Epstein Survivors: Live At CrimeCon | Have A Seat

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Epstein Survivors: Live At CrimeCon" | Have A Seat with Chris Hansen
Air Date: July 15, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this powerful and emotional episode, Chris Hansen sits down live at CrimeCon with three survivors of Jeffrey Epstein—Courtney Wild, Haley Robson, and Jennalisa Jones. These women, among the first victimized by Epstein in Palm Beach, share raw and deeply personal stories of their abuse, their battles for justice, and the ongoing struggle for transparency and accountability in one of the most notorious sex trafficking cases in modern history. The conversation delves into their experiences, the systemic failures that enabled Epstein, the enduring trauma they endure, and their relentless advocacy for the release of unreleased files and broader institutional change.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Initial Entrapment and Abuse by Jeffrey Epstein

• Grooming and Recruitment: Each survivor recounts how Epstein's network found and targeted them as vulnerable teens, often through friends under the guise of high-paying "massages."
  • Courtney Wild met Epstein at 14, lured by a friend at a birthday party (02:05). Her vulnerable home life made her susceptible to exploitation.
  • Haley Robson was recruited at 16 while in therapy for a previous sexual assault (03:08), noting, "Predators like Jeffrey Epstein know exactly who they can abuse and who they can get away with."
  • Jennalisa Jones believed she was simply giving a massage for $200—an amount that meant survival for her family (05:53).
• Normalization of Abuse: Survivors describe how Epstein and his associates systematically normalized sexual acts, exploiting their naivete and need.
  • “He normalized the nudity, he normalized the sexual acts. …for me, everything sexually that I encountered from him was very normal.” – Haley Robson (04:28)
• Loss of Innocence & Lifelong Impact:
  • "He took away my innocence... those are some of the darkest moments of my life." – Jennalisa Jones (08:40)

2. Network, Accountability, and Failure of Institutions

• Enablers: Discussion on Les Wexner, Epstein’s financier, and others who evaded accountability.
  • "For him to be able to manage Les Wexner's fortune and mismanage a billion dollars and there was no accountability... is just amazing to me." – Courtney Wild (09:10)
  • Survivors express disbelief that high-level enablers were unaware or not complicit (10:22).
  • Suspicions of surveillance and blackmail tactics used by Epstein to protect himself (10:51).
• Pam Bondi and Government Failures:
  • Survivors express deep anger towards former Attorney General Pam Bondi for failing to support them (21:43).
  • “She had the opportunity to stand with me and my survivor sisters, and she just turned her back on us.” – Courtney Wild (21:51)
• Insufficient Release of Files: Survivors argue that only a fraction of the 2.5 million Epstein files have been made public. They claim the government is withholding information to protect powerful individuals and institutions (19:35).
  • “Pam Bondi… told all of us to our faces, ‘If we go after these people in the files, our government will fall.’” – Jennalisa Jones (24:02)

3. Enduring Trauma and Fight for Justice

• Long-Term Impact: Survivors detail lasting repercussions—addiction, mental health struggles, and interrupted lives.
  • “Trauma is messy, right? …you just want to get through the next day, whatever that looks like.” – Haley Robson (15:29)
• Congressional Testimony: Survivors have taken their stories to Congress, frustrated that justice required such extreme, public action decades later (17:27, 18:03).
  • “It’s 14 year old me that’s doing that, not 30 year old me.” – Jennalisa Jones (18:03)
• Ongoing Threats and Retaliation: Private investigators allegedly hired to intimidate, threaten, and silence them (33:41).
  • “There is no guarantee that we’ll wake up tomorrow... we have families that we have to think about.” – Haley Robson (33:48)
• Critical Role of Plaintiffs’ Attorneys and Media:
  • Survivors credit dedicated lawyers and investigative journalists (notably Julie K. Brown and the Miami Herald) for breaking open the case (39:37-41:32).

4. Obstruction, Secrecy, and Blackmail

• Unreleased Files and Government Secrecy:
  • Survivors assert the government is sitting on millions of documents and is stonewalling even victims’ access to their own FBI reports (302s) (20:21).
  • “You’ll get it when the files come out and they’re released… I don’t trust this government.” – Haley Robson (20:21)
• International Implications: Survivors claim multiple governments would fall if all files were released, highlighting the global scale of Epstein’s blackmail operation (24:26).

5. Human Trafficking and Educational Opportunities

• Nature of Epstein's Crimes:
  • “Child abuse and exploitation, human trafficking… to its core.” – Haley Robson (43:05)
• Survivors want the world to see the reality of coercion, grooming, and the wide-ranging effects, emphasizing the urgent need for full transparency (43:23).

6. Death of Jeffrey Epstein: Suicide or Murder?

• Skepticism and Lack of Closure:
  • The survivors are divided—Jennalisa and Haley doubt the official suicide narrative, citing the highly suspicious circumstances and their own FBI briefing that was ambiguous at best (47:15–51:14).
    • “He didn’t kill himself. But someone didn’t kill him.” – FBI Agent at survivor meeting (50:14)
  • Courtney tries to weigh both sides but ultimately expresses doubt about suicide: “If it looks like a duck and quacks, it's a joke. So we all know better... I think somebody killed him." (54:01)

