#4 Inside the Antizionist Movement

Summary

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What Is Happening Here | Canadaland Investigates

Episode #4: Inside the Antizionist Movement

Host: Jesse Brown (Canadaland)
Date: December 3, 2025

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Overview

This episode interrogates the current wave of anti-Zionist street demonstrations in Toronto—especially those occurring at the epicenter of Jewish community life along Bathurst Street—and grapples with a central question: Where is the line between anti-Zionism and antisemitism in Canada today? Host Jesse Brown explores the motivations and actions of both demonstrators and local Jewish residents, engaging directly with Moez Zaman, a spokesperson for the movement, to scrutinize rhetoric heard at protests, the intended and unintended impacts on local Jews, and the responsibility of activists to confront hate within their own ranks.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Significance of Bathurst Street ([00:03]–[02:00])

• Bathurst Street in Toronto is introduced as "the most Jewish street in Canada," home to a diversity of Jewish communities, synagogues, and cultural centers.
• It has become a focal point for both anti-Zionist protests and an uptick in anti-Jewish hate crimes.
• Jesse Brown notes:

  "Bathurst street is not just the focal point for anti-Zionist protest in Canada. It's also become a focal point for anti-Jewish crime." [02:00]

2. Protest Dynamics and Community Tension ([02:00]–[05:51])

• Recurring Demonstrations: Both pro-Israel and anti-Zionist groups have held frequent, often simultaneous rallies at Bathurst & Sheppard.
• Police keep the groups on opposite sides, but rhetoric can blur lines between protests and the broader community.
• Local Jewish residents express distress about the protests’ proximity:

  "We want the anti-Israel protesters to stay away...This is a residential neighborhood. And we want you to stop coming up here and harassing the Jewish community." [03:30]

3. Interview with Moez Zaman, Antizionist Organizer ([05:51]–[41:58])

a) Framing and Understanding Protest Slogans ([06:16]–[13:17])

• Rhetoric at Demonstrations: Jesse Brown systematically asks Moez Zaman to clarify phrases used at protests.
• "Globalize the intifada":
  • Moez:

    "I 100% believe in that statement...Intifada has meant armed resistance...I believe in the legality of the armed resistance against occupation. That doesn't mean I advocate for me and my friends at Bathurst and Shepherd to pick up a secondhand Uzi and go crazy. Absolutely not. That's not what we're about." [07:32]–[08:10]

• "Go back to Europe":
  • Moez explains it as referencing Israeli Ashkenazi origins, but admits:

    "I'm not a big fan of these types of statements. Oftentimes I feel that they do more harm to our movement than good." [08:38]

  • When pressed about the racism underlying such remarks, Moez concedes:

    "Yeah, there's definitely an element of racism, an undertone at the very least to statements like that." [10:32]

• "Fake Jew":
  • Moez says it's intended as a critique of non-religious Jews or those identified with Zionism, though Jesse points out the historical inaccuracy and its potential as a slur.

b) Symbolism and Provocative Gestures ([12:35]–[15:52])

• Inverted Red Triangle: Used by Moez in protest signs.
  • Moez:

    "It's a symbol of violence. It means Israeli soldiers, people actively serving in the IDF are legitimate targets of the Palestinian resistance, which they are." [13:00]

  • Disclaims any advocacy of violence locally:

    "I definitely do not [have violent intent]. And I hope... my daughter will grow up...to fight on behalf of people who are being oppressed." [13:17]

• Hamas Glorification: On being photographed near imagery associated with Hamas’ Yahya Sinwar:
  • Moez equivocates but says:

    "I would say you have a very good case of making that [accusation]." [14:28]

• Nazi Salutes at Demonstrations:
  • Moez expresses frustration, distancing himself from such gestures:

    "It saddens me when people speak on the basis of emotion and they discredit the very noble cause that we're fighting for." [14:45]

c) Relationship Between Protest and Antisemitic Violence ([16:48]–[21:56])

• Context of Hate Crimes: Jesse details a series of violent, antisemitic incidents in the Bathurst corridor.
• Moez repeatedly condemns such attacks, insists his group isn't responsible, but at first speculates some attacks are unrelated to the Palestinian cause, which is challenged with facts.
• Debate Over Protest Location:
  • Jesse questions the choice to protest in predominantly Jewish neighborhoods instead of political targets.
  • Moez:

    "Any act of violence towards Jewish people on Bathurst should be condemned... The point is not that it's a synagogue...It's because [the synagogue] was hosting an event with Israeli real estate and law firms selling land in occupied Palestinian territory." [18:02]–[23:07]

• At Bathurst & Sheppard:

  "We are there in a counter demonstration against that type of a support for a fascist ideology [i.e., pro-Israel rallies]." [24:03]

d) Impact on Local Jewish Community ([25:47]–[32:41])

• Jesse and the interviewer point out most Jews in the neighborhood are not demonstrators but regular residents; their sense of safety is affected.
• Moez acknowledges the problem:

  "You're right, that they have no way of distinguishing between what I'm telling you right now and...some of the iconography and the symbols that are physically present." [32:10]

  • Proposes a solution:

    "End both demonstrations...and then nobody will feel terrorized. Isn't that fair?" [29:33]

  • Repeats that anti-Zionist protests are only there as counter-demonstrations:

    "If the day that stops on the west of Bathurst, we're gone." [30:04]

e) Responsibility for Confronting Hate Within the Movement ([33:02]–[36:25])

• Jesse presses Moez on whether anti-Jewish haters are actively called out or expelled.
  • Moez claims attempts are made:

    "Yes, we do try our best to kick them out...There was someone that showed up at Bathurst and Shepherd and this guy is a radical, anti-Semite, extremist. And we contacted the cops and informed them... and said, this guy is not with us, we do not want him... I have called out people in our group who said things that could definitely be construed as anti-Semitic." [35:03]

  • Asserts personal opposition:

    "I'm not here because I'm pro Palestinian. I hate that term. I'm here because I'm pro human being." [36:00]

• Both agree that community members are justified in feeling threatened when protests are accompanied by violent rhetoric or iconography.

f) Limits of Protester Responsibility and Community Impact ([36:25]–[41:58])

