#5 Why Here?

Summary

Podcast Summary: What Is Happening Here | Canadaland Investigates

Episode #5: "Why Here?"

Release Date: December 10, 2025
Host: Jesse Brown

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Overview

This episode confronts a disturbing reality: Canadian Jews are now nine times more likely to be victims of hate crimes compared to their American counterparts. Jesse Brown investigates the surge in antisemitism since October 7, 2023, in “a country known for politeness, diversity, and social democracy.” The episode interrogates competing explanations—governmental failures, policing strategies, and demographic dynamics—while combining statistics, on-the-ground testimony, and social science research. Through interviews with politicians, academics, Jewish Canadians, and Muslim community members, the show explores whether anti-Zionism is being misclassified as antisemitism, why Jewish Canadians find themselves increasingly under threat, and what can be done about it.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dramatic Rise in Antisemitism in Canada

• Initial Context:
  • Canadian Jews feel less safe since October 7, 2023.
  • Antisemitism is no longer a fringe issue; it’s “become institutional and mainstream” (Aviva Klompus, 00:15).

2. Three Theories for the Surge

Theory 1: Government Failure

• Lack of Political Will and Leadership
  • Politicians across all levels—federal, provincial, municipal—are reluctant to confront antisemitism directly.
  • “Western democratic values, the ones that Canada holds dear, are under threat from radical ideologues and a weak leadership right across the board...” (Aviva Klompus, 02:36).
  • “Everybody's blaming everyone else... For this to continue on now over 18 months.” (James Pasternak, 04:35)
• Fear & Optics
  • Politicians and officials fear backlash for supporting Jews or Israel.
  • “That to be with a Jew ... is toxic because then they'll be ostracized or demonized or lose their job. They're afraid. Elected officials are afraid. And I would say that a city that is gripped by fear has no future.” (James Pasternak, 06:38)
• Municipal Inaction
  • Jewish neighborhoods face protests and hate speech, yet authorities fail to deliver meaningful protection.

Theory 2: Police Inaction & Prioritization

• Not a Law Problem, But an Enforcement Problem
  • “We have lots of laws... but we have an enforcement problem in this country.” (Melissa Lanzman, 08:51)
• Police Reluctance:
  • Instances of police standing by passively, or even appearing to support protestors (e.g., delivering refreshments to occupiers).
  • Viral incidents, like officers bringing snacks/coffee to protestors and making apologies after public backlash (10:56–11:50).
  • “Police bias against Jews is not a reason that City Councilor James Pasternak cites... he has other thoughts.” (12:17)
  • Instead, police explain that arrests during large mobs are difficult, citing crowd control and officer safety (13:14–14:04).
• Main Police Strategy: De-escalation
  • “The goal is not to arrest people calling for the genocide of Jews. The goal for that day is de-escalation. Keep the two sides apart and send everyone home.” (James Pasternak, 14:31)
  • This often leads to visible Jews being asked to move along, in the name of public safety, even if they’re not provoking violence (18:37–20:03).
• Long-term Impact:
  • Repeated de-escalation without enforcement enables persistent antisemitic incidents.

Theory 3: Demographic and Cultural Changes—Rise of Antisemitism Among Canadian Muslims

• Integration & Sentiment
  • Growth of Muslim population in Canada; many come from regions with ingrained antisemitism.
  • “There are many newcomers in this country who are not integrated... from countries where anti Semitism is culturally and religiously ingrained.” (Aviva Klompus, 21:02)
• Statistical Evidence—Interview with Professor Robert Brim (Retired Sociologist):
  • “The Canadian population as a whole has one of the lowest levels of anti Jewish sentiment in the world.” (Jesse Brown, 25:37)
  • However, “the percentage of people with negative attitudes towards Jews was four times higher among Canadian Muslims than... the general non Jewish population.” (Aviva Klompus, 28:26)
  • About 48% of Canadian Muslims surveyed expressed at least slightly negative attitudes towards Jews (28:43).
• Nuances & Cautions
  • Brown is careful to separate sentiment from behavior.
  • “Dr. Brim’s research is a record of people’s feelings and their opinions, not their behavior... his statistics were collected at a time of especially heightened emotion.” (30:11–31:31)
• Positive Finding:
  • Having a Jewish acquaintance or positive personal experience eliminates the sentiment gap between Muslims and other groups (35:39–35:57).
  • “One of the things that the Jewish community must do systematically is to try to build bridges with groups that are antagonistic toward us.” (Aviva Klompus, 35:57)

3. Distinguishing Antisemitism from Anti-Zionism

• Research finds most left-wing anti-Israel activists can distinguish between anti-Israel sentiment and antisemitism, but “for Muslims, the correlation between negative attitudes toward Israel and negative attitude towards Jews was highest...” (Aviva Klompus, 30:11).

4. Data on Antisemitic Sentiment vs. Behavior

• Hate crimes are rising; sentiments haven’t shifted much on aggregate, but behaviors (“actions that people take against Jews”) have dramatically increased (26:24).
• Reporter’s Caution: Hate crime reports require proven motivation, dispelling the notion that Jewish groups overreport (32:06–32:44).

5. Conclusion: The Paradox of Policy Success

• Government Response to Protest Demands
  • Canada has halted arms shipments to Israel, called for a ceasefire, recognized Palestine—essentially conceding to many anti-Zionist demands (39:06).
• Why Target Jews?
  • In Canada, without large-scale direct political targets (like in the US), activists redirect rage toward visible Jewish individuals, businesses, and neighborhoods.
  • “The reason why anti Zionism in Canada is constantly targeting everyday Jewish people is not in spite of the fact that Canada has met demands of anti Zionists. It's because of it.” (Jesse Brown, 42:38)
  • Complicity becomes ever more tenuous; “the hunt for complicit parties... has proven endless.”

