Capitalism: Market Failure | Canadaland Investigates x Scene On Radio

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Capitalism: Market Failure | Canadaland Investigates x Scene On Radio"

Release Date: April 2, 2025
Hosts: John B. Win and Ellen McGirt
Produced by: Canadaland in collaboration with Scene On Radio

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Introduction to the Episode

The episode opens with an introduction by Noor Azri, one of the producers of The Copernic Affair. She highlights a special collaboration with Scene On Radio, a Peabody-nominated podcast known for dissecting powerful societal systems. This season, Scene On Radio delves into capitalism, exploring whether it exacerbates societal problems or if critiques against it are misguided.

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Understanding Capitalism's Dual Nature

John B. Win and Ellen McGirt engage in a nuanced discussion about capitalism, challenging simplistic narratives. They present two contrasting viewpoints:

• Optimistic View: Capitalism has unleashed human ingenuity, fostered investment, technological advancements, and significantly improved the material lives of many globally.

• Critical View: Conversely, capitalism has also led to exploitation, unprecedented inequality, alienation, and severe environmental degradation.

Notable Quote:
Ellen McGirt (01:39): "Capitalism is more about values than just economic theory. It influences what we care about and how we organize our relationships around work and wealth."

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Current Crises Highlighting Market Failures

The hosts discuss various contemporary crises that shed light on capitalism's shortcomings:

1. Global Pandemic and Economic Shock: The COVID-19 pandemic exacerbated existing economic disparities and exposed vulnerabilities in the system.

2. Political Instability: Attacks on democracy in the US and Europe have intensified distrust in capitalist institutions.

3. Wars and Climate Emergency: Conflicts in Europe and the Middle East, coupled with escalating climate crises, have disrupted global markets and highlighted the unsustainable nature of perpetual growth.

Notable Statistics:
John B. Win (16:02): "A survey by Edelman found that 56% globally believe capitalism does more harm than good."

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Case Studies of Market Failures

The episode delves into specific sectors where capitalism has notably failed to deliver equitable and sustainable outcomes:

1. Childcare:

   • Issue: Childcare services are unaffordable for many families, with low wages for workers making the sector unsustainable.
   • Example: Cassandra Brooks, owner of Little Believers Academy, struggles to balance fair wages for teachers with affordable rates for parents.
   • Quote:
     Ellen McGirt (31:13): "Childcare is too expensive for most families to comfortably afford. The cost can be a crippling burden."

2. Healthcare and Health Insurance:

   • The high cost and unequal access to healthcare services highlight significant disparities within capitalist systems.

3. Housing:

   • Issue: Millions grapple with unaffordable rent and homeownership, pointing to a failure in providing essential shelter.

4. Food Accessibility:

   • Problem: Low-income communities often lack access to nutritious and affordable food options, despite the abundance in supermarkets.

Notable Quote:
John B. Win (34:27): "Childcare is just one of many market failures. The more essential the service, the more likely the free market won't provide it reliably or affordably."

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Public Perception and Corporate Responses

The discussion shifts to how public perception of capitalism is shifting:

• Growing Skepticism: Younger generations in the US are increasingly viewing capitalism negatively, with 47% expressing distrust.

• Corporate ESG Movement:

  • Positive Aspect: Companies are adopting Environmental, Social, and Governance (ESG) principles to address societal and environmental concerns.
  • Backlash: Critics label ESG as "woke capitalism," arguing it distracts from profit motives and threatens economic stability.

Notable Quote:
James (19:03): "We have to overthrow this system which is eating the planet."

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The Inherent Pervasiveness of Capitalism

Capitalism's deep-rooted influence in society is emphasized:

• Invisible Influence:

  • Capitalism shapes daily life to such an extent that its mechanisms often go unnoticed.

• Global Dominance:

  • Even countries with self-described communist regimes, like China, exhibit strong capitalist traits, further underscoring capitalism's global entrenchment.

Notable Quote:
John B. Win (22:27): "Capitalism shapes the lives of humans and other living things, arguably more than any other social force."

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Historical Context and Future Outlook

The hosts outline the series' trajectory, which aims to:

• Trace Capitalism's Origins: Starting from medieval times, exploring its evolution through the Industrial Revolution to the present day.

• Examine Impact on Society: Focusing on how capitalism has affected regular working people, cultural values, and societal structures.

• Explore Critiques and Alternatives: Investigating both left and right-wing critiques and considering real-world models that propose reforms or radical transformations of the economic system.

Notable Quote:
Ellen McGirt (42:12): "We could define capitalism's essence more clearly and see our choices more clearly regarding how to organize our relationships around work, wealth, and essential needs."

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Hosts' Perspectives and Positionality

Both hosts share their backgrounds and perspectives:

• John B. Win: A white cisgender man with a history of investigative reporting on capitalism's impacts.

• Ellen McGirt: A cisgender woman of color, formerly with Fortune magazine, bringing a critical lens to discussions on race, equity, and capitalism.

Notable Quote:
Ellen McGirt (44:05): "I've been an outlier, asking big questions about the failings and injustices of the business world as we know it."

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Conclusion and Series Direction

The episode sets the stage for an in-depth exploration of capitalism, emphasizing a balanced approach that neither wholly condemns nor uncritically praises the system. Instead, it seeks to understand its complexities, historical development, and the multifaceted impacts on society and the environment.

Final Notable Quote:
John B. Win (46:48): "We can choose to remake our economic system. Over the coming episodes, we aim to peel back the layers and understand capitalism more deeply."

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Key Takeaways

• Capitalism's Dual Impact: While fostering innovation and growth, capitalism also exacerbates inequality and environmental degradation.

• Market Failures: Essential services like childcare, healthcare, housing, and food accessibility often fail under free-market dynamics.

