Jesse Brown (3:25)

A different speaker on the anti Zionist side takes the microphone. Ahmad Jarar Hajamad. He's the founder of a group called Liberate Palestine. 48. He's a regular presence at Canadian anti Israel demonstrations.

Mahmoud Khalil (3:39)

We're going to free Palestine from your filthy oppression. Because you guys already know not a single state of yours has exist more than 80 years. And you guys already know that the 80 year curse is coming around you. You guys already know that.

Jesse Brown (3:57)

Less.

Mahmoud Khalil (3:58)

That less. When 80 years come, you guys will regret actually standing on that side. And why the hell was South Africa or Germany. You guys already know that you guys tried to oppress and colonialize South Africa and Germany.

Jesse Brown (4:12)

Because the allegation of a Jewish plot to oppress Germany goes back to early Nazi propaganda in South Africa. Nazi aligned gray shirts later made similar allegations against Jews.

Mahmoud Khalil (4:26)

Yo, Amit's got a vibing up for that long, motherfucker.

Jesse Brown (4:29)

What he just said, translated in part from Hebrew, is the people of Israel live, but not for long, motherfuckers. It may be important to note here that the term Am Yisrael, the people of Israel, that is a term that predates the state of Israel. It has always meant Jews. So what you just heard was Jews live, but not for long.

Mahmoud Khalil (4:55)

You know what that means? You know what that means? You know what that means?

Jesse Brown (5:09)

How did this happen? Sexist taunts, Nazi conspiracy theories and genocidal death threats all lobbed at Canadian Jews at their own synagogue as the police watch on. Why did these protesters come here? Why did they break that long standing norm and target a place of Jewish worship in the first place? The answer is that they were invited to to protest the synagogue. Invited by Jews.

Sarah Boven (5:39)

It is so heartbreaking for us as Jews to see events like this happening tonight in synagogues.

Jesse Brown (5:48)

Shame.

Sarah Boven (5:52)

We do this out of love for Judaism. We are reclaiming our Judaism from Zionism.

Jesse Brown (6:00)

The anti Zionist protester speaking here is wearing a tallis, a Jewish prayer shawl and a kippah on her head. Her name is Sarah Boven and she's from the group Independent Jewish Voices.

Sarah Boven (6:12)

We are also here as Jewish Montrealers to show those who were yelling and dancing on the other side tonight that there are other ways to be Jewish.

Jesse Brown (6:26)

After she leads a chant for Palestine, organizer Mahmoud Khalil praises Sarah Boven.

Mahmoud Khalil (6:31)

This is the true Jewish, you guys. All of you are the fake Jewish, the Jewish of the land. A Jewish of the land is the one who said the truth.

Jesse Brown (6:42)

Sarah Boven and her fellow organizers at Independent Jewish Voices are the ones who announced and promoted this demonstration. They're the ones who invited this protest to the synagogue. They promoted the synagogue protest as a Jewish led event, letting non Jewish protesters know that they could protest a synagogue with Jewish approval. After this norm was broken, there were more demonstrations at other Canadian synagogues. One demonstration in Toronto was organized by David Mivasser, another member of Independent Jewish Voices, who describes himself as an anti Zionist rabbi. Here he is on a local radio show shortly after the Toronto synagogue demonstration.

Interviewer (7:28)

We saw some of the same demonstrations in the same places in our city. Rabbi, let me start with you, Rabbi David. You must be hearing from Jewish people that say, I've never been more afraid to be Jewish. Can I make that case that it's never been less safe to be Jewish in Toronto?

David Mivasser (7:44)

Absolutely not. That's bizarre. It's just bizarre. No Jews have. No Jews are under threat as Jews.

Interviewer (7:55)

They're telling you that they feel unsafe and I think we're targeting.

David Mivasser (7:58)

They can feel whatever they want. It's manufactured, it's created and I'm happy.

Interviewer (8:02)

To talk about that.

David Mivasser (8:02)

I'm saying that mainly a manufactured kind of stoked discomfort. There's no real reason to feel that way at all.

Jesse Brown (8:11)

The presence of Jews at anti Zionist demonstrations and rallies has lent credibility to the idea that this movement is not a racist movement and that the Jewish community itself is divided about Israel. And that's true. There is a divide. But an important piece of context about that divide is often overlooked. The fact is that an overwhelming majority of Jews, 94%, support Israel even if they do not support its current government. On the other side of that divide are just 3% of Canadian Jews who believe that Israel does not have a right to exist as a Jewish state. This tiny minority of a tiny minority, this 3%, they have been front and center in the anti Zionist movement. They're regularly featured in social media posts by anti Zionist groups and they are regularly quoted in media reports about demonstrations and controversies. As a Jew, I want to say that Israel makes me sick. I, as a Jewish, feel immoral duty.

Dave Meslin (9:13)

It was that experience that made me rethink what it means to try to live ethically as a Jew. I think I should tell you that.