7. Ongoing Advocacy, Survivor Support, and Legacy

• Founding Survivors, Inc.:
  • All three are active in Survivors, Inc., supporting other victims and focusing on prevention and transparency (32:28; 58:00).
• Legacy:
  • Jennalisa Jones: "I was strong enough to fight for myself, but I was even stronger to fight for my children, other people’s children." (55:47)
  • Haley Robson: "To show others what it looks like to go from surviving to thriving." (56:44)
  • Courtney Wild: "My mission in life is to just let anybody know who's experienced sexual abuse or drug addiction that there's hope, and you can change it when you're ready, at any, any time." (57:21)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Predators like Jeffrey Epstein know exactly who they can abuse and who they can get away with.” – Haley Robson (03:08)
• “He took away my innocence… those are some of the darkest moments of my life." – Jennalisa Jones (08:40)
• "For him to be able to manage Les Wexner's fortune… and there was no accountability… is just amazing to me." – Courtney Wild (09:10)
• “Pam Bondi… told all of us to our faces, ‘If we go after these people in the files, our government will fall.’” – Jennalisa Jones (24:02)
• “Not only will the government fall, a lot of governments would fall… I’m okay with letting everybody fall.” – Haley Robson (24:27)
• “Trauma is messy, right? …you just want to get through the next day, whatever that looks like.” – Haley Robson (15:29)
• “Ghislaine Maxwell sits in a prison camp doing yoga… She has an emotional support dog. I don't even have one of those. She has it in jail. Make it make sense.” – Haley Robson (28:36)
• “I think part of the problem with America not being angry enough is that we're so desensitized… there are two sides to everything.” – Haley Robson (45:50)
• “If it looks like a duck and quacks, it's a joke. So we all know better... I think somebody killed him." – Courtney Wild (54:01)
• “To show others what it looks like to go from surviving to thriving.” – Haley Robson (56:44)

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Important Timestamps

• 02:05 – Courtney Wild outlines her introduction to Epstein
• 03:08 – Haley Robson explains predators’ methods and her own vulnerability
• 05:53 – Jennalisa Jones on being lured as a 14-year-old
• 09:10 – On Wexner’s complicity and lack of accountability
• 15:29 – Haley discusses trauma’s lifelong impact
• 17:27-18:03 – Speaking before Congress and being retraumatized
• 19:35 – Haley: Only a fraction of Epstein files have been released
• 21:41–22:31 – The survivors’ views on Pam Bondi
• 24:02–24:27 – The global implications if all Epstein files are made public
• 33:41–35:29 – Epstein’s retaliation and intimidation tactics
• 39:37–41:32 – The Miami Herald’s role in exposing the case
• 43:05–43:23 – The essence of Epstein's crimes: child trafficking and abuse
• 47:15–54:01 – The panel discusses whether Epstein was murdered or took his own life
• 55:47–58:00 – Survivors share their desired legacy

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Survivor Contact & Advocacy

• Website for Survivor Support: survivorsinc.org (32:28, 58:00)
• Each survivor encourages supporting their work, emphasizing that all profits go directly to helping others heal.

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Tone:
The discussion is candid, passionate, and sometimes confrontational—the survivors pull no punches in describing the scope of betrayal by authorities, the ongoing trauma, and the scale of the alleged coverup. Hansen’s approach is direct but empathetic, giving the guests space to speak their truths.

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This episode is essential listening for anyone concerned with justice, government accountability, survivor resilience, and the ongoing fight to uncover the full truth about the Epstein case.

Transcript

[Haley Robson]

Foreign.

[Chris Hansen]

Every day, it seems a new allegation surfaces involving the Epstein investigation. The list who knew what, who was involved, who got paid off, who covered up. Well, recently I sat down with three Epstein survivors, among the first to be victimized by Epstein in Palm Beach, Florida. Take a look. Jeffrey Epstein, among the most evil humans to walk the planet. Guilty as homemade sin. The co conspirators, many of whom still have not been brought to justice. Every week there are new revelations. Who was involved, who knew what, who's covering up for whom. Well, today it is our pleasure to have three Epstein survivors. Three survivors who were at ground zero, who were abused as children, groomed, taken advantage of, and today have miraculously come out on the other side. Please give a warm welcome to Courtney Wild, Haley Robson and Jennalisa Jones. We have so much to talk about. Courtney, tell these folks how you first met Jeffrey Epstein. How did you get lured into this sorted world?

[Courtney Wild]

I was introduced to Jeffrey at the age of 14. Me and a good friend of mine went to a party. It was a high school party, somebody's birthday party. And we were asked if we wanted to make some extra cash and if we'd be willing to go to Palm beach to meet this really rich guy. And he just wanted a massage from us.

[Chris Hansen]

And what were your circumstances at the time? Was there something that made you vulnerable?

[Courtney Wild]

Yes, I was very vulnerable at that time. I had a lot of family struggles and I was kind of staying at my best friend's house and yeah, So I was vulnerable. 14 year old.

[Chris Hansen]

It seems that the people around Epstein knew who to choose, knew who would be an easy mark, knew who was immature, vulnerable. How did they target you?

[Haley Robson]

You're absolutely correct. Predators like Jeffrey Epstein know exactly who they can abuse and who they can get away with. Abus for me, it was very simple. I had been raped. That was my first sexual experience at 15. He was 22. I was thrown into therapy. And while I was in therapy, I simultaneously was being abused by Jeffrey.

[Chris Hansen]

So you're in therapy because of being sexually assaulted and then you meet Jeffrey Epstein.

[Haley Robson]

I was introduced and recruited by a friend and brought to his house where I was abused.

[Chris Hansen]

Did he know that?

[Haley Robson]

He knew about my prior sexual assault.

[Chris Hansen]

Did he use it against you?

[Haley Robson]

You know, I. I thought that you were supposed to tell an adult. So we had conversations about it and we had conversations about my health, and I was under the impression that he was going to help me. And in fact, when the investigation popped off in Palm Beach County, I was told that I was being sexually abused. And it took me a very long time to process and accept that.

[Chris Hansen]

Did he attack your vulnerability to normalize what he was doing to you?

[Haley Robson]

Absolutely, absolutely he did. He normalized the nudity, he normalized the sexual acts. You know, when you're 16 years old and you already come off one bad experience, you don't know anything different, you think that is normal. So for me, everything sexually that I encountered from him was very normal.

[Chris Hansen]

Jenna, Lisa, you didn't go looking for Epstein. His people came looking for you.

