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Power Hour Optometry
The Big Optical Playbook: The Strategy Behind Patient Capture and Optical Growth in Your Practice
01:01:15
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Optometry's biggest and longest running show. I'm your host, Eugene Schatzman and today I am joined by Megan Maloney. If you haven't worked with Megan directly, Megan is an amazing leader. She's one of the most respected collaborators in the eye care industry and she's held senior roles across some of the largest corporate players in optical, including Essoler, Exotica and National Vision. And today she brings that perspective to independent eye care practice practice owners so that you get to hear some of the things she learned there directly. And this episode is really about what some of the big players know and also what some of the trends are with your patients today. So let's talk about the big players. What do they believe about the market? What do they believe about your patients? What are they doing behind the scenes to win those patients, retain them and increase their lifetime value? One stat that like blew me away that Megan shares during the episode is that corporate and big box optical players are counting on seeing 4 out of 4, 4 to 5 out of every 10 patients after that patient has already had their exam with an independent eye care practice. Think about that. You did the exam, you built a relationship, you made the recommendation and they are experiencing and expecting a significant percentage of those patients to walk out of your practice and walk into theirs.
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B
Why?
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A
So we talk about why that happens and we get and we talk about that during the conversation. We talk about strategy, retail psychology, patient retention, merchand, and then we also shift to the changing eyewear consumer. What, what are what from her position as the CEO of a very successful frame company. Now, what is Megan seeing about fashion trends? The things that get consumers engaged and excited, independent brands, smart glasses. And then we even touch a little bit on leadership. More than anything, this is a conversation about competing smarter. So if you're an independent practice owner or you work in an independent practice and you want a clearer look at how larger companies think, how they operate, but also you want to get some insight into what trends are happening with your patients. This is an episode that helps you get a very real advantage because part of knowing their playbook is also knowing how you can compete and out compete. Make sure you're subscribed on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your shows. I look forward to hearing your feedback@eugene shotsman.com or on the Power Hour website. And now here's my conversation with Megan Maloney. Megan Maloney, welcome to the Power Hour. Excited to have you on the show.
- [02:38]
C
Thank you for having me. Excited to be here.
- [02:40]
A
Okay, so for those and I, I know kind of your storied and really impressive career throughout the eye care industry relatively well. But for those who don't, maybe we'll start with a quick amount of background just for context, setting for the audience. Who are you and what's, what's your career been like in the eye care industry?
- [03:01]
C
Yeah, perfect. So I'm not going to age myself too much, but I've been in the industry quite a long time, multiple decades. I spent the majority of my career with one of the large global players, esselorlexotica, helping run retail, some of their retail brands as well as doing some work on the Essler side with the vision sources of the world. Following that I went to National Vision where I ran a product. I ran all things product, merchandising, store design as well and managed care. And most recently I've taken on the role of CEO of Europa Eyewear. So I've been in the industry a long time and I've had the benefit of having a lot of different roles short of finance. I think I've probably done it all and I've been with some of what I consider some of the industry's leading organizations. I just will tack on to that. One of the other things that I've been able to be a part of, which I feel super lucky about, is the Optical Women's Association. This is not a plug, but I've been very active in the OWA at least for the past seven, eight years and I'm now the president of that organization. And that's really given me a whole different view of the industry overall.
- [04:18]
A
That's awesome. And you know what's really cool for from if I think about value to listener perspective, is that learning from you is also learning from some of the largest companies in the industry. And I don't know what secrets you are and you are not allowed to share, but I'm certainly going to ask you about some merchandising best practices come coming up shortly. But the reality is that, you know, large companies have business intelligence that's hard for. Yes, that that's hard for independence to gather. And so it's really cool to get your set of perspectives as we end up talking about some of those, some of those components. But you know, maybe we back up for a second before we dig into highly useful and tactical. Let's talk about your perspective on in your several decades in the industry, how has the industry changed and what have you been observing from your perspective and your vantage point?
- [05:17]
C
Yeah, so it's interesting because I've always said, or I had always said I hadn't been in an industry that's been so slow to change and accept innovation. And optical was kind of that in the early years in the 90s and 2000s. But I'd say in the last, call it seven to 10 years we have rapidly, rapidly changed. And a couple trends that I see the first, and I think one of the most impactful is just the massive consolidation. So you know, the control of the patient journey from exam to eyewear fulfillment is now sort of a core competitive advantage. And companies and you know them, they now span the control from manufacturing to labs to insurance to retail patient experience. And so those scaled players with that deep level of vertical integration are really reshaping the industry, I think to quite an extent. That's one of the big ones. I'd also say what's changed in the last 10 years is that vision plans are becoming more powerful, more scrutinized, but more powerful. And vision insurance used to be relatively straightforward, but today I'd say it's more strategic and scrutinized, but it's certainly influencing the patient flow and the product mix and it's causing pricing pressures and reimbursement pressures that you all know about. And I also see those vision plans evolving from sort of this discount vehicle into these healthcare engagement platforms. And so that's having a massive impact on our industry as well. I guess I'd touch on two more. One that I see from my vantage point is that lens innovation is kind of quietly driving margin and growth. And there's been this move towards premiumization, digitization and lenses remain the highest margin but least kind of visible battleground. And so innovation continues to justify but push pricing. And then there's these things like myopia management that are also playing a role there. And then lastly there's several. But I'm just going to wrap it up with this last one which I think is sort of, I call it tech and data. And the optometric practice has modernized itself significantly over the last 10 years with things like digital refractions and advanced imaging and retinal screenings, things you know way better than I do. Practice management systems tied into patient recalls and managed care integration, all those things. But I think practices have evolved and they're acting more like, they're also acting more like integrated healthcare businesses. So moving from just selling products to really owning the patient, I think the long term winners will sort of adopt that technology so that they can control the end to end Journey as well.
