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Priorities Podcast
'Now is the time to build bridges,' says Code for America CEO
00:25:54
The civic tech nonprofit Code for America is host…
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- [00:02]
A
Hello and welcome to State Scoop's Priorities podcast. I'm Sophia Foxoa, a reporter for statescoop. This week I interviewed Amanda Runteria, CEO of the civic nonprofit Code for America, about the moment state and local governments find themselves in when it comes to IT and digital governance. We talk about how states are keeping up with new tools like generative AI, changing federal policies for Medicaid, SNAP staff and accessibility requirements, and Code for America's upcoming annual summit in Chicago. But first, here are the biggest state IT stories of the week. A guidebook published Tuesday by the center for Long Term Cybersecurity at UC Berkeley provides a thorough look at the various state led and community led cybersecurity efforts that have grown more common in recent years. The guidebook shows that such groups like Regional Security Operations Centers and State Cyber Corps provide vast economic benefit wherever they're established. Pennsylvania governor Josh Shapiro and the Pennsylvania Department of State on Tuesday announced that the agency filed a lawsuit against character AI over its artificial intelligence powered companion chatbots impersonating medical professionals. One of the chatbots, according to the lawsuit, even provided a fake license number. Governor Abigail Spanberger last week announced she's selected David Wilkinson, a former Obama White House official, to serve in her cabinet as Virginia's chief transformation officer. In a press release, Wilkinson said he plans to deliver practical solutions on the issues that matter to Virginians. Later this week, Code for America will host its annual summit in Chicago against the backdrop of a changing landscape for state and local government IT departments. These agencies are responsible for implementing changes to Medicaid and SNAP eligibility systems to comply with new federal work requirements that go into effect next year. They're also tasked with making government websites and mobile apps more accessible, following the Department of Justice's updates to the Americans with Disabilities Act. As if that weren't enough, states are also grappling with how to quickly adopt emerging technology like generative AI with without bypassing important ethical and safety standards. Amanda Renteria, CEO of Code for America, said her best advice to states starting to tackle these issues take a deep breath and realize they've been preparing for this IT sprint since 2020.
- [02:31]
B
I have to start with taking a deep breath because so much is changing. Not only are right now state governments across the country really struggling with how am I going to adjust to these changing policies? How do I adjust with the new federal government with few fewer guidelines than they're normally used to hearing from the federal government and what do I do with all these new tools that are coming at me? We'll hear oftentimes that there's some silver bullet out there that can fix everything. And we get questions like, is that real or not? So our relationship right now as we walk into our Code for America summit is we recognize the tech is changing, government is changing, budgets are changing, and here we are getting together in the middle of the country at our CFA summit to sort of share in the space we're all living in right now.
- [03:26]
C
I think taking a deep breath is exactly what so many state and IT officials need to do right now. Because you're right, there's so much coming at them with regards to changing federal policies. I mean, the Medicaid compliance measures are coming fast in January. SNAP benefits are coming fast as well. How do you advise states to take their time so they're not implementing new tools without testing them, but also being aware of the very abbreviated timelines that they have to work with?
- [03:56]
B
Well, and that's why we started last year in building a lot of the partnerships or partnerships we've already had to say, hey, we know this is coming. Let us talk through what our policy interpretation is for the implementation and the systems you have, and then let's start testing a couple of the things, whether it was AI tools or some of the traditional tools to like clean data and get the infrastructure ready. And so the good news is there are a lot of states who started this process months ago, maybe half a year ago, really thinking about what do we need for changing policy. You know, ever since I've been here, since COVID our state partners have been on a journey of changing every single year one thing or another, recognizing they have to adjust. Whether it was to Covid or the unwinding of COVID or new policies or new administrations at the state level as well as the federal level. This has now been the treadmill that states are on. And because of that, six months ago, we had a lot of conversations in our multi state hub with our cohort states to say, how can we help to prepare? And so as we walk in now or kind of take a snapshot right now, we are seeing a lot of pilots in play. That doesn't mean they're ready to implement HR1, but it does mean we have seen time and time again new tools that are being tested in ways that are iterative, that are really thoughtful actually. But there's still this gap between do I actually put it in play and when do I need to do that, given the policy changes and the policy requirements that are coming. And so our advice often is let's figure out, figure out how to experiment together and see what we can learn, in short, pilots. And then really from that, put in place the things that are working.
- [05:47]
C
What I'm hearing from you is that over the past six years, because there's been so much upheaval and change between the pandemic, changing administrations and new compliance measures, states have kind of built up a stamina to all of these changes and are getting ready to just roll with another one of these, like, really severe changes. Is that. Do I have that right?