6. Paths Forward

• Building Intercommunal Relationships
  • Personal relationships are key: research shows prejudice collapses with direct positive contact (35:39–35:57).
  • Dr. Shirazi’s interfaith work is highlighted as a model for progress (36:45–38:00).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Current Reality:

  • “This is a society that is falling apart.” – James Pasternak (00:08)
  • “In Canada, antisemitism is not a fringe thing anymore. It's become institutional and... mainstream.” – Aviva Klompus (00:15)

• On Political Fear:

  • “To be with a Jew... is toxic, because then they'll be ostracized or demonized or lose their job. They're afraid. Elected officials are afraid.” – James Pasternak (06:38)

• On Police Practice:

  • “The goal is not to arrest people calling for the genocide of Jews. The goal for that day is de escalation. Keep the two sides apart and send everyone home... that is defined as success.” – James Pasternak (14:31)

• On Sentiment Data:

  • “The Canadian population as a whole has one of the lowest levels of anti Jewish sentiment in the world.” – Jesse Brown (25:37)

• On Muslim-Canadian Sentiment:

  • “About half of Canadian Muslims expressed at least slightly negative attitudes towards Jews.” – Aviva Klompus (28:43)

• On Universities:

  • “Younger people, and people in universities in particular tend to have more negative attitudes towards Jews.” – Aviva Klompus (34:09)
  • “That does track with one conception... universities are hotbeds of both anti Zionist and anti Semitic indoctrination. That is an argument that one hears.” – Jesse Brown (34:24)

• On Intergroup Contact:

  • “Just having a Jewish acquaintance or one positive experience with a Jew was enough to change the opinions of Muslim Canadians to the point where their level of antisemitic sentiment was no greater than anyone else's.” – Jesse Brown (35:39)

• On the Policy Paradox:

  • “The reason why anti Zionism in Canada is constantly targeting everyday Jewish people is not in spite of the fact that Canada has met demands of anti Zionists. It's because of it.” – Jesse Brown (42:38)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:08–00:28: Personal testimony: why Jewish Canadians feel unsafe
• 02:24–06:38: Theory 1: Government failure and fear affecting leadership
• 08:39–17:41: Theory 2: Police reluctance, “de-escalation” policies, and enforcement gaps
• 20:38–35:39: Theory 3: Muslim-Canadian demographics, integration, and sentiment stats
• 34:09–34:59: Data on universities and youth attitudes
• 35:39–38:21: The power of intercommunal exchange and bridge-building
• 39:06–42:38: “Policy success” paradox: anti-Zionist protest demands being met leads to targeting Jews
• 42:38–End: Summary and lead-in to next episode

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Overall Tone

The host combines rigorous skepticism, empathy, and a sense of moral urgency. There is a persistent effort to challenge simplistic explanations, foreground data, and feature the voices of those most affected—while highlighting the vital roles of dialogue and understanding as Canada contends with growing divisions.

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Summary for Listeners

This episode analyzes why antisemitism in Canada has surged to shocking levels, exploring evasion of responsibility by politicians, police policies that prioritize crowd management over enforcement, and the demographic realities that shape attitudes and behaviors in a multicultural nation. It balances uncomfortable statistical truths with the hope that, through personal contact and bridge-building, these tensions can be overcome. The episode concludes that the targeting of Jewish Canadians is not despite, but because of, Canadian policy moves that have given the protest movement little left to protest—except individual Jews themselves.

Transcript

[Jesse Brown]

Canadaland funded by you.

[James Pasternak]

What's going on in this country is scary and a disgrace. This is a society that is falling apart.

[Aviva Klompus]

In Canada, antisemitism is not a fringe thing anymore. It's become institutional and it's become extremely mainstream. Canada has unraveled since October 7th.

[Jesse Brown]

It's been maybe one of the worst.

[Aviva Klompus]

Places in the west to be a Jew. Canadian Jews feel there's no political will actually to defend Canada.

[Jesse Brown]

On our last two episodes, I sat down with anti Zionists to try to understand what they believe and why they behave as they do, like the wider anti Zionist movement. Both of the people I spoke to contended that they stand against racism and have no desire to harm Jews in their struggle for Palestinians. And both of them acknowledged eventually that to some extent the harm done to Jews by some in their movement is real. I think there is language used that.

[James Pasternak]

Crosses a line sometimes that could increase anti Semitism.

[Jesse Brown]

The unintended consequences of our demonstrations fuel.

[Aviva Klompus]

The flame of that insecurity.

[Jesse Brown]

But both of them ultimately decided that is not enough of a reason for them to change what they are doing. As a Jew, I feel I have an obligation to be organizing protests.

[Aviva Klompus]

I would like to see more protests.

[Jesse Brown]

Outside of Jewish institutions.

[Aviva Klompus]

That's not enough of a reason to.

[James Pasternak]

Stop doing what I'm doing.

[Jesse Brown]

That has nothing to do with me. At a certain point, it's time to stop debating the obvious. I'm done arguing. If it's happening here, it is. And today I'm going to try to understand why. Why is post 10-7- Jew hatred from anti Zionists so extreme here in Canada? What you'll hear today are three theories and one conclusion. I'm Jesse Brown, and this is what is happening.

Theory number one. It's because of Canada's government.

Here is conservative politician Melissa Lansman talking to podcaster and author Aviva Klompus.

