Indigenish

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Copernic Affair | Canadaland Investigates Episode: Indigenish
Release Date: June 18, 2024

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Overview

In the episode titled "Indigenish," Canadaland's investigative team, led by journalists Dana Ballout and Alex Atack, delves deep into the contentious and sensitive issue of "Pretendians" in Canada—individuals who falsely claim Indigenous heritage. Through personal narratives, expert insights, and critical analysis, the episode explores the motivations behind such pretensions, the impact on genuine Indigenous communities, and the broader societal implications of identity fraud.

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1. Introduction to Pretendians

The episode opens with hosts Robert Jago and Angel Ellis discussing the perplexing phenomenon of people pretending to be Indigenous. Robert expresses his confusion about why individuals go to such lengths to maintain a false identity, questioning whether these individuals genuinely believe in their fabricated heritage.

Robert Jago [00:12]: "It just seems like so much work, keeping up the act all the time."

Angel Ellis [00:23]: "Some of them are running money scams... trying to get cast in a movie or get out of jail early."

Key Points:

• Motivations Behind Pretendence: Financial gain, social perks, career advantages, or personal escapism.
• Self-Deception: Many Pretendians may unconsciously believe in their fabricated identity.

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2. Challenges in Addressing Pretendence

Robert and Angel recount their attempts to interview high-profile Pretendians, such as Elizabeth Warren and Elizabeth Hoover. Despite genuine apologies from some, like Hoover, the hosts face resistance in engaging further with these individuals.

Elizabeth Hoover [02:05]: "I'm a white person who has incorrectly identified as Native my whole life... I am deeply sorry."

Key Points:

• Apologies and Accountability: Some Pretendians recognize their mistakes and apologize, yet suffer harassment and threats.
• Difficulty in Dialogue: High-profile individuals often decline further interviews, hindering deeper exploration of the issue.

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3. Personal Stories of Discovery

The episode features testimonies from individuals who discovered through DNA testing that their Indigenous heritage was overstated or unfounded. Three primary narratives are highlighted:

• Jennifer (Pseudonym) [10:26]: Raised with stories of Indigenous ancestry in Montana, Jennifer discovers her DNA results show only about 2% Native American heritage. This revelation clashes with her upbringing, leading to a reevaluation of her identity amidst family trauma involving substance abuse and loss.

  Jennifer [13:05]: "I have learned more about my grandmother in her death than I ever knew alive."

• Ali (Pseudonym) [10:44]: Converts to Islam, changes his name, and grapples with his mixed heritage, questioning his true ancestral roots beyond superficial family claims.

  Ali [21:02]: "I've always been like a big white guy."

• Andrea (Pseudonym) [11:12]: Identifies as "native but detribalized," seeking connection with her supposed Yaqui and Pima ancestry despite lack of official tribal enrollment.

  Andrea [27:02]: "They stole our future generations."

Key Points:

• Impact of DNA Testing: Services like 23andMe and Ancestry.com reveal surprising or conflicting ancestry results.
• Family Lore vs. Genetic Reality: Discrepancies between family stories and genetic evidence lead to personal identity crises.
• Intergenerational Trauma: Many individuals navigate their newfound identities amidst family histories of trauma and discrimination.

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4. The Broader Impact on Indigenous Communities

The hosts discuss how Pretendians threaten Indigenous sovereignty and the preservation of authentic cultural identities. The episode references a United Nations forum where Indigenous leaders voiced that Pretendians pose an existential threat to their nations.

Richard Abamshiwin [37:05]: "When everyone's an Indian, no one is in my nation... This must be stopped."

Key Points:

• Sovereignty and Self-Determination: Genuine Indigenous communities emphasize the importance of self-recognition and the dangers of external claims diluting their identities.
• Economic and Social Consequences: Inflated membership numbers can strain resources, reduce financial distributions, and undermine tribal governance.
• Cultural Appropriation and Theft: Pretendians often adopt Indigenous cultures superficially, disregarding the profound historical and cultural contexts.

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5. Legislative and Media Responses

The episode highlights ongoing legislative efforts that may inadvertently legitimize Pretendians, such as a Canadian bill recognizing sovereign governments based on deceptive claims. Real Indigenous voices criticize such measures, advocating for stricter recognition protocols.

Angel Ellis [34:33]: "The very week that we launched the series, Pretendians became the number one issue for indigenous nations at the UN level."

Key Points:

• Policy Implications: Laws and policies need to balance self-identification with protecting Indigenous rights and identities.
• Media Responsibility: Media outlets, including Canadaland itself, acknowledge the importance of accurate representation and accountability in reporting on identity issues.

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6. Constructive Approaches and Community Perspectives

Robert Jago shares insights from Robert Hall, a storyteller at Glacier National Park, who adopts a compassionate yet boundary-respecting stance towards individuals claiming Indigenous identity without proof.

Robert Hall [33:38]: "I just gave her a hug and I said, welcome home if you ever want to come back someday. We're here."