• Shifting Perceptions: Increasing skepticism, especially among younger generations, is challenging the traditional narratives of capitalism's infallibility.

• Corporate Responsiveness: ESG initiatives represent a corporate acknowledgment of capitalism's shortcomings, though they face significant backlash.

• Historical and Future Perspectives: Understanding capitalism's evolution is crucial for envisioning and implementing meaningful reforms or alternatives.

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This episode serves as a foundational exploration into capitalism, advocating for a critical examination of its structures and encouraging listeners to engage in conversations about its future trajectory.

Transcript

[Noor Azri]

Canada Land funded by you. Hey, I'm Noor Azri, one of the producers who worked on the Copernic Affair, a Canada Land investigation into the life and case of Hassan Diab. This week I'm dropping in to share something special made by our friends at Scene on Radio. Scene on Radio is a two time Peabody nominated podcast that holds a magnifying glass up to the systems of power tying Western culture together for better or for worse. Each season they get down to the roots of today's make or break issues. Rampant racism, climate change, creeping authoritarianism by hitting the streets to look for clues on how we got here. In their newest season, longtime host John B. Win is joined by journalist Ellen McGirt to take on the world's most prominent economic system, capitalism. John and Ellen venture to find out if capitalism is causing more problems than it's solving, or if calls to move away from capitalism are ill advised. This is the first of 12 episodes in the season of Scene on Radio. All episodes of Scene on Radio Capitalism are available now. You can listen to every season of Scene on [e-mail] Scene as in movie scene. That's S C E N E on radio.org or you can get it wherever you get your podcasts.

[James]

And so James, he gets to the front door, he puts his key into the lock. He unlocks it and with a sledgehammer.

[John B. Win]

In one hand, he attempts to push the door open.

[James]

And so James, as he's pressing the door barely open, he's staring into this crack, trying to make out what's going on inside of his house.

[Ellen McGirt]

And.

[James]

And then suddenly a set of eyes meet his from behind the door. And before James can do anything, this man that is standing inside of his house says to James, hey there, I'm Mr. Ballin.

[John B. Win]

And what you just experienced is just a taste of what you can expect when you listen to the Mr. Ballin podcast. In every episode, I peel back the layers of the strange, the dark and the mysterious. From unexplained phenomena that challenge everything you thought you knew about reality to true crimes that keep you up at night, I cover it all. Listen to the Mr. Ballin podcast Strange, Dark and Mysterious Stories for free on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts, prime members can listen early and ad free on the Amazon Music app.

[James]

Hey, as you know, we are very excited to give away some ad space to some excellent Canadian companies. And it's extraordinary the cool ideas that Canadian entrepreneurs have. Check this one out. Campa. I'm a very indoorsy guy I'm not much of a camper, but I feel guilty about it. I feel like I'm depriving my kids of an important Canadian experience. I probably would go camping, but for this like, huge disincentive, which is like how expensive it is to get camping gear. Well, Campa is a camping equipment rental service designed to make outdoor adventures easy and hassle free. Why hasn't somebody thought of this sooner? This is excellent. Campa provides high quality camping gear for individuals, groups and organizations, making sure that you got everything you need for a seamless outdoor experience. They have a comfort package. That sounds good to me. Pots, pans, tents, sleeping bags, a coffee, coffee press, essential pickup and drop off within the GTA are included in your rental fee. They're offering Canadaland listeners 10% off of your first rental. Visit rentcampa.com, use the code CANADALAND at checkout that is RENTCAMPA c-a m p a.com for 10% off of your first gear rental. This episode of Canadaland is brought to you by Hot Docs Canadian International Documentary Festival. Canadaland is proud to be be a media partner of the Hot Docs Festival. I'm so happy that it's back. This is like the world's greatest documentary festival and it's right here in Toronto from April 24 to May 4. Go watch a feature documentary in a theater and watch them before you can watch them anywhere else. Go buy your tickets now. Packages and single tickets are on sale at HotDocs CA Festival. H o t d o c s CA Festival. I'll be there.

[John Fullerton]

Now here's the original Morgan building right on the corner. This big block with a, with an ad for a movie called Dumb Money in the Window. It was built on the same location, 23 Wall Street.

[John B. Win]

I'm standing with John Fullerton at the corner of Wall street and Broad, right across from the New York Stock Exchange.

[John Fullerton]

This is the iconic Morgan Building. It never had the name Morgan on it because if you had to, if you didn't know, you didn't need to know. Now you had an yeah, my first job out of the training program was I was sitting right above those flags on the fifth floor.

[John B. Win]

Now, in his early 60s, John is living a very different life than what he imagined when he was a fast rising star at JP Morgan.

[John Fullerton]

I think I was one of the youngest MDs ever promoted at the bank.

[John B. Win]

At the time Maryland for managing director. He earned that title before his 30th birthday. It felt good, John says, because he was excelling in a Job that he admits made him feel like a member of the elite, but also because he believed his company played an important role in the world by financing and advancing the global economy.

[John Fullerton]

And, you know, we took great pride in having a JP Morgan managing director business card. That was, that was my identity.

[John B. Win]

But the day came a few years later when things started to shift for John. He's working at Morgan headquarters in New York. He and his wife have bought a house in the suburbs and started a family. In 1993, he gets yet another promotion.

[John Fullerton]

So anyway, I got put in charge of the global commodities and commodity derivatives business.

[John B. Win]

And he finds himself one day on a flight to Asia to meet with his team there. But his second daughter has just been born. And it's a particular Sunday in June.

