#6 Antizionism Is Not Antisemitism

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: What Is Happening Here | Canadaland Investigates
Episode #6: Antizionism Is Not Antisemitism
Date: December 17, 2025
Host: Jesse Brown

This conclusive episode explores the deepening crisis of antisemitism in Canada in the post-October 7th context. Jesse Brown investigates the experiences of Canadian Jews, the blurring of lines between antizionism and antisemitism, the shifting realities of cultural life, and the ideological roots and consequences of contemporary antizionist movements. The episode features personal testimonies, expert analysis, and even Palestinian voices to interrogate whether antizionism is truly distinct from antisemitism and what its real-world impacts are — on everyone.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Experiences of Antisemitism in Everyday Life

• Medical Mistreatment:

  • [00:04–04:03] David R. recounts a disturbing experience with a medical specialist who, upon learning of his Jewish identity, became hostile and dismissive during a painful eye procedure.
    • "The first thing this person says to me is, you Jewish? And I felt really defensive, you know. I said, yeah, but that's a German name too." — David R. [00:12]
    • David describes persistent rudeness and a lack of empathy, leaving him feeling intimidated and vulnerable during surgery.
    • He suspects antisemitic bias played a role in his treatment, especially after other complaints about the doctor surfaced.

• Is This Antisemitism?

  • [04:55] Jesse Brown reflects on how difficult it can be to distinguish between bad behavior and bias, especially when identity is at play.
    • "Was David correct in concluding that the doctor was anti Semitic? Is it possible that he was simply an unskilled doctor with rude manners?" — Jesse Brown [04:55]

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2. The Retreat of Jewish Culture from Public Spaces

• Ashkenaz Festival & Increased Security Burdens:
  • [06:25–09:18] Eric Stein, Artistic Director of Toronto’s Ashkenaz Festival, describes almost losing their longtime venue after being hit with a massive security fee in the wake of rising antisemitic tensions.
    • "They kind of blindsided us with a proposal for security requirements... nearly a million dollars that they were telling us initially would need to be spent in order for them to feel secure hosting our festival." — Eric Stein [07:15]
    • Even after negotiations, the festival suffered from poor attendance, as Jewish audiences felt unsafe attending public events.
    • "There were a lot of Jewish people that would ordinarily come to our festival who weren’t comfortable coming... for fear of the potential that they would have to encounter protest and disruption." — Eric Stein [08:55]
  • The growing trend is for Jewish culture to migrate away from integrated public spaces to predominantly Jewish neighborhoods — a symbolic and real withdrawal.

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3. Professional and Social Exclusion in Progressive Spaces

• Art, Grants & Community Estrangement:

  • [09:55–19:48] Jewish artists like cartoonist Miriam Lubicki have been banned from festivals due to past ties with Israel, and festivals and plays with Jewish themes have been canceled.
    • "It’s a lot easier to come out as gay and trans than someone who questions antisemitism." — Rachel Matlow (Archie) [11:20]
    • Archie discusses feeling shut out of the queer community and left-wing spaces that once felt like family, over expectations about Jewish identity.
    • “The irony that the queer community... prides itself on being inclusive... But now for Jews, it seems that the acceptance is conditional.” — Archie [13:29]
    • “No Zionists allowed” becomes an exclusionary litmus test, equated with “No Jews allowed.”

• Leftist Antisemitism as Distinct:

  • Archie highlights how antisemitic attitudes circulate differently in left/progressive spaces, through tropes about Jews as powerful or unworthy of anti-racist protections.
    • "We don't tell any other minorities what they're facing isn't really racism... But Jews are told all the time to stop overreacting.” — Archie [16:07]
  • The pain of policing Jewish identity is expressed: Jews are pressured to denounce Israel to remain accepted.

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4. Antizionism’s Intellectual Foundations and Its Relationship to Antisemitism

• Historical Origins:

  • [20:24–32:35] Adam Lewis Klein, a scholar and PhD candidate, traces the development of antisemitism and antizionism through history:
    • Antisemitism as an idea dates to 1879, with roots in pseudoscientific and race-based hatred.
    • The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (late 19th-century Russian forgery) was pivotal in linking Jewish collective action (Zionism) to global conspiracy myths.
    • Nazi propaganda about Zionism diffused through postwar Arab nationalists and the Soviet Union.
    • "Zionology", a KGB-Soviet doctrine, reframed Zionism as racism and imperialism — current slogans (“Zionism is racism”, “Israel is apartheid”) flow from this tradition.
    • "The Soviets really invented so much of the libels today that are used against Israel." — Adam Lewis Klein [25:32]

• Modern Tropes and Inversions:

  • Antizionism often inverts Holocaust tropes: “Jews as Zionists are themselves racists”, “Zionists are Nazis”, etc.
  • Old race-based anti-Jewish rhetoric morphs into new frameworks: Jews cast as “white colonizers”, a denial of their ethnicity or indigeneity.

• The Double Standards:

  • Jesse Brown points out that calls for Israel’s erasure are unique compared to criticisms of other states.
    • “You do not hear people say that [Russia, China, NKorea] should be wiped from the map.” — Jesse Brown [36:31]
  • Adam Lewis Klein says ignoring these double standards is part of the ideology.

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5. The Consequences for Jews in the Diaspora

• Litmus Test & Dilemma:

  • [38:49–40:29] Anti-Zionism imposes a choice on all Jews: reject anti-Zionism and face harassment, be silent, or become a “token” anti-Zionist Jew facilitating attacks on others.
    • “So you see what I mean? Even if anti Zionism is true, its main hate object is Israel and not all Jews. Of course it will affect all Jews via association.” — Adam Lewis Klein [39:49]
  • Pressuring Jews to “denounce Israel” to be tolerated is discriminatory; it echoes historic suspicions toward minorities.
    • “It’s an operation of force... we’ll decide who you are such that we will be legitimate in what we do.” — Adam Lewis Klein [40:40]

• Weaponization & Dilution of ‘Antisemitism’ as a Term:

  • Accusations of antisemitism now brand one as problematic, rather than calling out hate.
    • “To bring up the question of antisemitism is enough to brand you as an evil Zionist.” — Adam Lewis Klein [41:48]

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6. Anti-Zionism as Its Own Form of Hate

• Ideological Structure & Spread:

  • [34:12–42:49] Adam Lewis Klein asserts that it’s not fruitful to argue whether anti-Zionists are “really” antisemitic, since anti-Zionism operates as its own distinct hate movement.
    • “Anti Zionism itself is hate and anti Zionism is wrong. It’s a form of anti Jewish hate.” — Adam Lewis Klein [42:04]
    • The viral slogan “Anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism” cements the movement’s legitimacy.

