Code Switch: In Lakota Nation, People Are Asking: Who Does a Language Belong To?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Pretendians – "Code Switch: In Lakota Nation, People Are Asking: Who Does a Language Belong To?"

Release Date: November 20, 2024

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of "Code Switch" by NPR, co-hosts Christina Kahla and BA Parker delve into the intricate and contentious issue of language ownership within the Lakota Nation. The episode titled "In Lakota Nation, People Are Asking: Who Does a Language Belong To?" explores the ongoing struggle between the Lakota community and the Lakota Language Consortium (LLC) regarding the control and preservation of the Lakota language.

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The Vital Importance of the Lakota Language

Timestamp: [02:28] - [06:43]

Christina Kahla introduces listeners to the dire state of the Lakota language, highlighting that the average age of Lakota speakers is over 75, placing the language on the brink of extinction. She emphasizes the cultural significance of the language through the story of Dolores Taken Alive, a revered Lakota speaker born in 1933. Dolores dedicated over 40 years to teaching Lakota and hosted a weekly radio show, "It's Good to Speak Lakota," aimed at preserving the language for future generations.

Notable Quote:

Dolores Taken Alive (04:01): "Always remember and speak your Lakota language, because that is your language. So, the white man's language will be your second language. No matter how educated you are, in order for you to translate our Lakota language, which is ours, but if I speak my truest Lakota language, you won't be able to translate that."

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The Lakota Language Consortium (LLC) and Their Role

Timestamp: [08:00] - [10:07]

The episode introduces the Lakota Language Consortium (LLC), a nonprofit organization founded by Wilhelm Meyer and Jan Ulrich in 2004. The LLC has been pivotal in revitalizing the Lakota language by developing resources such as the Lakota dictionary and hosting learning programs. Christina Kahla points out that the LLC operates similarly to linguistic authorities like the Oxford English Dictionary, aiming to standardize the language to facilitate teaching and learning.

Notable Quote:

Alex Firethunder (10:31): "That's a lot of words I have to learn, you know? But in retrospect, it makes you realize how complex and how rich our language is."

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The Conflict Over Language Ownership

Timestamp: [16:16] - [35:36]

The heart of the episode revolves around the intense conflict between Ray Taken Alive, grandson of Dolores, and the LLC. Ray accuses the LLC of appropriating his grandmother's linguistic legacy by holding copyrights over her recordings and materials, which he believes should belong to the Lakota community. This dispute raises fundamental questions about who holds the rights to an indigenous language and its cultural materials.

Notable Quotes:

Ray Taken Alive (17:12): "It's too long in language revitalization. Our people have been removed from our language. It's constantly tried to be separated."

Nike Lupita (35:36): "It's an ethical. It's an equity, It's a historical justice problem."

Jane Anderson, a lawyer specializing in copyright and Indigenous sovereignty, further complicates the discussion by explaining that copyright law was not designed to support oral cultures, thereby exacerbating the tension between legal ownership and cultural stewardship.

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Legal and Ethical Implications

Timestamp: [33:03] - [36:38]

Jane Anderson elaborates on the clash between Western copyright laws and Indigenous perspectives on language as a communal heritage rather than property. She argues that copyright laws inherently conflict with the Indigenous understanding of language as a sacred, shared resource passed down through generations.

Notable Quote:

Jane Anderson (35:36): "Copyright law really was not developed as a tool to support oral cultures or indigenous people generally. It was a tool to support written cultures and to exploit knowledge."

Christina Kahla highlights existing protections for Indigenous languages, including the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the Native American Language Act of 1990, which advocate for the revitalization and preservation of Native languages. Additionally, the Standing Rock Sioux Nation's Tribal Council Resolution 150-22 asserts perpetual intellectual property rights over their language and cultural materials.

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Current Status and Ongoing Struggles

Timestamp: [36:38] - [37:56]

The episode outlines the current state of the conflict. Ray Taken Alive continues to seek full ownership and control over his grandmother's materials, arguing that mere copies do not suffice to protect her legacy. Meanwhile, Alex Firethunder, who has risen to become the executive director of the LLC, faces the challenge of balancing the organization's standardized approach to language preservation with the community's demand for ownership and ethical stewardship.

Notable Quote:

Ray Taken Alive (37:56): "What I want is all of the intellectual property rights given back to our family. All the audio, the recordings, the pictures, the licensing, everything."

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Perspectives and Path Forward

Timestamp: [35:52] - [38:35]

The discussion shifts towards potential solutions, advocating for a stewardship model rather than ownership. Jane Anderson suggests that stewardship allows for a more inclusive decision-making process involving tribal councils and elders, thereby respecting the communal nature of the language.