[Jennalisa Jones]

Yeah. So very similar to Courtney. I was introduced by my best friend at the time to one of her new friends that she had just made. And we went over there and we're hanging out and it was just normal girls hanging out. And it went from that to them very much so. Making jokes about a guy named Jeff that liked to get massages and he was just a creepy old guy and all of that. So it like was like the trust of my own friends. By his hand though, like, I know that now.

[Chris Hansen]

Right.

[Jennalisa Jones]

But at 14, you don't look at

[Chris Hansen]

it like, I mean, 14, you can't even process this. Right. So what did you think you were getting invited to as a 14 year old girl?

[Jennalisa Jones]

I truly thought that I was just going to give a creepy old guy a back massage for $200.

[Chris Hansen]

$200? Which at that time in your life was a significant amount of money.

[Jennalisa Jones]

It was an extremely significant amount of money. I was raised by a single mother who was addicted to drugs. I was the parent in the situation, not her. And so $200 was food in my house and it could be a new pair of shoes. It could, you know, there was times where I didn't have food in my house or didn't have a place to stay. So being offered $200 by your friend when $20 seemed like the world, I, I trusted it.

[Chris Hansen]

14 years old. Tell me about the first encounter with Jeffrey Epstein.

[Jennalisa Jones]

So it was me and my friend and the girl that brought us. And the girl took interest in me and made me feel special in a time that I really felt like I needed it. She helped get me ready for Jeffrey. And all of that explained what was going to happen, which was supposed to be just a massage. And then once you get to the house, you weren't told ahead of time that you're going to be in that room by yourself. You're not told ahead of time exactly what these things are going to happen in this room. It's very downplayed. So you go in with the intention. All right, I'm just going to go give a massage and get out of there. And then the whole dynamic just changes. Once you're in that room by yourself and he knows, he, he walks in as one person, and then once the abuse starts happening, it's like his whole facial, like it was exciting. It was the fear that he knew he was getting out of you. You could, you could feel it. You could feel it in that, in that room.

[Chris Hansen]

Were you able to walk out of that room?

[Jennalisa Jones]

I would have probably never walked out of that room. Hindsight is always one thing. And at 14, I was not only worried about Jeffrey, but I was worried about upsetting my friends. Will they talk to me? Will they hang out with me after this? And I didn't know what was happening to them, and they seemed so normal with it that I had no clue that they were also being abused. So for a long time, I just thought I was the only one being abused.

[Chris Hansen]

For you're the only one that Jeffrey was going this far had done that too.

[Jennalisa Jones]

I didn't think that he was doing that to everyone.

[Chris Hansen]

What did he do to you on that first encounter?

[Jennalisa Jones]

He took away my innocence. I mean, I, I, I know it's important for people to understand what he did to me, but those are some of the darkest moments of my life. And he took something from me that I will never, ever be able to get back.

[Chris Hansen]

Courtney. What kind of a man abuses his wealth and power to exploit a teenage girl?

[Jennalisa Jones]

Jeffrey.

[Courtney Wild]

Jeffrey Epstein. It's disgusting. It's disgusting. A man doesn't do that. And Jeffrey wasn't a man. He was an opportunist. And his criminal mind and his criminal way worked in his favor for a very long time. For him to be able to manage Les Wexner's fortune and mismanage a billion dollars and there was no accountability on Les Wexner is just amazing to me.

[Chris Hansen]

Well, I want to ask you about Lex. Les Wexner, who is a multi, multi billionaire. He has the company that holds Victoria's Secret. Do you think he's been held accountable in all this? He has claimed that he didn't know what Epstein was up to. He claims he didn't see anything. He's testified. But it's hard to believe that, don't you think?

[Courtney Wild]

Very hard to believe. And we all know that it's not true that he was complicit. He was aware he didn't lose a billion dollars and, and ignored it just because he didn't want everybody to know he got conned. So that's that's what he's been saying. Which is just what do you think

[Chris Hansen]

that Jeffrey Epstein had on Les Wexner?

[Courtney Wild]

I think it was very much blackmail from the cameras he had in all of his properties. You know, back in 2005 when he was first rated and arrested, you know, he was tipped off and it was my attorneys gave me this information. So the first time he was busted, he had time to take the computers out, to take anything out of the house that really would just prove that he was guilty. So he got tipped off and he was able to beat the system.

[Chris Hansen]

How long did your abuse last?

[Courtney Wild]

I met Jeffrey when I was 14 and he sexually abused me and groomed me until I was 17.

[Chris Hansen]

So for three years?

[Courtney Wild]

Yes, three years.

[Chris Hansen]

And how did the abuse finally end? What happened?

[Courtney Wild]

My opinion is that I matured and my body changed and he. I was just not his type anymore. And also at the end of me going to see him, he really always wanted me to bring him girls. So there was a lot of times where I would tell him I would bring like a girl would come and then at the last minute the girl wouldn't, you know, and it would just cause him. He would just be livid at the end. It was like there was a couple times where he was just so angry for me standing him up or not being able to get there that at that point I knew that this was an addiction and that it wasn't a problem. And honestly, I kind of bowed away gracefully. He stopped contact thing me and same for me for him.

[Chris Hansen]

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[Haley Robson]

From 16 to, I believe, 18. I was with him for two years, and then I left. I moved to a different county. I moved to Orlando. And the day I left, he called my house, and my dad picked up the phone. That was something that I learned through the files and through the investigation.

[Chris Hansen]

And what was in that conversation? What was said?

[Haley Robson]

I mean, I wish I knew. Maybe I don't. I will never know. My dad passed away last year from glioblastoma. But my mother tells me that when Jeffrey called the house, my dad became enraged and told him, don't ever, you know, don't ever call the house again, and hung up on him. And then I literally moved to a different county in hopes that I could just not be seen and heard and maybe he won't notice.