• Not Pro-Palestinian:

  • [42:49–44:50] Jesse Brown observes: anti-Zionism offers “prophecy, not strategy”; it has consistently failed to advance Palestinian welfare, instead perpetuating cycles of violence and suffering.
    • “Anti Zionism is not pro Palestinian... Prophecy is not strategy.” — Jesse Brown [43:19]
    • “Anti-Zionism has been a catastrophe for Palestinians. But who am I... to say what’s best for Palestinians?” — Jesse Brown [44:50]

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7. Palestinian Perspective — Beyond Sides

• Ali Abunimah’s Advocacy for Nonviolence:

  • [45:13–56:04] Ali Abunimah, a Palestinian activist, provides a crucial view from Bethlehem:
    • The pro-Israel/pro-Palestine dichotomy helps no one: "If you are pro Palestine, be pro Jewish people to stand for the Palestinian right, not to be against Jewish people. If you are pro Israel, don't think that the Israeli security will be built ever at the expense of Palestinian dignity, freedom and rights." — Ali Abunimah [46:26]
    • He shares personal trauma inflicted by both sides but insists on the necessity of humanizing one's so-called enemies.
    • Rejects “globalize the intifada”; argues for “globalizing the solution” through nonviolence, mutual recognition, and pragmatic behavioral change.
    • “My problem is not with Judaism or Zionism. My problem is with the occupation." — Ali Abunimah [51:17]
    • He insists that “fanatics will not help Palestinians to be free.”

• Are Nonviolent Palestinians a Minority?

  • Ali argues the nonviolent majority is silent, but real.
  • [53:39] “We are not the minority. We are the active minority that represents [a] silent big majority.” — Ali Abunimah

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Policing Jewish Identity in the Arts and Progressivism:

  • “It's a lot easier to come out as gay and trans than someone who questions antisemitism.” — Archie [11:20]
  • “No Zionists allowed... As if that's somehow different. It's the acceptable 'No Jews allowed.'" — Archie [14:47]

• On Double Standards and Social Pressure:

  • “The prescription is we're not against you Jew, you just have to denounce Israel. Right, that itself is discriminatory.” — Jesse Brown [40:05]
  • “If you can't speak up in your defense, then anything can be done to you.” — Jesse Brown [41:56]

• On the Origins of Antizionism:

  • “The protocols of the Elders of Zion claims to be a transcript of the meeting of the World Zionist Organization. So from the beginning Zionism was always seen as particularly suspect because it was a clear case of Jews organizing themselves collectively.” — Adam Lewis Klein [23:17]

• On Solutions, Not Sides:

  • “If you are pro Palestine, be pro Jewish people to stand for the Palestinian right, not to be against Jewish people... If you cannot be part of the solution, don't be part of the problem.” — Ali Abunimah [46:26]
  • “My problem is not with Judaism or Zionism. My problem is with the occupation." — Ali Abunimah [51:17]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:04–04:03] — Medical antisemitism story (David R.)
• [06:25–09:53] — Ashkenaz Festival & cultural withdrawal (Eric Stein)
• [11:20–19:48] — Identity politics, antisemitism in queer & progressive spaces (Archie)
• [20:24–32:35] — Intellectual history of antisemitism & antizionism (Adam Lewis Klein)
• [38:49–41:56] — The litmus test, discrimination in progressive spaces (Adam & Jesse)
• [42:49–44:50] — Antizionism as empty prophecy, not strategy (Jesse Brown)
• [45:13–56:04] — Palestinian nonviolence and the real stakes (Ali Abunimah)

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Conclusion

This episode presents a layered and nuanced investigation into what is happening to Jews in Canada and beyond — not simply cataloguing acts of hate, but examining the ideologies, social shifts, and personal repercussions underlying today’s enmity. The show challenges listeners to rethink antizionism not just as a set of positions on Israel, but as a driver of real harm, both for Jews and for the prospects of peace.

Final reflection from Jesse Brown:
"When I began this series, I thought that anti Zionism was anti Semitism. But I set out to investigate that belief... it didn't [hold up]. But it's no less of a threat to Jews for that fact." [42:49]

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For further discussion, the episode offers an open invitation for reflection and dialogue on how to restore safety, fairness, and genuine pluralism for all — on campuses, in cultural life, and in society at large.

Transcript

[Eric Stein]

Canadaland, funded by you.

[David R.]

Even talking about this stuff, it sort of. It stirs me a bit. So if I stammer, I'm sorry. I'm David R. And I live in North York, Ontario. I have eye issues related to something called Sjogren's. It's an autoimmune disease where you don't produce saliva in your throat or your eyes. So I had to get some surgery done. They had to laser off some residual parts around my cornea. The head ophthalmologist, he sends me to this person. This person's a doctor. So he's like, I think, the second year of his fellowship, and he's in charge of when the head isn't around. The person was of Middle Eastern background, and he turned, looking at, reading the chart, and the first thing this person says to me is, you Jewish? And I felt really defensive, you know. I said, yeah, but that's a German name too. He said, oh. And I said, is there another chair for my coat? He said, oh, just throw it on the floor. So what happens is when you do this laser surgery, they make you open your eyes really wide, and you put your eyes into this thing. It looks almost like a periscope, right where you're both eyes. And then they aim it and then they zap, right? It's just very painful. So, you know, I did well for the first few minutes. And then he yelled at me. He said, keep your eyes open. I said, I'm sorry. I have Sjogren's syndrome. I explained it. He said, well, you have to try harder. That was like my third round of laser. When you laser, it's not just zap one second, zap one second. The zap can go on for more than a few seconds. Last time I was there, I had another fellow who was such a pro, he would take and then he'd stop. And I said, take a break. Now. I know it must be hard for you, so there is a way of doing it better. But this person just kept zapping. Then my eyes would close and he'd yell at me more. It was definitely painful because he prolonged the zaps. He did these long ones. I said, well, I'm sorry. I said, can we just have a break for a few minutes because it's really hurting. He said, we will in five minutes. Let me just finish this one eye first, and then we'll do the other eye. It's like, okay. So I'm just, like, just closing my eyes just to try to gather whatever moisture I can in my eyes. He Starts again. He said, you're not keeping your eye open wide enough. I'm just, like, taking this, like, I just don't know any better. I felt intimidated because this guy's behind the wheel of a laser machine. I've never had that kind of experience with a doctor. You know, the more he yelled to me, the less able I was to keep my eyes open. It was more the same with the other eye. Then at the end, the main ophthalmologist came in and looked, and he said, oh, there's still a lot of stuff here. So the fellow said, well, he wouldn't leave his eyes open. Like, accusatory. Anyway, when I went back to see the ophthalmologist, I said to him, I can't see that person again. I just want you to know it didn't go well for me. He said, yeah, we've heard some other comments about him. Now is the word he used, comments. And he's no longer here, so I have no idea what that means, but it was, like, a relief. I said, I just want you to know. I felt really. This guy was, like, yelling at me. Mm. I could tell that this guy didn't really want to hear that stuff.