Jesse Brown (9:20)

As a Jew, I will never ever, ever forgive Israel. And that has led to a lot of anger from the other 94%. Some of that anger is directed towards the media and the anti Zionist movement who are accused of using these outlier voices as tokens as a way to misrepresent what the wider Jewish community very clearly believes. But some of the anger from Jews is directed towards anti Zionist Jews themselves who have been attacked as collaborators, as traitors, as self hating Jews. And perhaps that's why it's been so hard for me to get people from this anti Zionist Jewish minority to sit down and just talk with me. Sarah Boven and the leaders of Independent Jewish Voices stopped answering my questions. And David Mivasserre did not respond to my invitations, but David Meslin did. I asked him if he'd come sit down with me for a conversation, not an argument, not a debate. I wasn't going to try to change his mind, but I did want to know what he was thinking and how he got there. This was not so easy for me. The challenge was to not let the way that I feel about his opinions get in the way of my goal of trying to understand them. The rest of today's episode is dedicated to our conversation. And you can judge for yourself how well I accomplished that. I tried my best.

Dave Meslin (10:50)

I'm Dave Meslin. I'm Jewish. I'm a proud Jew. I feel very strongly. I have good feelings towards our people, towards our history. I have a very complicated relationship to what's happening in the Jewish community right now in Canada, in Toronto, and also with what's happening in Gaza and Israel. It's very difficult and it's very confusing. And my views change day to day, sometimes hour to hour, and sometimes I hold multiple views at the same time. I'm trying to speak out loudly. I think that's a Jewish thing. It feels right to me in this moment as a Jew, to speak loudly about my views and what feels kosher to me and what my Jewish upbringing and my Jewish education calls me to do. As a youth, I was immersed deeply in both Jewish and Zionist institutions. So, like Hebrew day school and overnight Jewish summer camp trips to Israel. Right. I didn't feel that comfortable in the Jewish world as a kid, but in the last three years, I've been engaging with, joining and supporting a whole bunch of groups, progressive Jewish institutions in Toronto. I found myself naturally aligning with the only groups in Toronto who were saying what I thought needed to be said about the genocide in Gaza. So the groups I'm mostly aligned with now is Independent Jewish Voices, Jewish Voice for Peace in the us if not now, Jews Against Genocide, those would be the top ones. Jewish Faculty Network, all those groups and the Palestinian youth movement, they are having a big rally tomorrow in Toronto. I'm going. I'm going to be wearing a kippah, be surrounded by thousands of Arabs, Muslims and Palestinians. And the poster I put on my Facebook group has the logo of the Palestinian Youth Movement. And I feel comfortable sharing that those groups, whereas they are saying What I think needs to be said about Gaza, I think sometimes the language goes a little too far for me. For Rosh Hashanah, I went to a service which I haven't done in decades. It was being organized by an anti Zionist Jewish congregation. The tone was really uplifting. But at one point, one of the leaders referred to Israel as the bloodthirsty Zionist entity. And I've heard language like that before. If we're trying to open people's minds, if we're trying to build bridges, if we're trying to create a space where people with different opinions can come together and learn from each other, I think we should, like tone down some of the language. But I also, honestly, I have deep respect for people who are like, no, fuck it, I'm going all in. People are dying by the tens of thousands. Women, children, babies. Like, this is not the time to walk on eggshells. This is not the time to build bridges. And I'm actually working on a piece right now about how I became a Jewish anti Zionist. And that is my working title. I've been unlearning my education. Everything I was taught about Israel as a child, I feel was either selective omission, exaggeration, distortion, or in many cases just a complete flat out lie. So at this point, does Israel have a right to exist? I don't know.

Jesse Brown (14:28)

What I'm working on is a documentary with a focus.

Dave Meslin (14:31)

Yeah. Antisemitism in Canada.

Jesse Brown (14:33)

The focus is on the rise of antisemitism in Canada since October 7th.

Dave Meslin (14:37)

I think that's cool.

Jesse Brown (14:38)

What is your understanding of the issue? Broadly, what's been going on with Jews to Jews among Jews in Canada since October 7th and why? How would you describe the situation?

Dave Meslin (14:49)

Sure, yeah. And I want to start by saying I think it's great that you're having this discussion. Let me break that down into two parts. I have experienced a lot of hatred since October 7th, levels I've never experienced before in my life. Written definitely on Facebook. Just like vile accusations and to my face, aggressive verbal abuse that I've never ever experienced before October 7th in my life. All of it has come from Jews 100%. So I am currently dealing with a lot of hatred that is coming from my own community. Maybe it is a form of anti Semitism. A lot of communities suffer from infighting. Right. As a Jew, I'm experiencing hatred.

Jesse Brown (15:39)

Can a Jew be anti Semitic?

Dave Meslin (15:41)

Probably, Yeah, I would think so. Yeah, absolutely.

Jesse Brown (15:44)

I would agree with.

Dave Meslin (15:45)

Yeah, for sure. I definitely have no hatred towards Jews. I love Jews. I love hanging out with Jews. I love Jewish rituals. I love my family.

Jesse Brown (15:54)

What I asked you was if you could describe what's been happening to Jews in Canada.

Dave Meslin (15:59)

Yeah, for sure.

Jesse Brown (15:59)

What is your perception of what's been happening to Jews in Canada writ large?