[Chris Hansen]

What was the lasting impact that Epstein's exploitation and abuse had on your life? What was. What happened to you for the next 10 years?

[Haley Robson]

The next 10 years? When I left, Jeffrey and I moved to Orlando, My boyfriend was murdered. My house was broken into. I. Just did a lot of drugs. I did a lot of alcohol. I became an exotic dancer for four years. I mean, trauma is messy, right? Like, there's no right way to cope when you're in the trauma. All you know is survival, and you just want to get through the next day, whatever that looks like. It's. When we talk about impact, it's such a small word for such incredible, sadistic side effects that you go through for the rest of your life. So there's no end to the impact, the night terrors. I was put on Celexa, Limectol, Lexapro, and an antipsychotic because my night terrors were so terrible. I was sleepwalking, wasn't making sense. The impact doesn't go away. I mean, if you look at what's happening now, we're still being followed by that impact. You know, re. Traumatized, reliving our experiences, having to retell our experiences over and over and over again. And then there's the physical impact that a lot of people don't talk about their sexual impact. I mean, if you think of it, your body is a mechanical system, right? Impact affects every system of your body.

[Chris Hansen]

You testified in Congress, the three of you Generalisa, what was it like for you to tell your story in front of Congress in the nation's capital?

[Jennalisa Jones]

It was extremely difficult for the fact that it took us having to do something like that for them to listen to us.

[Chris Hansen]

And I mean, this is extraordinary. This should have been taken care of in 2005. The police should have done something. The Fed should have done something. His sheriff's office should have done something.

[Courtney Wild]

Thank you.

[Chris Hansen]

And 20 years after the fact, six years after he committed suicide after being arrested, you're still having to go to Congress to demand justice.

[Jennalisa Jones]

Yes. And the hardest part of that, and I've always said it from the beginning, is that it's really sad. People sit here and look at us now in our 30s and are like, oh, they're grown adults. But when you're doing stuff like that and you're dealing with all of this, it's 14 year old me that's doing that, not 30 year old me. And so standing up there and having to put my face out there because nobody will listen and nobody is wanting justice in any of this. And I had fought so hard just to have my day in court with Jeffrey and our government couldn't even keep him alive in jail. So for me, that just set fire on me even more. To go out there into the Capitol and to continue to keep talking to these Congress members and government officials and trying to push in hopes that, that they will do the right thing. But we all see it and it's very hard to have hope and faith in our government when continuously, time after time, they continue to slap us in the face and kick us back down.

[Chris Hansen]

The Epstein files. Haley, do you think everything significant in the Epstein files has in fact been released up to this point?

[Haley Robson]

Absolutely not. We have 2.5 million files we're still sitting on, which I'm actively working on getting my files because this government is so incompetent that they don't want to give me my own 302, which is an FBI statement that I made in 2019. So I am going to keep my foot on their neck and demand for my own personal file. I have a right to know what happened to me. I have a right to know.

[Chris Hansen]

What does the FBI tell you when you demand a CR3? 302 is an FBI term for a report, basically, that an agent takes from a victim of a crime. What does the FBI send to you about getting your files?

[Haley Robson]

You know, I brought it up twice at the Capitol to the Democrat Female Caucus. And I asked them why some of us years have filed the appropriate paperwork with our attorneys to get access to our own 302, and they told us, you'll get it when the files come out and they're released. That's when you'll see your own 302. I don't trust this government. That's not good enough, and that doesn't work for me.

[Chris Hansen]

Courtney the former Attorney general, Pam Bondi, was in front of Congress this week. Now, she has been on the record as saying things from, we're going to release. We released them all. There's nothing left. More get released. I mean, the story is shifting, and she was called in to explain this once again. And we still don't know why the release took place as it did, and we still don't know what is in those 2.5 million documents that we don't have. What do you think of Pam Badu?

[Jennalisa Jones]

I.

[Haley Robson]

We hate her.

[Jennalisa Jones]

I. Yes,

[Courtney Wild]

Hate's a strong word, but I mean it. I. I hate her as well. She had the opportunity to stand with me and my survivor sisters, and she just turned her back on us. And it's so unfortunate that this case since 2005, we have had so many failures when it comes to the government, and Pam Bondi is just like the ultimate failure here. So when you think things can't get worse, they can. We'll leave that up to Pam Bondi.

[Chris Hansen]

Well, she's gone now. There's a new attorney general. Right. And the reason for her being gone probably isn't because she didn't release all the files. It's probably because she didn't tie this up into a neat little package and make it go away, as some in power would like to see.

[Courtney Wild]

GREEN Agreed.

[Chris Hansen]

Do you think we'll ever get to the bottom of this and get all the files? I mean, are you going to keep pushing and pushing and pushing? Look at, look at what you've done. I mean, I see these pictures and it sends chills up my spine seeing you guys in Washington taking power of this situation and making forceful statements that created change. I mean, without this and without you embarrassing the heck out of these people, we're not where we are today, and we're still a long way from the truth, granted. Why is there such a hesitation to not just say, here they all are, right? We have so many of them. And I understand as a reporter that it's very rare for the FBI to give out files when there's not probable cause for an arrest. I this is a very unique and rare situation. So I sort of see a little Bit of the other side. But once you start releasing, why not release them all?

[Haley Robson]

Is that a rhetorical question or do you want to.

[Chris Hansen]

No, I want you to answer it. I want everybody to answer it.

[Jennalisa Jones]

I love. I. I think Pam, Bonnie said it best for us. She. She bluntly told all of us to our faces. She said, if we go after these people in the files, our government will fall.

[Haley Robson]

But it's not just our government, though. It's international governments. So. And I. I said this on one of the podcasts. I did. Not only. And I. And I said this on your podcast.

[Chris Hansen]

Yes.