Notable Quote:

Jane Anderson (35:36): "It's an ethical. It's an equity, It's a historical justice problem."

Alex Firethunder emphasizes the broader impact of colonial systems on language preservation, stating, "We wouldn't be in this situation with our language if it weren't for the colonial systems that have been imposed on us." This underscores the need for decolonized approaches to language revitalization that prioritize Indigenous autonomy and cultural integrity.

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Conclusion

The episode concludes by reflecting on the legacy of Dolores Taken Alive and the enduring importance of the Lakota language. While both Ray and Alex are committed to preserving Lakota, their differing approaches highlight the complex interplay between legal frameworks, cultural stewardship, and community ownership. Christina Kahla poignantly reminds listeners of Dolores's enduring message: "Don't ever lose your Lakota language," underscoring the deep personal and communal investment in preserving this vital aspect of Lakota heritage.

Notable Quote:

Dolores Taken Alive (38:47): "Don't ever lose your Lakota language. Always remember and speak your Lakota language."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of "Code Switch" masterfully navigates the delicate and multifaceted issue of language ownership within the Lakota Nation. By intertwining personal stories, legal perspectives, and cultural insights, Christina Kahla and BA Parker provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of the challenges and aspirations surrounding Indigenous language preservation.

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References:

• Code Switch: NPR’s award-winning podcast focusing on race and culture.
• Lakota Language Consortium (LLC): Nonprofit organization dedicated to revitalizing the Lakota language.
• Standing Rock Sioux Nation: Tribal nation advocating for the preservation and ownership of the Lakota language.

Transcript

[Caleb Thompson]

Hey, this is Caleb Thompson. I'm one of the producers who brought you season one of Pretendians. And this week we're sharing an episode we really enjoy made by our friends at NPR's Long Running Award winning podcast, Code Switch. Code Switch ventures to have thoughtful, courageous and fun conversations about race and culture. Topics spans genres from politics to pop culture to history and everything in between. In this episode, senior producer Christina Kalla tells the story of the quest to save the endangered Lakota language. The average age of Lakota speakers continues to rise while the learning tools made by Lakota ancestors sit behind a copyright wall. That copyright is held by a white man who tried to sell these tools back to the nation. Kala speaks to Lakota community members as they fight to earn back the right to this vital piece of their own culture. The episode is called In Lakota Nation, people are asking who does a language belong to? We hope you like it as much as we do. You can listen to more of NPR's code switch wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Christina Kahla]

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[Caleb Thompson]

But to you, it's an entrepad. You're a starting block.

[Christina Kahla]

This ain't a desk, this is opportunity.

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[BA Parker]

Hey everyone, you're listening to Code Switch. I'm BA Parker and today I have our senior producer, Christina Kahla. Hey Christina.

[Christina Kahla]

Hey Parker.

[BA Parker]

All right, so what do you have for us today?

[Christina Kahla]

Two years ago I started reading about a complex multi generational fight over language that's going on in the Lakota nation. The average speaker age of Lakota is over 75. There's just not a lot of time to you know, fight internally when there's so much work to do. And this language is highly endangered. A puzzle over ownership that can't fully be solved by the US Legal system.

[Jane Anderson]

We're making things property that perhaps should never be considered property in the first place.

[Christina Kahla]

And two educators who are desperately working with their language, but who have found themselves completely at odds.

[Alex Firethunder]

For me, like, the overlying mission is to do what's best for the language, and dividing our people is not what's best for the language.

[Caleb Thompson]

They're still selling my grandmother's sentences, our family's oral history, and our oral knowledge.

[Christina Kahla]

And Parker to tell that story. I want to start with that grandmother whose legacy has been at the center of this fight. Her name is Dolores, Taken alive.

[Dolores Taken Alive]

When I graduated from high school, my grandfather, he said, don't ever lose your Lakota language.

[Christina Kahla]

Dolores was born on Standing Rock in South Dakota in 1933, and she was a fluent Lakota speaker. She cared about her language a lot, just like her grandfather taught her.

[Dolores Taken Alive]

Always remember and speak your Lakota language, because that is your language. So. And then the white man's language will be your second language. And then he said to me, no matter how educated you are, in order for you to translate our Lakota language, which is ours, but if I speak my truest Lakota language, you won't be able to translate that.

[BA Parker]

He said to me, maintaining your language seems like a lot of responsibility.

[Christina Kahla]

It does. Dolores learned and spoke Lakota in everyday life. While she was searching for chokecherries with her brother, plowing the land for her dad, horseback riding, she was also practicing her language.

