Gene Demby (2:37)

What's good with your friend? How are you?

Linda Holmes (2:38)

I am so happy to see you. Also with us is Regina Barber. She's a host and reporter for NPR's Science podcast short Wave. Hey, Regina.

Regina Barber (2:46)

Hey. I'm so excited.

Linda Holmes (2:47)

I'm so excited to see you. And rounding out the panel. Ugh. Is the former host of Slate's Internet culture podcast, icymi. And more importantly, in my heart, let's admit, former Pop Culture Happy hour producer Candace Lim. Welcome back, Candace.

Candace Lim (3:03)

Hello. Hello.

Linda Holmes (3:05)

So at the end of Zootopia, Judy Hopps, a bunny voiced by Jennifer Goodwin, and Nick Wilde, a fox voiced by Jason Bateman, became partners with the Zootopia police department, having worked together to catch a corrupt assistant mayor and put her away. Now they're settling into new jobs, trying to get used to the fact that she's a strict rule follower and he's a little more laid back. We have to set another meeting with the chief.

Regina Barber (3:30)

Promise we'll be better. You talk back less, maybe not at all.

Sponsor Voice (3:33)

Yeah.

Linda Holmes (3:33)

Or we go with my playbook and we just lay low. They get thrown into a new case that involves a snake named Gary, voiced by Oscar winner KE Huy Quan, as well as a lynx named Pawbert, voiced by Andy Samberg. It also touches on the history of Zootopia and exactly how it came to be run the way it is. Judy and Nick get a little help from a friendly beaver with the voice of Fortune Feimster, and they naturally cross paths with lots of their old pals from the first movie. Zootopia 2 is in theaters now. I'm gonna start with you, Regina. You came in kind of bouncing with eagerness to talk about this movie, which I get the sense. Enjoyed. Why don't you tell me about that?

Regina Barber (4:13)

I didn't think I would. I really loved the first movie. I think there were issues with the complications with, like, racial politics and, like, the drug war, but overall.

Gene Demby (4:22)

She says with understatement.

Candace Lim (4:24)

But over.

Regina Barber (4:26)

I think it was about also, you know, white feminism, which is the part I really liked. I mean, I really like that they addressed it, but I think I went in with, like, very low expectations. And I went with my daughter, who was 17, and we were, like, turning to each other and we were, like, smiling and, like, the whole way through, I was actually surprised by stuff. So I. I really enjoyed it. I was surprised. Pleasantly surprised.

Announcer (4:47)

Yeah.

Linda Holmes (4:48)

Well, that's. That is a good thing. Being pleasantly surprised is always a good thing. Jean, how about you? I. You have already sort of muttered your thought, which I remember from hearing you talk about the first one, that the politics of it were kind of sketchy for you. How did you feel about this one?

Gene Demby (5:04)

I mean, I'm a sucker for, like, animated things with lots of Puns.

Linda Holmes (5:08)

Yeah.

Gene Demby (5:08)

Big fan of BoJack Horseman. So this one actually worked a lot for me. The first one was so exasperating because I'd be like, yo, this movie has janky politics. And they'd be like, yo, it's a movie about a cartoon bunny. Relax. Like, you know what I mean? But at the beginning of the movie, she's like, giving out tickets to Willy Nilly to prove that she's a good cop. It's like, oh, my God, there's so much history of race integration and policing that is just being, like, sort of skirted over to make these sort of like, very happy points about, like, I was just exasperated. And this movie was not that. And so just clearing the bar of, like, not being exasperating with his politics.

Regina Barber (5:36)

Although I was less exasperated by the bunny character. Yes.

Gene Demby (5:39)

Just exacerbated by the bunny character. But there is some stuff in this movie that it is flicking at that are like, have some, I think, sort of trenchant, real world parallels that it doesn't flick at them too hard. But it's like, if you wanted to pull at those a little bit, it gets really tricky. But this movie seems to be less concerned with, like, sort of foregrounding those things. Whereas very purposely in the first movie, they wanted to make a movie about race and representation and power and policing. And it's like, okay, good luck with that, bruh.