Key Points:

• Empathy vs. Enforcement: Balancing understanding of personal identity struggles with the need to uphold community integrity.
• Community-Led Recognition: Emphasizing that only Indigenous nations have the authority to recognize and enroll their members.

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7. Concluding Reflections

The episode wraps up by stressing the importance of addressing Pretendian issues not just on an individual level but through systemic changes. It calls for broader awareness, respectful dialogue, and support for genuine Indigenous communities facing the detrimental effects of identity fraud.

Angel Ellis [32:23]: "The worst offenders are really dangerous to tribal sovereignty. And the regular folks trying to figure out their families have my sympathy."

Key Points:

• Urgent Call to Action: Indigenous communities and allies must advocate for policies and practices that prevent identity fraud.
• Support for Genuine Individuals: Providing resources and support for those navigating complex identities without harming authentic Indigenous identities.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Robert Jago [00:12]: "It just seems like so much work, keeping up the act all the time."
• Elizabeth Hoover [02:05]: "I am deeply sorry."
• Jennifer [10:26]: "I have learned more about my grandmother in her death than I ever knew alive."
• Richard Abamshiwin [37:05]: "This must be stopped."
• Angel Ellis [32:23]: "The worst offenders are really dangerous to tribal sovereignty."

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Conclusion

"Indigenish" provides a comprehensive exploration of the Pretendian phenomenon, blending personal narratives with critical analysis to shed light on a complex issue affecting Indigenous communities in Canada. By amplifying authentic voices and examining the multifaceted motivations behind identity fraud, Canadaland invites listeners to engage thoughtfully with the challenges of cultural identity and sovereignty in a modern context.

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Additional Information

• Hosts:

  • Robert Jago: Freelance writer from the Kwantlen First Nation and Nooksack Indian Tribe.
  • Angel Ellis: Citizen of the Muscogee Creek Nation, experienced journalist.

• Production Team:

  • Executive Producer and Editor: Jesse Brown
  • Additional Production: Caleb Thompson
  • Contributing Editor: Julie Shapiro
  • Editor-in-Chief: Karen Pulesi
  • Special Thanks: Rebecca Lassard, editor of the documentary Red Fever.

For more in-depth stories and investigative journalism, listeners are encouraged to support Canadaland through their website canadaland.com/join.

Transcript

[Robert Jago]

Canada Land funded by you angel. This is the last episode of our season and there's still one big thing I don't really understand. Maybe you do.

[Angel Ellis]

What's the big thing?

[Robert Jago]

I still don't understand why people become pretendiates. It's still just so weird to me that people do this. It just seems like so much work, keeping up the act all the time.

[Angel Ellis]

I mean, we have talked about the benefits though. Some of them are running money scams. Some of them are trying to get the cushy job or the perks that are meant for natives. And some of them are trying to get cast in a movie or get out of jail early. There's a lot of clear reasons why people fake it.

[Robert Jago]

True. But how many of them know they're faking it? Don't you get the feeling that most of these people, maybe even all of them, actually believe they're legit?

[Angel Ellis]

Yeah, they really do seem to have convinced themselves. So, Robert, here's an idea for our last episode. Why don't we just ask the people why they fake it?

[Robert Jago]

Well, we tried that with Guillaume Carl and you see how that went.

[Angel Ellis]

The people that don't believe I'm native.

[Jennifer]

They can kiss my Indian ass.

[Robert Jago]

You can't just go to somebody who's still faking it. They'll just tell you, I'm not faking.

[Angel Ellis]

True, but there are folks who have come clean and they've apologized. Like Elizabeth Warren, for instance.

[Elizabeth Warren]

I am not a tribal citizen. Tribes and only tribes determine citizenship. When I was growing up in Oklahoma, those were our family stories that said there really is an important distinction of tribal citizenship. I am not a member of a tribe and I have apologized for not being more sensitive to that distinction.

[Robert Jago]

We asked Elizabeth Warren if she'd come talk to us some more about this, but we never heard back.

[Angel Ellis]

So how about, say, Elizabeth Hoover?

[Robert Jago]

Okay. People might remember her from a New Yorker article about pretendience. She's a profit Berkeley University. And here's the apology she wrote after she was exposed.

[Angel Ellis]

I'm a white person who has incorrectly identified as Native my whole life based on incomplete information. I caused harm. I hurt Native people who have been my friends, colleagues, students and family. I acknowledge that I could have prevented all this hurt by investigating and confirming my family story sooner. And for this, I am deeply sorry.

[Robert Jago]

It's not a bad apology.

[Angel Ellis]

It's not.

[Robert Jago]

So we asked her to chat too. I figured she might be open, but she said no. She did write back to us and she talked about all of the hate she's been receiving all the harassment and death threats she said. Anyone listening to this podcast is probably just looking for new fodder to come throw at her. Here's a line from her email. I want to quote it directly. I doubt me being honest would do anything to lower the stakes for anyone considering exploring the nuances of a multi generational identity that turned out to not be what they expected or were taught.

[Angel Ellis]

So to me, it's kind of interesting that she fully understands and says that she's not native, but her identity is still nuanced. I think there's something worth talking about here, and I wish she had said yes.