- [06:09]
B
You do. And at the same time, I know we're all tired, so it is like maybe I would say forced stamina, where you kind of recognize, oh, there is no plateau I'm going to reach. But instead you just kind of get used to running at the pace we're running. And I think we are, in doing that, building our stamina or has. Have built some resilience. And the good news is there are new tools, there are more partners, there are more shared best practices than even, you know, a couple of years ago. That's, I think the part that makes CFA Summit so special is that this is one moment you kind of get in community on this marathon and you're like, you tired? I'm tired. But then you're like, okay, what did you do to like, re. Re. Engage and get your energy back up?
- [06:59]
C
Like, this is amazing. I was actually just about to make a marathon metaphor, so I'm so glad you did that for me because we obviously people have friends or see people online that they register for a marathon, they train for it, and then as soon as that marathon over is over, they have that high, they're like, I need another one. I'm going to go for an ultra marathon. I'm just going to keep going and going and going and training and training. So it does feel on some level, states have been in this period of needing to constantly adapt and adjust their, their systems and their policies to an ever changing environment. And as you mentioned, some of these new tools. Before we get into some of those, those tools, I want to go back to what you said about federal guidelines. And they're not being as many as states are used to seeing. What do you think that is doing in terms of the trust and relationship between states and, and their federal partners and how do they proceed going forward, not having as many guidelines as before when they have a lot more compliance requirements?
- [08:02]
B
Yeah, that's the part, that last part is the most important part you said, which is there's a fear that they're going to have compliance Requirements without good guidance. That's the biggest fear of any state government, which is they put a plan in place, but because they didn't get any guidance and there's going to be penalties associated with compliance. That's a scary time to be in this space. Which is why community is so important. Right. What states other states are doing is a real help to figuring out what you should do in your state, how you should run this policy implementation. Because at least not only is there some shared best practices, but if the group is doing it together, then in some ways you hope that that will define policy or define compliance. And that's more of what we're seeing is states, yes, in some regard are doing a 50 state experiment and everyone's doing what they need to do in order to meet guidelines or to meet new policies. At the same time, the shared practices are really what we see a lot of leaders relying on to say, hey, if they're doing it and we're doing it, maybe that's going to meet compliance. And they're kind of checking themselves. And I think that's the part that is particularly beneficial as states come together at this moment and every year to kind of check themselves. But even more important right now when they're kind of on their own. And so it's nice to have a partner to bounce it off of. But also come six months from now, a year from now, when you put those policies in place, to know, let's say seven states did the same thing in the same way. I think, I think there's some benefit to that, some confidence that you're going to meet compliance if you were all really thinking through it together.
- [09:40]
C
Yeah, absolutely. It can be one big group project instead of everyone kind of going at it alone. I spoke with Danny Mintz at Code for America a few months ago. I think back in March about ex parte Medicaid renewals and how automation is going to play a really big role in kind of bridging the gap between all of these different new forms and work requirements for the program and for enrollees and the ability for states to kind of keep up with that high demand and that re enrollment period. Can you talk to me about some of the other tools in addition to possibly automation, AI or different digital data sharing strategies that states are trying to implement?
- [10:20]
B
Well, tell you some of the simple tools. Right. So caseworkers, we know we've always sort of sat with caseworkers on the government side and clients on the client side, of course. And what we have seen over the last Five years, five and a half years with COVID and people really using digital tools a lot more is it makes it easier to apply, but on the caseworker side it means the pile gets higher. Right. Especially if you don't have ways to really help you through in a digital way, help you through all of that casework that's coming through. And so we've done a lot of simple tools like document intelligence, where in many cases it used to be that you'd actually have to look at the driver's license or look at the form that came in and say, is that a birth certificate? Is that a driver's license? Is that a utility bill that tells you where someone lives? More and more tools like AI can help you say, actually with 99.9% confidence, this is a driver's license from the state of Texas, we are able now to make those kinds of processes faster. And so a lot of the tools on the back end that we're seeing across Civic Tech is asking those caseworkers, where are your biggest barriers? Can I put in place these tools that can help you with things that used to be manual or just harder to get through it? Can we help you with policy interpretation? Right. So when someone asks, well, am I meeting policy here? If AI can help you in real time, say this is the question. And with the new policy, this is the work requirement, let's say that somebody's going to need that actually helps you define how you help someone on the front end. And so those case worker tools are extremely important. The other piece that's really important is duplication across systems. Right. So in one state, people have to navigate on the back end, nine different systems to make sure this record is the same person. AI can actually reach across and say, actually this is the same person. So instead of having 20,000 records, there's actually 1,000. Right. So things like that on the backend that maybe nobody sees or hasn't seen, they're getting fixed. Because you do have new tech tools that can really help streamline the backend process. So even though policies are changing that might require people to submit more paperwork, we are getting to a place where there are more tools on the back end to help caseworker manage through that. Yeah. And then on the other side, we are really taking a look at client facing tools. How can we make sure that in a world where state governments are going to be very, very busy on the back end trying to figure out how to manage new application requirements, how do we make sure that people are ready with the documents they need in order to link into the system as well. And so that's a lot of the work that we're seeing also across the civic tech ecosystem.
