Hayley Williams Interview! On the State of Paramore, Going Solo & Touring With Taylor Swift

Summary

Popcast: Hayley Williams Interview! On the State of Paramore, Going Solo & Touring With Taylor Swift

Host: The New York Times Popcast (Jon Caramanica, Joe Coscarelli)
Guest: Hayley Williams (Paramore)
Date: October 1, 2025

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Overview

This extended, candid conversation finds Hayley Williams reflecting on nearly two decades fronting Paramore, her recent journey into solo artistry, the complicated legacy of the 2000s pop punk scene, and her band's place in contemporary pop culture. The episode explores Hayley’s creative process, her personal and professional challenges, and the evolution of her voice both musically and politically—culminating with insights into Paramore’s future, her solo album “Ego Death at a Bachelorette Party,” and memorable moments on tour with Taylor Swift.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Years & Forming Paramore

• Moving to Franklin, TN & Early Aspirations
  • Hayley describes moving from Mississippi, being homeschooled, and meeting Zach Farro in a church-based learning group (04:12-05:44).

  “When I met Zach…the first day, I kind of just knew instantly, like, my people.” — Hayley Williams [05:44]

• Quick Rise & Industry Influence
  • Paramore formed amid intense industry interest, often pressured for Hayley to become a solo artist, especially by labels seeking “the next Avril Lavigne” (06:29-10:10).

  “It was so devastating for me as a kid to feel like I was somehow betraying my friends.” — Hayley Williams [11:33]

2. Navigating the Music Business & Assertiveness

• Label Pressures & “Original Sin”
  • Discussion about Hayley signing to Atlantic at 15, the band’s evolving legal/business structure, and ongoing discussion of her as “the signed artist” and whether Paramore would fracture (12:16-33:58).

  “I always felt we were so supported by our immediate team …we kind of got a dad out of our relationship with our manager.” — Hayley Williams [33:58]

3. Identity, Image, and Misogyny in Pop Punk

• Scene Experiences & Sexism
  • Candid stories of touring as one of the only women in the Warped Tour scene; public scrutiny, objectification, and learning to be “bullish” in the face of harassment and industry misogyny (16:36-18:42).

  “You can’t know that you’re swimming with sharks when you’re in the middle of it… you have to just keep your head down.” — Hayley Williams [18:03]

• Reflection on “Misery Business” and Feminist Critique
  • The ongoing discomfort over Paramore’s breakout single "Misery Business," retiring and later reclaiming it, and the way internet criticism influenced her self-awareness and feminism (20:12-26:15).

  “I think I knew immediately. I think I was convicted, and I felt the weight of that conviction and was like, yeah, I got a lot to learn.” — Hayley Williams [26:04]

4. Growth, Relationships, and Band Turmoil

• Band Dynamics & Breakups
  • Multiple lineup changes, public drama, and Hayley’s feelings as the scapegoat in public narratives about Paramore’s changing lineup (28:03-29:54).

  “It was devastating to go through. It was just like, you know, I’m a child of divorce that’s just never stopped going through a divorce.” — Hayley Williams [28:24]

• On “Airplanes” & Crossover Opportunities
  • Hayley recalls how being featured on B.o.B’s “Airplanes” was an accident (“It was sold to me as a Lupe Fiasco song ...I don’t really acknowledge it. Why should I?”) [30:30-31:25].

5. Going Solo: Personal Growth and Artistic Freedom

• Decision to Go Solo
  • Inspired by bandmate Zach Farro’s own creative journey, Hayley realized she too could pursue side projects without betraying the band identity (34:28-37:07).

  “I want to be an artist, you know, until I die, and I think that’s going to look a thousand ways.” — Hayley Williams [36:00]

• Writing as Therapy
  • Solo albums (starting with “Petals for Armor” and continuing with “Ego Death at a Bachelorette Party”) grew from a need for catharsis and to process her divorce, mental health, and the grind of fame (37:12-38:15).

6. Community, Influence, and the Future of Paramore

• Expanding the Paramore Community
  • The diversity of Paramore’s fanbase, especially among Black fans, is discussed along with the role of inclusivity in shows and the band’s evolution toward a broader pop audience (50:28-56:07).

  “That’s the only feeling that I’ve ever wanted since I was a kid in Mississippi. I just wanted to feel a part of something, and I wanted to feel safe in it.” — Hayley Williams [55:01]

• Touring with Taylor Swift & Seeing Influence
  • Hayley reflects on Taylor Swift’s support and the sense of full-circle influence as Paramore’s sound echoes in artists like Swift and Olivia Rodrigo (64:22-65:51).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Industry Pressure:

“Paramore songs are being shipped off to labels as Hayley Williams. And it was so devastating for me as a kid to feel like I was somehow betraying my friends. … I fought like hell for my friends and we ultimately won.” — Hayley Williams [11:33]

On “Misery Business” and growth:

“I’m not seeing a clear picture most of the time. … I just felt embarrassment and I felt like I. I’m better. I know better than this now.” — Hayley Williams [24:00]

On Going Solo:

“I want to be an artist, you know, until I die, and I think that’s going to look a thousand ways.” — Hayley Williams [36:00]

On Fan Community:

“I’m so proud of that because I’m very passionate that we have a long way to go in making … people feel that they belong in the world.” — Hayley Williams [55:20]

On Politics & Speaking Up:

“I felt like I had to learn on my own how to do it, how to talk about that stuff. … You’re kind of unlikable when you talk about the same issue over and over again with passion.” — Hayley Williams [58:14-59:30]

On the Future of Paramore:

“Paramore’s not ever going away. … But I love—it’s my favorite band. … This time around in my career, I’m finally willing to like, let that happen.” — Hayley Williams [67:17-69:59]

Songwriting Pride:

“The lyric is: ‘The south will not rise again until it’s paid for every sin / Strange Fruit, Hard Bargain / till the roots Southern Gotham…’ I felt like a real lyricist when I finished that.” — Hayley Williams [74:08]

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Important Timestamps

• 04:12–10:10 Early Days in Franklin, TN, Band Forming, and Christian Music Scene
• 16:36–18:42 Warped Tour, Being the Only Woman, Early Scene Misogyny
• 20:12–26:15 Critique of “Misery Business” and Evolving Feminism
• 28:14–29:54 Dealing with Internal Band Breakups and Public Drama
• 33:58–37:07 Struggles/Independence with the Label, Going Solo
• 50:28–56:07 Paramore’s Diverse Audience, Representation in Rock
• 64:22–65:51 Taylor Swift Support, Paramore’s Legacy
• 74:08 Hayley’s Proud Lyrics in “True Believer”

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Lightning Round Highlights (from 70:49 on):

• Best Lyric:

  “‘The south will not rise again until it’s paid for every sin / Strange Fruit, Hard Bargain till the roots Southern Gotham…’ I’m so proud of it.” [74:08]

• OG/Advice Giver:

  “My best friend, Brian O’Connor. … He’s the person that I’ve talked to the most through all my seasons and all my horrible decision making.” [76:25]

• Letting Someone Down:

  “I think when you start to have boundaries and choose yourself, it pisses a lot of people off. … I spent my whole life protecting Paramore like we were the Lost Boys and I was Wendy.” [78:31-79:17]

• Wish You Rapped On:

  “2 Live Crew. Pop That Pussy. Yeah.” [80:40] (Recounting her parents listening to the track in Mississippi)

• Go-to Gas Station / Bodega Snack:

  “Ham and cheese on a roll with an orange drink… Arizona green tea … almonds or walnuts.” [82:19-83:34]

• Snack Test:
  Hayley introduces the hosts to “Candy Kittens” (wild strawberry flavor) — a lively debate about the merits of vegan UK candy ensues [84:08–89:49].

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Tone & Takeaway

Hayley’s warmth, humor, and emotional candor shine through as she fields tough questions about gender, legacy, creativity, and the struggles inherent to both band and solo life. The conversation is both nostalgic and progressive—looking back on lessons learned while envisioning a future where Paramore, her solo artistry, and their community of fans continue to be safe, inclusive spaces for catharsis and connection.

For anyone who hasn’t listened, this episode offers a rich tapestry of personal reflection, music history, and creative resilience—told in Hayley’s open, unvarnished voice.

Transcript

[John Horn]

Mont Blanc invites you to use life's quiet moments to pause, reflect, and put pen to paper.

[Hayley Williams]

Chapter one. Oh, no, no, no, no. Part one. Mmm. Perfect.

[John Horn]

The mountains are impressive. Oh, I wish you were here to see them.

[Hayley Williams]

Dear diary, meet my new writing companion.

[John Horn]

The Meister stuck for every journey, the perfect companion awaits Mont Blanc. Let's write. Visit montblanc.com for exquisitely crafted writing instruments, leather goods, and more. You're a star. You're. You're a star.

[Hayley Williams]

You're a star.

[John Horn]

You're a star. You are a star.

[Hayley Williams]

Oh, my God. Everybody is. It's our affirmation.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's our. It's our daily affirmation.

[John Horn]

Yeah, we just like to let everybody know that they're. That we're happy that they're here.

[Hayley Williams]

I love that, man. That's really. This is a surprisingly very cozy interview situation.

[Joe Coscarelli]

We're going to get way cozier.

[John Horn]

We're at.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I would say we're in, like, a.

[John Horn]

Six of cozy, but we're gonna get to a ten.

[Hayley Williams]

Please get some of those unhide, fuzzy blankets.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You want us to go full Call her daddy?

[John Horn]

Yeah, yeah, no, no. That's kind of our goal.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Pajamas.

[Hayley Williams]

I wouldn't. I wear pajamas. I love a suit. A pajama suit, actually. I do back that.

[John Horn]

Do you have that, like. Do you have, like, multiple sets?

[Hayley Williams]

Maybe not anymore, but I definitely do. I did. I had, like, two or three that went on tour with me everywhere.

[Joe Coscarelli]

What do you wear to sleep? I've never asked you this very intimate question.

[John Horn]

T shirt and boxers.

[Hayley Williams]

Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[John Horn]

T shirt and boxers. Like, I used to, like. I remember when I was in my 20s, thinking that it would be a mark of being an adult if I had pajama sets. Oh, right. So I just bought two or three. Right. I was like, no, no, I'm grown. Like, with buttons. Yeah, with buttons. Like a whole thing. There used to be a store next to opening ceremony called Sleepy Jones.

[Hayley Williams]

Oh, I know. Sleepy Jones.

[John Horn]

That's the one, right?

[Hayley Williams]

You had Sleepy Jones.

[John Horn]

I did. I had Sleepy Jones, but every time I put it on, I'd be, why am I wearing a suit to bed at a certain point. No, no, no. They all. They all went to Housing works. Cheers.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Secondhand John Carmonica pajamas.

[John Horn]

Rare. Rare.

[Hayley Williams]

Those are expensive. Those are fancy pajamas.

[John Horn]

Well, now they belong to the world.