Dave Meslin (16:04)

Yeah. Wow. Okay. So the reason I wanted to start with me is because that's the only real authority I have. I am a single human being, and I can reflect deeply on my own experience. For everyone else, it's a bit of guesswork, based on what I hear, what I see. Definitely the rise in fear since October 7th is astronomical within the Jewish community. Right after October 7th, I knew of Jewish people in my community, in my circles, who were trying to figure out if the Holocaust started again here, where would they hide? Right? Or, like, if I need to buy a gun, where do I get it? Like, people are really going into a, you know, a panic mode. Like, what the fuck just happened in, you know, in Israel? Like, all these deaths, these brutal murders, like, is this about to happen here? Like, are we witnessing history repeating itself? So, I mean, that's. That's obviously happening. What's happening towards Jews? That's a good question. I don't think we have good data. I don't think any of us have an accurate grasp of what is happening to Jews right now in Canada. There's so many different data sets to look at, and it's difficult to ascertain which ones are accurate and also which ones are important. So I'll give you an example. The most frequent data set used or thrown around or talked about is reported hate crimes. You won't see many statistics about growing antisemitism without seeing the word reported in it. So that's an interesting data set. It's valuable, for sure, for looking at trends, but there's a bunch of reasons why that might not be a relevant or important data set, and I'll give you a few, I think, practical reasons why. Number one, the Jewish community in the last few years has been encouraging people to report in ways that they've never done before. There's a huge push, like, report, report, report. And that's understandable, too. Like, I totally get that. So I think there's a real heightened awareness in the Jewish community that, like, even if it's a small aggression, report it. Report it. B' Nai Brith has an app. They have an app you can carry with you on your phone just to report hate crimes. It's a hate crime reporter app. No other community has that. The LGBT community doesn't have that. The Black community doesn't have that. The indigenous community. So when we say that reported hate crimes are going up, it's very possible that most of that or all of it is because Jews right now have a heightened sense of the importance of reporting. The second thing is, when they're reporting acts of antisemitism, what do we mean by antisemitism? And there are very clear substantiated examples, and I think there's thousands of them, but there's clear individual ones we can refer to, where people are reporting things that weren't anti Semitic at all. There was that school trustee. She was at a meeting, and one of the speakers of the meeting was wearing a keffiyeh. And she said, I just want to say on behalf of Israelis and on behalf of the Jewish faculty and the Jewish students of this entire school board, that when that man just spoke wearing a keffiyeh, that was an act of aggression. Which is ridiculous. Just like so fucking racist. I would think that one measure of that would be like, has anyone killed us yet? Are any of us dead? And when I look at the numbers in aggregate, I see that I'm more likely to choke to death on a marshmallow than to be killed because I'm a Jew. I know that a Jewish woman in Canada is 37 times more likely to be killed by her own husband than by an anti Semitic attack. If you look at where the actual violence is in our society, what the actual risks are to our physical safety, it's not anti Semitism, it's just not there. If I made a list of the 100 top concerns on my mind right now, what I think is most important for where I want to put my energy or a list of the 100 risks to my physical safety. Antisemitism is not on the list.

Jesse Brown (20:24)

You're pretty uncertain about these reports of a surge of antisemitism.

Dave Meslin (20:29)

I'm saying there are no definitive reports of a surge in antisemitism.

Jesse Brown (20:32)

So for clarity, there are two major data sets that are out there. One is the B' Nai Brith statistics, which count many of the things that you're describing.

Dave Meslin (20:41)

Yeah, for sure. And then the police have their status.

Jesse Brown (20:42)

And then there's the police status. Yeah. It's not enough for the police if the victim or whoever makes the report thinks that they're the victim of a hate crime. It has to meet the police standards as being hate motivated as a crime. So the example that you brought up of somebody feeling that a keffiyeh is anti Semitic, that would not show up in these stats, the police standard is much higher. And by these reports, there has been a definitive surge of anti Semitic hate crime. In fact, by the police reported hate crime stats, Jews are now the number one target of hate crime in Canada.

Dave Meslin (21:14)

Right. So again, that could be a consequence of more people reporting things that they weren't reporting before. Because the police can't file a report on a potential hate crime unless someone's called it in. And the Jewish community right now is hyper focused on reporting anti Semitic instances. So it's extremely likely that the increase in reports by B' Nai B' Rith or the police is because people are calling in a lot of these incidents that they might not have called in before.

Jesse Brown (21:43)

I would describe what you said so far as somebody who is highly skeptical that there is even a rise in antisemitism that you are.

Dave Meslin (21:53)

No, I'm sure there's a rise. A rise.

Jesse Brown (21:55)

Okay.

Dave Meslin (21:56)

Yeah.

Jesse Brown (21:57)

Okay, yeah.

Dave Meslin (21:58)

Oh, for sure. There's anti Semitic stuff happening. And I think on the scale of what's happening in the world, it just doesn't register to me as an interesting topic. It would be like seeing, you know, a garbage can on fire being like, oh my God, there's a garbage can on fire. When like 20ft away there's a 40 story building on fire. So if I'm running an emergency ward and someone walks in with a paper cut, I'll be like, okay, let me get you a band aid. But if before I get that band aid, someone walks in with like a bigger cut that's bleeding, I'll be like, hey, band aid guy, you gotta wait. And before I can fix that wound, someone comes in with like a shattered arm that needs instant attention. I'm going to be like, you guys have to wait. I got to deal with this arm. And then if someone else comes in with like 10 bullet holes in their heart, I'll be like, everyone's got to wait. So to me, the severity of something has to be taken in context with its relative nature to other things that are happening. So you've decided that of every topic in the world to create a podcast about, this is the one. So tell me, what's your view? What's your shtick on this?