[Aviva Klompus]

Western democratic values, the ones that Canada holds dear, are under threat from radical ideologues and a weak leadership right across the board in every single government and in every single institution. If you don't have a leadership in this country that can go to a podium and say that this is just wildly unacceptable, it stops here. Then you've got no starting point. It's things like universities that have allowed the antisemitism to flourish and as a result have allowed the cesspool of antisemitism to happen on campuses. I think over the course of a decade of Justin Trudeau being in power, that vision coincides directly with the normalization of antisemitism. I don't see it from any level of government.

[Jesse Brown]

Not federal, not provincial, not municipal.

[Aviva Klompus]

Is there something that I'm missing?

[Jesse Brown]

Let's focus on the municipal. I hear their point about ideology from the top. The unwillingness of our former prime minister to defend solid Western values, Canadian values. I've been hearing that kind of talk for years, often in arguments against immigration. It's always struck me as a dog whistle.

Whatever the subtext, it's a difficult argument to test. Does the guy who smashes the windows of a synagogue actually take his cues from Prime Minister Justin Trudeau? Might he have been persuaded to do otherwise if Trudeau had given a strong speech in defense of Western values? The influence of the Prime Minister's ideology on Canadian activists, vandals and criminals is a hard thing to gauge. But what I might be able to find out is why the Jewish neighborhood up the street has been unable to get any kind of protection from angry, disruptive protests that repeatedly cross the line into hate speech. And so I asked the city councillor who represents that neighborhood, James Pasternak. Turns out he's just as frustrated by the situation as his constituents.

[James Pasternak]

Look, I've spoken to police, I've spoken to the Attorney general's office, I've spoken with the mayor's office, I've spoken to community leaders and the backroom finger pointing is unbelievable. Everybody's blaming everyone else for this to continue on now over 18 months. And everybody I speak to knows it's wrong, but they're blaming everybody else for not dealing with it. For instance, police are deeply frustrated that a lot of the charges they lay are being dropped by the Ministry of the Attorney General at the province. The mayor says this is a police matter. The police say we need the political backing to deal with this.

[Jesse Brown]

Counselor Pasternak agrees that what's been happening in his writing is connected to the things that Justin Trudeau has said.

[James Pasternak]

I mean, our former prime minister who said he was going to arrest the Prime Minister of Israel if he comes to Canada, that is not helpful. A prime minister who said we're going to launch an arms embargo against Israel is not helpful in. And a country that continually votes against Israel and joins some of the most heinous regimes in the world in demonizing Israel. That is all a part of a piece that incites and encourages much of what we see on the streets. There has not been the political backing necessary to bring this under control from the mayor. I've gone to a lot of conferences, and the mayor has sent me to these conferences, summits, of mayors who are fighting antisemitism. Those mayors who say no to this, they get it done. They back their police. They use their state attorneys to prosecute. They use the rule of law to protect society, and at the same time, they're able to balance the right to assembly.

[Jesse Brown]

So why don't our politicians do this here in Canada? Are they afraid of the optics?

[James Pasternak]

Yeah. So that is the sum of all fears. That to be with a Jew, that to support a Jew, that to support a synagogue, to speak out for Israel, to go to Israel, is toxic because then they'll be ostracized or demonized or lose their job. They're afraid. Elected officials are afraid. And I would say that a city that is gripped by fear has no future.

[Jesse Brown]

Dr. Eisha Shirazi is a former principal of a Muslim day school, and she is a community volunteer in Ottawa. She visits school groups with a rabbi, hosting interfaith conversations in the hopes of promoting tolerance and acceptance. She agrees that politicians might be reluctant to show too much support for Jewish Canadians. I think politicians are in a really tight spot, and I'll tell you why.

[Aviva Klompus]

I think they're in a tight spot. This is a tricky situation for them to navigate.

[Jesse Brown]

There's a diverse number of people who are really concerned about Israeli policy.

[Aviva Klompus]

And so they're accountable to those people as well. Right?

[Jesse Brown]

They're accountable to families who are desperately.

[Aviva Klompus]

Trying to get their loved ones here because their loved ones are caught up in a war, in a conflict that.

[Jesse Brown]

You know, they're worried about their loved ones.

[Aviva Klompus]

They're accountable to those people too.

[Jesse Brown]

Here again is City Councilor James Pasternak.

[James Pasternak]

It will blow over. Has not worked. Constructive engagement has not worked. Strategic ambivalence. Has not worked. Passive engagement. Has not worked. These things have not worked. And police feel they're not getting the political support they need. Municipal licensing. Why aren't you enforcing our bylaws? That's the police job.

[Jesse Brown]

Theory number two. The problem is with the police.

[Aviva Klompus]

We don't have a law problem in this country.

[Jesse Brown]

Once again, Member of Parliament Melissa Lanzman.

[Aviva Klompus]

We have lots of laws on the books that say what's okay and what is against the law. And the criminal code is very, very clear on it. But we have an enforcement problem in this country.

[Jesse Brown]

This is journalist Terry Glavin. And what we have seen, a 670% increase in anti Semitic incidents. A lot of Jews don't even bother to call the cops anymore.

[Aviva Klompus]

So we have, like, very, very specific laws within the Canadian criminal code. If you want to look them up sections 318 and 319 that talk about exactly what are the penalties, what are the criminal sanctions against anyone who would use hate speech. We virtually have no one getting in trouble for it.

[Jesse Brown]

In December of 2023, a video taken during a raucous protest at the Eaton Center Mall in downtown Toronto showed masked anti Zionist protesters brazenly threatening to kill a man who had somehow offended them in front of at least five police officers who are seen standing by passively taking no action.