[Hayley Williams]

I love that.

[John Horn]

It's the world's pajamas.

[Hayley Williams]

That's a beautiful, beautiful thing to share.

[Joe Coscarelli]

All right, shall we?

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah, let's. Let's work.

[John Horn]

Welcome to the New York Times Podcast Your crumbledown castle of music. Music and criticism. I'm John Caramonica and I'm the critic.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I'm Joe Coscarelli and I'm the reporter.

[Hayley Williams]

I'm Haley and I think I'm supposed. I'm the artist, I'm the singer.

[John Horn]

You're whatever you want to be.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Who are you?

[Hayley Williams]

That's what we're trying to figure out today.

[John Horn]

We got 90 minutes.

[Hayley Williams]

You guys help me.

[John Horn]

We got 90 minutes. Paramore is the band that Haley has fronted for two decades alongside Zack Farrow and Taylor Yorke, with a revolving cast of other members.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Multi platinum grammy winning humongous band. You guys started in a scene that was near and dear to my heart. The sort of mall punk Warped Tour set.

[John Horn]

You see the long tail of Paramore not only in many generations of pop punk that followed, but you see it in the likes of Taylor Swift, Olivia Rodrigo and plenty more young female singer songwriters.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Across six albums, Paramore became known for peppy, high energy hits like Ain't it.

[Hayley Williams]

Fun, Ain't it fun living in the happy world. That's what you get when you let.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Your heart misery business. After long resisting the pull of a solo career, Haley began putting out albums under her own name. In the year 2020, the third one of those, ego death at a bachelorette party is out now after 20 years with Atlant Records, a deal that Haley signed when she was 15 years old. The band is now independent and we're here in part to talk to Haley about what the future holds. Thank you for being here.

[Hayley Williams]

Thanks. Thank you. I'm very. This is. I'm very excited. I, I watch these and I, I think, I think I, I like this already.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I was wondering if you could start by just telling us a little bit about that moment in your life. You moved to Franklin, Tennessee. You meet these guys who end up being your friends and coworkers for the next two decades. And more than that, of course, it's.

[John Horn]

Such a wild thing to hear it phrased at.

[Hayley Williams]

It's true, we clocked in every day.

[Joe Coscarelli]

But like, these are your creative partners who you met at age 13, 14, 15. I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about that moment of discovery and sort of how it interplayed with interest from the broader music business. I assume that must have been pretty exciting for you guys as kids.

[Hayley Williams]

Well, yeah, I don't know that we fully grasped it. You know, I wanted to be. I wanted to be in a band so bad from such a young age. I, I don't know what what gave me the idea, I. I think I just had a deep, like, some sort of longing in me that was like, I gotta find my people. And so when I met Zach at school day one of this, like, little homeschool thing that we were doing, I didn't really cut it in public school once we moved from. My mom and I moved from Mississippi, my accent was so thick.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Can you do a little bit of your Mississippi accent?

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah, I. What I do know is that we moved, like, right before Christmas and my birthday that year. And I just remember realizing that when I said Santa Claus, that just wasn't really.

[John Horn]

Wow.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Even in Tennessee, that wasn't gonna fly.

[Hayley Williams]

People in Nashville don't have accents to me at all.

[John Horn]

Little known fact.

[Hayley Williams]

And I remember pract. Practicing, like, realizing, okay, none of the kids at school talk like me. And I'm trying to emulate the way that they're talking. When I met Zach the first day, I kind of just knew instantly, like, my people. It's because he really only talked to me through the language of, like, what bands do you like? What me? You know, like, I want you to hear what me and my brother do. Like, we have a band. And so I was in heaven before I even joined the band. And I. I was the second singer of Paramore. I was not the first kicked out. The first singer over Instant Messenger. AOL Instant Messenger. Wow.

[John Horn]

Tight.

[Joe Coscarelli]

That's how all breakups happened at the time.

[John Horn]

Yeah. Artistic, legal, personal. Yeah. Sociopolitical.

[Joe Coscarelli]

If you haven't dumped or been dumped via aim, you're not my friend.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah. Yeah. You really haven't lived. But I just. As soon as I got to start playing with them, I felt like locked into my purpose in life. And again, I'm 13, 14 years old, but I kind of believe this is all hindsight. And I don't know how much of this is real or if it's that thing that you do that where you kind of. You make up what you. What makes sense in your adult brain. But I really believe we were so close to the Christian music industry. Like. Like there were just industry people everywhere. Every coffee shop where, you know, if my mom would drop me off to do school in the morning at just like, at Starbucks while she went to public school to teach, we would be in downtown Franklin and, like, you know, DC Talk. All these bands. DC Talk.

[John Horn]

Just hanging at the coffee shop.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah.

[John Horn]

DC Talk. A bunch of Belmont grads hanging out. Unbelievable.

[Hayley Williams]

I just feel like we were so close to that world that as soon as we started playing shows, I And when I say shows, I mean, like, we played at youth group. We played the school talent show. We might have played like a couple of little all ages things in town. And I feel like we are. We got attention really quickly from people who had this sort of like, whatever connection.

[John Horn]

Yeah, they had a system that they could put you in.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

What was happening in music at the time that you think they saw you in dialogue with? Was it like the Avril Lavigne of the world?

[Hayley Williams]

I think it was Avril Lavigne because, you know, the music that the guys and I loved was very much. I mean, the people we looked up to played like 300, 400 cap rooms. I wanted to be Josh Scoggin from the Chariot. I didn't really care what was going on. I mean, I would watch MTV for fun. But it was. It was a really big deal when, like, pop punk became the thing on trl, you know, that sort of was the closest thing to the world that the guys and I were interested in. We were into heavier music. And I don't know. I think, yeah, the Avril thing made people see dollar signs. And I also think that's why I was sort plucked out of it. And I kept trying to be like, no. And I pulled the guys in with me. But that was such a confusing time because to be a kid who feels like. I mean, man, my mom and I really went through a lot in Mississippi. And my mom is such a survivor. We made it to Nashville and then I met my friends. I felt like this is my purpose. And I thought, we'll get signed to some cool little label that's like on the back of one of these CDs.

[John Horn]

Yeah, right.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And they'll make pins for us and.

[John Horn]

Kids will put them on their back mail order. We'll do like. Like sending money order and get two pieces of vinyl. And that'll be.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And that'll be it. And that'll be my life.

[Hayley Williams]

We'll play little clubs like the bands that we love play. I mean, I had seen, like, I. I think the biggest show I'd seen at the time was when I wanted to see Thursday and they were opening for afi. And Coheed was on that tour that.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Definitely saw that tour in Orlando, Florida, for sure.

[Hayley Williams]

Oh, my God. Where. I wonder where it was at House of Blues. Yeah, House of Blues for sure. Played. Played the worst Paramore show of my life there.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I was probably there also.

[Hayley Williams]

We have so much to talk about with that, but I. Yeah, I feel like it just happened so quick. It Was like, found my people. We're writing songs that we love, we're doing these random shows, we're really too young to play shows. And then the next thing I know, I'm meeting L A Reid, Clive Davis, Jason Flom. I'm like, you know that guy Bob Levset's is writing about me.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Wait, when was your first left sets letter?

[Hayley Williams]

I feel like I was 15.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Come on, we didn't pull that out of the archive.

[John Horn]

I'm just like, I wish I had my other computer which has all my old emails on it.

[Hayley Williams]

It was just a short two years of time though, from getting there to like, oh my God, people want me to be a solo artist. I'm just now finding my space and my comfort, playing this kind of music with my friends. And every meeting I would go into, I would just be like, you know, I mean, I already, I write, I already write songs with my friends and they'd be like, oh, well, that's nice. Maybe you should go try and write with some other people too, just to like hone your skills. And, you know, I'm 15, I'm like, oh, okay, yeah, sure. I met one of my favorite people in the world though, doing that. And he actually ended up engineering Ego Death because I was like, you know, we never got to work together properly and you've supported me so much. And he, Roger is his name. He saw me go through what happened with the label and he saw them tell me with one face that like, oh yeah, you love Thursday, you love these bands, like you guys can be like that. But then he would hear the meetings where they would say, you need to write pop songs with her. And I had a development deal with this guy that I guess is really famous for screwing bands over. And the reason that he caught my attention was that he said certain artist names that my 15 year old brain was like, oh yeah, he's failure self. You know, like artists that we were really into as kids. And then the next, again, the next thing I know, I'm Paramore songs are being shipped off to labels as Hayley Williams. And it was so devastating for me as a kid to feel like I was somehow betraying my friends, you know, it just, I'm still, I think I'm still processing it. And it took getting off the label and being done with that time in my life to be able to have the hindsight and to be able to have grace for myself for not knowing and also to realize like, I was so young. But I fought like hell for my friends and we ultimately won.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You found a compromise.

[Hayley Williams]

We did it.

[Joe Coscarelli]

How did you figure out how to.

[John Horn]

Hold on to have both?

[Joe Coscarelli]

You found a way to please the powers that be and work with your friends.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah, I mean part of it was ignorance because I don't think I ever could have realized what a system we were entering into. But we. So in the process of trying to figure out if there's going to be a label deal or not, our manager Mark kind of swooped in and really saved us. We didn't. We of course had no idea that that was the time frame when labels like Feel by Ramen were kind of being upstream to Atlantic.

[Joe Coscarelli]

The majors basically saw the BO in.

[John Horn]

Independent labels, third wave, emo, whatever, which.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Is exactly the same thing. And it happened in rap a decade earlier, which is all the majors see the successes of the smaller regional labels, the cash monies of the world and then sort of enter into partnerships with them and then they're able to upstream the artists.

[John Horn]

Well, the ones that they think have potential. Yeah, broad potential.

[Hayley Williams]

Mark was like when he swooped in to help me and my family stop this development deal situation. And this guy, I don't even want to give the name because it just, he doesn't deserve it. But he was like, well, you know, Atlantic's working with a label that works with bands that you guys actually listen to or like and kind of want to have more that type of career. So I met John Janik at a Cheesecake Factory somewhere in Florida.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Incredible.

[Hayley Williams]

And like talk to him about the bands that we liked and the career that I thought I would be happy with and we would be happy. And I was just, again I was just like, we just want to get in a van. Like we. And we did and we. That all of it ended up happening. But I really think it was a mix of pure ignorance and just. And like, and hard headedness of being.

[John Horn]

A teenager in that first like wave. Like once you're on the label and you're starting to put on music and you are in the van. I have a memory of seeing you guys play. Am I misremembering? Like were you kind in coordinated outfits? Potentially, yeah. Like, tell me a little bit about the first iteration of the presentation of the band.

[Hayley Williams]

Well, the first year 2005, I was just, just, I was just wearing the guy's T shirts. So you know, we were all sharing laundry at this point and so we were in the van. I didn't really, I didn't pay attention to anything other than box dye for my hair. I just wanted to have red hair and.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And you had the hair. It was the sort of visual hallmark of the band, if not the scene in general between you and Pete Wentz.