[Dolores Taken Alive]

I used to say to my mother, mom, can I go sleep at grandpa's tonight? Okay. Then we used to sleep on the floor, and grandpa, he would be telling us stories. So, you know, this oral tradition is very important.

[Christina Kahla]

Dolores taught at different schools in Sanding rock for over 40 years, and at the age of 84, she started hosting a weekly radio show in Lakota. Her show was called It's Good to speak Lakota.

[BA Parker]

I mean, that's a pretty apt title.

[Christina Kahla]

Yeah. She also recorded stories with a bunch of different organizations. She taped all 48 episodes of her radio show she recorded with Standing Rock. She recorded with an education nonprofit called WO Lakota Project. That's where this audio is from. She shared this one story about a time she talked to her sister in Lakota in front of a classroom full of students.

[Dolores Taken Alive]

They were so amazed at how Lakota language could be so, you know, cherishing and yet so loving, because you can.

[Christina Kahla]

Speak it not everyone had the same experience.

[BA Parker]

Right? I mean, boarding schools existed in her lifetime, which we've talked about before in Code Switch, they were basically designed to strip indigenous kids of their culture. And their English only policy is responsible for the extinction or endangerment of hundreds of native languages. And the US Policy protecting indigenous languages in school wasn't passed until what, 1990.

[Christina Kahla]

That's the native American Language Act. Standing Rock wants Lakota to be the first language citizens speak at home by 2045. But according to one article, in 2020, they only counted 230 native Dakota and Lakota speakers in Standing Rock. That's down from 350 in 2006.

[BA Parker]

So they have their work cut out for them.

[Christina Kahla]

Right. Which is partially why, even though Lakota is more of a culture of oral tradition, Dolores worked hard to make the language more accessible in a bunch of different ways. And she was the perfect person to do that. According to the Society for the Study of the Indigenous Languages of the Americas, she was considered, quote, one of the most eloquent Lakota speakers of her time. Even other fluent speakers, when they had questions about the intricacies of their language, would say, dolores will know. Words can hardly describe the incredible contribution made to the dictionary by Dolores taken live. So that's Jan Ulrich. He's a linguist from the Czech Republic who's been speaking Lakota for about 40 years. He stumbled on an old Lakota dictionary while the Czech Republic was still under Soviet rule, and he decided to start learning Lakota. Jan worked with Dolores and others to create a Lakota dictionary as a founder and head linguist for this influential nonprofit called the Lakota Language Consortium, or the llc. That tape we heard is from a Lakota Language Consortium video.

[BA Parker]

Okay, so what is the Lakota Language Consortium?

[Christina Kahla]

So the LLC is made up of a team of mostly native staff. We should clarify, it's not actually an LLC in the corporate sense.

[BA Parker]

That helps.

[Christina Kahla]

It's a nonprofit that's been around for 20 years. And aside from their Lakota dictionary, they publish books and host learning weeks with Lakota elders. Their mission is to revitalize Lakota by creating a new generation of Lakota speakers. The average speaker age of Lakota is over 75. There's just not a lot of time to, you know, fight internally when there's so much work to do. And this language is highly endangered. That was Wilhelm Meyer. He founded the LLC with Yon in 2004, and they ran it together for 20 years. Wilhelm was born in Austria, but grew up in the States. He studied at Oglala Lakota College on the Pine Ridge Reservation. That's where he first started to learn Lakota and became deeply interested in Lakota culture. Jan and Wilhelm also founded a larger nonprofit. It's called the Language Conservancy, and it works with over 50 other native languages. On the bottom of that website, there's a logo saying they have special consultative status with the United Nations Economic and Social Council.

[BA Parker]

That sounds legit.

[Christina Kahla]

It does. They're definitely power players in the language preservation revitalization space in a way that kind of makes me think of Ray. Real academia.

[BA Parker]

Like the OED or Websters.

[Christina Kahla]

Yeah. And with Lakota, the LLC has said they're not trying to be the one authority on the language, but they are trying to quote, create and maintain Lakota resources that are reliable, evidence based, text corpus based, and that can be confidently referenced by Lakota language teachers and learners. End quote. And the New Lakota Dictionary is one of those resources.

[BA Parker]

So are people actually using the dictionary to try to learn Lakota?

[Christina Kahla]

Some are. So I talked to Alex Firethunder a few times about his relationship with his language. Alex is an enrolled member of the Oglala Sioux tribe, and when Alex started seriously Studying Lakota in 2013, he used the LLC dictionary. He remembers seeing it for the very first time and feeling overwhelmed as a beginner learner.

[Alex Firethunder]

That's a lot of words I have to learn, you know? But in retrospect, it makes you realize how complex and how rich our language is.