• Jesse highlights the lasting trauma to Jews nearby, citing school attacks and persistent fear, regardless of specific perpetrators’ affiliations.
• Moez concedes:

  "I understand your counterpoint that when you introduce these types of symbols into it...it's not unreasonable to surmise that some dude just walking his baby down the street on Bathurst might obviously associate those two things." [37:00]

• On separating ‘noble’ protest from hate:

  "If you don't want to be confused with an anti-Semite, it's not good to be standing next to a guy who's throwing up a Nazi salute." [38:59] "The guy with the Sieg Heil, that's a baboon. That's far beyond the pale." [39:27]

• On accepting unintended consequences:

  "What we can do is tell the cops this is incitement, and that person can be arrested, and they probably will be. Right. So there's only so much control that we have in this type of a situation." [40:48]

4. Aftermath and Escalation ([42:05]–End)

• Jesse reports that even after the pro-Israel demonstrators ceased their rallies, anti-Zionist protests continued at Bathurst & Sheppard, and ultimately the group marched through residential streets, directing their slogans at everyday Jewish residents.
• Recorded slogan:

  "You teach your kids how to kill babies?" [43:07–43:08]

• Resident’s plea:

  "We have nothing to do with whatever your issues are, okay?" [43:25]

• Jesse Brown closes by reflecting on the uniqueness and severity of the situation in Toronto, suggesting it outpaces even the United States in terms of antisemitic incidents tied to anti-Zionist activism:

  "There is no equivalent of this in any American city. No American Jewish neighborhood where anti-Zionists congregate to protest every week." [43:36]

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Notable Quotes

• Jesse Brown on protest location & impact (to Moez):

  "You're going to a neighborhood where a targeted minority lives that is being repeatedly targeted with gunshots at children's schools...Why are you protesting in a neighborhood where so many Jewish people live? Perfectly valid question if you wish to be protesting Israel." [19:22]

• Moez Zaman on separating anti-Zionism from antisemitism:

  "I have absolutely no animosity towards Jewish people. And we have to make it clear that we are here not to support...racism. I'm not here because I'm pro Palestinian...I'm here because I'm pro human being." [36:00]

• On community vulnerability after repeated attacks:

  Interviewer: "If your kid's school had gunshots fired at it on three separate occasions, I think you have been threatened." [36:25]

• On escalation of protests into residential areas:

  Jesse Brown: "The next weekend, once again, there were no pro Israel demonstrators left...so they marched onto a nearby residential street and aimed their remarks at the Jews who live there, right at their doorsteps." [42:39]

• Resident’s plea for peace:

  "We have nothing to do with whatever your issues are, okay?" [43:25]

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Key Timestamps

• The Bathurst Jewish community & protest context: [00:03]–[02:00]
• Clashing demonstrations & police tactics: [02:00]–[05:51]
• Deep-dive interview with Moez Zaman: [06:16]–[41:58]
  • Rhetorical breakdown and explanations: [07:27]–[13:17]
  • Impact of violence and symbolism: [16:48]–[32:41]
  • Movement's responsibility for confronting internal antisemitism: [33:02]–[36:25]
  • Accepting the impact on community & suggested solutions: [36:25]–[41:58]
• Escalation to residential harassment: [42:05]–[43:36]
• Closing reflections and preview: [43:36]–End

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Tone

The episode maintains a balanced, investigative, and often tense tone, as Jesse Brown and the interviewer press for clarity and accountability while allowing Moez Zaman ample space to explain the movement's perspective. The dialogue is frank and unsparing on the impact of activism on community safety, with repeated acknowledgments of pain and discomfort on all sides. At all times, the focus circles back to the critical, unresolved question: When does anti-Zionist activism in Canada cross the line into antisemitism, and what is the responsibility of activists to protect vulnerable communities?

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This summary covers the main arguments, notable exchanges, and relevant context from the episode, providing a comprehensive, time-coded map for listeners and non-listeners alike.

Transcript

[Interviewer]

Most of the Jews who live in.

[Jesse Brown]

Canada live in Toronto. And most Jews in Toronto live in neighborhoods that border Bathurst street from north to south. Bathurst street is over 50km long. It's been called the longest Jewish neighborhood in the world, but that's not quite right. Bathurst is actually a string of Jewish neighborhoods. Hasidic, Sephardic, Orthodox, Reform. These are the neighborhoods where famous Canadian Jews grew up like Drake and the and Lorne Michaels, as well as Joe Shuster, the co creator of Superman. Soviet Jews who came here as refuseniks in the 80s migrated over the decades from sardine packed high rise apartments at Bathurst and Steele's to leafy Jewish suburbs around Bathurst and Finch, then sometimes to grand homes at Bathurst and Eglinton. There are over 30 synagogues on or near Bathurst Street. There are multiple Jewish community centers. There are Jewish retirement homes. Bathurst is the most Jewish street in Canada and it's the street where anti Zionists gather for angry protests weekend after weekend.

[Anti-Zionist Protester]

Long lived in Tifordan. Long lived in Tiffany.

[Moez Zaman]

See it again.

[Pro-Israel Demonstrator]

Come on.

[Moez Zaman]

Come on.

[Anti-Zionist Protester]

Why are you here?

[Moez Zaman]

Why are you here?

[Anti-Zionist Protester]

You should be in Europe.

[Jesse Brown]

They always come to the same spot right at the epicenter of Jewish life in Toronto, the corner of Bathurst and Shepherd. There have been over 40 of these demonstrations which occupy an intersection that thousands of Toronto Jews cross on their way to their homes, to their schools, to public transit. Jewish families who live nearby can often hear the chanting from inside their homes.

[Anti-Zionist Protester]

There is only one solution. There is only one solution. Intifada Revolution.

[Jesse Brown]

Bathurst street is not just a focal point for anti Zionist protest in Canada. It's also become a focal point for anti Jewish crime. Earlier in this series you heard about a Jewish girls school that was shot at three times. You heard from a woman who was assaulted on her way home from a synagogue. You heard about bomb threats and bomb plots. A significant chunk of those incidents happened on her or near Bathurst. It's just normal now. It stopped making the news each time the windows of a synagogue or Jewish business get smashed.

[Pro-Israel Demonstrator]

This community is being put at risk by these people who raise that flag. Their animalistic, criminalistic behaviors will come out. They're putting the community at risk.