[Robert Jago]

None of the famous or notable Pretendians who've been exposed would agree to come talk about it with us. But angel, we did have some luck.

[Angel Ellis]

We did. There's tons of regular people out there who thought they were Native all their lives, who presented themselves as natives and who then learned that that's just not the truth.

[Robert Jago]

And there are others who are kind of in the process of learning that they're not indigenous or maybe not as indigenous as they'd hoped.

[Angel Ellis]

So we reached out and some of them did put their hand up and agree to talk to us today for the last episode of the season where we find out firsthand why people just decide that they're Native, what the appeal is, and how they deal with it. Once they figure out that they're not quite Native but still maybe kind of sort of connected, it gets complicated, Robert. So let's just get into it.

[Robert Jago]

Well, what the hell were you thinking? Your reasons why I'm condensing Did you need a place where you would fit? Were you looking for a drum to hit you? Thought the answer was there in your spit, but nope. There buddy, that just ain't it. From Canada Land this is Pretendians, the show where we investigate the fakes, frauds, phonies, and sometimes a totally normal, well meaning person who shakes their family tree and has a coconut fall right on their head. My name is Robert Jago. I'm a freelance writer from the Kwantlen First Nation and Nooksack Indian Tribe, and.

[Angel Ellis]

I'm Angel Ellis, citizen of the Muscogee Creek Nation located in Okmulgee, Oklahoma, and I have been a journalist for about 15 years.

[Elizabeth Warren]

SA.

[Angel Ellis]

Hello, it's Giles Whittell from Tortoise.

[Robert Jago]

Welcome to the news meeting. I think the danger here is that we're not as relentless as we were.

[Angel Ellis]

The first time around.

[Robert Jago]

We have to keep that up.

[Andrea]

Just one newspaper found 30,000 thousand lies or falsehoods or misleading statements during his last term. Now Trump met the moment here because traditional media is in crisis, we should.

[Robert Jago]

Be talking about how our reporting is getting into the hands of people and how we're building trust with those audiences. ACAST powers the World's Best Podcasts Here's a show that we recommend.

[Jonathan Fields]

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[Robert Jago]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news. So I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner and I'm back with season three of On Drugs. And this time it's gonna get personal.

[Andrea]

I don't know who sober Jeff is.

[Angel Ellis]

I don't even know if I like that guy.

[Robert Jago]

On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. Staying on top of Canadian news does not have to be boring. Canadaland is a podcast that brings you the news differently.

[Angel Ellis]

All reporters break original news stories that you hear anywhere else and our hosts and guests have funny and smart conversations.

[Robert Jago]

About what is happening in Canadian politics and media.

[Angel Ellis]

We're living through an era of heightened anxiety and fear.

[Jennifer]

This Prime Minister is not worth the cost, crime and corruption. I am not a KGB agent.

[Robert Jago]

Listen to Canada Land wherever you get your podcasts.

[Angel Ellis]

So Robert, one reason why people are suddenly declaring themselves Native, a reason we haven't really talked about yet is ancestry.com I mean that plus a lot of people are getting those spit in a tube. Mail away Internet DNA test. You know.

[Jennifer]

Hello everybody.

[Robert Jago]

On today's video I will be reacting to 23andMe. How Native American am I? If y'all remember, a while ago I did a 23andMe video. A way to connect to my indigenous roots.

[Elizabeth Warren]

Alright, so guys, my Results.

[Jennifer]

I'm confused.

[Elizabeth Warren]

My dad's mom is actually Narraganset Indian, so my aunt actually dances at a lot of powwows.

[Robert Jago]

Yeah, I know. So in order to find some people who thought they were indigenous and then learned otherwise, we posted to a DNA forum and an ancestry forum on Reddit. This is where thousands of people come to discuss their search for their roots and everything they learned from 23andMe and services like that.

[Angel Ellis]

Now, as we've discussed, this genetic stuff, this blood quantum business, sure, it can tell you if you had an indigenous person somewhere way back in your family tree, as many people do, but it doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you can actually qualify for citizenship in a tribe, a band, or a First Nation.

[Robert Jago]

And one quick thing to note is that in many cases, especially with older tests, you can't tell. There just aren't enough samples from many first nations and tribes and bands to really pin down the DNA to that specific group. So depending on the test, it can't tell the difference between indigenous ancestry in Quebec and indigenous ancestry in the Yucatan or Argentina. Okay, so here's the open call we put out. We said we were looking for people who grew up believing a family story about having a native ancestor, but who then got a DNA test that showed that story to be false. We got more than 300 responses. A few of those people agreed to talk with us.

[Angel Ellis]

Let's start with someone we'll call Jennifer.

[Elizabeth Warren]

I mean, my dad always said I'm half Native American, so it was a little bit of a shock to get the results of that genetic test back and be like, just around 2%. I got the results back, and it was like this huge chunk of, like, Eastern European and then Swedish.

[Robert Jago]

Now, here's the guy we will call Ali.