[Christina Kahla]

Alex lives in Pine Ridge now, but he grew up in New York, and while he knew some Lakota words, he didn't speak it at home. Really?

[Alex Firethunder]

My mom is a speaker, but she didn't teach me or my siblings to speak Lakota. Everybody else spoke English?

[BA Parker]

No.

[Alex Firethunder]

I just think that it was just. It wasn't practical. And it's a similar story to my generation here on the Res as well. English just kind of took over. I remember, like, talking to my older brother when we were teenagers. Like, we should learn to speak Lakota so that we can talk to mom in Lakota. How cool would that be?

[Christina Kahla]

At age 22, he signed up for Lakota classes.

[Alex Firethunder]

And right away I. Everything I would learn in class, I would call my mom after and, you know, try to practice. She would laugh at me when I would say things funny or say things wrong, I'd be like. And all like, robotic and like, like syllable by syllable. And so she'd laugh and I'd say, what? What's wrong with that? Is this evening or this. This evening? Come in. And then she says it's. So is the fast way of pronouncing that like turns into.

[Christina Kahla]

After a few years of studying, Alex became a Lakota language teacher himself. And then he took a job with the Lakota Language Consortium as the deputy director.

[BA Parker]

Now, what does the deputy director of a language nonprofit do?

[Christina Kahla]

He runs classes at the LLC Summer Institute, teaches, works as a linguist, hosts a podcast, of course. Yep. He records elders in their communities and documents previously undocumented words, some of which.

[Alex Firethunder]

Are old, some of them are new, but words that are used by our speakers that have never been written before.

[BA Parker]

Well, dang. He's working as hard as Dolores.

[Christina Kahla]

He is. And he said in the latest edition, the third edition of the new Lakota dictionary, they added roughly 10,000 more words than the first one.

[Alex Firethunder]

And so, like, one example is pajamas. Pajamas is in the dictionary. It's always been, I think it's istimapi or Ishtima hayapi, which just means, like, when sleeping clothes. But my mom was like, I never heard that. And she gave it to me. And so then I was like, that's not in the dictionary. And I asked around some other elders, and now it's in the dictionary. It makes me feel proud, you know, being the first generation to not be the speaker. It makes me feel like I'm mending, like, some kind of hoop that's been broken. Not to be cheesy. I know that's usually, you know, a lot of our people like to talk about the medicine wheel and hoops and stuff like that. What. But it is, you know, a circle is a sacred symbol to our people, and it really is meaningful to continue that cycle.

[Christina Kahla]

Continuing that cycle is especially important as the number of Native Lakota speakers continues to shrink.

[Dolores Taken Alive]

I always pray to creator that said, give me. Give me more life. Give me health. Give me good health. I'm still needed. I can still help, you know, I want to live more, you know, like that because I can help my people, my students, my tacos.

[Christina Kahla]

Dolores, taken alive, died in 2020. But so much of her work lives on in recordings, in books, in stories that she shared so the next seven generations can keep learning. It lives on in people who decided to take up Dolores mantle as well.

[BA Parker]

Like Alex.

[Christina Kahla]

Well, yes and no. It depends on who you ask, because, Parker, as you know, nothing in life is ever that clean or easy.

[Caleb Thompson]

They're still selling my grandmother's sentences, our family's oral history, and our oral knowledge. So have we been given my grandmother's stuff back yet?

[Christina Kahla]

That's coming up.

[BA Parker]

Stay with us.

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[Christina Kahla]

$45 upfront payment equivalent to 15 per month. New customers on first three month plan only. Taxes and fees. Extra Speed slower above 40 gigabytes. C details. Parker, Christina.

[BA Parker]

Code switch.

[Christina Kahla]

So, Parker, before the break, we heard about Dolores Taken Alive's work to keep the Lakota language alive. And she worked tirelessly to do that, including with the Lakota Language Consortium, who she believed had the same mission as her. But not everyone shares that belief. In fact, some people thought that they saw something much more sinister going on.

[Nicole E. Ducheneau]

A lot of people in Indian country, including myself, thought that Wilhelm Maya and Jan Ulrich were sent from heaven for us.

[Christina Kahla]

This is Nicole E. Ducheno. She's Cheyenne River Lakota. And in June 2023, in a hearing room in Pier, South Dakota, she was talking about her language.

[Nicole E. Ducheneau]

Two preeminent linguists who were willing to travel thousands of miles away to our reservations here in South Dakota and donate their time, donate their time and expertise to helping us save our endangered Lakota language. And we as Indian people thought that they viewed our language and our culture as a shared resource that could be neither bought nor sold.