[Jesse Brown]

Do you think that you were treated differently because you're a Jewish?

[David R.]

I definitely do, especially with him. And I'm always giving people the benefit of doubt if people like our. Or, like, you know, sometimes people just have bad days, and I just. I always figure someone's having a bad day, but this bad day went on and on and on. Like, you just don't talk to people in that way. Right. There's nothing I had done to warranted anything remotely like that. You know, when I grew up, I looked up to doctors. They were like role models. You know, it's just. It's a very different kind of world, it seems.

[Jesse Brown]

Was David correct in concluding that the doctor was anti Semitic? Is it possible that he was simply an unskilled doctor with rude manners? David's certainty that he was being discriminated against could arguably be dismissed as paranoia projected onto somebody else because he happens to be Middle Eastern. Or can David believe his own eyes? Does he know bigotry when he sees it? When he feels it? I'm Jesse Brown. And today, on the final episode of what is happening Here. What now? Where has the last two years of surging hatred against Jews in Canada left us? Are we past the worst of it? Or are we living in a different world now, one in which antisemitism is back for good? So far, we've looked at things like vandalism, protests, violence. But today we'll look at everyday life. How have things changed for Jews here culturally? How have things changed for us in our relationships? And can they ever go back? We'll begin with a story that is not about violence or vandalism. It's about music.

[Eric Stein]

My name is Eric Stein. I'm the artistic director of the Ashkenaz Festival, and I'm also a performing musician myself. Mandolin and bass are my two primary instruments.

[Jesse Brown]

The Ashkenaz Festival is probably the biggest Jewish music festival in North America. Eric describes the whole thing as ardently apolitical. 90% of its programming is free to the public. The festival's mandate has always been to spread Jewish culture and music to Jews and non Jews alike.

[Eric Stein]

We want to show you our horns, but not the ones on our heads.

[Jesse Brown]

Ashkenaz has always taken place at the Harborfront center in downtown Toronto. It's a cultural organization founded by the government of Canada. But now Eric's looking for a new venue.

[Eric Stein]

They kind of blindsided us with a proposal for security requirements that would be necessary in order for them to host our festival in 2024. And the initial presentation included a bill that we estimated that it was nearly a million dollars that they were telling us initially would need to be spent in order for them to feel secure hosting our festival.

[Jesse Brown]

Harborfront disputes this. They say that their presentation was for no more than half a million. In either case, it was a massive jump from previous years when security costs were about $30,000.

[Eric Stein]

And as the conversations continued, they were not warm conversations. They were officious and just kind of cold and kind of gave us the feeling like, you guys don't really want us here because this is basically our entire budget for the whole year. They were proposing that we needed to fence the entire site and have bomb sniffing dogs. All of this on a bill for us to pay.

[Jesse Brown]

After a difficult negotiation, Eric was able to get the costs down low enough for the show to go on. In the end, the festival went off without a hitch. No bombs, just music.

[Eric Stein]

I don't think I can answer the question, was it anti Semitic with a yes or a no? It was like, well, it's inconvenient. It's inconvenient that you guys are Jewish. You know what I mean? What you're conveying to us is that you're not our ally.

[Jesse Brown]

That experience left a bad taste in Eric's mouth. But it's not the only reason why he's looking for a new venue. The bigger problem with last year's festival was that attendance was way down.

[Eric Stein]

There were a lot of Jewish people that would ordinarily come to our festival who weren't comfortable coming to a space like that, a really open public space in the middle of downtown Toronto. For fear of the potential that they would have to encounter protest and disruption. The Jewish community has gradually been moving north in Toronto. The fastest growing part of Jewish Toronto is north of Steeles.

[Jesse Brown]

So now Eric is thinking about moving the festival to the suburbs where Jewish people have been steadily migrating. It's part of a larger trend, Jews pulling back from public life. There are now fewer Jewish teachers and students in our public schools, fewer Jewish journalists in our newsrooms, fewer Jewish people living in non Jewish neighborhoods. If the Ashkenaz festival follows them to a Jewish area, they might be able to attract their core audience again, but that'll come at the expense of sharing Jewish culture with everybody else.

[Eric Stein]

That's really, really hard and sad.

[Jesse Brown]

Jewish artists are feeling this across the country. Cartoonist and art instructor Miriam Lubicki was briefly banned from the Vancouver Comic Arts festival because they said her service in the Israeli military as a file clerk 25 years ago presented, quote, public safety concerns to the comic book community. She has felt less welcome in the arts ever since.

[Rachel Matlow (Archie)]

If you're doing anything with Jewish content, there is a little bit more of a side eye. I have definitely seen a downturn in that. Opportunities that I feel I would have been easily accepted for prior to two years ago, had a very good track record of receiving grants, of receiving certain job offers, and that they definitely have suffered in the last two years.

[Jesse Brown]

After October 7, a Jewish film festival was canceled by a movie theater in Hamilton, Ontario. A play about an Israeli was canceled by theaters in Vancouver and Victoria, and the work of a Jewish artist was pulled from a major gallery in Vancouver. For Jewish people working in the arts, these cancellations can be especially cruel. They cost people professionally, but they can also sever people from their communities. Of course, this has also happened to many Jews in other communities.

[Rachel Matlow (Archie)]

