A (3:22)

Yes, let's take a moment to give a shout out to our Startup Nation superhero featured in this episode, who is Earl Lewis? Earl recently relocated from New Jersey to Florida and started following the private practice startup last year as he needed some direction and inspiration with private practice tips and encouragement as well. He listened to our podcast, read our blogs. He said he got a lot of inspiration and strategies to be able to relocate his practice. And he said whether you're in grad school, thinking of starting up a private practice, or already established and wanting to take it to the next level, definitely follow the private practice startup. So Earl, we just wanted to give you a shout out. Thank you for the love and positive feedback. If you guys want to share a review or rating with us on Facebook or in our Google business account, that would be amazing and we would love to feature you as our Startup Nation superhero. Now let's take a quick break from our sponsor. Today's episode is sponsored by Gusto. If you're in private practice, you definitely wear a lot of hats. And some of those hats are totally cool. But some like filing taxes, running payroll for example, not so great. That's where Gusto comes in. They make payroll taxes and HR actually easy for small businesses. Fast, simple payroll processing, benefits, and expert HR support all in one place. Gusto automatically pays and files for your federal, state and local taxes so you don't have to worry about it. Plus, they make it easy for you to add on health benefits and even 401ks for your team. Let them wear one of your many hats. You have better things to focus on in your business and in your Personal life as well. Listeners get three months for free when they run the first payroll. Try a demo and see for yourself@gusto.com pps as in the private practice startup. That's gusto.com pps. All right, let's dive in. Michael, what's up?

B (5:12)

Welcome.

C (5:13)

Hey, welcome. Thank you so much for having me.

A (5:15)

We're excited to have you here.

B (5:17)

We are. And we got to actually meet Michael face to face, just like Gordon and Hillary at our little Asheville pop up meetup. So it was really awesome to be able to meet you face to face. And I was just sharing with Gordon. It's not very usual that we get to meet someone face to face first and then they're on our podcast. It's most often we're meeting them online for the first time. So it was such a pleasure to be able to do that and meet you face to face.

C (5:38)

Yeah, absolutely. In this virtual world, that's usually the trend that it goes. So, yeah, it was great to meet you all too. And thanks so much for hosting that get together. It was a lot of fun.

B (5:47)

Yeah. So I'm sure many people are wondering, like, how. What's your story on how you went from therapist to coaching consultant?

C (5:54)

Yeah, so it's, you know, like many other people, kind of a longer story, but the short version is that in undergrad I had a strong interest in industrial organizational psychology, which for folks that don't know, is basically the psychology of business and systems. And so when I got out of undergrad, you know, I was looking to move into the consulting world and so worked in corporate world for about a year and realized I wanted to take kind of a deeper dive into human development and went back and got a counseling degree and then became licensed and practiced for a number of years in various contexts, which I can talk about, and then still had this interest in systems and business, and so made the shift a number of years ago kind of back into that world in the context of training, executive coaching, leadership development, team development. And that's the world that I'm in now. And, you know, I see so much relevance between the two because it's essentially just about understanding similar things that we do in therapy, about motivations and shadows and insecurities and communication styles and a number of other things that are so relevant in both worlds.

A (6:59)

Very cool.

B (7:00)

And who are your clients overall?

C (7:03)

So the clients that we have are, the commonality that they share is leadership. And so that could be a leader of a small business, it could be a leader of a team or multiple Teams, it could be a leader within the context of a large organization. And so our clients kind of run the gamut from Fortune 500 company to a small business in western North Carolina. But the commonality is always leadership.

B (7:28)

Interesting. And how do your clients find you?

C (7:32)

Well, given, I mean, the business is relatively new. And so like with many businesses, that's, that's the mystery to unpack, I think is creating a clear funnel for that which we're continuing to develop. But some online via Google search, a lot of referral. We know that people do business with those that they know like and trust. And so I think that that applies just as much in the consulting and coaching industry as it does in any other industry. So word of mouth referral is a big piece for us as well.