- [08:13]
A
Yeah. And you know, I, I think about those four categories and kind of want to tackle them one at a time because I think it'll be a lot of interesting conversation. I wonder if maybe we can start by talking a little bit about this whole concept of, as you're describing it, like the vertical integration of patient care. And I imagine, you know, I'm going to name a name just to, just to be, just to be that guy. But the reality is that, you know, if you walk into a LensCrafters, it's a well optimized machine. You're picking frames on the board that are manufactured by the same company that owns LensCrafters. You're, you're sending, you're picking lenses that are, that are, as you mentioned, highly profitable but also manufactured by that same company.
- [09:05]
C
Yes.
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A
And you're oftentimes you're seeing a doctor who, depending on what state you're in, who's an employee of that company. And then you're, you're talking to an optician who's an employee of that company. And then you're walking out and you're getting messaging and, and communication from maybe your local LensCrafters, but with a lot of overtones of the product and services that that larger company offers.
- [09:30]
B
Right.
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A
So knowing that. Right. That is a vertically integrated thing. There are two lines of question I have for you, and this is, and one of them is like, what can we learn? What do these guys do well that everyday practice owners can learn? And the second line of question, which we'll come back to is how can we compete? Because what I just described feels like an overwhelming monopoly ish type of thing. And I don't mean that in a, in anything other than how it feels to a lot of people. But the reality is I, I coach and I teach a lot of practices to compete with, with that. But I'd be really curious to hear your perspective as to how you, how, how people compete with the big box players and with groups like that. But let's start on the beginning. Is that what do these people do really, really well that we can learn from?
- [10:24]
C
Yeah. It's funny because as I think about my career, you know, I went from the biggest, the largest global player I saw exotica to a bit smaller with National Vision, which is sort of independent but large chain. And now I'm with a small, small guy. We're just a small independent frame company. So, so what they do well is number one, they do, they know their patient, their data is unmatched, they understand who's coming in. And when they have strong CRM systems and patient recall and they have spend against driving traffic to their locations, they do that well. It also helps that they have EYEMED so they can drive the EYEMED patients. So large scale retail has a strong marketing and CRM engine and great data.
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A
Now when you say they know their patient well, like what do you mean by this? Like what does that, what does that really mean?
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C
So they very, they have very strong CRM systems that help them understand their, the end to end patient. They have very clear segmentation like who they're serving, demographic, you know, demographics of their patient base. They have a very good understanding of the, of how the levers to you to pull to get patients to come in and when they're going to come in and what they're going to buy. And therefore they could kind of complete this whole CRM cycle digitally to make sure that they're just feeding that flywheel.
- [11:53]
A
And that's, you know, that, that's one I think another way of saying is like they have good marketing on the outside meaning attracting new patients in the door. And then once they know about those patients, they have good segmentation to know that not all messages serve all patients. So you gotta be able to communicate differently with a patient who may be a progressive wearer, 55 years old than a patient who is first time in glasses in college or something like that.
- [12:24]
C
You got it. They can be highly efficient with their marketing spend and highly personalized. They do that well. The other thing they do much more, they do very well. Which I think the independent channel could learn from. This is my perspective in my, in my time working on both sides of the business, they do board management. Well, this is where data plays a role. But they know what sells and they have the best sellers on the frame boards all the time. And they have figured out how to make sure that it's less subjective and what they stock is very data driven. And so their capture rates are much higher than you'd see sort of on the independent side because they have what the patient wants. And so again I think that's a little bit of.
- [13:10]
A
And so on the merchandising side, because I think this is a really, really good point, is that. Let's talk about what, what typically. So I understand the concept of having the best sellers on the board and knowing what sells and paying attention to that. And there are a number of tools that allow independents to do that. But in addition to that, what are other tips, tricks, suggestions, techniques and kind of meticulously managed elements that need to be present in a practice in order to ensure that the retail side is successful.
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C
From a merchandising perspective, yeah, I think it starts with knowing who you're serving. So you kind of can't, you can't serve everybody. You gotta figure out what you're trying to build and pick a lane and make sure that you're delivering that experience. I think it's knowing your patient days, I think it's ensuring that you have someone who's leading those buying decisions that is data driven. You know, we see this as we go and visit practices and we have some little expert at this and then we have some that are really leaving it to someone at the front of the house. And it's very subjective, but I think really understanding and having those, whoever is responsible for the buying decision asking, like, show me the data, what should I have on my board? What's selling at a broader level and what am I missing? I think it's understanding what patients are willing to pay for. So again, it's back to knowing who you're serving. But a lot of the reason, this is what, this is what we thrived on at retail, to be honest, this is what I try to combat in my new life. But we thrived on the fact that we knew that 4 to 5 out of 10 people that go to an independent are going to leave that independent and go buy their eyewear at a retailer. And that's why we had so much business that was coming.
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A
Say that again. You, you guys had the data to say that you thought that 4 out of 5 patients would leave the independent
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C
and 4 to 5 out of 10. 4 to 5 based on conversion rate. Yeah, yeah. It's very different at retail. The conversion rates are much higher because you don't let that happen. So a big part of a retailer's business is just counting on the fact that folks going to an independent doctor are going to leave and come to a retailer to get their eye fulfilled.