Before October 7th, I would have. I would have always said I was queer first. The queer community was where I've always felt safe and where I came of age. My name is Rachel Matlow. People call me Archie these days. It's a lot easier to come out as gay and trans than someone who questions anti Semitism. It was really shocking on October 7th to immediately see many queer friends of mine change their profile pics to the Palestinian flag. Like, without even pausing to show a shred of sympathy for the mostly Jewish Israelis. Who were slaughtered. Like, what? You can't just show a bit of human empathy? Like, you know, I'm pro Palestine too, but people were just murdered. And it just became painfully clear that no one really cared that a terrorist organization raped and killed and kidnapped hundreds of Jews. And, you know, just even being at a queer bar, I remember only like a week or two after and there was a comedian making jokes about how hot Hamas fighters are and she'd like to date them. They have such good organizational skills and everyone's laughing and it just was like, wait a second. Like, the hypocrisy here was really astounding, you know, and then the rape denialism and we're supposed to believe women, but not Jewish women. It also became clear that I wasn't allowed to show any sympathy for the Israelis who were murdered and taken hostage. Like, they call me a Zionist, just dismissed, mocked, condescended to. There was this litmus test I felt that you had to pass to be acceptable and not deemed a racist. And, you know, just the irony that the queer community and left wing circles in general prides itself on being inclusive, intersectional, anti racist. But now for Jews, it seems that the acceptance is conditional. So it's like I can't acknowledge that Israel is a country without putting quotation marks around it. You can't even hope for a two state solution without being deemed racist colonists. You know, it's either renounce Israel, accept that October 7th was legitimate resistance, or you're a Zionist, pro Israel, racist, genocidal baby killer. And just like even going to the dyke march or the trans march, places where I used to feel safe, it just suddenly felt very hostile. Friends of mine say all Israelis deserve to die. All Zionists are genocidal baby killers. Like, why does no one blink? Like, why is that acceptable in progressive spaces? It's troubling. I bit my tongue a lot. They say this party, no Zionists allowed. It's a common phrase. It's the acceptable no Jews allowed. A person I know is opening a bar. No Zionists allowed. In the bar, you're allowed to say, no Zionists allowed. As if that's somehow different, you know, And I must renounce Israel and cast all Israelis as bad and complicit to be accepted at the party. Why isn't it enough that I've been critical of Israel's government for decades and that I care deeply about Palestinian people and I want peace for everyone? I just don't want to be told what kind of Jew I have to be to be accepted by My friends, I think it's important to analyze, unpack this different kind of anti Semitism that's happening in progressive left circles. It's different from the blatant overt forms that we associate with the far right, violence, swastikas, the Nazi stuff. And that's why I think many people don't see it, because it's subtle. It's the kind that doesn't even acknowledge that antisemitism is racism. I think a lot of people on the left, including many Jewish friends of mine, have absorbed these old antisemitic myths that Jews are rich and powerful, capitalistic, colonizing, secretly controlling the world. People insist that Jews are not worthy of the same anti racist protections given to other minorities. You know, we don't tell any other minorities what they're facing isn't really racism. You know, we don't tell women that they're exaggerating sexism. Like we don't correct their lived experience, you know, But Jews are told all the time to stop overreacting.

[Jesse Brown]

Archie says that some of the most troubling behavior that they've experienced has come from anti Zionist Jews.

[Rachel Matlow (Archie)]

There's a lot of guilt and shame about being Jewish. And so they make a point of how they hate Israel and how they're not that kind of bad Jew, like maybe their older conservative family members are. So they are the good Jew. And they'll be on the front lines attacking the wrong kind of Jews. They'll speak out the loudest. I don't think they realize that they're giving permission to other people to hate Jews because people can say, well, my Jewish friends are anti Zionist too. It becomes a shield for other people's bigotry.

[Jesse Brown]

To Archie, this isn't just about losing their community. It's also about what that community itself has lost. It's lost sight of its own principles, such as always standing against racism of any kind and always standing in solidarity and celebration of queer rights. Even if the queer people in question happen to be Israeli.

[Rachel Matlow (Archie)]

Yes, Israel might pink wash and try to use queer rights there to bolster its image. But why does that mean you have to dismiss all the genuine hard fought gains made by queer activists in Israel? It's dishonoring what the activists have achieved. It's shocking that people think it's helpful to boycott Israeli filmmakers and artists and the queer community. Like those are the people who are most critical of their own government, who advocate for Palestinian rights, who are working for dialogue and peace, banning books, protesting bookstores, book prizes, film festivals, filmmakers, artists, queer People, this is who are protesting, like, these are the enemies. The thing about the queer community is that, you know, it's more than just a community for so many, right? It's, it's chosen family. Like the bonds are so tight for many people. It's like the only place that they feel accepted. A lot of people have been rejected by family members, so it's a lifeline. There have been some lefty Jewish people in the queer community that have privately told me that they feel uncomfortable about the anti Semitism, but that they don't feel comfortable saying anything because they don't want to lose all their friends. I get it. Nobody wants to be ostracized from their community. I really, really hope people will start being more curious about antisemitism and not assume they already know what it is or isn't and stop policing people's Jewish identities. Recognizing antisemitism does not diminish Palestinian suffering. You know, it doesn't weaken the fight for Palestinian rights. It actually strengthens the coalition.

[Jesse Brown]

Queer Jews kicked out of their chosen families. Jewish artists unwelcome in galleries, concert halls and theaters. Jewish elders unsure if their own doctor might mean them harm or afraid to leave their homes. Just last weekend as I record this, somebody went door to door in an apartment building for seniors on Bathurst Street. Members of the city's Jewish community are.

[Adam Lewis Klein]

Coming together to support residents after Jewish prayer.

[Rachel Matlow (Archie)]

Scrolls known as mezuzahs were taken from.

[Adam Lewis Klein]

More than 20 doorways.

[Rachel Matlow (Archie)]

It's elderly Jewish seniors and Holocaust survivors.

[Jesse Brown]

This is not an acceptable way to live. These are not a handful of, of emotional outbursts. These are not a few bad apples. This goes to the core. There is something about this ideology, something about this movement that I don't yet understand. Adam Lewis Klein is a scholar. He's completing a PhD in anthropology from McGill University. He's been writing about all of this to a growing audience. And he thinks that this whole exercise of trying to determine if anti Zionism is good or bad, acceptable or unacceptable based on whether or not it's antisemitic, well, that misses the point completely. If we want to understand what is happening, we need to examine anti Zionism as its own ideology, one that has its own unique history. I spoke to Adam in Sleepy Hollow, New York, and the first thing he helped me to understand is that the common notion that antisemitism has been with us forever. It's been around for centuries and centuries. Well, that's not really accurate. Yes, people have been persecuting Jews for millennia, but antisemitism well, that term has only existed since 1879.

[Adam Lewis Klein]

Antisemitism emerged in modernity, framed itself as science and said this is different than medieval opposition to Judaism as a religion. It's not about killing Jesus, it's about something else. It's about that the Jews as a people are a malevolent influence on our societies. Jews were a kind of invasive foreign body.

[Jesse Brown]

Anti Zionism on the other hand, does not hate Jews on the basis of bogus race science. Adam understands anti Zionism as its own thing, completely individual. Anti Zionists might borrow material from Nazi era antisemitism or from Christ killer Jew hatred, but those libels are not core to what anti Zionism is. If you want to understand that, you have to trace anti Zionism back to its origins. I'm going to play you a significant chunk of my conversation with Adam Lewis Klein because for me this was a breakthrough in my understanding of what anti Zionism is and where it started. My first surprise was to learn that it does not come from the Arab world.

[Adam Lewis Klein]

So if we look at the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, this classic text of a world Jewish conspiracy created by Russian pogromists in the late 19th century, but then really popular with the Nazis, that's where you can trace the emergence of anti Zionism. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion claims to be a transcript of the meeting of the World Zionist Organization. So from the beginning Zionism was always seen as particularly suspect because it was a clear case of Jews organizing themselves collectively.