B (8:04)

Gotcha. And I'm really curious to understand. Like a lot of times I kind of sometimes see like business owners as like parents. It's kind of like, hey, my kids, the issue here's, here's my kid, fix my kid and let me know when they're good, I'll drop them off. And so I think a lot of times this is my assumption, you can totally tell me if I'm wrong. But sometimes that business owners are kind of like the problem is the staff, the team, the employees. Like when people are calling about an issue with their company, what do they usually present with?

C (8:32)

Yeah, so it makes me think of a couple different things. One is I was just on a call two days ago with a new client and this is a call that I've had many times with various clients over the years. But exactly your question, exactly the scenario you pose, which is, you know, we've got these employees that we want to develop. You know, can you work with them? And the answer is usually one of two things. Either one, you know, we need to work with leadership in order to enhance, understand what the problem of the system is. Right. Just like you would with a parent and a child. Right. In addition to that, just like with therapy, the initiative from the individual and the buy in from the individual is such a huge predictor of success and outcome. So when you're looking at a coaching scenario, if I get what we call a sponsor, which would be the person paying for the service, like the organizational leader, the sponsor says, I want you to work with Mr. Smith, our employee, you know, if Mr. Smith isn't bought into coaching, I'll actually tell the potential client that's a poor way to spend your money because we're not going to get the results that you want. Alternatively, if an employee is very invested in their own development and very invested in the coaching process, then it's a great fit. So again, very similar to the therapy process.

B (9:47)

Very cool.

A (9:48)

Yeah.

B (9:48)

What do you notice are some similarities between consulting and therapy?

C (9:53)

Well, so I think, you know, not to go outside of my wheelhouse because, you know, I'm pretty arc integrated is pretty specific in that, you know, we, we are experts in leadership communication, emotional intelligence, and even within leadership, the specificity of the psychology of leadership. And so I, I say that because, you know, we're not the people that go to if there's a marketing or a finance or a, you know, org structure question. So when you say what's the commonality? I'm speaking directly to kind of this business psychology piece as it relates to therapy. But within that, I think presence is a huge commonality. I think looking at people's histories and beliefs and patterns is a big commonality. One of the ones that I find very interesting in the context of leadership and team development is boundary setting. So I see that as a really common factor as it relates to therapy. So those are just a few examples.

B (10:55)

Gotcha. And obviously you made the shift completely into consulting and coaching. And a lot of times I hear therapists wanting to do coaching, I think for several reasons, right? Like the ability to serve more people, people, whether online and not having to stay within state boundaries. And I think sometimes there's like a misnomer, like, well, if I do coaching, then it's going to be easier, but still they have to build a business. Right. And so what are some of the shifts that you've had to come against or face as you've like completely moved into coaching solely?

C (11:29)

Yeah, I think. Well, it's funny because it's, you know, the coaching profession is a little bit kind of the wild, wild west out there. Like, it's for better and for worse. There's much less parameter than there is in the therapy world. You know, you've got the four main divisions, you know, psychology, marriage and family therapy, social work and counseling, that are pretty highly regulated. Right. By state. Coaching is not like that. And so navigating the complexities of, you know, certification or not, accreditation or not. And so I think that's a piece that I've navigated. And then in addition to that, just like a therapy practice, getting really clear on what the niche is and working towards a clear marketing funnel and practice and continuing to get out there and expose the business in various ways. So I think just like any business.

A (12:22)

Those challenges exist for those who are interested in making that transition from therapy to coaching and really want to focus on that. What are some of the, whether it's certifications or trainings that you have found really helpful in terms of your own journey that you would recommend?

C (12:38)

Yeah, that's a great question. So, you know, one of the resources that people don't know about it is called the icf, the International Kosher Federation. And what's interesting about them is that they're kind of following the same trajectory as the four main disciplines within mental health. And what I mean by that is that they've moved toward this kind of tiered certification process that's very similar to getting licensed. And so it's, you know, a certain amount of practice hours that you have to log and turn in a test that you have to take, and, you know, continuing education that you have to get education you have to get prior to the test. So process wise, it's. It's pretty similar. There are three levels of accreditation within the ICF that you can. You can get, and it's basically just based on experience and education, also similar to the licensure process for many states out there. So I would say that's a great resource for folks. And the other thing that I found really valuable in my journey is getting certified in tools that I knew would be helpful for the clients that I want to serve. For instance, one of the tools I'm certified in, Advanced Insights Profile, is a profile that looks at communication style, major motivation style, and then basic workplace psychology. And so it fits really well with the kind of client that we serve, along with a number of the other tools that I've gotten certified in. And so that would be another recommendation is if you want to dive into coaching in a serious way, consider what's the population you want to work with? And are there tools out there that you might get accredited in using with that population or workshops or continuing ed that you might do? Because the other advantage of that is that with the ICF certification, you can accrue hours over the course of time based on these various trainings, and then once you have enough, submit for certification.