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A
So, and why do patients do that? Like from what, what, what was. From the perspective of that retailer, what, what was the justification that a patient had to say, okay, my independent couldn't serve me?
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C
It's so we, it was data driven. Again, the, the research would say I might, my data might be a couple of years dated, but it's directionally correct. The majority of the time the patient left an independent and came to a large scale retailer was assortment, couldn't find what they wanted and price. That was the two key drivers. And so, and a lot of that assortment piece is just lack of understanding who you're serving and what those, what those folks expect to find when they get there.
- [16:11]
A
Right. So it's interesting because you're saying, hey, make sure you understand both for patient communication and marketing, who you're trying to serve. And like you said, kind of pick a lane and make sure you understand who most valuable patients are. And number two is then optimize your business for those patients. So whether it's optimize the retail side for what those patients like to see and have, and then possibly optimize the patient communication side to be able to make those patients feel like the messaging is relevant to them.
- [16:45]
C
And price, price is a big driver of why those patients don't buy in the practice. So I would, my advice would be to be sure that again, assuming all customers, not just low income consumers, but assuming that all patients like that want and value value, be sure you have a value offering because that was a question of value.
- [17:08]
A
Like let's, let's talk about that. Like how does, how does value work in the optical from your vantage point?
- [17:16]
C
From my vantage point, a big, so my past company, as you know, we were in the value sector and we did see a lot of outside prescriptions coming in because they couldn't afford to buy what was it, or didn't want to, could afford it, but didn't want to.
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A
So why just perceive that they're independently expensive.
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C
Yeah, exactly. Just perceive so, so it's all relative to the experience. And, and then folks feeling like they paid an amount that was fair for what they got and what they expected to pay. So it's definitely a perception. But I do feel like a lot of times this channel is missing that there are people there that don't want to spend a lot of money no matter what their income.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And it's, and it's interesting because I think again, it's like if you think about retail psychology, it's like you want to anchor somebody. Like you know, the second that a patient wants to make a price decision, you have to anchor them somewhere. So if you anchor them with an ad that says two for 99.
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C
Right.
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A
That's a different anchor than me showing you something that's, you know, a $599 frame and then you end up walking out with, in the first one you could walk out with a $250 frame and feel like you got ripped off. In the second one you could walk out with a $250 frame and feel like you got a great deal and feel great.
- [18:41]
C
100% agree. 100% agree.
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A
Right. So because I, and it's one of the things is where like you said, you kind of, kind of have to pick a lane. And a company like America's Best does a good job of targeting a very specific type of consumer. But at the same time, I bet their optical also has a lot of frames that are not necessarily the biggest budget offerings.
- [19:05]
C
Absolutely. I think it's more of the mindset of absolutely. But if a patient wants to pay $99 or $149, excellent. Thank you for coming to us and choosing us. And we will serve you. And that's, you know, can kind of prove over time as you well know that a lifetime value of the customer is much more important than the transaction on the day.
- [19:29]
A
Yeah, 100%. And I, I, I wonder, you know, back to kind of some of the merchandising stuff, is there anything layout wise that was super successful across the board?
- [19:42]
C
That's, that could be a really long debate and discussion honestly. But, and there's been lots of things tried over the years and we've done. I've been involved in so many research projects. It really depends on your like for an America's Best. It was, you know, super clear that navigation had to start with and this is early days, things are evolving there as well. But super clear that men's, women's like that has to, you have to start there. And then price, it was a price driven obviously this was like a Walmart. That's not true everywhere. So I think again, know who you're serving and then that would dictate how you merchandise your flow. I think it's very different by practice
- [20:26]
A
and I've, I've heard topics like eyeline as a, as a point of discussion. I've heard topics like, you know, letting, making sure that the frames are accessible while the patient is waiting in certain cases. I, well, anything else that kind of fits into those general categories?
- [20:46]
C
I think, I think you've said it, I think very clear. Navigation, whatever your structure is, there's four or five ways to slice navigation. Whichever one's right for you, it's just clearly segmenting that. One of the things we found, and I found it all my life is that men get very nervous that they're going to buy a women's frame. So being very clear about what's a men's frame, women don't have that same fear. Eyeline is important. Making sure no holes on the frame board. I think, yeah.
- [21:15]
A
Why are holes important?
- [21:17]
C
Generally the holes on the frame board are signaling two things. One, you're either out of a bestseller and so consumer's perspective is they're missing something. It also kind of just is a sloppy look maybe indicating that you're not managing your selection well. So looking like you have a full frame board is important. And so even if you have to leverage pop or things to fill the frame boards and move them while you're waiting on a replacement or a shipment, it's always a bad signal to have holes on the frame.
- [21:57]
A
Yeah. And it totally makes sense. Again as you said it, psychologically I'm like well you know what? They probably don't have what I want because they got a couple holes and those are probably the frames I would have wanted. Right. Like that's. Yeah, I'm not saying that that's really even might not be the case. But psychologically I'm looking at those holes, I'm like, well you know, these guys probably don't, you know, they probably sold the stuff I would have wanted.
- [22:20]
C
Right, right, right. And I'd say the advantage that an independent has versus a large chain, A large chain is going to be super reliant on pop, let's say because a large chain is a bit more self sufficient. The customers kind of on their own in a lot of cases to find a frame that's not the case in the ECB channel. So the patient can have the one on one time with the optician. And storytelling is very important about you know, why and what a patient is buying. So I just leverage that little advantage.
