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Safe to say Marvel's new series Wonder man is not what most Marvel fans are expecting, and that's a good thing. There are superpowers, but not really because its core sensibility is buddy comedy. Yahya Abdul Mateen II plays a down on his luck actor trying to make it in Hollywood. Ben Kingsley plays his new friend with a dark past. It's all an excuse to make what turns out to be a hangout show about life in Tinseltown. I'm Glenn Weldon and today we're talking about Wonder man on Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr.
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Joining me today is film and culture critic Kate Young. Hey, Kate.
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Hello.
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Hello. Also with us is New York Times food reporter and author of the best selling cookbook Indian Ish Priya Krishna Hebrew.
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Hi, Glenn.
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Hey. Let's get to it. In Wonder Man, Yahya Abdul Mateen II is Simon, an actor who over prepares and overthinks so much that he's underemployed. When he was a kid, he loved a cheesy 80s superhero movie called Wonder Man. So when he gets a chance to audition for its modern reboot, he does everything he can to nail it. He gets some help from Ben Kingsley playing washed up actor Trevor Slattery, who the six of you who remember Iron Man 3 will recall was hired to portray the Mandarin, the public face of a terrorist organization. He went to jail for that, but he's out now. They team up to help each other audition for roles in Wonder man as Trevor gives Simon advice on the art of acting. Never forget that nature. That's our job, to understand the world around us and ourselves within it. The real work isn't digging for subtext or passing a writer's intent. The real work is living. But Trevor's dark past isn't quite done with him. And did I mention that Simon has amazing superpowers that he's desperately attempting to hide for reasons that become clear as the series progresses? Wonder man is streaming now on Disney plus. Priya, kick us off.
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What do you think?
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I was very skeptical of this, namely because I am a Marvel fan experiencing Marvel fatigue. It's been a while since I've been really thrilled by the Marvel Cinematic Universe. And when this started, it started kind of slow. But I will say about halfway through, I think it was the Damar Doorman Davis episode A flip switched. And I really, really like how this series landed. And I actually found this to be a much more charming look at the entertainment industry than even the studio or the franchise.
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B
Okay, interesting. What about you, Kate?
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I really liked it. I mean, I definitely have a bit of Marvel fatigue myself, but I think because I'm such a big fan of Yaya, I was definitely willing to see where this went. I really liked it a lot. As someone who is, despite being a film critic, still very much in awe of the world of Hollywood, I really liked that it spent so much time kind of Illuminating what the work of acting actually is and what it looks like. And I found that really fascinating. And it was something that I don't think I've seen a ton of, at least in my own experience in other media either. So adding the extra element of placing that inside the Marvel Cinematic Universe was a fun exercise for me. I think all the performances are really great. I had a great time.
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I like this, too. But I know my superhero people, and I know there's gonna be a lot of them who will be waiting to get to the fireworks factory. So, you know, let's let those folks know there is no fireworks factory here. There is kind of their dramatic equivalent of a very Hollywood thing. A general meeting, which is where a studio or a network invites an actor, writer, or director in to talk about projects that never happen. They give him a tiny bottle of water, and then they send them home. That's kind of what it feels like. This show's engine is another very Hollywood thing. Like life on a Hollywood set. It's hurry up and wait. It's indefinitely delayed. Gratification de escalation, anticlimax. And you gotta get with that program if you're gonna enjoy it. I mostly did. At the end of the eight episodes, though, I'm not sure I felt like there was quite enough happening to keep me from getting impatient with it. Which is why I was glad we got all eight at once. Not because I was waiting for some big superhero. Pew, pew, pew. But because once I recalibrated my expectations, right? And I met it on the level of what it was trying to be. Cause this show teaches you how to watch it. A comedy about being an actor in Hollywood. There just wasn't a lot in there that I hadn't seen before. I do think it's kind of coasting a bit on its setup. Like, guys, this is a superhero show. That's not a superhero show. It's a multicam comedy. That's Midnight Cowboy in Hollywood. On paper, great idea. In execution, not quite enough. That was new or fresh or funny. And I might be reacting to the press materials and certainly some of the reviews, which are like, this isn't superheroes. This is better. This is a word I have grown to hate. Elevated.