Linda Holmes (6:06)

Right? And this one, I think they. We talked about this a little bit after we saw it that I think they're really more focusing on making something that's entertaining and visually witty and full of puns and cute animals and that kind of stuff. And it still has politics, but less prominently. So, Candace, you, as I understand, really loved the first one. How did you land on this one?

Candace Lim (6:29)

Okay, I like this movie less the more I think about it. Oh, no, see, here's the thing. So I really like the first Zootopia. I like it because back then March 2016, really didn't expect it to have these kind of subtext becoming text conversations about race and class, implicit bias and harmful stereotypes. All those things. I will say I rewatched it recently and I was like, oh, unlock the affirmative action angle. There's like little doors I feel like I keep opening up. And I think the other strength of that movie is like this enemies to friendship arc of Judy and Nick, buddy comedy, all that stuff. However, as Gene is like, very politely inferring to that film is Copaganda.

Gene Demby (7:07)

Yeah, that's. Thank you.

Linda Holmes (7:08)

It is.

Candace Lim (7:09)

And the thing is like upon rewatch, as someone who lives in L. A, that scene where in the first film, or Judy Hopps basically just gives people parking tickets for being, like, one minute late, that infuriated me. Anyway, I say this because I actually expected this film to take that a little further. And I think that this film is a lot less political. It is less risky. It's less risky, and it really tones down the copaganda. Now, another thing I didn't really fully understand is that this movie, I think, takes place like a week after the first film.

Linda Holmes (7:38)

Not long.

Candace Lim (7:39)

The first film's, like, whole conflict, right. Is about Predator versus Prey. I just had a little bit of a hard time thinking, so you guys fix that. You guys fix all of that. Interesting. But also, I just think that was a purposeful tactic because I think in 2016, there were things that they could get away with that. In 2025, I'm thinking more about. But also, I actually don't think I'm the main demo for this movie. I'm like third eye open, looking for any corner I can to see a deeper meaning. I don't think this film is that. And with that, it's a good sequel. It's not the sequel I wanted.

Regina Barber (8:10)

I will push back just a little. I think that I really, really liked the first movie because, like, I said, it addressed all these things, and I was actually an equity person at a diversity when this came out, and I had to, like, break apart all of these things. And I. I agree with you that it's copaganda, but I also think it really addressed white women that benefited from affirmative action and, like, didn't really realize these things and didn't realize their own biases. And I think that it was complicated and convoluted, but it was also very binary. It was like kind of talking about black and white America. And this one, I foresaw that probably they would talk about different races than black and white. And I think that there was a very clear storyline of, you know, the Latino population, the Latinx population. And I think that that was what they were trying to do. They were like, now we're not gonna get into binary. We're gonna get into something that's a little bit more spectrum. And I know it wasn't super deep, but I think they were trying to do that.

Linda Holmes (9:10)

Yeah. I mean, there's no question that this film has its own kind of politics and real world stuff that it's trying to touch on. Right. I think there's stuff in here about gentrification. There's stuff in here about, honestly, ethnic cleansing. There are these references that if that's what you're looking for, it's absolutely there. I don't even think you have to have a third eye, Candace.

Regina Barber (9:31)

No.

Gene Demby (9:31)

2 is sufficient.

Linda Holmes (9:32)

And I say this. I should have given this piece of background, but I didn't ever see the first one and entirely like, watch the whole thing.

Regina Barber (9:40)

Oh, wow.

Linda Holmes (9:40)

I saw a gazillion clips from it and I read a lot about it. What I knew about it coming into it was I did know that the first one had had these kind of heavy that kind of were sort of interesting, but also kind of messy if you explore them.

Regina Barber (9:53)

Yeah.