[John Fullerton]

So I was sitting in Singapore Air, first class champagne, noon flight, Sunday, Father's Day. I had the New York Times in my lap with all the time in the world to read it and, you know, Mr. Big Shot @ a young age, I should be happy. And I was miserable. And the reason I was miserable is I didn't want to be leaving for probably a two week trip when I just had a newborn at home and it was Father's Day and I was sitting in an airplane. So I began to question, like, what am I doing? And so I looked down and on my lap is the New York Times. And on the right hand on the.

[John B. Win]

Front page of that newspaper is an article about the billionaire publishing mogul Walter Annenberg. He's announced he's donating several hundred million dollars to three major universities and to the New Jersey prep school he attended as a kid. You could say John Fullerton sees his future flash before his eyes. And maybe surprisingly, he doesn't like what he sees.

[John Fullerton]

It just seemed insane to me that, you know, I would spend my whole life on airplanes on Father's Day, metaphorically, in order to write a couple checks to institutions that didn't need the money in order to put my name on the wall or get an article written about me in the New York Times. And no disrespect to Walter Annenberg, I mean, he was doing what we were supposed to do. But I decided that day I wasn't going to do that. And it took me until 2001 to walk out the door. But that was really the day I not only quit Morgan, but quit my career.

[John B. Win]

That moment sent Fullerton on a journey of many years and many more pivotal moments of discovery. He didn't know what was next. Maybe something in education, working with charter schools Just months after he resigned from JP Morgan in September 2001, he happened to be in lower Manhattan when the planes slammed into the World Trade center towers.

[John Fullerton]

So I got to the street at City hall literally as the second fireball was exploding out of the building. And I didn't see the plane go into the building, but I saw the fireball.

[John B. Win]

As for so many other people, that traumatic day shook John deeply and really.

[John Fullerton]

Triggered this search for what the hell's going on in the world? And that got me reading books that, as I always say, bankers don't read.

[John B. Win]

Those included books about human made climate change and the threat of ecological collapse.

[John Fullerton]

I used to think of it save the whale, save the owl, but it never occurred to me that it was a whole systemic thing. And it certainly never occurred to me that the root cause of it was our economic system breaking the planet. And when that realization happened, you know, I then sort of looked in the mirror and realized it was young kids like me who think they're so smart, who are actually driving because finance really drives the economy. It's what the economy is in service to financial capital in more ways than we realize. And so I had this sort of just, you know, it wasn't like a single shock event. It was this like rolling awareness that, oh my God, you know, everything that I believed in is actually, you know, profoundly destructive.

[John B. Win]

After more years of study and reflection, Fullerton would re emerge as an economic reformer and teacher. In 2010, he founded a nonprofit called the Capital Institute, which, though it might not sound like it from the name, offers a radical critique of capitalism in its current form.

[John Fullerton]

The gig's up. The gig's up. And we've got to find a new source of prosperity than continuous extraction.

[John B. Win]

Fullerton is convinced that one way or another, deep change is coming. Change so big it might be more profound than the shift from the medieval to the modern age. In fact, he thinks that shift has.

[John Fullerton]

Begun certainly by 2050. We will refer to this period as something different than the modern age. And I think it will be about the work is about this coming to grips with the reality that the entire economic system paradigm that we've built has run its course and can't continue. And we'll be deep into the transformation into something different. And I don't think anyone can possibly have any confidence to know what that's going to look like.

[John B. Win]

So, Alan, we're going to be hearing more from John Fullerton later in the series.

[Ellen McGirt]

I look forward to it. He seems really interesting.

[John B. Win]

Ellen McGirt, welcome. You are a Seasoned, award winning business and economics reporter and editor, currently editor in chief at the online magazine Design observer and my co host for season seven, I am delighted to say.

[Ellen McGirt]

Well, thank you for that warm welcome. I am thrilled to be here, John. I've been a huge fan of CNN radio for years and you know, John Fullerton's story is emblematic of so many conversations I'm having with business people, including top corporate executives. Now, admittedly, Fullerton is an extreme case.

[John B. Win]

Yeah.

[Ellen McGirt]

To go from managing director at JP Morgan, one of the iconic banking corporations on the planet, to becoming someone who doesn't want to just tweak the economic system but wants to totally transform it. I'd say that's pretty rare.

[John B. Win]

That's one reason, as you can imagine, that I wanted to interview him. But another is that so much of what he's saying in his critique of the current system and his ideas about how it needs to change are actually not so unusual these days.

[Ellen McGirt]

That's quite true. Even in the business world, quite a few people are circling these issues, some very reluctantly. No question about that. But there is a growing sense that our economic system just can't go on this way and has to change somehow.

[John B. Win]

You know, folks might think a series called Capitalism is going to be about economic theory. Dollars and cents and pesos and euros and yen, but I think you and I agree this series is really about values.

[Ellen McGirt]

Exactly right. What is important? What do we care about? What kind of people do we want to be, individually and collectively? And really, is this I'm waving my hands around at the world the best we can do?

[John B. Win]

There are things that people everywhere claim to believe in every culture, every major spiritual tradition. You should care for others. Taking way more than your share is bad. So is the abuse of power.

[Ellen McGirt]

If you make a mess, you should clean it up. Work is a virtue and should be rewarded. We also like to say, put your money where your mouth is, meaning your actions, including your financial actions, ought to be consistent with your beliefs.

[John B. Win]

So if our economic system creates conditions where the values we espouse are grossly violated routinely as part of the regular course of things, as people literally go about their business according to the rules of the game, that could mean we really don't care about those things we claim to care about.

[Ellen McGirt]

Or it could mean we're living with an economic system that's out of alignment with our most basic values. And if that's true, how did that happen? And isn't it time we did something about it?

[John B. Win]

From the Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University welcome to Scene ON RADIO Season 7 Capitalism. This is episode one. I'm John Biewen, producer and host of the show.

[Ellen McGirt]

And I'm Ellen McGirt.