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Oh, I hate that.
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Yeah. And look, if you're gonna serve me a burger, that's actually cake, that's great. I'm fine with it. Give me a fork. Just has to be great cake. And the cake felt a little stale to me. Do you get that?
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E
I agree with you. I guess I Will push back with two points. One is that I was kind of wowed by the chemistry between the two main characters, played by Yahya Abdul Mateen II and Ben Kingsley. Their chemistry was so palpable and so charming and kind of carried the show for me. And the second thing was I thought that it had a few interesting quirks, namely this idea of the doorman clause. Can I explain what that is?
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Sure, please do.
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So basically, the doorman clause, there is this one episode mid season I really liked this episode that really basically explains how this superpowered individual who became an actor. He's on set with Josh Gad in the sequel to a heist film, and he accidentally, like, swallows Josh Gad, which results in Hollywood basically creating this clause in which they will never work with superpowered individuals. And Simon, the main character, is a superpowered individual. And so it sort of creates these very interesting stakes where he is superpowered, but he has to keep that a secret. And I thought that and the chemistry were the elements that kept me interested.
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Right. That's unique to the show.
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But otherwise, like, yes, I agree with you. I feel like it was cake, and it was a good cake. It wasn't the best cake I've ever had, but it was enough to keep me eating and to finish the slice.
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B
There we go.
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I mean, I'm an all cake is better than all pie person. And, like, when it comes to.
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All right. Created a monster when it comes to.
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The mcu, like, I'm a person who cries every single time I watch Endgame. These are movies, to me, that exist not to be high art, which, like, sure, that's maybe grading on a curve, but I absolutely am because I want to be entertained. They make me feel things. I'm invested in the characters. That's really all I need from them. Right. Like, what I really liked about this is that exact same aspect of the story. That desire that he has, that necessity that he has to hide that he is a part individual. Specifically, to me, because it read as a very clear metaphor for what it is like living with a mental illness. And to me, his struggle to not just hide his powers, but also to work through his craft as an actor are parallel. Right. Because so much of what he is doing in terms of preparing his characters is about planning. Right. It's just about making sure that he can predict what comes next and he can prepare for what comes next so that he is not then put in a situation which he loses control and reveals himself. And that really, really, really parallels what it looks like to have Severe anxiety or schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, where you are in a situation in which you understand what your triggers are, but you are both trying to hide them and control them. In a world in which you can't ask for help because no one can know, you can't tell anyone because that leads to consequences and stigma. Like, it really, really, really resonated to me that he sees his powers not as something that are not just, you know, a disadvantage to his chosen profession, but something that could have real significant consequences to him, both socially and professionally. And the fact that the Department of Damage Control spends most of the season basically being like, he is dangerous. We have to capture him. So and so, despite the fact that, like, the only time we really see him doing anything even close to violence is when he is upset or like, accidentally. Right. Like, this is not someone who is going out of his way to harm people. Right.
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Yeah.
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To me, it was such a perfect parallel there that I like, to me, that kind of overrides any of the other issues that I have with this story.
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Okay. I mean, you're both hitting on my favorite part of the series, which is a very Marvel Comics thing, which is like, let's meditate on the text and really fully imagine what life in the real world would be like if there were superheroes in it. There would be property damage, there would be civilian casualties, There would be traffic jams. Right. Which would drive up insurance costs. And in the real world and in our studios, despite being led by billionaires, are really tight fisted and loath to surrender any money. So, yes, that's how life would work. It's just in the execution. The shadow of the studio is a big one. The shadow of the franchise. A thing I didn't really like, but they both came out before this did. But the fact that they did is kind of Disney's fault. Because this show, Wonder man was completed and sitting on a shelf. Yeah, but after the commercial, or critical disappointments like the Marvels and Secret Invasion, Disney told Marvel to slow down its output and space things out. So this came out after those shows. And in execution here, a scene would start. You'd have a very good idea where it's going. And you were right. But it just took so long to get there. Because that's a very deliberate choice. And a very deliberate choice because that's intentional. The scene where Simon in the pilot is this insufferable actor guy on the set of American Horror Story, it starts and you get it, but it just keeps going. How long have Sarah and I known each Other. Hmm, That's a good question.