[Jesse Brown]

That's Navid Bahadur. He's not talking about the anti Zionist protesters. He's talking about the pro Israel demonstrators who've also held weekly protests at the at the very same intersection. The police relegated the pro Israel crowd to the west side and the anti Zionists to the east side of Bathurst Street.

[Pro-Israel Demonstrator]

This community is being put at risk by these people who raised that flag supporting the Palestinian holocaust.

[Jesse Brown]

Navid is saying that by waving the Israeli flag, it's the pro Israel crowd who are endangering Toronto Jews who live near Bathurst Street.

[Anti-Zionist Protester]

If people think antisemitism is a joke, let them come here to Bathurst and Shepherd and see for themselves. Palestine was named after of the Romans. The Romans named in Palestine.

[Local Resident]

We want protesters to find somewhere else to gather. We want the anti Israel protesters to stay away there. There's no embassy here. There's no. There's no consulates here. There's no government buildings here. There's no city squares here. This is a residential neighborhood. And we want you to stop coming up here and harassing the Jewish community.

[Jesse Brown]

Navid Bahadur is an organizer of the weekly anti Zionist protest. The distinction that you heard him make earlier between the pro Israel protesters who he called animalistic and the surrounding Jewish community who he expressed concern for. Well, sometimes that distinction gets a bit blurry.

[Pro-Israel Demonstrator]

You might see a Zionist as a doctor, a lawyer, they might be. They're all over us, all around us. June 9th, you'll see this wild animalistic behavior by them. A lot of police are going to be there. We'll be safe from them. Inshaallah. Just show up, you know, you'll see some savages live in action. We know what that means when Zionists complain. It's a rat pack. We will show the Palestinian flag on this overpass because it's in a Zionist infested area.

[Jesse Brown]

In other remarks, Navid accused Zionists of trying to kill Christ. I wanted clarity as to exactly who Navid is organizing these protests to protest against. I was able to get a hold of his cell number and I texted him an invitation for an interview. I told him that I wasn't looking for a debate or an argument, that.

[Interviewer]

I wanted to ask him about his.

[Jesse Brown]

Thoughts and his actions and have him clarify in his own words what the demonstrations that he organizes are all about. And he wrote back to me. He said that he would love to speak with me, but he also said that he's been targeted by zios with death threats and that he can't do an interview due to tensions within his family. But he said that there was someone else who could speak for his group.

[Moez Zaman]

So my name is Moez, Moez Zaman. Lately I have been speaking a lot on behalf of this group. There is some kind of leadership. There are people that we defer to to make some of the important decisions and then those decisions get handed down to us. We have a charter and there is a core Group of people. We would take our directive from people like Navid.

[Jesse Brown]

I reached out to Moes, and he joined me in our Toronto studio. And the rest of today's episode is dedicated to my conversation with.

[Moez Zaman]

There are a lot of claims that are made about us that are not true. We are not the people that are being portrayed in news organizations that are trying to put us in a bad light.

[Interviewer]

There does seem to be a difficulty in the discourse around. People say, well, they're obviously standing because they believe this.

[Moez Zaman]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And no, that's not what we believe. Well, that sign means this. Well, that's not what the sign means.

[Moez Zaman]

Yeah.

[Jesse Brown]

Why not just ask?

[Moez Zaman]

Exactly. And I should have started by thanking you for asking me to come on, because I do believe that people like us, although we disagree on a number of topics, a number of fundamental topics, it is important for us to have a type of a dialogue. Especially like to be very frank with you, There are people out there that have made it their mission to expose what they call antisemitism, and they do deliberately misrepresent what we say and what we're about.

[Interviewer]

I can't misrepresent it or represent it if I don't understand it.

[Moez Zaman]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So let me try to understand it. Can I go through some things that I've seen or heard at the demonstrations, and I might think that they mean one thing, but I just want to hear.

[Moez Zaman]

Absolutely.

[Interviewer]

What do you think they mean? What do they mean to you?

[Moez Zaman]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Okay, what about this one? Globalize the intifada.

[Moez Zaman]

Yes. I 100% believe in that statement. Globalize the intifada. So what is intifada? You have to understand what intifada means. Some people will hear this term and they say, oh, it means kill all the Jews. Right. That's absolutely not what it means.

[Interviewer]

Intifada has meant armed resistance.

[Moez Zaman]

Absolutely.

[Interviewer]

When you agree with globalizing the intifada, do you agree that armed resistance in support of Palestine should be globalized?

[Moez Zaman]

I believe in the legality of the armed resistance against occupation. That doesn't mean I advocate for me and my friends at Bathurst and Shepherd to pick up a secondhand Uzi and go crazy. Absolutely not. That's not what we're about.

[Interviewer]

There are people who have interpreted globalized the intifada to mean that the violence should not be constrained to Israel, that there should be an armed and violent response around the world. There are people who believe that.

[Moez Zaman]

And who would that violence be directed to? Jewish civilians walking up and down Bathurst, minding their own business. If there are people that that are saying that, then that's problematic.

[Interviewer]

100% heard this in a lot of demonstrations. Go back to Europe. What does that mean to you?

[Moez Zaman]

So when people say go back to Europe, what they're saying is that Israelis who live in Israel are not indigenous to that part of the world. They're largely Ashkenazi Jews from central and eastern Europe, and they're saying, go back to Europe. I'm not a big fan of these types of statements. Oftentimes I feel that they do more harm to our movement than good. But you have to understand that in the course of political activism, there will always be people that are naturally going to get caught up with the hype and say things. And, you know, it happens on both sides. And it's not something that I personally focus on.

[Interviewer]

Leaving aside the question of indigeneity and the question of the makeup of the demographics of Israel, Ashkenazi vs. Sephardic Jews, Jews from Arab countries and other places, do you know why Jews can came from Europe to Israel, Palestine?

[Moez Zaman]

If you want me to say it was largely a product of the Holocaust, I think that's the answer you're looking for.

[Interviewer]

I'm not looking for any particular answer.

[Moez Zaman]

Okay, sorry.

[Interviewer]

I want to know what you think.

[Moez Zaman]

I shouldn't assume that you're right. My apologies.