[Aviva Klompus]

Deep.

[Jesse Brown]

No, no, no.

[Aviva Klompus]

We're not gonna hurt him.

[James Pasternak]

Free Palestine.

[Aviva Klompus]

Free.

[Jesse Brown]

Free Palestine.

[James Pasternak]

All right, guys, guys, guys, enough.

[Jesse Brown]

That video is one of many that have circulated seeming to depict Canadian police refusing to enforce laws broken right under their noses. Then came the videos that suggest that police may not be merely ignoring lawlessness from protesters, but perhaps supporting it. In January of 2024, Toronto's Chief of police apologized after a video posted by the lawyer Karima Saad went viral. It showed Toronto police officers delivering a box of Tim Hortons coffee, along with a snack in a paper bag, possibly a donut, to anti Zionist protesters who are occupying an overpass in a Jewish neighborhood. How did. How did you get coffee from the police?

[Aviva Klompus]

Not the police.

[Jesse Brown]

Someone has brought it for us, but the police won't let them in.

[Aviva Klompus]

So the police are now becoming our little messengers.

[Jesse Brown]

If you didn't quite catch that, that was one of the protesters saying that now the police have become our little messengers. One of the cops is seen smiling at the protesters as he hands over the refreshments. Then, In March of 2025, Toronto Police again apologized to the Jewish community. This apology was about an episode of an official Toronto police podcast. It's called Project Olive Branch. The episode in question was a conversation between two Muslim police officers who spoke approvingly about how the October 7 Hamas massacre has brought young people in Toronto back to Islam. A lot of people after October 7th started learning about Islam. They did. Yeah, there have been a lot of reverts.

[Aviva Klompus]

Just keeps coming.

[Jesse Brown]

But the amount of people that are reverting to Islam is unbelievable. And they're just, I guess, through education, right, they're actually educating themselves and saying, let me learn about this religion. What are these accusations that they're saying about Islam? And let me learn about it myself and figure out, hey, is it actually true or not? According to Warren Kinsella, a commentator and columnist, that podcast revealed what many had long suspected about Toronto police and their failure to protect Jews. It explains an awful lot of what we've seen since October 7th. Businesses, Jewish businesses being firebombed, nobody caught. To me, it explains why we haven't seen arrests in these acts and terrorism. It explains why the pro Hamas people have been able to literally barricade Jewish neighborhoods and terrify the people who lived there. What it tells me is there is a culture within the Toronto Police Service. So I am grateful that this podcast was broadcast because it finally confirms to me that there's something wrong, really rotten, going on in the Toronto Police Service. Police bias against Jews is not a reason that City Councilor James Pasternak cites as to why enforcement has been so weak. He has other thoughts.

[James Pasternak]

This is my take on it. So the first thing, when we meet with police and we show them videos, and clearly there's criminal code violations, statutory code violations, bylaw infractions, they're not enforcing criminal code. They're not enforcing very statutory provisions under the Highway Traffic Act. Why wasn't this person arrested? We can't arrest in a mob, okay? We can't send our officers in when there's 3,000 people there and try and arrest an individual. So I say, okay, that's fair enough, you're outnumbered. But, you know, when you look at the January 6th riots at the Capitol Building, and most of the vast majority of the arrests occurred weeks or months afterwards. Facial recognition software, investigative work, they didn't arrest in a mob. They arrested months afterwards.

[Jesse Brown]

To be fair to the police, this has sometimes happened. Those masked men who yelled death threats in the Eaton Center Mall in front of police officers, they were both later identified, arrested, and charged. Police have since dropped charges against one of them. But such arrests are rare. This is because police around the country have been under orders to prioritize keeping the peace during protests over enforcing laws that get broken during protests.

[James Pasternak]

To many of these officers, the goal is not to arrest people calling for the genocide of Jews. The goal for that day is de escalation. Keep the two sides apart and send everyone home. At the end of the day, that is defined as success.

[Jesse Brown]

I've got to keep the peace. That's my job. I'm trying to do that. I'm trying to do that. I'm just trying to keep you guys separate in order to keep public safety, escalate the situation. Our whole job is to ensure that there's safety between the two.

[James Pasternak]

The problem with that approach is it'll occur day after day, month after month and year after year. The other thing is when there's suspicious arson, such as a burning of a school bus that was used for a Jewish school or some arson Other arson activity where there's a gray area whether it was connected to the Jewish community. Police officers say, well, we don't think it was hate motivated. So I say, well we know it's a crime, it's arson, so get them on the arson. You're not going to get a hate motivated conviction. But you know, if you can prove who torched a school bus, it was empty, or who torched the backyard of a Jewish school, then that's progress. You're arresting someone who committed arson.

[Jesse Brown]

It sounds like there's frustration in your voice that they're not pursuing it that way. Why are they not? Do you have any thoughts on why they're not pursuing it?

[James Pasternak]

Yes, I do have thoughts on that. First of all, they're haunted by the G20 in which there was an over police reaction to protesters and it damaged the reputation of the force and ended up in tens of millions of dollars of lawsuits. And then there was the George Floyd murder, which occurred in a different country, thousands of kilometers away. It was an aggressive arrest that resulted in a death. And it was all filmed. When you try and arrest, they don't come nicely. They want a good fight on their hands. So you need four or five officers to arrest someone. You see them trying to pin them to the ground and then there's 10 people around filming it. And then the next day their groups are issuing statements about police brutality. So how do you overcome that anti police element as part of these riots? That's part of it. You've got a situation also in which you're graduating young officers, maybe 300 a year that were trying to fill vacancies. You're putting some of them out on the front lines of people wearing masks, letting off smoke bombs, screaming in blowhorns and looking for a fight. I mean really looking for a fight. They're provoking the officers and these young officers are not ready for that. Finally, I would say they lay these charges and then they're dropped by the Ministry of the Attorney General. Well, if you take all those factors, then that's why you're not seeing a tougher law enforcement response to this.