[Jesse Brown]

It's certainly interesting to note that Nazis spoke directly about Zionism and imperialism and that was part of their case against the Jews. But that doesn't necessarily mean that that's where the Palestinian cause got it from. Is there a direct connection?

[Adam Lewis Klein]

Yes, there is. So by the end of World War II, the Nazis were moving their propaganda, their understanding of Jews towards Zionism since most of the Jews had been eliminated from Eastern Europe. And they started talking more and more about Israel as a center of the world Jewish conspiracy. And then what you had after the war is you had important Nazis like, like Johannes von Liers for example, who moved to Cairo. Lears converted to Islam. He became deeply involved with the Muslim Brotherhood, which is one of the largest Islamist movements. He was an advisor to Nasser and Nasser's Arab nationalist program. And Nasser was leading essentially the Arab League at this time in their wars against Israel. And he set up an institute in Cairo which was a so called study of Zionism Institute. And it's there that these anti Zionist notions were sort of fomented. And these Arab nationalists and Islamists would themselves ally with the Soviet Union and they established networks then with what the Soviets were doing in terms of creating Zionology. So you can actually trace these pathways and networks through which anti Zionist ideologies were transmitted from Nazism into the Arab and Islamic world and also into the Soviet Union and back into the Arab and Islamic world.

[Jesse Brown]

What is Zionology?

[Adam Lewis Klein]

Zionology is what the Soviets called their pseudoscientific study of Zionism. It was basically a propaganda doctrine that was directly sponsored by the KGB to construct Zionism in these terms as imperialistic, as racist, as fascist. It was a piece of a larger Soviet propaganda campaign where they would reframe anyone they didn't like as Nazi collaborators or Zionist agents, completely reinvent biographies. They did this to Pope Pius xii, they did this to a number of Catholic bishops would call them Nazi collaborators. And so there is very much a history that you can trace of anti Zionist rhetoric that anti Zionists themselves are completely unaware of. The Soviets really invented so much of the libels today that are used against Israel. The colonizer libel, apartheid libel. They invented in the 70s and late 60s. They pushed through in the U.N. the Zionism is racism resolution.

[Jesse Brown]

Zionism is racism and Israel is a part. Those are like the slogans of the current anti Zionist that comes from the Soviet Union.

[Adam Lewis Klein]

Yes. And you have to understand it in terms of the resonances those tropes had for the Soviet Union at the time. So their main argument against the US was that the US is a racist country. So the US might have these freedoms and stuff, but it's capitalist and evil and there's inequality. So when the Soviets were calling something racist, it was part of a very specific anti American campaign which when they were calling things fascist, it had a lot to do with their own national mythology of having defeated the Nazis. So you can understand how those emerge at the Soviet context. The key to it is the whole set of post Holocaust inversions. Antisemitism was a form of racism against Jews. But Jews as Zionists are themselves racists. Jews suffered a genocide, but Jews as Zionists are committing a genocide. Zionists are Nazis. Zionazi. We hear this all the time.

[Jesse Brown]

This is an incredibly compelling idea to millions of people. There's like a perfect irony that people can immediately understand. You were once the victim, now you're the victimizer. You were once the victims of a holocaust, now you're perpetrating a holocaust. You've become what you hate. This makes sense to people on kind of like an essential level.

[Adam Lewis Klein]

You often Hear the idea that Jews are white Europeans, they're imposters. There's been a recent resurgen popularity of the Khazar theory, which is a theory that Ashkenazi Jews today are all basically converts from this medieval Turkish kingdom. And it's actually a way in which pseudogenetic racial arguments are actually smuggled back into anti Zionism. When we hear this idea that Jews are white colonists or they're Europeans and for that reason they don't have any indigeneity to Israel. Jews don't belong in Israel. There's a kind of attempt to erase Jewish history for many Western audiences. They don't necessarily recognize this as anti Semitism, which is kind of crazy because these people are so deeply hateful. But why don't they recognize it as anti Semitism? Because it is actually a different set of tropes and libels than the ones we might associate with classical antisemitism. The guy's there, he's not wearing a swastika, he's not a skinhead. He hasn't said Jews are non white race polluters. He's using a whole different arsenal. The redefinition of Jews as a religion and not a distinct ethnic group, which we hear so much in anti Zionist discourse. Like you're not a people, you're not an ethnicity, you're just a religion.

[Jesse Brown]

I thought this was just sort of like school ground taunting. When I would say something racist has happened in Canada to Jews. And then sometimes the response would be Jews aren't a race. That would be news to Hitler. But I never didn't even respond to those because it seemed like such a preschool level of retort. But it actually is based on a thought system that's trying to deracialize the notion of a Jew to just a white person.

[Adam Lewis Klein]

Exactly. That's a huge thing in anti Zionism is to kind of erase our existence as a people, as a distinct people. And that is different from classical antisemitism. You know what the Nazis said was the opposite. In this case what the Nazis said is the Jews are pretending to assimilate. The problem is Jews entering into our societies, acting as if they're Germans, when actually they're this other alien people. Now it's flipped because the situation is different. Eighty years ago they were telling us your assimilation is a problem into our nation. They've already flipped and said the problem is no, you have your own nation and you're not assimilating and you should just be a minority in other nations. So when they Go back to Poland. That's what they're saying.

[Jesse Brown]

Just like you're a settler in Poland, you're a settler here in Canada. And it seemed like there was a jeering that reminded me of like this notion of the stateless like wandering Jew, 100% we're cursed to be nationless theologically.

[Adam Lewis Klein]

Under Christianity and Islam because we rejected their religions. We are permanently exiled and that's a sign of our humiliation of our sin, etc. We have this in Christian with Augustine and you also have this in Muslim theology and it's reiterated inside Ketob and Muslim Brotherhood ideology.

[Jesse Brown]

But this is not explicitly voiced in campus anti Zionism that we are ordained by God to be stateless when we hear the certainty with which Israel will fall and Palestine will be free. It is spoken of as a political argument basically that fascists and imperialists are destined to fail and the will of the people can only be suppressed for so long. I don't know that it would be as palatable to a lot of the people who have taken up the pro Palestine cause if they were aware that this is based on a religious doctrine that Jews are cursed to be stateless.

[Adam Lewis Klein]

I mean of course many of the leftist activists see this in terms of like a secular moral imperative and they don't have an Islamist theology. Right. But I'm not sure if they really have a problem with Islamist movements. Right. If you look at the Iranian Revolution in 1979, many left wing revolutionaries supported the rise of Khomeini and the Shia clerics controlling the government because they saw that as a kind of anti imperial reaction. So I think that's the same basic assumption that the anti Zionists are using today. Yeah, Hamas is this right wing theocratic organization, but they're carrying out this broader secular liberation process.