- [13:11]
C
I'm really glad you mentioned one on the back end, tools that make caseworker loads a lot easier. Whether it's removing some of these manual like laborious tasks so they can automate a little bit more fast, whether it's of finding things more quickly that they need to verify an enrollees participation eligibility, but also on the front end because despite this happening on the back end, I think enrollees are being met with so many different, like you said, new forms, new changes, new policy requirements that they want to know that they're going to be taken care of and that their experience with the federal government or with state governments is going to be seamless. It's going to be easy. It's something they can navigate on their own. Because I think the center for Budget and Policy Priorities just came out with
- [13:58]
A
a report this week actually that said
- [14:01]
C
that millions of eligible Medicaid recipients could be kicked off not because they fail to meet the new requirements, but because they fail to navigate the systems that are in place. That can often be complicated and overburdened. How do state IT officials kind of communicate those changes and effectively present them to enrollees saying like, here's the form, this is the final version of it. This is what's going to be the one that you, that you need. And, and we're here for you.
- [14:30]
B
Yeah, you know, that's really part of the first step is awareness and notification. Right. So we have worked across the country in various ways when there's an example of like when all of a sudden a crisis happens and you need to notify people on where to go. Well, how do we do that even before the crisis happens or before the policy change happens? And the good news is because we have seen states do more proactive communication, they actually have the mechanisms to do that right now. What is hard is without clear guidelines. What are you saying? Right. I mean some things are clear, which is you're going to have to renew every six months. Right. So states can start to tell people this is no longer an annual process, this is a six month process. And we know that proactive text messaging works. We also know that a very simple language works. And so there are templates out there that states are already utilizing to let people know when like enrollment is coming, what they might need. That kind of thing is incredibly important. But we also know from our work in our early Days of building client app tools, which is our flagship Get Cal Fresh. We know that there's also a role for individuals to play. How do I make sure I go get the work right now? And to be honest, it's also empowering. Right. Like now you have some agency here. Yes. The world has changed. Yes. Policies and change. And while I might think that makes it now harder to navigate, there is a role for people to play to say, okay, now we've got to start asking your employers for this paperwork or we have to start figuring out how do you get your birth certificate for your kid to make sure you show their age. Right. So part of our understanding of this new world we're in is that no matter what we do, there is going to be more of a client burden and how do we help them prepare for it as we're helping governments be able to take that information. And so for a lot of folks coming into Code for America Summit, the world is changing in a lot of different ways. And because it's multi layered, it was important for us to make sure that we actually were having a much broader conversation than even before at summit where you are bringing in philanthropy, you are bringing, how are other countries doing this? You are bringing people who are on the front end and the back end of technology, of government. So that is what is important right now.
- [16:57]
C
I want to ask about some of the topics that you're going to be covering during the summit. But before I get that, I just have one more question. So I know the federal compliance measures were also going to take effect for ADA requirements starting this month, but that has been pushed back by a year. How do you think this is impacting state and local agencies, like trying to make their forms and digital websites and infrastructure more accessible to residents who have disabilities? But also, what do you think the delayed timeline means for some of the other social benefits that we were talking about? Medicaid, snap? Do you think those programs could possibly be delayed too and give states a longer Runway to work with?
- [17:38]
B
It's a very good question and one that kind of been asking from the very beginning, which is there's always that factor of delay, or at least when you have such big changes, there's the factor of delay. And our advice here is even, well, this is true with the ADA compliance rules, which is we were on the forefront being like, this is how you can change it so that they would be ready for it. And then of course, it gets delayed. The reality is those changes are still really important for the clients they're serving. And so the idea of being on a path to making those changes is incredibly important because you're ahead of the curve, and now you're not rushing at the end. I do think it's possible that SNAP or worker requirements get delayed or some of these big changes get delayed, but the path is being set to get there. And so what we often say to states is, prepare for what's to come. And in fact, one of the things we've learned at code, or at least I feel like I've learned in my time at Code for America, is that this is the new norm. Things are going to be changing, whether they're a year from now, whether they're delayed for another year. What we have seen over the last five and a half years since COVID really, is every year is requiring government to react and adapt to a new thing that's happening. And. And so we do know, even if it's delayed, SNAP and Medicaid have already changed. People and systems behind the scenes are already preparing for a new renewal because some of these changes might be delayed. But we know not all of them are likely to be delayed.