[Haley Robson]

Not only will the government fall, a lot of governments would fall, wouldn't they? Saudi Arabia, Israel. I could keep going. All the governments would fall. And I'm okay with letting everybody fall. But here's here. Here's the. The other half of that and what I'm learning in therapy. If the government falls, there's no law and order. So does it really fix the problem? Because right now, the only thing that can correct any of this is the person that has all the power, who's in the White House. He could have. He could have released all the files. He didn't. Didn't have to go to the Senate. There was no reason to wait. There was no reason to wait. All of this could have been done. But what they're doing, and I'm going to say this with my whole chest out to use children to settle government foreign affairs, using blackmail, is where we're at in society. That is what is happening. That is what is happening. I don't know why everybody beats around the bush about saying that. I'll say it with my whole chest. That's exactly what's happening.

[Chris Hansen]

As I mentioned, the three of you were pretty much at ground zero in this far flung human trafficking conspiracy. Jenna, Lisa, what has shocked you most in terms of what you've learned since then, that happened after you initially escaped Epstein's clutches?

[Jennalisa Jones]

I think what amazes me the most is the people that you're told and taught to trust, our law enforcement, our government officials, go out there, do your due diligence, vote. You know, you're putting these people in power. Those are the same people, time over time after time, that have let us down. So it's. It's hard to have trust or faith that anyone's going to do anything about this. And it's not fair to us to have to put that, all that burden on us for it. And they continue to do that. And I'm just so grateful that we're strong Enough and have each other's backs enough to be able to stand up to these bullies, because that's exactly what they are. And they know what they're doing to us. But not everyone's that lucky to have the survivor sisterhood that we have and the understanding and all of that. So this. This whole thing, it makes me really sad in the same sense as, like, I feel like I'm gonna die and never have what I've worked so hard for. And that was just to do the right thing and protect children.

[Chris Hansen]

And he ends up signing a sweetheart plea deal which grants immunity from further prosecution, which they prosecuted in any way, obviously. But there are a lot of murky characters still out there. You know, his assistant pilot, you know, other people who are assistants. They in. In France. They've just identified 40 new victims, 20 of whom were not known to authorities in the past. They're looking to dig up his ranch, the Zorro ranch in New Mexico, because they think there might have been medical experiments there. I've talked to survivors who say they have awakened on a surgical table at that ranch not knowing what just happened to them. And we don't even know what's going on and what took place and what we're going to find in New Mexico. And Ghislaine Maxwell sits in a prison camp doing yoga. Doing yoga. Getting visited by government officials. I'm sorry.

[Haley Robson]

She's an emotional support dog. I don't even have one of those. She has it in jail. Make it make sense.

[Chris Hansen]

Do you fear that they're going to pardon Gle Maxwell?

[Jennalisa Jones]

Yeah, for sure.

[Courtney Wild]

Yes.

[Haley Robson]

Absolutely. Already happening.

[Chris Hansen]

What makes you say that?

[Haley Robson]

What makes me say that?

[Chris Hansen]

Yeah.

[Haley Robson]

Well, Todd Blanch went to talk to her, allegedly. And there was no pathologist, there was no forensic psychologist. He went by himself. God only knows what was talked about. She's a known perjurer. So we already know that she lied to him. Whatever she said, I don't believe that he went there for an interview. I believe he went there to make a deal. A deal was made, and she was granted a summer camp with sushi, yoga, and an emotional support dog. And if anybody wants to challenge that, then I say, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Put her back in prison, then if I'm wrong.

[Chris Hansen]

Courtney, did you ever come in contact with Glenn Maxwell?

[Courtney Wild]

No.

[Chris Hansen]

Nobody here did. Right. She kind of came in after that.

[Courtney Wild]

Before. Before.

[Chris Hansen]

Before it. Yeah.

[Courtney Wild]

So my. I dealt with his assistant, Sarah Kellen.

[Chris Hansen]

Well, that. I want to talk about that, too. I'm glad you brought that Up. Who is Sarah Kellen for our audience?

[Courtney Wild]

Sarah Kellen was Jeffrey Epstein's assistant. That is primarily who I dealt with when it came to scheduling. Going to Jeffrey's house, her calling me, asking me if I had girls. She really ran. She really ran a lot of the operations there, I think.

[Chris Hansen]

In Palm Beach.

[Courtney Wild]

In Palm Beach. I know that also in New York as well, it's a kind of a gray area and a touchy area because now, you know, all this time she's shared that she. She's a victim as well, and that she's experienced a lot of the same things we have just, you know, behind closed doors earlier on. So it's hard for me because as a survivor, you want to acknowledge other survivors and you want to be understanding and empathetic. And I'm not saying that she's not a survivor, but I think there needs to be accountability for your actions. And it's kind of hard, though. You know, you want to be optimistic and you want to, I don't know, look in the. Look at the best in everybody. But Sarah Kellen was very complicit. She was one of the co conspirators that was granted the immunity. So she won't get in trouble. And that's just been a journey all on my own, learning to forgive her. So I, you know, don't hold that hate in my heart anymore because it was just bringing me down. All the hate and all this Epstein stuff, it was just. It took me to a place that I. I like to share because I did have a lot of issues with addiction, and I found myself in prison for three years. And I'm very thankful and grateful for that time because I was able to turn my life around and heal my mind and brain from all the drugs and really get to know myself and heal. And we are, as everybody knows, we're founding members of the Survivors, Inc. If you'd like to pour in our. Pour into our foundation, all profits go to survivors of sexual assault.

[Chris Hansen]

That's survivorsinc.org.

[Courtney Wild]

No, thank you. That's our baby. Like Jenna, Lisa, and Haley have said, we are really focused and pouring into the next generations and just being transparent and sharing our stories where we're able to help our future generations, where this never has to happen again.