[John B. Win]

People can and do tell simple one sided stories about capitalism. Here's one. It unleashed human ingenuity, leveraged the power of investment and technology and competition, and sparked unimaginable leaps in the material lives of most people on the planet.

[Ellen McGirt]

Here's another. Capitalism triggered a new epoch of exploitation and extraction and produced unheard of inequality and alienation, all while doing catastrophic damage to our natural world.

[John B. Win]

Is either story too simple by itself? What if both are essentially true?

[Ellen McGirt]

Here in the 2020s, the world is on edge. And it seems on the edge of something. We've been living through all these crises. A global pandemic and the economic shock that came with it. Attacks on democracy in the US and elsewhere, a major war in Europe which shook up world markets for energy and food. War in the Middle east and the surging climate emergency.

[John B. Win]

All that fresh turmoil comes on top of longer term economic changes that over decades have disrupted lives and eroded people's hopes about the future for themselves and their kids.

[Ellen McGirt]

Stir in rapid technological change. The latest and biggest AI which could make our lives better or possibly much worse.

[John B. Win]

With all of this churn churning, a lot of people are asking sharp questions about the institutions and systems that have shaped our world, including capitalism. There's a new survey from the public relations firm Edelman, serving over 34,000 people around the world. The firm found 56% of respondents that capitalism does more harm than good. In the US 47% had a dis.

[Ellen McGirt]

Track trust of capitalism.

[James]

A growing majority of young adults in.

[Noor Azri]

The US have a more negative view of capitalism, according to a new study.

[James]

From Axios and Momentive.

[Ellen McGirt]

According to the poll, let's not overstate things. In the us the world's leading economic power, a majority of people still approve of capitalism and say they prefer it to the alternative that's usually offered in these surveys, socialism. But why are more people questioning capitalism? Well, let's start with soaring eye popping inequality.

[James]

There is something profoundly wrong in our country when the top 1/10 of 1%, not 1%, 1/10 of 1%, owns almost as much wealth as the bottom 90%.

[John B. Win]

That is immoral. That is wrong. There was also the loss of millions of manufacturing jobs in rich countries under globalization over the last number of decades. This created an opening for populist politicians on the left and the right to attack the free trade policies that presidents from both parties had pushed for decades. You go to Ohio, Pennsylvania, you go anywhere you want, Secretary Clinton, and you will see devastation where manufacturing is down 30, 40, sometimes 50%. NAFTA is the worst trade deal may be ever signed anywhere, but certainly ever signed in this country.

[Ellen McGirt]

And now let's pause to point out that once he got into office, Donald Trump didn't do much to help working people or their communities. Yes, he negotiated changes to nafta, the North American Free Trade Agreement, but his biggest domestic policy achievement was a massive tax cut that mostly benefited corporations and the wealthiest Americans.

[John B. Win]

Nonetheless, Trump's anti free trade rhetoric struck a chord with millions of people who felt overlooked and even abused by a global Let the market do its thing capitalist economy.

[Ellen McGirt]

The widening chasm between struggling workers and billionaire owners has also fueled a reawakened labor movement.

[John B. Win]

Amazon warehouse workers in New York made history last Friday, voting to unionize its Staten island facility.

[Noor Azri]

It's Amazon versus the people and the people of smoke.

[Ellen McGirt]

Focus. There's now first ever unions at some 200 Starbucks, an Apple store, Amazon, Google, REI, Trader Joe's, Kickstarter, and a gaming division of Microsoft. Turning now to the auto workers strike.

[John Fullerton]

The union says the walkout could expand this week as negotiations continue today with.

[Ellen McGirt]

The country's three biggest automakers. Another major source of alarm about capitalism, the increasing sense that an economic system devoted above all to profit and growth is driving the world off an ecological cliff.

[James]

Not only will this be the hottest July on record, this will be the hottest month human civilization has ever seen. We have to overthrow this system which is eating the planet.

[John B. Win]

Perpetual growth.

[James]

Yeah, we're bursting through all the environmental boundaries and screwing the planet already. You want to double it? Double all that? Double it again. Keep doubling it. It's madness. We've got to go straight to the heart of capitalism and overthrow it.

[John B. Win]

That's the writer and activist George Monbiot. Is that what we're talking about? Overthrowing capitalism? The actual pitchforks, or whatever their equivalent would be in the 21st century, don't seem to be out in big numbers yet. But Deloitte's annual global survey of more than 2,000 C suite leaders found that 62% of leaders feel worried about climate change all or most of the time. Corporate leaders are feeling some heat. But 82% of executives say they've been personally impacted by extreme climate events in some way, and their stakeholders are pressuring them to act.

[Ellen McGirt]

That pressure on corporate execs isn't just about climate.

[James]

It's been a breakout year for environmental.

[Ellen McGirt]

Social and governance issues known Better as.

[James]

ESG and Leslie Picker's been over the.

[Ellen McGirt]

Past decade, companies and investors move to embrace esg, a business philosophy that declares a concern for things other than just profits. Corporations pledged to add more black and brown people to their management teams and corporate boards to reduce their carbon footprint and in a few cases, to say no to the whopping executive pay raises that are now typical in corporate America.

[John B. Win]

These were relatively small reflections reforms or promised reforms. Some would say window dressing. But still the backlash followed. Right wing politicians attacked what they call woke capitalism. ESG is a clear and present danger to consumers and to our democracy. An unelected cabal of global elites is using ESG to hijack our capitalist system, capture corporations and threaten hard earned dollars of American workers.

[Ellen McGirt]

Florida is pulling $2 billion worth of.

[John B. Win]

Steel state investments managed by BlackRock over its commitment to a woke agenda and ESG funding.

[James]

We are going to kneecap ESG in the state of Florida.