- [19:14]
C
So states and IT officials, they should just keep their heads down and keep working on this, because whether it's happening, you know, next year, starting in January 2027 or possibly January 2028, and the changes are coming, and so the sooner they can get to them, the better.
- [19:30]
B
That's right. And you don't want to be caught off guard, right? You want to be in control. One of the things we talk about is you want to be in control of that timing. So, heck, if you have another year to then get it right, you can go forward if you're ready, or you can wait. And I think that's the real hope right now for a lot of states is just being in control of these moments allows you to then deliver well. And when you feel like you are just chasing, that's really, really hard to do. And so our hope is. And six months ago, when we got together with our different cohort of states, that was our way of thinking about it, which is, how do we make sure you're ready for whatever might come? And so you do things like cleaning your data, right. You do things like, what are the bumps we have right now that we can smooth out so we don't have to deal with that while change is happening. That's part of the good news about people moving forward. Um, even if there might be a delay.
- [20:24]
C
Mm. I think it's. You're absolutely right. It's implementing some of these best practices now so you're not rushed on a timeline or you're already on the path there. Tell me about more about the upcoming Code for America summit happening in Chicago. What are some of the topics that you're focusing on in a time of such change and tumult? You said you're bringing in a lot of community leaders, you're bringing in people from other countries to look at how they're navigating this changing it world. What are you guys going to be talking about?
- [20:51]
B
So every year is different. I feel like no one summit has ever been the same. And this one is symbolically different for a lot of different, both symbolically and in reality different for a couple of different ways. One, we're doing it in the Midwest and our idea was now is the time to build bridges across the country, not just beyond the coast, but really bring people together. And secondly, in a new place for a new time. And so it's the first time we're going to be in Chicago. We're in the middle of the country. And it's not, of course, lost on me when we think of major changes in the country like the industrial revolution that really came out of the mechanization or at that time, modernization and technology that changed the way people moved around the country in many ways. I think the time we are in right now feels a little like those beginning days of what was going to happen to a automobile industry that built the middle class. It also left people behind. How do we get our shot at doing this much better than then learning the lessons. But what I do know is in order to do it right, we need to widen the circle to bring people within the civic community, plus to figure out what this new world should look like. So that's why I am excited to see philanthropy have a conversation there, really talk about what they're seeing, to see other countries, how they navigated the system and where are they today in this globalized transition of technology and civic tech, even in their countries, and really kind of putting it together in a way that is also tangible, talking about real pilots that are actually happening in states and cities across the country. Because I think it's as important to think big about what the future is going to be, but also to ground it in real things that are happening that are helping people today. So I am excited to get together because I don't know if I think back to history, I think of those moments where the folks who are actually building the foundation of what will change, that's Technology, that's technology plus government that is going to be in that room. So I'm both inspired and feel a deep sense of responsibility to get this summit right.
- [23:13]
C
Well, it sounds like you're on the right track. I want to go back to something you said about being on the brink, like we're on the cusp of the next technology advancement. Are you talking about, I have to assume you're talking about artificial intelligence.
- [23:28]
B
Sure, I'm talking about artificial intelligence coming at a time where governments are also in transition. I mean, huge measures of scale. Right. We used to say government and technology together is really can change people's lives at scale. Both are opening up in different ways.
- [23:43]
C
What do you think states or what do you hope state and IT local IT leaders will come away from the summit learning that there's a whole community
- [23:53]
B
in support of this idea that technology should be used to help people. I think coming from Silicon Valley, sometimes the word we get from technology is it's move fast and break things. And I think there's that deep sense of worry and concern that that's all what technology is about. And this is a group of people coming together who know that it can be different, who know that you can do technology for people first. Just being in that kind of room is inspiring and gives you strength to continue to know that you're not alone. When you're out there being like, wait a second, why are we using this tool? Is it the right tool to help people? That's really important. The second thing is I think sometimes government feels like a place, or at least right now, like it's broken. And to bring people together to say, we're in it with you to fix it, we're in it with you to find those opportunities. Even in this time where it feels extremely unsettling, we're here to help. Whether that's technologists, whether that's philanthropists, whether that's people in other countries doing the same thing, whether it's community based organizations. I think it's important that these government leaders understand that we know there's a way forward that can help government be the kind of place I think we can all be proud of.
- [25:20]
A
Thank you to Amanda Renteria for participating in that conversation. You can subscribe to the priorities podcast@prioritiespodcast.com
- [25:28]
C
and wherever you get your podcast.
- [25:29]
A
While you're there, be sure to leave a review or rating on the podcast page. That extra step helps more people like you find the show. This podcast is a production of Scoop News Group in Washington, D.C. adam Butler and Carlin Fisher put it together. Until next week, I'm Sophia Foxoell. Thanks for listening.