[Hayley Williams]

Like, that was.

[Joe Coscarelli]

That's it.

[Hayley Williams]

And I couldn't. I would have never realized that in the moment, but it was just what I was into. And we just looked, like, so raggedy, but so cute on stage. We were kids. And then the next year, 2006, which ended up being the year we did our first headlining tour, which blew my mind. I told our whole team back then. I was like, we're not. I don't like. Yes. People seem excited about us, but this is a whole headlining tour seems really soon. And so we decided we're going to kind of dress. I think it was because we had done the video for the song Emergency, and we kind of wanted to pull that in. Do you remember the 2004, 2005, there was this, like, Christian hardcore metalcore thing that was happening where, like, bands wore J Crew and shit, like, sort of.

[Joe Coscarelli]

A little bit preppy.

[Hayley Williams]

You dressed up Norma Jean. They, like, had a thing.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Some popped collars.

[Hayley Williams]

Popped collars. There was a thing. There was a whole thing.

[Joe Coscarelli]

My high school is a quick Florida for my senior. My senior T shirt is not a T shirt. It's a. The polo. And if you pop the collar, it says, like, seniors class.

[John Horn]

Are you serious?

[Hayley Williams]

Wow.

[John Horn]

I can't believe that, like, Jonathan Anderson hasn't referenced that.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Pop colors were.

[John Horn]

Spring, summer 27. I want to see that. Jonathan Anderson. I want to see that on the Runway.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Like, you mentioned afi. Like, they're wearing crazy matching.

[John Horn]

Am I right in saying the Hives.

[Hayley Williams]

Oh, the Hives were. When we played a festival with the Hives, it was such a big deal for them to walk through catering. You're just like. It's a spectacle. And I do think we liked a little bit of that. But also, like, we'd get made fun of, too, on Warp Tour because, you know, back then, also, you. You're on Warp Tour. Everyone is bragging about how long it's been since they've showered.

[John Horn]

Yeah, right.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You're just trying to go as long as possible until somebody passes out at your.

[Hayley Williams]

At your set, which happened all the time. I just like, man, what a different time. But the fashion, it's so interesting. During Riot is when I really started resenting it. And I kind of. I had the hair, and then I had a little while. I would say through the first year of Brand New Eyes, where I was like, I am not dressing up. I don't want to be pigeonholed as this, but I was.

[John Horn]

But it was your choice, like, to do that. That wasn't like, the label, like, the big, bad label guy being like, you should wear suits. You should look like the highest. We have our chief suit officer coming to the meeting.

[Hayley Williams]

Taylor. I. I genuinely loved it, and I loved when I actually thought it was cool that the guys thought it was cool, you know, because, I mean, as a young girl in the scene, you just get absolutely reamed for every choice that you make. I. I, like, definitely wouldn't touch makeup for the first year. I just didn't want to be called out for any differences.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Right. And of course, that's the way that boys at the time, like, they only know how to interact with you.

[Hayley Williams]

It's high school.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's high school.

[John Horn]

But I'm. So you guys didn't go to emotionally sophisticated high school, like, Warped Tour?

[Joe Coscarelli]

I don't think the most emotionally sophisticated of spaces. You were the only girl on those tours, basically. The only girl.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah, there were a few. You can't know that you're swimming with sharks when you're in the middle of it. You have to just keep your head down. And like, yes, I would get comments. I mean, dude, the things that no Effect said about me from stage when I was underage and not, wow. Like, you can't. You. You have to keep your head down. And I think I was also, like, I was saying earlier, just young enough to sort of be. I was, like, bullish in the face of it. I was gonna heckle back, but I was gonna just keep moving and. And be not. I don't think I was ignorant to it. I just don't think I had the time.

[John Horn]

Right.

[Hayley Williams]

I was sort of, like, improving myself.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Right. It's like, what would Kathleen Hannah do? But also, I'm a kid. Like, I can't. You know, am I going to punch a man in the mouth to preserve the sanctity of my personal space or whatever? Like, have you had the chance to sort of go back? You mentioned the guys in no Effects. Like, have you had. Have they apologized to you? You know, have you said to them.

[John Horn]

Hey, that wasn't good?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Things really stuck with me and affected my life with. With anybody from that scene that you feel lasting scars from.

[Hayley Williams]

That's a really. That's actually. It's good for me to think about because. No. But also, yes, on Warped Tour. I remember saying something to Fat Mike after he made a comment about me and my mom while he was on stage in Nashville. It's embarrassing, for sure. But I also was sheltered enough and I was, like, young enough that I ended up seeing him in production, and I called him out for it, and he kind of didn't really have much to say. I don't know, it felt like he was trying to have that moment with me. We played a festival in Russia with them. It was the first time we'd seen them in probably six years. And I could just feel it, and I don't think I was really ready to allow it. I don't know how I would feel today about it, because I actually am. I'm not positive that it would come from a place of real understanding and empathy. I don't need the apology. I feel grown enough and supported enough to be able to speak up for that part of myself.

[Joe Coscarelli]

What were your moments of awakening, like, along the way within that scene? Which, you know, I think looking back, a lot of people are like, not only are these lyrics misogynist lyrics, but, like, these men were maybe behaving inappropriately with fans and colleagues. And of course, this is not unique to the emo and pop punk scene, but this was a specific moment in time. And there were. I remember myself, you know, having grown up in and around it, when these questions started getting asked about, you know, what. What. What is the feminist read on this?

[Hayley Williams]

It was misery business for me.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It was.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah, it was. Especially then I paid a lot of attention to what was happening on the Internet because I was 18, 17, 18, and that was kind of where I lived too. And I started to see some papers or maybe blog posts that were written by. I would assume they're like, feminist groups that were maybe at, like, colleges and stuff. These were girls or people my age that were talking about just what it meant to be a young woman, not only in the scene, but just in the world at that time. This is like, post mean girls, you know, Like, I do think there were more cultural conversations around, like, what we now call, like, a pick me and. And. And. And internalized misogyny. So I started really reflecting on that. And funny enough, it was at a time where I had sort of gotten into a relationship that was just so unhealthy. It was. I'm really. I've. I've always been really careful about how I talk about it because I just. I grew up in that world. There's a lot of. There was a lot of definitely abuse and just people that shouldn't have got away with stuff. But I. I know what my experience was, and I wasn't old enough to have it.

[Joe Coscarelli]

To be in that relationship.

[Hayley Williams]

To be in that relationship. I was not. I mean, my prefrontal cortex had another seven years, six years, I don't know, to go. So I think that unknowingly I was learning from that. And at the same time, I was seeing this discourse online about me using the word horror in a song and me going after a girl that we went to junior high with. It was such a kind of like, journal. Yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And it must have been intense because that's also your breakout single. Right. Like, that's.

[Hayley Williams]

It's like why we're here, strangely.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And you've been on a crazy journey with that song for the decade plus since where you know, at a certain moment, you guys disowned it and said you would no longer play it anymore. And then I think the last time I saw you, you spoke about bringing it back into the setlist.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Talk us through a little bit about that decision both, you know, to distance yourself from it, but then to also embrace it. Because I think, you know, it reminds me of Taylor Swift and had the same experience with a song with Better than Revenge on Speak now. And it was a conversation again when she re recorded it. And, you know, this idea of do we claim things we wrote as teenagers that are important to our fans and our arc, you know, so I'm interested in where you stand on it now because it was such a fulcrum moment in your consciousness.

[Hayley Williams]

I mean, I was very embarrassed. That was my first. That was my initial, like, eye opening moment. The aha moment that I had with myself is like, oh, my God. I don't. I have one girlfriend from school that I still talk to. I'm surrounded by guys all the time. I'm not seeing a clear picture most of the time. And now I'm seeing this discourse. I'm like, I just felt embarrassment and I felt like I. I'm better. I know better than this now. And I started. I mean, it took us years before I knew how to really talk about it. We continued to play it, and then it was. It was really. It was. When Zach came back to the band, we were getting ready to do touring for After Laughter and After Laughter, there was a growth spurt that happened personally, I think for all of us as friends and as individuals, people. I. I was like, I can't sing this anymore. It feels so strange. Tonight we're playing this song for the last time, for a very long time. I don't want to be at a festival and have the footage that. That goes out from Bonnaroo be. Of this song, it's just not. It doesn't even really represent how we sound anymore. Like, that we're. We're three albums removed from it. And so I just. I had a lot of frustration about the fact that we were expected to play it, and I knew that we would always be expected to play it. And we. We kind of, like, would do it on certain tours, and we. We wouldn't do it. Almost like a soft. Whatever the opposite of a launch is.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You know, soft cancellation.

[Hayley Williams]

Yes, we were.

[John Horn]

Soft retreat. Yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

But it was also 2017. Right. So this dovetails with the. Me too.

[Hayley Williams]

Yes.

[John Horn]

When you were getting the initial pushback online, did you immediately understand that it was, in essence, correct? Were you sort of like, no. In my world, with my band, in my scene, like, this is like, yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I don't hate women. I just hate this girl.

[Hayley Williams]

That's a different conversation inside of. I think. I think we have that conversation in the context of feminism all the time. Because you can still not like people. It doesn't really matter who they are.

[Joe Coscarelli]

But women can be assholes too.

[Hayley Williams]

We definitely can be. I. I think I knew immediately. I think I was convicted, and I felt the weight of that conviction and was like, yeah, I got a lot to learn.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Talk about after Laughter as this moment of freedom and growing up for you guys, it was the reunion of the band after a lot of lineup changes, and that's 2017 and then the next Paramore album. This is why I think it's the first two Paramore albums to have the same lineup. Is that correct?

[Hayley Williams]

Who are we? What even is Paramore?

[Joe Coscarelli]

I mean, it's a great. It's a great question. It's a theory. Yeah. But I wonder, those ups and downs, the. I assume for you it was like an onslaught of gossip and rumor and innuendo, and especially if you were following stuff online like, oh, the band is too much about Haley. I'm quitting. Oh, this person's suing, obviously, as an adult, you know. Now, like, most people didn't know that was happening. Only, like, only people who really. Only a slice of people. But I imagine that the turmoil that you were feeling from it was pretty intense, especially given the quote unquote, original sin of Paramore, which is that you are the signed artist.

[Hayley Williams]

Wow. The original sin of Paramore is very nice. You are a writer.

[Joe Coscarelli]

That's, you know, that's why they pay us the big bucks. That was. That was off the dome.

[John Horn]

I didn't write that down.

[Joe Coscarelli]

No, not yet.

[John Horn]

Not yet. What the hell?

[Hayley Williams]

This is how I find out.

[John Horn]

I have to. Seriously, I have to make some calls.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You know, I think back to that 2011 MTV, like damage control.

[Hayley Williams]

Oh, my God. I was just talking about this because it's just. I don't know, it's life. Can you imagine us doing? Why?