Linda Holmes (9:54)

So it was interesting to me that this one, although it has political elements, I do think this one maybe strikes a different balance in terms of if you are, for example, a six year old, they kind of just want you to have a good time. They kind of just want you to look at the funny snake and the funny bunny. And there's a lot of stuff in it about how to be an individual good person, how to be brave and how to be a good friend and things like that. And I think a lot of the systemic stuff would kind of go over your head as a little kid, which is probably okay for me watching it. Although I appreciated where I think it's coming from on some of these issues about communities and how communities develop to exclude people. I did appreciate this movie mostly as fun and as visually witty, which is one of the things that I really miss in a lot of animation now. Every single visual joke does not have to be something flying into something else's butt. Speak for yourself. That's a classic. There are different kind of things that are meant to be funny to look at, and I appreciated that. And there are weird ideas that I thought were cool and funny in this. There's a whole thing about how, like the walruses, when they greet each other and they say, bub, that was cute.

Candace Lim (11:13)

Hey, bub.

Gene Demby (11:13)

Hey, bub.

Announcer (11:13)

Hey, bub. Hey, Bob.

Regina Barber (11:14)

Hey bub.

Gene Demby (11:14)

Hey bub.

Candace Lim (11:15)

Hey bubba.

Regina Barber (11:16)

Hey, bub.

Gene Demby (11:17)

Hey, bub. Hey bub.

Linda Holmes (11:19)

Every time it le into that kind of weird sense of humor stuff, I enjoyed it even more. And I did get kind of wrapped up in, like, I cared about the people, I cared about the character. So as I was getting tense, I was like, you know, I'm wrapped up in this story. I hope everybody's gonna be okay.

Regina Barber (11:36)

I think the first movie was really like zooming out and it was like society. It was like a systemic racism of, you know, really whiteness. But I think this one really focused inward and it was like partnerships. It was about relationships in general. I really liked that. And I think for a kid, you can focus on like, how am I going to be a good friend? How am I going to be a good neighbor? I think that with the bub bub, that's really important that people talk differently in different parts of the world and even in your city. And you need to like adapt and otherwise they're not gonna understand you. And I think that, that again, it wasn't as, you know, hammer over the head as the first movie. But it is still talking about relationships. And I again, this is why I liked it. I think they did a good job.

Gene Demby (12:20)

So here's a question for you though. If we just dig into the internal lore of Zootopia just for a second. Just humor me, y'. All, just humor me. You have apparently at some point in the history of Zootopia, there were reptiles who lived there. And they have been absent from this. Zootopia. I was gonna say Utopia Zootopia for generations.

Regina Barber (12:38)

Well, they're still there. Just people don't see them. I mean, think about like people who clean your houses. People, you know, like.

Gene Demby (12:43)

But there's no snakes, right? There's no snakes in particular. There are reptiles around.

Candace Lim (12:47)

But there are anti snake too.

Gene Demby (12:49)

Anti snake, right? And so they just kind of skirt by that. It's like, okay, so you have a society built on the exclusion of snakes, right? Like, that's not.

Regina Barber (12:55)

Well, weird.

Candace Lim (12:57)

Gene. I'm going to take it one more further.

Announcer (12:59)

Go for it.

Gene Demby (12:59)

Go through it.

Candace Lim (12:59)

So the entire film I was asking myself, is the snake Asian? So let's have that conversation which is that the snake is voiced by Kim Jong Hwan. Look, here's the deal. The snake's name is Gary Da snake. D E apostrophe snake. So unfortunately, that is where my theory falls apart.

Regina Barber (13:15)

However, that's all right.

Candace Lim (13:17)

The whole deal is that the snakes in this film, they don't really exist in society. They're not accepted into society. They're definitely not getting SSIs off the society.

Gene Demby (13:25)

I just thought it was very weird that everybody was basically on the same page. Oh yeah, yeah. Snakes don't live here. That's no one like. And no one said a bad.

Candace Lim (13:31)

But the thing is, like, I think my issue, at least as a viewer is just that like, I think I expected this film to have those layers like a game for me to kind of unlock. And so I was kind of just reading Every character as this, as that. I mean, for example, Fortune Feimster. Right. First off, Fortune Feemster's whole thing is that she is a beaver. She's also a conspiracy theorist podcaster. There's that. And I just kind of feel like one of my worst takes to the point where I'm like, maybe don't publish this.