A (14:33)

Awesome. I appreciate you sharing those resources. And it also makes me curious, as you've made that transition, what are some of the biggest challenges that you faced in terms of building this whole online coaching business? And were you in brick and mortar before or were you doing an online therapy practice before?

C (14:50)

Yeah, that's a good. That's a good question. So the independence of my business, let's say, is only about 4 years old. And so it's only been a year and a half that I decided to make this total change of only doing coaching and training and development for businesses. And so, you know, I'm still relatively new in that. And so I rebranded and did that about a year and a half ago. And four years ago when I started the business, I was doing therapy, coaching and consulting, which, you know, like, for many people, the challenge of niching down was there for me. And I realized that that was a big challenge, that was a big issue. So that's part of the reason I kind of let go of the therapy as an aspect of my business. So, yeah, I'm in my office right now. I have a brick and mortar. I see clients in person for the coaching practice, and I see them virtually.

A (15:42)

Oh, awesome. So you do a little bit of both then?

C (15:44)

Yeah, yeah. And I really enjoy that, that blend.

B (15:47)

So do they come to you or do you go on site or a mixture of both.

C (15:51)

Yeah, that's great. So it's both, actually. So I have clients come to my office weekly. And then, you know, I've got like, for instance, I've got a new client in Charlotte, and so I'm heading, which is a couple hours from here, so I'm heading there next week to meet with a number of folks on their team. And it can be various scenarios like that. Another example was we had a group from Texas come here earlier last year that constituted of a bunch of different individuals from their HR department that flew to Charlotte and we all met there and did a training for a number of days. And so it can look like they come to us, it can look like we go to them, it can look virtual. It's pretty flexible.

B (16:33)

That's cool. And do you make determinations or recommendations sometimes based off like, do you do the assessments first and kind of see what's happening or how does your process go?

C (16:43)

I guess, yeah, that's great. So in my opinion, the best practice for a process, and this is pretty common to kind of consulting in general, is to first do an evaluation. So I can kind of a survey of what does the lay of the land look like, what are the problems? And that could be done via a survey that we create. It could be done through a series of interviews. And so it's a data collection period. And so what we find is that, you know, organizations kind of like the example you gave earlier, Kate, about, you know, the leader comes and says, we want to develop the employee. So sometimes we find that an organizational leader might have an idea of what they want to develop, that isn't actually the root problem. Doing that evaluation on the front end allows us to determine the problem. And then usually it's a process of assessments of individuals or groups, trainings that follow those assessments, and then ongoing coaching with identified key stakeholders.

B (17:43)

Very cool. And so does that sometimes especially become, like, virtual or in the office and stuff like that, rather than working with the whole team or.

C (17:51)

Absolutely, yeah. So it can be. Yeah, it can be virtual, and it could be working with the whole team, depending on the size. So we've. We've done both of those scenarios as well.

B (18:00)

Cool. So I'm sure people are also probably wondering about, like, how do you price your services and how did you figure all that out and how does that work?

C (18:08)

Yeah, it's so interesting. I was just having that conversation recently with someone, and we were kind of laughing because when it comes to coaching and training, the price structures are so wildly different. And I'm sure you all probably. Probably see this as well. And so I think as far as best practices, it's a matter of if people are interested in kind of exploring this for themselves. I would say look at the services that you're delivering and try and interview as many people as possible that are also delivering similar services to get a sense of what the average is. And then I think part of it is just a matter of kind of deciding. There's certainly a mindset piece here, and I'm sure you all have talked about this in various podcasts, the mindset of what is your worth. And so I think that's a big component that comes into pricing in addition to what the market will bear, which can come from interviewing various folks that are kind of doing similar things. And so I think that's the case for coaching and for training work.