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C
What are you thinking?
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D
I was thinking we'd go pretty far back.
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Like, maybe we were best friends, but we had a little falling out when.
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She got tenure before me.
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Sure, why not?
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D
Right.
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Might add a little layer to the scene.
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And the reason it keeps going is because of this show's organizing principle, its intent, which is to prioritize character over plot. That was good. That was small. That was specific. There just weren't enough of those specific details. And the Josh Gad thing, he appears as a kind of, you know, D bag version of himself.
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D
Oh, yeah, look who's in the house.
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B
Oh.
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A
What?
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There he is back. What's up, Mr. Gad?
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How you doing, sir?
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Mr. Gad? Come on, man, call me Josh or Jay Gad.
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I'm trying to make that a thing.
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Which is great. But then you check his IMDb page. There is a surprising number of Josh Gad as himself credits where he's kind of doing the same thing at the end of the day. Look, I think there is definitely enough to recommend here, but for me, it was only just. Only cross the line.
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I want to talk about the sort of comparisons with the studio and the franchise, because I did have the same thought. I personally found this to be far less self indulgent than those television shows, but the show that I thought of actually watching this was more the recent iteration of Watchmen.
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Watchmen, yeah.
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Also, I haven't heard that.
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C
Yeah.
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Abdul Mateen II as Dr. Manhattan who's hiding powers. I feel like the genius of that show was sort of. It was a superhero show, but it really peeled back the layers of like, what is a superhero and who gets to be a superhero, and why do we love superheroes so much? And there is this one episode in Watchmen about sort of the origins of superhero Dom that is like one of my favorite episodes of television. And the Damar Doorman Davis episode is sort of. It felt a little bit like an homage to that episode. Obviously it didn't have the power and heft of that Watchmen episode, but it did feel interested in saying more about what it means to be a superhero than your average superhero movie. And obviously the fact that Yahya Abdul Mateen II plays Dr. Manhattan in that and he plays a superhero in this, I loved him in both, but I feel like the similarities I felt between this show and Watchmen made me like it more better and it made me want more shows that sort of peel back the curtain of superhero Dom rather than just being like, all right, here's A new superhero.
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Sure. Yeah.
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I mean, to your point, Glenn, I think ironically, what I think might have solved some of the problems that you're having would have been more of the Department of Damage Control. Because I think that there's enough in there to kind of establish the general stakes. But there's like a tiny bit of commentary about the prison industrial complex. There's a big meeting that they have where they're cutting our budgets. And the issue isn't like, oh, we haven't caught the bad guys. It's the prison is empty. Right. And kind of looking at that as how that relates directly to this man who has powers that he possibly can't control, who, if we're looking at it, you know, as this metaphor for mental health is being targeted by the government for incarceration because of that mental health illness. Like, there's a lot more that could be happening there. But at the same time, like, I don't necessarily know that I really want to spend a ton of time with cops.
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Like, sure, sure.
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But at the same time, I feel like there actually was a lot of, like, plot forward stuff that could have been mined there to kind of give us a little bit more. Because I agree, like, I've seen the whole thing twice. I watched it in one sitting both times. And like, it does spin its wheels a lot, specifically because of precisely what you've already mentioned about prioritizing character. They just kind of go, well, like, we're spinning our wheels a little bit to do a little fun detour until we get to that point.