Gene Demby (13:58)

No, no, no. You should absolutely say it into a microphone, please.

Candace Lim (14:02)

I kind of wish the snake was voiced by Awkwafina. I know, I know, I know, I know.

Regina Barber (14:10)

Oh, my gosh.

Candace Lim (14:11)

Cause in a weird way, it would uncomplicate the things that I'm trying to complicate. And that's.

Regina Barber (14:16)

My God. Makes me think of Lucy Liu as the snake in Kung Fu Panda. So snakes are Asian. There is a canon at least, Right?

Gene Demby (14:23)

This is the thing about those utopia movies. Like, look at the conversation we're having about a movie about cartoon bunnies. You know what I'm saying?

Candace Lim (14:27)

I know, I know.

Regina Barber (14:28)

There's more than just bunnies.

Gene Demby (14:30)

Sorry, Bunnies and foxes.

Regina Barber (14:32)

Isn't that the whole point of the first movie?

Gene Demby (14:36)

Oh, my God. I don't know. Like, does Disney. Are they inviting?

Regina Barber (14:41)

I think they are.

Linda Holmes (14:41)

I think they are.

Regina Barber (14:42)

Yeah.

Linda Holmes (14:42)

Maybe not at the level of awkwafina, but, like, I'll say this. I got the impression that they're inviting a conversation up to. What happens in a society sometimes is that the people who are originally there eventually are ostracized and excluded and kind of as power develops, how it sometimes warps to become more exclusionary and more brutal toward different populations. I think they're inviting that.

Regina Barber (15:11)

Oh, yeah.

Linda Holmes (15:12)

I don't necessarily think that in 2016, they were inviting the conversation about, like, what are you doing when you give a bunch of people traffic tickets because you want to belong?

Regina Barber (15:21)

Yeah. No, they didn't go that far. Yeah.

Linda Holmes (15:23)

So I think in this one, probably also, they're inviting up to a certain point, but they're not necessarily thinking through, like, if the snake is Asian, then what does that mean? And what are we saying? And how does that relate to different cultures?

Regina Barber (15:35)

They kind of are thinking about these things. I think they're trying to do a lot and they kind of. In the first one, they tried to do a lot and they didn't hold back. And I think this one, they tried to do a lot and they held back a little, and they were like, ooh, let's actually think about what do I wanna say. I could see that, in my opinion.

Linda Holmes (15:53)

Well, and it's very funny to me that In a film like this, you'll see these things where it's like, what are they trying to say about the identity of this snake? And it's kind of a delicate and complicated, like, because of who the voice is and because of all this other stuff. And then they're also like, Fortune Feimster is a beaver. And so sometimes it seems to have a bit of subtlety to it, and other times it just seems like they're going, ha.

Candace Lim (16:17)

Well, here's something that I do think they were inviting that I purely rejected, which is, did you guys get the sense that they were trying to give Judy and Nick this, like, will they. Won't they romance?

Linda Holmes (16:26)

Yes, absolutely.

Gene Demby (16:28)

So there's a scene very early in the morning.

Regina Barber (16:30)

No. People are shipping hard, though, when Judy.

Gene Demby (16:32)

And Nick are undercover.

Candace Lim (16:34)

Yes.

Gene Demby (16:34)

And they're posing as a couple. Yeah.

Linda Holmes (16:36)

Mom and dad.

Gene Demby (16:36)

And I was like, wait, what would their baby look like? I mean. Cause.

Regina Barber (16:39)

Oh, yeah.

Gene Demby (16:40)

Oh, he's a fox.

Candace Lim (16:41)

I think he's a bunny.

Regina Barber (16:42)

To adopt.

Gene Demby (16:43)

I was very much like. Cause a lot of movies, a lot of cartoon animals can have babies. Yeah, well, I know. We know. But in cartoons, when that happens, they're always like, the babies are either, like, some of the babies are foxes, some of the babies are bunnies.