[Christina Kahla]

Nicole was representing Ray Taken Alive, Dolores Taken Alive's grandson. And Nicole was Ray's defense. Through a six hour hearing with the South Dakota Education Department, Ray learned in.

[Nicole E. Ducheneau]

2021 that in fact, our ancient and sacred Lakota language that had barely survived small talks, barely survived war and forced assimilation, and which Ray's grandmother, Dolores Taken Alive, had innocently and proudly shared with Jan and Will, for the good of her people, had been copyrighted by the llc. Ray's grandma's image had been copyrighted by the llc. The way that Ray saw it, our mother tongue and wisdom that were passed down by his ancestors now belong to Jan and Wilhelm. And Ray doesn't think that's right. He thinks that's illegal. He thinks the LLC is stealing our language and our culture.

[Ray Taken Alive]

It's too long in language revitalization. Our people have been removed from from our language. It's constantly tried to be separated.

[Christina Kahla]

That last voice is Ray Taken Alive, right?

[BA Parker]

We heard him right before the break. And it sounded like he was not that thrilled about what the Lakota Language Consortium is doing.

[Christina Kahla]

He is not a fan. And you heard a little about why from his lawyer. Here's how Ray explains it.

[Ray Taken Alive]

So they're always talking about the language. The language is dying. The language. We need to save the language. But those kinds of conversations, we forget the people, the people who speak the languages. So trying to separate the language from the people, you can use that to scare people, to diagnose someone with the disease, and then you can sell them the cure.

[BA Parker]

Hello.

[Christina Kahla]

Hey, Ray. Ray and I talked multiple times, so some of his tape might sound a little different.

[Ray Taken Alive]

How's it going? Good.

[Christina Kahla]

How are you? What are you up to today?

[Ray Taken Alive]

I'm doing good.

[Caleb Thompson]

We're going to head out in the.

[Ray Taken Alive]

River today later on when it warms up.

[Christina Kahla]

Ray is a Standing Rock citizen. He teaches Lakota language at the McLaughlin Public School in McLaughlin, South Dakota. He's also the Lakota language and culture coordinator for his school, which means he helps make curriculum.

[Caleb Thompson]

That was always my dream, to work in the school.

[Christina Kahla]

And Ray comes from a long line of teachers like Dolores. Yeah. Which is one reason why he's passionate about helping young Lakota people learn to speak Lakota as part of their everyday lives.

[Caleb Thompson]

I believe that our culture and our language is life giving. I want to give them the tools to dream and do whatever they want to do.

[Christina Kahla]

And Ray has spent the past three years fighting the Lakota Language Consortium.

[BA Parker]

Wait, Christina. But it sounds like Ray has the same goal as the llc to keep teaching the language.

[Christina Kahla]

I mean, he does to a certain degree, but there are some key differences in how Ray and the LLC conceptualize their work. So Ray has three main issues with the LLC that have to do with messaging authority and ownership.

[BA Parker]

Oh, okay. Yes. Let's get into it.

[Christina Kahla]

So when it comes to messaging, Ray is asking, is the threat of the Lakota language dying off being used to convince people to get on board with the LLC's learning system? Like, is the LLC catastrophizing?

[BA Parker]

That's what he was referring to when it comes to selling the disease and the cure.

[Christina Kahla]

Yep. And one other key piece of that is selling. In order to sell something, you need people to want to buy it, which is why he cares about authority. Okay, so, as I said before, the Lakota Language Consortium materials standardize one clear way to speak and write Lakota. Like, this is the vocabulary. These are the diacritical marks. This is how the grammar is structured.

[BA Parker]

I could see how that could feel like the best chance to revitalize the language, to standardize it.

[Christina Kahla]

Yeah, that's what supporters of the LLC would say for sure. This work is needed now, and the LLC has the resources and the know how to do it. But when it comes to who has authority, Ray and others are asking, like, with a living language that doesn't have one clear standardized writing system already, who gets to decide the correct way to write and speak the language? Especially when there are so many regional and generational differences. But even more fundamentally, some Lakota people feel like maybe they don't need one standardized writing system. A bunch already exists. And having a variety of systems and materials has worked for some people like Ray.

[Ray Taken Alive]

What I use personally is I typed up, me and a friend of mine, we typed up as all the texts that we could basically find, and I keep it in this huge PDF document.

[Christina Kahla]

He says a lot of people don't know how many resources exist from tribal colleges, Elders, tribes, curricula, dictionaries, books. They're all out there.

[Ray Taken Alive]

One thing I like to do is I get on the online databases or Google Scholar or whatever, and I look for whatever I can find on there. And then also I get on ebay.