[Jesse Brown]

In some cases, de escalation is arguably a reasonable approach for police to take. Like when a man wearing the logo of the militant Jewish Defense League tried to confront an angry crowd of anti Zionists. Police identified him as someone who was there trying to incite and they gave him options. They told him that he could remove his shirt, leave or be arrested.

Turn it inside out. They want me to take my shirt off. All right, let's go.

[James Pasternak]

Let's go.

[Jesse Brown]

Come on.

[Aviva Klompus]

All of you guys are fucking cowards.

[Jesse Brown]

What else? My shirt is a threat. My shirt is a threat. You fucking cowards. But here's another example of de escalation in practice. This is Montreal Rabbi Adam scheer talking to CBC News in December of 2024.

[Aviva Klompus]

Rabbi, really appreciate you giving us your time today. Can you walk us through what exactly unfolded on Saturday?

[Jesse Brown]

We were downtown, not for a protest, but just to have a. A Sunday afternoon with a family in downtown Montreal. We saw the protests coming up the street. We heard it. We heard the banging. We heard the slogans being yelled. And then we just saw the whole group coming up, and we went out to the street to see what was happening. A policeman came up to me and said, move on, and pointed away from the direction of where the protesters were. I was a little bit confused at first because I looked around and I saw there were dozens, hundreds of people standing there just like I was. And I was trying to understand why.

[James Pasternak]

Why?

[Jesse Brown]

He asked me. And it occurred to me. It was like a. Like a weight of bricks that just fell on me.

[Aviva Klompus]

This.

[Jesse Brown]

That moment, that realization that I'm the only one there wearing a kippah. And I said, why are you asking me to leave? What am I doing? I haven't spoken one word to a protester. I haven't shouted one slug. I'm standing there silently with my phone. And he said, well, we don't want a fire to start on both sides. To that cop practicing de escalation, the mere presence of a Jew was an escalation, provocation, an incitement. Many other examples of this have been documented of visibly Jewish people being asked by the police to simply walk around the encampment, to not insist on walking right through the demonstration.

Perhaps this is an expected and natural outcome of de escalation policing. If the protests are deemed acceptable, there are many violations of the law deemed unenforceable, and the likelihood of violence deemed manageable, so long as no incitements are present. Well, then the only thing that can't be tolerated by police is a Jewish.

Theory. Number three, it's Canada's Muslims growing up in Canada.

[Aviva Klompus]

The number one adjective to describe Canada is multiculturalism. And this is a country that prides.

[Jesse Brown]

Itself on tolerance and being multicultural. So then, if that is the core.

[Aviva Klompus]

Value, how do you explain this massive surge in antisemitism?

[Jesse Brown]

Once again, Aviva Klompus speaking with conservative politician Melissa Lansman.

[Aviva Klompus]

Yeah, look, I think that part of it is the demographic pressures There are many newcomers in this country who are not integrated where from countries where anti Semitism is culturally and religiously in ingrained.

[Jesse Brown]

By demographic pressures and newcomers. She means Muslims. According to Statistics Canada, the number of Muslims in Canada tripled in a 20 year period beginning in 2001. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau famously welcomed over 40,000 Syrian refugees into Canada during that country's civil war. Islam is now the second most common religion in Canada after Christianity. Canada's Muslim population is also quite young. The median age is 30 compared to the median national age of 41. Conservatives have long argued that Muslims are not being properly integrated into Canada, that they come with non Western values, and that liberal governments fail to screen for extremists and fail to educate newcomers in our pluralistic ways. Terry Glavin, perhaps because he's a journalist and not a politician, is more direct when he talks about this.

[Aviva Klompus]

There's also the fact that there's now.

[Jesse Brown]

1.8 million Muslims in the country and.

[James Pasternak]

We have to be very, very, very.

[Jesse Brown]

Careful about the way we talk about this.

[Aviva Klompus]

But the reality of it is that.

[Jesse Brown]

There are certain organizations and institutions in.

[Aviva Klompus]

This country that are very well financed.

[Jesse Brown]

And resourced by the federal government and.

[Aviva Klompus]

Are intended to speak on behalf of Canadian Muslims.

[Jesse Brown]

One of them is the Muslim association of Canada, which is explicitly devoted to.

[Aviva Klompus]

The theology of Hassan Al Banna, the.

[Jesse Brown]

Founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, the fountainhead of Islamism.

[Aviva Klompus]

So this is a bit of a problem.

[Jesse Brown]

The problem, according to Melissa Lanzman, is the Muslim Canadians come here with non Western values. The problem, according to Terry Glavin, is the groups representing Canadian Muslims are devoted to the violent ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood. Both of these arguments feed into a characterization of Muslim Canadians themselves as a problem. And both arguments rely on a fair amount of conjecture, perhaps a reckless level of conjecture. If I agree with Terry Glavin about anything, it's that we need to be very, very careful in discussing this. Not because of the optics, but because the last time it became acceptable in the mainstream discourse to describe Muslim Canadians as a threat. After 9 11, everyday Muslim Canadians faced routine suspicion and persecution in a country that at the time had not suffered a single Islam related extremist attack. Here again is Dr. Aisha Shirazi.