- [22:57]
A
Yeah. And I guess that that's a good question is that, you know, I imagine that a independent has more flexibility with their staff and has more commitment possibly from their staff and has the. And that' say that there aren't great people who work for big box stores. It's just a matter of, you know, how, how you motivate, how you get them to feel like more of a team and how you get them to feel like they, their work truly matters at the, at the individual location level. It's just easier to do that from an independent level versus a national company.
- [23:30]
C
No doubt about it. It's an advantage on the independent side. Yeah. And I think the one on one patient interaction time, I mean some of the changes, you know they're about volume and so it's just get, get them in the lane, get. And it's. And the result of that is the patient shopping experience. It's kind of self service.
- [23:47]
A
Were there must haves on handoffs that like Absolutely had to happen every fricking time in the corporates. And yes. What, what can you tell me about that?
- [23:58]
C
Yes, I would tell you that the chains are very savvy at training on handoff and there's, they're in process driven the sales, not great at it. I mean turnover hits the chains, you know, at a rate that's hard to manage anything. But I would say their, their sales process is codified. Like this is how we serve our patients step by step and hand handoff is a big, a big part of it. Yes.
- [24:24]
A
And it's interesting to me that you know that their advantage is scale and system.
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C
Yes.
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A
But the individual locations advantage could also like nothing preventing the individual location from getting from, from getting system from getting systems and it's also nothing preventing individual locations from joining one of the many GPOs or alliances or whatever to, to be able to get product at scale, to get that scale based discounts.
- [24:55]
C
Right.
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A
But at the same time it's the management philosophy that you know, a big company has can also be. It's an advantage and a disadvantage because you know, it drives. That's right, whatever. But, but it also is like you can, you can plug somebody in who was, you know, a server at a restaurant yesterday and today is slinging frames. But that's right. And that may be to some extent an advantage with hiring, but that is also not necessarily an advantage with patient experience.
- [25:29]
C
I would agree and I think if you buy into the fact that the data would suggest there's other reasons, but the majority of the reason that the materials are not being bought and those folks are walking out after the exam and going somewhere else is because of selection of price. If you systematized what that journey looked like, at a minimum, the doctor has to keep the patient on the patient experience side. But keeping the materials, if you systematize those things, you'll change your conversion outcome.
- [26:00]
A
Yeah. And so it's really the understanding who you're serving and then like you said, so your selection is a must have that you're constantly managing and maybe some elements of your merchandising and then your, the, the, the way that price and value is presented. Because I don't think it's all about like having the cheapest pair of glasses.
- [26:23]
C
Absolutely not. 100% not. It's not about cost, it's about value.
- [26:27]
A
Right, right. And that's an interesting distinction.
- [26:32]
C
I'm going to add two things to that really quickly because this will not be popular. This will not be popular. But I'm going to say it, anyway, the opportunity is to lean into the vendor partners for what they should have on the board. They know they have lots of data, and it's such an emotional thing. And I know that the individual practices know their patients best and so, and so the periphery is valid, but I would lean in and require the vendors to say what is going to work in my practice the best. The second thing is it's a real opportunity right now with all this consolidation we talked about earlier. And you. You've all seen this, it's becoming, even more than ever in the last two, three years, a sea of sameness. It is like everything looks the same. And the more you can differentiate and be unique and tell the story of differentiation, I think those are going to be the winners.
- [27:34]
A
Yeah, I think that's a, that's an interesting point. And I think there's, like, there's almost competing objectives in that last, in that last thing you just said. Because for sure, for sure, the reality is that, you know, sometimes you go into an optical and you're like, why did you make that decision? And they'll say, well, because Suzy really likes green frames and Susie is our optician, and Susie will sell green frames a lot because she. But their perception of a lot is like, well, more than zero because we're surprised that anyone bought those frames. But, but the, the truth is oftentimes those, those decisions are made based off of one optician's preference, and they kind of position themselves as, hey, I'm a, I'm a stylist, I'm a fashionista, I'm a whatever. But like, that person's perspective, you know, it may depend on their mood, it may depend on what they saw in a magazine. It may depend on whatever. Right? And so, of course, your opticians have to believe in your inventory, but I think they also have to believe that the, that the product that, that, that they're selecting, it has to serve is. Is able to serve the patients. And that, yes, a lot of that, to your point, comes from data. Yes, I think understanding what's. I, I think understanding the inventory in your practice and what's actually turning is. Is super important. So totally agree with you. But the second part, I. How do you do more of that where it's like you're, you're not unique or. Right. You want to make your inventory feel unique. But listen, patients like black frames. Like, it's true. So, so the. Maybe this is where we can talk a little bit about. In your most recent work with Europa, and you say, oh, it's a small, small company. I mean you work with a lot of locations, right? Like how many?
- [29:31]
C
We do, yeah, we do, we work with. It's small relative to what I've come from. But yes, we work with a lot
- [29:36]
A
of thousands of thousands that you guys are in, you know, some very popular brands. So I'm super curious, you know, as you've, as you've had a front row seats to or as you Europa, maybe not you personally, but as Europa has had a front row seat to like changing fashions and things like that, how do you capitalize on your last point of you want to have some stuff that's unique but you also want to make sure that you're making data driven decisions of what's actually selling.