[Christina Kahla]

He found some cassette tapes that way.

[Ray Taken Alive]

I bought them, and then I put them in this old radio that my dad gave me, and I played it, and it was the tapes to these Black Hills State University Language Curriculum.

[BA Parker]

Okay, Christina. I totally understand what Ray is doing and why it feels more organic to the way the Lakota language has actually worked throughout time. But having one place you go to and know that you're learning the right things might just be more convenient. Like, not everyone is going to have the time and motivation to find cassette tapes on ebay or know how to use cassette tapes.

[Christina Kahla]

I mean, that's a good point. And actually, one elder who worked with the LLC remarked that two generations of Lakota language students on Standing Rock have learned using LLC materials. At this point, maybe removing them would be detrimental to those students learning. For people like Alex Firethunder, who lives on Pine Ridge, having one standardized system has been incredibly helpful in learning Lakota.

[Alex Firethunder]

In the LLC materials, every word has the stress marked where it goes, so, you know, there's no guesswork. And that really developed a confidence in my speaking.

[Christina Kahla]

So this stuff works for some people. But Parker, people like Ray are really worried about trading convenience for ownership. And the bigger question here is, if Lakota people are involved in making LLC materials, why should this separate company have control over those materials, not the elder speakers or tribes? And if the LLC controls those recordings, etc. Does the language still belong to the Lakota people? And this has become another giant part of this discussion. A language cannot be copyrighted in general. It's not a thing that is like that. That's Wilhelm Meyer again. Remember, he's one of the original founders of the llc. And technically, you cannot copyright a language, but there are ways. Even that basic fact gets complicated because you can copyright materials in that language. And maybe if you copyright enough materials of something like Lakota that doesn't have a standardized version, you can end up owning a language essentially, in that you can control how it's taught or learned, who has access to materials. There's, like, a broader discussion about this all over the world, but I want to share one example. So something like this happened with the Penobscot Nation in Maine, where one linguist basically ended up copyrighting so much of their language materials that it was pretty much like he owned it. And that ownership didn't go back to the tribe once that linguist died. The way copyright law works, it will eventually go into the public domain. And that's not what a lot of tribes want either. So going back to the llc, they control more than just the written works that they've copyrighted. When they record Lakota speakers, they have speakers sign release forms.

[BA Parker]

That's how it usually goes, right?

[Christina Kahla]

It is. But for a while, the LLC was on the far end of the spectrum, because until Alex Firethunder joined the organization, the LLC was the sole owner of the materials they gathered. Now, speakers have more choice when it comes to who ultimately owns the recording. But before, through those previous forms, the LLC was asserting ownership over an initial recording, as well as whatever was shared and whatever was developed from that original source material, including things like stories that Ray's grandmother told or pictures. The LLC shot of Dolores.

[Caleb Thompson]

I was completely shocked.

[Alex Firethunder]

I was.

[Caleb Thompson]

I was really hurt by that. How can an outside entity keep my grandmother from me?

[Christina Kahla]

Ray, as the appointed spokesman for his family on the issue, has been trying to get his grandmother's materials from the llc.

[Ray Taken Alive]

What I want is all of the intellectual property rights given back to our family. All the audio, the recordings, the pictures, the licensing, everything. The full assignment of rights being given back to our family.

[Christina Kahla]

The LLC says they did share Dolores recordings with Ray's family. According to a post on their website, they returned recordings to Ray's family in September of 2020 and again in September of 2021. But the more fundamental point of tension seems to be that Rey's version of getting those Materials back and the LLC's version differ. Ray says the LLC gave him copies. He wants the originals. Ray says he wants Dolores voice and her image to be protected under federal and tribal law so no one can exploit or make money off of them. Because without the originals, it's still someone else's call about what can be done with the materials, who can use them, how they can be referenced. We cannot withdraw the copyright because unless we're given a perpetual license to continue to use the material because the dictionary. During the hearing, yon said the LLC is a publishing house, and they've published their dictionary, their grammar book, their textbooks. They do offer some materials for free, like their dictionary app. But withdrawing copyrights would mean stopping the presses. And who's going to benefit from that? Are the schools going to benefit from the fact that we have to stop printing the dictionary that Dolores taken live, want it to be printed for posterity?

[Alex Firethunder]

We sell it because it costs money to print. And people, you know, people buy them for our schools. They have to buy textbooks and things. But really, I can't, like, I cannot put a price tag on it for you. It's. It's invaluable to me.

[Christina Kahla]

These language materials are invaluable to Alex, but Dolores recordings are invaluable to Ray, too.