[Aviva Klompus]

After 9 11, Muslims were really required constantly to just denounce terrorism, to denounce what had happened. We were constantly told, you know, you should be denouncing this, you should be denouncing this.

[Jesse Brown]

Like I had any say in any decisions that a random individual decided to commit in my name.

Do Muslim Canadians have non Western values? Do mainstream Muslim associations in Canada spread radical Islam to everyday people? These all strike me as somewhat fuzzy notions about a concrete problem. I don't know exactly what a non Western value is, but I do know what antisemitism is. So if we are going to consider the theory that the surge in antisemitism in Canada has something to do with the surge in Muslim immigration, can we at least get some data?

[Aviva Klompus]

Let me talk a little bit about what the actual evidence shows.

[Jesse Brown]

This is Professor Robert Brim, a now retired sociology professor at the University of Toronto. He wanted answers to straightforward questions.

What percentage of Canadians have anti Semitic attitudes about Jews? Question two, which Canadians?

[Aviva Klompus]

First of all, I want to distinguish between anti Semitic sentiment and anti Semitic behavior. Anti Semitic sentiment hasn't changed much in Canada since 2014. We have among the lowest level of antisemitic sentiment of any country in the world. So in the level of sentiment, we have a lot to be proud of. I think in this country.

[Jesse Brown]

You heard that right? Contrary to what you might be thinking after everything that you've heard so far on this series, the Canadian population as a whole has one of the lowest levels of anti Jewish sentiment in the world.

[Aviva Klompus]

Only Sweden had a lower level of antisemitism.

[Jesse Brown]

Depending on which study you look at, only 8 to 13% of Canadians express some level of antisemitic sentiment. And those numbers have not gone up since 2014. But that is where the good news ends.

[Aviva Klompus]

Antisemitic behavior is different. These are actually actions that people take against Jews. And I found, and there are many sources of data that support this claim that the level of anti Semitic behavior in this country has skyrocketed in recent years.

[Jesse Brown]

Why would a country with globally low levels of animosity towards Jews suddenly experience skyrocketing rates of antisemitic behavior? Once again, I had to ask, were the statistics counting anti Zionism as antisemitism? How do you measure antisemitic sentiment and distinguish it from anti Israel sentiment?

[Aviva Klompus]

By asking questions in surveys that pertain exclusively to Jews or exclusively to Israel. Basically, people were asked to react to stereotypes concerning Jews, positive or negative stereotypes. The Jews have succeeded despite adversity. That's a positive stereotype. Saying that Jews control the media, the Jews have too much political power. The Jews are responsible for the ill effects of globalization. That's a negative stereotype. And people were asked to react to a set of 10 different stereotypes, positive or negative, concerning Jews. And they were placed on a, on a scale and all 10 items were added Together so that we have a summary index of sentiment towards Jews and similarly with Israel. Ten statements, some positive, some negative, some the scores, until we had a scale and then statistical tests were performed to make sure that the various items were highly correlated, that they actually formed a cohesive scale. 13% of Canadians, non Jews, have at least slightly negative attitudes towards Jews.

[Jesse Brown]

It isn't great to learn that 13% of my fellow Canadians are at least a little bit racist towards me. But as mentioned, when you compare that number to other countries, it's actually very low. But that number is an average of the entire non Jewish population. When Professor Brim drilled down and looked at specific groups, things changed.

[Aviva Klompus]

I found that the percentage of people with negative attitudes towards Jews was four times higher among Canadian Muslims than it was in the general non Jewish population.

[Jesse Brown]

What percentage of Muslim Canadians expressed anti Semitic sentiments?

[Aviva Klompus]

So the answer is about half of Canadian Muslims expressed at least slightly negative attitudes towards Jews.

[Jesse Brown]

That's a very challenging and difficult finding to process.

48%, that is. How many Canadian Muslims surveyed think that Jews are responsible for the evils of globalization or the Jews control the media, or that Jews have too much political power. And if those sentiments are not anti Semitic, I don't know what is. And it gets worse. As you heard, Professor Brim also studied the relationship between anti Israel sentiment and anti Jewish sentiment. And being against Zionism, as we have heard again and again, doesn't mean that you're against Jews. For some groups, the research does support that distinction.

[Aviva Klompus]

A lot of people think that the left wingers who are anti Israel are necessarily anti Semitic. And the data don't bear that out. The correlation was low on the left wing of the political spectrum. The data suggests that in general, most people on the left can distinguish and do distinguish between Jews in Israel and do not have negative attitudes towards Jews, but do have negative attitudes toward Israel.

[Jesse Brown]

But not everyone makes that distinction.

[Aviva Klompus]

The correlation between negative attitudes toward Israel and negative attitude towards Jews was highest among Muslims.

[Jesse Brown]

No group surveyed in Canada expressed higher rates of both anti Israel and anti Jewish sentiment than Muslims. That is a hard fact to absorb for Canadians like me who believe that coexisting peacefully in a diverse and pluralistic society is the best thing about this country. But please listen, because this is important. Dr. Brim's research is a record of people's feelings and their opinions, not their behavior. And his statistics were collected at a time of especially heightened emotion in the Muslim community during Israel's bombardment of Gaza. There are statistics out there about other groups that also don't paint a very flattering picture like the survey of Canadian Jews that found that 40% of us were opposed to increasing humanitarian aid to Gaza. I'd like to think that that number would not be the same if Canadian Jews were surveyed today post Ceasefire. Just as I'd like to hope that anti Jewish sentiment among Muslims might have calmed down as well. But once again, these attitudinal surveys only look at sentiments. More importantly, how many of the people who hold these feelings actually act on them.