- [30:07]
C
Yes, that's a great point. So I think about it a little differently in that we know that most of these practices have commitments with the large players, insurance commitments and the like. You have to do that. I would lean on those players to make sure that they have the fastest turning product in the locations. I personally, if it were my practice I would want to reserve as much of the board space for those non very commercialized brands I'd say because like I said, you can walk down the mall, you can walk down the strip mall, you can, there are, they are a sea of sameness. As much of you are bored as you can. There's a surge which I love, it serves us well. But there's a surge in independent brands that's taking over and they serve all kinds of consumer types. So again if you understand your consumer there's like that, that's point one. Then there's what are my commitments to the insurance? What are my commitments to the big guys? And then what other companies can I work with to serve my other consumer types? And I'm going to lean into them to make sure those boards are turning. I think that's the secret personally. And like I said, there's this rise in even consumers. Like they want the indie brands, they want these small batch designers. This whole scarcity trend is becoming very big craftsmanship and exclusivity.
- [31:37]
A
So let's talk about what is happening with a patient of today versus a patient of 10 years ago. And what are some of those preference points looking like? Because I think when you're touching on indie brands it's like, it's interesting. But I think an indie brand only works if you can tell the story, right?
- [31:56]
C
Absolutely, 100%.
- [31:59]
A
So it's the when, when I go to a restaurant and they say well we have this really great craft beer that you know, was brewed at a local brewery six, six miles down the road. And you know, they, they use the, the greatest hops ever known to man. And I really love this beer. That's a story that my server is telling me that makes me want to try something that I did not recognize and I would, Norton would not normally try, but now I'm super interested because this person has endorsed it. So to me there's like a component of staff training that comes with, with, with any, with any brand. And you know, it's. The brand sells itself to some extent if it's like a Ray Ban or something, and it's very popular with consumers. But a brand that no one's really heard of requires more management from an independent. Right?
- [32:49]
C
A hundred percent. But what you just described at that brewery, that's what you institutionalize in your sales process. Like if you can institutionalize a process that says here's how we do storytelling. And here, which is not just about the frame or the frame brand, it's about how is this office unique? I think that's a big part. I think differentiation is going to make or break this, this channel at the end of the day. But you asked me how the patient has changed in the last 10 to 15 years. I would say from my vantage point that today's patient is way more informed, they're more price aware, they're less loyal, but they're also more engaged and they're willing to invest if they see value, as we talked about earlier. But in today's world, these, these patients walk in oftentimes, they've googled their symptoms, they've researched their lens options, they've compared frame prices online. And they may not be accurate, but they're more opinionated and aware for sure. And so I think they're also expecting a healthcare experience that feels more seamless and personalized, just like they're expecting in their retail experience. And I think that's fundamentally changed how practices have to operate. So they have to assume their customer knows more and create personalization and create distinct, unique experiences for them.
- [34:14]
A
Yeah, and Megan, to add to that, I have some data that shows that, you know, when we think about our practices, both corporate and independent, competing with online options. And so one of the things that we started looking at was demand for online, online frames and online glasses. And we started tracking this, I think in like 2019. And what was interesting is that in 2020, 2021, obviously, yeah, there was a huge surge of online and it actually like kind of stayed like 21 was like a really heavy online demand type of thing. I think that's when patients realized they could buy glasses online and they didn't have to worry about walking into a physical location. What's interesting is that every year since then that the numbers have declined. So the amount of demand that for online glasses and I'm simply saying how many times does somebody type in online glasses onto Google or something like that, that number has declined. And then you think of the brands that are associated with online glasses that those numbers have generally declined. Except the second half of 2025 there was a bounce back. And the first, I would say like the first quarter of 2026 I saw numbers that were significantly higher, like I know double digits over last year and it wasn't the first half, it was the first quarter of 2026 I saw numbers that were significantly higher in terms of online glasses demand or curiosity or
- [35:50]
C
how
- [35:52]
A
from, from patients in the United States. And so I'm curious what you, what you're seeing on your end and what, and how, how you would, how you'd compare the role of the independent and also the role of any, you know, physical retailer to the role of an online retailer.
- [36:11]
C
So it's interesting that you say that because I haven't seen 2026 data yet, but I concur with the data that you just talked about since 2019. And I think everybody, especially the large players during COVID times, got behind this idea that the world was going to shift overnight and, and people were going to start buying their glasses online and once that happened, they would never come back. And that didn't happen. And a lot of us invested a lot of money building those digital experiences. It didn't come. That said, it's hard to do in the independent channel, but I believe having an omnichannel experience is critical. I do think, and I'll be interested in seeing 2026 data when that comes out. I do think we will continue to see it's, it's leveled out, it'll grow at small, at a small pace. I don't think it'll ever be a significant part of the business. But I do think having an omnichannel experience is important. So booking your exam online, being able to shop frames online, being able to understand your lens options online, I think there's definitely something with contact lenses online that we have to pay attention to in this channel. But it's not been the runaway that we all believe because at the end of the day people still want to try it on, touch and feel it, have someone fit it to their faces and make sure that they see. So I think we need to pay attention.
- [37:44]
A
Yeah. And I think that's, that's a, that's an interesting nuance is that if again, you can tell the story. Right. And so it's all about helping a patient understand something because we're in our practices, you know, whatever, 40 hours a week, however many thousands of hours a year a patient is in the practice, I don't know, for like an hour every year and a half. So what we assume to know or what we assume they already know is completely new to them. And so, for example, one of the things I always encourage practices to talk about is really talk up the 17 point fit that they have for glasses. Right. So you'd say we're adjusting this, we're adjusting that. We're going to double check this, we're going to triple check that. So when you come back, we're going to do that in a way that only a person can do.
- [38:34]
C
Exactly.