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's like it was like open. You know, like when you go on Oprah and you're like, I'm so sorry, Oprah. Like, but it was MTV News.

[Hayley Williams]

Terrible mistake.

[John Horn]

Wait, tell me. I don't know if I've ever actually seen it.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You should go back and watch it. It is like.

[John Horn]

It's so awkward.

[Joe Coscarelli]

What was your experience of going through that and did it ruin the band for you? Because I think that's what helps lead us to this solo moment.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Both the freedom that you eventually found in Paramore, but also just how rocky it was basically for those full 15, 20 years.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah. I mean, not unlike the internalized misogyny conversation I do think it is. It has forced a lot of self reflection that has been good for me. Like, it's. It's good to get humbled by your own chaos at times. I think you gotta look in the mirror about it. But the things that would become the story or the clickbait or what was so far from really how it felt to go through it with your childhood friends. That's just so delicate and such intimate relationships. People still, I mean, even fans that have grown up with us the whole two decades, they just can't know. And I have to remember that. I have to remember that there's really no. There's no possible way for me to explain it so that everyone gets it. But it was devastating to go through. It was just like, you know, I'm a child of divorce that's just never stopped going through a divorce. I've had literal divorces in my life and then I've had all these friendship breakups. And I definitely felt like I was always the scapegoat or made out to be the villain. And I've had plenty of time to sort of like pout about that and shake my fist and sort of try to get my. Find my center of balance again. And I think I can access anger about it. And I can also access another part of me now that's more grown up. That's like. Who doesn't have these stories with their friends? Who even.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Especially when you're in business with your friends. Yeah, that's way different.

[Hayley Williams]

It's just a family It's. It's a marriage. It's all the metaphors you hear bands talk about. And we. We have not. We've just not navigated it smoothly.

[John Horn]

Can you talk a little bit about, you know, Joe Mention's the original son of the band. You being the signed artist throughout those first five to 10 years, there must have been things that were presented to you.

[Hayley Williams]

They're sort of like, trying to, like, pull me away. Yeah.

[John Horn]

It's just.

[Hayley Williams]

You, the first one.

[John Horn]

They're nice. Yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Bob was the beneficiary.

[John Horn]

Yes. Right.

[Hayley Williams]

Can we pretend that Airplanes in the night sky like shooting stars. I can really use a wish right now. Right now. I was just talking about this the other day, too, but, like, that was sold to me as a Lupe Fiasco song. I was a big fan. I was very excited.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Sure. This is Airplanes.

[Hayley Williams]

Airplanes.

[John Horn]

Airplanes. Not by Paramount. Atlantic Collab. Yes.

[Hayley Williams]

It was like I got to know what it felt like to be the voice on a hip hop song. And it was Lupe Fiasco, which was so cool.

[John Horn]

Yeah.

[Hayley Williams]

Kick Bush and then. Yeah, my favorite one. But they. Yeah, they. They switched it up. They were having, I guess, some success with Bob and there was nothing I could do anyway. But at the end of the day, like, it was. It was fun, but it was like, we've never played that song live. Why would we? I don't really acknowledge it. Why. Why should.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I mean, it's a great hook.

[Hayley Williams]

It's a great hook. I didn't write it right. I think Skyler Gray wrote it. It was, like I said, like an experiment for me. And the guys are support it. I. I mean, there were a lot of things that I even wanted to do that they weren't supportive of. And when I say they, I mostly mean Zach's brother. He was an ass, but.

[John Horn]

Yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Who then left the band.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah, he then left, but, like, I turned down the end credits of Jennifer's body for him. You know what I mean? Like, there's so much lore. There's so much.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Who doesn't want to watch?

[John Horn]

What's the downside?

[Hayley Williams]

I guess growing up Fundamental Christian, you know, it, like, didn't agree.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Demonic film.

[Hayley Williams]

It's the best kind.

[John Horn]

Yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

On the closing credits instead, I think.

[Hayley Williams]

I think they went with Hole.

[Joe Coscarelli]

If you know, you know.

[John Horn]

Yes. If you know, you know, was the label at that point proactively, like, sensing that there was tension potentially between you and folks in the band and sort of being like, maybe if we just offer her this. What if we just pull you in for a Meeting, you know, like, all the things that you would see in the film of the. Like the scene where you show up to the meeting and it's only. You were invited, and then they're like.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah, they ambush me. And.

[John Horn]

I mean, were there things, other opportunities besides the Jennifer's body thing that you felt were an explicit attempt to. To pull me away, to draw and to literally drive such a wedge into the band that they could just have you all to themselves?

[Hayley Williams]

I. I think it was just built in at this point that I knew everyone wanted me away.

[John Horn]

Yeah.

[Hayley Williams]

For. For any. For whatever reason, because it's easier to put one person on the COVID of a magazine because, you know, like, they can sell a name easier than a ban, you know? You know, I just. I assumed that in everything. And I didn't go to meetings by myself because of it. I didn't really do anything alone because of it. And I was very defensive in the way that a teenager can be defensive and sort of like, you're ruining my life about it. Until then, I was like an adult, you know, and I. But the good news for us is I always felt we were so supported by our immediate team. Like, we've had the same manager our entire career, and we have new team members now that, like, have only made it stronger and better. But I'm. I feel like in a weird way, we kind of got a dad out of. Out of our relationship with our manager. And he was really protective of us, and not only of the band and how we wanted the band to come across, but he was protective of us as people.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And we talk about these exterior forces driving a wedge in the band. There's also these interior forces in the band seemingly driving a wedge between yourselves, your former. Your former bandmates. And. And was that resistance that you were talking about to going out on your own and being singled out? Like, is that why it took you so long to make a solo album? And what changed in 2019, 2020, that allowed you to make that leap and put out music under your own name?

[Hayley Williams]

I was a huge fan of what Zach was doing with his first solo project was called Half Noise. He had gone away for, like, seven years from the band and really found himself. I believe he. He found himself in his 20s in a way that Taylor and I still haven't.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Because you didn't get off the ride.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah, we didn't get off the ride. Arrested Development is a thing. Zach sort of like. He, like, fucked off to New Zealand, lived there for a while, made music. He kind of got to he sort of started over. He did, like, a couple band tours and just made music like that he wanted to. And I. When he came back into the band, he had just made this record called Sudden Feeling, and I was. Was such a fan of it. I was so excited that he was back in my life. But I was also just enamored by this new. I didn't know this side of him because he just really wasn't allowed, like.

[John Horn]

There'S no space for it.

[Hayley Williams]

He wasn't allowed to be a real part of the creative conversation, and that wasn't my doing. That was, like, bad family dynamics in the band. Like, I. I think Zach, you know, like, people don't know this, but when we were writing, Zach would sometimes come in the room with me while I would just be, like, working away, trying to figure out my parts, and he would suggest stuff. So, like, the woes and that's what you get are him. There's background parts. There's, like, background parts on some of our first demos that are. Him telling me what to do.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Like, he's sneaking contributions to you.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah, yeah. And I'm really proud of him because he's come out from under the thumb of, I think, family dynamics that were unhealthy for him. And I was so inspired by that courage and obviously the sound as well. And I just. I don't know. We. We knew we were gonna take a break from the band, and I just thought, he's doing it, and it's not a big deal. It's actually not. It's feeding the band, if anything else. And I'm also a fan of bands like Talking Heads or Radiohead. All these members have their own projects, you know, And I think I was just interested in that life because I still don't really know how this all shakes out. Like, we're just gonna keep getting older, and I want to be an artist, you know, until I die, and I think that's gonna look a thousand ways. So this was my first kind of the. You know, the first way that I got to try it out. And those first two. Now when I look back at it, I'm like, man, I still was. So it was just the trepidation. Like, I just felt so cautious. I didn't realize how cautious I was still being, but scary. I knew people would single me out and it would be rightly so this time.

[Joe Coscarelli]

So you were also going through a divorce.

[Hayley Williams]

Went through a divorce.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Something you could only channel into solo music and not paramore music.

[Hayley Williams]

Well, when we were writing after Laughter it was more. It was, it kind of manifested as writing about my own mental health in a way that I hadn't really been able to access before. So. Yeah, then when, when Petals happened, my, my divorce had been finalized and I had. I really got to process it and a lot of that stuff needed to come out. I needed to say so much of that for me. And that's also how I treat writing. So every project has been like, I gotta get this out of my body. And yeah, I mean, I think the band has. We've always taken these giant break ever since the 2011, like the real drama of Zach and his brother leaving. And we've just taken these giant breaks between, between album cycles and.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And you needed to fill the space somehow with music.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah, I was processing too quick to wait another four or five years to like, see how, where it goes, you know.

[Joe Coscarelli]

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[John Horn]

Here's a question. How can you keep from getting sick with a respiratory illness this season? The good news is everyday actions can help you stay well and stop the spread. Wash your hands hands, take steps for cleaner air and try to avoid close contact with people who are sick. And talk to your doctor about what vaccines may be right for you so you can help keep yourself and your loved ones healthy. Learn [e-mail] respiratory illnesses a message from CDC for a limited time at McDonald's, get a Big Mac Extra Value meal for $8. That means two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun and medium fries and a drink.

[Hayley Williams]

We may need to change that jingle.

[John Horn]

Prices and participation may vary. Paramore is an extremely beloved band. This is something that comes up from, you know, younger artists, people in a variety of traditions. A lot of people talk about your vocals specifically, like an awareness of the interest and anticipation of you as an individual. I wonder what that felt like, especially after being so firmly insistent in the earliest years that it's not me, it's us, it's not me. But then what happens is with the success of the band and the success of those, especially the early albums, everybody's like, maybe it is, you know. Right. Which is an inevitability. But I wonder how much of that anticipation and open reception. I'm sure people were saying, hey, I would love to have you sing on this. If you ever want to come out to a concert and sing us. Like, tell me about the leap into the unknown. Except, you know, that on some level, people want that, whether it's other musicians or fans.

[Hayley Williams]

I don't typically like to do the thing that people expect or want me to do. I mean, I think that's probably not always a great thing about me. So I did feel a bit defeatist about it, about finally giving into this.

[John Horn]

Thing that you'd been resisting.

[Hayley Williams]

I had been resisting it, like, my whole life. It felt like, now I'm giving into it. I'm gonna let the water take me and see how it goes. It was really scary. I think the one thing that sort of got me through that was the fact that we had been around for so long. I had to remember there was. There was some level of understanding of the context of where I come from.

[John Horn]

Right. You know, you're not just a. It's not the random thing where you show up on the Bob record. It's that there are people who maybe are inspired or influenced by your work who now have an opportunity for you and say, I have a stage. I have an album. So that must have felt welcome. Like, that probably helped erase the hesitation.