Jesse Brown (23:00)

I've been taught that we need to keep records. I've been taught that you do not keep quiet about racism. I feel like when somebody says, I'm experiencing racism, we have to listen to them. So I've embarked on a project where at a minimum, I'm gonna sit down with people who Say it's happening to them. I'm gonna listen to what they have to say. And then why have I gone and focused on this? Because I'm tired of endless debates about what is anti Semitism, what is anti Zionism. And I want to actually find out from people.

Dave Meslin (23:26)

Okay, that's interesting.

Jesse Brown (23:27)

So that's what I've been doing for months now.

Dave Meslin (23:29)

My lens is I want to be looking out for any community, including Jews, who is suffering from organized violence against them, state discrimination and state violence. And when I look at who those communities are right now, I would look at the communities experiencing the most police violence are black and indigenous. The most disproportionate imprisonment rate is black, indigenous, Latino and Muslim. So for me, as an anti racist, I couldn't care less about anti Semitism right now. It's not on the charts.

Jesse Brown (24:03)

So you don't dispute that antisemitism, actual antisemitism is up?

Dave Meslin (24:07)

Yeah. So there's an increase. Sure. Anti Semitism since October 7th is likely increased in Canada.

Jesse Brown (24:13)

Do you think that when it occurs, Jews are being blamed for what Israel does often?

Dave Meslin (24:19)

And I think that's valid. I think that's very understandable for people to equate the Jewish community with the actions of Israel. We as a people equate ourselves with the state of Israel. That's our whole shtick. So for someone else to. It's not accidental for someone to equate the Jewish community with the actions of Israel. It's the same logo, it's the same flag.

Jesse Brown (24:43)

So when you read that the Beis Chaya Moksha Girls school has been shot at again and again and people have to wake up and decide if they're going to send their kids to school today. At a school where somebody came at night and shot at it and then came back and shot at it again. Or when you read that there have been bomb threats to Jewish schools and synagogues, when you read that Jewish businesses have their windows shattered or are set.

Dave Meslin (25:12)

On fire, none of the examples you gave to me represent a risk to anyone's physical safety. A bomb threat by nature is not a bomb. That's the whole point of it. You're trying to cause trouble. By definition it's non violent. It's a phone call. I don't think we are unsafe as Jews. I think someone shooting a school at night is actually an explicit act of, of trying to create fear without harming anyone. If you wanted to harm them, you wouldn't shoot at 3am It's a really bad strategy.

Jesse Brown (25:43)

So it has happened.

Dave Meslin (25:44)

And smashing a window is a terrible thing to do. And of course that creates fear. And it's totally anti Semitic. It's a hate crime, it should be prosecuted. But again, by definition, breaking a window does not hurt anyone. So none of these examples, I think, increase the chance of physical harm. It's not a statistical issue for us as Jews of experiencing physical harm statistically compared to like another 500 things that actually could cause us harm, like tripping on the sidewalk. I'm sorry, like none of those examples were examples related to physical harm. They were actually explicitly examples of people who wanted to make a political message, racist or not, anti Semitic or not, anti Zionist or not, but they each acted out doing it in a way. Breaking a window, shooting a wall or window in the middle of the night, or calling a school about a bomb that doesn't exist. Those are all intentional political or racist acts designed to create fear without hurting anyone.

Jesse Brown (26:41)

That doesn't hurt someone. It doesn't hurt someone to send your kid to a school that has constant bombs.

Dave Meslin (26:47)

It actually creates a norm. I mean, that's what it's designed to do. It's to create fear, to create tons of emotional hurt, tons of emotional pain. Absolutely. And that's terrible, but I don't believe that it increases. I see no evidence of an increased physical threat to Jewish safety. If I made a list of 100 things that intrigue me right now that I think are relevant to my life, that need attention, that need focus, that need exposure, that need analysis, antisemitism is not on the list. It's a complete non issue to me.

Jesse Brown (27:19)

And when things do move over, as they did in Manchester a few days ago, where Jews were murdered at synagogue, or where they did in Ottawa where a Jewish grandmother was stabbed in the back by an anti Semite in a grocery store, or in Montreal where a Hasidic man was viciously beaten in front of his children.

Dave Meslin (27:37)

So humans can be shitty, right? So let's say on average that 1 out of 3 million people is capable of committing a terrible crime either because of mental health issues or just deep racism or radicalized, right? So if it's an infinitesimally small number like 1 in 3 million, then in a country of 40 million, like it's going to happen. It's going to happen against black people, it's going to happen against Jews, it's going to happen against Muslims. We live in a world that has many manifestations of hatred and violence. So of course, occasionally, every few years, someone will be killed from every community and again, we're not on the charts. I mean, if the gay community freaked out every time three or four people will be killed, they'd be holding vigils like every hour of their. They wouldn't be able to sleep.

Jesse Brown (28:30)

I accept fully that you feel that way. And you've explained that in a way that makes sense to me how you think about these things.

Dave Meslin (28:36)

Okay, yeah.

Jesse Brown (28:36)

What if CSIS were to release a report saying that this is a huge concern for them based on their research that they are seeing online radicalization for religious motivated crime against Jews based on their data? Would that be evidence?

Dave Meslin (28:53)

No, I'd have to read it cover to cover and see what they were. I mean, absolutely. It might be, but I mean, I would have to read the report. I haven't read it. So if the thesis report included bomb threats as some measurement that increases probability of harm, then I would say, well, it's not a good report.