[Jesse Brown]

The aspects of religious fundamentalism that are not compatible with a North American progressive mindset. The anti queer aspect gets a pass and is seen as like, well, we understand differing cultures and we understand that oppressed people have their, I don't know, eccentricities. But that's not what's important here.

[Adam Lewis Klein]

There's an exoticizing.

[Ali Abunimah]

Yeah.

[Adam Lewis Klein]

And in some ways it can even increase the appeal.

[Jesse Brown]

I don't know that the millions of people around the world who are taking to the streets out of genuine horror at the images they're seeing from Gaza and out of a genuine feeling of wanting to do something about it. I don't know that they carry with them pre existing animus towards Jews.

[Adam Lewis Klein]

So of course we can't read people's minds and we don't have any reason to think that they're lying when they say that they don't consciously hold animus towards Jews or towards Jews as such. And if we did say they were consciously lying, I agree. We would sound like what they sometimes claim about us, that when we say something is anti Semitic in the first place, we have a malevolent intent to hide the atrocities of Israel. We are ourselves these evil Israeli agents. Anytime you say something's anti Semitic to an anti Zionist, they say, I was just criticizing Israel and you're just trying to stop me. Are they anti Semitic in the sense that they hate so called all Jews? Maybe not. Some of them. Their objective hate really is fixated on what they conceive of as the Zionist and as Israel and as Israelis. Right, but that is not any more legitimate. It's also a form of hate. I mean, I've had people directly tell me, you know, I don't hate Jews, I hate Zionists. Okay, so you just told me that you do hate.

[Jesse Brown]

Your point being that we are lost in a semantic battle over whether this is hatred against Jews or against Israel or against Zionism. And the focus should be, well, why have we accepted that a hate movement is legitimate to begin with?

[Adam Lewis Klein]

Essentially from the point of view of moral justification, a hate movement against Israel, even the state. And a hate movement works through libels which aren't acceptable. It's not acceptable to spread defamatory, false or decontextualized claims about anyone. People who spread libels are very invested in establishing consensuses all the time because it's one of their central arguments. One of their central arguments is a fallacy of majority. You will hear this all the time, you know, well, these organizations or these genocide scholars, it's sort of self propagating. The more people are saying this, just repeating it like a herd, the more that people have justification and feelings of legitimacy to continue repeating it until it grows and it grows and it grows. It really is almost like a virus that's sort of exponentially reproducing itself and growing. Of course Israel is guilty. Look what it's accused of.

[Jesse Brown]

One understands on an almost cellular level that it's dangerous to contradict those repeated assertions.

[Adam Lewis Klein]

Right?

[Jesse Brown]

The very fact that you're arguing with it proves that you are the enemy Jew. The desire to have a reasonable conversation where you might persuade someone that those things are actually not accurate often feel impossible because people don't want to be persuaded to believe something that is going to come at a huge social cost to them. To agree with you.

[Adam Lewis Klein]

I think from a psychological point of view, it's incredibly difficult if not impossible at this point to convince anti Zionists that they are anti Semites. You call them an anti Semite, it's not going to do anything because they've constructed a whole ideology that's built around inverting antisemitism itself. We have to sort of take them at their terms just enough say, okay, maybe you don't hate Jews as such, but you really hate Israel. Like you really think this one country is like the most evil thing in the world. You want to destroy it. You think Israelis are completely fake?

[Jesse Brown]

Well, you'll hear virulent and I think well founded arguments against what China is doing or what Russia is doing or what North Korea does to its own citizens. You do not hear people say that those countries should be wiped from the map.

[David R.]

No.

[Adam Lewis Klein]

Yeah, it's unique, right? It's unique. That's how you know when anti Israel rhetoric is anti Semitic. They will largely ignore you because they don't really care if they're doing double standards. They don't care if they're demonizing. They like demonizing. The whole point is you can construct the Zionist or the Israeli as the figure of all evil.

[Jesse Brown]

I think that there are a lot of Jewish people in North America and in the Diaspora, younger ones especially, who are negotiating a divorce with Israel. These are positions and affiliations that come at a great cost. And what is it to them if they accept that their Judaism is separable from Israel?

[Adam Lewis Klein]

Right. And that's what I mean by saying that anti Zionism, its object of hate really is Israel. They hate Israelis at, at that level it makes sense that certain Jews could disconnect from it. Right? There is an out. There's an out for Diaspora Jews who want to separate themselves from the hated Israel. There's an out for anti Zionist Jews who want to join this movement and act as tokens. And it's also the case that we shouldn't be telling every Jew they need to be a so called Zionist. They need to have a connection to Israel as natural as that feels for the most Jews. Both from a religious point of view that Israel is a sacred land in our texts. Both from just a more prosaic point of view. Many of us have family and friends in Israel. From the sense of our story and our trauma, we suffered the Holocaust, but then miraculously we came home. It makes perfect sense for most Jews to be connected to Israel. But it doesn't work that well to be like you. You're against Jews because you're against Israel and Israel is part of our identity. It doesn't work that well because there can always be Jews for whom Israel is not part of their identity.

[Jesse Brown]

Why shouldn't Jews take that out if they can? What are the consequences for being a Canadian or an American Jew if Israel is continued to be made a pariah state and anti Zionism sort of triumphs?

[Adam Lewis Klein]

Well, so, so I think that, that anti Zionism does impose this dilemma upon all Jews. So all Jews are affected of course by anti Zionism. Because if anti Z takes over an institutional space and you're a Jew, you have three options. One is that you don't accept it, you reject anti Zionism, you might not even be a so called Zionist or even identify in that way. As long as you reject anti Zionism, call it out, call it anti Semitic, just say this is wrong, they'll call you a Zionist, they'll abuse, harass you and discriminate against you. That's one option.

[Jesse Brown]

You'll be purged.

[Adam Lewis Klein]

You'll be purged. The other option is you just be silent and hope that you fade into the crowd. And the third option of course is that you become an explicit token anti Zionist Jew, engage in Jewish self shaming and help anti Zionists to abuse and discriminate against other Jews. So that in itself is unfair, that is discriminatory against all Jews at that level. So that is a litmus test that is in fact imposed on all Jews via assumed association with this evil libel to Israel that anti Zionism constructs. So you see what I mean? Even if anti Zionism is true, its main hate object is Israel and not all Jews. Of course it will affect all Jews via association.

[Jesse Brown]

The prescription is we're not against you Jew, you just have to denounce Israel. Right, that itself is discriminatory. The fact that you are forced. It's sort of like same suspicion that fell Under Muslims after 911 of like I have no problem with you, you just have to denounce radical Islam. You are kind of guilty until you take a vow and oath. I'm not a witch.