[Hayley Williams]

It totally did. And I'll say now, like. I mean, it's really weird that I have three of these albums with my name on them. I didn't see that coming in a zillion years. But I. I would say this time around, I feel the most. I. I've had the most moments where, like, I read something that someone's written about it, about the. The project, and I. I'll find myself, like, a little teary because it's. It's such a strange thing to grow up in this world. You're already, like. I was a teenager. You're already, like, feeling misunderstood all the time. And I do think that a part of me got stuck there, got really trapped there. And this project and the way that people are talking to me about it, I get to feel like a whole person. I don't have to, you know, have this caveat of, like. But, well. But I'm in this band. Like, I trust that people know that. And if they don't and they like what I'm doing anyway, well, sick. I mean, I do feel a bit more understood, which is Not a guarantee in this life that you're gonna ever feel that way. So I'm having, like a lot more full circle, like, hugging my inner child moments.

[Joe Coscarelli]

The signal to me that you were comfortable with it finally was the T shirt. Hayley Williams is my favorite band. Which basically encapsulates the whole, you know, previous 45 minutes of conversation that we've had. You know, it's like. Have you ever sat down with Gwen Stefani?

[Hayley Williams]

Oh, well, we opened for no doubt in 2009, but have you had this conversation? No, I think I. Back then I thought I was having that conversation. Conversation with her anytime we talked, because I was just listening. I was listening between the words. I was trying to pay attention to her body language and like, how it seemed that they had grown up together. Obviously there's been a lot of. In their bands.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I mean, they were the blueprint for the Paramore drama, unfortunately, in terms of band members coming and going, relationships, the pull of the solo career. But. But then what happened is you didn't do the Gwen Stefani. When Gwen Stefani went solo, she made Pharrell records. When you went solo, you went insular, you went deeper in. I think that a good moment to talk about ego, death and the way that you rolled it out, which was a bit chaotic, I will say, but maybe by design. You first put out 17 singles randomly on a website, then on streaming, not aggregated. And it's since become an album which will eventually be physically released. Why?

[Hayley Williams]

I really needed to write about a lot of things. The end of the contract happened and I could see it coming. We were finishing this Is why, and it was like the light at the end of the tunnel. But strangely, as I got closer, it felt more daunting. And I think it's because there was so much I hadn't really ever processed about everything that we've just talked about and more. So it all really felt like it was gonna come out whether or not I put it anywhere. It just was like I was gonna puke everywhere. And putting it out the way that we did was basically just trying to share that experience. But it was also. The real crux of it for me is I really only care about the people that, like, in terms of who's gonna take this in and listen to it and get something out of it. I. That's all I care about. Like, I don't. I'm not. I don't need to make more fans. I've had such a cool career.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's an anti commercial move to release it this way.

[Hayley Williams]

Thank you. What a great compliment. Because I. I just feel that subculture right now, it's always been important, but I think we really need to dive into community and what we're the most passionate about, because that's sustainable stuff. When I think about the issues that I care about politically, socially, I gotta have energy around them. So what am I. Who am I connecting with? Who am I speaking to? I kind of feel like putting out the music this way allowed me to sort of speak in code to the people who actually give a shit about Paramore and. And confuse the writers and the people that, you know, love to just put a paramor think piece out every few.

[John Horn]

Looking for an easy sort of the quickest. The quickest, most simplistic summation of a thing.

[Hayley Williams]

And all they're gonna do is just write facts in it. They're not gonna dig into what the songs are about or what production is, what choices were being made and why. Like, I kind of just wanted to be, like, you know, that's gonna happen anyway. Want to just go straight to the source and to. To, like, tap into the people that are there. They're already there, and they're where we've been having a conversation for 20 years. I. I needed to feel like I also got to be the kind of artist that I wanted to be before a major label found me.

[John Horn]

There is a stretch in the middle of the record, and when you say the artist that you want to be, the artist that you want to be, I'm guessing, is one that can reference the Bloodhound gang and then two songs later, have a song about racial tensions in the south and how the south will never kind of elevate if it doesn't directly confront its terrible history. That's the artist that you want to be. Can you tell me about, frankly, both of those decisions, both of those songs and how you see them in concert with each other?

[Hayley Williams]

You and me, baby Ain't nothing but mammals so let's do it like they do on the Discovery. Wow. I mean, I. I like so many kinds of music, as does the band. I can never plant. I want to make this kind of record. I could even say I want to make this kind of record, and it might inform some part of it, but, like, there was so much, like, grief happening in my body while writing. It just felt like every day was an exercise of seeing how much of it I could get out in one go so that I can be clean from it and just, like, keep moving. I so desperately want to divorce the Part of myself that had to just, you know, I really had to grin and bear a lot of shit in our career. And that's not to say we haven't enjoyed so. So 99% of it. We've been so lucky. We have such a cool thing going with Paramore still, which is. That's another part of it. Like, how are we still here? But, yeah, I just. One day it was about, I don't know, like, the band and grieving what I thought Paramore was. I really. I really. This is a whole other conversation, but I really have decided that while I was deconstructing my faith and my religious upbringing from around age 19 to forever, I really didn't realize how much of Paramore for me was a religious experience. A God pillar in my life.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Instead of the organized religion instead of.

[Hayley Williams]

God, it was like Paramore is the backdrop to every conversation. Yes.

[John Horn]

Organizing principle.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah. Songs like. Songs like Discovery Channel are really me kind of like roaming the halls of those of whatever that structure is and just trying to take it apart more. True Believer is like. I mean, I'm never not ready to scream at the top of my lungs about racial issues. I don't know why that became the thing that gets me the most angry. I think because it's so intersectional that it overlaps with everything from climate change to, like, LGBTQIA plus issues. But Nashville, I. The reason I was writing about Nashville a lot is that we came home from tour and I thought, well, I'm gonna. I'm gonna go to la. I gotta. This will be my third move to la, but this one's gonna stick.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Get me out of here.

[Hayley Williams]

Get me out of here. It's like Trump just got elected again, and I don't want to be in a red state.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And Nashville is a capital of this culture, this. Whatever the new American culture is, mainstream culture. A lot of it is based, if not in Austin, in Nashville. And I'm sure you are feeling that. There's a line on the title track, Ego Death, where you say something like, I'm the most famous girl in this racist country singer's bar.

[Hayley Williams]

I'll be the biggest star.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You want to name names? Could be a couple. Could be a couple different.

[Hayley Williams]

It could be a couple. But I'm always talking about Morgan Wallen. I don't give a. Find me at Whole Foods. I don't care.

[John Horn]

Oh, man. Oh, man.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Look, and I think it's important for you to be able to. To speak that truth, but I also think it relates directly to Paramore. And your fan base. John and I have spoken a lot over the years. There's been a lot written about the diversity of your fan base, about Black Paramore's black fans.

[John Horn]

In particular, a recurrent tick tock theme. I feel like once every month or once every two months there will be a tick tock explosion where, yeah, a black fan is just going absolutely crazy. And then I've seen ones where you and maybe other folks in the band respond to it.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And I, I, I've seen great explanations for it. You know, people love your sort of gospel influence, which I think comes from growing up in the south and of course in churches. And there's a lot of that in your vocals. You have a lot of soul.

[Hayley Williams]

Thank you.

[Joe Coscarelli]

For a white girl. I think, like we all know that I'm not, I'm not the first or the best person to tell you that, but I think, you know, it's, it's well established. Like, you know, the little Uzi vert eating gummies, dancing Paramore. One of my favorite Internet clips of all time. But why do you think that is? Because it's also like maybe I thought it was an Internet meme for a couple years. And then the last time I saw you guys, I did too at Radio City. I was like, oh no, this is the most diverse crowd I've probably ever seen at a rock concert.

[Hayley Williams]

That's so cool.

[Joe Coscarelli]

At least in recent history.

[Hayley Williams]

I feel that too now more than I did growing up. It definitely shifted around the self titled record. We started saying yes to a lot more. Just talking to Leah who's on, she's one of my managers now, and we were talking about how she wasn't around for the period of time where we just said yes to everything. We were like playing the voice and we were like playing, you know, we were just saying yes to. I think a lot more people got introduced to our band during that time. People that maybe weren't welcome in the scene that we grew up in. So I do think that having like songs like Ain't It Fun come out, which were like when Taylor and I were writing that I was like playing these synth parts and going like, oh, it's like Stevie Wonder, you know, like we were referencing black artists only when we were trying to put that particular song together. But I do think that the amount of space we decided we were okay taking up and the places we were okay showing up in just let different people that hadn't really been privy to what we were doing or what we were about feel maybe a Little bit more welcome to come into the show. And then I'll never forget watching. Stop Making Sense during. While we were recording After Laughter and watching the camera pan across the crowd, seeing how diverse it was, and I just got really teary. And obviously there's, like, some of the best black musicians, like, on stage with them. And they're on stage, they're all working together as if they are all the talking heads. There was no separation. It just felt like this celebration of humanity. And I was like, that's what I want it to feel like. And I don't know if that was manifestation or if it was just all completely out of our control. We couldn't have done anything for or against it. But I had this moment towards the end of After Laughter. We're playing a show, and I kind of looked across the crowd, and I just was like, we're doing it. We're here with all these people that the. The music gives them a space. It makes them feel a part of something. And that's the only feeling that I've ever wanted since I was a kid in Mississippi. I just wanted to feel a part of something, and I wanted to feel safe in it. And, yeah, I mean, now it's like you said, the Tiktoks and the. It is. It is memeable at this point. It's not really. Sometimes I think it gets, like. How, Like. Like blown out of proportion. Is it really? But to your point, then I'll go to a plate. We'll play a show and I'll see the proof. Yeah, just. I'm so proud of that because I'm very passionate that we have a long way to go in making and, you know, to make people feel that they belong in the world. And the. The repercussions of people not feeling like they're apart or they. They belong. We see it all the time in the news. And I just. I don't know. I think music is the kind of. The. Not only the easiest, but the most beautiful way to tap into people's hearts and their subconscious and change their minds and have people show up to a show and stand next to someone that they may never see again, but they're gonna share this really wholesome, cathartic moment. You know, that's like. That's the kind of shows I want to be at, and it's not really the kind of shows I grew up going to. I just went to my first Newport Folk Festival this year, and I thought, this is the punkiest festival I've ever been at. And I, I grew up at punk festivals, apparently. So I think that sometimes it's a costume and sometimes it's a heart matter. And the thing that I'm really thankful for is I grew up going to like some hardcore shows and shows where I do feel like there was a sense of unity and there was.

[Joe Coscarelli]

There's community. Even if it's a specific community.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah, yeah. And people are learning how to work together to create something. And you know, like you got like 15 year old kids promoting shows. Those shows were really cathartic. But now when I think about what I really need in terms of like the world I really choose to. To see or to want to see, it's. It's not those rooms. I want to be in those rooms, but I really want the contents of the rooms to change. When someone tells me that I've actively. I'm a part of helping that change happen, that's when I'm like, well, that's the job. That's the work.