Jesse Brown (29:11)

No, they didn't. They cited two cases specifically. In July, Ahmed and Mustafa El Didi were arrested while allegedly in the advanced stages of planning a mass casualty attack in Toronto.

Dave Meslin (29:22)

I know that went.

Jesse Brown (29:23)

This was father and son on the verge of going out and killing Jews.

Dave Meslin (29:27)

Yeah.

Jesse Brown (29:28)

And that was thwarted by the police. There was another case where an individual named Mohammed Shazeb Khan, a Pakistani citizen living in Toronto, was arrested while attempting to illegally cross into the States. He was planning to slaughter as many Jews as possible. There are other anti Semitic or Islamist terror plots that have occurred in Canada since October 7th. So there have been attempts in two years to kill as many Jews as.

Dave Meslin (29:53)

Possible in Canada, yet no one's died. These people are pretty bad at what they're trying to do.

Jesse Brown (29:58)

Would it take that for you to, if that happened, would that change?

Dave Meslin (30:01)

Well, it's pretty funny because when people say there's a genocide in Gaza, the response is often like, how could it be a genocide? There's only 60,000 dead, millions haven't been killed yet. That's not a genocide. And here I am suggesting that I'd like to see evidence of one person being killed to prove that there's a threat. I think that's reasonable.

Jesse Brown (30:21)

But let me to prove that, that, so that first of all, so two.

Dave Meslin (30:25)

First ones you mentioned have not been found guilty. So I don't know. And we do have in Canada a really important, I think a really important part of our democratic system which is innocent until proven guilty.

Jesse Brown (30:36)

Do you think that when right wing commentators rant and rave about the menacing threat of Islamic fundamentalism, he's making life less safe for Muslims in Canada. Do you think that the rhetoric after 911 and the Islamophobic commentary.

Dave Meslin (30:52)

Yeah, for sure. I think when. Yeah, yeah, I think so.

Jesse Brown (30:57)

You mentioned earlier rhetoric around the bloodthirsty Zionist entity that you were not necessarily comfortable with.

Dave Meslin (31:02)

Yeah, I think some of that language can create harm, can create risk, can increase risk.

Jesse Brown (31:08)

Does it endanger Muslims when voices like that froth at the mouth? And even if they don't say, go hurt your local Muslim, even if they're talking about the Osama bin Ladens and the ISIS of the world, when they endlessly go on dehumanizing and making people afraid of Islamic fundamentalism, does that make life less safe for regular Muslim people living in Canada?

Dave Meslin (31:33)

I think the answer is yes. It's dangerous for us to be putting out messages that target any religion. And I know where you're going with this, and I think you're right. I think there was language used by the anti Zionist community and the pro Palestine community that crosses a line sometimes and it veers away from legitimate criticism of Israel towards language that could increase antisemitism. I think as part of the anti Zionist movement or the non Zionist movement, whatever I'm in now, you know, I'm trying to be really careful when I post on Facebook, I'm trying to be really careful that my criticism couldn't hopefully and won't be misinterpreted as criticizing Jews or making assumptions about Jews or generalizations about Jews. We should be careful that we're not using language that could put Jewish people at risk. By conflating the two, there is, I.

Jesse Brown (32:25)

Think you'll agree, an incredible amount of rage and disgust and horror with what Israel is doing. And people are seeing images that are making them very angry. And the possibility of that anger being directed towards Jews here in Canada, I think is a reasonable one that has a fair amount of substantiation in what's happened. I think it's a reasonable concern for Jews to not want that directed at them. And I think that it is being directed at Jews.

Dave Meslin (32:58)

Yeah, I think that's fair. So I can give you examples that you might not even know about, because I'm at these rallies, like I'm proudly marching as a Jew at pro Palestine rallies. And I hear things sometimes I'm like, oh, was that like, are they crossing a line there? And I have to think about it. And sometimes I'll go up to someone and be like, can you explain what you just said? Because if there's one thing that feeds all of this bloodshed, it's demonizing the other. And so that's the line that I kind of draw. And I try and choose my words really carefully. I've used really strong words to criticize what Israel's doing. I try and avoid the word genocide often just because it's so triggering for people. And there's other ways to say, you. You're killing tens of thousands of people without saying genocide. I'm resistant to the demonization of a people because I think that leads to bloodshed.

Jesse Brown (33:52)

I agree. And I think that we can lose ourselves in. Is it anti Semitic or is it anti Zionist? It's hateful.

Dave Meslin (34:02)

It can be. Yeah.

Jesse Brown (34:03)

The frequency of hateful language, which I share your understanding about, because they're just words. And in the face of the kind of massacre that people are seeing, they want to use the strongest words possible. But what I'm seeing happening is a normalization of dehumanizing language that is directed at Z's, but sounds very much like what was once said about J's.

Dave Meslin (34:30)

Okay.

Jesse Brown (34:31)

You'll see language comparing Zionists to bloodthirsty animals, clearly not.

Dave Meslin (34:37)

Clearly racist and anti Semitic, and the type of language that could incite violence and hatred. These are all examples of language that in my opinion, is not just problematic, but is a form of hate crime.

Jesse Brown (34:51)

Okay, you were saying that you take pains in your language to avoid dehumanizing and demonizing language.

Dave Meslin (34:58)

Yes.

Jesse Brown (34:59)

And to make distinctions, because we agreed that the rage to Israel, the. The anger sometimes, the hate towards Israel sometimes does get misdirected towards Jews. That. That does happen, and we don't want that to happen.