[Ray Taken Alive]

You know, my grandma would say things and she would give me a word and she'd say, tacos, that one's not in the dictionary. And I wish I could hold on to those. I wish I would have really sunk my teeth into those and held onto those.

[BA Parker]

So what's he doing to get his grandma back?

[Christina Kahla]

So for the past three years, Ray has been pushing some boundaries. He asked the LLC in private messages and emails as well as through social media to stop using Dolores materials. He shared videos, calling out the LLC and publicizing what's happening. And in October 2021, Ray confronted the LLC at an indigenous education conference. That's my grandma. You don't have permission to do this. Ray grabbed stacks of pamphlets with Dolores image on them from an LLC table. This was all recorded. He posted that video online, which wound up ruffling some feathers. All of this escalated to a cease and desist letter from the LLC and later a 23 page complaint against Ray with the South Dakota education department's ethics board. Mr. Tickle will testify that my clients were improperly displaying an image of his grandmother Dolores taken alive on two of.

[BA Parker]

Their sets of materials, which is how we ended up at that ethics hearing in Pierre, South Dakota.

[Christina Kahla]

Yeah, that was the LLC's lawyer. You just heard Matthew Minsky laying out their case against Ray in the most in an extreme scenario for Ray. Because of the LLC's complaint, Ray could have lost his teaching license when he decided to create his own set of Lakota learning materials and introduced them at McLaughlin School District.

[Alex Firethunder]

Plainly, Mr. Tate and Wyatt's conduct constitutes theft.

[Christina Kahla]

Since this occurred in Nebraska, we have to look.

[BA Parker]

Hold up. The LLC was accusing Ray of theft for making language materials with copyrighted LLC stuff?

[Christina Kahla]

It sure sounds like it. Which was one of Ray's big issues from the beginning. The idea that he could be given his grandmother's stuff back but still not be entitled to use it.

[Caleb Thompson]

That's like saying, we gave you your land back and then accusing you of trespassing. Did you really get your land back?

[BA Parker]

This is like Shakespearean intrigue. The theft, the betrayal, the fight over a family legacy. But, Christina.

[Christina Kahla]

Mm.

[BA Parker]

After hearing these different people express their perspectives, I guess I'm wondering, like, who's right?

[Christina Kahla]

Yeah.

[BA Parker]

Is Ray justified in wanting his grandmother's materials back and wanting the tribe to have control over the Lakota language? Or is the LLC justified in wanting to hold tight to these copyrights so that they can continue producing language materials that do benefit communities?

[Christina Kahla]

Oof. So it depends on how you look at that. You can analyze it in legal terms, in practical terms, in ethical terms.

[Jane Anderson]

One of the challenges of copyright law is that we're working within a realm of property and making things into property that perhaps should never be considered property in the first place.

[Christina Kahla]

That's Jane Anderson. She's a lawyer who specializes in copyright law and issues of Indigenous sovereignty.

[Jane Anderson]

And so copyright law upholds a certain kind of property logic. And that runs counter to how Indigenous peoples and communities understand their language materials, for instance, not as property, but as cultural gifts that continue from the ancestors into the future. That's not property.

[Christina Kahla]

So, Parker, there are laws and regulations that were specifically designed to protect Indigenous cultures. The United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples says Indigenous peoples have the right to revitalize, use, develop, and transmit their histories, languages, oral traditions, philosophies, writing systems, literatures. Then there's the Native American Language act of 1990, and it states that it's US policy to promote the rights of Native Americans to use, practice, and develop, develop Native American languages. And tribal nations also have their own protections and their own laws. In the case of the Standing Rock Sioux Nation, where Ray is a citizen, where Dolores was a citizen, there's a language resolution that was passed by Tribal Council Resolution 150 22. In which standing Rock asserts, quote, inherent retained intellectual property rights, end quote, in perpetuity. So forever for anything related to the language and anything recorded or photos taken of any tribal member and their descendants.

[BA Parker]

That seems pointed.

[Christina Kahla]

It is.

[Jane Anderson]

Copyright law really was not developed as a tool to support oral cultures or indigenous people generally. It was a tool to support written cultures and to exploit knowledge. There's already an inherent imbalance that sits within the law.

[Christina Kahla]

So all of these questions about, you know, who controls the Lakota language, who does it belong to? Maybe it's not just a legal problem.

[Jane Anderson]

It's an ethical. It's an equity, It's a historical justice problem.

[Christina Kahla]

This conversation around ownership is happening in a lot of different spaces, and it's changing quickly. Jane noted that in asking who owns the language, we're maybe using the wrong kinds of words and concepts.

[BA Parker]

Okay, so what would she suggest instead?