[Interviewer]

Have you heard this said in Canada? I've heard it said to Jewish people in Canada. What do you make of that? What does it mean when it's said here to a Jewish person?

[Moez Zaman]

Well, again, it's. It's a trope of sorts. I mean, like I said, political activists are oftentimes very emotional. They don't speak based on reason or logic or scientific, empirically verifiable evidence. They speak based on emotion. That's the nature of political activism to some extent.

[Interviewer]

If you don't mind me asking, were you born in Canada?

[Moez Zaman]

I was not.

[Interviewer]

Where were you born?

[Moez Zaman]

I was born in Iran.

[Interviewer]

In Iran. If I heard someone say to you, go back to Iran.

[Moez Zaman]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

I would immediately identify that as a racist statement.

[Moez Zaman]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Would you agree?

[Moez Zaman]

Yeah, there's definitely an element of racism, an undertone at the very least to statements like that. I would agree with you on that. Absolutely.

[Interviewer]

I've heard this one as well.

[Moez Zaman]

Fake Jew. So this one I can speak to a little bit more. So what people mean when they say fake Jew is that if you want to be a Jew, you. You have to practice Judaism, you have to follow the Torah, you have to follow the 10 commandments that were given to Moses on Mount Sinai. You have to follow the 613, I think, in Total Commandments. And if you don't do that, then you're not actually a Jew according to the older conventional definition, which was based on religious identity, not ethnicity or a nationality, until the Zionist movement started to spring up.

[Interviewer]

Okay, I appreciate that you're explaining your understanding of what other people mean when they say fake Jew. I must tell you that this notion that before Zionism, Jewishness was only defined by religious observance alone and not by peoplehood or ethnicity or culture. That is ahistorical. That's inaccurate. But. But I have heard this lobbed at pro Israel demonstrators. You're a fake Jew. You're not even a real Jew. I didn't know what that meant in the context of pro Palestine versus pro Israel.

[Moez Zaman]

Yeah, maybe some people. Again, it's the nature of political activists, especially when they're in their early to mid-20s, you know, how smart were you as a 22 year old? I was a bit of an airhead. So this is what I understand to be the meaning of fake Jew. But if you're asking me, do political activists say these phrases as a derogatory statement against people protesting on the other side? Yeah, probably. But like I said, it's the nature of political activism.

[Interviewer]

This is one from you. Here's a picture of you and your kid and you have a sign and there's the inverted red triangle.

[Moez Zaman]

That's right.

[Interviewer]

What does the inverted red triangle mean to you?

[Moez Zaman]

So the inverted red triangle is used by the armed resistance as a symbol against Israeli soldiers in occupied Palestine.

[Interviewer]

What does it mean, that symbol, when they use it?

[Moez Zaman]

It's a symbol of violence. It means Israeli soldiers, people actively serving in the IDF are legitimate targets of the Palestinian resistance, which they are.

[Interviewer]

It identifies the target.

[Moez Zaman]

Yes, yes, absolutely.

[Interviewer]

What is a nonviolent use of that triangle?

[Moez Zaman]

Well, I have the triangles pointing over me and my 3 year old. So it definitely doesn't mean we self inflicted violence. I consider myself to be a part of the resistance. That doesn't mean I have any violent intent. I definitely do not. And I hope, I hope that my daughter will grow up with the morals and the ethics that will motivate her to fight on behalf of people who are being oppressed. So yeah, so that is the intention behind that. And I would be honored and proud if my daughter were to grow up to become part of the resistance.

[Interviewer]

This is a picture of you and there's a chair behind you.

[Moez Zaman]

Yes. To replicate the chair where the Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar was seen in that drone Attack.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, there's like, red blood paint on the chair.

[Moez Zaman]

So to be fair, I happen to be standing in front of the chair. I'm not posing with the chair. So I wouldn't say that's a picture of me with the chair. That's a picture of me in the proximity of the chair, by pure coincidence.

[Jesse Brown]

So what does that chair mean?

[Interviewer]

Would it be correct to see this as a glorification and a statement of support for Sinwar and of Hamas?

[Moez Zaman]

I would say you have a very good case of making that so just on a personal level. I had no role in that whole thing, so I can't speak to that.

[Interviewer]

Okay, this guy here, he's making a gesture.

[Moez Zaman]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

What is that gesture?

[Moez Zaman]

Sure, it looks like a Sig Heil, and I don't know this guy. It saddens me when people speak on the basis of emotion and they discredit the very noble cause that we're fighting for.

[Interviewer]

Would you agree with this statement, Hamas is a legitimate part of the resistance?

[Moez Zaman]

You know, I can't answer this because I feel like it's a loaded question.

[Interviewer]

A lot of people have said these are pro Hamas demonstrations. So I thought I'd just ask you.

[Moez Zaman]

And. Yeah, yeah. So to say. So that I would say. That's a better way of putting it. To say these are pro Hamas demonstrations. This is being said by uneducated people that have an agenda, but it's simply not true. By asking questions like, do you condemn October 7th or do you condemn Hamas?

[Jesse Brown]

I'm not asking.

[Interviewer]

I'm not asking you to condemn any. I'm asking what you support. I'm asking you what you believe in.

[Moez Zaman]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Seems like a legitimate question to simply ask you, do you consider Hamas to be legitimate? Are you there? As you stand in front of a chair that symbolizes and glorifies Sinwar and.

[Moez Zaman]

Hamas, I would say they are a legitimate part.

[Interviewer]

Israel will be annihilated.

[Moez Zaman]

Yes. If I were to say Israel will be annihilated, what I'm referring to is the Zionist ethnostate, which has colonialism and ethnic cleansing as its twin pillars. That doesn't mean drive the Jews into the sea. I can speak for myself and I can speak for a large number of people that show up at these pro Palestine demonstrations. The overwhelming majority of people do not have these negative views of Jews or an anti Semitic bone in their body.

[Interviewer]

As you know, there's not a lot of Jewish people. Well, not a lot of Jewish people.

[Jesse Brown]

In the world and not a lot.