[Jennifer]

I was raised. I call it Native adjacent. I was about 8 years old, and it was right before my biological father left. And one of my cousins told me, hey, did you know that we're part Indian? So I was like, no, I didn't. And she said, yeah, her grandma was Indian. That night, I asked my father. He had probably been drinking most of the day, and he looked at me and said, that's bullshit. She was white. Don't ever ask me about her again.

[Angel Ellis]

Finally, here's the woman we'll call. Andrea.

[Andrea]

Yes, from my mother's side. They said that they were Native American, my great grandmother, but she never registered. So my mom lives in Northern California, and she does participate in a lot of the powwows. I don't really Know what I am. And, well, I'm technically native, but the term I use is native but detribalized. Like I'm not part of the tribe, you know.

[Robert Jago]

Okay, so we spoke to those three people directly and heard back from dozens more via email. And we did notice some trends.

[Angel Ellis]

So the first thing to note is what you might call the lore aspect. So many of these people grow up with family lore. Second and third hand stories about someone in the family tree who didn't quite look like everyone else. Whispered stories about maybe a Cherokee grandma, a black sheep uncle with high cheekbones, you know, a little color in the family that they just can't quite explain.

[Andrea]

One of my grandmothers on my mother's side, they say that she was really hard for her because she looked really native.

[Elizabeth Warren]

He very much looks like he could have grown up on that reservation. He has like the hair, the coloring of my mom, olive skin and just like dark hair. And he has that, but he also has those really high cheekbones and his facial structures just like my dad's.

[Jennifer]

My guess is my uncle told me that a friend of his native woman from Arizona that he worked with encouraged him to reach out to the tribe. I think I'm, you know, somewhere between, like, I don't think I'm a quarter. I'd be between like an 8th and a 16th.

[Robert Jago]

Another thing that popped out is that all three of these people are trying to deal with family trauma. Different kinds of bad stuff happened to their families in the past.

[Elizabeth Warren]

She didn't talk about her childhood, but I know that she also had a lot of trauma in her childhood. And so I don't blame her for not wanting to talk about that. I mean, like, that's ugly stuff.

[Jennifer]

I have learned more about my grandmother in her death than I ever knew alive. And she was a very broken woman. She was devastated at the pains of alcohol followed her throughout her life. She went on to have two children. After my father and his two brothers, they were removed from the home at different points. My oldest half uncle committed suicide in 85. My half aunt died of issues tied to a lifetime of drug and alcohol abuse in 2006, a couple years after her mother died.

[Andrea]

I kind of want to know why, like all the trauma, I know that a lot of them, I guess, like an understanding of why, I guess my grandparents are the way they are and the generational trauma from all these things that's happened to them.

[Elizabeth Warren]

Infidelity was really big with the both of them. Like he had an affair, she had one. To get back at him, she was seeing the chef at the restaurant she worked with at that time.

[Angel Ellis]

So I guess the third thing that they all seem to have in common is that they're all searchers. They're looking for something, you know, dealing with these things they don't have answers for, and they want them.

[Elizabeth Warren]

I'm just kind of curious. Like, I understand the genetics part. So this is like, one of those weird things where clearly there's some other blood in there that we just never knew. And I had a quick moment of, like, maybe my dad isn't our dad, period. I'm just curious now, like, where did this come from? Like, how. How did my grandmother. I. I don't know. Where did we come from? Who knows?

[Jennifer]

I started exploring, and, you know, that's. I've spent a lot of my time trying to navigate, learning about my past. But, you know, it's a little different when. When you, like, feel some kind of a kinship, but not. Not necessarily a belonging, if that makes sense. I have been. I call it native adjacent, but I've also been black adjacent and Latino adjacent. Right. You know, and queer adjacent.

[Andrea]

Just embracing the culture and learning. Like, you know, this is what my grandparents were participating in. Like, this is what they had before, you know, they were colonized. And understanding that kind of the aspect of, you know, the different culture, you.

[Jennifer]

Know, I mean, I think people yearn for some kind of connection and community. And the other thing is, I think people yearn to be different.

[Robert Jago]

Angel, I want to spend a bit of time with that first voice everyone heard. It belongs to a woman who we'll call Jennifer. We've asked each of these people to give us a pseudonym because based on that story we heard from Elizabeth Hoover, it could be really ugly online, and we don't want people to come after them. So this woman chose the name Jennifer. And Jennifer lives in rural Georgia. And she's noteworthy because she's the only person we spoke to who seems to truly accept that what she believed all her life is just not the truth. Jennifer grew up with stories of her indigenous ancestry in Montana.

[Elizabeth Warren]

Our grandmother, my dad's mother, is, from what I was always told, 100% Santisu. She lived on the reservation her whole life. Registered member of the tribe. I mean, my dad always said, I'm half Native American. He thought he was a pretty good liar when he wants to be. So in his mind, he was 50%. Like, in the summers when we went to Montana to stay with them, we go to powwows and stuff. It was never, like, this huge part of my identity. Like, oh, I'm native. I didn't, like, really claim it. My dad refuses. He has a thing against, like, government interference and all this stuff. So he never wanted to register as a member of the tribe. That's one of the reasons he moved to Montana, so he could live off the grid.