[Christina Kahla]

Stewardship.

[BA Parker]

Hmm.

[Christina Kahla]

And with stewardship, a different combination of people can be part of decision making. Tribal council, elders, they can all weigh in with different levels of authority, which leads to a different kind of relationship, but also different kinds of questions.

[Jane Anderson]

How do you look after the ecosystem around language, Language speaking, cultural knowledge that comes from language? That is a lot bigger than just, you know, who owns this tape?

[BA Parker]

So where does this leave Ray and Alex right now?

[Christina Kahla]

So Ray got to keep his teaching license going back to that hearing. All right, yeah, he's still doing curriculum work. He's actually working with Marvel to create a Lakota language dub of the Avengers through Standing Rock. But Ray still doesn't have the rights to his grandmother's materials. So he's still working with Standing Rock to figure out a way to get them like that. Very small and also very big fight is very much still happening.

[BA Parker]

All right, what about Alex?

[Christina Kahla]

Alex is now the executive director of the llc. So he's the head of that organization and has the most individual power to change things. And his tribe supports the LLC's work. The Oglala Sioux Tribe passed a resolution in January seeking funding for LLC programming. But Alex is now dealing with the same big questions that Jan was about. How to both share ownership and maintain copyrights so you can print materials.

[BA Parker]

So Ray and Alex are kind of at an impasse.

[Christina Kahla]

They kind of are at an impasse, and in a way, so is the language. You know, for all of the work that Alex and Ray are both doing individually, the number of fluent Lakota speakers has gone down, and that's frustrating.

[Alex Firethunder]

We wouldn't be in this situation with our language if it weren't for the colonial systems that have been imposed on us. For me, like, the overlying mission is to do what's best for the language and dividing our people is not what's best for the language.

[Christina Kahla]

You know, we've been talking to the younger generation who is part of this story now. But all of this makes me think of Dolores again and some of what her grandfather told her.

[Dolores Taken Alive]

Don't ever lose your Lakota language. Always remember and speak your Lakota language.

[BA Parker]

I feel like Ray and Alex are both kind of holding fast to that.

[Christina Kahla]

In their own ways they are, but they're focusing on different parts of the message. Alex is focused on the don't lose it part. He's doing everything he can to make sure that the Lakota language is codified and written down and preserved so it can never be lost. But for Ray, it seems like the focus is on the idea that Lakota, this is his language and this language, the Lakota language, it belongs to the Lakota people. Here's Dolores again.

[Dolores Taken Alive]

No matter how educated you are, in order for you to translate our Lakota language, which is ours, but if I speak my truest Lakota language, you won't be able to translate that.

[Christina Kahla]

And that's worth remembering, too, that different people, Jan, Wilhelm, Jane, you, me, we can all think about the situation and try to make sense of it and debate who's right and who's wrong. But maybe there's a truer, deeper, more fundamental part of the story that we'll never be able to quite capture because it's not ours and we don't have the words to hear it. And that's our show. You can follow us on Instagram at nprcodeswitch. If email is more your thing, ours is codeswitchpr.org and subscribe to the podcast on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also subscribe to the Code Switch newsletter by going to npr.org.

[BA Parker]

Just wanted to give a quick shout out to our Code Switch plus listeners. We appreciate you and thank you for being a subscriber. Subscribing to Code Switch means getting to listen to all of our episodes without any sponsor breaks, and it also helps support our show. So if you love our work, please consider signing [e-mail] code switch this episode.

[Christina Kahla]

Was produced by Xavier Lopez, Courtney Stein and me. It was edited by Leah Donnella and Courtney Stein. Our engineer was Robert Rodriguez.

[BA Parker]

And a big shout out to the rest of the Code Switch Jess Kung, Dalia Mortada, Skylar Swenson, Cher, Vincent Verilyn Williams, Gene Demby and Lori Lizraga.

[Christina Kahla]

Special thanks to Kevin Voelkel, Gram, Lee Brewer, Johannes Dergi, Kimimila Locke, Sam Yellowhorse Kessler and Alexi Horowitz Ghazi. And we just wanted to acknowledge Nicole E. Duchenneau, who died in 2023, but whose work continues to shape these critical conversations around indigenous sovereignty.

[BA Parker]

I'm BA Parker.

[Christina Kahla]

I'm Christina Kala.

[BA Parker]

Hi.

[Christina Kahla]

Drait hasta pronto. To everyone else this is a task, but to you this is opportunity.

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[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Christina Kahla]

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[BA Parker]

Yeah. Head to your Nordstrom Rack store to.

[Christina Kahla]

Score great brands, great prices, the greatest gifts of all time.