[John Horn]

Including speaking about political and social issues.

[Hayley Williams]

For me. Yes. And I still think you gotta be smart and know when is the moment or when it's just gonna. It's like out of your hands anyways. But I think, yes, I think it's. Why not? You know, and the other half to that is, is just you can't be educated about everything all the time to the extent that I think you should be to speak on something. But when you're passionate about something and you really believe in something and you have the will to spread that I think, yeah, talk about it, Talk about it from stage or if that's not comfortable or doesn't feel safe. Like there's still plenty of opportunities to have those conversations, you know, I'm still.

[John Horn]

Figuring that out now, just even hearing you say that. I'm thinking back to what you said 45 minutes ago about the Warped Tour and Fat Mike and the types of things that were being said on that stage. And the fact that now the full circle moment is having the opportunity to say a whole different set of things on St. Yeah.

[Hayley Williams]

Growing up on the Warp Tour, I mean, I really. It's very disillusioning like to. To come out of it and realize like nobody was talking politics on those stages. Not really.

[Joe Coscarelli]

A little bit of voter registration, 2003, 2004. But not.

[Hayley Williams]

We weren't even on the Warp Tour on those years. Like that was right before us.

[Joe Coscarelli]

That moment in quote unquote, punk music was not about politics necessarily. It was more about style.

[Hayley Williams]

It was more about style. And maybe some social stuff, maybe. But I. I think, like, I. I mean, I. I had to learn. I felt like I had to learn on my own how to do it, how to talk about that stuff. Cause I didn't. I wasn't looking around me and seeing other people do it in a way that felt well at all. This year I met Kathleen Hannah. We did this thing at the Rock hall together. First time ever meeting her, I. It was like the women in rock and it's so many. I mean, I walked in and just immediately started crying because I got to sort of hug this younger version of myself that I think really felt alone and probably scared a lot of the time and be like, you were always a part of that. And I got to talk to her about that. And I got to talk about how you're kind of unlikable when you talk about the same issue over and over again with passion. Like, it's. It's not. You know, it's not. The people resent it. I don't know why. It could be a million reasons. They could. They could agree with you and still be annoyed. But I just didn't have a lot of, like, I didn't have a lot of mentors really, other than our manager. And I. Like, he did a great job, in my opinion.

[Joe Coscarelli]

But he raised you well.

[Hayley Williams]

He raised us.

[John Horn]

But no female. No female. No women in the band.

[Hayley Williams]

Mentors? Not really. Like. Like, maybe some of the women in production at Warp tour were really sweet to me, really kind. But, like, I think it would have been so cool to have met, you know, to met Kathleen back then or to like, literally name a woman in a. In a punk band that like, that came before us. I think it just would have been nice.

[Joe Coscarelli]

But you were isolated from them.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah. Yeah.

[John Horn]

Can I just ask one more question about the scale of this music of the Solar record? Is it designed explicitly to avoid the chance of a still into you? Happening is making the record sound how it does those choices. Sort of like, I don't want any one of these songs to then get out of control, which would then force me to have to make some decisions.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Force me to have to go on the Voice again.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah, no, I don't think it's a conscious. Like, I'm gonna try to make the anti still into you. This is like the kind of music I like to make. You know, it could be both.

[John Horn]

You know, we were talking about the.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Anti commercial delivery of it, but you don't think the songs itself themselves are anti commercial?

[Hayley Williams]

I mean, I do. I Kind. I see that they are, and I like that about them.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Right. They're alt. They're a little more.

[John Horn]

We're bringing alt back. We're bringing alt back. We're bringing alt back.

[Hayley Williams]

Wow.

[Joe Coscarelli]

They're a little more alt. They're not 90s alt, you know?

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah. Yeah.

[John Horn]

That's what I mean, to be fair.

[Joe Coscarelli]

90S alt got pretty big.

[John Horn]

Pretty big. That's sort of what I'm saying. And I'm not convinced that that is not a turn that popular music is going to take. I think it might take that turn, but I just wonder. I. You know, you talk about really being protective over the decisions that you want to make and sort of keeping certain space for yourself, but one thing about the Internet these days and social, like, things are unpredictable. And I wonder if you were confronted with the. With all of a sudden one of these things becomes a TikTok trend or, you know, like, not. You're not hiring. We know who you hire. Like, we're not hiring those people.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You just f around and go viral.

[John Horn]

Yes. How will you reckon with that?

[Hayley Williams]

I would like to think I would just listen to my gut and I would say no if I needed to say no to something. But, yeah, I'm. I made this music with my friend Daniel, who the guys and I have grown up around kind of idolizing. He's amazing. Artists in his own right, but a great producer. Great. We had such a good time writing these songs, but we were just trying to tap into stuff. We were into, like, that whole scene and Copenhagen and like, the. These artists that. I mean, he's been on that tip for a really long time. He lived over there and was in a band, this band called After Clang over there for a moment, you know, so there's like. There's such a. There's so much going on in the background besides just what people know of me and Paramore. I don't really listen to anything that sounds like Paramore. It's like, I think one of my favorite bands of all time, but it's. I don't really listen to Paramore. I just love what Paramore is about. For me, I listen to stuff that just, like, inspires me. And then we go and we make stuff and kind of hope that we. We get close to the things that make us feel cool, like, make us feel like we want to be musicians. So I think if a song, like, blew up and I didn't, like, have any say in it, who's gonna complain about that? Like, cool writers want that moment more Than anything.

[John Horn]

But you don't feel it's gonna pull you, like.

[Hayley Williams]

No, because I. I'm not impressed by it.

[John Horn]

Yeah, I've been there.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You've been in those rooms?

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah.

[John Horn]

You've been on stage with Taylor Swift.

[Hayley Williams]

Swift, yeah. And, like. And honestly, I loved that. That was, like, the honor of our life and career. But there's nothing like a Paramore show. I'd rather be at a Paramore show. You know what I mean? All day long, I'd rather be at a Paramore show with. With. With the people that, like I said, have grown up with us, that know that part of us. It's like, I don't know. It feels like family. So to me, I think I have enough of an internal compass and, like, a real strong sense of my own intuition that I'm just, like, listening to that every day and it's happening in real time. I feel like this is such an experiment because it's the first time I feel like I've been totally comfortable and. Okay. The first album, Covid happened, I didn't even. I actually didn't have a choice. I had to shut it down.

[John Horn]

Yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It was never gonna get that big unless you're Dua Lipa.

[John Horn]

Yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's like Covid was its own handicap.

[Hayley Williams]

But this is my chance to also emulate the music and the artists that made me want to do this in the first place. None of which were big artists. So I think if that. If it happens to a moment, for a moment, take off in one way, great. But I'm going to be here just trying to keep getting better at guitar, you know?

[John Horn]

And I have to ask, did the embrace from Taylor, someone like that, like, how unexpected was that? And. And hearing. Do you hear a little bit of Paramore in Taylor now? Yes, because I do. Absolutely.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Definitely. In her pop punk moment.

[John Horn]

Yeah, yeah.

[Hayley Williams]

Revenge. I'm like, what did I influence with that?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Business came first, Right?

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah, I think. Yeah. Yeah, it did. It did. Because Speak now was during Brand New eyes for us 2010. Yeah, yeah. She's always been so vocally supportive of our band. She's also been the first person anytime we've been nominated or won a Grammy, I literally get a text from her before I get a text from my family. Yeah, she really, like, she had a scene phase. Let's not pretend she wasn't on MySpace. Yeah, we know the MySpace.

[Joe Coscarelli]

We see you, Taylor.

[Hayley Williams]

It felt like we got. Got asked to be on the biggest tour in music history. Yes. Because that's what it was. And it Was.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And you did it.

[Hayley Williams]

We did it. It was unreal. We were exhausted when we got home. But like, I'm never gonna see photos of myself dressed as Freddie Mercury at Wembley and not be psyched that we did that. You know what I mean?

[John Horn]

Yeah, of course. And it's just to me, like, the, the gratifying thing is, number one, obviously seeing the influence of what you did in remanifested into someone like Taylor who's like, like expanding it. But then also, you know, you're Olivia Rodrigo and so like all these people, I'm just like, oh, like everybody grew up on Param. Like, like, this is very clear to me.

[Hayley Williams]

That is a wild.

[John Horn]

I mean, you must, I mean, you know, I'm not, we're not telling you every day.

[Hayley Williams]

Like, I'm still metabolizing it. I'm still, I'm still seeing it like play out. I, I don't know when people are going to get sick of us because I've been sick of us like 20 times by now, but I'm so honored to like get to do it. And I'm also very relieved to get to try something new and flex different muscles and be like, you gotta deconstruct this, this system that you were a part of on multiple levels. Like, you, like, I gotta tear down Paramore the same way I had to tear down my evangelical upbringing. I have to do it for me to grow up because I don't want to be stuck in a traumatized 18 year old year old's headspace for the rest of my life. I'm 36. It's not cute anymore.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Before we move on to our lightning round, I have to ask about the current state of Paramore. As if things weren't fraught enough in the history of the band, you entered into a relationship with one of your band members and now there's again, same as five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago. A lot of speculation about there, about how the lineup dynamic affects what Paramore could become like. Is that, that PTSD for you to then see? Oh, I'm all grown up. And it's still the same conversations about, you know, is Haley breaking up Paramore?

[Hayley Williams]

I mean, it, it is ptsd. But this is the moment in my life where I think I get to, I get to reclaim a lot of things for, for, for me, the person. And I'm, I am. I've been heavy on the reminiscing lately and thinking about the full circle moment of, you know, celebrating 20 years. There's a lot of Reason. There's a lot of reasons that I think I could be triggered every day right now. But I do feel like I've done the internal work to understand why people are interested. I mean, we all grew up on the Internet. Everything is parasocial. You can't avoid it. I don't. I don't resent our fans for being that way. But look, Paramore. Paramore's not ever going away. If I woke up tomorrow and hated it and was like, fuck, Paramore, it's not going away. But I love. It's my favorite band. And I think. I think that we need breaks. Like, we. We. We are three people that have been in a machine, in a washing machine since we were teenagers. And it really affected all three of us in vastly different ways. And this is not a moment that I like. I get to say what the future. I don't get to say, like, well, this is what exactly what we're gonna do next. Because, like, I've been saying my whole career, Paramore's band, like, I. I don't get to decide. And it wasn't time to make another Paramore record, but I had a lot of shit to say. So I. I've done what I've done for myself and made this record. But speaking to the parasocial aspect of it, I'm trying to do things this time around in a way that can communicate to the people who care. I don't feel like I owe the wider world an explanation of what, like, my real life. I just feel like the people that care are going to read into what I'm saying. And that's where I put that part of my life. That's where I put the things that I feel, the things I'm struggling with. My losses, my gains, my. The. Just all of it. Music into the music. And I think that the right people are, like, they're there to catch me, you know? And that's like, what I. That's what I feel. This moment in my career, I'm finally willing to, like, let that happen. And it's okay that it's me by myself and not Paramore right now. Paramore will always have its time because we. That's just what we do. We. We cycle back in and out of it. We resent it. One minute we want to, like, wear matching clothes, and the next minute we want to, like, wear a trash bag.