- [38:34]
A
And, and I think if you can, and we talk about it as like future pacing the experience. If you can evaluate if, if somebody can understand that that is going to be included in their experience in buying a frame from you. The, the physical retailer that almost takes the, and you're like, oh, well, I definitely want that, but I don't really think I'm going to get that. And then you would do that way before they even get to the optical in some cases. Or you would do that as a start of the interaction in the optical where you future pace what happens after they select glasses. Because one of the things they have to do is make a decision of am I going to do this or am I, I know I can get glasses for like 12 online. That's what they all believe, right? They know.
- [39:17]
C
Yes.
- [39:18]
A
We all know the data that when they start shopping for 12 glasses, the transaction is actually going to be a lot more. But I know I can get glasses for $12 online. So this, you know, 250, $250 thing that is being put in front of kind of expensive. Well, as you said earlier in the show is like the value is something we really have to consider.
- [39:37]
C
Yes. I'd also say, I'd also say one of the things we worry about a lot or we think about a lot, especially in my prior lives, was what you and I just talked about is how the online eyeglass purchase process has evolved over the years. But a turning point might be, might be if and when, which will be when online eye exams can happen where the patient's sitting at home. That could change the dynamic. So right now they still have to be in the office for the most part and they're just going to buy it. It's less friction. All the things could be a tipping point if we see that dynamic change.
- [40:19]
A
Yeah, really good point. And I think also not the most popular opinion, but I also agree with you, is that it is if the perception of the patient is that I don't have to go into an office, we're just going to have to make sure that the patient understands the benefits of going into the office. And there may be some patients for whom it may be okay to sit at home. And those are probably not patients. You want it in your chair. Anyway, we have to take a break. When we come back, I want to zero in a little bit more on some of the fashion fashion trends and possibly include some of the latest trends with technology in it. So we'll be right back in the power hour. Hey there, it's Eugene and I want
- [40:59]
B
to let you in on something. So you've been to conferences before. You come home fired up and then Monday morning hits and it's back to the grind. The ideas don't stick, the plan never gets made, and six months later your practice is in the same place. So I know that pain. I've been to those conferences with you and that is not happening. At this new event called I Care Boss Live. You've heard the story of ICARE Boss and now there's an event, Icare Boss Live. It's September 16th through 18th in Cleveland. Two and a half days. We're bringing together 200 of the best practice owners in Icare for a one of a kind event that combines speakers, peer learning, mastermind groups and industry innovation, all designed around one goal. You leave with a 90 day plan and you can actually execute it and get stuff done. And we're going to tackle some real stuff. Exam only rates, revenue per patient, people problems, leadership, AI and technology, specialty growth, the things that keep people up at night. We're going after it and we're doing it in a room full of practice
- [42:01]
A
owners that are just as serious about growth as you are.
- [42:04]
B
This is not a conference, it's not a seminar. It's something different. There are only 200 spots, so if you want to be in on this. This is not publicly announced, just on this podcast. Go to the powerpractice.com click events, click apply. Now. This is invite only.
- [42:21]
A
It's not for everybody. So you have to apply.
- [42:24]
B
We'll ask you a few questions and if it's a fit, we'll invite you to register this event. I care. Boss Live is going to sell out. Do not sit on it.
- [42:32]
A
I invite you to apply. Right now we're back on the Power Hour. I've got Megan Maloney with me and I very much appreciate all of your unique perspectives. And I knew when we set up the show that you would have an incredible vantage point of the industry. And right now I wanted to kind of go back and zoom in on insights that you can give practice owners from your vantage point right now at leading a very successful frame company. And I want to hear more about styles, shifts in styles, things that independents and retailers should be thinking about and specifically like the role of technology as it's, as it's coming out. So let's start with, you know, what's selling now and what's the consumer trending towards.
- [43:21]
C
Got it. So I would say as we see it, the biggest kind of excitement in eyewear today is sort of this intersection of fashion and individuality. So that's another trend we've seen over the last 10 years. Eyewear's moved away from a medical device and more to a, a fashion accessory, which is great for all of us. And what we're seeing is bold statement acetates on one end and then very sort of minimalistic refined metals on the other. And like I said, I think this surge in independent brands is giving practices a real differentiation. I'd also say there's this trend of, like I was talking about earlier, scarcity, the scarcity driven trend. So hot high end limited run frames are having a moment. Like we're seeing that. We've had several limited editions in our American optical line lately and other examples and they are selling out like it is. It's all, as you mentioned, about storytelling, uniqueness, individuality. People don't want to be the same as everybody else.
- [44:26]
A
Wait, so describe that, the whole scarcity component, like how does that work? And I mean, you didn't give a specific example of something you guys did, but I, I'm just curious what's driving that whole experience?
- [44:41]
C
I think what's driving it is that consumer shift toward individuality and not sameness. So I think there's a place for both. So you still see branding and luxury being important and people wanting to have, you know, logos on their frames. And then you see the another consumer type that's very anti logo and very much about individuality or even quiet luxury is playing A role. So practices that have things that are unique and you don't see everywhere, but very sellable and commercial are winning. That's what we're seeing. And they're seeing higher attach rates. Does that help?
- [45:23]
A
Yeah. And so when you talk about the limited edition run type of thing.
- [45:28]
C
Yes.
- [45:28]
A
Give me an example of how that works.
- [45:31]
C
Yep. So I'll give you our example, but there's several of them. But I'll give you a Europa example. We have done three limited edition runs. Well, I'll talk about two ones coming. Limited edition runs on our sort of darling brand, which is called American Optical. We only made a thousand frames and immediately. And this relies on good storytelling and a marketing investment, social and all the things behind it. But you can create a story around a limited edition. Even some of these are, some of these frame vendors are like literally numbering them like you're going to get number 600. But a limited edition creates scarcity and the minute this thing goes out, it's gone. And we've proven it time and time again. We and our competitors have proven it time and time again. So independence can play a role in that. And we need to be better as frame companies of helping independents understand how they could play a role in that.