[Adam Lewis Klein]

Exactly.

[Jesse Brown]

To internalize that and say I accept your definition of what's really Jewish and what isn't. To concede to the argument, if you don't want to be targeted, just detach yourself from Israel.

[Adam Lewis Klein]

Yeah, it's an operation of force. Basically we're the majority, so we decide what's legitimate. You're a minority so you don't have a right to tell us that our hate of you that our representations of you were wrong. You know, we decide, so we'll decide who you are such that we will be legitimate in what we do.

[Jesse Brown]

One aspect of this is we're told anti Semitism doesn't mean anything anymore because you have cried wolf too many times. You have conflated anti Zionism with anti Semitism. I've heard anti Zionists say, you know what? I don't even care if you call me an anti Semit anymore. You know what? I'm proud of it if you do.

[Adam Lewis Klein]

I mean, anti Semitism has been watered down. I don't think it's because Jews have been falsely calling people anti Semites. I think it's because there's been so much antisemitism that we are calling people anti Semites all the time. And so it no longer has that force. To bring up the question of anti Semitism is enough to brand you as an evil Zionist.

[Jesse Brown]

Right.

[Adam Lewis Klein]

So it's not only that they're claiming anti Semitism accusations no longer have any weight. They are incriminating in themselves.

[Jesse Brown]

I think that this is dangerous for Jews everywhere. If you can't speak up in your defense, then anything can be done to you.

[Adam Lewis Klein]

Yeah, I think we need to be.

[Ali Abunimah]

Able to do both.

[Adam Lewis Klein]

I think we have to be able to keep talking about anti Semitism. You know, we have a right to stand up against Jew hatred as an oppressed minority, but we also have to meet them on their own terms and really understand anti Zionism as a distinct ideology of anti Jewish hate that is distinct from classical anti Semitism and from medieval anti Judaism. Then we can show that anti Zionism itself is hate and anti Zionism is wrong. It's a form of anti Jewish hate.

[Jesse Brown]

It's a hard idea to get across. The other slogan, anti Zionism is not anti Semitism, has already gone viral and being kind of cast into stone for people.

[Adam Lewis Klein]

Anti Zionism is a hate movement.

[Jesse Brown]

When I began this series, I thought that anti Zionism was anti Semitism. But I set out to investigate that belief, to subject it to challenges and scrutiny to see if it would hold up. It didn't. But it's no less of a threat to Jews for that fact. That's the first bit of clarity that I took from my conversation with Adam. The second is that anti Zionism is not pro Palestinian. It has no practical, actionable plan to free Palestinians into statehood or even to free them from violence. Yes, anti Zionism asserts Palestine will be free, but how this certainty of a Palestinian state stretching from the river to the sea is chanted and repeated in the language of prophecy. But prophecy is not strategy. Butchering 1200 Israelis so they will massacre tens of thousands of Palestinians, well, that was a strategy, but not a strategy for freedom or for peace. It was a strategy intended to light a flame of hatred around the world, to pull all of us into an endless cycle of destruction. And it's working.

[Adam Lewis Klein]

Anti Zionism is not just spreading through the Diaspora while being focused on Israel. I think that anti Zionism is a larger complex through which the conflict itself has been sustained. And that in order to reframe and even maybe solve this conflict, what we have to do is stop talking about Israelis versus versus Palestinians and start talking about anti Zionism as a driver of endless wars. And so I see anti Zionism as the basic driver of this conflict. It's the desire to annihilate Israel, to reject Israel's sovereignty, to reject the right of a Jewish state, and to use violence to achieve those aims. And that is what has driven the conflict from the beginning. And it's caused immense suffering for Palestinians.

[Jesse Brown]

At this point, I don't think that this can be discussed as an opinion. It's just factual to say that anti Zionism has been a catastrophe for Palestinians. But who am I, or who is Adam for that matter, to say what's best for Palestinians?

[Ali Abunimah]

My name is Ali Abawad. I'm a Palestinian non violence activist. I'm the founder of Taghir Movement. Taghir, the Palestinian national nonviolence movement.

[Jesse Brown]

Ali lives in Bethlehem in the West Bank. His mother was in the plo. He says he grew up watching her getting beaten and humiliated by Israeli agents. Later in his life, he was shot by an Israeli settler while he was changing a tire. And as you'll hear, that's not the worst of what he has suffered at the hands of Israelis. And yet he's dedicated his life to advocating for nonviolence to Palestinians and to Israelis. I asked him what he thinks about the harm being done to Jews around the world in the name of anti Zionism.

[Ali Abunimah]

When people take sides, whether you are pro Israeli or pro Palestine, you're not helping anyone.

[Jesse Brown]

Ali tells me a story about a recent trip he took to Europe. After he gave his presentation, he was approached by an emotional young pro Palestine activist who was not herself Palestinian. Ali says that she was in a state of disbelief that a real live Palestinian person could be in favor of nonviolence.

[Ali Abunimah]

Listen, Jesse, I came from France and I met the foreign minister of France and I met many Jewish leaders, Muslim leaders, Palestinian activists as well. The lady In France, who came to me after my presentation, she was wondering like, where do I live? She's sure I'm not Palestinian because I speak about solution. And she was so angry, almost yelling on me. Then I said, okay, you know, you are here. It's nice to live in Paris, come up with whatever statement you believe. But believe me, as long as you're doing this, we keep dying. Because this is the fuel that gives Bibi Netanyahu and his right wing government to try to justify their acts against us. But the one who are dying are us every day. And she remains silent and she start crying because, you know, because she heard it from a Palestinian. We need a lot of help and a lot of support. We don't need you to hate Jews. If you are pro Palestine, be pro Jewish people to stand for the Palestinian right, not to be against Jewish people. If you are pro Israel, don't think that the Israeli security will be built ever at the expense of Palestinian dignity, freedom and rights. That's obvious. Believe me, Jesse, it's much comfortable and easier for me to take the Palestinian just side because I believe in my just cause, especially with my background. I was trained on Kalashnikov when I was 15. My mother was a political prisoner for more than five years. I served four years in the Israeli prison. In 2000, my brother was murdered very violently by an Israeli soldier. You think it's so easy for me to sit here and talk about recognition of my enemies, Talk about like empathy of my enemies? It's not easy. But I know on the other side that I'm not the only victim in the Middle East. I could see my enemies as victims. And this is where solutions start when we humanize each other. If you are not part of the problem, try to be part of the solution. But if you cannot be part of the solution, don't be part of the problem. Don't fuel this conflict. Fanatics will not help Palestinian to be free. You know, I was invited here and I heard a lot about you. And I know that what is happening to Jewish people is so hard. I mean, I have Jewish friends who cannot walk with a Kiba in France. I know and I experienced this. But on the other hand I said I'm going to bring my voice whether people agree or disagree with me. I am non violence activist who doesn't label or hate or criticize anyone. I'm here with a message to welcome and to engage people in that approach that I believe that will lead both of us to that future. Otherwise we just keep killing each other. You know, I'm not here for hope. I'm not telling people. Let's have hope. Let's just march together and raise the peace flag. No, no, this is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about help us to find the way from this darkness. Help us, because enough is enough, believe me.