[Angel Ellis]

So, Robert, some people pull the idea of being native out of thin air. That just isn't the case here with Jennifer. Her dad gave her a lot of reasons to believe that she's native when.

[Elizabeth Warren]

He moved into Montana in the summers. We literally go there in summers and live in a teepee. And I'm not joking. Like, it was on a foundation, like a wood foundation up off the ground because of rain and stuff in the spring. And it had, like, a wood stove in the middle, and it had a loft. It was huge. But a canvas teepee, and I loved it. My husband still, like, makes fun of me because he's like, well, tell people you spent your summers in a tv. There's just a lot of native people there, and they kind of like rodeos there. Powwows are a really cool thing to go to. Really good food, the dancing, music and the, like, it just was. It was a part of my childhood.

[Robert Jago]

I really liked a grandma on the rez, a dad who lives off the grid and who built her a teepee. Some are fun at the powwows. Can you imagine what chaos it was when Jennifer learned the truth?

[Elizabeth Warren]

It was a little bit of a shock to get the results of that genetic test back and be, like, just around 2%. I mean, it's kind of like an identity thing. I kind of thought I knew more about my family than. I guess I do. I guess I don't really know a lot about my family that I thought I knew, which is an interesting feeling. I'm not gonna lie. Our grandmother, my dad's mother. I mean, I've seen pictures of her mom and her brother. She's definitely native. I mean, like, where did this come from? How did my grandmother. I mean, obviously she's her mother's daughter, but she's very white passing.

[Robert Jago]

So, angel, what do you think that is? Because I have a sneaking suspicion what the story is there.

[Angel Ellis]

Something, to me, says that the tribe needs to really investigate and see if they have any of these $5 Indians on the rolls.

[Robert Jago]

And, Angela, we haven't really talked about that term before. $5 Indian. How would you define that?

[Angel Ellis]

Back in the day, land agents took bribes to allow people onto tribal roles. They paid money in order to be considered Native to get land. And the term that is used for that is five dollar Indian. You paid to get on the Indian citizenship roll.

[Robert Jago]

Jennifer may have had lots of reasons to think she was native, but she also had lots of reasons to suspect that maybe she wasn't.

[Elizabeth Warren]

I'm definitely European. I'm a ton Swedish, which is my dad's dad. Even when I look at him though, he's definitely Swedish. I mean, obviously I am. I am blonde. It was like white blonde when I was younger. It's kind of a darker blonde now. And I highlight with the sun. I have no eyebrows when I don't put them on.

[Angel Ellis]

So just going to kind of take a moment to defend the blonde natives who are really, really natives, that we exist.

[Robert Jago]

So as a bald person, I don't really feel able to comment here, but I think you'll agree that Jennifer seems really genuine and honest and forthcoming and thoughtful and all those sorts of good things.

[Angel Ellis]

I really like that she's taking this as an opportunity to acknowledge that maybe those family legends aren't hard facts.

[Robert Jago]

You know, the fact that she's so nice is why I held my breath a bit when I asked her the question I had to ask her before she got the test results back when she still thought she was really native. Did she by chance take advantage of any, any of the opportunities that are out there for natives? For example, I asked her, did she tick the native box on her college application?

[Elizabeth Warren]

Yeah. Verbally, yes, because I thought I was. I haven't had to do it lately, but now I'm like, I probably shouldn't because I'm not. I'm definitely European. So it would make me feel like I was lying, even if it was a lie that I believed for a long time on information that I was given. Now I know. And like, I would feel. I don't know if that's taking away from anybody else's experience, but I kind of feel like maybe it would be like I feel like I'm not. So I shouldn't like, claim that I.

[Angel Ellis]

Kind of like Jennifer. She seems like a good human.

[Robert Jago]

I do too. I. I think all of this was a lot for her, but she handled it with a lot of grace and consideration for other people. But as people are about to hear each of these stories, beyond the uncanny things they all have in common, end up being completely different. Like that guy whose voice everyone heard earlier.

[Jennifer]

Boy howdy. Yeah, it kind of blew me away.

[Robert Jago]

I'm like, wow, so that's Ali. And again, we're using pseudonyms, but we Chose a pseudonym for Ali that's similar to his real name in that his real name was not the name he was born with.

[Jennifer]

I have a Middle Eastern name. I converted to Islam when I was like 15, but when I was 19, I changed my name. I have like five ancestors that were on the Mayflower. I mean, I'm 6 5. You know, I've always been like a big white guy.

[Robert Jago]

Ali is a pretty singular kind of big white guy. And as you'll hear in a moment, he threw us both for another loop. I'm guessing that most of the Canadians listening to this right now already listen to Canadaland, the Americans. I'm not so sure. For over 10 years, Canadaland has been publishing weekly episodes that look critically at the media, break news stories, and bring listeners like you perspectives from across Canada that you won't find anywhere else. Angel, since you started working on the show, have you been listening? Have you been catching up in all things across the medicine line?