[John B. Win]

The backlash has had an effect, at least in the US. A report in late 2023 found that the biggest investment companies, including BlackRock and Vanguard, had dramatically cut back their support for environmental and social proposals inside the companies they back now.

[Ellen McGirt]

I'm not ready to call time of death on esg, but I will concede that capitalists are getting it from all sides at the same time. If you put aside the rhetoric and look at the facts on the ground, capitalism looks more dominant than ever, more unchallenged.

[John B. Win]

Even the world's biggest self described communist country is now, in a real sense, a capitalist superpower.

[Noor Azri]

China's stocks are jumping today as Chinese top finance regulators point to more economic openings to foreign institutions.

[Ellen McGirt]

The fact is, capitalism shapes the lives of humans and other living things, arguably more than any other social force. It moves mountains, and I do mean that literally. But it's also half invisible to us. So pervasive. So much the water we swim in now is that we can have trouble seeing where it begins and ends in our world and in our lives.

[John B. Win]

It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism. The philosopher Frederick Jameson is supposed to have said that. Others have tweaked the quote to say it's easier to imagine the end of capitalism than what comes after.

[James]

This episode is brought to you by the Oat Company. You think of an Oat bar, they should be healthy, right? They should not be packed full of added sugar or fake sweeteners or preservatives. But a lot of them are not. The Oat Company based in St. John's Newfoundland, these are people who looked at all them oat bars on the market and they thought, we can do better than this. This is garbage. We can make oat bars that taste good and that are actually good for you. These are genuinely delicious. Best of all, they do not include dozens of mystery ingredients. Just like four to five real ingredients in each bar. Sourced in Canada, Alberta, grown organic oats, blueberries from Nova Scotia, sea salt from Bonavista, right on their own coast. Even their nice packaging is printed just down the road from us in Mississauga. Don't just buy Canadian to feel like a patriot. Upgrade your snacks with a better product. The wild blueberry oat bar is really delicious. It's just a better product. Try the Oat Company. Today the Oat Company has an exclusive offer for Canadaland listeners. Head over to oatcompany.com and use the code CANADALAND20 for 20% off your order. They ship across Canada. You can enjoy them anywhere. That is oatcompany.com code is Canadaland20. Hey. This episode is brought to you by Hot Docs, the HotDocs Canadian international documentary Festival. They are back. They are North America's leading documentary festival. Its 32nd edition will take place in Toronto from April 24 to May 4. This is like a cultural point of pride for those of us in the like journalism nonfiction space that we have this wonderful festival here. This year's Hot Docs Festival showcases over 110 captivating stories by visionary filmmakers on intriguing subjects from Canada and around the world. Hot Docs offers audiences an unparalleled opportunity to explore a wide range of topics. The venues include the Hot Docs, Ted Rogers Cinema in the Annex and Tiff Lightbox. Those are two excellent Toronto movie theaters. I love watching a feature documentary in the theater. Canadaland is a media partner of Hot dogs. Tickets are on sale now. You can buy ticket packages for hot dogs or single tickets to specific documentaries right now. Go have a look at the lineup this year. It's fantastic. To learn more about the Hot Docs, festivals programs, film titles and screening Schedules, go to HotDocs CA Festival. That's HotDocs H O T D O C S CA Festival. Check it out. Amazon presents Jenny vs.

[John Fullerton]

The Sun.

[James]

An absolute giant ball of scorching plasma. The sun has one temperature setting hot as. But Jenny shopped on Amazon and bought 8 ounces of SPF, a beach umbrella.

[John Fullerton]

And a large brimmed hat.

[James]

Hey son. Jenny just cooked you.

[John Fullerton]

Save the everyday with deals from Amazon.

[James]

Hey, as you know, we are very excited to Give away some ad space to some excellent Canadian companies. And it's extraordinary the cool ideas that Canadian entrepreneurs have. Check this one out. Campa. I'm a very indoorsy guy. I'm not much of a camper, but I feel guilty about it. I feel like I'm depriving my kids of an important Canadian experience. I probably would go camping, but for this, like, huge disincentive, which is like how expensive it is to get camping gear. Well, Campa is a camping equipment rental service designed to make outdoor adventures easy and hassle free. Why hasn't somebody thought of this sooner? This is excellent. Campa provides high quality camping gear for individuals, groups and organizations, making sure that you got everything you need for a seamless outdoor experience. They have a comfort package. That sounds good to me. Pots, pans, tents, sleeping bags, a coffee press, essential pickup and drop off within the GTA are included in your rental fee. They're offering Canada and listeners 10% off of your first rental. Visit rentcampa.com, use the code Canadaland at checkout that is rentcampa c-a m p a.com for 10% off of your first gear rental.

[John B. Win]

Hi. Hi, I'm John. I'm here to talk to Ellen. This excursion was closer to home for me. I'm showing up at a child care center called Little Believers Academy in Clayton, North Carolina outside of Raleigh.

[Ellen McGirt]

Oh, I wish we had the pictures.

[John B. Win]

Trust me, we are talking off the charts adorableness. Dozens of little ones, from infants and toddlers to the pre K 4 year olds. They and their teachers are spread across several colorful classrooms in two small buildings and a big outdoor space with playsets and toys.

[Noor Azri]

Hi, my name is Cassandra Brooks and I am the owner of Little Believers Academy. We have two locations, one in Clayton and one in Garner.

[John B. Win]

Cassandra founded her first daycare business in 2012.

[Noor Azri]

I got laid off some time ago when I worked in corporate America and I started volunteering and I really found a passion and a niche in working with the children.

[John B. Win]

She went and got her master's degree in education, then started with a small home based center.