[Chris Hansen]

You know, I'm curious about something, and I know our audience is, too. In the period before Epstein was arrested in 2019 and his in. In you guys filing with lawyers, civilization, judgments, obviously Epstein's camp knew that you and your lawyers were pursuing civil damages as you should, right? Did they take retaliation against you? Were you followed? Did you experience issues, security issues, because of Epstein's goons coming after you?

[Jennalisa Jones]

So.

[Haley Robson]

Yes.

[Chris Hansen]

What happened?

[Haley Robson]

Well, it came out that he was hiring private investigators to run us off the road, to break into our.

[Chris Hansen]

Run you off the road?

[Haley Robson]

Correct. To break into our houses, to instill fear in us, hoping that it would push us into silence, which for me, it did, because I was silent for 17 years after my boyfriend was murdered. Actually, one of the private investigators that worked for the good guys, Mike Fiston, he worked with my dad on the police department in Miami, and he actually had to go in and remove some of these girls that were abused by Jeffrey and put them in safe houses. So when you see us at the Capitol and you see us here today, there is no guarantee that we'll wake up tomorrow. And I don't just mean that with the retaliation. I mean, a lot of us are still getting threats. Some of us are still in fear for our life every time we speak out. It's a risk that we knowingly take, but we take that risk because we see the importance of change, the necessity of change for women and children coming up, or women and children that are currently in similar situations. So, of course, we would love to blow the lid off of everything and name names, but that's just. We have families that we have to think about. We have children that we have to think about for ourselves. And it can be scary. It can be very intimidating, but that's what they want to intimidate us with. Smear campaigns and threats, Lies? Oh, yeah, all of it.

[Chris Hansen]

Gentleesa. Did they come after you, Epstein's camp, when you filed the civil lawsuit?

[Jennalisa Jones]

I wouldn't say that they necessarily came after me, but it was. Maybe it was them, maybe it wasn't. I don't know. But the. The death threats that you receive or being.

[Chris Hansen]

Who else would do it, though? I mean, common sense would suggest that maybe it was somebody affiliated with him. I mean, he was going after reporters at the Miami Herald at the time. Yeah, they were getting run off the road.

[Jennalisa Jones]

He went after our. He went after our attorney. He went after our lawyer. I mean, he was doing everything in his power to stop all of us. And I. I just want to take a moment for our attorneys, Brad and Britney, and just. It's something that someone said to me, and it was said, you won't find many lawyers that will fight for you for over 20 years, almost lose their career because of a powerful people trying to take him down. You will never See another attorney that did it for free that has cared and put so much dedication and thought. And they are family. And if anyone's dealt with lawyers, you know that's not typically the case. And so I just really, really have to toot their horn a little bit because without them,

[Chris Hansen]

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[Jennalisa Jones]

It's funny that You. No, not funny. But Julie, at that time, I remember talking to Brad about working with her and speaking out and going to put my face out there publicly, which I had never done before, and just so worried and. But also just so hopeful that someone was really going to listen to us. I remember Brad saying, he's like, I don't know where this will go, but it could.

[Chris Hansen]

Yeah. And it.

[Jennalisa Jones]

And it did. It did. He did get arrested and there was light at the end of the tunnel and there was this like fire of like, man, this didn't all come at just a. A cost to us, like we were going to have something. And then, you know, they.

[Chris Hansen]

Because I remember in 2015, I was having meetings with some friends of mine, former federal agents who were private investigators at the time, working with some of the lawyers in this case. And we had meetings who. And I tried in my mind to figure out how do I do this, like to catch a predator or take down with Chris Hansen, how do we infiltrate this? How can we get into the mansion on the Upper east side of Manhattan? And it became so difficult because it was so insulated that we got involved in other things. We came back to Epstein, but it really was the day to day, brick by brick, local news reporting that broke this thing loose. And so I think we have to all give credit to Miami Herald and that team for doing it. You know, it's really important. The Epstein mansion in Palm beach was famous for surveillance cameras, recordings. You've had a chance to go through some of the Epstein files. Did you find yourselves in any of those recordings? Do you know if you were captured on any of the surveillance videos and what that shows and why that's important?

[Courtney Wild]

Perhaps I try to stay out of the whole. The news and the files, but I was curious because a lot of my survivor sisters said that their names weren't redacted. So I did go poke around a little bit. And my name also wasn't redacted. But no, I didn't. Once I seen pictures of other survivors and videos, I didn't even go down that rabbit hole because I feel like I just better off not knowing beyond it.

[Haley Robson]

Yeah, I think it's a little different for me. I wasn't protected from day one. I was never redacted. Never protected. So when I stood at the Capitol, I think it was Pamela Brown on cnn. It was either her or Aaron Burnett. And I told them, I don't care if I'm redacted or unredacted. That doesn't like that is so irrelevant. At this point, burn it down. Burn it all down. Release the files, let them see it. I've gone through plenty of threats and plenty of smear campaigns. I'll go in the fire, I'll walk through it again and I'll come out the other end just like I have many times before. But this government needs to start being transparent. They're not, they're not being honest with the American people.

[Chris Hansen]

I don't know how you could come to any other conclusion. Delusion.

[Haley Robson]

It's common sense. I mean, for me it is.

[Chris Hansen]

Release it.

[Haley Robson]

I have, I don't think, put aside all the titles, right? Strip it down to what it really comes down to, which is child abuse and exploitation, human trafficking. Human trafficking to its core.

[Chris Hansen]

Human.

[Haley Robson]

If you really want to know what human trafficking is to its core, there are certain elements in those files and which is so unbelievably important for the world to see, which is coercive control and grooming. And I don't know if anybody has gone through that. But I can say firsthand that it's very difficult to prove in court because it's not tangible. You know, the impact isn't tangible enough. So if we release those 2.5 million files and I know there's emails that exist, I think that it'll illustrate a very, very different narrative of what that looks like. And when you strip it down to the core, there's so much education and so many important factors that we can learn from all of that. We're missing so many opportunities because we're covering for people. Why? And putting the blame on the victims. Why? Like I think we're beyond the point of pointing fingers at this point. There's truth to be told here and those files hold a lot of truth and a lot of weight for a lot of people.