[John Horn]

We gotta find a photo of those early matching clothes.

[Hayley Williams]

I have a lot of them.

[John Horn]

Okay, well, send them along.

[Hayley Williams]

If I don't have them, I know where to find. But we just. We have such a special relationship with the people who care about Paramore. And this record is for the them. Even though it's not Paramore. I. I hope they know it's for them. And I'm. Yeah, I'm doing the same. I've always. I'm writing about my life and they're the only people that have ever really cared in the right way. So they can have it. But I don't really want to. I just don't like everybody else. All the. All the articles that would get written about if I said everything that goes on in our band, you know, band's conversations in my life and my family, like, I just think it's. It's. Then it wouldn't be mine to keep anymore. It wouldn't be my life anymore.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Let's hit a couple questions in the lightning round.

[Hayley Williams]

I'm terrified.

[John Horn]

No, no, no.

[Joe Coscarelli]

52 cards in the Popcast deck. Each one corresponds to a pre written question. Okay, let's see what you pull.

[Hayley Williams]

Okay.

[Joe Coscarelli]

All right, we got an eight of hearts. Eight of hearts.

[John Horn]

All right, well, let's just. We're not like advanced enough. Eventually we'll have the deck with the questions.

[Hayley Williams]

Oh, yeah.

[John Horn]

Not. We're not there yet.

[Hayley Williams]

You should. You should make those for podcasts so that people can.

[John Horn]

Yes. Play it at home. Yeah. Our merch, by the way. Buy our merch.

[Joe Coscarelli]

That's a good idea.

[John Horn]

Google it.

[Hayley Williams]

Actually have merch.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I mean, you see the deck.

[Hayley Williams]

Oh, are you going to do the popped collar merch now?

[John Horn]

I didn't even know. I can't believe everything I've ever like. No, no. I forget you. With everything I've written about men's fashion in the last 20 years, I can't believe I did not know that there was a popped collar polo shirt with text in the pop.

[Hayley Williams]

It's geni.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I do feel like we invent that. Cypress Creek High School.

[John Horn]

I just want to like, reunion.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I'm gonna wear it.

[John Horn]

If you hashtag menswear nerd on Tumblr in the late 2000s, early 2010s, get at me. I want to know if this is a one.

[Hayley Williams]

Like, is that your world?

[John Horn]

That's. It's a world I'm aware of. I have a lot of worlds. But like, here's the thing. People out here talking about bod, senior cords, whatever about that.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You're taking us off the rails.

[John Horn]

I want to know about. We're not talking about bod on podcast.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Read the question.

[John Horn]

That's. First of all, it's my show too. Eight of Hearts. All right. Straightforward. What's your best lyric?

[Hayley Williams]

This is terrible.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Can I just call one out before you answer?

[John Horn]

From the new album.

[Hayley Williams]

Oh, yes.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You correct me if I paraphrase it wrong.

[Hayley Williams]

Okay.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Made a lot of dumb. A lot of money. What's the line?

[Hayley Williams]

A lot of dumb that I made rich.

[John Horn]

There we go.

[Hayley Williams]

It's pretty good. I was very. I was. I had to be high for that.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You're in your bed.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah. I had to get so stoned to speak my truth on that. That. That song, very. That was an exorcism, that song. I'm really proud of it.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Ice In My oj.

[Hayley Williams]

Ice In My oj. Opening track of the album. Which. Which, yeah, I. I wouldn't have expected to happen. But that one's good. I'm glad you called that one out, because I don't think I would have called that out. I would have tried to go with something like super poetic. No, no.

[Joe Coscarelli]

But what's your. What's your best lyric?

[Hayley Williams]

To me, what I'm the most proud of is. Is the second pre course of True Believer where I. I reference Strange Fruit. I also reference this. This neighborhood in Franklin, like, really close to where I grew up called Hard Bargain. And Hard Bargain was like, I don't know how many acres. I feel like it was like 17 acres or something like that that this formerly enslaved man bought from his former enslaver. It's still there. It's still. I feel like it's all black, but predominantly black families. And it's protected now. But of course, you know, Franklin and Nashville are being gentrified all the time. The city takes care of its tourists more than it takes care of any of us.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Hence the bachelorette party imagery on the album.

[Hayley Williams]

Yes. So I'm really proud of the fact that I wrote about my city, but I was also able to inject this history that I'm aware of that I think is really important to pass on. I mean, there's been so many people that have told me they didn't know the Strange Fruit reference. So the lyric is. I might have to think of the whole second chorus, but. So they put a. They put up chain link fences Underneath the biggest bridges they pose in Christmas cards With guns as big as all their children they say that Jesus is the way and so they gave him a white face so, you know. And then. The south will not rise again until it's paid for every sin Strange Fruit, Hard Bargain till the roots. Southern Gotham the south will not rise again Till it's paid for every sing. I'm so proud of it. I'm so. I feel like I. You know, when you write something in only so many lines, that holds a lot more meaning than just the lines itself, whether that's via double entendres or whatnot. I. I think. I don't know. I just felt like a real lyricist when I finished that. That. And I still was very scared of it because we're talking about stuff that's really important, but I was like, okay, I. I said the thing that I feel, and I said it in a way that is succinct, and I'm proud of it, but more proud of. Of kind of the life it's taken since then and the conversations that I think the song has helped to start. That's like, again, that's. That's dreams. As a writer, you want to start conversation. And I haven't done a lot of that, admittedly, as much as. Other than.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Than Misery business.

[Hayley Williams]

Misery business.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Which, you know, a valuable conversation now.

[Hayley Williams]

Yes.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And a great song.

[Hayley Williams]

Thank you.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Let's be honest.

[Hayley Williams]

It's a good karaoke song. How many of these are we doing?

[John Horn]

We'll do five. Five total Poker hand. Oh, well, you're about to have a straight flush.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Your hand's looking good.

[Hayley Williams]

Oh, yes.

[John Horn]

Okay. Who's your og? Which is to say, who do you turn to for advice?

[Joe Coscarelli]

We talked about your lack of mentors, but that's changed over the years.

[Hayley Williams]

It's my best friend, Brian o'. Connor. He's probably watching. Hi, Brian. He is. I've known him since I was 17, and I don't know if you've noticed this about me, but I really. I like to keep my friend. I like to grow up with my friends, and I think he's the person that I've talked to the most through all my seasons and all my horrible decision making. I don't have a lot of friends in our industry, which I think sometimes I regret. I'm like, what did I do wrong? But.

[John Horn]

Or why was the industry not set up for me to form bonds with people?

[Hayley Williams]

Yes. And why? You know, I mean, we were so young, too. There's not anybody else our age on the road, but that's my dude.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Two of clubs.

[John Horn]

Two of clubs. Okay. The poker hand's not getting better.

[Hayley Williams]

It really took a turn.

[John Horn]

Okay.

[Hayley Williams]

Not the side.

[John Horn]

Oh, yeah. I don't think we've had this one. I don't think anybody's pulled this card.

[Hayley Williams]

Okay.

[John Horn]

When was the last time that you let someone down? Whatever that was, that's the answer. Yeah.

[Hayley Williams]

All year this has been a year of me having to choose myself and having to like make, make decisions. We had a song on our last album called Thick Skull, Only I Know where all the Bodies Are and we finished the cycle with it and with a video for it that I didn't really realize was like. I didn't realize how meaningful it was until way later. I think that I've directly and indirectly let so many people down through our career. And sometimes that was because a major label was, you know, trying to convince my parents that it was the right thing to do to sign a 15 year old girl. And then other times it was breakups. And this year I think in trying to get away from this arrested development, you know, part of myself, I think when you, I think when you start to have boundaries and choose yourself, it pisses a lot of people off. And it's so hard for me. I really. It kills me to let anyone down, but especially people that you love, you know, it's like. It's really, really hard to do. And I'm in the thick of it still. I. I feel like I'm in the thick of it because I still have so much to digest about my, my life up till 36 and the ways I've been let down but didn't really feel like I was allowed to express that. But then I've. I've felt like a letdown. I don't know, I don't feel like I'm talking super eloquently about it because it all feels new to me still. To like.

[John Horn]

To choose yourself.

[Hayley Williams]

To choose myself to. To like not have to apologize for doing something that feels okay for me or to take care of myself before I take care of everyone else in the room. You know, I spent my whole life protecting Paramore. Like we were the Lost Boys and I was Wendy, you know, and I'm just like, I gotta, I gotta take care of me and, and that's. I'm trying, I'm trying to do it and oh my God, like we might talk a year from now and I might be like, I made the worst decisions of my life when I was 36. Six. But maybe not.

[John Horn]

Popcast is a known place for self care, just FYI. So you're doing the right thing. Yeah, this is, we're widely known. Yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Two more. You'll pull a full fun one. I feel it.

[John Horn]

This is, this, this is like when. This is when Justin Vernon was here. Justin Vernon pulled a full house.

[Hayley Williams]

Did he really it was very strange.

[John Horn]

Really strange. Like magical. Like real magic. Okay, well, this is. It's a great question. Not exactly for you, but there's an analog. The question is, what's a beat you wish you'd rapped on? I think that's a great question, but maybe there's an answer. Or alternately, what's a song that you wish you sung on?

[Hayley Williams]

Oh, my God.

[John Horn]

But if actually it's the rapping, I'd love to know that. So would the world.

[Hayley Williams]

Two Live Crew. Pop that pussy. Yeah.

[John Horn]

Let's go. Oh, where were you guys in 89? There you go.

[Hayley Williams]

Well, my mom just told me I was in her belly and my dad and her were, like, cruising listening to that song. And I was like, down in Mississippi. This is not the Joey Williams I thought I knew. You know what I mean? Love it.

[John Horn]

It's a different kind of evangelist. Oh.

[Hayley Williams]

The fact that my dad was listening to band in the USA in Mississippi in the late 80s, pretty crazy.

[John Horn]

Would have had. You had no knowledge of that.

[Hayley Williams]

My mom just told me this, like, literally.

[John Horn]

But no, no, she's like, oh, we love that album.

[Hayley Williams]

I was like, mom, what did you and dad listen to when you guys were still friends? Like, what were you guys listening to? And she was like, you really want to know? And I was. Was like, this is a cool. This is the best.

[John Horn]

That's great.

[Hayley Williams]

So 2Life Crew.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Oh, that's great.

[John Horn]

I. Yeah, I don't think you could top that.

[Hayley Williams]

I can't.

[John Horn]

I can't top genuine. I'm so glad. I'm so glad you pulled that card.

[Hayley Williams]

Me too.