[Angel Ellis]

People are always telling me that you Canadians are nice, polite, boring folks. But I've been listening to some news stories and holy cow, the stereotypes are wrong. You guys are wild. I've heard stories about medical cover ups, election interference, right wing trolls, racism, messed up policing, and something called a pokeroo. Anyway, you guys are like the US but with less guns and a younger, better looking president or leader, whatever you call him. I've learned a lot.

[Robert Jago]

Yep, Canadians are just as awful and outrageous and messed up as Americans are. They just hide it better.

[Angel Ellis]

I'm learning that.

[Robert Jago]

Robert, you can listen to and follow Canadaland anywhere you get your podcasts. So remember Rachel Dolezal for sure.

[Angel Ellis]

We name checked Rachel Dolezal in the first episode. She's the white lady who lived her life pretending to be black, but as it turns out, we made a mistake about who she pretended to be before that.

[Robert Jago]

Yeah, it's true that her father made claims about the Dolezal's having American Indian ancestry, but what we said is that before she masqueraded as a black person, she was a full out pretendian. And it turns out that a source in that was a very dry piece of satire that got repeated in a bunch of places and we thought it was true and we put it on the show. So this is our first correction and it is embarrassing.

[Angel Ellis]

We regret that error, as we say in the biz, but we need to.

[Robert Jago]

Keep talking about Rachel Dolezal because her name came up out of the blue when we were interviewing Ali.

[Jennifer]

So Rachel and I taught at the same university and in the same program. But Rachel didn't spend much time on White Folks, right? So there was some irony in that. Like when things started to fall down around her, it was like, oh, wow, this is bad. So I knew her, we taught in the same program, never really interacted. I shamefully admit to laughing at some of the memes for the first, like, month after she was outed because there was some terribly funny memes and I was dying. In hindsight, you know, I look back at that and I'm actually ashamed that I, that I shared those with the people that I shared them with because, you know, they were just hurtful. Again, going back to the whole notion of intergenerational trauma, I don't know what happened to that woman in her life, but something had to happen to. I mean, to hate yourself enough that you are going to absolutely co opt and double down on the co option. I mean, something bad had to happen with her life. Something not right happened with and to her. And I feel bad for being part of the forces that were making fun of her when her life was falling apart. When I think of the whole pretending thing, the first thing I think about is who wants to be the native Rachel Dozel. Nobody wants that. I don't think so, Robert.

[Angel Ellis]

I'm, I'm glad we played that whole story, not just because it's absolutely bonkers, but also because of the way Ali feels ashamed of making fun of Rachel Dolezal. I don't feel the same way, but talking to these people has really shaped how I'm seeing the issue. I have a lot more sympathy for folks trying to figure this stuff out, but folks like Dolezal or that biker gang member or the guy declaring himself chief and making 50,000 fake tribal members, they can go kick rocks.

[Robert Jago]

Yeah, but just normal people like the ones who generously spoke to us today and who were so open about the personal stuff. I really don't have anything against them, and I don't think it's anybody's business the personal journeys they're on. These aren't the people who should be targets of suspected pretendience lists or public shaming or being called out and talking to them.

[Angel Ellis]

I kind of hope they find what they're looking for. You know, if there's a way for that to happen, that doesn't cost natives anything. I wish them well.

[Robert Jago]

So that brings us to Andrea, who's the last person we're going to hear from from our Reddit request.

[Andrea]

My mom lives in Northern California and she does participate in a lot of.

[Robert Jago]

The powwows and this one got kind of real.

[Andrea]

When the ancestry DNA started coming out and more people were like talking about it. I kind of was interested because I'm like, I don't really know what I am. And I just been told I'm Mexican. But Mexican is not a race. It's an ethnicity. One of my grandmothers, my. My mother's side, the Yaqui side, she said that she was really hard for her because she looked really native. And she said during that time, she said she, she just went through a lot of discrimination because she wasn't white and she just had a really hard time.

[Robert Jago]

So I got to say right off the bat, the Yaqui thing is a bit of a red flag. The Yaqui are one of those famous tribes that a lot of people claim. Another Britannian I spoke to also claimed Yaqui. Yaqui is to Mexico as Cherokee is to the US as Metis to Canada. Each is the default one you claim, if you don't know better.

[Angel Ellis]

The more Andrea told us about why she believed herself to be native, the more thin the connection seemed to be. It seems to me like she's really struggling with the concept of being considered a Mexican.

[Robert Jago]

Andrea believes her grandma was a fully native Yaqui, and not just Yaqui, but also a member of another tribe in New Mexico called the Pima. But she was never officially a member of either nation.

[Andrea]

She never registered. So that's what they said, that she just. There was a lot of trauma.

[Robert Jago]

So a lot of people have versions of this story of disconnection that discrimination and trauma and shame severed their ancestor from their native community. And now generations later, they want to reconnect.

[Angel Ellis]

That does seem to be a really common thread for sure.