[Aviva Klompus]

Frankly, I'm more interested in behavior than sentiment. I would like it if everybody liked me, but it's not imperative. I just don't want them to beat me up. I don't want them to call my kids names. You know, things like that. That's much more important to me.

[Jesse Brown]

Our best indications for behavioral at this point, at the extreme end of behavior is criminal behavior. And then the police reported hate crimes, I guess give us some indication. And those numbers are skyrocketing.

[Aviva Klompus]

Yes, and I think the figures are quite reliable.

[Jesse Brown]

One person I spoke to said, well, they're not reliable because Jews are much more likely to report it to the cops than other groups.

[Aviva Klompus]

We don't know that. What we do know, I mean, the head of the homic squad said that some groups may be more inclined than Jews to report. And he pointed out that Asians might be reluctant, but he didn't claim that any other groups are reluctant to report. Also, a report is not necessarily recorded as a hate crime. The motivation has to be proven before it's recorded as such.

[Jesse Brown]

That's an important distinction. It's not simply a matter of a Jew called up the cops and said, there's a Palestinian flag being waved outside my house. It's a hate crime. That doesn't make the cut.

[Aviva Klompus]

No, it doesn't. And if somebody calls me a dirty Jew, that's also not a hate crime. I might report it. When I published the first set of findings of this 2024 survey, I received an email saying that all you people should be herded together and put in concentration camps and gassed to death. I reported it to the police. It wasn't recorded as a hate crime. I mean, the police came, interviewed me and so on, and they sympathized with me. And I thought that was very responsible of them. But hate crime?

[Jesse Brown]

No, I don't want to dismiss the relevance of Professor Brim's findings. It is just reasonable to suspect that the same people who hold negative attitudes about Jews might be the same people who are striking out against Jews. But Those people, those who hold negative attitudes towards Jews, they are not all Muslim.

[Aviva Klompus]

I can tell you that in the population as a whole, age is related to negative attitudes towards Jews. Younger people tend to have more negative attitudes than older people do.

[Jesse Brown]

Younger people are more racist towards Jews.

[Aviva Klompus]

Not necessarily more racist in general.

[Jesse Brown]

And what about education? We talk a lot about how hatred is born of ignorance. Universities tend to be progressive spaces and anti racist spaces. When people in Canada go to university, are they more or less likely to be racist against Jews?

[Aviva Klompus]

Younger people, and people in universities in particular tend to have more negative attitudes towards Jews than do members of the general population. Certainly more negative attitudes than older members of the population.

[Jesse Brown]

I mean, that does track with one conception, which is that one thing you hear a lot is that the universities are hotbeds of both anti Zionist and anti Semitic indoctrination. That is an argument that one hears.

[Aviva Klompus]

There's considerable truth to that.

[Jesse Brown]

Some news coverage of Professor Brim's research focused on the alarming statistic about Muslim Canadian sentiment toward Jews. But there's a later study that he conducted, one that was not so widely discussed, and it revealed a different truth, maybe a more hopeful one.

[Aviva Klompus]

I'll tell you something really interesting. I did a 2025 survey of Canadians, including Jews and Muslims. It was a large sample of about 3,000 people in the general population. I found that the most important factor leading to the disappearance of anti Semitic attitudes among all groups, including Muslims, was having a Jewish acquaintance or even more so, having a positive experience with a Jew. There was no longer a higher level of anti Jewish sentiment among Muslims than others.

[Jesse Brown]

This might be the most surprising data that Professor Brim has collected. Just having a Jewish acquaintance or one positive experience with a Jew was enough to change the opinions of Muslim Canadians to the point where their level of antisemitic sentiment was no greater than anyone else's.

[Aviva Klompus]

What do we do about this? And I think that one of the things that the Jewish community must do systematically is to try to build bridges with groups that are antagonistic toward us. We need to listen with empathy to them and they need to be encouraged to listen empathically to us. And in that way I'm certain that anti Semitic and anti Muslim attitudes would decline. That's what my research shows, very conclusively. It was the number one. I looked at 16 different social characteristics of people and how they influenced attitudes towards Jews and Muslims. And these interpersonal relation factors were number one in determining how people felt about Muslims and about Jews.

[Jesse Brown]

Dr. Aisha Shirazi has dedicated herself for years to building those interpersonal, interfaith relationships. It all began in 2005, when she was the principal of the Ibraa Islamic Children's School in Ottawa. She suspended two teachers after learning that they had encouraged a student to hate Jews. And to me, the silver lining in.

[Aviva Klompus]

That incident that happened at the school.

[Jesse Brown]

That I was at was that there.

[Aviva Klompus]

Was some ability to reflect.

[Jesse Brown]

There was some ability to say, well.

[Aviva Klompus]

You know what, maybe we should be connecting with Christian and Jewish neighbors, and, you know, maybe we shouldn't be so insular. And we were looking for ways. We were actually desperate for ways to connect with other people, other communities, even kids to connect with other kids.

[Jesse Brown]

So I think that that was kind.

[Aviva Klompus]

Of a blessing because I know for.

[Jesse Brown]

Me personally, I developed a really good.

[Aviva Klompus]

Friendship with Rabbi Bolker out of that.

[Jesse Brown]

Ever since October 7th, her workshops with a different rabbi, Rabbi Blum, have been in high demand. I think it gives people hope and I think it reminds people that, you know what, we are all neighbors and.