Dave Meslin (35:18)

Yes. And in other cases, it gets appropriately directed at Jewish institutions.

Jesse Brown (35:23)

At Jewish institutions, But Jews for being Jews.

Dave Meslin (35:26)

Well, let's take a step back, because a lot of these attacks that have happened recently have been at events that are explicitly Zionist. For example.

Jesse Brown (35:35)

Let's leave those out of the equation. Okay?

Dave Meslin (35:37)

Okay.

Jesse Brown (35:37)

And let's just talk about the Manchester synagogue murders. Let's talk about the Jewish dad who was beaten up.

Dave Meslin (35:45)

Let me be devil's advocate, because it is interesting, really. What was the symbol in front of the synagogue? And what's the flag of Israel? We have gone out of our way as a people to say we are Israel. So it does. I think.

Jesse Brown (36:01)

So. Are you arguing now that any synagogue with an Israeli flag is an appropriate political target, that that's okay?

Dave Meslin (36:09)

For what? For a shooting? No. For having a demonstration, maybe. I'm not sure.

Jesse Brown (36:14)

Just for being a synagogue with an Israeli flag, It might be an appropriate Target?

Dave Meslin (36:21)

I'm not sure at this point. Yeah, I think anyone waving any institution that has an Israeli flag in front of it while Israel is mass murdering people, that is a legitimate place for a nonviolent protest. Absolutely.

Jesse Brown (36:36)

And how many synagogues would you say the majority of synagogues have Israeli flags?

Dave Meslin (36:41)

Maybe all of them. I don't know.

Jesse Brown (36:42)

Probably nearly all of them.

Dave Meslin (36:44)

Yeah. If they're proudly waving the flag of a country where its leader has already been indicted on war crimes or whatever the term is charged with. War crimes. And every international humanitarian group is accusing Israel of genocide.

Interviewer (36:59)

Yeah.

Dave Meslin (36:59)

If you wave that flag, you might get a protest. Welcome to Canada. Freedom of speech 100%. 100%.

Jesse Brown (37:07)

You said earlier that you do see a relationship between demonizing language and violence. And if there is a demonstrable evidence based account of demonizing, dehumanizing language at these demonstrations, would you say that that's bringing the threat of violence to Jews at their places of worship?

Dave Meslin (37:26)

Yeah. And we have hate crimes and that person should be arrested for. Are they saying it or holding a sign? Like what's the.

Jesse Brown (37:32)

I've seen both.

Dave Meslin (37:33)

Okay. Yeah. I mean if someone's holding a sign that is racist or hateful, I mean a police officer can just arrest them. We should be pointing out and fighting against hateful messages at any protest. Of course.

Jesse Brown (37:47)

So there's a problem right now because those laws are not being enforced. And I'll tell you what an that.

Dave Meslin (37:52)

Is a problem then Absolutely, we 100% agree on that.

Jesse Brown (37:54)

So March 2024, a group that you are a member of, Independent Jewish Voices.

Dave Meslin (38:01)

Yeah, I'm a paid member of ijv.

Jesse Brown (38:04)

They called for a Jewish led protest at the Spanish and Portuguese synagogue in Montreal. Videos that emerged from the pro Palestine side had protest leaders from Pym and For Montreal for Palestine and they had the microphone.

Dave Meslin (38:21)

Okay. That's common at Jewish led events to invite Palestinian leaders to speak, including Pym.

Jesse Brown (38:28)

So I don't know if I've seen.

Dave Meslin (38:29)

That happen in Toronto and that seemed appropriate to me.

Jesse Brown (38:32)

What these pro Palestine leaders were yelling were virulently anti Semitic.

Dave Meslin (38:39)

That's problematic. They should be called out on it.

Jesse Brown (38:42)

They yelled at the Jews. Am Yisrael Chai. Well, not for long, motherfuckers. The people of Israel. So this was out in front of a synagogue at an event that Jews organized. Jews said it's okay. Before this, nobody had ever dared. Propriety, decency kept people from ever taking this angry, hateful message to a synagogue. Where the distinction between are we protesting Israel or are we Protesting Jews comes very sharply into questions. And then at the end, we had Sarah Bovin from IJV saying, with a tallis on saying, this is not an anti Semitic event.

Dave Meslin (39:27)

Okay.

Jesse Brown (39:29)

I believe that her there with her tallis and her kippah is very appreciated by people who do not want to be dismissed as hateful bigots who are inciting violence. The presence of Jews there helps that movement to launder itself when its own leaders attack the Jewish community. So I don't think you're gonna have any problem tomorrow at the Pym event with your keepah.

Dave Meslin (39:53)

Yeah, I get it. And that's a very coherent train of thought. The person you're describing is vile to me and I have nothing in common with their. With who they are and what they believe in. I still fully support IJV for organizing that event and for inviting Palestinian speakers. I hope they don't invite that one again because his words are very racist and hateful and I think could lead to violent acts. But I think as a Jew, I have an obligation to be organizing protests against Israel right now. I want to bring it to the Jewish institutions that are still saying that I unconditionally stand with Israel. They are waving a flag that is the same emblem that is on every bomb that's being dropped on every tank.

Jesse Brown (40:46)

Isn't there a difference between supporting Israel and supporting its war?

Dave Meslin (40:50)

Not at this point, no. Absolutely not.