[Robert Jago]

But in Andrea's case. Well, it wasn't just her grandma who never registered. Her grandma had seven brothers and sisters. Seven. And none of them enrolled. They all lived during the era of land allotments. So turning down free land and a place to live among other natives and instead choosing to live this life of discrimination among the general population. Well, it would seem pretty unusual for all eight of them to choose that. If you could register for a tribe, would you do it?

[Andrea]

If I could, yes. But it would be a different side to see. Like, you know, what I've been missing out on. Do you think that hurts your guys community?

[Robert Jago]

So there's a knowledge gap here. My community has nothing to do with Andrea's. The tribe she wants to get enrolled with is an entirely different nation, and I can't speak for them. So I tried explaining to her in general terms, how new members can hurt tribes. For example, there are some tribes out there that make a lot of money. And these tribes cut checks to each member every year. This is a thing that people say about Natives, and we say, oh, it's not true. It is kind of true sometimes in those cases, the more members they let in, the less money each person gets. You know, stuff like that.

[Andrea]

I have a question. Where does that leave people like me who are in the situation where. Where we're just kind of like, we don't really know. Like, how do you guys feel about people like me?

[Robert Jago]

I mean, with you, I think that it might just be a family story, the connection to the tribe. Just because it's unusual for one person not to be registered, but then to have eight people not registered on reservation is really very unusual because that's eight people turning down free land. I wouldn't understand the reasoning for that.

[Angel Ellis]

See, this is the heartbreaking part. I mean, who cares how I feel about it? These aren't the tribes that I belong to. I'm Muskogee, Creek and Yaqui and Pima tribes are totally different tribes. The only opinion that really matters when it comes to recognizing Andrea as Pima or Yaki is the Pima or Yaqui nations.

[Robert Jago]

Yeah, but Andrea does seem to accept that she'll never be enrolled. What she wants to know is, is that the end of the road for her quest for self discovery, or is there some other sort of way she could still identify as Native? And that's when she kind of flipped things on us and started interviewing us about all of these things.

[Andrea]

So you guys are okay with like outsiders coming in and trying to learn as long as they're being respectful. Just curious, are you guys for the blood of quantum or are you guys against what tribe are you from?

[Angel Ellis]

Just curious.

[Andrea]

How often do you guys rules change when it comes to registering? Just curious.

[Angel Ellis]

I understand that, like with Andrea, she was still needling for a way in. She still wants a way in, and I'm just not for that. Like, every nation has their way of identifying their people, and if they've told you no, you can just fuck off is kind of how I feel about it. I think a lot of this can be solved by just being really upfront. They could say, hey, I'm not a citizen of a tribe, but I think somebody back in my family history was.

[Robert Jago]

All of those people out there with 2% DNA or who think they have a Cherokee great grandma or whatever. I want to say this to the person listening who has some Remote Native ancestry, but not enough to become part of a First Nation or tribe. Be like Ali. During our interview, I asked Ali if he plans to continue to identify as Indigenous.

[Jennifer]

I mean, even if I could. I mean, I was not raised. I don't have the need. So if I'm able to make connections and if I can be of some service to folks out there, because I do plan to go back there this summer to kind of get a little bit of connection, meet. I mean, I guess I've talked to a couple of people from there, so I'd like to physically meet the people I've been talking to. I mean, that's for me, where, like, being able to say, okay, part of my family comes from Fort Peck, comes from being able to connect more meaningfully than just, you know, my. My grandmother was born there, if that makes sense. So I can provide some service, whether it's going back once a year and volunteering, doing something, whether it's volunteering with elders, volunteering with kids, something that I can do.

[Robert Jago]

He's like a nice dude.

[Angel Ellis]

He's talking about giving something back instead of taking away of all the ways.

[Robert Jago]

To do it, that seems like the nicest way to do it. He has the exact right approach. When you hit that dead end, you stop saying, I'm indigenous, I'm Creek, I'm Cherokee. And you say, as Ali does, part of my family comes from Fort Peck or the Creek Nation or the Cherokee Nation. And then you work to connect with people and community and build a connection. If you're so inclined, you become happily, in his terms, Native adjacent.

[Angel Ellis]

Robert. I have learned a lot this season. The worst offenders are really dangerous to tribal sovereignty. And the regular folks trying to figure out their families have my sympathy. It sounds really, really rough.

[Robert Jago]

Yeah. I've been thinking a lot about what this guy Robert hall said to me.

[Robert Hall]

I do. I'm a storyteller at Glacier National Park. I've had many people tell me they're. They're Indian. So I have a lot of people, oh, I'm Cherokee. Oh, I'm Choctaw. And is it really my place in Glacier national park after being paid to tell stories, to, like, educate them on that stuff? I don't want to. And is it my point to go, no, you're not. Look how you look? You don't look into me then. Basically, that's what Donald Trump said in court once, is those guys don't look into me. I don't want to be like Trump. So I once had this young lady tell me she was black feet. Rather than looking at her and going, oh no, you're from South Carolina. There's no way you're Blackfeet. Rather than try to go and lecture, I just gave her a hug and I said, welcome home if you ever want to come back someday. We're. We are here. We ain't going nowhere. And maybe that made her feel good and maybe that was the wrong thing. I don't know. But I'm a grown man. I'm not gonna tell a teenager off and tell and then bark at them. I'm just not going to. I'm a grown man.