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I mean, this is not the first time Marvel has made a show like this, which is purely character driven comedy first, superhero stuff second or third. She Hulk. Marvel Bros. Hated it. I kind of liked it. Hawkeye had some of that same likeness. Agatha all along. Echo very much didn't have that lightness. And Ironheart didn't really. One of the creators of this show is Andrew Guest. He wrote on 30 Rock. He wrote on Community, he wrote on Brooklyn 9 9. The other Daddy of the show is Dest Daniel Cretton. He directed a tiny film I really dug called short term 12 and a big film I also really dug called Shang Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings, which also had a lot of fun with Ben Kingsley's Trevor Schlattery. So you can really see the DNA of this. You can see where it's coming from. But I mean, you know, we talked about the chemistry of the two leads, but is there anything more you wanted to say about it?
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The performances between both of them are, I think, like, the real draw of the show. And they're really great together. Preeti talked a little bit about their chemistry, but I really, really liked the way that they made the work of acting visible. Like, I think, like, if you are just a regular viewer and you're watching a film, you're not thinking like, oh, this is a person, and they're doing a great acting job. Like, I'm watching characters and those are their lives. But I think when you then have a situation which an actor then has to act as if they are acting, and they have to make that acting visible in order to make it apparent to both the audience and the other characters in the scene. Like, to me, that's a different skill set, an additional skill set. And I think that everyone involved in the show is really, really excellent with that because they're not only having to give these performances as these characters, but they're having to demonstrate their ability to perform this high level skill in both good and bad ways and to make those things very distinct and obvious to the audience in a way that I think, like, given some of the conversations around the Oscar nominations, I don't think people really understand what an actor's job actually is. I really, really, really enjoyed that aspect of the show and also the comedy that they kind of mined from him. Kind of being like, a little too into maybe not being able to read a room. And understanding when this is simply not important to the story, you need to let it go. I mean, there's one scene where he's kind of saying, like, well, I don't think this character would be reading this book. They would be teaching a different book because of.
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B
Yeah.
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And I'm like, no one cares. No one cares. But, yeah, I really, really liked it. I thought that it was interesting to get such a really specific and, like, targeted look at what the craft is, because I think a lot of people really feel like if they made me cry, they're good at their job. And, like, sometimes they're just like, mean. You're a crybaby. It doesn't necessarily mean they were good.
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I will say that I feel like Marvel really lost the sauce in the last few years. And this show and the swings that it takes makes me feel like, all right, I could get behind this. Recasting Robert Downey Jr. As Dr. Doom, I don't know. But sort of a quirky show about what it means to be an actor. Like, I'm down with that. I feel like if the Marvel universe is like, all right, we're gonna do the action movies for theaters, and then we're gonna do these more indie shows like Agatha, like this. I'm totally fine with that.
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Yeah. And that's the strength of Marvel Comics anyway, is that everything can kind of go off in its own thing, but be part of the whole because it's the universe that connects them. It's not necessarily a tone that connects them. And that different superheroes and different characters have different tones. I think we are all recommending at various volumes, but I think we're all recommending it. We want to know what you think about Wonder man. Find us@facebook.com PCHH and a reminder, we are pulling back the curtain and letting Pop Culture Happy Hour plus supporters sit in virtually on a live episode taping. They'll get to see how the show is made and experience this episode before everyone else. We'll be talking about something Oscars related, which is always fun, and because it's live plus supporters will get to see the stuff that our producers always cut out of the show. It's all happening over Zoom on Friday, February 13th at 3pm Eastern Noon Pacific. If you're not a plus supporter yet, go to plus.npr.org happy again, that's plus.npr.org happy if you're already a plus supporter, thank you so much and scroll back in your feed to January 22nd to learn how to register for the taping. That brings us to the end of our show. Kate Young, Priya Krishna, thank you so much for being here.
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D
Thanks for having me.
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E
It was fun.
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This episode was produced by Carly Rubin, Kayla Latimore and Mike Katsif, and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy and hello Kim. Improvise our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. I'm Glenn Weldon, and we'll see you all next time.
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