[Interviewer]

Of Jewish people in Canada. They're very concentrated in which neighborhoods they live in. And Bathurst and Shepherd is probably the epicenter. And Bathurst has also been where a lot of anti Semitic crime has taken place since October 7th. Batherston shepherd, where you demonstrate every weekend, is just a few minutes from a school. It's been shot at three times. Beis Chaya Moksha has been shot at on three separate occasions. It's not far from Batherston Wilson, where a school bus was torched that services a Jewish school. Bathurst and Wilson's also where arrests were made for people making death threats against Jews. Bathurst and Lawrence. A guy came to a Jewish school and told the kids there he'd kill all the Jews. And then he got into a fight with a staff member, physical fight. Bathurst street in Flamingo. A guy's been convicted for assaulting Jewish congregants coming out of a synagogue. So it's been going on all over Canada. But Bathurst street is the community that you go to every weekend.

[Moez Zaman]

Gotcha. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Is a community that has been targeted again and again and again.

[Moez Zaman]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Why do you go to this community?

[Moez Zaman]

Any act of violence towards Jewish people on Bathurst should be condemned and the people that do this kind of stuff should be criminally prosecuted. In some of the. I didn't know all these instances that you cited, the ones that I did know of, the offenders were not pro Palestinian demonstrators. They were not Muslims, they were not Arabs. In the ones that I know of.

[Interviewer]

Amir Arvahi Azhar was charged with 29 criminal counts for a hate crime spree attacking five Toronto synagogues.

[Moez Zaman]

Yeah, so that definitely sounds like someone that might look like me. Yes.

[Interviewer]

Mohammed Ilyas Akodad, 19 year old, charged with firebombing Montreal area synagogue in December. So, you know.

[Moez Zaman]

Okay, no, you're right. You gave me examples. Yeah, 100%. I just wasn't aware of those examples.

[Interviewer]

But my question was not.

[Moez Zaman]

No, no, but because you presented it in a certain context.

[Interviewer]

My context was not to suggest that the members of your demonstration are committing these crimes.

[Jesse Brown]

Yeah, I have no idea.

[Moez Zaman]

Yeah. You're just referring to the fact that anti Semitic attacks have been taking place and we're demonstrating in the neighborhood in the proximity of those acts.

[Interviewer]

You're going to a neighborhood where a targeted minority lives that is being repeatedly targeted with gunshots at children's schools.

[Moez Zaman]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

And things like that. And that is where you are choosing to demonstrate. And I believe it's about a 22 minute drive from the part of town that you're coming from to Bathurst and Shepherd. It's 26 minutes to the Israeli consulate. Why are you protesting in a neighborhood where so many Jewish people live? Perfectly valid question if you wish to be protesting Israel.

[Moez Zaman]

Yes. So thank you for the question. So, yeah, just to. Not to sound like a broken record, but just to clarify, the perpetrators of those acts of violence against Jews on Bathurst are not connected to me and my friends, as far as we know. So regardless of who's doing it, it's wrong. Obviously, I would also be very skeptical about some of these anti Semitic attacks because there are documented cases of Jewish businesses that have been targeted and then police have clarified that it was made up. In some cases, it was the owner of the business themselves doing it for whatever reason. The most recent example was in Winnipeg, I believe. You can Google it. Winnipeg Jewish business that's targeted. And it was the business owners themselves.

[Interviewer]

I know that story. And you're correct that it's the most recent example. It's also the only example of that happening in Canada.

[Jesse Brown]

And it happened in 2019.

[Interviewer]

I couldn't find any other reported case of Jews faking an anti Semitic attack here in Canada.

[Moez Zaman]

Okay. There are, for instance, examples of people sabotaging pro Palestine demonstrations and doing things like Sig Heils for the purpose of causing a problem.

[Interviewer]

I don't believe that Hamoud, who we saw making a Sig Heil.

[Moez Zaman]

Not him, not him. I'm talking about other instances.

[Interviewer]

But he has since, by the way, in terms of connections to the people who show up at your demonstration. He has since posted this video in front of Anne Frank Public School.

[Moez Zaman]

Yes, I saw that.

[Interviewer]

Making, I guess. How would you describe this expression? He's kind of look like a tough guy, I guess a very menacing expression.

[Moez Zaman]

Yeah, I don't think he's very intimidating looking. I wouldn't be scared of such a guy, but I don't like this guy. I don't associate with him. I've never personally met him.

[Interviewer]

I guess what I'm saying here is that we have a guy who has thrown the sea kale up at one of your demonstrations. And he's also being removed by police from a Jewish community center. And now here he is in front of the Anne Frank Public school.

[Moez Zaman]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Making political statements against Israel while wearing a symbol of solidarity with Palestinians. So what? This has to do with a kid's public school. Can you understand why this would make people very uncomfortable?

[Moez Zaman]

100%. Yeah. And like I said before, there are a lot of people that do a lot of stupid, harmful things to our movement. The reason why I. And I'll get To your question about why do we specifically show up at, sorry, Bathurst and Shepherd? The reason why I show up anywhere, anywhere at all is because when I see the videos of children that are being bombed and starved and having limbs amputated, I see the face of my own three year old. That's why I show up to be very real. But why are you there with anybody listening? Yeah. So I will get to that point. That's the reason why this movement exists to begin with. It is important to clarify that even before we discuss why there specifically, we have to know what we're doing. That's why we're there. Now, why do we show up at Bathurst and Shepherd? Or why do we show up at a synagogue? Or why do we show up to places where Jews are known to be? Right.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Moez Zaman]

That's what you're asking?

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Moez Zaman]

So it's a valid question. Number one, the reason why we show up. Can I also talk about the synagogues? Because I think that's also relevant because.

[Interviewer]

You'Ve also demonstrated at a synagogue.

[Moez Zaman]

At synagogues, yes, at two synagogues. So the point is not that it's a synagogue. So for instance, we demonstrated at the synagogue Bates Synagogue at Bathurst and Clark street in Thornhill. So this synagogue was hosting an event with Israeli real estate and law firms selling land in occupied Palestinian territory. I have the brochure on my phone. So when we show up at the synagogue, it's not because I want to disturb Jewish people who are trying to have solemn religious observances? Absolutely not. I respect Judaism as a religion. I respect Jewish people that are practicing Judaism that go to the synagogue to read the Torah or whatever it is that they do in there. I have absolutely no problem with that. The reason why we showed up at the synagogue specifically is because of that event that was taking place.