[Angel Ellis]

I think Robert might have the most healthy response to the whole phenomenon in the world.

[Robert Jago]

He's a mellow, funny, casual dude. All of this attention that's gone to the Buffy St. Marie's and other high profile pretendions. Ultimately, I think it's misplaced. The real stories that need to be told aren't those about one by one pretendions? Since we started publishing, I've become aware of a whole other level of things people need to know about the procurement fraud, the fake native companies that are taking billions of dollars in contracts that should be going to our communities.

[Angel Ellis]

Yeah. And we've bar touched on the fake bans.

[Robert Jago]

There's a legislative side to this too. There's a bill in Canada that that's going on right now that's going to recognize as sovereign governments three different pretending nations. The bill has been derided by real first nations from across Canada. There was recently a conference to denounce it. And people have been fighting against this thing tooth and nail for years. If it goes through, it's basically a pretended and recognition act.

[Angel Ellis]

The very week that we like launched the series, Pretendians became the number one issue for indigenous nations at the fucking UN level. A forum was held on identity fraud and indigenous self determination at the United Nations Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues. And based on the research that was shared there, Pretendians are an existential threat to the survival of indigenous people. I'm serious. Our nations may not exist in the future if these fakes keep going the way they are.

[Robert Jago]

This is Abenaki chief Richard Abamshiwin from Quebec speaking at that UN meeting.

[Richard Abamshiwin]

When everyone's an Indian, no one is in my nation. My nation has dwindled down through years. We have roughly 3,200 members left in my nation. This nation that pretends who they are. They have over 5,000. Their groups are outnumbering our own people. I'm fine with someone saying that they are who they are. I don't have the right to say they're not, but I really have the right to say something. When you've stolen my language and you stole my culture, you stole my way of life and you say it's yours. This subject is coming for all nations. Although the UN Declaration states that self recognition is allowed, does it say that it's allowed for someone to steal our culture, our language, our way of life and our history? Rewrite the stories. Worse than that, they even come to us to steal our pain. The pain that our ancestors, our parents before us, have gone through. They will steal our future generations. This must be stopped. It is not good enough to say that you have the right to self recognize. This recognition belongs to our nations and only to our nations. We know who our people are. We know what we've been through. We know how much we've suffered. And we know the future of our families and the future of our people. Only we have the right to recognize our people. Thank you.

[Angel Ellis]

I'm kind of blown away that the non indigenous world is interested in this podcast.

[Robert Jago]

All the listeners who've taken part, who contributed, who've downloaded, who shared it and who've commented on it. I appreciate all of you.

[Angel Ellis]

Thank you so much for giving a shit and taking a moment to think about the life and experience of someone other than you.

[Robert Jago]

Some songs come from the heart. Some songs come from the gut. Some songs come straight from God. These songs are just made up. Yeah, they're fake songs. Fake songs we got from a robot. You see, I don't really exist. There is no band to paste. I'm showing you our hand. These are fake songs. Fake songs for show about fakers.

[Angel Ellis]

Thanks for listening to this season of Pretendians. Most companies would have zero interest in producing a show like this, but we were able to do it because of listeners just like you who become become Canada Land supporters. If you become a supporter right now, you will get access to other great shows like this ad free bonus episodes of Pretendians coming up and you will be helping to make sure we get to do this again and come back for a second season. Become a Supporter right [e-mail] join or by clicking the link in your show notes.

[Robert Jago]

Our executive producer and editor is Jesse Brown.

[Angel Ellis]

Additional production from Caleb Thompson.

[Robert Jago]

Julie Shapiro is our contributing editor.

[Angel Ellis]

Canadaland's Editor in chief is Karen Pulesi. A special thanks to Rebecca Lassard. Rebecca is the editor of the documentary Red Fever which everybody out there should go check out.

[Robert Jago]

You can listen ad free and early on Amazon music included. With Prime.

[Angel Ellis]

Thanks for listening.

[Robert Jago]

In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news, so I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner and I'm back with season three of On Drugs. And this time it's gonna get personal.

[Andrea]

I don't know who sober Jeff is.

[Angel Ellis]

I don't even know if I like that guy.

[Robert Jago]

On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts.

[Angel Ellis]

Hello, it's Giles Whittell from Tortoise.

[Robert Jago]

Welcome to the news meeting. I think the danger here is that we're not as relig relentless as we.

[Angel Ellis]

Were the first time around.

[Robert Jago]

We have to keep that up.

[Andrea]

Just one newspaper found 30,000 thousand lies or falsehoods or misleading statements during his last term. Now Trump met the moment here. Because traditional media is in crisis, we.

[Robert Jago]

Should be talking about how our reporting is getting into the hands of people and how we're building trust with those audiences. Foreign ACAST Powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Jonathan Fields]

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[Robert Jago]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere.

[Elizabeth Warren]

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[Angel Ellis]

Com.