- [46:28]
A
But so, so tell me. I would play if I am an independent and I have an option for a limited, kind of a limited edition sort of sale component. But it seems to me like number one, you have to educate me as to why this is limited edition and then you have to teach me to educate my patient about this particular brand and, and the, and all the things related to why I should care. That there's a limited edition frame that won't, that won't be available to people in the future.
- [47:03]
C
Yes, exactly. Right. There's all those logistics that need to be worked out and truthfully, there's work to be done for us on the frame side to translate this idea to this channel. Right now we see a lot of it translating on the.com, like on our own websites or key accounts. Key accounts embrace this limited edition idea. Even key accounts that are non optical like Nordstrom's or Bloomingdale's, they embrace that. And why an ECP should care is because we can help create momentum to drive that traffic into the locations. And once you get them, it's sort of your job to keep them. But we can help drive that traffic looking for that sort of scarcity. Yeah.
- [47:48]
A
And the idea is that you guys are the ones driving the patient.
- [47:52]
C
Yes.
- [47:53]
A
But I wonder if kind of going back to your point earlier in the conversation about how national, how national retailers are good at understanding which patients would prefer which types of brands. Wouldn't it make sense for an ECP to partner with you or you to even pay for some of the marketing that you absolutely do to promote a brand to and to promote this kind of limited edition concept? Because to me what that does is it actually brings back a patient who wasn't thinking about buying glasses sooner.
- [48:32]
C
Exactly, exactly.
- [48:34]
A
What's the easiest way to grow? Well, sure, you can get more new patients. That's the hardest. I think increasing the frequency of patient visits is the easiest in my opinion. And then the increasing the average transaction size is somewhere in the middle.
- [48:51]
C
Couldn't agree more. And it's one of the things that the large scale players focus a lot of attention on, which is how do we get our patients to buy more stuff? Buy more stuff in between purchase cycles and limited editions are a really good way to do it. And again, I can't stress enough just this evolution to sea of sameness which is being created, as you all know by consolidation is posing a unique opportunity for ECPs to create an environment in a retail experience that's unique and that's, you know, more and more consumers want unique.
- [49:29]
A
Yeah. And so it's. Is it just about the frames that you carry or is it more about or, or are there other things that can play into creating a unique experience for a patient?
- [49:41]
C
I think it's yes and yes. I think it's about what you carry, your assortment as well as your personalization. And you know, it's again, it's back to your sales process a little bit harder to institutionalize. But like step one would be identify a few consumer types that you serve. And then which one is this that I'm seeing right now and what's my process for serving that patient? And the more personalized you can make it, the stickier that customer and patient is.
- [50:12]
A
Makes sense. Thinking about smart eyewear, what's your take on smart eyewear? How much consumers care about it and everybody and I see this from just about every frame company. Yes, there are a few big guys that have taken the, you know that, that have taken the brunt of the, both the marketing and also the benefits of the early sales. But listen, like Ray Ban metas are being sold on Amazon. They're not being sold. Yes, like I believe that it like you're, I, I have tracked this data. I don't want to necessarily share publicly right now but like I believe at least from what I can tell is the largest, the largest seller of Ray Ban metas is Amazon. And I can see how much market share they're getting to some extent. And it is substantial, like it is way more than the ECPs and specifically the independent ECPs. But even, you know, but, but even the, the big box stores that are affiliated because they're owned by the same company, it's like, yeah, you, you, you don't see that much sales activity going on there yet. But it could be all the early adopters just went on Amazon and then all. And then the next wave of consumers who are really excited about smart eyewear are going to expect those offerings from the ecp. That's at least my take. You tell me what you're seeing.
- [51:38]
C
I couldn't agree more. I would say it's early but growing and it's creating a lot of buzz. And manufacturers like Europa and others are always discussing when to jump in and who to partner with when we're ready to jump in. I do think Ray Ban meta. So we've been talking about smart eyeglasses my whole life in optical, literally for 30 plus years in optical, it has always been this niche buzz. And I actually do think that Ray Ban meta, I'll expand that a little bit, has maybe tipped from niche to becoming to creating something that's going to be more mainstream. So I have them personally, I find them incredibly useful and I'm addicted. I haven't convinced my colleagues why the use cases are worth the money, but I think it's still generating a lot of curiosity and foot traffic. And we will continue to watch it closely in terms of how ECPs should play a role, truthfully. And my experience here, because we've tried to scale, you know, Walmart was a very early adopter of Ray Bana. They put it in 3,000 locations, Walmart Optical, and they assumed it would go Luxottica retail. As you mentioned, you know, other chains, National Vision is carrying it. Those chains aren't good in the optical shop at selling technology. We just haven't figured out how to sell technical products. And when the patient wants us to set it up or diagnose technical issues, it all falls apart. That code needs to be cracked. But I feel like we have to pay attention because I do feel like it's going to become more mainstream and ECPs shouldn't try to become tech experts. I don't think they can. I don't think it's going to make sense for use of their time. But they should be translators or curators. They should help patients understand where smart eyewear actually can add value and kind of cut through the hype, but how to integrate it in their broader vision and lifestyle conversation. That's my opinion.
- [53:44]
A
You, you mentioned, and really a student observation, I think, but you mentioned that you have a pair. Is it your primary pair or is it your.