[Chris Hansen]

You know, you can go on to a website to look at his emails, right? There's, there's a program where you can do this and you can read the emails as if you were Jeffrey Epstein going through the emails. And it's shocking because you start to see a pattern. You see a man who has intellect, but who's sick and broken and twisted and with all the money in the world, who does he target? Children. And just recently an email was released about him going to a medical specialist at a place to talk about treating autistic children. He had an 11 year old autistic girl that he wanted to see if she could get experimental treatment. Now I'm going to guess and go on, on a limb here that this wasn't for the good of the child. It was one of his twisted experiments potentially to see what would happen and then maybe end up exploiting that child. I mean this gets darker, deeper and more twisted with every layer you expose.

[Haley Robson]

And that's why you need to release the 2.5 million files they're sitting on if you want to see how far the rabbit hole goes and how dark it gets. And I, I, I often think about this because I, I know there's a lot of people out there that are delving into the files. I think part of the problem with America not being angry enough is that we're so desensitized because of the salacious material, the things that we see on a daily basis through social media and TV news, things like that. So there is two sides to everything.

[Chris Hansen]

Three sides. Their side, your side and the truth.

[Haley Robson]

Totally. But to the files there's another side of that. And when you experience those files and, and Chris, you've been doing this for a long time and I would probably suggest that you're probably slightly desensitized. It takes a lot to shock you. So when you delve into those files you have to be careful of what you're reading and what you're seeing because you may walk around thinking that it didn't affect you and then one day something happens and it's just, you're completely downward spiraling, triggling, triggered thinking about what's in those files. There's nothing good that's going to come out of that. No, no.

[Chris Hansen]

Do you think generally said Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide?

[Jennalisa Jones]

Absolutely not. He either was murdered or he's still walking the earth. Which wouldn't be surprised. I wouldn't. It was all too convenient. It was all too well played. I mean he's in jail with El Chapo at the time, right? He's being monitored, he's under this whole thing, cameras stop working. People don't know like who in prison gets as many blankets as they want. A sleep frickin afternoon machine. Which he could have killed himself with that alone, right?

[Haley Robson]

With a cord, you know.

[Jennalisa Jones]

But we're tying up bed sheets come do better, do better. Like I could have made it up. My kid could have made that story better.

[Chris Hansen]

I remember when, when it happened, we were on vacation the summer of 2019 and came across that he was arrested. Then later you know that a few months later that he had killed himself. And initially it's like all right, I get this as a rich guy, he knows he's not getting out this time. He's played his best hand, and now he's going to wrap it up because he doesn't want to sit in court and go through it and then go to prison. I understand. I understand. It's also, at the time, it was a very slipshod federal lockup. They had a lot of problems, People working triple shifts, all kinds of stuff. But the more you look into this, you know this corrections officer who had a mysterious $5,000 checking deposit. Checking account deposit, right in that same time frame. She's been hauled in front of Congress. She's been. She was criminally charged, and then they cut a plea deal there with she and her. Her partner that day. I mean, it just, we. It's frustrating to you as survivors, to me as a journalist, that they're just not going to give up the ghost here and say, okay, it's a question mark. But I can't in good conscience tell people or my listeners or viewers that I think it's a suicide. I can't.

[Jennalisa Jones]

Well, Chris, the FBI literally had a meeting for us down in Miami, which I attended.

[Haley Robson]

Not a lot of us did, but

[Jennalisa Jones]

I decided I would attend because I wanted to see what the smoke was going to be this time. Right after he died. And it was.

[Chris Hansen]

This is after he died. After he died, the FBI had a meeting for survivors. What happened?

[Jennalisa Jones]

Yeah, waste of time. 1.

[Chris Hansen]

But what did they say?

[Jennalisa Jones]

They. We get there, they bring us in this room, and they're supposed to be giving us answers, right? Some type of understanding on how this happened. And instead they told us, well, he didn't kill himself. Well, we can't tell you, but he didn't kill himself. But someone didn't kill him.

[Haley Robson]

And I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

[Jennalisa Jones]

That's what the FBI gets, killed.

[Chris Hansen]

An FBI agent told Miami Meeting for Survivors that he didn't kill himself. But we can't tell you that he was murdered, right? Do I have that right? So what happened? Did God send a bolt of lightning to kill him?

[Jennalisa Jones]

And they literally brought us down there.

[Chris Hansen]

Did you ask to say that by that?

[Jennalisa Jones]

Well, I asked. I was like, so this is all we get? And, well, we're still investigating.

[Chris Hansen]

So it's not a suicide, it's not

[Jennalisa Jones]

a murder, and we're still investigating, but we're going to have a meeting about it just in case you guys want to know what you already know. I mean, it doesn't.

[Chris Hansen]

Did they tell you anything else at this meeting?

[Jennalisa Jones]

No, Pretty much that they couldn't tell us anything. And I, I remember looking at Brad and Brittany, after we were done, and I was like, what was that? We had no answers. Why'd you waste my time to tell me nothing? I already knew more than you guys were. Understand?

[Chris Hansen]

They called you and said, look, he's dead. Case closed. And this is what we know, and we'll keep you posted. But that wasn't even how they phrased it, was it? That was you guys at the meeting as well, or was it just generally

[Haley Robson]

said I didn't go. I don't go to things that have the FBI involved because I already know what to expect. And it's not going to be anything educational. But I will say I go to my therapist a lot, and she has a lot of answers for me. That woman's great. But we taught. We talked about his. His personality. And in all seriousness, his personality does not align with somebody that would commit suicide. If you want to talk about it from a pathological or like a forensic psychologist point of view, I've been very, very concerned, and I've mentioned it to Congress. Why wasn't there somebody with Ghislaine or someone there with Jeffrey? Why did you guys do these interviews alone? I mean, the education alone. I mean, we have FBI profilers for a reason, right? Why are we negating all of this? What the hell's going on? But I will say, like, I don't buy the whole suicide thing just because of Jeffrey, just because of his personality, his disorder, like, it doesn't align with who he was and how. I mean, I don't know whether he's a sociopath, a psychopath. I mean, it's so beyond my comprehension. But the one thing I will say is I don't believe he ever thought that he was going to ever be accountable. I think that he had gotten away

[Chris Hansen]

with it so many times before, bought his way out of it.

