harris (31:45)

Thank you.

Trevel Anderson (31:46)

Thank you, Linda.

Waylon Wong (31:47)

Thank you.

Linda Holmes (31:47)

This episode is produced by Carly Rubin, Liz Metzger, Kayla Latimore and Mike Catsiff. And it was edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. And hello. Come in provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. I'm Linda Holmes and we'll see you all next week.

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