- [53:52]
C
It's not my primary pair. That's what I say. Yeah, it's not.
- [53:55]
A
That's where I think there's so much, there's so much. This is like, in my opinion, currently smartware is, or smart, at least. What I've seen and heard is that it's a, it's a, it's a nice second pair, but it's also not the most profitable second pair. So this is where it gets complicated and confusing because at the end of the day, the patient's managing their own wallet and they're like, well, I could spend a thousand. Let's just say I'm going to spend $1,000. What am I going to spend it on? What is that basket? And so if I'm going to spend it on stuff that's better marginality for the ecp, why would they bring it up? And so this is my kind of ask to the, to the frame manufacturers is consider that. Right? Like if you're going to invest in that technology, consider making it affordable, of course, for them, for the ECP from the ECP side. And I think it'll flop at the ECP that, for, at the ECP implementation level for the same two reasons that, that you just mentioned. One is that I think, you know, teaching a master optician tech how to do tech support on a, on a pair of, you know, oh, this thing won't connect to my phone. The Bluetooth is, you know, spotty. I'm going to bring it back and you got to troubleshoot it. Like, this isn't Geek Squad, right? Like this isn't exactly. And transitioning, some, some people will have no problem transitioning to becoming Geek Squad because they'll have, that they'll have staff who are naturally, you know, but even then, like, you're now spending a lot of time like, like those, the people that in the Apple Store are paid a lot of money to support technology that their company made great margin on. And so that's the second point is that if I don't have the marginality to be able to support the additional work, I'm going to have to do to, to, to, to offer to, to, to make sure that the, that it's an experience Enhancer, not an experienced detractor for my patient.
- [55:56]
C
Exactly.
- [55:57]
A
Have a lot of great incentive to, to carry smartware. So as a, as a frame manufacturer, I, I, I urge you to kind of think about this a little bit on behalf of, you know, practices that I've talked to. But I also think that it's, it's not a trend we can duck anymore.
- [56:13]
C
I agree. That's a great way to say it. And I think we're keenly aware of the margin issues with the existing products. We haven't seen technology getting cost down at a rate that's going to be attractive to this segment in the near term. So it is a challenge. I think everybody's watching.
- [56:31]
A
Yeah. Megan, as you think about, and this is maybe where we come back to some of your earlier comments about what's, where the industry is headed and where things are and where things have gone. And it's also interesting to hear you talk about how you've gone from a really big company to a big company to now a smaller company, but probably a company that's still bigger than, than most of the offices. Listening to this show, I'm curious, just for the last couple minutes is like what are, what are some leadership lessons that you would offer people who are running companies from the CEO seat? What are the kinds of things that you think would make people successful as they transition more into running their business and not just being in their business?
- [57:25]
C
That's a great question. So what I could say is that the biggest leadership lesson that I've learned moving into the CEO role at Europa is that it's not about having all the answers. Being the CEO is not about having all the answers. I don't have all the answers. It's about creating clarity. It's about building the right team and being brave on people decisions, but building the right team and then making sure the organization stays focused on what really matters the most. So you know, at the end of the day I feel like my job is to align people and model the behavior that I expect and then everything else will follow. And one of the toughest things I think that I've faced is, you know, our company's particular example has been we were a family owned company for 50 years and a successful one. And when I say small, it's not all that small. It's a mid market company that was family but sold to private equity. So my challenge has been sort of preserving this, what makes you look great, this culture with evolving to more of a culture of accountability and results matter and business matters. And how do you do that? How do you preserve culture and drive growth and results? That's. That's been my biggest challenge.
- [58:43]
A
And that's a really interesting challenge because I think that happens to every business when they go from being. We'll call it small, family owned to saying I, even if it's the same exact size business. But for, for. But they start injecting layers of accountability. All of a sudden, issues rise to the surface. And, you know, I'm gonna say this. John has been here for 22 years and he's been loyal and he's gone through. And he's been with us through hard times. And, you know, he stuck around, but yet John's not performing. So what do we do? Right, like, exactly. You know, how do you. And what advice would you give to people who are kind of in the midst of that sort of challenge where they're saying, I want to run it like a business, but I'm also like, these people are really loyal. They're good. They're, you know, they're, they're, they're sort of pillars of what. What we help build a business on.
- [59:36]
C
Yeah. I gotta tell you, I'm still learning on this one, Eugene. I would say that I think balancing results and culture is not about choosing one over the other. I think it's about kind of defining a culture that drives results. But that takes time. And I, I've learned, I think I've learned that you got to be fast on people decisions. I hate to say it. You got to be, ideally, you upskill John in your example. Ideally, you upskill John. That's the best scenario. But if that can't happen, then you have to be brave and make people decisions. Because that example of John is only frustrating the people that are really performing and, and doing well day in, day out.
- [60:16]
A
And so true. And because John at that point is setting a lower bar and everybody is then is like, well, why am I pushing so hard to raise the bar when John's like, totally fine skating by at a much lower level? So it really hurts your All Stars for sure.
- [60:32]
C
It totally. Or we're asking the All Stars to do more to make up for John and they see it. They. They know it. And so that's my best advice for now.
- [60:40]
A
I'm still learning. I think we're out of time for today. I think you've shared some really interesting perspectives on. This was so many different topics that we touched in this show. Thank you so much for sharing some of your wisdom, some of your perspective. It was a pleasure to have you on the show and I'm sure our audience will have lots of feedback and follow up and maybe we'll have you back again in the future.
- [61:03]
C
I'd love it. Thanks for having me. Enjoyed it. Thanks, Eugene. Sam.