[Interviewer]

And what about Bathurst and Shepherd?

[Moez Zaman]

And at Bathurst and Shepherd, we have a group of people that are gathering there every Sunday to celebrate what I consider to be a Holocaust in the 21st century. So we are there in a counter demonstration against that type of a support for a fascist ideology.

[Interviewer]

Were you present at the demonstrations on.

[Moez Zaman]

The bridge, 401 Avenue? I was there once.

[Interviewer]

At least there was no pro Israel protest there.

[Moez Zaman]

I just showed up. So I can't speak to why he picked that area. But you did ask me about Bathurst and Shepherd and I did kind of elaborate as to. Because it's a question that we're asked, why are you at a synagogue? As an example?

[Interviewer]

I heard because they had this real estate event, not because it was a synagogue. Now, we could have a conversation about. Every church and mosque has a number of events. People mourn there, people get married there, people do religious observance and then people make political speeches. But in many other cases, we don't demonstrate at churches or mosques.

[Moez Zaman]

Here's the thing. If a mosque has an event to celebrate isis, I will tell the cops and you guys should all show up, and I will be there. I will be there with everybody else to demonstrate against that.

[Interviewer]

We may disagree, but I do understand your point of view.

[Moez Zaman]

Exactly.

[Jesse Brown]

I understand.

[Moez Zaman]

I don't expect you to agree with what I'm saying.

[Interviewer]

When it comes to Bathurst and Shepherd, you're saying you're there because that's where people are celebrating Israel.

[Moez Zaman]

Exactly.

[Interviewer]

The thing that I most wanted to speak with you about is that the majority of the Jewish people who live in that neighborhood don't come to those demonstrations.

[Moez Zaman]

Yes, that's right.

[Interviewer]

They just live there.

[Moez Zaman]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And this is a community that has been targeted. Their businesses have been targeted, their children's schools have been targeted.

[Moez Zaman]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

What you are saying to the everyday.

[Jesse Brown]

Jews who live in that neighborhood who do not show up to the pro Israel protest.

[Interviewer]

If I understand everything you've told me today is, yes, you have been targeted. It's awful. It shouldn't happen. The police should stop it. And yes, this demonstration may include a red triangle which is used to point out targets for violence. It's also a demonstration that includes Hamas glorification, which is what we both agreed that chair represents. It is also a demonstration in which a guy is throwing up a sig hail. But Jewish citizens of Toronto, this is not an anti Semitic demonstration.

[Moez Zaman]

So I disagree with the way you set that up for a number of reasons, the first of which is when it comes to the red triangle, this is a symbol that is directed against the Israeli armed forces.

[Interviewer]

I've had that red triangle placed above my head on social media posts. I knew what it meant.

[Moez Zaman]

Who did that?

[Interviewer]

Who did that? A pro Palestinian.

[Moez Zaman]

Well, whoever did that is a donkey. I mean, are you gonna pick up a weapon and put a bullet in a child's head? Absolutely not.

[Interviewer]

It doesn't make it less disconcerting to face what looked to me like a death threat when you are on the receiving end of the bricks through synagogue windows, the gunshots at schools, the arsons of businesses.

[Moez Zaman]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

And then there are people in your neighborhood using iconography that glorifies Hamas throwing up a Nazi salute. You are asking for people to make distinctions that I'm not sure it's reasonable to ask people to make. I think it's reasonable for people to feel menaced and unsafe when that happens in their neighborhood.

[Moez Zaman]

I understand that point. You're saying I am participating in a demonstration, and while I personally may not support Hamas and antisemitism, there are people present who do that. And therefore it's reasonable for the Jewish community to feel threatened by everybody because it's hard for them to make that distinction. That's one thing that you're telling me. But then you're telling me that when you ask the pro Zionist people, well, do you support the killing of children? And they say, no, that's not why we're there. We're there because we support the hostages and we support peace and democracy and all that stuff. And you're asking me to not make a distinction because.

[Interviewer]

No, I agree completely. I think that if you were to say, how am I supposed to know which of you is just there because you care about your relative who's a hostage and which of you is here because you think that what is happening in Gaza is just. I can't make that distinction. It all looks like support for the Israeli. I would say that's reasonable.

[Moez Zaman]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

I would say that that's a reasonable thing. So similarly, I think that to imagine the people who live in that neighborhood, they shouldn't feel menaced or unsafe or terrorized by this because they should be able to tell that even though you're there in front of the sinwar seat, you don't support Hamas. That might be an unreasonable expectation to have.

[Moez Zaman]

So I take your point on that. So what I would propose is, and what we have proposed since the beginning is end both demonstrations. End the pro Israel, pro idf, pro Holocaust, pro fascism demonstration on the west of Bathurst and end the pro, seemingly pro Hamas demonstration on the east of Bathurst. And both of them. And then nobody will feel terrorized. Isn't that fair?

[Interviewer]

You would no longer demonstrate there if they would stop.

[Moez Zaman]

If the day that stops on the west of Bathurst, we're gone. That's the whole point. That's the reason why we're there at Bathurst and Shepherd as a counter demonstration.

[Interviewer]

But what does that achieve as opposed to demonstrating Israel at the consulate? How does it help Palestine and the Palestinian cause? Are you demonstrating against Jews in Toronto who you disagree with, or are you demonstrating against Israel?

[Moez Zaman]

Here's the thing. The nature of political activism is that you don't see the effect of your actions right away. And it's very discouraging. And all political activists have to deal with this challenge, why are we going there? By me showing up at Bathurst and Shepherd, how will it stop children whose limbs are being amputated without anesthesia? The honest answer is it won't stop it.

[Interviewer]

But the question, that's a different question. Whether or not there's a point in demonstrating at all all around the world is one question. Yes, and I understand the reason why. Perhaps if there is enough of a cacophony around the world and there's enough condemnation of Israel, maybe it will have an effect. That's not the question I'm asking. I'm asking why are you demonstrating at Bathurst and Shepherd? As a countermeasure to supporters of Israel. It almost feels like your target is your neighbor as opposed to a foreign state.

[Moez Zaman]

I understand how it can seem that way. I would say no. Personally, I don't care about the individuals who show up on the west of Bathurst, the pro Zionist camp. I'm not interested in any of them and I'm not interested in them as a collective. The reason why we show up is because we're trying to make a point that if you're going to come out here to celebrate a genocide, we are going to come out here to express our opposition to that kind of a thing happening.