[Noor Azri]

And I just really, you know, just really enjoyed it. I felt more connected to my community. I felt like I was really impacting, you know, children, making an impact on the world. And so that's just how we kept going from there. We gotta get some soap, sir. There we go.

[John B. Win]

Can you rub it in the infant and toddler room? The two year olds have just come in from outside. Teacher Charlene Brooks, no relation to Cassandra, is helping them. One by one to wash their hands.

[Noor Azri]

There we go, buddy.

[John B. Win]

Wash, wash, wash, wash, wash, wash, wash, wash.

[Noor Azri]

I know you love the water. I know. I love working with children. To see them grow and mature in just the little stages, I think brings a smile to my heart.

[John B. Win]

Ellen, you and I are both parents.

[Ellen McGirt]

Yes.

[John B. Win]

You probably remember what it's like trying to figure out the whole childcare question.

[Ellen McGirt]

Yes, I do. And I sort of miss those days. But I happened to be working from home, sort of a nervous writer editor at the time, when my kids were small. So I had a little bit of a leg up on some other parents. But I've done a lot of reporting on this issue, too. And that gave me so much appreciation for the challenges and for the people, mostly women and women of color, who do such important, necessary work.

[John B. Win]

That's kind of what I said to Charlene Brooks. I would send my kids to you. I got a lump in my throat when I said it because it all came back. How fraught it is to leave your child with strangers. And the relief when your kid is in a place where people are loving on him and keeping him safe. That feeling when you're dropping your 34 year old off the way you want to feel about that place and the.

[Noor Azri]

Way that it's taken care of. Exactly.

[John B. Win]

There's nothing more important.

[Noor Azri]

Exactly. You want to feel the care and the love. No matter how you look at it, you have to have a passion for working in childcare because the money is not there. So that's not the reason I'm coming here every day.

[Ellen McGirt]

The money is not there. Of course, this is where we were going with this, the economics, the economy.

[John B. Win]

Of child care, which is a travesty and a tragedy. At least in the usa.

[Ellen McGirt]

Child care is too expensive for most families to comfortably afford. The cost can be a crippling burden. Some poorer parents spend almost half their household income on childcare. And the other side of the equation, the average annual pay for a child care worker in the US is painfully low, just under $30,000 a year.

[John B. Win]

Charlene's wage of 1450 an hour puts her right at the national average.

[Noor Azri]

Thankfully, I have a husband, but 1450 is really not even enough to pay all of my bills if I had to do it on my own.

[Ellen McGirt]

Of course, a lot of child care workers do not have partners who earn more than they do. Many are single moms. So the people doing this essential work often live near or in poverty.

[John B. Win]

Cassandra Brooks, the owner of Little Believers, is caught in the middle between her teachers who struggle to live on what she can pay them and her customers, the parents, a lot of them low income, who struggle to pay her rates and can't handle much more.

[Noor Azri]

It doesn't balance out. Nobody wants to work for free or work in the hole. I've had friends this year who had to go out and get loans just to help cover payroll.

[John B. Win]

Already she's talking about friends who run childcare centers.

[Ellen McGirt]

You know, John, childcare as an industry is in perpetual crisis. But as we record this, things are especially dire. A big federal subsidy put in place at the height of the COVID 19 pandemic propped up child care centers and their workers, workers for a couple of years. But congress allowed it to expire in the fall of 2023, leaving the industry.

[John B. Win]

To run on laissez faire economics and the wildly spotty patchwork of subsidies, or lack thereof, from state and local governments. Some estimates say tens of thousands of child care centers will have to shut their doors in the next few years. That'll make the national shortage much, much worse. I wondered about the future of Cassandra's business.

[Noor Azri]

I can't really say. I take it day by day. I'm a prayerful person. I pray daily and always looking to God for direction. Is this really the right thing? You know, is this really. But then I think about the children. I think about the families that we're doing. So much too impact them, you know, so that's, that's why I keep going. This isn't a viable business. You're not making, you know, enough percentage here. You're crazy. You can go do this. That's what a regular entrepreneur is, its owner would do.

[John B. Win]

So, yeah, as a market, it simply doesn't work.

[Noor Azri]

It doesn't work. It doesn't work.

[Ellen McGirt]

And there you have it. Markets are supposed to work. That's one of the central selling points we hear about the free enterprise system. It's the magic of supply and demand. Now, if people really want or need something, the market will provide. So consumers get taken care of. And the business person and her employees, they prosper too. If they've got something to sell that people want to buy, everybody wins.

[John B. Win]

But childcare is just one of many market failures. And doesn't it almost seem like there's a correlation? The more essential the service or the product, the more fundamental it is to human health and survival, the more likely that the free market won't provide it reliably or affordably. Look at the United States, Health care and health insurance.

[Ellen McGirt]

How about food? Think of the low income, mostly black and brown and immigrant communities that don't have enough good options for nutritious, affordable food.

[John B. Win]

But we do have miles of aisles in every supermarket devoted to small sweets and salty chips.

[Ellen McGirt]

Right? Housing. How many people in our country can't afford rent, let alone to own a home? It's another gigantic market failure with huge effects on millions of lives.

[John B. Win]

You know, John Fullerton told me about that newspaper story that gave him a wake up call about the billionaire philanthropist. When I was in the early days of doing research for this project, in January 2023, a headline on the front page of the New York Times stopped me in my tracks. It's still on my desk. It said, soaring prices in Britain leave children hungry.

[Ellen McGirt]

Wow, I see what you mean. We could read that headline and think, well, of course, with inflation, food is more expensive. Sadly, it's not a surprise. But if you stop and think, really, in the 2000s in the richest countries the world has ever seen, we've organized ourselves around the ability to pay the market price for things. And those things include food for our kids. And if you don't have enough money, your kids go hungry. It's just that simple, really.