Jesse Brown (40:52)

We're not the anti Vietnam War demonstrators. Patriotic Americans for trying to save their country from an immoral war. They were still Americans who waved the American flag. That happened at protests in the 60s all the time.

Dave Meslin (41:05)

Good question. I wasn't there at the time. Like, flags are weird. I don't know.

Jesse Brown (41:09)

Those people vociferously denied that they were anti American. They said that what they were doing was, as Americans, they wanted the war to stop.

Dave Meslin (41:17)

Right.

Jesse Brown (41:17)

It's possible, isn't it, to support our Israeli.

Dave Meslin (41:21)

Were they saying. Were those people saying that Israel should stop? Because if you're not calling for a ceasefire, you're supporting a genocide. There's no. That's binary at this point. The Jewish community in Toronto has so much blood on their hands. I think that has consequences. People are gonna be really mad at you.

Jesse Brown (41:36)

The Jewish community has blood on its hands.

Dave Meslin (41:38)

Absolutely.

Jesse Brown (41:39)

The Jewish community?

Dave Meslin (41:41)

Yeah. All the institutions that represent.

Jesse Brown (41:42)

No, no, no. Institutions are not the community.

Dave Meslin (41:45)

Why not? So what's the community to you? I didn't say Jewish people. I said the community. There are organizations that represent a community and speak on behalf of the community, including the trustee I mentioned earlier who said the keffiyeh was an act of aggression. She said, I am speaking on behalf of all the Jews in the whole school board. This is normal for Jews. There is a Jewish community. Absolutely. And they are almost universally, homogenously, monolithically. Did I say that? 1 already supporting the genocide. And I say that with complete confidence and clear headedness.

Jesse Brown (42:18)

Say more. What should we do about them?

Dave Meslin (42:19)

Depends who you are.

Jesse Brown (42:21)

What should be done about these Jews with blood on their hands?

Dave Meslin (42:23)

The Jews of the Jewish community. I didn't say Jews.

Jesse Brown (42:27)

What is the distinction?

Dave Meslin (42:28)

Huge. The Jewish community is organized into institutions.

Jesse Brown (42:33)

No, you're talking about organizations. A community is what you and I live in.

Dave Meslin (42:37)

Yeah.

Jesse Brown (42:39)

A community is the neighborhood of Armor Heights where I was born, where protestors came because they described it. Not one bad apple, but the leader of that protest week after week called it a Zionist infested neighborhood.

Dave Meslin (42:53)

I think that's vile.

Jesse Brown (42:54)

Well, that's where they came because that's where you find the Jewish community.

Dave Meslin (42:57)

Dave, that's not the way I was using the word community. So I understand why you're angry because you're interpreting that as like. I didn't mean Jewish neighborhood.

Jesse Brown (43:06)

If you feel like the protesters who are bringing a hateful demonstration. Jesse, I know to that community are observing this very baroque distinction that you have that the community is a bunch of institutions.

Dave Meslin (43:18)

They were taking it to a synagogue that was openly supporting a real estate event.

Jesse Brown (43:24)

Where are Jewish Jews? In their homes, in their synagogue, in their restaurants.

Dave Meslin (43:29)

Where are Jews? Wherever we are.

Jesse Brown (43:30)

Where does Jewish life take place?

Dave Meslin (43:32)

Jewish life?

Jesse Brown (43:33)

Yeah.

Dave Meslin (43:33)

Everywhere.

Jesse Brown (43:34)

We are part of a wider society. We walk around. Nobody necessarily knows that we're Jews. What could make us afraid to be Jews?

Dave Meslin (43:41)

I'm not afraid to be a Jew.

Jesse Brown (43:42)

What could make us afraid? If there are people outside of our synagogue screaming at us that we're going to be annihilated. Could that make people afraid to be a Jewish?

Dave Meslin (43:49)

If someone said that outside a synagogue.

Jesse Brown (43:51)

They did.

Dave Meslin (43:52)

Yeah. I think that could make someone be afraid.

Jesse Brown (43:54)

What if you are much more likely to be targeted with one of the several bomb plots that are. Where do they get targeted towards?

Dave Meslin (44:01)

You said they were bomb. Oh, the bomb plots.

Jesse Brown (44:03)

The bomb plots.

Dave Meslin (44:04)

Right.

Jesse Brown (44:05)

Places where Jews congregate. The restaurants and synagogues. What could make Jewish life impossible? Where you would be afraid to send your kid out of the house with a mug and da vid or to practice your religion is the conflation.

Dave Meslin (44:18)

I think it's a tough one for the Jewish community. I'm not sure I'm trying to help.

Jesse Brown (44:22)

You understand maybe why so many people are so angry with you.

Dave Meslin (44:24)

Oh, that's okay. And I appreciate that early on, and I'm trying to explain why I'm still very confident and firm in my views.

Jesse Brown (44:32)

You don't sound confident and firm because there's a lot of contradiction in what you've said today. At times in this conversation, you have expressed, I think, just a basic humanistic opinion that demonizing and dehumanizing language should.

Dave Meslin (44:45)

Be avoided and fought back against in any context.

Jesse Brown (44:52)

And that there is an important distinction between anger and rage at Israel, the Israeli government and army, and Jews living their lives in Canada.

Dave Meslin (45:03)

I should have said Jewish institutions, and I apologize for that.