[Interviewer]

And if that has an impact on the community, that's not your fault.

[Moez Zaman]

If it has an impact in what sense? You mean that Jews that live in the proximity of that area will feel threatened by our presence over there?

[Interviewer]

Well, of course they do.

[Moez Zaman]

Well, I would say it's not directed against the Jews of that community. But you're pointing out, and you're right, that they have no way of distinguishing between what I'm telling you right now and for instance, some of the iconography and the symbols that are physically present. And I understand if that's the point. If I understand you correctly, I get that 100%. So my solution to that would be end both demonstrations.

[Interviewer]

I guess I'll ask you finally. You have been, I think, generous in your interpretation or an analysis of activists becoming too passionate, maybe being a bit young and stupid, saying things that I think we agree crossed the line.

[Jesse Brown]

And just for clarity, we're not only.

[Interviewer]

Talking about younger airheaded members who lose.

[Jesse Brown]

Control of their emotions. Navid is an older man who you.

[Interviewer]

Have identified as a leader who has said that tropes of the blood libel the Jews killed Christ, they're cursed people to the question of is this a movement about what Israel is doing or is this an anti Jewish hate movement? We've seen many instances of anti Jewish hate, which I accept you do not share those feelings. But my question to you is, have you at any point in these demonstrations, which are occurring on a weekly basis said to a person who is putting up a Nazi salute, get out of here and don't come back. Or who has brought a chair that does glorify Hamas? I don't want them calling us pro Hamas. Get this out of here. I don't want any photographs of me in front of it. Or when you find out that Navid brings up tropes of Jewish Christ killers, say, I don't want to be thought of as an anti Semite, get the hell out of here. Because at a certain point, if you are around anti Semites and Jew haters, then that is what your movement is.

[Moez Zaman]

Understood. I know this is not the topic you're trying to get at, but about the same Christ killers, I mean, are you familiar with the Gospels?

[Interviewer]

I don't care about the Bible.

[Moez Zaman]

Yeah, so neither. I don't believe in the Bible, but I don't believe in the historicity of the Bible as such. But the question of, were Jews in the Roman Empire involved in the so called crucifixion of Christ? I don't even believe that there was a crucifixion.

[Interviewer]

Who cares about any of this? We live here together in this city. Right. I care much more about the people who live in the city and how we treat each other.

[Moez Zaman]

Absolutely.

[Interviewer]

Than things happening in history or frankly in other parts of the world that we have very little control over.

[Moez Zaman]

No, no, understood. I accept that 100%. Right. About that. One thing I will say is the answer is yes. Yes, we do try our best to kick them out. It's a public space, so we can't stop anybody from coming. There was someone that showed up at Bathurst and Shepherd and this guy is a radical, anti Semite, extremist. And we contacted the cops and informed them about this dude and said, this guy is not with us, we do not want him. And apparently he has a record. I have called out people in our group who said things that could definitely be construed as anti Semitic. And I said, look, dude, we're here against racism. We're not here to promote racism. I have absolutely no animosity towards Jewish people. And we have to make it clear that we are here not to support. I'm not here because I'm pro Palestinian. I hate that term. I'm here because I'm pro human being. It's just a pro human cause, that's all. It is. Now, what you're telling me is there are at the very least unintended consequences. And I agree with you. I understand what you're saying. If members of that community feel threatened. That's not what I'm there for.

[Interviewer]

I just want to interrupt the notion of feeling threatened. If your kid's school had gunshots, fired at it on three separate occasions, I think you have been threatened.

[Moez Zaman]

No, no, absolutely. But that's why I asked you who's guilty of doing that? Is it people from our movement?

[Interviewer]

Whether or not that person was standing at your demonstration or not, I don't think is really important. If you are a person who values the sanctity of human life and the safety and security of your neighbors, then you can have a compassionate response to people understood who've had their kids school shot at by menacing strangers in the middle of the night.

[Moez Zaman]

So what you're saying is members of the Jewish community in and around Bathurst and Shepherd have been threatened. Now, let's say the perpetrators of those acts of violence had nothing to do with our movement, as far as we know. Unless you can tell me someone who was convicted of shooting up that private Jewish school was a pro Palestinian. Until that type of information and even whether or not that's the case, that has happened. But I understand your counterpoint that when you introduce these types of symbols into it, it's not unre reasonable to surmise that some dude just walking his baby down the street on Bathurst might obviously associate those two things. That's your point, if I understand you.

[Interviewer]

That's pretty much it. Yeah. There have been, I think at this point, seven credible mass casualty plots that have been thwarted by the cops. There's one in Ottawa where there was a pro Israel demonstration. They arrested a kid who had an explosive device who was plotting to blow it up. And then, you know, the Aldidis not far from your demonstration and they were in a hotel room filming a video about how they were going to go kill a bunch of Jews also on that Baptist corridor.

[Moez Zaman]

That's very disappointing.

[Pro-Israel Demonstrator]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So, you know, it's a very hard thing to determine the relationship between. You know, you've got legitimate demonstrations, you've got demonstrations that cross the line. Then you've got people throwing rocks into windows. Then you've got people who actually are going to. So when somebody says, I appreciate that, to you, globalizing intifada is an ideological concept to other people understood, it's let's go do something.

[Moez Zaman]

Yeah, no, that makes sense. I can't push back on you. With that. If some people associate it that way, or if a lot of people associate it that way, based on these precedents that you're referring to, that's understandable. I can't say that's an unreasonable thing to do. My only point would be that's not enough of a reason to tell me to stop doing what I'm doing, because what I'm doing is also extremely important.

[Interviewer]

If I were in your shoes, I guess I would feel like I'm going to do everything I can to make sure that if one of these violent maniacs actually does kill a bunch of Jews in Canada, nobody can connect that to me. If you don't want to be confused with an anti Semite, it's not good to be standing next to a guy who's throwing up a Nazi salute. You know.

[Moez Zaman]

It'S a fair point. The guy with the Sieg Heil, that's a baboon. That's far beyond the pale.

[Interviewer]

Oh, go back to Europe.