[Aviva Klompus]

We are all one, fundamentally. So I have just received so much.

[Jesse Brown]

Support for that work because I think.

[Aviva Klompus]

It is important to remember that we're all neighbors and that we are together in this.

[Jesse Brown]

Those were three theories for why it is happening here in Canada to Jews to such an extreme extent. We looked at Canada's government, Canada's police, and finally Canada's Muslims. But I promised you that in addition to theories, you'd hear a conclusion. It's not a conclusion that negates or refutes the three theories that you've heard so far. I suspect that there is some truth to each of them, but it is a different way of looking at this issue completely. Let's take a step back. Consider for a moment the demands that anti Zionists have made here in Canada and how many of them have been met.

[Aviva Klompus]

Now, in related news, Canada is to halt all arms shipments to Israel amid the war in Gaza, the first major Western ally of Israel to do so.

[Jesse Brown]

We reiterate our call for an immediate ceasefire.

[Aviva Klompus]

We will not have any form of arms or parts of arms be sent to Gaza, period. Prime Minister Mark Carney condemning Israel's newly announced plan to take over the Gaza Strip.

[Jesse Brown]

Canada recognizes the state of Palestine.

[James Pasternak]

The Palestinian flag is being flown over Toronto City hall today for the first time.

[Aviva Klompus]

Palestinian flag is flying at Calgary City Hall. We, as Canadian Palestinians are being recognized.

[Jesse Brown]

Finally being recognized. Here is how anti Zionists have responded to these victories. A ceasefire does not mean an end.

[James Pasternak]

To this ongoing aggression.

[Jesse Brown]

A ceasefire means that the Zionist occupation have Failed and forever else there will be the graveyard of every single of its invaders.

We know very well that Zionism runs in the streets of Toronto. And we and we will continue to take to these streets until Zionism is rid from the entire world. This isn't just Palestine, this is in the entire world. The Zionist terrorist organization is destroying human rights worldwide. This is a case, a small taste of what is coming on a global scale. And we will go to the facts. Most of these people who own all of these corporations at the top, the 1%, they go by a Jewish background. You know what? Call me anti Semitic, antiseptic, I don't give a. If we do not hold the people who are responsible for for world crimes accountable, then we have no humanity. Wake up.

In the US anti Zionist protesters have politicians to target. Politicians who support the US sending billions of dollars in aid to Israel. They can target politicians who accept funding from aipac, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee. No targets like that exist in Canada and so different targets have been found.

[James Pasternak]

This was the scene outside Cafe Landwear over the weekend. Supporters from a Palestinian rally focusing their.

[Jesse Brown]

Attention on the restaurant whose Jewish founders fled Nazi Germany.

Boycott. Boycott. Boycott.

[James Pasternak]

The Toronto Police Hate Crimes unit is.

[Aviva Klompus]

Investigating a Wednesday morning fire at this Jewish owned deli.

[James Pasternak]

Windows were smashed and Free Palestine sprayed on the doors.

[Jesse Brown]

We begin today in a prominent Jewish neighborhood in Toronto. This was the scene on the Avenue Road bridge over Highway 401 on Saturday we will show the Palestinian flag on this overpass. This one specifically because it's in a Zionist infested area.

The reason why anti Zionism in Canada is constantly targeting everyday Jewish people is not in spite of the fact that Canada has met demands of anti Zionists. It's because of it. The Canadian government has never had much influence over Israel. Once Canada essentially conceded to the protest movement's demands, new targets were needed. When politicians and police appeased the protesters, the protesters redirected their anger towards Jewish institutions and Jewish neighborhoods. The hunt for complicit parties to boycott and blame has proven endless. The grounds for complicity have grown more and more tenuous.

So where does that leave us? On the next and final episode of what is happening here. What.

This episode is made possible by the generous support of the Bissell Family Foundation, George Berger, Dan DeBeau, Daniel Klaas, Nanette Okun, Leslie Scanlon, Marjorie Skolnick, the York School, Lee Zentner and others. This series is not yet fully funded. We want to be able to complete it. Once it is complete. We want to promote it properly to make sure that it gets heard by as many people as possible and by different kinds of people, younger listeners, not just Jewish ones. We also want to bring this series to campuses across Canada for town hall conversations about how this conflict has created fear and harm in our university and college communities. We want to host conversations about how everyone can work together to restore safety. To do all of that, we need financial support. Canadaland has again been losing supporters who say they are canceling because of this series. We need to replace that revenue and more in order for this project to have the impact that we think it can. Those who donate to this podcast will receive a tax deductible donation receipt through our project partner, the Canadian Jewish News, a registered journalism organization with the CRA. Contributing is easy. Just email me [e-mail] I spell my name J E S S E. I'll take you through it. What Is Happening Here is a co production of Canadaland Podcasts and the Canadian Jewish News. This episode was written and reported by me, Jesse Brown Research and story editing by Kate Minsky Original music by so called sound Design mixing and mastering by Caleb Thompson Editorial input from Michael Freeman. This episode relied on video documentation of the protests at Bathurst and Shepherd, filmed by many sources, but none more than Kareem Assad and her videographer Lee. Special thanks to them and to Jonathan Rothman of the cjn. We've put links to statistics and sources cited in today's episode in the show Notes. Thank you to Stephen Marsh, Jonathan Rothman, Mark Musselman and the entire team here at Canadaland for their input and their support. The next episode of what Is Happening Here will be available next week wherever you get your podcasts. To become a Canadaland supporter, go to canadaland.com join thank you for listening.