[John B. Win]

And you know, the debate on these issues then is usually about government policy. How will government fill these gaps? Feed hungry children, create affordable housing, get people health insurance, or prop up the child care system? What we're pointing out here is simply the fact that the market, left to itself, doesn't get it done right if.

[Ellen McGirt]

There'S not enough profit to be made. Businesses don't compete hard for customers with no money. And that is not acknowledged often enough. What else do we think we know about capitalism? Well, we think it means economic freedom, an opportunity. Work hard and you can make it. You, me, anyone, and you might just make it big.

[John B. Win]

This is the stuff of our civic religion, certainly here in the US and in lots of other capitalist societies. I'm not going to sit here and say there's no truth to these narratives. There is for some people some of the time, but.

[Ellen McGirt]

Yeah, right. But.

[James]

Hey, as you know, we are very excited to give away some ad space to some excellent Canadian companies. And it's extraordinary the cool ideas that Canadian entrepreneurs have. Check this one out, Campa. I'm a very indoorsy guy. I'm not much of a camper, but I feel guilty about it. I feel like I'm depriving my kids of an important Canadian experience. I probably would go camping, but for this, like, huge disincentive, which is like, how expensive it is to get camping gear. Well, campa is a camping equipment rental service designed to make outdoor adventures easy and hassle free. Why hasn't somebody thought of this sooner? This is excellent. Campa provides high quality camping gear for individuals, groups and organizations, making sure that you got everything you need for a seamless outdoor experience. They have a comfort package. That sounds good to me. Pots, pans, tents, sleeping bags, a coffee press, essential pickup and drop off within the GTA are included in your rental fee. They're offering Canada and listeners 10% off of your first rental. Visit rentcampa.com, use the code Canadaland at checkout that is rentcampa c-a m p a.com for 10% off of your first gear rental. Hey, we're giving ad space for free to wonderful Canadian businesses. And today I'm going to tell you about Goldhawk Farm Granola. This is a Canadian granola company owned and run by Leanne and Chris Goldhawk. Started with a recipe from Leanne's grandma. This is one of those things that everybody loved it so much locally that it went from, you know, farmers markets to local stores and now they'll ship it across the country. And they sent us a bag and it's delicious. They've got honey granola, maple granola, gingerbread granola. Two nut free flavors, cocoa berry and blueberry. The ingredients are almost entirely from Canada, more precisely, Nova Scotia. The honey is from Nova Scotia. Maple syrup, blueberries, raspberries, strawberries. They dry and freeze dry berries themselves. I love the freeze dried fresh berry. It's got like a crunch but it's got that fresh fruit flavor. The oats are organic gluten free oats from Quebec. They got a farm and a granola kitchen both in Moser river in a village in a very rural part of Nova Scotia's eastern shore. You can't get more Canadian. And they'll ship this to anywhere in Canada. If you buy enough of this stuff, they'll ship it to you for free. But we asked all of these companies to give our listeners a special deal and here's what they have for you. Candleand listeners. 15% off your order when you visit goldhawkfarm.com and use the promo code Canadaland. It's just a good product. GoldhawkFarm.com promo code CANADALAND.

[John B. Win]

You know, I think a lot of our listeners would agree that this season this topic has been coming for a while on this show. Yeah, we've been circling, kind of poking at it for years now.

[Ellen McGirt]

Well, capitalism is in everything. You and your collaborators took on race Gender, American democracy and the lack thereof, the climate crisis. It's been an important part of your approach, which I love. To explore the power dynamics at work and to follow the money.

[John B. Win]

Yeah. We've often asked, what are the economic underpinnings of these systems, these powerful social forces? And as we kind of tugged at those threads, it seemed like they kept leading to the same, unavoidable, not at.

[Ellen McGirt]

The heart of things, capitalism.

[John B. Win]

So here we are. This series will build on those other seasons and we'll do callbacks and point out connections as we go.

[Ellen McGirt]

Now, John, this being seen on radio, we're going to move past the simple narratives, aren't we? And we're going to go back.

[John B. Win]

Yeah, we're going to go back. We've learned on this show that there's power in origin stories. So we're going to trace the steps as capitalism emerged and evolved and try to understand how people, especially people with power, how they shaped the system over time. And maybe we'll be able to see capitalism's essence more clearly.

[Ellen McGirt]

And then, just maybe, we'll be equipped to see our choices more clearly. How do we want to organize our relationships around work, wealth, and the things we all need to live and thrive? People made our economic system. We can choose to remake it.

[John B. Win]

Over the coming episodes. We're going to start in medieval times and travel into the early modern era in Europe. As feudalism lost its grip, people who were not yet called capitalists started building a powerful new economic machine through the.

[Ellen McGirt]

Industrial revolution and the stunning emergence of American economic power on into the 20th century, with its booms and busts and ideological pushing and pulling up to our current troubled, contested moment.

[John B. Win]

At every step, we'll keep our eyes on the majority, regular working people and how the changes affected their lives. And we'll examine the ideas and shifting cultural values or propaganda, some would say, in some cases, that enabled and justified these profound shifts, for better and for worse.

[Ellen McGirt]

And later in the series, we'll spend some time exploring deep critiques of 21st century capitalism. Critiques not just from the left, as you'd expect, but from the right as well. And we'll consider alternatives, real world models that people are doing, ranging from reforms of capitalism as we know it to more radical transformations.

[John B. Win]

So in the past on this show, we've been known to say a few words about our positionality, if you will. For example, doing a season on whiteness or patriarchy. I wanted to make clear that I understood that it mattered. That I'm a white cisgender dude.

[Ellen McGirt]

Yes. And I'm a CIS woman and I've been black my whole life.