[Moez Zaman]

That's not enough of a reason to tell me to stop demonstrating. You're asking me to be silent because of the unintended consequences that relate to something else that happened that has nothing to do with me.

[Local Resident]

No.

[Moez Zaman]

That's a big ask.

[Interviewer]

No, I'm not asking you to do that at all.

[Jesse Brown]

I guess I'm.

[Moez Zaman]

No, no, sorry, I don't mean you personally are telling me that. I'm saying that's the position that you're putting on the table and asking me to address.

[Interviewer]

Not really, no.

[Moez Zaman]

Well, you did say that. You said these people feel threatened. Don't you think that the Yahya Sinwar chair and all that stuff is going to fuel the flames? I use the expression fuel the flames, not you. Of that feeling of insecurity. That is what you said.

[Interviewer]

What I'm asking you is, does their safety and security matter?

[Moez Zaman]

Absolutely it matters.

[Interviewer]

In which case, is this the appropriate place for a demonstration like this? And then the other thing that I've been asking through many, many questions, which you've been impatient with, is to the extent that you do not want to be confused with a racist Jew hater, what is the level of responsibility you have to distinguish yourself from those people?

[Moez Zaman]

Absolutely.

[Interviewer]

And you have accepted there is some level where you will say, we don't want you here and we're calling the cops. Yeah.

[Moez Zaman]

So again, it's a public space. Now somebody decides to show up with a Nazi flag, I can't tackle him to the ground and burn that flag. Even if I would like to. I can't do that. Right. What we can do is tell the cops this is incitement, and that person can be arrested, and they probably will be. Right. So there's only so much control that we have in this type of a situation given the nature of what's taking place. And the same thing can be true about the west of Bathurst. There are some unsavory things that have happened on that side which we haven't discussed.

[Interviewer]

They're not going to somebody else's neighborhood.

[Moez Zaman]

Again. If someone holds a picture of a terrorist named Baruch Goldstein, it doesn't become less offensive because it's a Jewish neighborhood than if you were to do it in a Muslim neighborhood. Right?

[Interviewer]

Yeah. But fewer Muslim kids and elderly people are gonna have to walk past that and wonder if they're okay, if these people mean them harm.

[Moez Zaman]

Okay, granted, I'll give you that. Yes. Our intention in organizing these counter demonstrations at Bathurst and Shepherd has always been to shut down the demonstration on the west of Bathurst.

[Interviewer]

How's that going?

[Moez Zaman]

Not very well.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, Moes, thank you very much.

[Moez Zaman]

Thank you.

[Jesse Brown]

This past October, following the release of the last 20 living hostages by Hamas, the pro Israel demonstrators gathered at Bathurst and Shepherd one last time to celebrate. The next week, the anti Zionist protesters did in fact come back. Only this time, they held their demonstration on both sides of Bathurst Street. They had new signs made for the occasion which read, even this corner was not promised to them 3,000 years ago. The next weekend, once again, there were no pro Israel demonstrators left at Bathurst and Shepherd for the anti Zionists to direct their chance to. And so they marched onto a nearby residential street and aimed their remarks at the Jews who live there right at their doorsteps.

[Anti-Zionist Protester]

Genocide. No more. You don't own this. This is not occupied Palestine.

[Moez Zaman]

Okay, yeah, just.

[Interviewer]

Just go.

[Anti-Zionist Protester]

You teach your kids how to kill babies?

[Jesse Brown]

Yeah.

[Anti-Zionist Protester]

A Zionist.

[Moez Zaman]

Zionist.

[Anti-Zionist Protester]

Was this probably 3,000 years ago? Guys, guys, I have a question.

[Moez Zaman]

What do you call.

[Anti-Zionist Protester]

Call a Zionist?

[Moez Zaman]

Karen.

[Local Resident]

I have nothing to do with another foreign country.

[Moez Zaman]

They have issues with it.

[Local Resident]

It's been over two years. It's been loud. Kids can't sleep during the day. We have nothing to do with whatever your issues are, okay?

[Interviewer]

That attitude is only going to ensure.

[Moez Zaman]

I stay here all night long.

[Jesse Brown]

There is no equivalent of this in any American city. No American Jewish neighborhood where anti Zionists congregate to protest every week. So maybe it's time to finally answer the question, why here? Why are the slurs and the threats and the crimes so much worse in Canada than in just about any other Western nation. That's on our next episode. This episode is made possible by the generous support of the Bissell Family Foundation, George Berger, Dan DeBeau, Daniel Klaas, Nanette Okun, Leslie Scanlon, Marjorie Skolnick, the York School, Lee Zentner and others. This series is not yet fully funded. We want to be able to complete it.

[Interviewer]

Once it is complete, we want to.

[Jesse Brown]

Promote it properly to make sure that it gets heard by as many people as possible and by different kinds of people, younger listeners, not just Jewish ones. We also want to bring this series to campuses across Canada for town hall conversations about how this conflict has created fear and harm in our university and college communities. We want to host conversations about how everyone can work together to restore safety. To do all of that, we need financial support. Canadaland has again been losing supporters who say they are canceling because of this series.

[Interviewer]

We need to replace that revenue and.

[Jesse Brown]

More in order for this project to have the impact that we think it can. Those who donate to this podcast will receive a tax deductible donation receipt through our project partner, the Canadian Jewish News, a registered journalism organization with the CRA. Contributing is easy. Just email me [e-mail] I spell my name J E S S E. I'll take you through it. What Is Happening Here is a co production of Canadaland Podcasts and the Canadian Jewish News. This episode was written and reported by me, Jesse Brown Research and story editing by Kate Minsky, original music by so called sound design, mixing and mastering by Caleb Thompson editorial input from Michael Freeman. This episode relied on video documentation of the protests at Bathurst and Shepherd, filmed by many sources, but none more than Kareem Assad and her videographer Lee. Special thanks to them and to Jonathan Rothman of the cjn. We've put links to statistics and sources cited in today's episode in the show Notes. Thank you to Stephen Marsh, Jonathan Rothman, Mark Musselman and the entire team here at Canadaland for their input and their support. The next episode of what Is Happening Here will be available next week, wherever you get your podcasts. To become a Canadaland supporter, go to canadaland.com join thank you for listening.