B (19:11)

Yeah. And again, just the same message throughout. Right. Throughout. Whatever it is that you're doing or business is your value and really understanding that as well as the market research. So talking to people and speaking to them and seeing what's happening. I'm just curious, like, for example, like, if a team, you know, needs help with communication, what's like an example of something that you would do with them?

C (19:33)

Yeah, that's a great question. So, yeah, we. And that's actually a scenario that I've tackled a number of times. And so it depends on how invested the organization or business or team is. And so one scenario that we've. That we've had happen a number of times is that, you know, they'll want to start out with just A single day or two to three day training and I've got a custom communication team training that we deliver. And so what that, what that involves is doing assessments with each individual to determine their communication style and then delivering that training over the course of a day or three, kind of depending on availability and you know, pricing and budget of the organization. So yeah, that's a pretty common scenario. And the other scenario would be if an organization is really invested in again finding the root problem, it might be an evaluation, a training and then ongoing coaching. So one of the stats that you all appreciate, and you may have heard this before, but when you think about productivity, so when you go to a productivity training, let's say typically the results people get from that is about a 20% increase. If you combine training with coaching, what do you think the return on investment goes up to percentage wise? What do you think?

B (20:53)

I'm going to say 80%. That's my guess.

C (20:56)

That's it.

B (20:57)

Oh, is it 80%?

A (20:58)

Ding, ding, ding, ding. You got it.

B (21:00)

See what happens, Kate, when you don't jump in, take a chance.

C (21:06)

That's great, that's great. And we could be off a couple percentage points. But the point is, and I think you could say this with any kind of training that you go to, when you combine it with follow up and accountability and a support person, the return is going to be enormous. And so there's a lot of data around how combining training and coaching is really efficacious.

B (21:26)

Very cool. I had one other question for you and I know that we have a hard stop today just because technology got in the way. So it's not as free flowing as usually the that we like it. I guess one of the things is for therapists who are bridging the gap between counseling and coaching, you know, like legally, ethically, what's important to know in that arena so you stay safe with your license.

C (21:48)

Yeah, well, I'll give the disclaimer that I'm certainly not a lawyer and can't speak with that kind of elegance. But as far as my own experience, you know, I think really having a good understanding first, some of this may just require some thinking. Like how can you as a therapist define the difference of what is it like to deliver therapy services and what is it like to deliver coaching services? So I think just having that front end thinking is really important. You know, from another ethical standpoint, you know, there's obviously state line restrictions in a lot of states as far as practicing goes. So I know that some states you can't practice across state lines or your client needs to be living in the state or, you know, that's all dependent upon state, but I think that's a really important consideration. And then, you know, obviously with coaching, there's a lot more flexibility. And so I think, you know, deciding what is it about coaching or therapy that you really like I think is a really important question for folks to ask and that might help them determine, you know, is one or the other the right fit for them.

A (22:57)

And if you're considering transitioning or straddling that line and trying to do the both. And with the coaching and the therapy, we have an episode for you to go back and listen to if you haven't already listened to episode number 105 with Christy Westerfield, where she talks about the legal documents you need when starting an online coaching business. And she talks a lot about the legalities around this and how to separate the two. And she is actually an attorney, so we have that inside scoop with her and she's a great resource for that.

C (23:24)

Wow. I'm going to listen to that. That's great.

A (23:26)

Yeah.

B (23:27)

What's really good. And she really talks about if you are doing a coaching practice, to have two separate companies, you know, two separate paperworks to just really make it clean so there won't be any worries about your license and your ethics and what you're attempting to do. And also if you're a therapist, is really understanding that if you're doing coaching, it's not therapy. And really making that distinction through your documentation as well as your communication with clients and not slipping into the therapy aspect that we can do so well. Even like at a cockt. Hanging out with people.

C (23:57)

Yeah. You know, to give an example, one of the things I've had to do is, you know, in that vetting process of clients, since I've stopped practicing as a therapist, is to refer out. And so I think that's another really important consideration to make. Is, are you. Are you. If you're entering into this kind of dual world, are you comfortable in making a referral out if you determine this is actually a therapy client, not a coaching client? So, yeah, really having that strong vetting process is important.