[John B. Win]

This time it's capitalism. So we should say a bit about our relationship to that. A question for you, Ellen. You wrote for Time magazine. You've done lots of TV at CNN and other networks. And for eight years until 2023, you were a senior reporter and editor at Fortune magazine. You created the race and culture beat there and wrote the Race Ahead newsletter covering business and race and other issues of equity and social justice. Still, Fortune, a magazine about and really for people in business, that's fair to characterize it that way?

[Ellen McGirt]

Absolutely, absolutely. It's for the people at the top of the game.

[John B. Win]

So does this mean that you are firmly pro capitalist, not really down for questioning the status quo too deeply?

[Ellen McGirt]

You know it does not mean that. But thank you so much for raising this. In fact, part of my appeal in the Fortune crowd was being an outlier, asking some of these big questions about the failings and injustices of the business world as we know it. Inequality and inequity. I have spent a lot of time in the last few years talking with people inside corporations, leaders, workers, people who want to do better and are trying to do better. Although I will let everyone know, I'm seriously skeptical about how much corporations themselves can or will change how they operate in the world. But they do have to be part of the conversation.

[John B. Win]

In our conversations, you have made it clear that you are here for all the questions.

[Ellen McGirt]

I am. So, John, a question back at you. Previous seasons of CNON Radio have made sharp critiques of capitalism as we know it. So with you as the primary reporter, can listeners expect this to be, oh, I don't know, a season long anti capitalist polemic?

[John B. Win]

Well, you know, I mean, ultimately that's in the eye or ear of the beholder. I'm sure some people will hear it that way, but I would say, I would say no. Yes. In past seasons we pointed to deep problems that spring from this economic system. Some of the things that we've just been talking about here. But what to do about all of it? Exactly. How to make our economy work for people and other living things, not the other way around. And for that matter, are there essential aspects of the current system we would miss if they were gone? I go into this project sincerely open minded about all that.

[Ellen McGirt]

I appreciate that because the questions are complicated and so the answers will be too. One last thing before we wrap up this introduction. The biggest question of what is capitalism? What are we talking about precisely? I feel like we need to define our terms at this point?

[John B. Win]

Yes, sure. Well. Well, let's start with the dictionary definition, which usually goes something like this one from Oxford. Capitalism an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit. But that needs a whole lot of unpacking, doesn't it?

[Ellen McGirt]

Right? Not to mention that the capitalism of Wall street in the 2000s is different from the capitalism of the 1970s, let alone the 1870s or the version Adam Smith was talking about in the 1770s.

[John B. Win]

And by the way, Adam Smith didn't really say what a lot of people think he said, but we're getting ahead of ourselves.

[Ellen McGirt]

So we're going to tell the story and peel back the layers and let a richer understanding of capitalism unfold for us all.

[John B. Win]

Come along, folks. You can't see it, but I'm rubbing my hands together as we get ready to dig in. Next time. BC Before Capitalism this episode was made by me with Ellen McGirt and our story editor, Loretta Williams. Music by Michelle Osis, Lily Hayden, Goodnight Lucas and Alex Simcox. Music consulting by Joe Augustine of Narrative Music. Our website where we post transcripts is sceneonradio.org this season is produced in partnership with Imperative 21. The show is distributed by our friends at PRX. Scene on radio comes to you from the Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University.

[James]

This episode of Canadaland is brought to you by HotDocs Canadian international documentary Festival. Canadaland is proud to be a media partner of the Hot Docs Festival. I'm so happy that it's back. This is like the world's greatest documentary festival and it's right here in Toronto from April 24 to May 4. Go watch a feature documentary in a theater and watch them before you can watch them anywhere else. Go buy your tickets now. Packages and single tickets are on sale at HotDocs CA Festival. H o t d o c s CA Festival I'll be there. So we've been giving away ad space to some excellent Canadian companies and I just continually impressed by the amount of things that we make here in this country. And there are so many small businesses that have come to us to let us know about what they're up to. I am tired of paying Uncle Sam for my incense needs. There is Buy Canada Incense Flore Incense. Here are some of their products. Sweetgrass Incense. Sage, Sandalwood. You know all the hits that we love. Guidance Incense Sticks. What does Guidance smell like? Find out. Meditation Incense sticks. Bliss Lavender, Canadian Forest. Be patriotic with your incense. There are also curated incense collections and every fragrance in those collections have been selected to take you on a themed sensory journey. And this is a good deal. You can get $6 off of any individual collection. And Canada listeners who spend $60 or more on this Canadian incense, well, Fluret will throw in a pack of their new fragrance, which isn't dropping until June. I'm not telling you what it is. You're going to have to become a Flore customer. To find out, go to floretincense.com f l o r e incense.com and use the promo code Canadaland. Hey, as I've been telling you, we are giving away a ton of ad space to great Canadian companies that could use the help and use the wider awareness right now. And I'm going to tell you right now about a Canadian company called for 40 that's making a product that I never thought I wanted until I got a pair of these socks and realized how great they are. These are very comfortable socks with, like, rubber grip. These socks have really helped me step up my movement practice. They're designed in Ottawa by a yoga and Pilates instructor. And if you are really trying to find a new expression of your stretch, if you are finding a new, new solidity to your core, why are you laughing? I do this stuff. I do yoga, Pilates. It's so boring and painful, but I actually am doing it because it's helping my back. And if you're just wearing your socks, you're slipping and sliding around. Do you really want to be barefoot? Maybe you do, maybe you don't, which is why a grip sock from 40. As soon as I saw this, I'm like, oh, yeah, obviously somebody should make this. And there are all kinds of fitness activities that these 40 socks are good for. And step up your grip game. Grab your perfect pair of 40 grip socks today. Use the code CANADALAND for 20% off of your order at 40gripsocks.com. That's f o r t y gripsocks dot com.