[Jesse Brown]

What do you think when you hear people trying to globalize this movement? When you hear people say that this is about dismantling Zionism everywhere? This is about white supremacy around the world, it's about settler colonialism. What do you think when you hear people say globalize the intifada?

[Ali Abunimah]

We should globalize the solution. That's what we should globalize. We should globalize nonviolence values and nonviolence ideology. I think we have to see each other as human first. Number two, we have to understand that whether we like it or not, none of us going anywhere, both sides will fight until the last drop of blood because this is where they belong and no one wants them. If we think that the world want the Jews, we have to study history. If the Jews think that Palestinians will just take their luggage and leave to the Middle east, they're doing a huge mistake. Look at the hate and look at like anti, Semitism, Islamophobia. It's like the world is getting so much fuel for hate and then we end up divided, conflicted, but back home we keep dying. Why this earthquake has to happen for people to wake up. And with my sorrow, they wake up with hate. These two identities belong to that piece of land we both call home. We have to understand that whether we like it or not, none of us going anywhere. To all of those who will say, let's kill them all, let's destroy them all, let's transfer them all, good luck. And what kind of solution? We need a solution that will guarantee these two identities. The minute that we stop arguing identities and changing behaviors, solution will start. My problem is not with Judaism or Zionism. My problem is with the occupation. Why we keep going around the problem and keep falling in these arguments, that endless argument. Because you're not going to change me, I'm not going to change you. But for sure we need to change each other behaviors. This political reality has to be changed, not the people. I mean, people have to choose who they are, it's up to them. But people are not free to humiliate other or to control others.

[Adam Lewis Klein]

That's it.

[Jesse Brown]

I know the criticism that I'm going to receive for even speaking with you. Oh look, he found the one Palestinian who thinks that we should have peace and nonviolence. Everybody else is talking about the legitimacy of armed resistance. He found the one guy. It's tokenism.

[Ali Abunimah]

I'm not here to discuss legitimacy of arm or unlegitimacy of armed struggle. I'm here to tell that do you want to be right or do you want to succeed? Because this is what keep going in the conflict. Both sides feel right for all of these years of conflict. What we have got so far. Look at Gaza today. Gaza was smashed. Look at the whole society in Israel living under collective trauma.

[Jesse Brown]

Ali, you support nonviolence, but are you in the minority as a Palestinian who supports nonviolence?

[Ali Abunimah]

We are not the minority. We are the active minority that represents silent big majority.

[Jesse Brown]

How do you know?

[Ali Abunimah]

How do I know how many Palestinians in the west bank leave Gaza aside. Gaza has been destroyed. How many Palestinians are engaging themselves directly in killing Jews every day? How many?

[Jesse Brown]

I don't know, but I think it's probably very few.

[Ali Abunimah]

Why you think? And we live behind gates and we live with the most miserable conditions. We live without food, we get humiliated and killed by settlers. We're not able to harvest our olives. Why we don't suicide ourselves every day, bombing ourselves.

[Jesse Brown]

Why?

[Ali Abunimah]

Because we want to live. Because we know that very well life still has value. And that's why what gives me hope, believe me, is my people. But also is the majority of Jewish people in Israel who I know that they want peace. Yesterday. I experience this every day. I see Jews standing for Palestinians, threatening their lives, being beaten up, getting arrested by the Israeli army to protect Palestinians. And this is not fake. This is happening. Standing against violence is not a favor to Jews. Actually, it's a favor to my freedom because this is the only way. I'm not sure that my freedom will be built on Jewish bodies and graves. My freedom has to pass through Jewish hearts and mind to wake up and say, these Palestinians doesn't deserve to be occupied or deserve to be destroyed like what we did in Gaza. This is not gonna happen by threatening each.

[Jesse Brown]

For the record, Ali believes in a two state solution achieved through nonviolence. It's a position that seems so impossible right now that people just laugh at it even more than they used to.

[Ali Abunimah]

The solution sounds impossible. Then, okay, so what is the alternative? Can you see any alternative approach for us?

[Jesse Brown]

I can't. I don't see any other solution for the Middle East. But Ali's question assumes that a solution is what the Middle east is looking for. And I don't have a lot of faith in that because there is an alternative to peace, it's called permanent suffering for everyone involved. It's not a solution to anything. But for as long as I've been around, that's the option that's been chosen in the Middle East. But I don't live in the Middle east. And so for years I've just opted out. I didn't think that I could help the situation by talking about it in Canada. And I didn't want to hurt anyone either. I was terrified of the power this has just as a conversation topic to enrage people, to harm people, and to destroy relationships. So I put up a wall. Of course, if there's one thing that we can agree is true about this conflict, it's that it is not constrained by walls. It's come for us here, but I'm not going anywhere. This series was made possible by the generous support of the Bissell Family Foundation, George Berger, Dan Debeau, Gideon Hayden, Daniel Klaas, Norman Levine, Nanette Okun, Leslie Scanlon, Marjorie Skolnick, the York School, and Lee Zentner. Thanks to them and many others, we finished making these episodes. But now they need to be heard by many more people. We think that the stories and voices that you heard on this podcast have the power to make people reconsider their words and their actions, to think about how their neighbors are being harmed, and to change the course that we are all currently on. We want what is happening here to reach an audience of younger listeners and not just Jewish ones. We want to take its message to platforms like TikTok and YouTube, where many people are otherwise being served a constant stream of divisive and hateful content about Jews. Lastly, we want to take this series to universities and colleges across the country for town hall discussions about how to make campuses safe again. For Jews. To do any of that, we need financial support. Those who donate to this project will receive a tax deductible donation receipt through our project partner, the Canadian Jewish News, a registered journalism organization with the CRA. Contributing is easy. Just email me personally at jesseanadaland.com I spell my name J-E-S s eanadaland.com I will take you through it. What is happening here was written and reported by me, Jesse Brown. Research and story editing by Kate Minsky. Original music by so Called with Fred Wesley Sound design, mixing and mastering by Kate Caleb Thompson. Editorial input from Michael Freeman. Thank you to Stephen Marsh, Jonathan Rothman, Mark Musselman, David Kaufman and the entire team here at Canadaland for their input and for their support to help us continue to do journalism like this. Become a canadaland [e-mail] join thank you for listening.