B (24:24)

Right. And then not going back and forth.

C (24:26)

Right.

B (24:26)

Like, if it's a therapy client, it's always a therapy client. It's a coaching client's always a coaching client. So that's really important.

C (24:31)

Absolutely.

B (24:32)

So, Michael, you. You have a giveaway for our audience. Will you share what that is?

C (24:38)

I do, yeah. So if people go to arkintegrated.combook and arc integrated. Arc integrated.combook. they can get a free workbook that I developed, which is kind of an accompanying tool to the book I'm releasing this year, which is called Changes. And it's observations from my career as a therapist, a consultant and a coach around how people effectively and ineffectively create change in their life. And it works through seven life dimensions that I've seen be great predictors of success and again, failure. And so yeah, so this workbook that is available for the audience, they can go download it for free, works through these seven domains and I found it to be a great tool to use with clients. I think that, you know, any, anybody that's listening to therapists could use the questions in the workbook as ones to consider with clients to help them work through how are they holistically tackling the challenges that they have in their life. So yeah, I think it'd be a great resource for folks.

B (25:37)

Awesome. Well, we really appreciate that and of course we will put that on the show notes page for your guys ease and convenience. And Michael, what do you want our audience to take away from your message today?

C (25:48)

Yeah, I think there's so much opportunity out there that is often, I can think, not considered. We have these really wonderful educations as therapists that apply to so much. They apply to business, they apply to teamwork, and of course they apply to individual and family development. And so I would just encourage people to really be proud of what they understand and don't take for granted what they know and how it can be applicable to so many other industries should they be interested in exploring what else is out there.

B (26:23)

Cool. Well, thank you so much for sharing your specialty and what you do. And I'm sure it's helpful for some therapists to really understand what they're getting involved in regarding coaching, consulting, where do they want to be and just at least pose some questions to really think about as well as next steps if they're really diving more into the coaching world. So we really appreciate your perspective, your experience and sharing that with our audience. And definitely in March and thereafter, of course, is check out Michael's book. It sounds really awesome. I can't wait to check it out myself. Maybe you will send us an autographed copy.

C (26:56)

I'll absolutely do that.

A (26:57)

That would be amazing. We would so appreciate that. Yes. I just wanted to say it's so awesome to have you here on the podcast. We appreciated you and all the tips that you shared today. It was so nice meeting you in person and if you guys are listening. And you're going to be attending whether you've registered or you haven't registered yet for the not your typical psychotherapist conference that's happening in California in May. Ernesto Segames Mundo is putting that on and there's a ton of practice builders, including ourselves, that are going to be there. We would love to be able to connect with you in person when we schedule our pop up networking event, wherever that's going to be. And I just wanted to give a little shout out to encourage you guys to register if you have not already. We'd love to see you there.

C (27:38)

I look forward to seeing you all there as well.

B (27:40)

Woohoo.

A (27:41)

Oh cool.

B (27:41)

You're gonna go.

C (27:42)

I'm gonna be a presenter.

B (27:44)

Oh, sweet.

A (27:46)

That's exciting.

C (27:47)

Yeah, yeah, that's gonna be great. Look forward to hanging out with you guys.

A (27:50)

That is fantastic. We get to hang out again in person. That's so cool.

B (27:55)

So good. So guys, join us next time as we host Emily Clark. And Emily Clark is one of Laura Long's badasses and that she is. She is going to be talking about be unapologetically authentic to fill your practice with the clients you adore. And Emily really is super authentic. It's super cool that she loves unicorns. Just saying. Join us for that podcast as we talk about that and really dive in. And if you want to hang out with us, check us out on Facebook, find the Private Practice startup and request to join the group and we will see you there. Don't forget to check out the Show Notes page for the tips, resources and giveaway from today's show and we hope you guys have an inspired day. Thank you so much for allowing us to inspire you and serve you from startup to mastery. Have an awesome day, Startup Nation. We'll see you later.

A (28:39)

See you next time. Thanks for joining us on the Private practice startup. Visit theprivatepracticestartup.com for awesome resources, free trainings, attorney approved private practice paperwork, and so much more. Sam.