Linda Holmes (16:54)

But there's no question that going back to, like, one of my favorite genres, which is, like, the he and she solve crimes and mysteries. Right. Going back to, like, my love of, like, moonlighting and, like. No, but like, in, like, Scarecrow and Mrs. King and, like, all of this stuff that I have followed. As soon as you see, like, they're going to a fancy party and they're getting dressed separately, you know that they're gonna see each other, and it's gonna be like, I've never seen you dressed up before. And they're gonna be like, ooh. And typically, in one of these, will they. Won't they he and she solve mysteries? Kinds of things. That's like a moment where you develop, like, oh, they're going, ooh, I liked it.

Regina Barber (17:34)

I don't care. Well, I don't care.

Linda Holmes (17:35)

They do do it. But I think, for me, I. I think of friendships.

Regina Barber (17:39)

People are, like, putting too much romance into the first movie with those, like, sexy tigers. So of course it's gonna happen. Do you know what I mean? Like, they're giving people what they want. I know so many people that love that couple, so I'm okay with it.

Candace Lim (17:52)

Okay, here's the thing. I didn't like it. I have to voice my opinion and here's the deal. I'm not even against, like a rabbit and a fox falling in love.

Regina Barber (18:00)

I'm not racist here.

Gene Demby (18:01)

I think you were anti miscegenation. You would be out there in the street saying, like, this is not what God wants.

Candace Lim (18:07)

No, but here's the thing. Now, Vegeta, you are right. There are two hot characters in Zootopia 1. It is the police chief played by Idris Elba. Verified. And the hot tiger on the subway. Not even the dancers.

Regina Barber (18:19)

The dancer. There's a troop of them.

Candace Lim (18:21)

There's a troop. And the thing is, like, later on the scene that we're talking about, it's kind of a little Ocean's Eight where they break into a Met Gala sort of thing. They give Nick a tux, all of a sudden he's Oscar Isaac. She's in a dress. It's very Miss Congeniality. And I was like, someone's gaze is about to linger. Is someone about to dance? Is this When Harry Met Sally?

Regina Barber (18:42)

Ah, ah, ah.

Candace Lim (18:43)

Don't do this to me. I got really weirded out by it, but I don't know why.

Regina Barber (18:47)

I will say, can we bring up the gala? I was telling Linda before we started recording that I really think that there are clear frozen parallels. Because in the first one, there were clear frozen parallels. There was like the little girls dressed up as Elsa and Anna. There was Chief Bogo saying, let it go. There's all these, like, frozen parallels with this one, I really think, and I don't want to give too many spoilers, but there is a clear frozen parallel from person she meets at the dance. I'm just saying it's very clear.

Announcer (19:18)

I see it. I see it.

Linda Holmes (19:19)

Frozen parallels. There are a lot of little Disney jokes. There's a lot going on, for sure. I think I would say we enjoyed it. We were at different levels relative to the first one. I think Candace is our close closest thing to a naysayer, but I think even Candace found things to enjoy and appreciate in the movie. We want to know what you think about Zootopia 2. Find us on Facebook at facebook.com PCHH and on Letterboxd@letterboxd.com NPRpopculture we'll have a link in our episode description that brings us to the end of our show. Regina Barber, Candace Lim, Gene Demby. When they do Zootopia 3, I pretty much demand at the same panel being constituted.

Regina Barber (19:59)

I also demand it.

Linda Holmes (20:00)

Thank you all so much for being here.

Regina Barber (20:02)

I appreciate it.

Candace Lim (20:04)

Thank you.

Linda Holmes (20:05)

And just a reminder that signing up for pop culture Happy Hour plus is a great way to support our show and public radio and you get to listen to all of our episodes sponsor free. So please go find out more at plus.npr.org happyhour or visit the link in our Show Notes. This episode is produced by Mike Katzeff and Carly Rubin and edited by by our showrunner Jessica Reedy. Thanks to Carl Craft for their production support and hello, Come in provides our theme music. Thanks for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from npr. I'm Linda Holmes and we'll see you all next time.

Sponsor Voice (20:41)

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