[John Horn]

Which one is this? The five of clubs.

[Hayley Williams]

Yes.

[John Horn]

All right, five of clubs.

[Hayley Williams]

You should get a tarot deck next.

[John Horn]

You know, that's our spin off.

[Hayley Williams]

That would be interesting.

[John Horn]

Yeah. Popcast Seance. Okay. This is you ending on a lightning notes thank. It's late night or even you're on the road. You're in. You're in who knows where. Indiana, Nebraska. You pull off to the gas station on the road. What's the gas station order? What's the bodega order? Like, what's the. What's the chip?

[Hayley Williams]

I Wish I remembered JLo's bodega order so I could say repeat.

[John Horn]

JLo. Good bit.

[Hayley Williams]

My go to order at the bodega was. Was ham and cheese on a roll with an orange drink. If you know, you know. And a small. I would get Arizona green tea.

[John Horn]

Green tea. Okay.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Dollar can.

[Hayley Williams]

If there was a subway, I would get like 6 inch sub on white bread with no. With Lettuce. This is the worst sandwich ever.

[John Horn]

Sounds rough, to be honest.

[Hayley Williams]

Lettuce, tomato, banana, peppers, like basically all the veggies. I could do salt and pepper, oil and vinegar and pickles also, but no meat. Like, you know, just that I know.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You'Ve toured in bands. If you're imagining like a subway attached.

[John Horn]

To a gas station, that rest stop you're talking.

[Hayley Williams]

Rest stop. Yeah, Classic Arizona green tea was the one. And then I was also like, I wasn't supposed to have dairy. I wasn't supposed to, you know, I was trying to take care of my throat and I always was losing my voice. So I would get, like, maybe I would get mounds, but I would mostly get on almonds or like walnuts.

[John Horn]

Oh my.

[Hayley Williams]

So boring. Like I really was.

[John Horn]

Respectfully, yes, very boring.

[Hayley Williams]

It was awful.

[Joe Coscarelli]

This leads us perfectly.

[John Horn]

Yeah, I know.

[Joe Coscarelli]

This was not a setup segment.

[John Horn]

Not a setup.

[Hayley Williams]

Okay.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Every episode of popcast ends with a snack test.

[Hayley Williams]

Yes. Okay.

[Joe Coscarelli]

We try something from our pantry, which you walked in and you spent, I will say the most time in front of the pantry of any ever.

[John Horn]

Yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Really?

[John Horn]

We get a lot of impulse picks that I, I, we want to imp. Narrative onto, but they're just.

[Joe Coscarelli]

No, but you were considering. You were picking stuff up, you were looking, you were like, do I want to go new? Do I want to go foreign? Do I want to go trying to.

[Hayley Williams]

Figure out what the, what the buds wanted.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And I think under some pressure, cuz we need to start, you picked something that you already know and love but that we haven't tried. So these are wild strawberry candy Kittens.

[John Horn]

What company?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Gourmet Candy from London.

[John Horn]

Like, what company is it?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Candy are.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah, Candy Kittens.

[John Horn]

But is that the name of the candy or is that the name of the company that makes the candy?

[Joe Coscarelli]

You want the parent company?

[John Horn]

Is it a Cadbury product? Is it like, what. Who's making them?

[Hayley Williams]

I feel like it's independent.

[John Horn]

It's indie. No, it's on Vagrant Candy.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Candy Kittens. It's a fake indie candy.

[John Horn]

It's an upstream. Are you sure it's not upstreamed? Vagrant, Like.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Yeah, no, these are. This is UK Candy Kittens 8 Broadstone Place in London.

[Hayley Williams]

Wow.

[John Horn]

We're pulling out to Broadstone Place.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Get them from the sweets.

[Hayley Williams]

I know what they're doing.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Strawberry flavor.

[Hayley Williams]

Okay.

[John Horn]

So yeah, I got these in London.

[Hayley Williams]

Gluten free.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Gluten free.

[Hayley Williams]

All the, the little.

[Joe Coscarelli]

No nasties. All good. Is the catchphrase.

[John Horn]

No mon candy can. I want, I want nasty listeners of podcast.

[Joe Coscarelli]

No, I do not like strawberry flavor, but here we are.

[Hayley Williams]

You don't like strawberry flavor? I'm so sorry. Oh, okay. But there's no nasties. What if it's real strawberry?

[John Horn]

All right, all right.

[Hayley Williams]

I mean my.

[Joe Coscarelli]

So it's like it's a cat.

[Hayley Williams]

What if it's real?

[Joe Coscarelli]

It's a cat head. But it's like deformed.

[John Horn]

It's deformed but like deformed in transit or deformed by design.

[Hayley Williams]

We'll never know. We'll never. Sweet potato and black carrot plant concentrate.

[Joe Coscarelli]

This is healthy candy.

[Hayley Williams]

There's potato protein.

[John Horn]

I didn't intentionally buy this because it was healthy. It doesn't taste healthy.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Don't worry.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah, it does. They're really good. My first. If you eat snacks, there are no nasties. You can have more of them. So I do a lot. I do eat a lot of vegan gluten free snacks.

[John Horn]

Smells vegan.

[Hayley Williams]

Does it really?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Doesn't taste. Doesn't taste it. I like this.

[Hayley Williams]

I don't like this. I don't like this furrow.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I like it.

[Hayley Williams]

Oh, you like it?

[Joe Coscarelli]

I like it.

[Hayley Williams]

I like the. There's some kind of like, there's like a, you know like the lifesaver. Creamy. Creamy ones. There's something of that.

[Joe Coscarelli]

There is a little, they're a little milky.

[Hayley Williams]

Is it the potato protein?

[Joe Coscarelli]

It might be the potato. As a non strawberry flavor fan, this is better than an artificial strawberry flavor.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

I don't hate it at all. I'm going to just give it a solid 7 out of 10. I wouldn't eat the whole bag for rating. You want to do a decimal? We could do a decimal.

[John Horn]

Yeah.

[Hayley Williams]

7.3.

[Joe Coscarelli]

So is that what your album got on pitch for?

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah.

[John Horn]

Is it actually hilarious?

[Joe Coscarelli]

Did you look like it was Christmas morning and you're like what's under.

[Hayley Williams]

I opened my, I opened my Instagram and it was there.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Ah, it was served to you.

[Hayley Williams]

It was served up on a platter.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Right.

[Hayley Williams]

But the last Paramore album got lower the than that.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Okay, so you topped your band.

[John Horn]

You have like the ranking board. You like put it up on the board. Yes. Rearrange them.

[Hayley Williams]

But I, I joke with them a lot because they love to use me for clicks. But so I comment, I to. I said, well, what will you rate it in 10 years? Because I'll change it for sure. I might rate it lower. But if my experience in this industry has anything to do with it, someone will reevaluate and be like, oh, she was.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It was pretty good. It was fine. Nothing to nothing. To sniff out.

[John Horn]

Media is dying. No one clicks on anything anymore. No, no. I'm maxed out.

[Joe Coscarelli]

But, Joe, they're all yours. This is the thing. That's a seven out of ten. One bite. But I wouldn't eat many. And most gummies, I have to eat the whole bag.

[John Horn]

Yeah, I'm okay. So, like, this is a style of candy, gummy with whatever's on the outside sour. Yeah. Like, it's not a preferred style of candy for me. What I will say is it chews harder than, like, a Hari bow. It's. It's a little. Little bit. It's durational in a way that I'm kind of like, I'm ready for it to be over, but it's not over.

[Joe Coscarelli]

And you only took a little nibble.

[John Horn]

No, this is the third one because I tried to, like, give it another shot. It's durational.

[Hayley Williams]

It's crazy.

[John Horn]

It's. It's not bad.

[Hayley Williams]

Do you like chocolate stuff more than, like, this kind of sweet?

[John Horn]

No, I actually really don't like. I. I don't. I'm very Catholic in my taste. Like, I can like and dislike, like, unpredictable things. Don't. Non drinker. But yes, spiritually, it's. You know what, the flavors, the flavor. The flavor stuff. But then, yeah, the flavor's good.

[Hayley Williams]

Flavor's not bad because it's real.

[John Horn]

Yeah, I'm gonna say it's a. It's a 7, but if it had the lightness of a Haribo with this flavor. 8.8.5.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Haribo is notoriously hard to chew.

[John Horn]

No, gelatinous. It's sticky, but it's. It's not thick.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It is.

[John Horn]

This is thick.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Haribo is tough.

[John Horn]

No, no, peaches. Not the.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Oh, the peaches.

[John Horn]

Yeah.

[Joe Coscarelli]

That's not Haribo. That's not main Haribo.

[Hayley Williams]

You should try the watermelon ones of these.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You're talking about the peaches.

[John Horn]

They're lighter peaches.

[Joe Coscarelli]

It is tougher than the peaches, but.

[John Horn]

The watermelon is a little lighter, softer.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Than, like, the cherries or whatever.

[Hayley Williams]

The. Steph, the producer writer that I wrote Parachute with, and she. She wrote with me for Petals for Farmer too. I found this company from her, and she. She always sends them from London. But this is the first time I've had the strawberry one.

[Joe Coscarelli]

All right.

[John Horn]

Oh, okay.

[Hayley Williams]

So the watermelon is better.

[John Horn]

Okay, Good to know.

[Hayley Williams]

I think you all would like that. I implore you to give the candy kittens another try.

[Joe Coscarelli]

But you're sticking with your 7.3.

[Hayley Williams]

Yeah, I'm there.

[John Horn]

Like, it's like you just.

[Joe Coscarelli]

You just want more.

[Hayley Williams]

I think I'm just hungry too. I'm just like, wow.

[John Horn]

No, we. I mean, like, top back of my. It's sticking around.

[Hayley Williams]

Like, in the teeth.

[John Horn]

No, no, no. The flav of, like, the O to that is like, it's at the top. I'm going down to 65. I'm sorry. I should be over it by now. Yeah, I'm sorry. I know in the time we're talking, it's just.

[Hayley Williams]

I need to leave.

[Joe Coscarelli]

Like, your pitchfork scores.

[John Horn]

Wow. Saved you for the end there, Joe. Geez.

[Hayley Williams]

Oh, my God.

[John Horn]

What a tremendous conversation. Haley Williams, thank you. Appreciate you being here.

[Hayley Williams]

I loved this.

[John Horn]

It's a joy for us. A true joy. Every episode of Popcast [e-mail] popcast podcast as aliens. We have merch. Just. It's in the description. The link is in the description. Go buy a mug, like, and subscribe.

[Joe Coscarelli]

First and then go.

[John Horn]

Yeah, like, and subscribe first and then if you find where the T shirts are. I made new T shirts recently. Go get a T shirt. We're on Instagram, we're on TikTok, we're on YouTube and all of those places. Credits in link and bio. We'll be back next week. Bye.

[Hayley Williams]

Bye. Ain't it fine? Living in the world? And it could be all alone?