[Haley Robson]

Influence deals were made since the very first day.

[Chris Hansen]

And now he's in, and he's probably thinking, I'm not getting out.

[Haley Robson]

Exactly. So I think just with him being who he is, it doesn't really align for me personally with his personality.

[Chris Hansen]

Courtney, what do you think?

[Courtney Wild]

I don't know. What was the question again? I just.

[Chris Hansen]

Do you think he committed suicide? Jeffrey Epson?

[Courtney Wild]

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I do think he committed suicide.

[Jennalisa Jones]

There is.

[Courtney Wild]

What always is intriguing for me is that, you know, he had that little bit of time at the stockade in Palm Beach. We all know that he was barely there right the time. But I think it was like Sunday was actually the mandatory day that he did stay there for 12 hours or 10 hours, whatever it was, I find it interesting, you know, when he did that time, it made him more criminal. And you know, after talking with my attorneys and a lot of the other people he went from, he went, he started international, you know, getting girls for him right at his doorstep, you know, he just had so much power, I think. So there's a side of me that I try to think kind of like you, okay, this is a billionaire who always got what he wanted. He's been to jail, he knew he wasn't getting out. And maybe you know about the suicide. So I try to make sense of it, but if it looks like a duck and quacks, it's a joke. So we all know better. But yeah, I think he committed suicide.

[Haley Robson]

Absolutely.

[Courtney Wild]

Or I think, I don't think he committed suicide. I think somebody killed him. Yes, right.

[Chris Hansen]

You know,

[Courtney Wild]

what about Trump? I mean, he's in the files a million times. He's probably implicated. I never seen him, No, I never had anything to do with Trump. But he's in the file. Look how many times his name is mentioned in the files. I think that's answer enough.

[Haley Robson]

And just, and just to add to that, this is the frustrating part. If you really want to know what happened, have to have investigations. But the problem we're having is the COVID up now has become a major problem for us because nobody wants to open investigations without those investigations.

[Chris Hansen]

Everybody wants it done.

[Haley Robson]

Everybody wants to call us a Democrat hoax and move on. And I'm like, yeah, no, this isn't going away. Thanks, though. I mean, you campaigned on.

[Chris Hansen]

Oh, we know it's not going to go away. We're not going to let it go away. You're not going to let it go away. And as we wrap up here today, and we could talk about this forever, but I want to go down the line and start with Jennalisa. What do you want your legacy to be in this case?

[Jennalisa Jones]

What I want my legacy to be in this case is that I was strong enough to fight for myself, but I was even stronger to fight for my children, other people's children. And just whatever I can do to try to save another child from going through this, this doesn't just happen with Jeffrey Epstein. This happens in your own houses, by your own family members, by your own friends. And when you say it's not that true, it's not going to happen to me. Think how many times people say I'll never get addicted to drugs and then they do or something happens. So for me, my legacy is just continue to educate and that we save children. I don't know.

[Chris Hansen]

Haley, what do you want your legacy to be in this case?

[Haley Robson]

To show others what it looks like to go from surviving to thriving. What it looks like to have the government take everything from you and to stand in their face and call them out at the highest level. And to not be fearful, but to stand in your truth, to own your story, to hold accountability, to hold space for change, but to do it in a way that you're showing others what it looks like to thrive, even in survival mode.

[Chris Hansen]

Courtney, your legacy, I'm going to have

[Courtney Wild]

to go with Haley. The surviving to thriving. I think that's so powerful. Epstein and his attorneys, they painted us to be prostitutes and trouble drug addicts. And I just like, my mission in life is to just let anybody know who's experienced sexual abuse or drug addiction that there's hope, and you can change it when you're ready, at any, any time, you know? So to like, share my experiences, my testimonies, to help others thrive is just so, so amazing.

[Chris Hansen]

Well, thank you, thank you, thank you for being here today. Thank you for being here today. Survivorsinc.org you can learn more.

[Haley Robson]

Yeah, thank you.

[Chris Hansen]

And that's exactly why I participate so enthusiastically at CrimeCon. It gives us the opportunity to hear voices of survivors like the ones you just heard. Ironically, those three women were given the Crime Fighter of the year award at CrimeCon, and it was an honor to present that award to them to host the Clue Awards there. I'll see you next Wednesday when you have a seat with me again for another compelling interview. Monday is when Predators I've Caught drops right here on the same set of platforms. And Thursdays, a new episode of Takedown with Chris Hansen drops on my streaming network, True Blue. Until then, I'll be watching and listening.

[Courtney Wild]

From Geico Subconscious News. I'm Tammy Racing thoughts broadcasting from your brain. You think you live in a pretty safe place, but you just heard about a break in four miles away, which isn't close, but it isn't far either. You know, Art Palpitations is on the scene.

[Chris Hansen]

I sure am, Tammy.

[Haley Robson]

And I don't even know why I

[Chris Hansen]

drove out here, because, as you know, you got customized renters insurance through Geico, so your stuff is covered.

[Courtney Wild]

Oh, well, that's great. Any sign of crime there, Art?

[Chris Hansen]

Just some light littering, Tammy, but like they say, a little litter can lead to a lot. Wise words.

[Courtney Wild]

It feels good to worry less. It feels good to Geico.