Jesse Brown (45:06)

Jewish institutions are a few.

Dave Meslin (45:08)

I was speaking as a Jew to a Jew, and of course, it's a podcast, so I should be more careful.

Jesse Brown (45:12)

It's easy to get muddied up. Because you're saying that synagogues are fair game.

Dave Meslin (45:15)

I think most synagogues in Toronto right now are fair game for protest against the genocide. If you're gonna wave an Israeli flag and then not say a word about the genocide, yeah, you're definitely a target for a protest. My God, how would you not be?

Jesse Brown (45:28)

A protest that we both agree sometimes involves dehumanizing language, which we both agree can lead to violence. So here's what I wanna ask you.

Dave Meslin (45:36)

About your own work as an event organizer. You have to put a lot of effort into who gets the mic. That's like. That's a skill.

Jesse Brown (45:43)

Well, you have a mic, and it.

Dave Meslin (45:44)

Sounds like some of these groups haven't done a good job.

Jesse Brown (45:45)

You have a mic. You have an audience.

Dave Meslin (45:47)

I do.

Jesse Brown (45:48)

You've said Zionism is a horrid blemish on our history.

Dave Meslin (45:51)

Yeah, I do believe that.

Jesse Brown (45:53)

You've said this is Judaism's darkest hour. I do believe that we have become what we most fear. I believe that we have betrayed our values.

Dave Meslin (46:01)

Yes, I believe that.

Jesse Brown (46:02)

Let me ask you then.

Dave Meslin (46:03)

Yeah.

Jesse Brown (46:04)

If you are someone who believes that Jews are responsible for what you consider to be a genocide, if that's your belief, if you are somebody who is outraged, livid with what Israel is doing and you want to do something about it, and you read online, a Jewish person, no less, saying that all of Judaism has lost its soul, do you think that that might be compatible with doing harm against your Jewish neighbor and inciting?

Dave Meslin (46:39)

I think the probability is low enough that it doesn't concern me. It's completely outweighed by the lives I can save by calling out my community for actually supporting A genocide, which is what's happening.

Jesse Brown (46:49)

So you hope more synagogues are the targets of demonstrations that we agree will likely continue to include dehumanizing and demonizing language. Because, hey, how do you stop that at a protest?

Dave Meslin (47:00)

Yeah, as long as they're organized with a framework based on nonviolence and that people who are saying hateful things to the microphone are taken off the microphone, as they should. Yes. I would like to see more protests outside of Jewish institutions.

Jesse Brown (47:14)

Well, let's leave it there. As Mez was leaving, we chatted about the protest that he was planning to march in the next day. A protest organized by the group Palestinian Youth Movement. I asked him if he knew the Palestinian Youth Movement had celebrated the October 7 Hamas massacre, quite literally. They hosted a celebration of the resistance at Toronto City hall, an uplifting of the martyrs, which they held just two days after Hamas murdered over 1,200 Israelis. Mez seemed surprised to hear this. He asked if I had any proof that this had happened. And I did, and I sent it to him. And then he asked me for some time to think about it. Nine days later, he sent me a long email. He said that he was okay with Palestinian Youth movement's celebration of October 7th. He wrote that in general, I consider Palestinian resistance, including armed resistance, to be kosher. He went on to clarify that he does not support acts of terrorism against civilians. He told me that finding out that Palestinian Youth Movement had expressed support for Hamas did not stop him from marching with them. He said that he did so proudly and that at the demonstration, he felt surrounded by love and courage. He said that he was on the lookout for anti Semitism at the march, and it was there. One group of protesters had a megaphone, and they were yelling, jews run the banks. Jews run the media. Jews run the world. But to mes, those racists were outliers. They did not represent the protest or the movement as a whole. So who does?

Pro-Palestine Demonstrator (49:01)

I have been speaking on behalf of this group, and I can speak for a large number of people that show up at these pro Palestine demonstrations. There are a lot of claims that are made about us that are not true. We're not here to promote racism. Globalize the intifada. Yes, I 100% believe in that statement.

Jesse Brown (49:24)

That's on our next episode. This episode was made possible by the generous support of the Bissell Family Foundation, George Berger, Dan DeBeau, Daniel Klaas, Nan Okun, Leslie Scanlon, Marjorie Skolnick, Lee Zentner and others. This series is not yet fully funded. I want to be able to complete it. We want to bring it to campuses across Canada for town hall conversations about how all of this has created fear and harm in our university and college communities. We want to host discussions between people who are interested in working together to restore safety. To do any of that, we require financial support. Funders may be eligible to receive tax deductible donation receipts through our project partner, the Canadian Jewish News, a registered journalism organization with the CRA. Contributing is easy. Just email me directly@jesseanadaland.com and I'll take you through the process. My name is spelled j e-s s e canadaland.com what is happening Here is a co production of Canadaland Podcasts and the Canadian Jewish News. This episode was written and reported by me, Jesse Brown Research and story editing by Kate Minsky Original music by so called Sound Design, mixing and mastering by Caleb Thompson Editorial input from Michael Freeman. We've put links to statistics and sources cited in today's episode in the show. Notes. Thank you to Stephen Marsh, Jonathan Rothman, Mark Musselman and the entire team here at Canadaland for their input and their support. The next episode of what Is Happening Here will be available next week, wherever you get your podcasts. To become a Canadaland supporter, go to canadaland.com join thank you for listening.